Bankrobber

 Expat Property-Guy  

How have you funded this growth from six to 35? Is it a mixture of pulling out equity or saving? 

Stuart Ball  

I robbed a bank ha ha

Expat Property-Guy  

You robbed a bank? I think you'd need to buy 35 properties. Yeah. You're listening to Expat Property Story, a podcast in which I share my story to smooth the way for you to have your own Expat Property Story. Hello there and welcome to episode two. In Episode One, I told you how my Expat Property Story began. As a quick reminder, I gave a brief introduction to my background, and how my wife and I ditched our financial advisor and most of our stocks and shares and decided to invest in more property after seeing the capital gains made through our first property bought in London in 2003; and our second property, a tiny one bed apartment bought off plan in Hong Kong in 2015. The first step was education and I explained how a lot of property education can be acquired for free through podcasts. The first podcast that I found was The Property Podcast, which is a great resource if you're just getting started, and I spent at least a month or two going through their back catalogue. From there, I discovered the Property Geek podcast also by Rob Dix. And of course, Rob featured in episode one, and had lots to say about risk and trust and his philosophy around capital growth and cash flow. Property Geek was more guest based and featured interviews with a wide variety of property investors, each with a slightly different tale to tell. So while I was trawling through the back catalogue of property geek, I came across an episode featuring an interview with a UK expat investor, who had arrived in Hong Kong at the same time as me, in the summer of 2006. This guy was already doing what I wanted to be doing. At that time, the idea of buying UK property from the other side of the world was pretty scary to me. So to listen to someone who was already doing it was of great interest to me, and I've put a link to it in the show notes so you can do the same. After listening, I decided to track him down, which are somewhat cheekily did via LinkedIn by basically phoning his company's main switchboard and asking to speak to him. Miraculously, I got put through, and he showed his generosity of spirit by agreeing to meet up with me the following week during his lunch break. It turned out to be a really useful experience for me, and he became the second key player in my Expat Property Story. It's always a good idea to try and learn from someone who's a little further along the path than yourself. Now actually, this guy was a lot further down the line than me, because his dad was a dab hand at DIY. He had grown up around renovations, and so he had been interested in property since a young age. Later, he joined the property industry working for a global commercial property company, like myself and many others. Today's guest got his property investment education through podcasts, books, and YouTube, but he learned most by actually going through the process of buying property. At the time of the Property Geek interview, which was recorded in February 2017. His portfolio consisted of six properties, a holiday let in France and five properties in the UK: a townhouse in Petersfield, Hampshire, another townhouse in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, a flat each in Manchester and Sheffield, and a student pod in Southampton. Most, if not all of these properties are held individually, but he has subsequently purchased property in a limited company structure to keep his income tax options open, just in case he decides to return to the UK to work. His name is Stuart Ball. But before we hear from Stuart, if you're enjoying this podcast, or if you find you're inspired by Stuart's Expat Property Story, or you know someone who would find this information helpful, make sure to share it with them. And don't forget to click the subscribe button right now to keep up with Expat Property Story. So I started by asking Stuart how his portfolio had evolved since his interview on Property Geek in 2017. 

Stuart Ball  

So now the number is actually a lot higher. So it's gone up to 35 now 35! Wow, that is fantastic. 35! From six to 35 in five years, effectively, . Four and a half years. Yeah. Wow. So tell us, how did it go from six to 35.  So I think since from when I was at six, the next few purchases, couple in Manchester and then a couple of terraced houses in Liverpool. And then I was fortunate enough to get introduced to somebody that had done a lot of property investment and came from Scotland. Then when I got talking to him and he's become quite a mentor to me. He was able to source small blocks of flats. So it was a couple of opportunities through him. That was two of the blocks I've got in my own name. And then we've done a couple as  joint ventures where it's just a straight 50:50 split between me and him.  And he's put up half the money and you've put up half the money? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

 Expat Property-Guy  

So can I ask an awkward question here? 

Stuart Ball  

Go for it!

Expat Property-Guy  

What's in it for him? Why doesn't he just buy...

Stuart Ball  

What's in it for him? There's a couple of things. It's interesting, actually, because we've, we've talked about that. And he's actually brought it up a couple of different times that you might think, what's in it for me? Why am I why am I doing this? Why don't I just buy it myself?  I did when you told me ha ha!

Stuart Ball  

Yeah. So there's a couple of things, it enables him to have a more diverse portfolio. So you can automatically double the number of units. And I do believe in the numbers game it all, you know, equals out the peaks and the troughs, the more you've got. So that's one element. He's also got a Letting agency. So he, his company will then let them out. So it grows his business quicker in that respect, as well. And there is a small, which I think, a reasonable sourcing fee as well. So he gets a bit of money from the sourcing fee, he gets the diversification of his portfolio, and he gets to manage the properties as well. He's also, I think he sees how enthusiastic I am about property as well. And if you do this with a few different people, then you build your network. And let's just say you do it with five different people, one of them is probably going to start growing in different areas as well, and then maybe bring opportunities back to you. So I think there's that potential for him as well. If I you know, hopefully, I hopefully I can, at some stage, I'd like to keep on growing in property and eventually do more on a sort of part time or full time basis.  

 Expat Property-Guy  

Right. So the blocks, then how many flats are in each block?

Stuart Ball 
Around eight per building.

Expat Property-Guy  

Are they buy to lets? Single lets?

Stuart Ball  

Yeah single family lets. I've not got any HMOs for example. 

 Expat Property-Guy  

So I do remember again, from, I keep going back to that interview with Rob Dix, you said you got your fingers burnt with an HMO Were they structural issues that came up?

Stuart Ball  

Yes

Expat Property-Guy  

So what happened there?  So, what happened was, I tried to do it on my own from Hong Kong. So it was in Liverpool, I researched some areas thought, yep, this, this particular area would be good. I'd made a few phone calls on my, on my research, I put an offer in property. I insisted on a full Building Survey. And that bought up some issues with the actual property. And we managed to negotiate through that actually, that, you know, obviously a little bit difficult having to go back after agreeing a price. I didn't like doing it. I'm sure the seller didn't like it either.  There wasn't major structure issues. But there was a, there was a bit of damp in there that needed to be sorted out, there was nothing major, but it was, you know, it was it was a good few 1000 pounds. And it made us to sit back and sort of reconsider things. But we mentioned negotiate that and kind of meet in the middle. But then the challenge was around a mortgage. And I couldn't get a mortgage because I didn't have any HMO experience, even though I wasn't managing it. And I already got a letting agent and agreed the scope with them. And they were going to manage it or the fact that I personally hadn't managed an HMO.

Stuart Ball 

I've got close on a few mortgages, but at the end of the day, they said no,

Expat Property-Guy  

But wouldn't your experience as a single let landlord satisfy the lenders to give you an actual Mangle?

Stuart Ball  

I'd have thought so but they didn't. 

 Expat Property-Guy  

So is there a particular return on capital employed RRC that you aim for? Do you have like a finger in your head when you say okay, I'm looking at this new investment, it has to satisfy this criteria?

Stuart Ball  

Yes. And my figure is 10%. But then when you start to factor in the actual costs across the whole portfolio, rarely does it get to that level, I think the two, the two blocks of flats I talked about that I purchased that are in, in my sole ownership through a company, they at the moment are pulling in about that percentage maybe a little bit higher, they're not going to go up much in capital value, maybe with inflation at best, but they do yield quite a good return.

Expat Property-Guy  

Right? So your strategy is or has been in the last five years to kind of go for properties that yield more. Why are you Is there a reason why you've gone for high yielding properties? What's the next step?

Stuart Ball  

Yeah, so I think at the moment, I'm still focused on more high yielding properties. And part of that has been for the passive income. It's also because mortgages get more and more difficult to secure, particularly with the stress test. So having those two blocks of flats in there really helps when they look on you know, when a mortgage lender looks on paper and goes, Oh, you got that yield. And those costs. Yep. Great. It really helps looking at it from a portfolio perspective for the stress test. I think the only the only reason I've focused more on yield, is it something you can control a little bit more than an assess. Capital growth, if I did an investment based on capital growth, it's a little bit of rolling the dice in my mind. And I know I'm probably perhaps in a little bit of the minority there. But if you, if you buy a property purely for the capital growth in half, we could go into an economic slump in a couple of years’ time, and it could take a long time to come out, you know, you could be looking at 10 years before you your cap ex, or your capital costs have sort of broken even on. So I tend to not focus too much on that, mind you, I have sort of expanded the portfolio by extracting value from previous properties, but very much looked at it as sort of icing on the cake. Next step, I suppose when I look forward to the next five years or so, event, eventually I'd like to go back to the UK get into property more full time. And that would be doing small developments and renovations. So I would like to start to do some smaller renovations. I've had a couple of conversations about joint ventures around doing that. Haven't done one yet a little bit of minor works on some of those properties we've got, but I think it would be twofold, one, continue growing the higher yield properties. And secondly, looking for some opportunities where it could do renovation or small scale development.

Expat Property-Guy  

So how have you funded this growth from six to 35? Is it a mixture of putting out equity or saving?

Stuart Ball  

I robbed a bank ha ha!

Expat Property-Guy  

You robbed a bank! I think you'd need to, to get 35 properties! Ha ha!

Stuart Ball  

And that it was it was it was savings from work? And it was equity from some of the earlier purchases? Yes, it was it was those two things.

Expat Property-Guy  

And then you get that snowball effect where you've got money coming in, and you're not spending it, because you're still working, you're not full time in property.

 Stuart Ball 

Exactly. Yeah. And I do feel a little impatient, I've been doing it roughly for 10 years now. And you'd think, you know, the first couple of years, I'd really see a difference. And I didn't really see much difference until about five years in and then you start to extract a bit of equity and then the portfolio is starting to grow. And now I'm starting to see the passive income to physically come in. And then you do feel like the start to get a bit of momentum now. But yes, it does. does take a while, and probably longer than I'd worked out on paper initially.

 Expat Property-Guy 

Right? So I guess that leads me to I mean, do you have an exit strategy for all of this?

 Stuart Ball  

In terms... I have an exit strategy in No, not really an exit strategy, I have a long term hold strategy. And then I think it goes into I suppose different levels of financial independence in service to first level where you've got a bit of passive income coming in, that's so nice, but you're still going to work full time, you can get a bit further where perhaps the next level then is it covers all your costs. So if you lost your job tomorrow, still have your same lifestyle as today and cover your costs. And then I think it gets to the point where you've got enough passive income, so you didn't need to work and you can perhaps serve a lifestyle that you know, aspire to. And then I think once it gets past then then you start to talk and think a little bit more around inheritance and legacy. So I suppose when I'm thinking about an exit strategy I'm going to pass on from this world one day. So then it's more about the passing it on to my daughter and family members, I don't have an exit strategy in terms of, you know, wanting to sell when it gets to a certain value or anything like that I think I will hold there will be some properties or sell when I go back to the UK, just to sort of capitalise on that and have some money for bizarrely that I've got 35 properties but I don't have anything that we'd really go back and live in. So you know, I need some money for that. So I would sell some for that purpose. And I think depending on exactly what the market does and how life pans out, you know, I would sell a few along the way if they really weren't performing over a long term. And so that you could capitalise on that money. But I don't really have a strong exit strategy is overall a hold strategy.

 Expat Property-Guy 

But have you thought about how you will access your property profits because you know, as an expat can't really be completely sure about where you're going to end up. So you must have some issues around currency exchange, and things like that. I mean, have you thought about where you're going to end up, retire, kind of thing?

Stuart Ball 

Yeah. So my wife and I've talked about this quite a lot. So it would be back in the UK.

 Expat Property-Guy  

So I think quite a few people expats probably married to local Hong Kong people. So I'm curious, does your wife is she entitled to the personal tax allowance in the UK?

Stuart Ball 

Not at the moment, she'd be treated as though she I think the way it works, she would not get the personal tax allowance. So she would start off at the lowest tax percentage at the moment, if we move back and she gets citizenship, then she would get the tax allowance. What I'm not sure of is whether if we first move back there, whether she would get it straight away or not. And that would obviously change decisions know what I put some things in her name, probably through a deed of trust? Would I put her into, you know, as a director of one of the companies and try to extract money more efficiently that way?

 Expat Property-Guy  

So what have you found to be the most challenging aspects of buying property as an expat?

 Stuart Ball 

I think it's two things, I think I've getting sort of settled down on how I'm going to purchase properties, you know are you using a sourcing agent, or are you trying to do it yourself. I think I wasted quite a bit of time trying to do it myself. And maybe, you know, lessons learnt from that HMO, I tried to do in Liverpool. So I think that was a challenge. I think I'm kind of past that now. But I did used to spend a lot of time researching stuff. I used to work most Saturdays on that. And now I yes, there's, there's bits and pieces I have to do, but it's very much looking after itself. And it's more administration. And in terms of the time side of things as well. It's I think, buying blocks and looking at bigger stuff, you know, just going through the mortgage process, for example, is you're doing it for the whole block. It's not individual flats, so that makes it easier. So I think that side of things, it's really not unique to being an expat, but it's a bit more difficult being an expat with going through that process from being overseas. It's just a little more time consuming. I think the other thing is... No I'll continue on that a bit more, because then I think it's, okay, if you're going to use a sourcing agent, how do you select a sourcing agent when they're at the end of a telephone? You know, how do you pick one you can't just Google good sourcing agent, I suppose you could, but I think the guy that I've purchased some stuff through Liverpool, you know, going and seeing him face to face, making the time to have a few calls with him, and then build the relationship that way. I think we got on quite well. And we still exchange emails are still checking on what the markets doing there with him. And he's always really good with his time to get back to me. And I think the guy in Scotland, you know, he was really good with me to spend a lot of time helping me crystallise exactly what I wanted to do and what the strategy would be. And to actually, you know, get that written down and into a, into a business plan to, to really make that a tangible, you know, there's a bit of luck there that that came my way. But I think building those relationships and making sure you have to make the time to build those relationships. And one of my general philosophies in both property investing and sort of work life is you know, be easy to work with, you know, pay your bills, quickly, don't penny pinch, where you don't need to, you know, negotiate where that needs to be done. But, but you know, make for a letting agent's point of view and a property sourcer's point of view, make them think that you're easy to work with someone you want to work with, because then you'll get more opportunities in the future. So I think that's been something I've learned that was difficult to learn, it's to trial and error as you go through. So that's one area. The other one, I think that's challenging for us is mortgages. And I think the more properties you get, the more difficult it gets. So the first few were pretty easy in general, and there was a few options there. HSBC Expat tends to be if you're buying a typical house or a typical flat and there's nothing too special about it. They tend to have the best rates and they're quite geared up to dealing with expats, at least they were sort of 5, 10 years ago when I dealt with them. But then once you start to get to about five, the lenders like HSBC and others, that's like oh, no, not gonna lend any more to you. And it starts to get a lot narrower and then if you're just starting to buy blocks of flats, and then it's blocks of flats in Scotland, Scotland, you know, if say you've got, maybe, I don't know I'll make it up but let's just say you got 20 lenders in England, if you got a Scotland you probably got three or four, it goes down a lot more. It's not the same. So that starts to get more difficult again, it's just a smaller pool that you can go to, partly because the portfolio's grown and they see that as higher risk. So I think that's been an area that's been challenging. And I think it will continue to be challenging, you know, as I grow over the next few years. My prediction would be, it's not going to be a lot more difficult than it is for me at the moment, because 35 or 50, or 60, if the lenders are going to lend to me when I got 35, I don't think they're gonna be that bothered whether it's 50 or 60, like further down the road. But when I go back to the UK, slightly different challenge again, then because at the moment I'm working, got a reasonable income. So that helps with putting forward mortgage applications. But when I go back to the UK, if I'm not working, and I'm going full time into property, that sort of limits your mortgages, and you've got remortgages as well, it's not obviously just new properties. That limits your options as well. So I think mortgages are a difficult area. And I think building...  one of the things I'd like to be able to do, and I don't know how to do it very well until I get back to the UK. But is build more of a relationship with a couple of mortgage lenders. So that, you know, not just using multiple lenders, and you're doing more of a mortgage for a portfolio rather than individual units, because

 Expat Property-Guy 

Yeah you can mortgage the whole portfolio, right?

 Stuart Ball 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 Expat Property-Guy 

I'm sure there's advantages and disadvantages of that, but, yeah

 Stuart Ball 

I think there are. From what I understand the advantages, the administration's much easier. Disadvantages, you've got fewer lenders and the, the rates are a little bit higher. But I also think from people I've spoken to, if you've... you could, then the mortgage lender will start to look at you as a business. And if they can see you being successful with growing that business, and they get on well with you, they'll invest in you as well. So that's, again comes down to the relationship. So it was in a funny way, reflecting on it. Both sides end up being about relationships, relationships on the people you work with sourcing and managing properties. And then relationships on the lending side, 

 Expat Property-Guy

You said that one of the challenges was building relationships with people. So how do you decide that you can trust somebody? Because you know, we're not in the UK? With? I don't know, 5000 6000? I don't know how many miles is away? But how do you decide if you can trust someone?

 Stuart Ball

Yeah. I think part of it is, is building that relationship and spending the time. And then you start to trust someone. Now, that's not a very good scientific reason. You know, just because you spent more time with someone, I think the track record, partly, you know, you obviously having conversations about what they've done before, and just seeing what they've done before. So if I look at the guy saying Liverpool, yes, he sourced properties. Yes, he was a co owner of a letting agency and an estate agent, and I went to see him. And I'd read various blogs about, you know, from him, and he'd been on property podcasts and that and so you can sort of do a bit of a reference check around that. And then sort of going around you do spending time with someone you, you hear about their approach to things. And so for various reference points, I think you said to build up a trust there. Also, when I mentioned in this, this guy in Liverpool, as I said before, there was a few things he put in front of me. And then he was he was sort of hesitant, saying, Actually, we know that is on the table, maybe we'll go for that. But there's these other options. And I haven't fully worked through them yet. And actually, when I looked at, you know, the couple He said not to go for the ones that I ended up going for were better on paper. So, you know, the fact that he's holding me back was good as well. And very similar with the guy I've been working with in Scotland. And he, he gave a lot of time to me to mentor me about how to start really crystallise my thoughts around the investment side of things.

 Expat Property-Guy 

So how did you meet or find these guys?

 Stuart Ball 

So the guy in Scotland was a friend of a friend, the friend knew I did property investment. We'd spoken about it a few times. And he said, oh I'll introduce you to this guy. And he'd done a few investments with him and been open about how they'd gone ok so that was one way. The other one, I can't remember where I found out about him, it might have been through one of the Property Hub podcasts. I can't remember now.

 Expat Property-Guy

But you approached him. 

 Stuart Ball 

I approached him. 

 Expat Property-Guy

You see I think this is a real key thing for people listening because a lot of the expats that I meet or that I hear about, they do their property deals from people coming to Hong Kong selling.

 Stuart Ball 

Now I bought one property from a company that was in Hong Kong selling and I regretted that. It was one of my worst decisions and I had the money. I wanted to buy something in Manchester reasonably centrally, that's what they were selling and I bought it and on reflection it wasn't as good as what they were saying. But you know, so I, I reflect upon that. And I know a lot of companies, you know, we... you probably get the flyers as well you know,  and I've never, I've never been interested in those types of properties because you just know you're paying for their marketing as well. And the resorts Exactly.

 Expat Property-Guy

You're paying for their flights to come over here and their expensive hotel that they've booked in Tsim Sha Tsui, or whatever.

 Stuart Ball 

Yes. Yeah. And it's, it's also there's a reason why they're not selling them back in the UK, you know, why pay all this money to come to Hong Kong, it's not cheap location to fly to stay to or, you know, set up a business in. Okay, tax is low, but salaries are reasonably high. So to set up a business that's going to pay for itself and make a profit in Hong Kong, selling flats back in UK, you've got a lot of extra cost in there. Yeah. So I'm pretty sceptical about a lot of those. Yeah,

 Expat Property-Guy 

The big developments as well. They sell in Hong Kong first, and then they, and then they sell them in the UK?

 Stuart Ball  

Yeah. Yes, 

 Expat Property-Guy 

So there's a message there, right? 

 Stuart Ball 

Yes. Yeah, there is.

 Expat Property-Guy 

Yeah. So definitely, I would advise as well, you, you find the person that is doing well, and you approach them rather than be approached. 

 Stuart Ball   

Yes. And a couple of people I've worked with in the UK have been not small companies. But when you compare it to the big organisations that will rent out the Marriott and do a huge presentation and lay on the champagne. It's they're not, they're very different type of companies to that. But it takes it takes time and effort, find them and build the relationship. And I think going they know went to both Liverpool and Dundee and met these people and toured around the cities and looked at what they done and looked at potential properties and talked about the letting side of things and the tenant side of things. And, you know, if they're always telling you something positive all the time, then you start to smell a rat, and you know, they're not if they're being open and genuine, and they're telling you about some of the challenges they've had, and that that starts to build the trust as well.  

 Expat Property-Guy 

So on that idea of trust, how do you kind of apportion gut instinct, and due diligence?

 Stuart Ball 

Maybe 50:50, I mean, my gut instinct is largely, some people I've met are very much sales people, and they're trying to sell you something. And you can see that straightaway, depending on the conversation, and other people are looking to build a relationship. So I think that's the 50% gut instinct, which is, yeah, just to quickly just trying to assess whether they're, they're trying to sell you something. And then the other 50% is due diligence. And I think there's, there's an element then because you're purchasing, it's not just a one time event, you're going to purchase a few it's then you know, purchase one from a person and reflect on how that went, did it was it very close to what they said it would be and no one can guarantee I'm a realist in that they could say it's going to be x, y, and Zed. And nobody knows until further down the road. But as long as it's pretty close, and it's not totally different. There's things I suppose as you go along that, that, you know, things don't go well. And how do they deal with that side of things? That can build the trust as well. So I think yes, it's 50:50 sort of gut and due diligence. But part of that due diligence as you go further down the track, it's flips then a little bit from gut to the track record as well.

 Expat Property-Guy 

Right. Yeah. Okay. So this is a question that I asked all my guests. What does the word risk mean to you?

 Stuart Ball

I think it's that's a good question. Initially, I'd say it's, it's losing, losing your money on something, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's, it can be much broader. If you're not giving a good product, there's, there's risk in that, yes, there's an element that's the monetary side of things, but also providing somebody home. If the property isn't safe for whatever reason. There's risk in that so there's, there's the legal risk, but there's that sort of personal ethical risk as well. So I think there's the monetary side of things. I think there's the personal ethical side of things. And I think then longer term it's about there's risk which very much related to the money but the money can be quite black and white, how much are you making today? This the risk on your lifestyle, which I think relates to the money thing I talked about financial freedom, so if the investments don't work out, then you're not going to achieve your lifestyle goal and that's I suppose, ultimately, my personal risk and then the other side would be that ethical risk so if I could do it well again, I don't summarise is the ethical risk and the risk of achieving your financial freedom or whatever your financial lifestyle goals are when it ultimately comes down. money's money is a figure on a bank sheet or a piece of paper in your wallet or, or whatever. But it's really the lifestyle. It's what you're going to do with that money. So the risk is how it impacts that.

 Expat Property-Guy

Right. Okay, interesting. Great. Thank you. So, as you know, as I told you before, I ask my guests for a joke. It doesn't have to be about property can be about whatever you like, but always interesting to hear the joke that people come up with. So, Stuart, here's your chance.

 Stuart Ball 

Yes. Yeah. Jack. Whitehall is not going to be at risk for his career with this joke. It is going to be a property joke. 

 Expat Property-Guy

Fantastic. Even better!

 Stuart Ball

What is the most important thing for a British Property Investor?

 Expat Property-Guy 

I don't know what is the most important thing for a British property investor?

 Stuart Ball 

His proper tea.

 Expat Property-Guy 

Ha ha! And for listeners, as Stewart told the joke, he picked up the cup of tea that we're... we're both drinking a cup of tea. That is fantastic. Yeah. Very British. I think it's the perfect job for this podcast.  Monopoly challenge.

 Stuart Ball 

I haven't done my revision on this. So is it just how many I remember? Do I have a timer?

 Expat Property-Guy  

Yeah, there is a timer. So here is 30 seconds to name as many squares as you can on the Monopoly board. If you repeat any of the squares, then those squares will not count.

 Stuart Ball  

Oh, that's an extra difficult rule in that!. Oh, no. 

 Expat Property-Guy 

Yeah. An extra challenge. So are you kind of ready?

 Stuart Ball  

I'm as ready as I'm going to be!

 Expat Property-Guy 

Fantastic. Stuart. Your 30 seconds starts now.

 Stuart Ball 

Go ,Old Kent Road, Charing Cross, Go to jail, Angel Islington, Paddington Station, Chance, Community Chest, Regent Street, Oxford Street, Bond Street, Mayfair.

 Expat Property-Guy 

12, not bad. Thank you so much for being a good sport. Did you play a lot of monopoly when you were a kid?

 Stuart Ball 

Yes, I did. And in fact, as a little, little anecdote, we went I went on holiday a few years ago with my wife, daughter, and my mum, we took the monopoly set with us. And we played one night, and I won, and I got all serious with it. So I couldn't help myself. And then everyone was saying I'm not going to play with you again. Again, we played another night. And I was winning again. I'm very glad to say I think my mum was getting out of the game. And my wife and daughter agreed to do a joint venture. I got all serious, you know, you can't do a joint venture against me. But they did. They teamed up together, and did a joint venture against me thinking that they'd beat me. And I'm very pleased to say I actually managed to beat both of them. And then they're not playing Monopoly with me ever again, according to them. So yes, 

 Expat Property-Guy 

Ha ha! This is eerily similar to a situation I had, but it wasn't my daughter, it was my wife and her niece. Yeah. And they both decided that they weren't going to pay me rent. But I still won.

 Stuart Ball  

 Well done. 

 Expat Property-Guy 

And do you have a strategy?

 Stuart Ball 

We actually, after that holiday, we came back, we watched a YouTube video, and they were talking about the statistics of the best areas to buy a nice, it was kind of interesting, my general strategy was to go for the higher end properties, purchase them early and just secure them and then try and collect some money and build those up. Rather than trying to get money drip fed through the game by the lower value properties, and then try and really pounce on people and hit them hard as they go round that last sort of last road on the board, which seemed to have served me quite well. Almost the opposite to what I do for the investment.

 Expat Property-Guy 

But funnily enough, it I find it very similar. I mean, it is all about cash flow, isn't it and expanding your portfolio to lower the risk, right? Yeah. Okay, so thank you so much, Stuart for spending the time on Expat Property Story. It was great to hear YOUR Expat Property Story. And I can't wait to find out in five years time where you are, then. 

 Stuart Ball 

Thanks very much. 

 Expat Property-Guy 

You're welcome.  So that was Stuart Ball, an expat from here in Hong Kong, who has acquired a portfolio of 35 properties in the UK. And if there's one thing that stood out for me, is the importance of building relationships with people.   If you want to contact Stuart, you can write to me at expat, Property-Guy at gmail.com and I'll put you in touch with him. Or perhaps you could tell me about your Expat Property Story or the kinds of things you'd like to have covered in the podcast in future. If you want to tweet me it's at expat prop guy and on Instagram, I'm expat underscore property underscore guy. And if you really want to help me out, please rate the show on your podcast app or leaving on it. review on Apple podcasts. You can find links to all of this and more in the show notes. In the next episode, I'll be continuing my Expat Property Story. And we'll be hearing from an investor who has a cautionary tale to tell about the dangers of buying off plan properties in new build developments. You've been listening to Expat Property Story.