#17 Jen Maneely: The Non-Drama of Getting Back On the Horse

Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For this episode, I'm speaking with Jen Maneely, who is the founder and president of Maneely consulting. And she's also the author of dear parents strategies to help your loved one through addiction. You probably already know if you listen to this podcast, she also happens to be my daughter. We've done several podcasts together over the years talking about our story, through her addiction and our adventures of working together as a mother daughter team. And this is an ongoing saga of us riding horses together. A little over a month ago, we did a podcast about how her moment of vulnerability changed everything. When we went to go do a trail ride with my instructor, Lynn Brown, we're back for around two. For a very important reason. This time. We're answering the question, did anything really change? Because we did that last podcast right after? So the question is, did anything change? Was it an illusion? Or was it just on the surface? If you have not listened to that first podcast, I do think it's worth your time to go back and listen to Episode 16. Both to get context for what we talked about in this one. And also, in that one, we do talk about how Jen made it to the other side of fear. So this episode, we go even deeper into her behind the scenes thinking, her thoughts, her feelings, her actions. And especially we go behind the constant balancing act we all have around, going for our goals, but also living and staying in the present moment. We can either be too future focused, or too, now focused. And somewhere in the middle is the magic balance. Jen does a marvelous job in this episode of teasing out how she walked that very tightrope. The second time she went for a trail ride that might not have ever made it out onto the trail. We also dive deeply into dealing with a kind of fear you don't want to show hiding fear has consequences and showing it does too. Yet we usually don't have a choice when fear presents its ugly head. What are we supposed to do? We get kicked into survival mode, it's sometimes usually not a choice. So this conversation talks about that other side of fear and it's a very different concept than overcoming fear or hiding it. I would love to hear what you think about this conversation. All you have to do is go to the podcast page on my website at Lynn karns comm and click the Send a voicemail button it's over there on the right hand side. You can see it it's just super easy to do you just click it and your voicemails help me know what to bring you in future episodes. And of course, I would love it if you like this episode to share it with your colleagues and friends. I hope you enjoy this episode with Jin Maneely. Jan, welcome to the podcast.

Thank You are welcome. Welcome back. Right,

it actually should have been Welcome back. Because what we're here to do is, this is something we never get to do, in general is look at sort of the before and after. And I might even think about this program today is it's almost like watching one of those TV shows, you know, where they show you the big mess, the house that needs the new roof, or the driveway that needs to be fixed or you know, they come in and do it, you know, frame off restoration or whatever in a car. And that's what today is, is it's almost like the reveal of what happens after after going through the mess. So what we're doing today for everybody to know is we did a podcast not long ago, together about Jim's experience going to ride a horse on a trail and having things not go as planned at all. Give us a quick recap of what happened that day.

Well, so just a recap in obviously y'all can go back and listen to the full story on the previous podcast but just to highlight everything it was basically a lot of things with the horses were happening that put a lot of pressure that put me in survival mode and put me in a very kind of a vulnerable place a scary place a place in which caused me to get rather emotional, which anyone that knows me knows that it's not my most favorite thing to do. I don't think it's anybody's favorite thing to do. But it certainly is something that I steer very clear from I've gotten really good at hiding my emotions. But on this day, I just couldn't hide what was going on.

Well, and and let me just interrupt as your mother likes to think that I can read nuance and subtlety and people's emotions and so forth as you are damn good at hiding. Like you show no signs of what's going on inside of you. Which means you probably should play poker whereas I cannot play poker because it's all on my face.

Right? Well, you know, I'm a good poker player too, because I can I can keep keep those things that most people can't keep. I it's like a duck on top of the water, right? feets going crazy. But on the on the top side, it's just very smooth sailing, like, no, nothing is going on. And, and I'm a really good pretender at pretending like everything is okay. I'm like, I'm totally confident and cool. And so when all of that kind of shatters and falls apart, people were a little surprised at it. Because when I get to the ability, or when I have the inability to hide anymore, it's like a cliff. It's like, all of a sudden, I go from, from everyone thinks I'm okay to I am completely falling apart. And they don't even get to see all of the sequence of events of what's happening. So it's like, it just, it's it's a big leap, right.

So you're not, you're not a dimmer switch, your spotlight comes on because I remember the day of the event, which we still haven't completely summarized, but we were getting ready. We were saddling, the horses are preparing. We were grooming I can't remember at what stage. But all of a sudden, everything was fine. In my mind. I mean, yes, we were dealing with dancing horses, dancing prints, and because there were some new horses in the bar, and they were trying to figure out, we were there to all of a sudden you are running out of the barn cry.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's how it happens. Yeah,

no, you look fine. In fact, almost disinterested. You know, and then you were flooded. So quick overview tell again, people what happened that day so we can explain why what happened the next time we went with so different

different, um, well, so like you said, we had a bunch of dancing horses, I have always been terrified. I'm a big animal lover, I am and I connect well with animals. But obviously, with animals, you can't really hide what's going on, on the inside, like you can with with humans. They have a tendency to to gauge a whole lot better what was really happening but you know, I'm I think I'm smartly terrified of really big animals that could kill me by accident, if they kick step or whatever. And so on this day, we had some put some pressure happening with horses playing dominance games with each other and little me feeling like I was stuck in the middle of these 1200 pound animals. And I was trying to play it cool. Like, I try to play everything cool. I was trying to not let you guys know how scared I was. Because all I wanted to do was get on that damn horse and get the hell out of that barn and go ride the horse, like we were intending. And it's like, dude, I just need to get out of here. That's all like, once once we're out, like everything will be fine.

Now I have to pause because that that right, there is something that how I wanted to get on the horse thing. Yeah. It took me a minute to realize that, you know, this rushing through the grooming that I used to do, and sort of not taking time to connect and not taking time to pay attention to my horse, so that I could just do what I came to do, which was just get on the horse. Yeah. It makes me think about in our work a lot of times what we think is the goal, or what we while we're rushing to the goal, we're actually missing the point of the goal. Yeah. And it was interesting because once it once I got thrown and then once I start to, you know, got to working with horses on the ground. I had a an instructor say to me, do you want to ride that? This is while the horse was shaking his head and kicking his feet and whatever. And I was like, Well, no, but once I get on, he won't do that. Right? She goes, No, whatever you got there is what you're gonna get. Yeah, so it's funny how we think oh, I'm just gonna go get on the horse and everything will be fine. Just like I'm gonna go Mike. My goal and everything. We'll be fine. And then we wonder why it isn't all fine. It's because we left a lot of Swiss cheese, a lot of holes on the way to the goal. So Alright, carry on that I'd love to share.

But it's but it's all very true, right? So, you know, I had I had the end result, in my mind in the out the outcome, I was only focused on the outcome of what what my, what my agenda was not not what was happening around me. And that's what really caused a lot of that pressure was that I forgot about being in the moment, present dealing with what was right in front of me, I was already at the end. So that's where a lot of the, I guess, the disassociation came from, and the disconnecting and the feeling or looking like I was just interested in in that space, that's where that kind of came from. And so yeah, you know, to sum it up, it's like, I ran out of the barn crying at the end of it, because I could have been all together and I felt like, in moments as survival and insecure, I I was not getting what I needed. In that moment from anyone the safety and the security, the same thing that that the horses are after. I don't feel like I was really getting. And I was I was afraid, but that fear came out more in a pissed off. Moment of of F this. f u. f this, you know, a there was a lot of curse words going on in my head about that fear. Oh, um, and, you know, we had Lynn, who is very pointed in her direction sometimes.

And that's not made land that's instructor

led the instructor and I was feeling like a scolded 10 year old kid. Even though that's not what she was doing, but when I was in the heat of the heat of the moment, yeah, um, I was feeling already scolded, going, wait, like, you're not supporting me and giving me what I needed. But it came out very differently. Obviously, that's hindsight being 2020. And being able to reflect on it. That's what, that's what it was. But in that moment, when I was in the emotions at all was coming through a big jumbled, angry, fearful mess of not a whole lot of clarity happening. And so when I ran out, it was if I was pissed off, and it took me a minute to gather myself and figure out what was really going on with me. And, you know, I think that's there's a lot to this story. And, you know, I go much deeper into into all the backstory in that other podcast, but so

so obviously, something went down, and people can guess the other podcast.

Yeah. And in, in the end result was was that I was able to go back in the barn after cleaning myself up a little bit and, and still being still being in a place of emotional and tears, but being able to ask for what I needed. Because I gave myself that chance to really be vulnerable and step out of the anger and say, what is really going on? And, and that's what I was able to go in and just tell you guys who had no idea because like, like we stated, I'm not a dimmer switch, I am a spotlight person. And even though there was signs of building y'all were not able to see the buildup of that moment. So I had to fill in the gaps for you guys to let you know, what the buildup really was. And then how, what I needed from you to support me in the future, which was very hard. It's very hard in those moments to ask for what you need.

Well, yeah, because what you did and and i think i've had literally 1000s of experiences where once I got emotionally flooded and kind of went down that rabbit trail, there was no arresting it. It's a little bit like when you're on a steep slope like on snow or you see a skier going down and they are on something very steep and once they quit skiing and start falling there's nothing there arrest their fault. Yeah. And it's like a one way street it until you get to the bottom and you have Hope you're not too crumbled at the at the bottom right? Yeah, in this case, somehow you were able to arrest and redirect your thoughts in the heat of the moment. And under the pressure because you were outside for five or 10 minutes, we didn't stop working with the horses. We didn't stop tacking them up. As far as Lynn and I were concerned, we didn't know what was going on. But we we weren't waiting for you to go to the bottom of the mountain and be crushed. And somehow you did manage to arrest and redirect your thoughts to come back in. Which probably has a lot to do with how your next time on the horse, which is what we're here to talk about what so well, but before we get to how the next time What so well, and how interesting that was, what did you do to arrest and redirect your thoughts?

well, so, this, this is interesting. And, you know, I talked a little bit more about this in in the other podcast, but I had been listening to Bernays brown daring greatly. And yeah, and it was, it's all about shame and vulnerability, that book, it was great. And so I literally had her voice in my head, basically, knowing that this was an opportunity to what she would call dare greatly, and allow myself to be vulnerable. So instead of doing what I've always done, and didn't know any other way, they had no, like, there was no any other way for me to, to deal with these situations, except to completely disconnect and just wait for it over. Like I said, in the other podcast, it was like, I had my day already planned out of going, I'm going home, I'm gonna go watch Netflix for the rest of the day. And then I'm gonna go to sleep, and this day will be over, but I needed that day to be over. And this was in the morning, right? So I'm like, Dude, this day is done, his day is is, is gone, and fine, I just need to go to bed and reset. But when I had her voice in the head, in my head, um, basically, her book was was very much diving deep into that vulnerability of asking certain questions, what's going on? What do I need, allowing the uncomfortable feelings of what I was personally experiencing, without projecting it into someone else. So the anger that I was experiencing towards the external factors, it was more of focused on internally, what was happening. And obviously, this was a buildup of a lot of different trainings coming in to that moment. So it wasn't just burn a brown, it was all of the work that I have been doing free years of really learning how to deal with my emotions, all the different, you know, we've talked about Bruce, on this podcast, and some of his episodes, but a lot of the work that we have done with him, a lot of the work that I've done in other ways, it's like it all came together in this one special moment, knowing you've been training for this.

Yeah, and, and again, this is we've, we've done a couple of podcasts. And I've been on on his podcast, Bruce Anderson of nature's view, who works a lot with how to be present under pressure, and really talks about the three missing pieces and so forth. So you can go listen to one of those podcasts if you want to hear more about that. And I'm also calling to mind, by the way, you know, we also had on the podcast, Warwick Schiller, who talks about the moment he heard about Rene Brown, that being sort of a life changing moment for him. And he had it was interesting. And if you follow his videos, you actually see a transformation occur from being a horse trainer, who was very good with understanding and reading horses, to being on a journey of exactly what you're talking about understanding and being vulnerable, and really coming to understand what horses are communicating with us. Yeah, choosing to listen to it. And then watching how much safer it makes them feel, which also helps him personally heal. Yeah. And that little sequence that sounds so quickly said and so simple, is he has a journey on our podcast called the journey on podcast, highly recommend it, which talks about his own journey through these things. So what we're talking about here is so much more than just, you know, a day with horses, because you accomplish something big for yourself that day to be able to arrest and read Direct course, I'm just sitting over there looking at land going, I don't know what happened. I think maybe we hit a mommy button.

Right? Yeah. And But well, and in a way we we did I was definitely in a pattern of myself. And of course you've only ever seen me check out like that when it's been with me and you. That's right. And and so in that context you're like, Well, the only other time I've ever seen you act like this is like when we're like kind of in an argument

having a mother daughter fight. I would call I recall early on when we started working together, and you were trying to record my video. And you told me to do something. And I I made the face the mom face? That Yeah,

the hashtag mom face.

And little did I even know I was making that face. It's my frustrated. Like, I can't figure this out. I don't know what to do. It's basically my version of what was happening to you with the bar and the bar, right? I wanted to run out of the room going I can't do this. I don't know. And instead, I triggered you. And next thing I knew you were running to the bathroom and and in neither case had either one of us in that case or in the barn or any of these situations. Have we done anything intentional to each other? No, we just had gotten our button pushed. Yeah, you know, our rules. As I say in my new book, it's coming out soon dancing the tightrope. It's our rules, not our tools that get us in trouble.

Yeah, yeah. And it's so interesting, because, you know, we, on that day, we did end up talking about it, right? So we got a chance to actually work through the mom face. And now because I was able to recognize that for what it was right? Like, hey, you gave me a face that had nothing to do with anything that I perceived it as that face now does not mean as much to me, like it doesn't trigger me as much. But it doesn't mean that I still don't have my other buttons that get that get pushed, because you've given that face before. And now I can look at it and kind of laugh and go ha there's there's that face, but it doesn't hit that button because I was able to kind of, you know, talk it out work through it, and so on. And that's kind of back to what this was, was I had a pivotal moment of looking at a situation that I'm like, well, this is normally how I would do this. I did something different. And it Was I gay, I got a different result. So yeah, it was. But it's like when you're in a pattern. And you've always done something in a certain way You don't know how else to handle things. And doing something different. And even recognizing that you need to do something different, is highly uncomfortable. This is why we don't do it, right. It's very, it's very uncomfortable. And I was very uncomfortable the whole time. But the outcome was a whole lot of a much more productive outcome for the rest of my day. Like I didn't work out for the rest of that day. So

well. Before I know, you want to tell your story about what happened when we came the next time and I got to tell what you said in the game. But first I there was something I had a belief completely obliterated that day in the barn. When you came back in, after you've done what ever you had done to arrest and redirect your thoughts and came in and ask for help. And Lana actually did something very interesting. She asked you to go stand by your horse. As you were describing what happened. Yeah. And, of course, fear was the driving factor. And there's a belief that says you Don't ever show a horseshoe fear,

or animals

period, like and just animals, right. And I'm still trying to make sense of this one. Because the same belief would carry with me at work. It's like I called it my I've got this face. Mm hmm. Like never show that you don't know. Never show that you need help. Never ask questions, especially ones that you think you should know the answer to. Just keep yourself looking like you've got it and everything will be okay. Yeah. And yet when somebody would say to me, I've got this. You know, I always was suspicious and a little bit of that understanding came that day while you were standing there. She had you go stand next to the horse and she was reading the horse for signs of relaxation for signs that he felt safe for signs that he was ready to be your partner. And he wasn't before you ran out of the bar and he was getting his his boiling point. He wasn't boiling. But his his water was simmering. Yeah. And it started cooling down immediately while you were standing there talking about your fear and What I came to realize in limb verified This is it's the it's not the fear itself. It's the incongruence that cause animals problems. Yeah, I'm saying one thing, but I can tell you're feeling another. Right. And it's the same with that I've got this face. You know, it's like, but I can tell you don't have it. So can you just tell me the truth so we can work out the real problem?

Well, isn't that the world of like, corporate, right? Don't show anybody you're afraid. But when you actually have real things that you should be scared of. So you have corporate right, so you have mergers? Well, what does that mean about the jobs? Yeah, you have what happens to my job, right? Big organizational change? Well, what happens to my job, and that puts us in survival mode, when you have a boss or a leader that isn't that really is pretending like everything's gonna be okay, when you know, damn well, that things may not be okay. And they're sharing that message of Oh, no, everything's gonna be fine. It's that in congruence? Yeah. And it's like, well, you would actually do a lot of people a lot of a lot more favors by really having those difficult conversations, knowing that you can't share everything, as a boss as a leader. You may not everyone has privy to all the information, right? Yeah. But acknowledging the fear is like, it's, it's okay to be afraid. And I think that's what, you know, we don't show animals our fear. But we can't hide our fear either.

Well, and the thing is, it's the, like, Hakka Newman talked about this in her podcast about that whole question of Well, yeah, I know, things I can't share with everybody. But the other side of it is, yes, their stuff. Yes, we're changing, and you can handle it. Yeah. And I will keep you informed. And that little twist of the message of, yes, there's a thing and you can handle it, I think is, is the and I will help you and we will actually solve the real problem and not pretend like it's not a problem. Well, instead up,

I love to, to let people know what to expect as much as I can. I think people do very well, when they can get their heads wrapped around things. So, you know, sharing sharing information, and just knowing what's really going on, in in that role, I think, is it's just a really powerful thing. Because even if someone's job is on the line, no one should have to feel like they're gonna have a splash of cold water and all of a sudden get fired and have no where to go. Because you did not know how you didn't want to have that conversation earlier. I just don't find that to be very fair. But essentially, that's what I was almost kind of doing with the horse that day. Right? And with you guys, I wasn't allowing y'all the opportunity to support me a lot sooner. I could have said at any point. You know, I've always been really afraid of horses. How, like in terms of walking behind them, right? How do I feel safe? walking behind horses?

Right. Which, which was one of the big hiccups you had? Well, yeah, we had three horses that were actually not in cross ties, but that were able to spend their rear ends around 180 degrees. Yeah, from one wall to the other. And when they're feeling uncomfortable, they did that a lot. So they would actually turn and face their fear. But oftentimes as they turn and face their fear their butts one right by you. It could have kicked.

And because I did like and that was that put me in a real survival mode situation, like a real, I am afraid for my life, which is not productive.

And by the way, that's not that's not just a false belief. People do get kicked, people do get killed. And yeah, there are more and there are safety measures that you can take at the same time, which she briefed you on afterwards. Yeah. So Alright, so I think we've built up enough on that. So the punch line is later that day, you actually worked through it got on the horse and we went up to the arena. Yeah, where you were actually able to work with him inside a fence. You know, with a little bit of obstacles and she actually even got you to be able to trot him around a little bit which is really cool. But but we never felt ready to go out on the trail. Right and the thing The thing I love about working with Lynn is that these that her horses are Not numbed out dumbed out, nose to tail trail horses. These are horses that actually listen to you. She is teaching you how to actually ride them. And when she takes you on a trail ride, yes, she is using the herd dynamics of the leader horse and the ones in between to have everybody sort of fall into line. But it's it's you riding a horse under your direction. It's, uh, you know, you're in a way a dynamic duo. So we never made it out that day, because it's not a small thing to do that.

No. Well, we had also eaten up a lot of time.

Yeah, we were right. We were at a time. Yeah. And I will have to say, I've been there many, many times, almost never when I go work with when I go at least once a week for my own lessons. And these are both writing lessons and frankly, coaching lessons for me. net, almost never does it go like I think it's gonna go like if I go thinking, Okay, I can't wait, I'm going out on the trail, we're going to face that ditch today, or we're going to do this thing or whatever. It never works that way. So we did book another session. I've and I've been out there with other people on guest rides, where we never got out on the trail. But we said, All right, we're gonna keep trying. We'll get on the trail, we'll get

on the trail one of these days

So we booked another lesson. And we came around the corner and there's this this place on the road where you come in, and you get a view of her barn and the hill and the horses and sort of the whole thing comes into view. And as we were coming through the gate, what did you say? You remember?

Yeah, I vaguely remember it was something Do you remember? exactly say, say it if you remember exactly what it was? Or? I said, I just I said something to the extent of I just really, I just really don't want to want to have what happened last time happened again? Well,

I think your exact words were as we were coming through deep sigh you said? I'm just not sure I really want to learn anything today.

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I did say that. Because I was, you know, I had so many valuable learning experiences from the last time but it was so took an emotional toll on me, because so does. But so I was like, you know, I think learning mode is great. And I was like, I just don't want any hard lessons today. I really don't like I don't want to have to learn. I just, I just want to be here.

It was funny, because I think it was a little bit of the vestiges of I just want to go get on the horse and get on the trail. What what, can't we just do that?

Yeah. And I just was not wanting to have like a repeat, I did not. I mean, I will say I don't ever wake up in the morning and go, I want to be vulnerable and cried. But I certainly was like, I don't want to have this happen two times in a row. Because at that point, it starts becoming a pattern. And I don't know, if I can keep coming back. If I keep ending up in tears, like, I'm not gonna put, like, as great of a learning experience as it is. I don't want to keep doing something if I'm going to end in tears all the time. Right? It's right. So so I think I was a little concerned, which I didn't share with you at the time. But I was a little concerned that if we had another repeat, I was just not ever gonna want to come back. I just Well, I didn't want to do it.

I don't and I don't do that. I could I could totally see that. And of course, you know, with some of my progress with Bruce, I had to go through a couple of those sessions. Yeah. And actually, what's interesting with that is you know, I go down and work with him a fair bit and he works very differently. But I have actually reached the point where it's like, Okay, I'm I want to go in and get more pressure now. Yeah, because I know I'm going to go through all that stuff. But I like what's on the other side of it so much. That it's like he asked me last time when I went down to see him he said what do you want? I said more pressure, please. Hmm. And but but that particular day I remember seeing looking at you going I don't know if it's possible to go through this gate and not learn something

well, obviously you're going to learn something right yeah. And and I did I had a lot of a lot of learning lessons that I did not end up in tears over. But I think that was that's goes back to some of the expectations right? It's like I go through that gate. And I'm like, I just want to get on the fucking horse.

Or I just want to finish this thing. I want to get this report out or I would just wait yeah, be able to declare victory or whatever. It's like, we just want to be through the virus I just want to be done. And that's the illusion is like there's no done.

There's no there is no done but it is like a different mindset when you go into Something where you're like, I am going to learn something, Today, I am going to put myself under pressure. And sure, I may discover things that are uncomfortable, versus when it's like, I just really just want to get like, this is my goal. And I think, in a lot of ways, that's where the balance of life can kind of start coming in a little bit where you're like, you have to remember to stay present and stay in learning mode. And also have a goal in mind. And then allow whatever actually transpires to unfold as it as the universe once it's unfold, right. That's a lot of balancing acts that you're doing. Every day, when you focus on, I want to go, but I can't force the goal. And I may, that goal may be disrupted. And now I feel completely unbalanced in now I'm learning things. And it's just, it's it's a hard,

it's a humbling thing that I'm not getting anywhere. That's the Yeah, especially towards my goal. And so that you're exactly right, that is a huge, as one of the balancing acts that I talked about in the dancing the tightrope book is exactly that thing. So that's where you were is like, okay, I felt out of balance the time before. And I don't want to, you know, have that happen again. Yeah. So, now, this was a very different ride. a very different experience from the minute we got out of the car and went to go catch the horses.

Oh, yeah. And you know, it, it was one of those where it was the same thing could have very well happened, right. But luckily, we didn't have some of the added pressures that we had last time. But sometimes that doesn't matter. There could be other things that that go along. external pressures.

Well, let's be clear. And this this might not look like pressure, but it was pressure. You we didn't have the extra horses. So your horse wasn't Dancing and prancing, he was actually in the field, laying down with his head on the ground.

Yeah, that was and

that's no position to go catch and halter a horse, because he when he gets up, you got flailing hopes, again,

right when I did. So that that was one of the first lessons, right, um, and so this horse is laying on the ground, Lynn, the trainer is kind of watching over my shoulder going, just put the halter on him, but stay away from his legs, and she's trying to like get me to position myself in such a way that the his legs aren't gonna kick out and hurt me when he tries to get up. And I'm like, whenever I went to go put the halter on. He was he did not want me to do that. He kept tucking his head in so that I couldn't put the halter on. But yeah, he was not making any moves. But when he was tucking his head, he was forcing me to be in an unsafe position where exactly where Lynn was telling me not to be. And I'm like, I don't like I don't like this at all. Like, this is like, I don't want to do this. Again, here I am feeling very unsafe. But in that moment, I guess. I was checking in with myself going, how am I going to, like, what am I going to do to feel safe? How am I going to do this in? And she asked the same question out loud. And I was like, you know, I'd really rather him just like, be standing while I tried to do this. So then I don't have to worry about his legs kicking out. And fair enough. Yeah. And you know, the whole time, she's, I think in my head because she's like, we'll just put the holster on when he's laying down that that was the way that I was gonna have to do that. But that's not the way that I really felt comfortable and safe. So I did have to take a step back and just re evaluate the situation and go, how am I going to have the horse feel safe? And how am I going to feel safe? At the same time, like my safety is just as important as the horse if not more so. Right? So that was one of the big lessons where I got to apply that lesson from the previous time that ended me and in tears. I got to apply that safety lesson to this situation right out pretty much from from the jump was what do I need to do to feel safe and so I gave enough pressure for the horse to stand up and I was very confident I was like, Look, you're just gonna stand up and do this. And so I kind of You know, did some moves and the horse got up and I was able to stay out of his way. And now I was easily able to put the halter on. In that way with both of us with both of us, both me and the horse, feeling feeling safe and comfortable. He was much better. Yeah, in that situation. So that was the first. That's the first lesson of applying what I had learned from the, from the past time.

Well, and what's what I, what I recall, we took them into the barn, we groomed them, we tacked them, you, you had a relaxed horse from the minute you started.

Yeah, he walked with me very, very gracefully out of the field into the barn, I could tell that we were connected and bonded as we were walking, which was a was a slightly different experience than than last time, you know, like he he wanted me to be his his leader. And so I think that was just a really powerful moment. So we get them in the barn. And yeah, I mean, I was feeling very, a lot more comfortable. I was able to walk around the horse, I did do it like a check in with with Lynn, the trainer. Before I had groomed one side. And for my for my security and my safety, even though I kind of knew what the answer was. But I just wanted an affirmation, I guess. And learning to ask for what I needed to feel safe from Lynn was I looked at her and I was like, okay, you can read this horse, I'm okay to walk behind the horse, right? Like, he's not in any sort. He looks calm, but and she looked at him, she's like, yes, you are safe to walk behind the horse. And so I was walking behind the horse comfortably because, you know, all I needed was her to, to tell me if there was any signs?

Well, and you know, this is this is a little bit of an aside, but I have asked the same question of many people about their horses, and what one of the things I learned is they have the most leverage at the end of the kick, not at the beginning. So as long as you have a hand on them, and you're really close to them, even if they do kick you they're not going to kick you. It's not going to hurt. Add not not as much as if you're right there at the end where like the end, you know, the bottom of the swing of a golf swing? Yeah, you know, you strike the ball at the hardest part, you know? So yeah, you, you, you, she quickly showed you how to keep your hand on.

Yeah, and, and easily. Yeah. And so we were just, you know, then it became a grooming where I had both things in the back of my mind, right of what the goal was, and how to be present and be mindful of what the horse needed. And what I needed. So I was checking in with all of these at the whole time. Yeah. So that was a very different thing of how am I present with the intentions of an outcome and a goal.

So it's interesting, because that just calls it call to mind. You know, I'm on Netflix bingeing on Heartland, the TV show, which I love, it's, and it talks a lot about the land actually turned me on to it, but it's, you know, talks a lot about this way of working with horses, where the horses feelings actually matter. Yeah. And somebody was trying to rush the train, and he had a goal to get on his horse really fast to brand new horse one day in the show. And jack, the patriarch of the family comes up and he goes, Yeah, he goes, let's see if I can get this right. He said, Yeah, come at it, like you've got 15 minutes. It'll take all day. come at it, like you've got all day. And it'll take 15 minutes.

Well, and how often though, do we sometimes do this where we will minimize either our own feelings, or we minimize the other person? Right? So it's, it's, it's a pair? Like I'm thinking about like in the corporate world, right? How many times do either bosses or leaders or co workers, they think that what they are doing is like the most important thing and they almost run over everyone else? Yeah, the process, right. So it's like know what I'm doing has like that takes priority over everything. And that is where there's a balance in that of going. Yes, to me, it takes priority, but also all of these other things. People and what they're doing they matter to

like and what and they're actually doing things oftentimes out of the limelight that are what are enabling you to get your thing done. Right. And if they were to suddenly disappear. Yeah, you know, your job might not be so easy. That's why we won't go all the way down that rabbit trail. But that's one of the things I often will work with people on is helping them connect not only their role to the bigger picture, but to connect everybody's role, like everybody's got apart,

right. And I think sometimes we lose sight of that like no, and it's a it's a, it's a two way street here. And to be in a constant reminder of the two way street is what helps me achieve the actual goal of what I wanted to do. But in a very mindful way. I was kind of like, you know, I would really like to get out on the trail today. But it may or may not happen, which every step we're just gonna see.

And what was interesting is so every step, before we knew it, we were up in the arena. And you were trotting around, like you did the last time. So you had picked up within 30 minutes, maybe 45 minutes of us being there. You were ready, and picked up where we were so and then what did Lynn say we should do?

Well, she asked, she said, so what do we only have X amount of time left? What would you like to do? And she gave options, one of which was to go out on the trail? And my immediate answer was, yes. Let's do it. Yeah.

Yeah. And the fact

it was like a magical threshold had been crossed. When, with our horses, we were walking out of the arena. Mm hmm. And we got past the gate. And I'm like, what, I don't care if all we do is walk down to the barn. We're gonna have to go out on the trail. But the fact that we cross that threshold of young out of that arena, was like, it was it was a it was a magical moment. For me. I was all smiles for the rest. I was smiling anyway, but I was very much all smiles for I couldn't help it. I had the biggest cheesiest grin on my face. And I am not someone that walks around with a smile on their face. No, you are not. I kind of have that like bitch resting face all the time. Right. And yeah, and you know, I'm a little What do they call it? broody? Or not broody? I don't know. But But I don't walk around a lot with a smile. But man, I just, I just couldn't help but have just the biggest damn cheesiest smile on my face, where I felt both, like, accomplished as an adult, but an excited five year old that had just made this like, new discovery of the world. You know, you remember everything is so new and, and bright and shiny. And and when you're five. And that's how I felt I felt both a confident adult and an excited five year old.

So it's a question when you got out. And it's no small thing. By the way, this is a fairly steep road down to the barn. Yeah. And then we actually didn't just do like a wooded trail, what people like to picture is more like a steep gravel road. And then we actually went along a creek but had to cross a road to and then come wait across the road twice to get to the trailer. What did you feel with you and your horse? Like, did you notice any change in him? And did you notice any change in yourself in terms of just the conditions you are operating under?

I'm sure will like like, kind of like the horse. I mean, the horse wants to go out on the trail he did kind of want to do, like his route and where he was, like, most comfortable, which we kind of, we kind of work through that. But the fact that I was willing to remind him the whole time that I was the leader, and we were gonna do things my way, not his way. And I was constantly checking in to remind him as well, which I think, you know, without all of the lessons and training, I probably just would have let him do whatever it was that he wanted to do. It's like Well, we're on we're out on the trail. And generally, you know, you don't really have a whole lot of control on a normal trail ride over your horse like your your the knotel right. So

if you're on a tourist trail ride, it's usually nose to tail until it's not

right.

I had actually been very specific Keep, you want to have him follow my horse, so we don't step in any. There was there was a lot of danger along the way. There were several places where the way to cross a bridge, more than one bridge, we had to make sure he didn't step in holes. The leaves were covering, he had to walk across asphalt.

Yeah, yeah. And and there was definitely a lot of moments in which it was like I had the opportunity to remind him that I was the leader. But also, you know, follow course, he was a little slow. He was he was a little pokey. But I but I think I think well,

you know, it might have felt like he was slow. But you got to remember you had a Tennessee walking horse in front of you lens horses, extra big strides. And I was riding in Arabian. Who really strict steps out. Yeah, so your horse was probably a normal speed, but you want to really fast horses

and racehorses. Well, and and that was that was fine. I just felt I did, I felt very safe. The whole time. I think the horse felt safe the whole time. We were walking in that was the thing was like, I felt like we were in that together. Like we were doing that. Together. It wasn't like me versus the horse. It was that no, we're we're in this together. And I think that was a big change. And it was because of all of the, you know, bonding we had done prior to and just being comfortable. But I felt like I was like, Look, he's scared, I'm scared, we're gonna go out of our way to make each other feel safe. And like we're in this together so

that well, and and frankly, it there's they're just, you know, probably the biggest punch line of the second ride was there was almost no drama, there was

there really wasn't any, any drama, and that that was a great thing, because then it made me more apt to want to come back and increase even more knowledge. So it's like, yes, I do want to learn because not all learnings have to be so I guess dramatic. And I do enjoy learning. I just didn't want all of my learnings to be. But that's, that's, um, you know, another just insight of saying, you like, just because you had this experience doesn't mean you're always going to have this experience. But if you think that you're going to always have this experience, you may very well always have

well, and variance. The thing I know, the thing that strikes me on the other side, and this has been true so many times is once I get through that wall of whatever my old rules are, and get to the other side, I think of it as the other side of fear. Hmm. It's, it isn't nearly as dramatic as you think it's gonna be like it you almost forget all the things it took for you to be there because you've released so much of this stuff that was a hidden hits a hidden wall in a way. So that I thought was worth talking about, you know, I wanted to bring you back to talk about the fact that going back didn't mean that it was always going to be dramatic like that. Right?

Yeah. And no, that was the lesson and I got to apply my learnings in in such a way that now I feel a lot more confident and safe. And I for forever will be able to check in and ask for for what I need. I may not do it perfectly all the time. But I have a different threshold now than I did before just by asking different questions of myself of knowing how to ask someone else. Well, I'm feeling a little unsafe. How do I like is it Okay, are we doing this? Yeah. And that applies not just with horses that applies out into the, into the world world because I feel unsafe a walk so world is unsafe? Well,

I mean, you know, it's and it's not even necessarily that you have to be feeling unsafe, but that you just open to another idea. Yeah, you know, I was out rowing this morning, and I was rolling with a friend and got way out there before I realized my shoulder was acting up again. And a part of me wanted to just limp my way home. But he said, Hey, let me show you a different way to row. So you're not activating that muscle as much. And I had to be receptive and open to that. And you know, I had another two and a half miles to wrote. Yeah, I was really glad I had that other way. But there's a part of me and Oh, the old me would have just limped home and said, I don't want to have to listen to him. Yeah. So it's, it doesn't have to just be not safe. It could just be preventing, you know, a lot more aggravation. Yeah. So anyway, well, I can't thank you enough for coming back to do this. Talk about it. And of course, we will be going back. We're not gonna do a podcast every time you get on a horse but But it is, it is really interesting to kind of continue to explore this learning process. And what is on the other side of that wall of fear. Yeah. Which is where I do you know, I talk about this in that book, the dancing the tightrope book that I'm, you are helping me with By the way, Jennifer's being an incredible editor. This is gonna come out at some point, but we are still in the process of pulling the pieces together. But you know, there's a lot of good stuff that happens if you can get on the other side of it. Yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, I'm so grateful to have had you on the podcast. And by the way, I would be remiss to stop without saying you have your own podcast. It's called the unbreakable boundaries, pocket podcast. Yep, you have amazing guests, you all are talking about early recovery and other ways of learning. And by the way, to some degree, all of a sudden, so what we're talking about here is recovery. We're trying to recover our true selves and not have to use all these other methods, oftentimes, which are chemical to survive in this world. So how can people find you,

um, you can go check out my website, if you want to learn more about what I do with people in early recovery and stuff. And this is talking about addiction. It's MAneely consulting.com. And then you can also go check out the podcast at www.unbreakable boundariespodcast.com. So that's great.

Well, it's worth it's absolutely worth listening to. And you do have a presence on Facebook, if I'm not mistaken. And LinkedIn

I do? Yeah. Did I? Really? Yeah. Just add me as a friend Jen Maneely posts all my stuff. Under under that and in on LinkedIn, as well as Jennifer Maneely. So yeah, yeah. So thank you a lot. A

lot of good stuff coming out of there are a lot. I mean,

yeah.

And you're an amazing podcast host. So there's a lot of pressure on me to be as good a host as you are when you're doing your podcast. So thanks for letting us switch the mic around letting me be the host.

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, Jen, we'll go forth and have a great day, everybody. Look forward to seeing you out there in the Facebook, LinkedIn land and on the podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the creative spirits on life podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.