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Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me on another episode of the Dorsey Rush Show.
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Today we have a special guest with us.
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His name is David Libby.
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Him and his wife Lisa raised their two daughters, kayla and Bethany, in Royal Maine and rural Ming.
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They hunted, fished and foraged for wild edible plants, went camping in remote and undiscovered places, grew gardens, raised livestock and homesteading.
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Mom and David with a self-employed logger, and David were self-employed.
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As an unintended consequence of this lifestyle, they were bitten by dozens of ticks.
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About the time their girls were in their mid-teens, the whole family had become desperately ill with Lyme disease, along with a host of complications.
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The whole family had become desperately ill with Lyme disease, along with a host of complications.
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For years he served in the church, first as a deacon and then as an elder.
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David had been a long self-taught student of theology and philosophy.
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He had learned all the correct answers to some of the most difficult questions and can hold his own as a Christian apologist and theologian.
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When his family's health fell apart, he discovered something that the books do not teach that there is a sharp disconnect between an encyclopedia of that knowledge I'm sorry, of encyclopedic knowledge and an application of the knowledge in the muddy and bloody trenches.
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It is there that this book was conceived.
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David, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
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Well, thank you for having me, Dorsey.
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I'm very glad to be here.
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Absolutely.
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Now tell us a little bit about yourself and you know what made you write this book.
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Well, I wrote the book because of the experience we had with this.
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You know, very serious illness and having to grapple with the tough questions and I thought that perhaps you know the conclusions that I'd come to might be helpful for other people who are also suffering.
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But you know, suffering was very difficult for a very long time and it really forced me to you know kind of and what you you know what you dealt with.
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Yeah, okay.
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So the physical struggles were very serious.
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Illness that included, you know, the girls feeling sick all the time, but also severe pain all throughout their bodies.
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My wife described the pain as feeling like there were shards of broken glass all toward her body.
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They were debilitated at times, you know, couldn't walk at times.
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Severe seizures, even mental health problems, psychotic episodes and a whole lot of other stuff.
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So you know, that's kind of gives a little sketch of the physical.
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You know physiological problems.
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But then there are the philosophical problems and theological problems.
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And those would be, you know, questions like if there is a God who is good and all-powerful, then couldn't he stop this?
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And why are these kinds of things happening and why is there suffering in this world?
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And I start out the book by grappling with a question that some of the atheists from the 19th century grappled with.
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Ernst Haeckel, a contemporary of Charles Darwin's, coined what he called the disteleological argument.
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The teleological argument argues that the world appears to be designed, therefore it must have a designer, right, he said.
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Well, if that's true, then the designer must not be the God of the Bible, because the God of the Bible doesn't make mistakes.
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And look at the world it's full of mistakes.
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So the book kind of starts there.
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How do we grapple with that question, how do we answer that question?
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And then it moves on from there.
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Or actually it starts out telling my family's story, but once I get into the section, you know, third chapter, that's where it begins with Heckel's question.
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Now, all those issues that you described a little while ago.
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All that came from Lyme disease.
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Lyme disease was kind of the trigger for a whole lot of problems, but there were other complications as well, and a big piece of the puzzle was a genetic mutation that my wife and both daughters have but I don't have, which is why it was very easy for me to treat the disease and very difficult for them.
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What this mutation does is it kills the body's ability to deal with toxins, and so they were suffering not only from Lyme disease, from what the Borrelia spirochetes do to the body, but also they were suffering from all the toxins that we breathe in and that are in our food and that are on our clothing, because the Lyme had kind of helped shut down the body's ability to deal with these toxins and to process them.
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So it was complicated.
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It was complicated and very hard to treat and it took a lot of years and a lot of money.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Right, oh, I'm sure.
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And I know that experience as well.
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How did you come to the answer of you know?
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Is there a God and why would God allow you guys to go through that?
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Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
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So initially I guess there would be several parts to the answer that I would give.
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The first part of the answer would be that Ernst Haeckel with his teleological argument and he actually borrowed it from David Hume a century earlier Ernst Haeckel with his teleological argument, and he actually borrowed it from David Hume a century earlier.
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But his argument really is kind of a foolish one, because God has promised us that there would be trouble in this world.
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You know, we read in Genesis 3 that God has cursed his creation because of human rebellion, because of sin, and as a result there is pain and suffering because of God's curse.
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So Ernst Haeckel's argument really kind of goes like this Don't things like suffering prove that there is no God?
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Well, no, they don't prove that at all, because God told us that there would be suffering.
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God ordained that there would be.
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So, for example, imagine Eve having just given birth to her first child and saying wow, you know that really hurt.
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That must prove there is no God.
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Well, no, god told her that you're going to have pain in childbirth.
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So it doesn't disprove God at all.
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In fact it's part of the design.
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But then of course that doesn't answer all of our questions.
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You know God could take our trials away.
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Why didn't he ordain a reality where there was no fall into sin?
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And you know we can always push back against those answers, but I think that there are good answers in Scripture.
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God ordained the reality that we have for his glory.
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God is glorified in a display of his justice and you know where would we have an occasion for that display if there were no sin?
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And he's glorified in the display of his justice.
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And you know where would we have an occasion for that display if there were no sin?
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And he's glorified in the display of his mercy and grace.
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If there were no need for redemption, we wouldn't have this.
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You know, beautiful display of mercy and grace and a fall into sin and suffering gives God the occasion to display his love in profound and amazing ways, you know, in the atonement and in redemption.
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But you know we can still push back against those answers as well.
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But the end of the line answer, I believe, is found in the end of the book of Job and in Romans 9, verse 20 and elsewhere, and that answer would be he is God and I'm not.
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You know, at some point I need to be contented with an acceptance of what is.
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This is the reality that he has ordained, even if I don't understand why, even if all the why questions aren't answered.
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And also, by the way, scripture gives us good answers to a lot of our why questions not all the why questions, but a lot of them.
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We're told in Scripture that we're sanctified through trials and afflictions.
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Scripture uses the analogy of a fuller's soap, you know, scrubbing off all the you know pollution of sin.
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But also the analogy of a refiner's fire.
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You know, the silver and the gold are refined in the fire, and so it's in the fires of affliction that we find this sanctification and this refining.
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And, you know, it seems to me that people who really truly do love the Lord Jesus are drawn closer to him in times of trial.
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So there are good answers in Scripture, even if all the answers aren't given.
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Right.
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What would you say to people who are going through trials and going through difficulties, but they're questioning God?
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They're questioning God of you know why would you allow this to happen?
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You know they may even be like you know God.
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You know you told me that, yes, there would be trials, but you didn't tell me how bad these trials would be.
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You know, so I'm not going to.
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You know, I'm trying to trust in you, but the doctors are telling me X, y, z.
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What would you say to those people?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's a very good question, a very important question, and it's not all hypothetical, is it?
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Because those things really do happen, they happen every day.
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And what I would say to that person is I guess it depends on why the person's asking.
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If the person is doubting the existence of God because of these trials, I would say, well, no, the trials actually demonstrate that there is a God.
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Because he said there would be trials.
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But if the person is believing in God but just asking why me?
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Then I would say I would be very, very sympathetic, first of all because I've been there myself and it's awful easy to not be suffering and to spout out the right answers, but when you're really there it's hard.
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So I would be very sympathetic, but I would tell the person to focus on what you know to be true.
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What you know to be true is what is taught in God's Word.
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For example, a beautiful example is in 1 Corinthians either 1 or 2 Corinthians, I forget which chapters 4 and chapter 5.
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Beautiful discourse where Paul talks about trials and afflictions and we're beaten down but not crushed, and so forth, and he says that our momentary light affliction here in this life is actually contributing to, or storing up or making a contribution to an eternal weight of glory in the life to come.
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So I guess I would tell that person to try to focus on getting through the next minute.
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Don't look at the big picture, but just hang on.
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And as you're hanging on, be sure there is purpose behind it.
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God is using these trials for his glory and for your good.
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It's hard to accept that in the midst of the trials, isn't it?
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But God's word tells us that's true, and so we can trust in that.
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Yeah, but it is hard.
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Yeah, it is.
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And like you said you just said you know, think about today or think about this moment, don't worry about tomorrow.
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And that's exactly what the Bible says.
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Hey, bible says hey, you've got enough trouble over calling today, don't worry about tomorrow, Don't worry about next week or next month or several months down the road.
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That's right.
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Yeah, well said.
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Yeah, you're exactly right.
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My daughter, bethany, used to say that you know, when she was really, really suffering.
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She used to say that one great comfort that she held on to was the fact that every minute that passes is a minute that will never have to pass again.
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So you know, focus on getting through the.
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You know the next few steps.
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You know you mentioned it a little while ago, but how is it that a God who cannot make mistakes has made a world full of mistakes?
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Yeah, right, right, yeah.
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That's Ernst Haeckel's disteological argument, which he borrowed from David Hume a century earlier, and my answer is by the way, there are a lot of answers that we find by well-meaning Christians.
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I don't mean to put them down in any way, but there are a lot of answers that I don't believe are adequate answers.
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I think the correct answer is that he hasn't made any mistakes.
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The trials and afflictions are not a mistake.
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They're all part of his sovereign plan, woven together, you know, for a divine purpose.
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And if God were not a sovereign God, that wouldn't be possible.
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But he is a sovereign God, you know.
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God's word tells us that very clearly.
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So my answer would be there are no mistakes.
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Pain and suffering aren't mistakes.
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They're all part of God's sovereign plan aren't mistakes.
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They're all part of God's sovereign plan.
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Amen, and I guess it goes along with what you just said For people with disabilities.
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We'll use that as an example For people like myself who have disabilities and we may talk to them about God and we may tell them about God and, you know, they may say well, you know, if God is perfect and God doesn't make mistakes, you know, why would he?
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You know, why would he allow me to be born?
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You know?
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Would you say the same thing, that that obviously God doesn't make mistakes.
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But how would you expound on that question to someone with a disability?
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Yeah, yeah, again, I would be very, very sympathetic, of course, but I would say that, first of all, if the person doesn't believe in God, then I would say your disability is no evidence against his existence, because God's word tells us that this is what we are to expect in this world.
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You know what you're saying is, if there were a God, this wouldn't happen.
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But the God who exists, the one in the scripture, says that it will happen.
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So it's no evidence against his existence.
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But if the person is someone who believes in God, if the person is a Christian, then I would say a person is someone who believes in God.
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If the person is a Christian, then I would say try to change your perspective, change your focus.
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You could even look at the disability or the suffering as a privilege, because it's giving you the opportunity to glorify God in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise.
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So think of it this way If life or God gives us circumstances that would give the unbeliever grounds to shake his fist at God and curse God, but instead we love God all the more and we remain faithful to him, then we have glorified him in ways that we could not have done if we didn't have the disability or if we didn't have the suffering.
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So I would say, first, you know, trust him in a sovereign God.
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He's given us what is best for his glory and for our good and, you know, glorify him in it and know that you have the occasion to glorify him in ways that you wouldn't have if you didn't have the disability.
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I'm reminded of the man in Scripture who, in the Gospel of John I forget which chapter, but the man who was born blind, and the Lord Jesus healed him.
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And the disciples asked was it because of this man's sin or was it because of his parents' sin that he was born blind?
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And Jesus probably shocked them with his answer.
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He said neither.
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He was born blind so that God would be glorified when I heal him.
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So you know, he suffered with blindness all that time so that God would be glorified.
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So if we have a self-centered perspective, we might say, well, that's not fair.
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You know why, would you know God glorify himself, but he made me suffer in the process.
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But if we have a God-centered focus, then we say, wow, what a privilege.
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I was born blind so I could glorify God.
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What an awesome privilege.
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So a different perspective, I think, would be in order.
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Yeah, well, for myself, you know, I've had 68 operations over my lifetime.
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I grew up in the church and gave my life to Christ at the age of 13.
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Traveling around sharing my story.
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You know because that's you know exactly what you're saying that God allowed me to be born this way because I can glorify him and travel around and share my story.
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Yes, right, and that actually right, that you actually added to my answer and you added to it beautifully, because in your case you might not have had that opportunity to share you know your story to speak, to have had that opportunity to share your story to speak to as many people as you do if it hadn't been for the disability.
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So he's opened up beautiful opportunities in this life as well.
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So, yeah, amen, brother, yeah, very well said.
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Right.
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That's a lot of operations, brother 68 operations Wow.
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That's a lot of operations, by the way, 68 operations Wow.
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Isn't a biblical worldview inconsistent with science?
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Not at all.
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There are those who would like to think that aren't there, but no, not at all.
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In fact, I would argue so.
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I love philosophy and I'm actually about to launch another book that I've finished writing that gives a philosophical defense of Christian faith.
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It's not available yet but should be available soon.
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First of all, by pointing out that real science, done well, has never made a single discovery that contradicts a biblical worldview in any way.
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In fact I think there's a lot that's been discovered that supports a biblical worldview.
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But I would answer in another way as well.
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I would say that we're going to get into a little philosophy here, a little heady stuff here, but that science depends upon induction, and induction depends upon things like the uniformity of nature, trustworthiness of the senses and that sort of thing.
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We need to have a solid foundation for empiricism and so forth.
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A lot of fancy-sounding lingo there.
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But I would argue and I'm not going to get into details as to why, unless you want me to, but I would argue that we can't have any of those things without God.
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Those things all depend upon God.
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So science would not be possible, I would argue, if there were no God.
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Without God, we don't have any reason to believe in uniformity of nature.
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Well, with God we do, because God tells us so.
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Without God, we don't have any reason to believe that empiricism is a sound foundation.
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Empiricism is simply the philosophy that says that truth is determined by what we experience.
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But how do we know our experience is even real?
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Well, we know that because God tells us so in his words.
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So, with God, we have a solid foundation for science.
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Without God, we don't have a solid foundation for science, and I love science, by the way.
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To add on to that, to the next question.
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Isn't it a bit passé to still have faith in the age of reason?
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Not at all.
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I would answer that a couple different ways.
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Again.
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We'll get into a little philosophy here.
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First of all, I would argue that every worldview position depends upon faith on some level.
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So nobody can say I don't have faith.
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Atheists love to talk about how they don't have faith.
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They have reason, but their whole worldview is built on a foundation of faith.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:47.757
Their whole worldview is naturalistic.
00:20:47.757 --> 00:20:49.201
They don't believe in any spiritual realm.
00:20:49.201 --> 00:20:50.202
They don't believe in God.
00:20:50.202 --> 00:20:51.084
All they believe is God.
00:20:51.084 --> 00:20:57.968
They believe in matter, you know, matter in motion, matter and energy, and there's nothing more to reality than that.
00:20:57.968 --> 00:20:59.291
But how do you know?
00:20:59.291 --> 00:21:05.231
How do you know that there is nothing more to reality than matter and energy and so forth?
00:21:05.231 --> 00:21:08.156
And they can't know.
00:21:08.156 --> 00:21:08.778
They can't know.
00:21:08.778 --> 00:21:10.607
They have to accept that on blind faith.
00:21:10.607 --> 00:21:22.169
So every worldview you know we could talk about other worldviews as well, but you know I picked on the atheists, but we could pick on anybody Every worldview depends upon faith on the foundational level.
00:21:22.169 --> 00:21:24.150
So no, it's not passe to have faith.
00:21:24.150 --> 00:21:25.671
We all have faith, you know.
00:21:25.691 --> 00:21:27.511
The question is what is the object to have faith?
00:21:27.511 --> 00:21:33.355
I would argue that reason could not exist without absolute norms or laws or rules that govern right and wrong thinking rationality.
00:21:33.355 --> 00:21:52.178
So think of it this way it's impossible for your thinking to go off the rails unless there actually are rails to go off from.
00:21:52.178 --> 00:21:59.611
And how do you justify the existence of absolutes, absolute laws of rationality without an absolute lawgiver?
00:21:59.611 --> 00:22:06.875
You know we could spend a lot more time, you know, teasing that out, but I would argue that you can't.
00:22:06.875 --> 00:22:12.109
You can't justify absolutes of rationality without an absolute lawgiver.
00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:24.357
And that absolute lawgiver has to meet certain conditions, certain preconditions he has to be personal, he has to be transcendent, sovereign and immutable, and so forth, and we could go on.
00:22:24.357 --> 00:22:29.184
And those preconditions are met only in the God of the Bible.
00:22:30.326 --> 00:22:40.153
So I guess what I'm getting to is not only is it not unreasonable to believe in God, there can't be any such thing as reason without God.
00:22:40.153 --> 00:22:41.871
You know reason depends upon God.
00:22:41.871 --> 00:22:46.715
So really, reason depends upon our faith.
00:22:46.715 --> 00:22:47.991
You know it's Christian faith being true.
00:22:47.991 --> 00:22:57.186
Without the Christian faith being true there can't be any norms or laws or standards by which rationality is defined, and without that you don't have any such thing as reason.
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