Dr Amanda Rebar - Habits that Help

Amanda Rebar - Habits that Help

[00:00:00] Nick: Amanda Rebar welcome. And thank you so much for taking time out to have a chat with me.

[00:00:05] Amanda: Of course. Looking forward to it.

[00:00:07] Nick: Me too 

[00:00:08] .Could, I ask you, could you talk a little bit about your path to date and what led to you doing the work that you're doing at moment?

[00:00:17] Amanda: Yeah. I. Started getting curious about research when I was an undergraduate and came in and wanted to study psychology. My mom is a retired, psych nurse at the veterans hospital in salt lake city. And I thought I'd go into the same path as her. but I'm much more analytically driven. I think I really like.

[00:00:41] Finding logical step-by-step solutions to problems. And when I figured out we could actually use that to understand human behavior and motivation something so complex. , I knew pretty straight away that's, what I wanted to do is use mostly quantitative approaches to understand why people do what they do and don't do what they should do.

[00:01:04] So, yeah, so then I continue degree, went to Penn state, was supervised by the lovely David Conroy in sport and exercise, psychology focussed, pretty hard on the idea that everybody wants to change people's physical activity and sport performance behavior through goals, and through trying to, have people take steps to achieve their goal.

[00:01:27] And then they're done and with physical activity, Don't want people to be done. We want them to continue to do it for their whole life. So we took on a different approach and started thinking about what, the more automatic influences on behavior are besides our goals and self-monitoring. So we looked a lot at habits and a lot at, what we call automatic evaluation, some of the biases that influence our behavior and the more I stay in the field, the more I'm realizing.

[00:01:55] A lot of our day to day behaviors are reliant on what we do automatically. Our defaults are habits temptation, our automatic biases. So yeah, I've stuck relatively close to that. Did a post-doc at, which is what brought me to Queensland and have worked with, people with depressive and anxiety symptoms, trying to get them more active through interventions.

[00:02:20] And that's when it really hit me that. When you're feeling down or when something's going on, where you're not in a fully positive state, mentally, all our theories of motivation went completely out the windows. 

[00:02:36] So I'm trying really hard to make the field catch up to the idea that we need to be representative of people in different states in terms of mentally well, and also different populations that can't by Fitbit 

[00:02:52] Nick: There's a couple of things in there that I wanted to touch on, one is that Mum must've had some amazing stories to share with you. I imagine

[00:03:00] from 

[00:03:01] Amanda: She said it, she liked the job because it made her home life seems so much more normal 

[00:03:06] Nick: that's it. 

[00:03:07] Amanda: lowered her expectations for us growing up. So that was useful. 

[00:03:10] Nick: Yeah. And secondly, you talked about automatic evaluations. I know I've said to a couple of people that when you're in a, depressed state or you're highly anxious, the thought, I guess, that you could do something so simple as moving or for a walk have a benefit and. You might even enjoy it.

[00:03:31] this whole preconceived notion that it's to be painful. will be more painful than the moment. talk a bit about evaluations and how they work , with habit formation?

[00:03:42] Amanda: Yeah. And I think, that point struck me really prominently when we started doing interventions with people, with depression symptoms. And initially we took the traditional approach and educated them and said, here's how you set goals. And here's the type, the exact amount of activity you need, how to do it.

[00:04:00] And I actually have it printed out behind me on my wall and right. A quote from some of the qualitative interviewing we did at the end of this. And someone said, I'm sorry, I can't even get out of bed in the morning. And you want me to go for a run? And it really, really stuck with me that yeah, we have to meet people where they are and the theories they're called dual process models.

[00:04:24] And it's the idea that there's kind of two types of influences on your behalf. These cognitive ones where you know, that exercise is good for you. And you know, you make plans based on your values and your perspectives and what you want out of life, usually long-term goals. Um, but then there's also this automatic part of you that just is more your default in your survival.

[00:04:48] And it's, what's driving you when things aren't going right. Or you're really stressed, or you're not specifically focusing on that goal at that time. And, and automatic evaluations are one of those constructs. So the automatic evaluations or your mind's kind of shortcut the pairs, behaviors or stimulus or people or different ideas with being good or bad and evolution early, we link that back to the fight or flight response, right?

[00:05:16] You want to go away from things that are going to eat you and go towards things that you can eat or have sex with. And so you kind of have. Um, default approach or avoidance responses to things. And some theorists argue that that's through these automatic evaluations, how closely does your mind link, whatever opportunity you're looking at, um, as being something good that should be approached or something that's bad that should be avoided.

[00:05:44] And, um, about geez, about 11 years ago now, um, David Conaway and I found evidence that people do have these general. Um, automatic biases to either see physical activity as something that people approach or avoid, and that, that can predict their behavior. So not shockingly, those who link physical activity more with something that's good.

[00:06:08] Tend to be more active than those who link it more with something that's bad. And that's just, we argue that that's just because when opportunities to be active, Um, if you have that general tendency to approach those types of things, then you may be more likely to take that on it, as opposed to having, um, having it be something you dread that you need to overcome that automatic bias

[00:06:32] Nick: Wow. I'm trying to piece my thoughts together. So they sound articulate and less monosyllabic. So is there area to work with like, automatic evaluations?

[00:06:44] What Springs to mind from someone doesn't know anything about it is mindfully aware, I guess, and beginning to challenge, the preconceived that it would be painful to walk or whatever. Insert activity here. So is that an area that can work with in the life?

[00:07:05] Amanda: Yeah, I think the two approaches used to try to change these types of automatic biases. And one is exactly, like you said, is this mindful approach where you go as long as you're aware of them and you can find self-regulation in the right moments, you'll be fine. So if , You're looking, , we just got out of, doing some traveling in Brisbane and you come out of the train station and there stairs, or right next to you, there's the escalators that go directly up.

[00:07:31] And just those quick behavioral choices. If that's when you can muster up some self-control and go, oh really, I should do some activity. All it is is a few seconds to make that effortful decision and then decisions made. So, , like you said, some Interventions where we try to target people just to go, Hey, just a heads up.

[00:07:51] You might automatically try to steer clear of this stuff. so be aware of that and see if you can actively change that. And the idea of being the more you do that, the more you link that more active response to those, we call them cues. So things in your life that where those choices pop up, either a part in your routine or people you were around, the more often you do that, the more automatic it will feel going on. And that's developing. So it might be really effortful at first and you might have to remind yourself to do it, but eventually it does evidence to showing that it does get easier to make those types of decisions. And then it doesn't feel like you have to interrupt your flow to continue to do it. But there's also really exciting lens of research where we're directly changing automatic evaluations.

[00:08:36] David Conrad is working on a lot of stuff where we can passively do this. So simply by having, um, activity messages on your. , home-screen of your smartphone, for example, the evidence is arguing that if you continually pair physical activity with something that's pleasant, then your mind will start learning that, , those things go together.

[00:08:56] So physical activity being good in which case, , hopefully we can do that without having to go through self-control and self-regulation, and that's a much more passive route to do it, but it's still quite early in that line of evidence. I think that's really exciting because as I mentioned before, I don't think, if all our interventions rely on people devoting all their self-control and resources to changing, I think it's apt to fail over the long run.

[00:09:21] So we need to find something that's working, meeting people where they are, as opposed to asking them to use the valuable self control that we have in our lives towards changing a single house.

[00:09:32] Nick: Yeah, guess, especially when, uh, people are already feeling pressure from, you know, global health situations and whatever, small amount of cognitive juice they've got left. They're not, they're not getting econ. a weak link rely on. Isn't it to,

[00:09:50] Amanda: especially, parent of two young kids and trust me, there's nothing left at the end of the day.

[00:09:55] Nick: Yeah, that was question that I had. I asked wife, I said, do you have question about behavior change? You went? Yeah. how do parents who, desperately want some time out and may already be maxing out the screen time, just so they can breathe. How do you balance that building, , good habits.

[00:10:14] Amanda: It's really, really hard. And I can say that from experience. And I think the most convincing line of evidence that I use in my day to day life is to be kind to yourself and if it's not working, don't force it. And I really like that because some of the problems with how we try to get people to change behaviors, to persist and just keep going.

[00:10:35] You'll get there. And then, but that's kind of an achievement mentality, which doesn't work when you want to change something. Long-term so, yeah, it's fine. If you're training for a marathon and then the marathon is over, but if you want to make long-term changes to your life, the key isn't to just fight through it, because you'll have days where you're not motivated or where for no reason, the kid stays up all night or, you're exhausted or whatever.

[00:11:00] And you've got to find something that will persist even on those days. So something that fits in your routine. Typically bass for plank in the habit guru has the three keywords that I stick with. It needs to be something that's efficient. So it makes your life easier. , fun. You get some sort of enjoyment out of it or satisfying.

[00:11:19] So something's quite rewarding about it. So if it's not doing any of those, you'll have this kind of visceral reaction. When you keep trying, like you'll have to talk yourself into it. And if you're doing that. Find a different way to get what you want. So if you're, I can exercise in the morning, I try, I've tried all these different ones.

[00:11:41] Doesn't work for me. And so now I figured out if I do it at evening, it just works better. So I think people can be kinder to themselves and realize that some days you're not going to do meet all your goals or you're not going to, , effectively change the behavior the way you want. And that's okay too.

[00:12:00] The less hard you are on yourself on the days that you fail, the easier it is to rebound from them. If you're hard on yourself and you go, I knew I couldn't do it. I might as well quit. That's the concern. So evidence is showing your habits or you can make habits, even when you fail on some days, it's totally fine.

[00:12:17] You'll still get there. You're in it for the long game. It's when you're focusing on how you feel right after you fail, or you're focusing on. One behavior or a lack of doing it one day means I failed. , that's when things, fall to pieces, so kindness to yourself is, massive in behavior change because it's really, really, really.

[00:12:40] Nick: It's funny. You say that I spoke to, , a guy who is a relative of mine, and I'm out the mechanics, but it Lama Coriat. And, , he was, flyer in the, uh, finance and he was also a barrister and now he's a Buddhist Lama, talks about, 

[00:12:57] loving kindness, the practice of loving kindness, how that is actually an antidote for this. And I had to listen to that. I got to listen to it a few times when I edited the talk, but that something so simple could be so profound, but it is, it seems one of the simplest things to articulate, but one of the most difficult things.

[00:13:18] To put into practice that we would dare ourselves a know, be a little bit kinder to ourselves or employ a voice, um, that say for a friend, you know, what a concept, or maybe consider yourself a friend.

[00:13:31] Amanda: Or even allow yourself to check in to see if you're okay. I think a lot of people get so caught up in the day to day and minute to minute that they forget to take a step back and go, Hey, am I okay? Or am I just going, because that's what I'm doing. So being able to actually go is what I'm doing working.

[00:13:50] And if not, how do I change that? It's, you've got to make that part of your life too, to make sure that you're meeting the goals you want. And you're able to. You know what? I just don't feel right. Or I hate this part of my day or, and that's totally okay. Like you said, just being able to trust how you're feeling and adjust it is massive and it's a hard thing to learn.

[00:14:13] Nick: And it is. Yeah. So for, somebody who has maybe the extent of their involvement with habits been around new year's Eve resolutions and, know, setting themselves up to fail. How are habits formed and, , how can the average person, start to develop better incorporating self-kindness and.

[00:14:37] Amanda: yeah. are an amazing part of psychology, I think, because it shows how impressive the human mind works. Right? So it's, again, one of these shortcuts that our brain makes. So a habit is. Um, we describe it as any link between a behavior and a queue, and this cue can be anything from a part in your routine to being around certain people, um, being, um, being put in certain circumstances, being in a certain mood and habit is the behavior, the influence that you get from having all these learned experiences of this cue and behavior.

[00:15:15] So it's all about pattern. Face a queue or you're in a certain circumstance and you act the same way over and over again, your mind learns to automatically link those so that when you're in that circumstance again, your mind goes, oh, this is when we do this behavior. And you feel this impulse to act. Um, I have my lovely husband shakes his knee when he sits down at a table and it makes the whole table rattle.

[00:15:43] And it's a really interesting habit to me because. The queue is him sitting down at the table and the behavior is to Bob his knee. And it shows that you don't have to be goal directed to make a habit, right? Anytime you have a behavior and you're getting something out of it, some sort of reward, um, that habit will develop.

[00:16:05] So they'll develop if you like them or not. Unfortunately, that means a lot of us have bad. Habits of their wife gets driven mad by. , but also , it gives us the opportunity to learn how to help people develop good habits. , and the key is consistency, Wendy woods and others have, , coined the term context dependency, which is the psychological fancy way of saying when you're in the same situation, just do the same behavior over and over again.

[00:16:36] So you can start with a goal. Like if you want to have a habit to, , drink a glass of water, when you wake up, if you do that regularly, eventually you won't have to talk yourself into doing it. It will just become automatic. , so it's hard at the beginning. If it's goal-driven, you have to use a lot of self control and monitoring and all that tough stuff, but eventually it does get easier.

[00:17:01] And there's a lot of exciting evidence coming out. This. It's not the behavior that will become easier. Like if you're trying to start an exercise habit, it's not that over time, the exercise will feel easier rather it's that decision to do. It will feel a lot easier. , if someone's ever started in a new gym or exercising in a new place, it's feels.

[00:17:24] Cognitively demanding. Like it, it feels too hard mentally because there's so many all which machine should I use first? Where's the lockers. Am I supposed to put my towel down? There's a lot of decisions and you can feel those, those having to make all those decisions really weigh on you and habits is our mine's way of reducing that drain on, on our minds.

[00:17:46] , so the more you do it repeatedly. The more likely it'll turn into a habit, as long as you're getting something rewarding out of that.

[00:17:55] Nick: You've talked a little bit about, , I guess being. under the radar of, of having to rely on self to, to, to a habit. Can you talk a little bit about, uh, I'm thinking specifically around mood and just in time interventions, could you unpack that a bit?

[00:18:14] Amanda: Yeah. Just-in-time interventions are the fields exciting direction that tries to get people in that point of decision-making. And I think that's a really effective way to change people's behavior because it means you don't have to use self-control every minute of every day. You just have to know when to use.

[00:18:33] So with advances in technology and our way of behind the scenes, helping people intervene, um, we're able to try to target those interventions so that it's when you have to make the behavior, instead of giving you information three days in advance of when you're actually going to decide, you have to keep all that information in your head, know when to act.

[00:18:55] It's too much to ask of people now. So just-in-time interventions are these ways of making the. Impact on when people are actually making decisions. So we're doing some exciting stuff with bedtime procrastination and helping people, um, not procrastinate if they need to go to sleep at a certain time. And so we're trying to make sure that we can target when people actually start procrastinating, as opposed to doing things that they'd like to do.

[00:19:25] Um, so that type of thing with mood and mood. There's really exciting and interesting evidence to show how these change together. The idea that I tend to believe that it's more, you need to be in a certain mood to be active. It's quite hard to feel like you want to move when you're in a very, we call it deactivated state.

[00:19:47] So regardless of if it's positive or negative, if you're feeling very calm or low energy, You have to do a lot to get yourself up to a place where you can, um, feel like being active to a moderate or vigorous intensity is something that's approachable. It just seems because it's so far from where you are.

[00:20:06] It seems hard. And the cool thing with that is it just takes movement is the best way to get motivated for more movement. Um, there's a lot of evidence. If you just talk yourself into one minute or three minutes, then you'll tend to do quite a bit more than you actually intended to do because you've started already.

[00:20:27] So I think, and that seems more attainable, right? So if you're S if you're feeling down, you don't want to get off the couch. If you go, all right. During the next commercial break, I'll just get up and do a quick lap around the house. Well, once you're out there, you're going to think, oh, this actually feels pretty good, and I can do this.

[00:20:43] It's so much easier. When you're already in that activated state. So if you can just talk yourself into three or five seconds of just doing a little, usually that's all you need. And even if you just do a little that's okay. At least, you know, you've done that. And you can do maybe a little bit more next time.

[00:21:02] Nick: um, I felt that, and I've, I've done that, you know, and I, I joke with friends about meditation, about the benefits of meditation, and they say, oh, I can't, I can't maintain focus for long. I'm like, there are two minute meditations and you don't, know, I've heard Pema Chodron talk She checked for the whole time and she only woke the first time she meditated, when the bell went, it matter.

[00:21:26] to. A minute, go for a walk to end of the street or 30 steps. And you do there. Is that whole making your bed sense of accomplishing something that sets for next time? actually that was a positive experience.

[00:21:41] Amanda: and it's amazing because most, if you ask most people, what the number one barrier to being physically active is they say I don't have time, but when we actually do time use studies, everyone has time. It's just a priority. It's just, and that's okay. If you need downtime. Don't force yourself into it, but find something that works.

[00:22:00] And usually you can, the beautiful part of physical activity is it's, it's endless the opportunities and the ways to do it and who you do it with. , so there's a lot of different opportunities and if it's not working, you can try something else. And the latest evidence is showing that more benefit comes from leisure time activity.

[00:22:22] So the activity we like doing, , If it's something that's part of your work or something you're doing for another means like active transport, we call it where you're being active to get somewhere. Some of the mental health benefits aren't as prevalent as if it's something you're doing that you enjoy and you're doing it for the sake of the activity itself.

[00:22:40] So I really strongly encourage people to find something that they enjoy intrinsically they enjoy for the behavior itself. Um, it seems like that's where most of our mental health benefits are coming.

[00:22:54] Nick: you. And I'm just thinking I'm focused pretty on, on movement as an intervention, but what some of research that you're working and around with habits, it doesn't have to be specifically for movement. Any, any aspect, I guess a desired effect.

[00:23:14] Amanda: Yeah, we're, we're doing a lot of exciting things. I , out in exercise, but have. Quite a lot to look at what is common with motivation across different behaviors and something that's been really intriguing for me recently is, , the behavior of seeking support for mental health, if you need it.

[00:23:33] Because we work with a lot of, once I moved to Australia, I learned about blokes. We work with a lot of, , guys, they typically tend to be who don't want to go into a mental health clinic and seek help if they need. And it's something about identity, right? It's something about, they feel like it changes who they are.

[00:23:55] If they have to admit that they need help with mental health. So the exciting things we've been doing is integrating it within, , programs or within their routines. , usually through their employers where it's part of their training, but we're not calling it mental health support and it's aligns with the idea.

[00:24:16] It, there's something very interesting about behaviors and identity in the idea that you either see yourself as someone who does that, or someone who doesn't do that, and that has a massive impact on what you do. So if you don't see yourself as someone who needs help for mental health, or you don't want to be one of them, quote unquote, which is 90% of the population, by the way, at some point in their life, , then you don't want it.

[00:24:39] You'll resist it, even if you could really benefit from it. So I think. The role that habits playing and identity formation in those types of things are really interesting because as you will have garnered from this conversation, I hate the idea of asking people to use self-control to do things that make them healthier and happier.

[00:24:57] We shouldn't have to do that. It should be theirs. We know more about psychology than to, , ask people to commit and to prioritize that when there are so many things going on in people's lives, , I wasn't a direct answer to your question, but that was something interesting we have on, uh, the other thing with habits we're looking at is a little bit on, , we have a PhD student who is a ParaMed and he is looking at interventions for partners who, when they have, you know, ParaMed, especially critical care ones in Australia, they, they deal with a lot of traumatic, , Incidents on in their job and they'll bring it home to their partners and talk about it.

[00:25:33] So we're looking at what's called secondary stress and how, when you unleash and you use social support on your partner, it can actually cause some trauma in your partner as well. And there's a lot of jobs, , where that is relevant. And so we're starting to see how taking a more behavior change perspective on that can help, , partners work out how to.

[00:25:54] How to still be supportive of the ParaMed or the pertinent person who's gone through the trauma without actually traumatizing your partner and making sure they have the support if needed. So that's been really exciting because it's not a traditional health behavior that the field takes, but we're really taking these, , psychological approaches to trying to say, okay, how can we help, , utilize this in different populations?

[00:26:18] Another really cool one is. Um, when they get released back into society, we just throw them in. We give them a few nights in a hotel and go, good luck. Hope you don't do the same things you did before. And 80% of them do commit crimes again. And so we have a really exciting project going on where we're, , trying to understand what we can do to help people form better habits , and giving them better.

[00:26:43] , Psychological resources as well as physical ones where you're actually set up to build healthier habits rather than fall back on old ones. It's really fascinating that you can pull someone out of their environment for 20 years and put them back in and they'll act exactly as they did before. , but , that's how our mind works.

[00:27:01] That's how habits are built and anyone can see that in day-to-day life. With high school reunion, I went back to my high school reunion and. Acting the same way I did when I was a high school kid, because that's who I was around. It was the same context and my mind knew how to act in that circumstance.

[00:27:17] It's amazing what it applies to and everyone will have their own examples , of where habits are good or bad for them.

[00:27:24] Nick: I love, , it is. It's, it's ludicrous that we do into these roles that obviously we've delineated them, especially with family and school. they're more constructed as a group think type of thing. , but Ram Das saying that if you think you're spiritually enlightened or you've progress, go spend week with your and you'll see the work you've got left do.

[00:27:49] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:27:50] Nick: um,

[00:27:51] Amanda: And, the power of being aware of that is really impressive, because as you mentioned, there are some people that , you like to be around because they may. Behave more like you, like, you know, you like how you are around them as opposed to other people. And if you're aware of that and you can regulate your own behavior and responses to that, , I mean that's habitual, that's habitual thinking and reacting to those conversations.

[00:28:15] So, , awareness as part of the key and with habits, the key too is not to stop that habits, but to replace them. So you're doing that behavior for a reason. You're getting some reward out of it. So if you can figure out what that reward is, And find a more healthy or, or a better behavior that gives you that same feeling, but isn't the behavior that you don't want to do.

[00:28:39] , that's your key. So if you're smoking and you don't want to smoke, you can't replace that with chewing on a celery stick because you're not going to get the same reward. , but if you do something that's still rewarding, but maybe not a single. , that's going to be more likely, and that's why a lot of people gain weight when they're trying to smoke.

[00:28:55] Cause they replaced it with, , rewarding foods to eat. So you gotta be smart about it, but, , also be kind to yourself and go, listen, you're getting something out of this. So I react to my uncle in this way because , I seek his validation or something. There's other ways to get that beyond the behavior you want to do.

[00:29:14] You just have to trick your mind into switching out the behavior cue P. What behavior is going to be linked to this situation. And it's hard. We get it.

[00:29:24] Nick: Yeah, is. And I love that. , the concept of small moments, many. So it's not about a big, a all once, which is very much my idea go hard, go big, you know, get it done. But no, it's the, the traction seems to come Small amounts often almost imperceptibly small.

[00:29:44] It just seems to, , yeah, it seems to work. 

[00:29:47] Amanda: I was just going to say, I think it's, what's impacted me a lot is I look at a lot of, , change over time and how psychology and mood and motivation changes. And it's amazing how quick these states change. And I think that's helped me in my daily life because if you're feeling anxious or if you're feeling.

[00:30:05] If you can just remember how short that is and that there's change to come. , and you don't make entire life decisions based on how you're feeling in that moment. It's really useful. So that person isn't always going to be mad at you, that feeling you're having, isn't always going to be there. , I think that puts things into perspective.

[00:30:25] A lot as knowing how quickly states , of mental wellbeing and moods and energy levels, they can all change. And you have to remember that they do, when you make decisions that can impact you. Long-term

[00:30:40] Nick: It's funny. You mentioned that I had I still do some chronic pain. Often I'd wake up at two, three in morning and looks worse than, and you my God, you know, if this is going to be ongoing, it it's always going to like this. I think a lot of us get locked into that pattern of It's always going be like this, I've heard talk a bit about, , learning and marketing and how, , that's an exciting area to focus on that.

[00:31:07] Obviously the people who are making money figured out that really does behavior very successfully. , and unfortunately they have seemingly limitless budgets. Can you talk, can you talk about how that can work with, , for you know, to use for the force, know, the, the good side.

[00:31:26] Amanda: think, you know, it's funny. , the people making public health interventions and all of these efforts. Typically, if they're from an academic upbringing like myself, you're trained to start with the problem and why it's a burden. And what the solution is. And so we're very, we're trained to make a strong case as to why what we're doing is important.

[00:31:50] And unfortunately, a lot of that has translated into that being our way that we want to change people's behavior is convince them, give them enough information that they'll really be sure that they need to do this and then they'll do it. But that is just not out people's minds work. Have things that we know we should do more or less of, and we still do it.

[00:32:12] So it's just not working. And if it does work, it's typically short term. Um, so associative learning is, is this idea that if you just pair the opportunity where the behavior or the thing that you want to do more or less out with feelings instead of educational information, People will be drawn towards it.

[00:32:34] Right. So you'll see this with branding and we teamed up with marketing because like you said, these people have this. If they don't make commercials and inform you on why you should drink more soda and you know that it would never work. , number one, cause what would their message be? My number two, because that's, they know that's not how people, Choices between drinks and, and I think now more than ever a public health and psychology behavior change, researchers are, are picking up on this fact and we're going, oh, maybe we don't just need to make more brochures about why certain behaviors are good or bad for you.

[00:33:10] Maybe we actually need to take on this branding approach and this idea that if we. Make it easier or more fun or more satisfying to do the healthier option. , people will do that. , it's a big battle cause there's a lot of marketing being thrown at us. So your associations that your mind have are, are highly competitive.

[00:33:31] , but I think there's really exciting ways to, , apply at either the systems level , with the way. , food or packages or more at the individual level, you can do it yourself, right. With being aware and making sure that the behaviors that you want to do that you're getting some sort of reward out of it. 

[00:33:49] and importantly by that, I mean, not you're rewarding yourself for doing it, but rather you see the behavior as the award. So a lot of people will do exercise and then go have a coffee. Yeah. Or they'll do something after that's really rewarding. And typically that's not as effective as if you actually find the behavior itself rewarding.

[00:34:09] So try to find something that works and is rewarding or satisfying for you as opposed to burying your teeth through it. And then getting a reward at the end that doesn't seem to last as long. But, yeah, so there's multiple ways to do it, right. There's ways to, if what you're doing you're, as you're engaging in that behavior, if it's being enjoyable, then your mind will learn, oh, I find this rewarding.

[00:34:32] , or you can passively do it like the way the marketers do. , put the soda in the hand of a good-looking woman or put the, , McDonald's on the jerseys of all the athletes. , so. Being aware of, of what's going on around you is really important to see when they're trying to use that associative learning, but also you using it yourself and being aware that you can also impact your own automatic process.

[00:34:58] Nick: Thank you. I'm just thinking around, , emotion regulation. You see, , A lot of obviously feeling pressure from, , lockdowns and vacillating restrictions and so on. What are some of the levers that people can work with around themselves and their families regulate their mood that you're.

[00:35:22] Amanda: , I think the key, especially with behavior change lens on it is your expectations. , with two small children, , when we had our brief lockdown in Queensland, it was quite clear that my day-to-day life wasn't going to work the same. So to be quite conscious of changing our expectations for yourself and others, , was, it was quite strong in that way.

[00:35:43] You can adjust to. The mood you're in or the situations and your circumstances, if you consciously decide to be kinder to yourself and to be okay with allowing your mood, to drive your behavior sometimes, , that seems to work better than always trying to resist it and ignore it and persist, especially given that some of these situations are, less temporary than we would like.

[00:36:09] So I think we're in it for the long haul and we have. Find a way that works, , as opposed to powering through and it's okay to fail. It's okay to fail. If that means not doing the behavior you want to do every day or not, , being in a great mood every day. It's okay. I think it's really important. We work with some wonderful not-for-profit organizations that talk about, , it's okay.

[00:36:35] Not to be okay. It's okay to get help when you need it. It's okay to feel, , not like yourself or down. , and it's important to be aware of that and do the self checks, , with yourself and with others around you. Sometimes the people you see on zoom or on the street, you may be the only interaction they have for several days in isolation is quite hard on you in terms of behavior change or wellbeing.

[00:37:00] So. Be kind to each other, , check in with each other and, and yourself, , and adjust your expectations to be manageable across the long haul.

[00:37:12] Nick: At some, uh, some very, , Sage advice. I think if people can sit, sit with that and use it that's , yeah, go a long way to helping us be more inverted commas, successful with whatever we want to do, if we're not beating the crap each other. Yeah. 

[00:37:31] Amanda: exciting part too, is like from a habit perspective, this is a really time in people's lives because everyone's kind of reflecting and going, oh, what is, you know, what is my life like and how look at how. Taken away or it's different. And these are moments where you can actually take the time to just figure out what was it about the way your life was going that you liked or you didn't like.

[00:37:55] And maybe because everything's been disrupted, you can take this time to think what you want to do differently or how you want to act. And start those habits because they've been disrupted anyway. So you might as well use this chance as a way to replace the bad habits you have by figuring out a behavior that works better, , to get you that reward.

[00:38:16] Or alternatively, if you're we're doing something great and it was still working, then make sure you find a way that, that, that cue or that context keeps popping up in your daily life because. It's an interesting time to be reflective and it's okay to be hard on yourself, but also use it as a way to make yourself better going forward.

[00:38:37] Nick: That's Isn't using as an opportunity? Well, it is because most people see it as, oh my God, again, we go. But it is, I mean, there's so much that comes from reflection. , and think I've worked in community for the last four years. You know, talk about reflective practice and, um, and sharing that learning and reflective journaling.

[00:38:57] And you do when you sit and think about what's going on. What was good, what was not so good? Yeah. What could we change? What can we reinforce? That's quite a pertinent process.

[00:39:08] Amanda: and along with that, the evidence is that if you think about what you're grateful for too, that adds a lot of wellbeing and behavior change, um, benefits as well. So if you've got. While you're reflecting. If you go, I'm really grateful that I have such a kind neighbor or that I'm showing resilience or that my child's showing resilience or that my, the teacher to my child has done something, , to get us through that type of thing really can have an impact on your perspective, day to day.

[00:39:36] Nick: Yeah. What, uh, is there, is there any that I've asked or is there any piece of work that you're we haven't talked about? , 

[00:39:46] Amanda: the other thing I forgot to mention is we're doing a bit on, , habits and behavior change and classic. And looking at, , we're teaming up with some coastal Marine researchers and looking at microplastics and plastics in the ocean and how they get there. And we've been really interested to find that the reason people throw away cigarette butts in particular is quite different than the reason people throw away rappers or packaging or other types of litter.

[00:40:14] , in that with cigarette buds, most people don't realize that they do. Biodegradable. So it could be habitual, but it's one of the only behaviors where I've really been convinced that, , a lack of knowledge might be underpinning a lot of it. So it's important to know that a lot of cigarettes aren't biodegradable, and if you throw them down the drain or on the street, , they'll end up in our oceans more than, more often than not.

[00:40:40] And they are there's plastic parts in them that are quite synthetic and will break up. So. That's one where I think awareness campaign campaigns would be really worthwhile. , but other things, I think, especially with the plastic waste research we've been doing, there's a component that's individual.

[00:40:56] So each of us need to be better at not ending having our plastics end up in the ocean, but also there's a system problem and there's ways to impact a lot of people's behavior. , before they have to make the choice. For example, with packaging, there's a. Uh, things companies can do where there's not a lot of plastic waste.

[00:41:15] , when you open a bottle, for example, where you open a pack of cigarettes, , and there's also a lot that communities and, , governments can do to help reduce the waste that ends up in our plastic there's drain buddies that are these grapes that ended up on our storm drain so that they can just block some of the major plastics from ending up in the oceans, , there's regulations that can be made with, , with astroturfing and things like.

[00:41:38] So it's really brought to light that when we want to change something there's government action that needs to be had there's organizational actions that need to be had and individual behavior change. , so it's a big fight. , but sometimes depending on what you want to do, the solution lies at different levels.

[00:41:58] Not everything's going to be cured with policy changes, but not everything is going to be, should be up to the individual either. So it's a nice balance between. Um, so part of my fun job, part of the fun of my job is to figure out where which behaviors should be intervened with which part of the process it's, it's pretty eye-opening.

[00:42:16] I think

[00:42:18] Nick: I think, , one of the exciting things that I saw from. I guess the pandemic today is up to the point where the virus became quite widespread. We were all thinking, how do we change things for the better the environment? And then all of a sudden, the world stopped. But any moments before we were saying, oh, we could never make a change.

[00:42:41] That's significant. And yet here we are. This infinitesimal thing that can't even see made it happen. know, there is, I don't know, it's the four mile that some sort of that no things can change and they can change quickly. So, yeah.

[00:42:57] Amanda: it's, we've been doing a lot of research on habits amongst this internationally. We've looked at habits of social distancing and washing your hands and, , , different, , virus, transmission, , behaviors. And the thing that I find really interesting is even if we've done this for a year, When we don't have to, most people go exactly back to what they've done, which is kind of against psychology of habits.

[00:43:23] Right? If you do something regularly for a year, if you socially distance for a year, it should kind of become automatic for you. And some people probably will feel that, especially with masks, if they've worn them for a long time. , but it also points to the fact that something really interesting is going on that if you're doing a behavior out of fear or.

[00:43:44] Threat I think probably we're associating some of those behaviors with the fear , or all the horrible impacts that have been happening. And I think if, if you're doing a behavior for that, , it's not going to last. So try to think, because I can tell you the moment I didn't have to wear a mask.

[00:44:01] Fortunately, we're in Queensland where, , regional Queensland, where we haven't had to have too many restrictions. , I didn't wear it anymore. I did it for two weeks, which people will be very empathetic to my situation, but it's quite obtrusive and it was in the way. And, and I think more, more than that stuff, I think it reminded me of how serious the pandemic is.

[00:44:22] And obviously I have friends and family in America who are greatly impacted by it. And I think having. Tangible reminder on my face was really hard. , so I was more than happy to get rid of it, , and go back into denial that anything's happening, but it's just, I think it's a, it's a really important reminder that more than the behavior, even if it's a really easy behavior, the reasoning behind you're doing it and the reward you're getting out of it, , is what's going to drive it longterm.

[00:44:50] And so it's really important to be aware of those and make sure behaviors are working for you. And you're not doing them. , just to get through a certain event.

[00:45:02] Nick: Thank you. Yeah, I think that's, I know that when I see, um, sanding or hand sanitizer, there is an instinct to just reach for it and use it. It's funny. You watch people. They'll see one and there's not even a thought. Got to put their hand and I look if complete disappointment when it's empty, it's like denied, you know,

[00:45:24] Amanda: Anything. 

[00:45:25] Nick: um, 

[00:45:26] Amanda: it's amazing. And you can see how it's forming all around with QR codes using an, , in Queensland. People will pick up their phones before they go into a place. , it's, it's a fascinating, a really unfortunate, , psychology experiment going on around us unfortunately, most of well, not unfortunately, but most of the habit researchers around the world are quite close.

[00:45:47] So we all got together and doing a study, but most of us have small children. There was a lot of panicked emailed about, I can't do that, trying to help somebody else do it. 

[00:45:57] Nick: Um, 

[00:45:57] Amanda: but we got through it. So our study started a little bit later than we would've liked, but we're just like everyone else and just got to get through it and be kind to each other and ourselves it's all about those expectations.

[00:46:10] Nick: Amanda rebar. Thank you so much. I'm very, very grateful for your time and insight today.

[00:46:18] Amanda: thank you. Lovely to chat with you, Nick.