#1 Julie Gould: The 4 P's: Passion, Pets, People and Photography

Lynn:   0:02
welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now here's your host, Lynn Kearns. Hi, everybody. Welcome to my first podcast with Julie Gould. This is Len Corns with creative spirits unleashed, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. This conversation with Julie happened through serendipity. Julie is a genius behind the camera with dogs, and she also happens to be a leader in the world of putting people into affordable homes. Those serendipitous events led to her coming to mystic waters for a couple of days to take pictures of my dog, water, skiers and so forth. And at the end of the time she was here, I said, Let's sit down and start my podcast So that's what we did So many of the events that led up to this. It happened over 20 years, and I won't spoil it for you. But we do talk about some of those in this conversation. We cover a lot of ground here, everything from what it takes to catch the spirit of a dog in a photo or, frankly, any other animal for that matter and we also cover her passion for helping people lift themselves out of poverty. So one of the interesting things while she was here, she had the new iPhone 11 and it motivated me to get one, because when she was there at Mystic Waters, what I noticed is she always had her camera ready for catching those moments. And as a result, she caught a lot of moments that were sort of a not staged moments with our dogs and with our people. So now that I've watched her do that and I've gotten that better camera on the iPhone 11 my pictures have actually gone up in quality several lodges. She even hopped in the boat and had never taken pictures of water skiers where we're moving very quickly and got some amazing pictures even of our highest level skiers. She got an angle with me driving the boat with Austin, able our ski pro behind my head while I was driving. And I was thrilled with that because I kind of know he's up there. But I'm always looking forward, and it was really cool to see how far up on the boat he gets and also just what a good photographer she was to know how to capture those moments. It takes some practice with water skiers, and she's a true pro. She figured out how to do it very quickly. So who is Julie Goal? Well, she she has two on core businesses, and we talk about what an encore business is. In the interview, she is the principle of Jay Gould, consultant in Washington, D. C. Which is a nationally recognized housing and community development leader with extensive experience in financial lending, product and technology solutions for low income people and communities. I happen to live in an area like Lord North Carolina, where we have a complete dirt of affordable housing, and when you don't have it, you realize why you need it. It's really a gift that we have people like Julie in this world who are helping create affordable housing for people who have low income. Prior to that, she spent many years as the president of the Mercy Loan Fund for Mercy Housing, engages in a wide array of affordable real estate and health care financing leading up to her time with mercy housing. She spent 20 years at Fannie Mae working on the multi family front, supporting affordable housing lenders, CDF Eyes, which is a community development, financial institutions and community development banks and developers in creating housing for people on the lower end of the income scale. She has also following her passion for photography with her second encore business with Bright eyes photos. And that name is very deliberate, as you will hear in the conversation. She is a lifelong dog owner, and her dogs were frequently found in the halls of nursing homes, giving joy to people who love companionship. One of my favorite stories in our conversation is about the serendipitous meeting involving a sight hound. It's really, really interesting. So there was so much to learn in this conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And if you do, please, it would help me atone if you would give it a writing, it subscribe, so others confined it to thank you very much and enjoy the conversation. Julie, welcome to the podcast,

Julie:   4:42
Lynn, Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be your inaugural guest. I

Lynn:   4:46
know. I can't believe it were taken advantage of what turned out to be a phenomenal photo shoot with are animals.

Julie:   4:53
Yes. Well, you know, you know my name when I started my encore business is pets and their people. Okay, so I think we've gotten dogs, cats, all variations of people with cats, and I'm very excited.

Lynn:   5:11
So when you say on core business, tell me what that means.

Julie:   5:16
Well, what that means for May is that I couldn't make money doing my passion, which is photography and specifically dog photography. When I graduated from college and graduate school in urban planning. So, um, I had a way until I could afford Thio do something. That was my passion, actually. Two passions, dogs and photography, right to do it together s So that's what makes it worthwhile and so special now because I waited 30 years to come back to it, and through it,

Lynn:   5:57
I was stunned at your gift. Like the level of pictures that you were getting yesterday. I have to admit we had some good dogs. Was our daughter. Where are dogs? Not cooperative. Yes, Arena and Jennifer's Dog Smalls. And like, we got every picture we wanted, you know, like within 30 minutes, every set up we had, like, we tried their boat shots. Where the dogs were jumping off the dock

Julie:   6:27
off the dock is it's just fabulous when you get them for in the air. That's what I call it for in the air Hole. Paws are flying.

Lynn:   6:36
Yeah, they were totally doing that. And I was just thinking with your own core business. So people, pets, photography people really has.

Julie:   6:44
It could be three piece. Yeah,

Lynn:   6:46
so about by Encore. What you really we're talking about is that you're on core of your life, like, yeah, I'm car compassion, You said P. There's 1/4 paid passion, passion, passionate people. Photography.

Julie:   6:59
Yes, that's it. Be that could be my logo. But my name that I chose for the businesses Bright eyes focus and because I love the photograph eyes yeah, and the eye's air so special, You know, we have a light in our eyes and those air called catch lights. So my favorite thing to d'oh is to catch the catch lights of an animal, and you have to get them in all different positions to make sure that you get those catch lights because that's what makes them smile

Lynn:   7:42
right well, and that's when you see their soul. Yes, yes, because I was noticing you were every which way, like you were on the ground. You were standing on chairs. You were leaning up against the boat. You were catching every angle you're catching. There we go with funny play on words again, catching to get catch. Like to get this old. Yes, yes, And I could see that. And then the other thing that blew me was you showed up and you had all these noisemakers.

Julie:   8:09
Yes, Yes, Well, well, the secret, Their suit too. Secret tricks to dog photography specifically. And those are noisemakers. But use them sparingly and all different ones because, like with my train whistle, that will work one or two times. But then you have to use the kazoo because it makes a whole different noise. Because dogs are very sensitive listeners, their ears are very sensitive. And so noisemakers were well. But the 2nd 1 is usually a winner all the time. And those treats?

Lynn:   8:51
Yeah, I was glad we had some treats.

Julie:   8:53
We have to have special treats. Like when I go on a photo shoot, I bring a tube of peanut better peanut. Mother's really good. Also, I bring Vienna sausages cut. Yeah, Yeah, Very good. And cheese cubes, right? Does reserve winners

Lynn:   9:10
those air high dollar truths? Yes, I yes, I've learned. If you try to give a dog like the normal kibble what they eat every day, they'll only do a little bit for you. But if you give them a high dollar treat like a cheese cheese cube or Vienna sausage something super duper repeated. But it really works of my dog. Yeah, she's super happy about that.

Julie:   9:33
Yeah, Yeah, they'll smile for you.

Lynn:   9:35
Well, and all of our dogs were smiling the cat, even while the captain has mustache. You got him before he for you, Jennifer. She was holding a cat that didn't want to be held. But we were talking this morning about one of your more serendipitous photo shoots. And I wanna dig into that a little bit about the connection between Greece side hounds and your your photography. Say that's telling that story because we want to save that for the podcast. Did the depths of the serendipity?

Julie:   10:08
Yes. Well, Thio, just start out. Um my I was contacted by an and where she found me on Google and so and found me on Google. And then she told me the story that a Greek woman was living in Doha and rescued Solu Keys, which is a sight hound in the same family as a Greyhound. And she rescued these three solu keys, took them back to happens and then rescued them by sending them to a U. S based nonprofit called Side Hounds Underground. And they're on the East Coast, and they were able to place these looky dogs with owners all up and down the East Coast and an who's now my friend and I was able to rescue just out and Giselle that was so she settled into her pack. There's another knock, their name Elway's, who was rescued from Port Rico after Hurricane Maria. And so this woman just has a gift with rescue dogs and the woman in Athens. Dimitra recently contacted her. This is a year later and said, I've got to come over and reunite with Giselle because Giselle, when I put her in her crate in the hold of an airplane, she was whimpering and crying, and I promised her that I would come and see her, make sure she doesn't have

Lynn:   11:58
her to think about that for, you know, playing. Not knowing where it was going.

Julie:   12:03
Yeah. Yeah. So? So she fulfilled her promise and and wanted me to photograph their reunion. The reunion of Dimitra and Giselle. So I was so touched to be able to do this. Um, And mice, serendipitous connections are. I went to high school in Greece when my dad was in the navy, and he later served in Saudi Arabia, where he adopted a TSA. Lukey.

Lynn:   12:32
So your country and the fact that you even knew what a salute he was, which I had never heard of. I didn't even know what a science waas so tell described what aside how

Julie:   12:42
this Well aside, hound. I've learned since meeting Giselle and later Pierrot. And I can tell you about seeing a peer of the solu key. Um aside, Hound operates. Their brain operates through their eyes, not their ears. I was describing earlier about the noisemakers. They're so effective because of the sensitivity of a dog's ear. Swell in the sight hound in a smoky and a greyhound. They upright mainly, uh, through there. Site. So it's vision, vision, not nose like a bloodhound. No, no.

Lynn:   13:24
For years like almost every other dog, right? Well, I think my daughter, I think my dog has more sight Hound things we play a game was seen it when it's raining and she has a lot of energy. I will tell her I'm gonna hide the ball and then she has to go find it. And Xena listens for my footsteps and then goes to wherever she heard me stop first and looks for the ball. I did the same thing with my sister's dog, who's a golden and golden zehr, obviously much more nose driven. Yes, eso Levi just immediately started sniffing and he just followed the trail. The nose trail, which meant he had to go a lot further casinos. We'll try to work out a puzzle. She's like, I don't want to have to follow all those those drills. I just want to go straight to it, and I'm pretty sure she stopped right about here, so I have to trick her. I'll go stop like five different places, stuff like that, because that game gets old really fast in the rain. If I don't keeper challenge, yeah,

Julie:   14:24
that's it. She's gotta have seen us. Gonna have some sight side hounding her

Lynn:   14:28
because she really does look. And then eventually her nose will come into play. But like when I throw a treat on the floor and sometimes she can't find it, she's looking and I'll literally site is Rosina. Use your nose and she'll start smelling. And then she finds the tree. SmarTone shots are so smart. Whole sentences. She works in whole sentences. So you were telling me you're gonna write a blogger about this story?

Julie:   14:51
Exactly. Yes. I thought I did. Said that's a entry to get back into blogging because I started blogging. But then I got so busy setting up the rest of my business because, you know, I learned that it's not just about taking photos, okay, this in a vision, right? And then you have to plan your website. Then you have to actually do your website. And even though I hired a designer to to do my website, I had to write it all. So So you're in the middle of it, and really, your website is your calling card. It is today. Yeah, so

Lynn:   15:31
especially for a photographer, your visual arts.

Julie:   15:34
So you have to know they have to be able to look at your work and say, OK, that's the That's the style I like. That's the of the way, Uh, I want to see my dog

Lynn:   15:46
Exactly. And I remember looking at some of your pictures and wondering, How did you do that? Now I have a little bit better understanding. You haven't gone through it. But what's interesting is we were when we were talking about riding and we were talking about inspiration. So what is your inspiration for writing a block like? There was definitely serendipity and talking about this story. But what gets you what? Get your fingers moving across the keyboard?

Julie:   16:12
Well, that's a tough one for me because I'm so visual. But I would say that this blawg is that it will have written part of it, but most of it. I'm gonna tell this story to be visual. And, yeah, it's Lynn. That's really why I liked our time here these last two days, because we've been telling a story, and that's the story of Xena's life of your life. And this is how it ISS. So it's not just one photo, it's It's what I call the documentary. It's a documentary Eso Really? Primarily, my style is documentary, so yeah, so I like to photograph what's happening, what's going on in the moment and what's

Lynn:   17:02
natural. Yeah, So it's interesting because this is the story. I'm living all the time, so it's a little bit like I'm efficient water. Like I don't even know the water. This is your first time here, and you've been just following me around with this camera. So I'm gonna ask a question. I'm not sure what the answer is, but what is the story that we were telling over the last two days? From your eyes through your eyes. What did you see?

Julie:   17:30
What's that? I see? Yeah, well, I've seen, um well, just a happy family and a wonderful, wonderful animals. But I've also seen a work in progress, and so you're always trying to, And this was my experience working with you. In the corporate world, you're always trying to do something better. It's true. It's not just this one way we can do it this other way. So it's like moving chairs. You can put the chair there, you can put it there, and it's gonna be completely different. In fact, I was just at a wellness retreat and went on a hike straight up so type hike. Right? And, um, I was hoping we were gonna go in a loop, that it was a loop trail. Haha! And the hiking guide said, No, it's one wife straight up and straight down.

Lynn:   18:34
Oh, I know what

Julie:   18:36
she said. And this was the rial eye opener for me, and what I've seen here is, but what you see going up, it's gonna be completely different than what you see coming

Lynn:   18:48
down. This is true.

Julie:   18:49
So it's a completely different look. So when you're water skiing up one way on the leg, just in the photos? Yeah, it was They're completely different coming back.

Lynn:   19:02
It's true. It looks totally different. It feels different, going from one into the other. So it's interesting.

Julie:   19:08
So I'm seeing that. I'm seeing that here, and I'm seeing that you're able to build several businesses into your life. Yes, sir. Everyday life.

Lynn:   19:22
It's just it's all embedded now.

Julie:   19:23
Yeah, embedded. Yeah, Yeah, as you can only make it better

Lynn:   19:28
and better. It's interesting. I wrote an article a few years ago called The Secret to Better and the whole point of it. Waas Actually, when you first When I first hear the word better, I think perfection. But I'm not going for perfection. That article secret to better it was actually about what do you do with mistakes? Yes. And, um my I think that I think I start that one talking about my art saying my art drawers full of first attempts and meaning that not every painting becomes a masterpiece. But I used to think it should be and not every business is a masterpiece. Or at least in the beginning, or your Web site is gonna be a masterpiece, right? Correct. It's like But if I can actually be striving towards being better and then what is better look like? Like sometimes like today you saw me going backwards on my skiing because I was trying a difference. Keep so it was like to in order to get ahead, I had to go backwards.

Julie:   20:27
Yes, yes, but you look like a superstar. In

Lynn:   20:30
any case, it's funny because and what looks like a superstar to somebody else doesn't feel so good to the person inside. Because I was trying to work out the bigger ski and, you know that kind of thing. But the whole thing was, the whole quest was I wanna be better. And and I talk a lot, a lot about being better under pressure because for some reason, I tend to be better under pressure than I am with no pressure until there's too much pressure. And then it's like all, like, all hell breaks when it all falls apart.

Julie:   21:01
Yeah, well, the way I would relate that to my experience in the dog photography business is Then I offer a memorial session, and that is when the dog is getting older or has cancer or sick. And the family wants to come in and get some, you know, fun memories. Yeah, up. Something they wouldn't have thought to do otherwise. So for that, I'm very much under pressure because time is limited for the dog. This is Jen, the family. And so, uh, and yet I'm so sad. But at the session, I've gotta be lighthearted. I've gotta be

Lynn:   21:47
dreading this as a dog. Does it b You can't be excited about going to see dogs. Onus. Less last legs. End of his life. No, but you have to. You have to show up.

Julie:   21:59
I have to show up and get the dog excited and smiling. And, you know, the peanut butter comes out whether you're sick or not. They love the butter on the family. Loves to even over there, getting all, you know, I really have to wash off my campus. A letter

Lynn:   22:18
says You have dogs licking on your minds, Jack.

Julie:   22:21
Yes. Good. Come. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Wow, that's kind of pressure that you feel perhaps that's a wedding photographer, but yeah, a za dog photographer. That's where I feel it. And that's why I'm also after new experiences like Like you were going water skiing today and several others were, and I wanted to try it out. I wanted to see if I could take some good photos,

Lynn:   22:49
nailed it almost right away because you had some experienced skiers really experience gears. He photographed many times, and they were like, Okay, I don't know about that lands and you know, here's what it's gonna take it, and a lot of brand new photographers and water skiing don't know how fast it is and so will end up getting a lot of just water shots. The spread because they're just a hair behind this. You? Yeah. And you figured it out pretty quickly. From what I could see, looking through your little window? Yeah. Get some really good shots.

Julie:   23:18
Well, I hope so. And that that really comes from photographing dogs and action. Like going off the dock.

Lynn:   23:25
All that, you know,

Julie:   23:25
They could go. Xena could have gone any. Which way, Street, You have to have your shutter speed fast enough to capture that motion. Right? Your arms steady enough to be able to pan right

Lynn:   23:40
to move side to side? Yeah. That is a lot of pressure, all of it. I mean, it's really interesting because especially like in those moments with the dogs who are gonna be, maybe live for another session, you know? So you don't get to have a makeup session, no makeup, you know, and we were talking about water skiing. There's no makeup and water skiing. It's a single, you know, single error, sport based internet. Now today way could fall and get up and do it again. But still, even then, all of us are on whiskey and six passes. That's not that. I mean, it was 15 minutes each. That's not that much time to get into water skiing, and you got it pretty quick. And then you had really different levels of skiers. So you had, You know, Marge, I was skiing on. It's it's 53 foot rub to start and then getting shorter. Austin starts on a can do the math, but it's sort of that and get shorter and shorter where he was ending up 41 off. That's pretty sure that he's almost in the boat.

Julie:   24:38
I know you have to just there so many things to adjust that yeah, way were talking earlier about practice Well, in photography to be good, it's the same thing. You. It's not good enough just to have a vision, or I You have to practice practice, practice to get your settings right, especially in a digital world.

Lynn:   25:01
Right? And yesterday I noticed, like is the light was changing as we waited, everything from you got here. We had a thunderstorm, so it's kind of cloud cover, and it was kind of half and half in the sun started going down. But when the sun was out too, so you were constantly changing exposure settings.

Julie:   25:16
Yeah, you have to be on. And that's what I love. I love it because you're practicing and then you have a lot of time when you go home when I go home and download the photos on my computer to be able to see the progression of the sequences and the lighting. Yeah, because then I put it together in a gallery and again, it's, I mean for it, the whole thing to tell a story. And you you also practice practice, practice anything?

Lynn:   25:50
Well, I just think I thought about this, but I was watching you with your, you know, settings and knowledge and like changing lenses to get the bigger lands where we're gonna be able to further away the shorter lens when you were up close and so forth. But now with iPhone like, you've got that new iPhone, Mr three cameras, every body thinks their photographer because our phones were so good. We're catching all these moments. And yet, even though we get these phenomenal pictures on our phones and we really do, seeing what you got was a whole nother level, it's

Julie:   26:25
a whole nother level. And like Mike, I'm say, with bright eyes, photos and when I tried to convince people is you know, you've got some nice smartphone totals there. But do you really see their eyes like Can you see their eyes And with Smalls And we see that we have dark dogs and our guys. Yeah, and you have to catch those catch lights. And I'm sorry. No matter how good your smartphone as your it's not gonna catch him, you're not gonna really see their spirit.

Lynn:   26:56
That's it. And it's interesting because I've actually done a lot of paintings of pets and people will ask. It's kind of like your memorial. In fact, several times has been animals that were leaving the earth or had already left, and I would, especially for the ones that would always already leave. So I've got a photograph and I might not have even met the dog. Um, and this is gonna sound crazy, but it would happen. I would be painting the dog, and I would almost like feel the spirit of the dog come in wrong, like Phil. I wanted to know the spirit of the animal one and I would be painting going. Come talk to me, you know, and I know that sounds really woo because it's not like I can't put my finger on it. But I would know when I gave it to the person they would say, You got it, That's him. And it's something about the eyes and the catch lights, Yes, and just just having the spirit in the painting or in the photograph.

Julie:   27:51
Exactly. It makes it makes all the difference. And and doesn't it make you feel like, um, you've you've just contributed something to the world to that other person there?

Lynn:   28:04
It's priceless for them to have that picture of that animal that meant so much, you know, and I have. I have not had that many animals that I had to usher to the other side. We had a cat that came in a few years ago. Brandi showed up. She was only with us for five years, and she was the sweetest cat you've ever met. And I did eventually paid her and I have not painted Xena. I will at some point, but unfortunately, because I tend to paint animals at the end of their lives, I've not painted Xena because I wasn't ready to memorialize her. I want to live. I want to be with her while she's alive. And then when she's gone, I can I can think about painting. But I can't think about painting her before she's going. I don't know what that iss

Julie:   28:50
Yeah, well, you'll have these photos

Lynn:   28:53
and these photos are gonna be amazing to paint from. Yeah, it really will. So it's interesting cause we were talking this morning about our inspirations, and so I'll just go ahead and I'll go really well. While we're here. It's not really that route May. We're joined by our inspiration for blog's spirit coming in with animals, and it made me think about when I've had to write. You know, I told you, I think about 50% of my blog's just came to me. Yes, yes, like the one. It's almost like a download, and it's kind of interesting because it's like all of a sudden it's not like all the words come, But the idea comes or the concept, And if I don't catch it while it's there, I don't have it. So the one I just did that went out this morning. Actually, he's called balancing food and Fear, and that happened at the end of the lake one day with Austin, you know, down there on that foreign, Were you? Yes, Austin. Tonight for Austin, that's been That's where we solve all the problems of the world because we're out of your shot of anybody else and

Julie:   29:53
you're looking down the lei.

Lynn:   29:55
You're looking down the lake and until we have the project going on where they were making the road down there, there was nobody down there. It's where we could talk about things like our frustrations or things nobody else hears about, you know, trying to piece things together or whatever. And a lot of it's about our different ways that we get in our own way. And fear is one of my favorite ways to get in my way. And, you know, we were like I said something like, It scares me to do something and he said, and it should remember what you're doing. You're going so fast, you know. So then it was like, Oh, man, fears like food. Austin and boot was like I had the I had the block because it's like you have to have fear. You have to have food. But that can be in the wrong place in your life. You know, it's out of place. It's gonna keep fat fears out of place. It's gonna keep you from being all you can be. And it made me think about one of our fellow colleagues that we both news. Katie. Yes, years ago, she hired me. I guess this is when she had left Fannie Mae and was now working at Madame and she asked me to write a change management book. It was like it was like a workbook. And she she gave it to me in the best possible way because it's like it wasn't a blank page. She gave me 15 topics. Wow, 15. She gave me 15 topics. And so and it was It was things like guiding coalitions, controlling the uncontrollables, um, setting a vision, Um, things like that. And, you know, it was the things you need to know when you're managing big change. And that's all I get. Overcoming resistance. I think we changed it to managing resistance eventually because I didn't like overcoming because I think resistance support. But it was really interesting because she would just give me sort of the topic and maybe a headline on what she meant. Like a couple of them. I was like, What do you mean by this? Or do you really want me to go there or whatever? And then my job was to come back to her with the whole chapter or a whole thing. And man, was that fun because she kind of came up with the idea of the topics. And all I had to do was Filipina is amazing inspiration.

Julie:   32:19
Well, when I when I would but build on that and say Dog photography is I have a questionnaire which I'll have to send you my question there. So okay, scare that. I ask you the questions on the phone. Yeah, we were, Yeah, we were out west, so I had the the outline of what? D'oh! Russell. I had the right equipment in that, But talking to the people of pets and their people and then watching you interact with each other at the beginning of a session, I think gives may the what will the visual cues of what's important to that owner like let's say, I had I had a dog recently who had a dark dog with the piece of white for on his back that looked like a heart. Okay, the owner said to me, My dog Sammy has been kissed by an angel s O. I knew that spot was really important to her and so to photograph. And so just like you would be writing in that way. And I would when I get into my blog's that would be important to see to in a way, it's it's listening in another way that yet listening to make a visual statement or listening to make a written statement.

Lynn:   34:01
Yeah, that's one of the interest. It's funny cause you said listening and I was sitting over here. It's really just listening. And like when I get when Katie would give me a topic, or when something comes to me that I want to block about, then I just listen. And what needs to be said shows up. If I could get quiet and get out of my head exactly and listen. And also it's interesting cause we make a distinction. I think I told you we work in the ramp in with horses a lot, yes, and the whole point of that work is to quit thinking of things you're doing as a mistake and you don't really think you're making a mistake. You feel you're making a mistake. It's a sensation in your body. And when that sensation comes up, instead of saying that's a mistake Oh, say that's a signal for me to listen and to hear and then to problem solve and see what needs to be done, as opposed to do what you've always done. And the interesting thing is, our first I was like, What's the difference between listening and hearing? And for me, it's like your story about the dog. So you see the heart you listen, you recognize it's important, but you never take a single picture of the heart. That means you didn't hear

Julie:   35:21
exactly. Yes, yes, you here and following through

Lynn:   35:26
and and And you actually grant somebody? I heard you watch this like I heard you hear it. ISS and we do that with the horse. It's like if a horse is telling us that what you're doing isn't working and then you change it all of a sudden it works, and the horse knows you heard. Yes. Yeah, you know,

Julie:   35:48
animals are very sense Orient.

Lynn:   35:51
Unbelievably sense oriented, both. And even though the dogs are predators and horses or pray s so they have a different fight or flight response, it's kind of in reverse. Dogs are gonna be more likely to fight, and the horse is gonna be more likely to flee. But ah, horse will fight if you push him if you corner him. But that's rare. Most that they want to run. But they also really Comptel when you're hearing they really can't and they're so sensitive. Like one of our exercises is to just get movement from the horse. And you have to start paying attention to the seventies because the horse isn't gonna make a big move necessarily. But you'll see they're your twitch. I wrote a blogger. You probably saw that What is in here twitch have to do with business? Yes. As what? What has been mind blowing to me is what I've added those sensitivities to my business. So to working with my clients or just for me working in my business, having the sensitivities to see the invisible, because I feel like the difference between better and not better. As we were talking about happens, Maurine the invisible realm like I can't put my finger on what makes you such a great dog photographer. I can see your results and I can see your process. But I would bet that if we took 50 photographers and said, Here's Jules process Here's the idea of catch lights. Here's the wife. She uses her exposures and all the technical and so forth. No, they would not capture the animals and the spirit of the animals the way you do, because there's still something intangible or invisible that you do

Julie:   37:38
well. I'm always learning, always learning. And so so. I just tried to pick up a CE many this many cues and have a CE much technical expertise Asai can take in. Yes, some in order to make it happen.

Lynn:   37:57
But that's all those visible tools. There's still something happening like one. For example. Here's something. Here's something I noticed immediately when you came up. Yesterday is how quickly you connected with my dog. She's fairly easy to connect with.

Julie:   38:09
I gave her a hug, but for you?

Lynn:   38:12
Yes, yeah, you did. But it's interesting because a lot of people get very frustrated with Xena because they want to connect with her, and she doesn't return it like she becomes okay, because the first thing she's a Doberman. So the first thing she's gonna do when you show up and she's gonna bark and say This is my territory I'm waiting for further instructions about whether you're coming in or not just to me, it's a friend or foe and I say, Okay. And then from then on, what she drops that usually she's kind of like, I don't know she's non threatening, Lee, oblivious. She's not gonna bite you or anything, but with you she was immediately connecting with you immediately looking in your face immediately, like Oh, you're you're a person that I want to be with, and so that's invisible. I mean, you did hug her first. That's visible, but there's something you know, special that I think makes the dogs respond to you too.

Julie:   39:04
Well, thank you. I love.

Lynn:   39:05
Yeah, well, there's love in there, that's for sure.

Julie:   39:08
And passion. Maybe it's one of those peas.

Lynn:   39:10
It could be one of those peace, but again, I feel like that's almost like it's an invisible energy. But animals are much more tuned into that than we are. They are. They have to be.

Julie:   39:20
They are. It's a sense of confidence. Yes, that that you have to show up with definitely have to show up with that confidence. Even if you're scared. Like about, um, 45 photo shoots into my business. I'm was photographing an English bulldog. And the English bulldog had absolutely no training. None whatsoever.

Lynn:   39:45
Oh, my goodness. Oh, no Manners,

Julie:   39:47
Nothing. No said snap. Right. And, um so you better think she bit May And she, um, the owner and let her off the leash. And I was trying to get the owner to put her back on the leash because dogs do much better if you step to the side, hold them up with the leash. You know, that's if they have no training, of course, because then they tend to just either sit, lie down or stand up. And so you get some good photos in this case with the fallen leaves in the bathroom. So I was lifting up tryingto get himto hold, put the leash on and hold her up. She just took a little bite out of May and I couldn't show any fear, right? I had before the owner or her, and I hadn't been in that situation before and actually I hadn't thought of it. But now I do ask the questions that to make sure your dog has Rabies shot

Lynn:   40:51
Yes, duh. Because I really don't want to be bitten by dog that has been taken care of.

Julie:   40:58
That doesn't have Rabies shot, you know? So, um, you had to be confident. Yes, I gave her a stern No and Jenny the dog's name. She immediately back down and sat down. So I think I'm showing some confidence but not overdoing it. And that's showing fear in this case, you know, I waas fearful because I was like, Oh my God, it's

Lynn:   41:26
blading And don't ask about my shot and I still have to get the pictures, but that's I think that's it. Also on energetic thing. Is that dog new human business, Yes, and anybody that's ever been around so many dogs you, they can tell who is going to move them or not like there's a big difference between somebody that could get a dog to mind them or not. And again, I feel like that is much invisible as it is visible like I've, uh When When Xena used to chase balls, we'd have kids here. And Xena totally understands the command. Drop it. But the words are not what make her drop it. The energy is what makes her drop it for the ball to give it back. So she would always drop it for me Because I have trained her that I didn't and I never said it a second time. The minute she didn't drop it, she got enforced like I went to the next level. So she didn't wait for me to go. Drop it. Drop it, Drop it, Drop it, Drop it, drop it. I don't do that. I just go immediately to the next level. So I would be training kids how to do it and they go. Oh, but she won't do it. And I said, Okay. I want you to try it this way now, because you're saying the words, but I'm not even convinced. You mean I don't want you to be angry. I don't want you to be loud. I don't want you to change anything other than I just wanted to come from your belly. And I want you to mean it, and I would do that and she would drop it every time.

Julie:   42:52
Look at that sells right.

Lynn:   42:54
It's an invisible thing, but the dog knows the difference if you're confident or not, because I mean it or not exact. If you have that intention or not, Yes, and actually, in working with the horses what I've learned, I'm still kind of mind blowing about this. But we would often talk about Here's your picture and what I discovered is, if I'm really clear in my picture, I almost don't have to do anything cause the horse picks the picture up. Yes, and one of us. One of the trainers in the reigning barn that I've worked with in Oklahoma, I asked him, after I I did. I was just getting back in the saddle. I'm riding a stallion, which is a big deal. He's needing a lot stronger cues from me. Then I could see he needed from the trainer. So when I want to go left, the trainer said, you know, move your hand and I move my hand, and in my case it was like six or eight inches before the horse got that. I want to return left. When Trevor was on him, he returned. I couldn't even see them. And so I said, Trevor, help! What am I doing wrong? He said you're not doing anything wrong, but I have such a clear picture. And he's so used to working with me and my picture that he usually just goes off within my head. Yes, yes. And I think if we recognize how strongly are animals Pick that stuff up, but not just our animals. I actually think people pick it up, don't you? I think so. You know, that's far get bad dogs around people. Sometimes we get confused like think about our corporate experience is how many times and we've probably been in these meetings together when somebody would say something to these effective. I've got this and you knew that

Julie:   44:37
exactly right. And you just you just wanted to come out and tell them Step one step two. Step three. Step four is what I want to see many cases you have to let the person go on the leash and yeah, and see, I have these analogies between dog and corporate world. Now I love it. So you you give him some rain and see what they come back with and see how constructive they were. And then you are. If any feedback needed to be

Lynn:   45:09
exact. Yeah, But you you, as they're talking to you, you could tell it's almost like an incongruity, like a difference between what they're saying and what you feel. Yes, and And there's also people who, when they said it, you knew they meant it. Yes, like that is true all in line, like our sister Lily. Talk about somebody who we always felt like. I always felt like Sister Lillian, and I knew exactly

Julie:   45:35
exactly what she wanted and exactly what would really make a clear impact. That's right, that's that. And she was all about alleviating poverty and making life's better for residents of the affordable housing. And you, I would just you and I and legions of others would just go out of their way to help. That vision becomes reality

Lynn:   46:01
because she there was nothing about it other than alleviating poverty, like and and in that way it was like everything she said was clear. And, you know, I remember at her service, which we were at together, a couple of months ago, they said she would always say, Take care of yourself and take care of each other.

Julie:   46:21
Yes, yes, that's a those paramount. When my sister was dying, she was on the phone to May regularly telling me to take care of myself. And it's so, so important to do that because otherwise you have no energy left for your loved

Lynn:   46:41
one. And it's so interesting that we get in this thought about selfishness. Like if I'm gonna caretaking role or somebody needs me, including the mission, like taking care of homeless, taking care of the homeless, you can only take care of Muchas you have to give. If you empty yourself, you got nothing else to give. So if we're not replenishing ourselves, which I think is one of the greatest fallacies of a lot of our societal upbringing is taking care of yourself is a selfish act. I'm like, No taking care of yourself is a selfless act because you can only give what you've got

Julie:   47:17
right, and and she was so successful in what I would call of bringing in the troops. People that had the same vision or who learned to be is committed. No one could be as committed as she Waas, but that had the same vision and was willing Thio work in their own style. She didn't ask for a particular style she wanted to see. It's something that I'm human like and have a remain humane world, right, and gave you a really long leash when she had confidence.

Lynn:   47:54
So true, and as a result, the mission. I mean, what's happened with mercy housing the number of homes that people are in that would not have been in homes. It's in the 45 1000 Yes, or something like that.

Julie:   48:09
More yes, over the over the years, going from some homes and in Omaha and Idaho to the vast number of thousands of affordable rental homes built each ear.

Lynn:   48:23
Yes, and you know people. A lot of times, if you look it, that particular problem in society of affordable housing for people who have a house particularly are a house that can afford you don't recognize it, but it, like here in our small community and like lure we. It's really pointed as we got a school in and we started having teachers that needed a place to live and we have nurses and we have policemen and firemen, and the restaurants have people that need a place to live, and you start looking around for affordable housing and there just isn't any. You know, it's either one of the vacation rentals on a house. It's crazy, expensive or it's a hovel that nobody could live in. You know, it's not unusual to see people living in houses without running water and electricity around here. Wow. I mean, it's really, really common. And so you start recognizing, you know, just what it means. And this was her passion. And it's also James passion. Uh, Jane, who's the CEO of Mercy Housing now is what it means to have a site home exactly, Griff, over your head and the clarity that Lillian had for that mission. And you go back to what we started this conversation with WAAS, the Congreve INSEE. Because I feel like also a lot of times with companies, and I don't think this is necessarily a for profit or nonprofit distinction. Is is it all about money or is this company here? Is this organization here to solve a real problem? Yes, and be fairly compensated for solving that problem. And to me, that's what capitalism's years she

Julie:   50:05
should be. Yes, yes.

Lynn:   50:08
And you know, be the best alternative. Solve the problem better for your select customers and then be responsible with your profits in in a non profit. You're still you still have to bring in more than you. Yeah, Go. You won't be around Exactly. You know, we had many, many team meetings with mercy housing where it was like exactly how do we do that? How do we budget in a way that this thing can continue so that you can put them next 1000 people in a home as opposed to running out of funds, to not be put more people in homes?

Julie:   50:41
Well, you know, when I spent those 30 years of my name career for my first career right doing affordable housing, finance and related urban planning and you know that's my second encore Business is I have an affordable housing consulting business because I'm so inspired by my 15 years of work at mercy housing of seven on the board and seven on the staff that I couldn't stop. That's so good. So I'm able thio really an effect pay for the photography until I really get it up and running. Sure with my affordable housing consultant. So I still have that passion.

Lynn:   51:32
Well, I'm so glad because, um, first of all, I think it's interesting, too. On core businesses, you haven't used the word retirement once, you know, and I think it's funny because I think it's worth just looking at the word because people use that word. I'm like, No, I'm never like my definition of retirement, which isn't even retirement, is 80% of the time. I get to do what I want to today that includes my coaching with my clients or running team meetings like we did with mercy, or like going up to San Francisco to see everybody during sister Lillian Memorial. That was what I wanted to do. That wasn't work that wasn't an obligation. I almost don't do things because out of obligation anymore, it's like if it's an obligation and I can't find joining, there's something wrong. That's where I have come to, because if I'm caretaking, I have to want I mean, if I don't want to, there's something wrong. So I got a look at that and then take care of that. And then I'm gonna want to do the caretaking or realize that I'm only doing it for the out. All the wrong reasons say I want every I want every day to be doing. I mean, I can't 100% be doing what I want. Like, I'd love to say 100% of time I'm getting I'm doing what I want, but there's still some stuff I don't want to do. That's right. I have to. I think I mean, in the like, you know, we'll just call psych. Cleaning dog poop is probably not one of things. I want to do that every now and then. I have to do that. You have dogs when you're in a bar, and I've learned horses hoping it's a lot bigger, so you don't live around. You won't get rid of that stuff, but I just think it's interesting that you're on your own core businesses. You have as much passion, if not more, than you did with your premiere business or what you did most of your career. Yeah, it's all still, in a way, giving back

Julie:   53:24
yes, I definitely feel that because of the work I'm doing. I could be the same with dogs and cats and the affordable housing business I can be. I can put more into each assignment. Yeah, and the thing about it. Issa's a business. It's an assignment. It's gonna end. And so, unlike the corporate world, it just seemed like the jobs and the assignments just blend into each other,

Lynn:   53:56
you know, and it's so hard. I always say people in the corporate world live life like a run on sentence. There's no punctuation. It's like running around constantly, like never knowing if you're making progress. It's like being on a hamster wheel. In fact, when I was working at Bank of America, I remember in Charlotte you park in the garage and the walkways were all like above ground, like on the second floor from building to building. And I was walking out of the parking lot one day going, you know, and I was in premier parking, going through really nice buildings and, you know, I felt like I had a lot of choice in my career. I have a big job and so forth, but I'm walking one day and and the tube all of a sudden I got in my mind. I got the picture of those hamster games. If somebody has hamsters for they have those like clear plastic tubes that the hamster could run place to place and then get on a hamster wheel and then go to another tube and get another hamster wheel. And I'm walking across whatever trading, try on the street or whatever. I was in downtown Charlotte and I looked at myself and I was like, Everybody else was Scurry. That's the only word we're scurry from. Work from the car work. Get on the hamster wheel! And I was like, Oh my God, I am living in the rat race. Yes, yes, I'm in the hamster tube And it was interesting because that's probably one of the call a little tiny earthquakes, one of those, like little earthquakes that got me kind of waking up to what, exactly? I had signed up for being in the corporate world and being in the world where, like, I had to start asking myself, What am I doing for money and is this Am I getting anywhere like your your picture of like it when we're in the corporate world. You said it doesn't have a beginning and end. It just seems to keep on going and keeps on going, right?

Julie:   55:41
Exactly. Exactly. I'm I'm And I took a step off three years ago and said, Well, now I can choose what I want to dio Yeah, and still make an impact because I'm only gonna choose things that, um, you know, makes sense and helpful. And then people are only hiring made to do exactly that. Both in photography Randon consultant. So there's a

Lynn:   56:12
ton of Congress e and clarity and like a beginning, middle and end. And then you get to know what a job well done looks like

Julie:   56:20
exactly Yes, yes, yes. So I

Lynn:   56:23
have a question about this because it's something I pondered, and I'm not willing to test it personally, which is because what can is it possible if you got your mind right in the corporate world, toe work from more choice? Or is it just by definition, gonna be life like we described it kind of forever on the hamster wheel?

Julie:   56:49
Well, here's the thing. I think that if you're in a start up, that's the most exciting time today in the corporate world because they're your maximising innovation that we haven't liked about innovation yet. But you're maximizing innovation skills and you're able to test out things to feel their impact. With that it's gonna take or not. And then if it takes off, then you're making it bigger. You're making that better, but you're also raising the scale of it. So you have to institute yeah, controls.

Lynn:   57:33
You know, it's interesting, cause this is calling to mind, um, I love listening to Tim Farriss podcast. I think he's got a great podcast. You need to find him. And a recent one was with Sopheap a call, and I would love to be able to tell you all about who he is, but I know he was a starter and he was talking about the difference between working and a startup and an existing organisation. And the distinction he was talking about really like, struck me. And it's the difference between how closely tied you are to the outcome of what you're doing versus how far away you are from the outcome. So think about in a startup. Everybody knows kind of what the end game is gonna be, and especially of equity. You have an idea. I own 1000 shares, and if this works, I'm gonna be worth whatever I'm gonna share in the bounty of this hard work that we're doing right. And he said, When you're in that kind of row, the incentives need to be a certain way so that it gets everybody tied two outcomes. But he said, the bigger you get, the further away from outcomes you are then money. And those kind of incentives don't mean as much as power and political stroke, where promotion matters more where ability to like get that incremental title in your name. And I thought about it, I'm sure. I'm sure it struck me so hard because I remember a bank of America. When I was there, I was on a plane flight with somebody. I was advised President trying to become a senior vice president. And there were all kinds of perks that happened within your vice president. I don't remember what they were now, but I remember the sin Maura seniors and probably an executive vice president, which is better than a senior vice president was saying, you know, I think this title stuff gets people to hungry and too confused. I think we should just quit having titles all together, and I just about ready. I was just joking. No, we have to keep time. Yes, and I was really much more interested in that than I waas. You know, the next level stock options or whatever. So your comment about the startup, I think Do you think that's part of why it's more fun is because you can see what you're creating

Julie:   59:45
exactly. Oh, I create yes, right. And you're building on a vision and you're using skills. You know, you're not on a tight leash typically, and you're you're able to create.

Lynn:   1:0:00
Yeah, you're you are creating it. Is innovation at its best? Yes, and you're you're not like I feel like it's less personal when I'm in that kind of when it's I do my main. My coaching I've had a surprising number of entrepreneurs, and coaching them is very different than coaching in the corporate world. It has that well, so that's a great question. So in coaching an entrepreneur, all of our conversations are about let's get really, really clear on what makes you special. Let's get really, really clear on the problem we're solving. Let's get super duper clear on who you're solving that problem for and what matters to them. I want you reading their minds. I want you knowing what they want before they know it. And all of that has a feeling of service to it and of giving, whereas in with my corporate clients, even at the highest levels, it's Maura about navigating multiple agendas. So I coach a lot of CEOs. One of the interesting things that happens with CEOs that a lot of people don't recognize is they work to become a CEO. I've coached several people into that role, and actually Lily and Lily was silly CEO when I started working with her. I've never actually officially coached, but we had a lot of these conversations. But you think you're at the top. You're not at the top like you're going to be at the top of the pyramid and like I always put my fingers together like, you know, making a pyramid. You're actually. Then I put the heels on my hands together at the bottom of the ex because the CEO is the one who has to be the face of the organization to the public. The CEO is the one who is gonna be explaining things to the shareholders or to the board or whatever stakeholders you have to the community, to the media, you know? And so those conversations when I'm working with people more in the corporate world, I would calm or defensive. So it's more about howto I navigate the agenda that feels like person a person be want different things. And how do I navigate, you know, sending certain kinds of messages so that I get that promotion. If it's not somebody, if it's somebody looking for a promotion or something like that, like it's just a different. It's more about status in the corporate world, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean, that status means how do I keep my power in the world makes me feel powerless. But it's not that we're almost never talking about the customers, right? We're not ever. I mean we can and we do sometimes. But most of the time I'm talking about navigating all the different agendas in the corporate world, and I actually one down. I said to somebody I said you know, if everybody could get past all of that and their nonsense about what they think the agenda's me because we have a lot of internal dialogue about. Well, why did so and so say that in the meeting? And does that mean I'm not gonna get the promotion? Or does that mean that that project's going to somebody else? You know, because we're cost, like trying to read the tea leaves in the corporate world. I always said if we could stop that nonsense, we probably are wasting 50% of our time. But then I said, Well, maybe we don't wanna be that efficient cause then everybody be unemployed because everybody is so effective.

Julie:   1:3:19
Well, well, Lynn, you've coached both for profit and nonprofit. I have, in the space of the, you know, organizational world. Yeah. What do you see? Different way, if anything about the non profits. Because I've worked in both. Yeah, I find them to be distinctly different and primarily based on mission.

Lynn:   1:3:44
Yes, well, you know, we talk about that continuum between mission and mercenary. Right? And mission is, I find in most cases they're both out of balance. So in a non profit. I find they're they're out of balance on the mission into the continuum and on Capitol are on four profits. They tend to be out of balance on the mercenary of the continuum. In other words, mercenary meaning they will do thanks for money they shouldn't be doing. But on the non profit they will forget. The responsibility of the resource is as much as they should. And I'm actually a pretty big fan of the view in the nonprofit world of hire the best people so that they create the greatest good and quit trying to measure nonprofits on Is every dollar end going out to the mission directly? Because if you can have an alchemy in as the dollar's come in that create more impact by having really great people with really great ideas being like onto producer saying we're gonna solve a sticky problem, then you could help a lot more people, then just being a pass through. I mean, the white we measure nonprofits is a pastor, and who cares if you're not adding any value, Don't be a nonprofit. Don't be anything right. Just go

Julie:   1:5:07
get like like right, you're

Lynn:   1:5:09
Marcie. Housing is a great example. If we're trying to solve homelessness and we want to directly help the homeless in an extreme of that version, you would have taken every dollar that was given you and just go on to the streets and handed it to the homeless people.

Julie:   1:5:23
That's an extreme. You're right. That's an extreme.

Lynn:   1:5:26
But it's it's a passin Mary and it actually your. By those measures, 100% of the dollars went to the homeless people, or 99% of dollars with countless people. But you didn't add any value what, for example, mercy Housing is a great example. Not only does mercy housing put houses roofs over people's heads, but they also use service. Is that help people understand how to be a responsible renter? Eventually, a homeowner how to get a job, how to dress for interviews? You know, it's things that might not have been taught because of how somebody was again things a lot of people take for granted. Of course. You know, you were this to interview? No, not everybody knows that they weren't taught. So you give them service enriched housing.

Julie:   1:6:11
Exactly. Those residents really needs. The service is to live themselves out of poverty. That's the point only not only the bricks and mortar

Lynn:   1:6:21
that's exactly right. And poverty, I have come to realize isn't about how much money you have often is. It's about how you know what to do with that money. And we're a compilation of our beliefs and a compilation of our upbringing compilation of conditioning. And if you were never taught how to go get us, get a good job. And like you said, dress for an interview or something like that, you're gonna be destined to live in the same way you've always lived. So if you could be, If you understand how people think differently than you do, you can actually defeat poverty. Exact not a condition you have to keep. And this is what I loved about mercy. Housing was it was never a hand out. It was a hand up,

Julie:   1:7:07
a hand up exactly,

Lynn:   1:7:10
and so back to your original question about what's the difference between both? I feel like we all need more balance, so I get the most excited. Working with a for profit company that super focuses on why there are uniquely qualified to serve the clients they serve in a way that makes people want to come to them, and then they they have a fair profit for doing that. In that case, in a for profit. The only difference between that and nonprofit is they choose to the for profit means. What we choose to do with our profits is either re employ them in the business or occasionally distribute them to a shareholder. You know, if you have a dividend stock or something that in a non profit, you still need to have that incoming be greater than the outgoing and it gets 100% deployed. You don't have shareholders that you have to play, too. I think in a mercenary work into the continuum, I think shareholders were driving too much. A lot of times

Julie:   1:8:08
they drive the value

Lynn:   1:8:10
and people, I think it also drives people. I think I feel like it's a cycle that happens where shareholders demand returns and then the people in the company start demanding that same kind of return for themselves and they end up on a very expensive answer will that they can't get out. So they've got the big house that got the big cars they've got the big job. They've got the big status and they start doing things for money, just to keep the lifestyle without even ever second guessing. Why am I doing what I'm doing? I see that a lot. So it's, I think those two things are different. So in in my not in my for profit conversations in the coaching world, it's a lot of times about how do we pierce all this stuff that you have to find what really matters to you and a lot of cases find your passion cause their passions going, Yeah, right. And a lot of times forgotten. Even. What? Like a lot of times, I'll have to ask somebody. What did you like to do when you write years old,

Julie:   1:9:05
you have to go back that

Lynn:   1:9:06
far because that's where I mean, if I look at me when I was between somewhere between five years old, 15 years old, so it's kind of in the middle of that. I learned a water ski I would pay with watercolors. I had a horse I had. I was out on the farm, my dad's farm. I was fishing on the lake, You know, I was outdoors. I mean, like, if you look at my life today, it's almost a mirror of what I was in those years because obviously this comeback I've come back to must of come full circle. Did I know any of this when I was in the middle of my life? A Bank of America? No, no, I bear it like I remember when I was first thinking about painting, it was like, Well, I don't know where to start. I was like, Oh, but I remember those little watercolor tunes that we would get, like, eight colors and then be like a little dry packet and you get the brush and you, you know, and I went and bought one of those. And that's what I started with before I understood. Watercolors also come in tubes and they don't have to start driving. But, you know, and the horses were miles away. Still, I was like, I'm never gonna have to do with horses. And all the sudden next thing I know, I'm surrounded by friends with horses that I'd like to be override that I can't ride until I look like I've got to go learn how to learn because I didn't know how to ride horses very much. So yeah, I feel like that's like entrepreneurs are gonna be much more connected to their passion and what matters to them, Not nonprofit. People tend to be connected to a passion they need sometimes to, you know, really phony and especially small ones on. No, I would exclude Marcie housing from this because I think they're the world model a lot of ways. But what are you really here for? And how do you How do you take that incoming and make it much more than it ever would have been? But for him having passed through your

Julie:   1:10:52
rather than 1 to 1

Lynn:   1:10:53
past, that's exactly that's exactly what I think. The 11 pastors ridiculous you have. No, you're adding Novak absent value. And then how are really great people that could do really great things and pay them? Absolutely. I feel like a lot of times our media shames people for having a good salary, and I have seen two people who have pretty ridiculous salaries in the nonprofit world. But I think a good solid salary should be okay in a non profit world, especially if you're writing a lot about you, if

Julie:   1:11:23
you're adding value and helping the increase, what's going out that door and helping to really leverage?

Lynn:   1:11:32
Leverage is the key in that what we're talking about, like it's not really any alchemy is like a funky word, but leverages What? ISS You could take a dollar and turn it into 10 in

Julie:   1:11:42
turn it. If you

Lynn:   1:11:43
could turn it into 10. That's that many more people that get whatever it is. You know, I was president of the Land Conservancy. The local land Conservancy was Carolina Mountains Conservancy, announced care. Conserving Carolina was several years ago, but for us it was how much acreage was protected and having a really solid base to protect it for perpetuity. Because the conservation world, at least as long as we have the legal system we have right now, it's protected forever, and that means you have to be. You don't get to come and go. You had means in 50 and 100 and 100 50 years. The organization still has to be here to make sure the land doesn't get used. The wrong way

Julie:   1:12:26
right in perpetuity means it has to follow

Lynn:   1:12:29
That's exactly right. So you have to have an amazingly solid financial base, right? And have funds that are dedicated for that. You don't get to close up shop.

Julie:   1:12:40
Absolutely. So it's got an ongoing purpose and mission that's exactly steady on

Lynn:   1:12:45
and steady on. Did you have to hire people who are good steady on exactly? Because some people are really good at doing the deals and other people are good at running and doing the deals and running the thing. Take totally different personalities, if you ask me. Yes, yes. So which one of you I know? I'm I'm more of a deal person. I'm more of a like I'm not that good of the running. Are you more of like a builder or a runner or a deal person or operations person?

Julie:   1:13:12
Well, I love the deals. I must say, I love the deals and I'll never take my fingers off the deals, But I'm really good at running pants. Yeah, so stay. Yes. So So what I like to do,  is what you were saying, is hire good people. So at Mercy Long fund I hired terrific people that knew how to do deals and make impact and build that leverage up. So we were actually, when I left ,at a dollar to $10 . Exactly the one to ten.

Lynn:   1:13:48
yeah, and that's that's when you really making a difference. That's when that's when what you're doing is different than what those dollars could be doing elsewhere.

Julie:   1:13:56
Yes, yes, and I was also good at raising money. And that's really important not only for the for profit but for the nonprofit, because, in effect, the amount of money that you can raise is your stock. It's your value, because then you can leverage other people's money. Other people that want to do good but don't have that expertise to do to build the high quality, affordable housing with resident services.

Lynn:   1:14:35
yeah, that makes sense. So what is the key to raising money?

Julie:   1:14:41
Well, the key to raising money is, is I think, part partnership, part relationship and part being able to show the impact and perhaps my last ones, yeah, perhaps the last one is the most important, because in building any partnership and relationship, you've got to show the person, the entity what what's in it for them. Whether you're for profit or nonprofit. What's it? What's it? How is it going to add to your, how is leveraging this money through a nonprofit going to increase your stature, status and impact.

Lynn:   1:15:37
you? In a way, what you're doing is saying I will take care of your resources in a way that lines up with your passion.

Julie:   1:15:46
Yes, yes, Excellent. Yes,

Lynn:   1:15:50
yeah. Especially people who actually are trying to find a place to give substantial money or a place that they can make an impact.

Julie:   1:15:59
Yes, and really, it's got of the non profits way of handling customers. You were talking this morning about Austin running the ski school in the key to his repeat customers year after year, season after season. Who said he keeps in touch with them. He really does built relationships with people. He and they see the value and coming back that felt welcomed that they'll have a T shirt waiting for them. They have a tell for them when they get out of

Lynn:   1:16:32
I know, I think that there's we haven't used this word, but I think he cares, and I think that's what we've been talking about. That's why the passion matters. Like, if you're gonna give your money to a nonprofit, you want to know, they care about what you care about. exactly, right. And thank goodness we all care about different things. Because if we all care about just one thing, that problem would get solved. But a lot of other ones would be created.

Julie:   1:17:00
Yes, well, in communicating back, not just taking the money in running and sure it's doing impact, but it really, unless you complete that circle and get back to the customer, they don't know what you're doing. So it's not just the once a year form letter that you right back that has a few statistics. You've gotta call the customer. You've got a visit. Them make appointments, that conferences. You have to be very proactive. And I love being proactive with people.

Lynn:   1:17:35
That is actually very interesting, because I feel like a lot of people under communicate like we just think they know. It's been interesting as we were. For example, with water skiing today, you've asked me lots and lots of questions, like what? The yellow buoys for one of the orange food. What's the object of the game? You know what kind of boat yada, yada things that are so back to the fish in the water. I'm so used to it that I forgot that it's even something that somebody could I ask a question about. But as we were communicating back and forth about what was going on and you were really inquisitive and learning, it's like, Wow, there really is a lot more to this than meets the eye because I'm looking at it with you with new eyes. Yeah, it's new eyes of a beginner. Yeah, and what you just said about communicating back. I was thinking about some of my other nonprofit work where I did the annual letter. And boy, they're very import. They're important. But recognizing that we could have communicated even more and it's worth showing people regularly and the personal touch makes all the difference because the personal touch, which doesn't take that long, does show that you care.

Julie:   1:18:51
It does. It does, and for example, you're blogging. You've been an inspiration to me Lynn for all the blogging that you're doing and you say? Okay, I get it. I get the vision comes to me, But I've also got it planned. Oh, I'm writing every

Lynn:   1:19:08
two weeks, like first and 15. It's a commitment.

Julie:   1:19:11
So you're in touch? Yes. They touch with your customers. If you wanted, you could be sending your blogged. And if you had a particular person or people you wanted to reach out to as you're sending the blood, you could pull that one out and send a special note with it.

Lynn:   1:19:27
Well, this is true. And actually, a lot of times I get notes back, but I probably could do that like, make sure text somebody or something. And make sure I wanted you to see the block for this week because you were on my mind. Yes, yes, a long time. My clients are in those blog's. And like I had a fun experience this weekend at our ski term, there's Ah, this woman was talking to me and I had forgotten that we were Facebook friends and she said something about my pottery and she said, I love your pottery, and I is showing down a trauma questions sooner, So I thought maybe they've been down there and she said, I love it I said, Where have you seen my memory? And she said, Wonder Facebook Page And I'm like Oh my gosh, that's right. We're Facebook friends. She goes land everyday for every one of your blog's. I had no idea. Yes, yes, right, Because I actually don't. I have found the only way for me to be as steady as I am is to not measure it. So I don't go look at my statistics. I don't go see who's rating. I don't even see if somebody in subscribes who have subscribed, right? I don't want any of that noise. I just am committed that on the 15th and the first of the month, I am writing a block, period, and I've been at that for, like, 2 to 3 years now. So if something doesn't come in trouble, I said, something comes. I just say, OK, so But you know what's interesting is something almost always has come. And when I was, I was consulting with somebody when I first set that up, and they said you might want to have a few, you know, in reserve, just in case and I said, You know, for this I am confident that if I have to and maybe three times I've republished something from another time or another location, But I've been pretty confident something will come, and it has. So so That's remarkable. Summer mark. Some are better than others. Well, well, well, well. See, now I'm pretty good at that size. Like I'm I'm gonna say 500 to 2000 words. It's kind of like my sweet spot. But as I told you, I'm writing a book and that's more like, you know, books. I have a 10,000 more book out, but you know, most books are typically 30,000 to 50,000 words.

Julie:   1:21:43
Wow! Wow, how many pages the set translates.

Lynn:   1:21:46
I want to say that goes from, like, 100 and 50 pages to 300 pages, but I, you know, pages were all about the formatting so back. There's a lot of variability there, but it's a bigger, you know, And let's just say like, if you think about your average like six by nine inch paperback, you know you've got your half inch book to your inch book, and then every now, then you've got somebody that has a big, thick book. Um, I'm definitely not gonna do a big, thick book because I know the people who would be reading it. And I'm writing to my clients and I'm writing for my clients. It's not gonna be a book that they want it to be big and thick, like you don't have a lot of time. I gotta pack a lot of punch in what I do, right? And I actually want to write it in a way that if you just happen to pick up a chapter and read the chapter just for that second that message, you can get what you need out of that chapter and not have to read this thing. Start to finish

Julie:   1:22:38
well, like Cassie, each chapter, a block like will you be drawing on your two and 1/2 years of experience in this in this book?

Lynn:   1:22:47
I do think I will. One of the things I did and this is very organized for me, is I've taken all my blog's and put him in a spreadsheet, and it's actually become a great reference to because I'm often descending my clients a blogger and I used to go on my website to find it, and now I've got my spreadsheet. It's easier to find him and then I can click and send it to him. But on the spreadsheet, I've actually laid out like one of the different themes I write about because over a while, after a while you figure out about themes. Everybody, yes, and like my things or things like balance performing under pressure, being balanced in the pressure, work, life balance, you know, using every moment you know things, things like that. Emotional literacy, managing fear, you know, dealing with the emotion versus logic. Throwed off like it's a lot of intersections like the mission mercenaries. A great example. Yes, right like that. If you think about it, there's conflict in that intersection like, Where is that? Where is our sweet spot? And so I think a lot about those kind of things, and my things are like that. So now that I've got the spreadsheet, then I think I'm gonna tease out with themes and sort of the ways that my work is. I think a lot of a lot of my work is being in the invisible world. You know I joke about it being wooed, but I feel like like in talking about your photography, we talk about your invisible, what it is that makes you special. That's invisible, Um, raising money for Mercy Loan fund. You can say it these things and it is those things. But there's also a spark there. Like watching you talk about it. I wish this were not video in this podcast. I wish everybody could see you because the way you lied up in talking about certain things, it's like now there's the passion. There's the past, and then that's when you know that. You know, somebody cares, and it's visible, but it's also invisible, like what you're seeing is, and I work in that invisible realm where it's like, How do you show up under pressure and what is it that makes a great great And you know, the second best, you know, sometimes show up but not always show up. And I definitely don't put myself on the tip of the spear. I'm somebody that I'm really good under pressure, but I'm not like an elite elite, but I but I. But that's not what I've been seeking in my life, either. What I've been seeking in my life is a really good life where I have great days. Like where every day is a great day.

Julie:   1:25:09
Every day's a great

Lynn:   1:25:10
even even days that have hard things that you know. My life is not all like roses and stuff like that. But if I'm showing up, then it's a great day, even if it's tough stuff, sex. So yeah, so anyway, that's what I'm doing with the block. I mean, with the book is we're We're laying out all of the themes, actually working with an editor, and she has me, like looking at the case studies that actually illustrate points. So in the book, the delicate are no book that I gave you yesterday. Yes, there's a story in there, and the person is not Maddie. Um, her name was not Maddie, and she's not. There was not one person, but it was the basic premise in the corporate world. We can't say no. And I don't even know how many conversations I've had with people

Julie:   1:25:59
I've suffered from that. I've spoken with you about that..

Lynn:   1:26:02
Yes, you probably have said no. We can't say I know what you're going

Julie:   1:26:06
to say no to Sister Lillian, That's just talked about

Lynn:   1:26:11
How would you say No?

Julie:   1:26:12
I saying I say yes, but not now. Yeah, Here's when I can do it.

Lynn:   1:26:18
Yes, that's a good way to do it. That's actually what are, you know, with her? Yes. And actually, one of my stories was not sister Lilian, but itwas and I can't even remember his name. It doesn't matter. But it was one of the guys that worked there. One of the, you know, big time people that she brought in. And this is what he said to me one day he were at one of the dinners and you might have even been at the dinner table. I'm sure you probably because it was one of those, you know, places where we were out after a meeting in the next day, we were gonna go back, we're having dinner, and he leaned over and he didn't even make a request. He made a statement. He said, Lynn, I'm going to have you come in and do data data, data data with the water. What a what a change. I don't know what the request was. It didn't matter. what struck me? Waas He didn't even wait to find out if it was gonna be yes or no. He just assumed he assumed. And that's the worst kind of person to say no to, especially in this case, because it would have meant several $1000 a consulting for me. I also though whatever that a lot off your water Waas I knew it wasn't my sweet spot. It was something I could totally do. But not like I was not be the best person. I don't remember what it was, but I remember thinking, Oh, great. I get to say no to him. How am I gonna do this? And well, first I ask a bunch of questions because I wasn't 100% sure that it was going to, you know. But as we were going on through the dinner, I looked over at him and I said, Here's what I would suggest you do instead of having me coming. And that was how I said no. And he actually his eyes lit up and he was very excited. I actually what he was basically saying at the beginning is I have a problem. I want you to solve it. And instead of saying, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna get money. I'll come and do my best to solve the problem. I said, Here's how I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna get this person of this thing. This is what you want to do And we solved it. But I said no. And I remember that that might even be in the delicate art. I think that story might be in the delicate art, but I remember sitting there thinking, Wow, is it hard to say no to somebody who is dangling money? Assuming you're gonna do it, almost treating it like I'm giving you a prize? Yes, right. Like I'm not even gonna make you work for this piece of business. So how can you like, look at that person in the eyes.

Julie:   1:28:40
It's hard, It's hard. It sounds like it sounds like I've got to read the book, but it sounds right.

Lynn:   1:28:46
Yeah, So those are the kind of case studies we're pulling together for the book Perfect. And then show how they illustrate the principles. And because I feel like the visible become the invisible becomes visible by the results, and then people can move it. And

Julie:   1:29:03
what what do leashes have to do with the

Lynn:   1:29:07
way we do? We're talking title. Well, I said, Yeah, because we talk about Get off your leash on maybe  it will be, like right now in my working drive it's called Get Off Relation book because I was actually sitting right here in this room with a client. This is about six months ago, and we've been working together for a taste three years. And her comment to me was Lynn. I just realized I am on my own worst enemy. I'm getting in my wife all the time like it's my thinking That's been the problem all along. And I was like, Wait, we've been after So then a few minutes later took Xena out, we were gonna go check. We just did a walk around the camp. We didn't call him walking talks. So when people come work on retreats with me, we walk and talk and I said, Let's go do a walk and talk and Xena as to where this leash so she won't go chasing after things. So we come out of the chicken coop. I was getting her ex like I did. You were picking eggs out and we come out and Xena is standing there and she is frozen. She's standing on her leash and she's looking at me like I can't move. I'm stuck. And as the client came out, um, I laughed and I said, I said, Look at my dog and she said, Oh my gosh, I said, That's you I said, You're on your own leash. As soon as you learn to step off of it, you're free. And the redcoats? Xena, She got off her leash and she said, I am totally gonna remember this. So every time I feel stuck, I'm gonna realize I'm on my leash and I could step off my leash so that could very well. It is not a log. It may be the book,

Julie:   1:30:44
maybe the book and way I picked up on that. Yes, we do some photos that does this morning.

Lynn:   1:30:53
That's actually a great illustration of the listening and hearing that because I think I was telling that story for some other reason right down, and he said, Let's get a picture, A good picture of you on a leash, which we did. We thought, everybody just listening, can see if you can find that picture somewhere on a blogger on my website, and

Julie:   1:31:12
you can send that to your

Lynn:   1:31:13
client Communicate. I actually need to do that because, yes, you regularly, But that is that is a That's a great way, a great sort of stopping point for us because we've kind of come full circle. Boy, did this conversation go? I love this conversation. I can't believe we did that. So question as we wrap, if you could, um, like, if you had a message that you wish everybody got you've worked in the for profit world. In the nonprofit world. You're working in your entrepreneurial world. So, like all my clients are going to be one of those three girls either as an entrepreneur or in a non profit or for profit. But as a business person in all of your years of your career, having a premiere career and encore career, what would your message be? What would you wish that they would know to make their lives better?

Julie:   1:32:08
Well, that's another tough question. Well, so I guess I would say never forget your passion. And what what makes getting up and making sure every day is your best day happen. So if you feel like you're stuck in the corporate world or you're in that hamster tube or, you know, the nonprofit just isn't making it, then there's always time, hopefully for you to be able to follow your passion. Now, I had a long wait to do that. Yeah, you know, throughout my career, but still, during my career, I was able Thio be visual, be creative and hopefully make an impact. So I would say, Well, you might set something aside for a while. Go back to it. Don't be afraid to go back to it and have the confidence that you can step into it against Yeah, And you know, if you need more training, you want more training, be a sponge. That's be a sponge. That's what I would say

Lynn:   1:33:25
because that's one of my passions is learning. Yeah, and that's a hell idea about being better, which means you gotta be uncomfortable, which means you're gonna be doing things you're gonna have to listen. You're gonna have to solve problems, do things you've never done before. So, like steaks. But my steps, if you're gonna be a beginner, if you're learning your even The Masters were making mistakes. They just get through them a little bit quicker. So I think that's a brilliant, broken piece of advice. I know I had somebody in one of my classes who was a songwriter and a singer and a corporate guy, and he could not imagine playing the guitar on the side. He had made a decision that the only way he could do music was if he was a musician on tour. And I said, Well, what would happen if you didn't believe that? What would happen if you just make music because you're passionate about making music and you did it for your friends and you did it at night? And you know, I said, you obviously have. You know, you have a job. You probably aren't gonna go be the next Eric Clapton, so you know, at least not tomorrow. So what would happen if you just didn't assume that? And it was so interesting is that you know, there's that look in somebody's eyes when the light bulb goes off and I saw him say, Oh, well, I could totally do that. I said, Okay, do that And he came back. Writer said that was the best thing I've ever done because he loved making music. And, you know, he probably had a dad that said, You know, you'll never make a living at that. So go get a good job. You know, we do. You always do that to ourselves and to me, that's what getting on getting off your leash means I can't wait to read the book. Okay. We may have to call it. Get off your leash. Okay, Lady towards that. You love that, Todd.

Julie:   1:35:09
I love that we had a lot of

Lynn:   1:35:10
people love that title. Might be the time of the book. So anything else before we go? Hey,

Julie:   1:35:15
this has just been terrific. This is

Lynn:   1:35:17
really fun. So tell everybody how to find you on Facebook. Twitter if you have it. If somebody wants to look up bright as photography, how does somebody find you?

Julie:   1:35:28
Well, on Facebook, I'm bright eyes, photos by truly cool. Okay. And my website is www bride ice photos. D c dot com. Okay, they say for District of Columbia, right? And on Twitter, I'm underscore Julie Gould, g o u l d on one

Lynn:   1:35:53
work. So J U l I v i g o u l d on Twitter, right? Good. Well, for people who want that magical photo shoot with their dogs, especially up if they don't want you traveling up in the D c area.

Julie:   1:36:05
That's right. Then you know I traveled here. I am late. Lore.

Lynn:   1:36:09
This is so great having you here. So thanks for doing this. Thank you, Limb. Awesome. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now, what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less off. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast. And, of course, subscribe and write it on the different APS that you're using. Because that's how others will find it. Now I hope you go and do something very fun today