One Life One Heart

One Life One Heart

[00:00:00] Michelle: I finally realized that all my fear and my uncomfortable feeling with the people, uh, from that, you know, traumatic event, uh, that was the beginning. That was the beginning of my healing journey, and that was the beginning of me thinking about helping other survivors.

[00:00:38] Hecate: Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding Okay. A healing podcast for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. Today I'm joined by Michelle M. Kang. Michelle was born in South Korea and she is the current dean of the School of Foreign Languages at Saigon International [00:01:00] University in Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam, a survivor herself.

Michelle is the founder and president of One Life, one Heart International, a nonprofit organization which aims to help underserved sexual abuse survivors by offering culturally sensitive community support. She has dedicated herself to creating safe spaces where survivors can feel heard, regain their self-confidence, and fulfill their purpose in life.

And now it's time for trigger and content. Warnings for this episode include the following, trauma abuse, P T S D, sexual assault, child abuse, incest, religion, and spirituality. Please check in with yourself and make sure you're all right to continue. So thank you so much for joining me today and um, I'd like to begin by asking, are you okay?

[00:01:59] Michelle: I, [00:02:00] yeah, I am more than Okay. I am feeling excellent. I mean, just for today, I am exhausted because we have been posting a international on international evaluation, education evaluation team, uh, for a week. For a week. So today was the last day. So I feel exhausted, but in terms of, uh, you know, sexual abuse and my healing, I am feeling excellent.

Wonderful. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:33] Hecate: And I would love to hear a compliment that you've received that you have never forgotten.

[00:02:40] Michelle: Um, when I was in undergraduate, The school, one of the instructors said to me, you have eyes like a deer. Uh, I, I, I can't. Yeah. I can't forget that. Yeah. That comment. Uh, I didn't [00:03:00] ask, what do you mean?

But I still remember that because I think she was the only person who said that. So I still remember it. It's a long time ago. And still remember. Yes.

[00:03:13] Hecate: It's funny, the things that just stick with you, you know? Mm-hmm. You never know. Yeah.

[00:03:18] Michelle: And maybe, maybe, uh, maybe two more people talked about my eyes, but yeah, that's the comment that I still remember very clearly.

Hmm. So, but at, but back in the days I was very shy, so I didn't ask. What do you mean? I just remember, uh, what she said.

[00:03:40] Hecate: And what is your favorite color or color combination and what do you associate with it?

[00:03:47] Michelle: I thought very, very hard about that because I actually feel it's very difficult to answer the question, what is your favorite color

because I enjoy multiple [00:04:00] colors, you know? Always, it's very difficult to answer a question. What is your favorite? What is your, yeah, what is the most, it's very difficult, but I would say, because you asked me, I would say pink, pink, different levels of, uh, pink, different, yeah. Levels of pink. The color pink.

Um, and I relate and I relate the relate associate, uh, a beautiful and peaceful world with it. And there, there is nothing like a violence or whatever. It's so beautiful and wonderful and that's that kind of world. Yeah,

[00:04:47] Hecate: I like that. I haven't, I haven't heard that association, but that, that actually, it makes a lot of sense.

So I like that. I, I switched the little moon lamp in the background to pink for you.

[00:04:58] Michelle: Yes. Oh, thank you for [00:05:00] that. You know, you, you, you think about cherry blossoms, so many different kinds of pink. So amazing. So I like all kinds of, uh, pink.

[00:05:14] Hecate: Nice. Uh, what five things best represent you as a person?

[00:05:18] Michelle: Uh, five things it should be you, you mean?

Uh, things? Uh, objects or just anything?

[00:05:27] Hecate: It can, it can be, they don't have to be tangible, like uhhuh, you go go with your gut and like, whatever, whatever you want. It can be a song, it can be, you know, family or like, it doesn't have to be tangible, so it's entirely up to you.

[00:05:40] Michelle: Oh, since you mentioned song, that's, yeah.

That gives a new hint. Uh, first of all, yeah. I listed, yeah. Made some list. So thirst, thirst for learning. Yeah. I am, I always have thirst for learning. I just enjoy learning just about anything. [00:06:00] And that was me, I mean, since, uh, since I was very young. Um, and I enjoy doing it. So it's kind of weird and desire to help those in need.

Yeah. I am just, I am ready to help actually. But now I know that some people don't enjoy your, your, you know, help. Some, some people don't want it. So I need permission before I get to take action. I, I just learned it. So now I don't take action immediately. I ask if I can help. So that's something different.

But anyway, I am ready to help. Um, the third thing is I pursue beauty, uh, both visible and invisible. So it's a, you know, beauty, by beauty I don't really mean beautiful faces, uh, like somebody, right, [00:07:00] right. Uh mm-hmm. Just, uh, how can I describe it? Like, yeah, it's beautiful mind, a beautiful color, beautiful flowers, whatever it is, whatever they are.

Bu beauty is what I, yeah. Pursue. Um, because of that, I also always care about myself because, uh, you know, how I look, uh, affects others, right? Uh, if I, if I don't, if I look terrible, they're not happy. I make others, you know, unhappy. So yeah, I take care of myself. Uh, the first one will be striving for excellence.

Uh, once I choose to do something, I just wanna be the best. Um, but what if I don't choose? I don't care. So that's, that's me. So I think, God, what has been so patient [00:08:00] to wait until I understand what he wants me to do because I, I ignored it. And when I finally decided to do it, everything changed. And so, uh, so excellence, uh, excellence in what I choose to do.

And the, the, the fifth one is, uh, you know, pursuing sincerity and honesty and authenticity that kind of a thing. I hate, I hate to lie people, et cetera. So if I really have to, uh, it's a, it's not a lie, but if I have to say something that I think I have to say something else, then I, I try hard to find [00:09:00] anything so I can relate to it, right?

In that case, I don't lie to people, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have something that I can provide. So it's not a lie. So I really have that kind of a mind if I say something that is not true or I, I keep thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. That's me.

[00:09:25] Hecate: I love, I love that all, like all of your answers are intangible and that they were all like core values.

That's really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. And um, I would love to know what are three essentials to your self-care?

[00:09:41] Michelle: Uh, first of all, reading. I read a lot. Uh, so reading, like reading. Uh, print books or, uh, listening to audio books, whatever, uh, format it is. Whatever, uh, modality it is. I, I enjoy reading. [00:10:00] The second thing is I enjoy outdoor activities, whether it is a sports or gardening or whatever.

I enjoy outdoor activities. And the third thing is I enjoy traveling. Yeah. So those, the three things are at the top.

[00:10:19] Hecate: Do you have a garden at home?

[00:10:22] Michelle: At the moment, no, but in the future. But, uh, come to think of it, ai, one time I wanted to be a musician, but I, you know, didn't, didn't say anything. You know, that's weird.

What are the five things and also what are the three essentials? I didn't include the music. That's weird. Anyway. And music is me. Also music. Yeah.

[00:10:50] Hecate: What kind of music do you listen to?

[00:10:52] Michelle: Um, all kinds, but one, one time, uh, like in my, um, teens, [00:11:00] I wanted to be on opera singer. Uh, so music is me. And, but I, in the list I didn't even mention anything related to music, so that's weird.

[00:11:11] Hecate: No, I'm so glad you mentioned it. Now it's, it's, mm-hmm. It's so important and it's so healing. Yeah. It's wonderful. Do you play an instrument?

[00:11:23] Michelle: I, I am, yeah. I am vocal over, you know, playing. So, um, yeah, just a little bit playing piano, very little and some other things, but yeah, I haven't focused on any particular thing. Yeah. But I, if I have time, I'll try to make time to learn something. Yeah.

[00:11:46] Hecate: Nice. And I would, uh, yeah, I'd love to know more about you and, and what you do.

So if you can tell me a little bit about that.

[00:11:57] Michelle: So I am [00:12:00] an administrator at a university, uh, located in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. Uh, I have been serving in this education institution since 2014, so it's been quite a while. Um, I learned a lot and I, and, and through my roles and responsibilities, I discovered myself about my strengths and areas of improvement, so areas for improvement.

So it was a very, very rewarding, uh, journey here. Um, oh, and then, uh, I have two PhDs. Um,

[00:12:47] Hecate: wow.

[00:12:48] Michelle: So in between, yeah, in between. I also, uh, I was in marriage and I had the three kids, uh, because my exhusband wanted the three [00:13:00] kids. Uh, I wanted one, but he wanted the three kids. And then I, I just accepted it. That's why I had a mom with three kids.

But they're all now with, uh, with the father, with their father. So I'm by myself and I really enjoy being on my own. It's just so much precious. Every single moment. It's so precious. I mean, just every day, every moment. I am just, just growing so, so precious. I thank God every time, every day. Uh, I, yeah, I might struggle, but that it's not because of me, but because of other things.

Uh, so that's, that's a challenge. Cause I myself, I know, I myself is growing every day. Uh, so when I am, you know, angry or when I feel I am challenged, [00:14:00] that's not me. That's not from me, but from my, uh, environment and so, and other people, yeah. So that's a huge challenge. I.

[00:14:11] Hecate: That's important to have that, that centered self.

Mm-hmm. And you know, and, and then circumstances are what they are and mm-hmm.

[00:14:18] Michelle: Um, yeah. Sorry. I, yeah, I, I cannot help with the screen. It should be like this, but, but then I have to call my phones. It's very difficult. So sorry about

[00:14:29] Hecate: Whatever

works. Whatever works is totally fine. Don't worry about it. Okay. Um, yeah, so I, I would love to know, uh, uh, more about your degrees.

What degrees do you hold? You mentioned two PhDs, which is

incredible.

[00:14:45] Michelle: One is from South Korea, uh, English and Linguistics from English and Linguistics, and the other is from the US. Um, I got my PhD, second PhD in Education.

[00:14:58] Hecate: Wow.

Mm-hmm. Were [00:15:00] you always interested in linguistics growing up, or how did that, how did that happen?

[00:15:07] Michelle: Linguistics and education. Also, I began with the linguistics. Uh, it was not actually based on what I really wanted. It was, uh, based on, uh, what I could choose back in the days. Okay. Yeah. So, uh, at the time I wanted to study something else, but then I could not choose it. So that was, that, that was finally what, uh, what I chose.

[00:15:36] Hecate: Okay.

[00:15:36] Michelle: And then, and then I became an educator. Uh, then I realized that I need to study education to be an educator. So yeah, that was the motivation to get back to school and study more. Um, but, uh, everything is related to education. Uh, no, no, sorry. Language, [00:16:00] language, language, teaching. Even, even in education program, my focus was literacy and, uh, English, uh, the, uh, language, second language learning.

So, you know, everything I studied is related to it. Languages and language of teaching and learning.

[00:16:21] Hecate: Wow. Mm-hmm.

And I'd love to know, um, more about your nonprofit.

[00:16:27] Michelle: The name of my nonprofit is One Life One Heart. So based on my own lived experience, I just chose that name. I created that name. One Life One Heart.

We have one life and we have one heart. It's very precious. Just one thing. Uh, how are you gonna take care of that? Right? So, and it's you, right? You cannot delegate your responsibility about yourself to others, they're [00:17:00] gonna make it horrible. Right. Maybe, or, or maybe doing better, I dunno. But anyway, I would not delegate my responsibility.

So it's, I think it's very, very important. And, and that's why also it's precious. When something is just that, that, that's it, then it's very precious. So every single person is, is precious and important. That's because they are individually, uh, the only thing. Right. Very, very precious. Mm-hmm. So that's how created the, uh, the name of the nonprofit.

Uh, our goal is providing community-based, uh, program for, uh, for particularly the underserved. The underserved um, sexual abuse survivors. Mm. Uh, so I said community based. So there are parts in the program [00:18:00] they can adapt based on the cultural norms in, within their community. So not everything, but partly they can adapt, uh, the program the way, uh, they want.

They cannot change everything, right? Because our program is our own property, intellectual property. So they can, but they can partly. So we, we, uh, we mentioned that in the, uh, agreement, license agreement. Um, yeah. So that's one thing we are doing. Uh,

[00:18:35] Hecate: Can I ask more about the cultural adaptation? Uh, are you able to give me an example?

I'm very curious.

[00:18:42] Michelle: Mm, sure. So, Within a community, you know, there are do's and don'ts, uh, and also there are kinds of norms, especially in the US And then [00:19:00] it's, there is a diversity wherever you go, uh, in almost all, um, states. Mm-hmm. There is a diversity and they are coming from all around the world and they make one community, but just, just, um, geographically or physically, they live in the same community.

But then when you actually get into that community, there is a diversity, right? How can you, how can you, uh, serve people from all different backgrounds, but then, uh, making, you know, creating one community. So, uh, I wanna, I wanted to provide a program that could accommodate, uh, the diversity in terms of culture.

Mm-hmm. So that [00:20:00] anybody, no, nobody might be left out. Uh, I, I, I just wanted to develop a program because, uh, throughout my healing journey, I actually didn't try so many different kinds of programs or, you know, um, intervention, et cetera. I know, but I tried just some, like, and I tried only some, tried to talk with some people.

My, the number is very, very limited. I mean, to me. But then I was very unsuccessful. Um, so that experience, uh, helped me understand who understand the people that I have to talk to when it comes to healing. Mm-hmm. They, they should, [00:21:00] they need to have the kind of heart, they need to have the kind of ears, they need to have, the kind of mouth, et cetera.

They need that. So in one word we say, we might say empathy, right? So it's very important. Uh, so, but then once, uh, people who are coming from all different backgrounds make one community, they also get to, uh, be assimilated, right? So, uh, that's how they make, they probably develop their own culture again. Um, so anyhow, um, there are parts they can, you know, they can adapt our program so that they can incorporate their own culture into that program.

Like a language, for [00:22:00] example, when you, when you respond to somebody, um, it's different, right? If you go to Japan, if you go to, uh, China or, or Vietnam, depending on the cultures, yeah, people can be direct, specific, or people can be indirect just quiet and listening, et cetera. So, uh, just pe if people don't understand the diversity of a culture, they just misunderstand and just judge other people from other backgrounds.

And just, just shut the door of a conversation and that that would be it.

[00:22:47] Hecate: Yeah. It's

difficult too to provide, uh, such, such an incredibly sensitive support mm-hmm. Um, when you are

[00:22:57] Michelle: Yes.

[00:22:57] Hecate: Misstepping, culturally, um, [00:23:00] possibly causing offense. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

[00:23:06] Michelle: But the good news is that anyhow, where wherever you are coming from, you live within, you know, a community and you become a part of that community.

And, you know, time gives you, time gives you an opportunity to be assimilated, right? So that's how wherever you are coming from, you become a part of that community. So I thought that it's possible. Uh, that people within one community can use our program the way they can benefit from it. Mm-hmm. Because somehow they can adapt our program.

There are core volunteers and volunteer onsite, other volunteers. The core volunteers, uh, [00:24:00] can be trained by us. We provide the volunteer training for core volunteers and then core vol. And then after that, core volunteers can run our program within their community. So they, for example, they recruit the volunteers, they will, uh, train their volunteers because we provide volunteer training guide and yeah.

Et cetera, et cetera. But then if they need our help, we are willing to help. Absolutely. Um, what else? And we are, so, you know, we wanna serve the mental health needs of sexual abuse survivors mental health needs because we are focusing on healing and empowerment, not as a medical expert, but as a [00:25:00] non-medical expert.

So we are not actually focusing on, you know, um, counseling. We are focusing on ob observation, uh, providing, uh, feedback. And, and then maybe because of this is a community based program, uh, the participants may wanna move to the next step. So maybe they can go to a clinic. Right. Like a professional, uh, clinic, hospitals, or any kind of intervention program.

So our program is like, is is very, very like a lay person based.

[00:25:41] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:25:41] Michelle: Right. Because I, I'm not medical person, but I know a lot about language and culture. So through those, uh, instruments, using those instruments, I help people to discover where they are, what they want, or what they need to [00:26:00] do for their journey to healing and empowerment.

So we want them to find out what is the next step for them, right? Mm-hmm. So we don't focus on healing. We focus on listening and, and, uh, providing feedback. Cause we are gonna observe what they're doing in our program. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

[00:26:24] Hecate: I like that a lot. So someone, you know, would be able to, to seek that, like medical or professional, you know, support elsewhere

and then through you be able to connect with other survivors and have a, like a sense of community support, which is, um, incredibly important. And personally, in my own healing journey, um, I, I ended up having a lot of that more like, professional help and it left me feeling really disconnected because I wasn't able to, to speak with other survivors and feel like the person [00:27:00] sitting across from me understood firsthand.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, what I was talking about. You know, it, it. Having both I think would be extremely beneficial. So, yeah. And I'd love to, um, I'd love to transition to, to ask about your story and, um, and, and your healing journey.

[00:27:24] Michelle: My story, uh, my story is horrible because one of my eldest brother, uh, one of my brothers actually became a perpetrator.

Uh, so we didn't, within a family, I mean, he's not my step stepbrother, he's my own brother. And, uh, because he and I were, were 12 years apart, he was already like an adult. And when I was only four or five, he's, he's already teenager. And, and also he was, uh, you know, he was living and [00:28:00] going to school in another city sometimes.

He, he was his back home and, and he did that kind of a thing. So you know. He was a teenager. He had had, he probably had a lot of, uh, you know, curiosity about body. Right? And hormone hormone he's going through in his body is different now, et cetera. So, you know, so, I mean, I still don't feel like I forgave him, uh, about other perpetrator.

I don't care. But when it comes to my own brother, I don't feel like I forgave him. I cannot. Mm-hmm. I just, I just leave them up to my God. I, I already, I always say to my God, I don't care. I just, you do whatever you want. I, I, I cannot say anything about that guy.

[00:28:59] Hecate: Yeah. [00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Michelle: And I, I, I have, I haven't been, I haven't been, uh, I haven't visited my hometown, uh, since 2008 because he's now is, uh, living with my mother in my hometown.

[00:29:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:18] Michelle: Yeah, in South Korea. My mom now is a long home in, in my hometown, and my eldest brother together with his, uh, wife, uh, moved, moved into my mother's house and they live together, so I never wanna visit. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing is happening to my life. Can I, I don't wanna see him.

[00:29:45] Hecate: No, of

course not.

Um, can I ask if, uh, if you ever disclosed that abuse to your family, do they know?

[00:29:54] Michelle: I have never talked to anybody. Never.

[00:29:57] Hecate: Okay.

[00:29:59] Michelle: [00:30:00] Never.

[00:30:01] Hecate: And can I ask, um, what, what age were you when the abuse stopped? How long, how long did this go on?

[00:30:10] Michelle: Uh, between the age of five and seven. Yeah. It, it didn't go too long, but that was kind of beginning of me experiencing sexual abuse and that made me so vulnerable and co uncomfortable, you know, uh, getting along with people and yes.

So it was the beginning of my tragedy in my life. Mm-hmm. And, and when I was in, maybe in my grade, fifth grade, I even, uh, tried to, uh, destroy my, uh, memory capacity. So, It was horrible. Come to think of it. [00:31:00] So horrible. So that affected me so negatively. Uh, so finally when I was, uh, in my late teens, I couldn't even remember, couldn't remember.

Uh, so minor things because of my effort to destroy my memory.

[00:31:21] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:21] Michelle: Uh, so it, it was so terrible and tragic. Um,

[00:31:25] Hecate: so you

were focusing on trying to block out or erase memories?

[00:31:30] Michelle: Exactly. Okay. Yeah, exactly. So, okay. Nothing happened. I mean, in my life there was no such thing as like a childhood. I don't have anything like that.

I just kept, you know, uh, like, uh, like, uh, what is it? The, um, Yeah, I kept saying to me like that, and that affected us so much to my, uh, memory capacity. And when I finally was in, you know, [00:32:00] late teens and, or even in my college, I had so much trouble remembering things. It was horrible, especially in the presentation, you know, uh, oral presentation.

I just forget and, and I cannot remember what I have to say, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it's horror. It's, it's horror. Um, it's just like a horror movie. And then that gives, that gives me, uh, you know, fear, uh, when I, next time when I have to do the same thing, right? What if I make the same mistake, right? What if I don't remember again?

So now I am absolutely fine, but it was so much, yeah, so much terrible. So terrible. I didn't understand what's going on in my life, why I had to go through, uh, so many ups and [00:33:00] downs and that kind of, uh, challenges, et cetera. And always why was not a, a regular church goer, but always I talked to God, what, and asked God, what is your purpose?

Why did you bring me here and make me go through this? What is it? Um, just, yeah, that, that is what happened. And then finally when I, when I've been through everything and realized something so beyond my understanding, I just cannot, underst cannot understand the, the immense patience and love and et cetera.

It's just so much to me. I don't feel I deserve that kind of love.

[00:33:57] Hecate: You do.

[00:33:58] Michelle: Um, yeah. [00:34:00] So I just thank you. I just thank God, and, and from my experience also, I learned that, you know, God does not give people challenges. I think he, he chooses people who can bear with those kind of challenges he's going to send.

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and then at the same time, he patiently waits until they realize what, what the challenges are for. Mm. It's just amazing. I, I cannot say how I feel.

[00:34:39] Hecate: Yeah. Actually, I mean, this is the, the perfect opportunity. I did wanna ask, um, what role, uh, religion or spirituality, you know, plays in your healing?

And, um, yeah.

[00:34:52] Michelle: So it was so much.

[00:34:54] Hecate: If you, if you wanna take a moment to, to talk about, um, how that has helped in your healing or, [00:35:00] or what role it plays. Um, I wanna make space for that.

[00:35:04] Michelle: Hmm. So, like I said before, you know, I was not happy. I didn't understand why I had to go through so many tr uh, challenges and so much trouble.

I didn't try to think that God was li loving me. I just kept asking the same question. What, what, what is it? Why is it, why is it for me? Why do I deserve it? Uh, this is all kind of questions and questions. Um, but then he never left me alone in the way I couldn't get out of, uh, a trouble. Always when I was in a kind of a trouble, he gave me something [00:36:00] through which I could get out of it.

It's, it's so amazing. For example, it's a very simple example, but, uh, for example, one time I still remember. In my bank account, I had only like, maybe less than $10 or something. So I, I, I thought, how can I, how can I survive? The next day there was a place I could get money! So I don't, it's just very small things, but it was like this.

Yeah. So there was never one thing, one, one time he just left me alone and just didn't care always when I was in trouble. It is just a moment and just a little while he gave me something and I got back, uh, out of it. So it's so amazing. But still, [00:37:00] I didn't relate everything that's happening in my life to God.

I didn't relate it to God. But, but when I was, uh, in the doctoral program, uh, at Iowa, Iowa State, um, there was a kind of a challenging and complicated the moment. And my dissertation chair I thought, might be in trouble because of me. So I was desperate. And I, I hated, hated it because I, I don't like, uh, any kind of situation that made other people in trouble because of me.

So I was very desperate and that made me go to church. I just walked, walked to the church myself. Nobody asked me to go to church. I did it myself because I wanted to [00:38:00] pray to God. I wanted to beg, pray to God to help her, not me, to help her. But then, oh my God, he, I just, uh, I just knew on it was, uh, December and I kneeled on, on the very cold floor.

Uh, the, the floor is not even wooden floor, it's just a cement floor or whatever. Mm-hmm. So it was very, very cold. I was, I kneeled and like for an hour, uh, I just, uh, prayed maybe because I was desperate. I just wanted to, I wanted something, I wanted to hear something or whatever. But then something happened.

What something, eh, is that he. He took me to where I was with my, you know, uh, sexual abuse. [00:39:00] So I didn't understand why. Yeah, I am praying, I am praying to you for my, um, dissertation advisor. You know, why do you take me there? I didn't understand. Uh, but that was just a moment. I just, uh, immediately I finally realized that all my fear and my uncomfortable feeling with the people of, from that, you know, traumatic event, uh, that was the beginning.

That was the beginning of my healing journey. And that was the beginning of me thinking about helping other, um, survivors by doing something. Uh, so yeah. So, uh, yeah. Cause you asked me about the religion, so mm-hmm. Religion at, at the moment, not at the [00:40:00] time. At the moment is, is everything. To me. Religion is in the center of everything I am doing in the center of who I am.

Yeah. It's just everything.

[00:40:12] Hecate: And did you, did you grow up going to church or is that something that

came later?

[00:40:17] Michelle: No, no. Uh, it came later and then when I was in, like, uh, in the first, first grade, yeah. There was a first church in my little town. There was a first church established being established. My grandmother back then was a Buddhist.

She was a Buddhist, and she didn't want me to go, so, so, okay. So, um, and then in high school I had a chance to go to church. Yeah. So from high school. Mm-hmm. I, yeah. Began going to church, but not as a regular churchgoer. I was never a regular [00:41:00] churchgoer until, uh, I reached my, uh, forties. Mm. Because, uh, I, I never related what's whatever happened in my life to God.

I never related my life to God at the time. Uh, I just, uh, asked, keep, I kept asking so many questions to him. Why did you bring me here? What, what is the purpose? Yeah. It's the same question. I kept asking the same question, asking the same question. Uh, cause my, my, uh, life back then was not happy many brothers and sister, and they were like, uh, tyrants.

Um, and also my, my parents also going or going through, you know, ups and down with their business. Yes. It, it was not [00:42:00] my teenager, my childhood was not really happy moment to me, so

[00:42:07] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[00:42:08] Michelle: I kept asking the same questions, why did you bring me here? What's your purpose? I never asked you to bring me here. So many kinds similar questions.

Yeah.

[00:42:22] Hecate: Do you have a sense, uh, of that, that answer or, or, or purpose now? What is that for you?

Or are you still asking?

[00:42:32] Michelle: Um, at the right now, I don't ask because already I, yeah, I heard all kinds of answers. Absolutely. And even, even when I don't ask questions, he. He, uh, he keeps reminding me of many things. For example, I have a bigger goal, and [00:43:00] at the moment I achieve the small goal.

[00:43:03] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:04] Michelle: And then I am very complacent. Then it, it just, it, it pops to my mind. Okay. This is not your goal. Okay. This is not your goal. Your goal is out there. Okay. So, something like that is, I mean,

So it feels he's always just, uh, with me, around me. Um, he doesn't communicate with me through human language, but, uh, he makes me feel. Yeah. He makes me feel his love. That's so precious. And un indescribable.

[00:43:49] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:49] Michelle: Most of the time. Yeah.

[00:43:53] Hecate: Thank you so much for sharing that. I know, I know that that's deeply personal and, um, and I, I just so appreciate

you [00:44:00] talking about

[00:44:00] Michelle: Oh, if you're not, if you're not Christian, I am Catholic.

I, I apologize. I am so emotion. Oh my gosh.

[00:44:08] Hecate: No.

I, I love talking to, to people from, from all different faiths. Um, and I mean, pers personally, I'm, I'm Buddhist and Pagan, um, as, you know, both, both. And, um, you know, and for, for me, it's. Divinity is divinity. And it takes many forms for many different people. And I love hearing from all sorts of different people.

And if spirituality has been healing to them, then I, I love to give them a chance to, to talk about that healing and the place that it, uh, that it holds for them, uh, so that other survivors can, can hear and uh, and maybe it will help them and, you know, and they'll, they'll find something that they're looking for.

So, um, mm-hmm. Absolutely. Um, yeah,

[00:44:58] Michelle: I mean, it's funny [00:45:00] because I don't know, uh, I mean, is it, isn't it like a chance? Because what if there was a temple instead of a church when I was in my first grade, right? Because the first church was established when I was first grade in my little town. And I was interested in that building.

Okay, so what, what might people do in, in that building? Et cetera. What if there was a temple, right? Instead of a church? Then probably I might be interested in temple, maybe, right?

[00:45:38] Hecate: Yeah, you never know.

[00:45:39] Michelle: Maybe it's a chance, right? It's a chance. Uh, but anyway, God, uh, God, uh, came to me first, right? Yeah. So that's how I met God, so,

[00:45:52] Hecate: Yeah.

Well, and, and that's personally how, how I feel is, is, is that God, um, you know, whatever form it takes [00:46:00] for, for anyone that. That it, it takes the form that it's meant to take for, for each person. So, you know, like different places, it, it comes down in different ways, different houses. For you, it was a church, you know, for, for me it was a temple.

And for someone else, it's a mosque like that, you know, that it, it takes the form it needs to take and, um mm-hmm. You know, if, if it takes any form at all, you know, that, that it's all, yeah. It's to, to me God means love.

[00:46:27] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:28] Hecate: And love takes so many forms and, um, yeah. And that's, you know, and I, I think that's beautiful, so.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So I'd love, I'd love to ask, uh, where have you found the most, uh, support in your healing journey? Uh, have, you know, ha has therapy been a part of your journey? Um, and just, just where have you found strength and support as you've been healing?

[00:46:54] Michelle: Uh, where? I think, um, I think I, two things [00:47:00] I can

tell you one thing is a reading. I try, I, I, I I try to read as many as possible. Mm-hmm. And the other is questions to myself. I kept asking questions to myself. Um, I, yeah, I just, uh, I just didn't just care if I, if I am doing the same thing over and over, I just didn't care and just, uh, leave myself alone.

I ask myself, why do you do that over and over? Or why are you who you are all the time? Can you be somebody else? Can you be, yeah. Can you, can you be better like that? Right. How can you be the same? Right? Isn't it boring? Right? Et Cetera. So, because how can you be the same, right? [00:48:00] Today if you do something, you might be better tomorrow, today you didn't do anything, you might be worse to tomorrow, et cetera.

How can you be the same if you are alive? So I keep Yeah, I, I, I keep asking, even nowadays, I keep asking myself many questions. And then I, and then, oh, yeah. So yeah, that process, yeah. Makes me, you know, go to many places, which might be the answers to my question. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, I think that's the, that's one of the things, um,

yeah, reading and asking questions to myself.

[00:48:46] Hecate: I love that answer. I love that answer like that. Mm-hmm. That introspection and willingness to ask those hard questions of yourself.

[00:48:54] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:54] Hecate: Um, it's something that is so incredibly important and it's something that mm-hmm. Uh, that [00:49:00] not everyone can do, um, or, or is inclined to do naturally.

Um,

and I mean, I mean, I,

[00:49:07] Michelle: I just realized that when I was very young, that I was a kind of person who kept, kept asking questions because even when I was sexually abused at the age of four for the first time, I asked myself, what do I have to do? What? But I didn't know the answer to the question, but I asked my, asked myself the question.

Right? I was at just a four. But I asked myself, what do I have to do? This guy kissed me. What do I have to do? But I didn't know. Absolutely. Yeah. So that was me, and that's me. I keep asking myself questions. Yeah.

[00:49:49] Hecate: Do you, do you mind if, uh, if I ask? Four is such an incredibly young age, um, at, while, while this was going on, was there a point in time like, [00:50:00] or a period of years that you believed that, that this was normal?

Or did you always have a sense that this was not supposed to be happening or that this was something that was wrong? That, that your brother was doing?

[00:50:13] Michelle: Um, no. That, that guy was not one of my brothers. Uh, he was just a stranger.

[00:50:19] Hecate: Oh, okay.

[00:50:19] Michelle: Just a, yeah, just a for of, for a few uh, months he joined the family and yeah, he lived with us.

Uh, my, I, I don't, I have no idea what happened at the time, but anyway, my father, yeah. Made the team, uh, stay with my family, and that's what happened. And yeah, it's all about culture, you know, uh, you know, touching or, you know, converse, how you conversate, converse with others, uh, how you respond. [00:51:00] Everything is about culture.

So, you know, back then, uh, in our culture, uh, you know, grownups can, you know, can hug little kids and kiss them, et cetera. It was, it was a lot to them.

[00:51:17] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:18] Michelle: They could do it because they, I, I mean, yeah, elder, the elderly who, uh, just, uh, respected. They, they had some, they were given some privileges. They can do whatever they, they could do whatever they wanted.

So even though I feel uncomfortable, I had to bear with it. And that was a part of cultural norm. And yeah, so he was a, yeah, older, absolutely older. But his, what he was doing is more than I expected. More than I expected, more than what I expected. That's why I asked myself a [00:52:00] question, what does, what, what is he doing?

What do I have to do? Uh, yeah. So I still remember I was only four, but I did that. So that, that's how I, uh, discovered who I was. You know, I am a kind of person who kept, kept asking questions.

Yeah,

[00:52:23] Hecate: It's an incredibly important quality.

Yeah.

[00:52:27] Michelle: Oh yeah. I, I, hi. Uh, so yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. But that helps a lot.

That helps me, uh, learn so many more that I can.

[00:52:44] Hecate: And when did, when did you start, um, talking openly about the abuse?

[00:52:51] Michelle: Uh, when I just, before I flew to Vietnam, uh, I joined [00:53:00] my friend who is now a vice president of my nonprofit. Yeah. So like, for, for a few months, he, he, he just, uh, invited me to join his family. Um, and then, yeah, he was at that time, uh, I opened my mind.

And began talking about my experience to him. And I mean, it's weird and men, may men. It was, it was, it was men who abused me, but then this guy who's a man makes me wanna open my door, open the door to my heart. So it's just a, life is worth living and life can be horrible. So, yeah, so that's how I got back and [00:54:00] think differently.

Um, because until then I never thought that I could love "guys", you know, male figures, guys, uh, as they are. Uh, so yeah. So during that time, uh, I began, finally, I began talking to him about my abuse. And it was him who always listened to me and who, and I mean, the way he's listening was different. That made me, made me wanna talk more about me.

So, I mean, it was just a, just an amazing process. And it was a, him, I, for the first time talked about my idea to establish a nonprofit too. And it, it was also him [00:55:00] and that I invited to my, to join my, uh, to join me to work together.

[00:55:07] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:07] Michelle: So it's, it's incredible. And he and his family are very precious. So precious, very, very precious.

And Yeah. Yeah. So his wife and I were a part of, it's part of choir, church choir. That's how we got to know each other. Yeah. It was incredible. And without him, I don't think, uh, I don't think anything happened. He's, it's all him. He allowed me to use his, uh, part of his property, uh, for nonprofit,

[00:55:48] Hecate: Oh wow.

[00:55:49] Michelle: Et cetera, et cetera.

It's all him. Yeah. It's all him. That made everything happen. He just listened. Yeah. And he just listened. And then he just provided everything. It's [00:56:00] just amazing. That's incredible. So, yeah, my non-profit is, is, is a part of his property, actually. But he, he ma he made me do it. Yeah. He makes me do it.

[00:56:13] Hecate: Yeah. Those are, those are the people that, that are just game changers for survivors, people who are

[00:56:19] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:56:20] Hecate: there to, to really listen with an open heart, like a non-judgmental mind and some, and support, um, and, uh, I'm so glad that you know each

other.

[00:56:31] Michelle: Exactly. Exactly. And also as you, as you know, there are some people who just, who, who just keep changing their mind.

Right? Like you flip your, your hand. It's so easy to change their mind. Mm-hmm. For some people, he never, he never changes. So, so I actually had a fear. What if he changes his mind? Right. Mm. Tomorrow if he changes his mind, everything will be gone. Can be gone. Right? Yeah. I have a fear, [00:57:00] but he never since, you know, 2000 something, he never changed anything.

[00:57:05] Hecate: Wow.

[00:57:06] Michelle: So precious.

[00:57:07] Hecate: Yeah. That's incredible.

[00:57:09] Michelle: Yeah. Yes.

[00:57:11] Hecate: Thank

goodness, thank goodness for these people.

[00:57:15] Michelle: Yeah. It's so amazing. I just, uh, yeah, I cannot describe my feeling about for that because it's just too immense, too big for me. So yeah, I cannot describe. Oh, I see.

[00:57:38] Hecate: And I'd like to ask, what do you wish more people understood about childhood sexual assault?

[00:57:47] Michelle: Uh, Yeah, child. Um, so one thing, just, um, one thing people can hardly figure out is that [00:58:00] kids are the best target. They are innocent. They have no idea. Okay. Are they, are they educated about sexual abuse? How do they know what's gonna happen?

They're so innocent, they're so out of nothing. They know nothing. Right? Yeah. What they think is the world with lots of beautiful things because what they are saying, what they're reading, everything makes them think that the world is so beautiful. You know, think about, uh, think about Disney World, Disney movies, et cetera.

Anything, yeah. For kids.

[00:58:46] Hecate: Magic.

[00:58:46] Michelle: Everything is so wonderful. Yeah. Magic. It's a full of magic. It's not realistic at all. But then if you, yeah, think about you have, think. [00:59:00] Think about this, you have a kid, but then at the age of three, do not teach kid your kid about sexual abuse, et cetera, right?

[00:59:09] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:10] Michelle: Instead of the world with lots of benefits, and beauty and values, it's, it's very challenging.

Right? Uh, very challenging. We need to educate our kids so that they could, they can protect themselves, but then we don't want them, want to destroy the kind of imagination about the world. They can imagine. It's, it's hard.

[00:59:41] Hecate: Yeah.

[00:59:41] Michelle: So that, so that's how they are the best target for perpetrators. I mean, the perpetrators are the same people like us, but then they is like a addictable, right?

The behavior, our behavior is, is like addictive. Once you do one thing, [01:00:00] something you wanna keep doing it again and again. Hmm. So it's hard. I mean, it's hard. So we need something, uh, yeah, something so, which people are always reminded. It's not kids. Well, when it comes to child sexual abuse, it's not kids.

They can't, can they, for example, can they attract you right? So that they can be sexually abused? It's not possible at all. It's not possible. It's not even possible to imagine that kind of situation. So it's, it's all about grownups when it comes to, uh, childhood sexual abuse. So we need some kind of instrument or, or channel.

Channel or whatever. Through which adults, grownups are, are always reminded. [01:01:00]

[01:01:00] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:01] Michelle: Uh, of course there are still challenges because we are very different. You know, what, what we want from our lives can be very different. Right. So still there are, there might be bad guys and they still want an opportunity to use, to take advantage of kids.

It's horrible people. Right. They're horrible people.

[01:01:28] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:01:29] Michelle: And so when it comes to, yeah, child abuse, too many challenges. Yeah. Because the kids themselves have no idea.

[01:01:45] Hecate: I love the conversation around language. Providing children with the language that they need mm-hmm. In order to express something is happening. Um mm-hmm. You know?

[01:01:56] Michelle: Yes.

[01:01:56] Hecate: That's, that's part of that easy opportunity. Um, yeah. You know that [01:02:00] Yeah. You know, those, those bad adults take advantage

of.

[01:02:04] Michelle: Yes. I know that, uh, because of my experience.

I know that even in preschool

[01:02:11] Hecate: mm-hmm.

[01:02:12] Michelle: kids learn how to protect themselves by using language. Right. No, say no. Right. If somebody touches you, say no. Right. Like that. Yeah. But still, yeah. Yeah. They, they are dreaming, they are, kids are dreaming about life. Their life. Right. They not think about they're, they don't think about bad guys.

I mean, also we don't as a, probably as parents or as, uh, you know, Whoever in the family, we don't want our kids to think about bad guys. Dark word we want. Yeah. That is a challenge.

[01:02:56] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:02:57] Michelle: It's not real. It's not real. Right. [01:03:00]

[01:03:02] Hecate: Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's tough cuz you, you don't wanna be, you know, filling your a, a child's head with, with nightmares or the idea of monsters.

[01:03:14] Michelle: Exactly.

[01:03:14] Hecate: But at the same time, if you don't tell your children about monsters

[01:03:19] Michelle: Exactly.

[01:03:19] Hecate: How will they protect themselves from monsters?

[01:03:21] Michelle: Actually there are

monsters. Right.

[01:03:24] Hecate: Yeah. It's hard too for us, because we don't want to admit that! You know.

[01:03:28] Michelle: Exactly.

[01:03:28] Hecate: We, it's easy for an adult to say there's no such thing as monsters and you know, like you turn your head and, ah!

[01:03:34] Michelle: Exactly.

[01:03:35] Hecate: Here they are!

Very uncomfortable. Um,

[01:03:41] Michelle: That,

yeah, very, very challenging. Mm-hmm. Uh, I am very ambitious because like I said, once I decide to do I wanna be the best. Uh, so the next step is, uh, is about my program. [01:04:00] Uh, we are planning to do a pilot and so I have to be back in the states and I'm go, I'm gonna do the pilot for two or three months and we'll move on from there.

We'll, we'll, yeah, we'll do everything we can. I mean, I mean, we don't do anything terrible, so we are doing, we're gonna do our best. Um, not because, because we want people to know our program, but because we believe that there is, uh, something very precious in our program program. We, we believe in the value of our program.

[01:04:50] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:50] Michelle: So we want people to know about it and they will decide. Right. They will decide. Of course it's not us, but we want them to [01:05:00] know.

[01:05:01] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:05:01] Michelle: And if we can hear from them as feedback, we can also keep developing our program. So that's, that's, that's my next step.

[01:05:14] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:18] Michelle: I, I was not very successful. Like I said, I was not very successful with the conversations or some programs that I just, just some programs that, that I tried. In my little journey to healing, I was not successful. That's why that gave me motivation.

[01:05:39] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:40] Michelle: That's why I decided to develop a program based on what I learned.

Yeah. From my own

journey.

[01:05:48] Hecate: What you would've wanted. Yeah.

[01:05:50] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:05:51] Hecate: I like that. Yeah. Well, I, I hope that everything works well with the, with the pilot and, um, and that it's, [01:06:00] it's everything and it comes together the, the way that you want it to.

Yeah.

[01:06:03] Michelle: We are, we are working on it because, yeah. First of all, I need a visa, so Yeah.

I'm working on that. So yeah. Everything is, uh, yeah. Is, uh, ongoing and I'll see a few in a few months. Mm-hmm. I'll stay and the answers.

Thank you.

[01:06:20] Hecate: Many good thoughts to you in, in terms of, visa stuff is always such a headache. So I,

[01:06:25] Michelle: I know

[01:06:25] Hecate: sending, sending good vibes your way with that one.

[01:06:29] Michelle: I'm almost done. Cause Yeah. I mean, yeah. I've been working on it with a lawyer and it's been months and mm-hmm. She's gonna submit everything, so. Yeah. Yeah,

[01:06:41] Hecate: yeah. Well, and I'd like to, um, yeah, I said, I said one more question, but I, I wanna, um, just offer an opportunity. Um, so, uh, before I ask my final question, I'm going to, I want to make space for something.

Um, and [01:07:00] whenever I have a member of the BIPOC community on, I do want to make space, um, for if, if you would like to talk about race or racism, if that has played any part in trauma or healing for you, or if you wanna talk about it. I wanna, um, give you that opportunity. And if you don't wanna discuss it, that's totally okay.

So I just wanted to make sure that you had that opportunity if you want it.

[01:07:26] Michelle: Hmm.

Um, yeah, I, I wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind discussing it. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I, well, I was very fortunate because I never think that I, in any part of my life so far, I was a victim of racism or ra Yeah. Racism. Uh, yeah, that's, that's also amazing.

Uh, oops. Oh, can you hear me? It's a low battery, so Yeah. I'm gonna be gone. It's, it's just a, just a heads up. Okay. So if I [01:08:00] go, yeah, that's it. Sorry about that.

[01:08:01] Hecate: Okay.

[01:08:02] Michelle: Uh, so yeah, I have never been, yeah, a victim. I just, I don't know. Yeah. Probably I look smart. Uh, I look, I don't look terrible, so yeah. People enjoyed me and just so, yeah.

Um, so never. But then through education, I learned that many people are, you know, going through, uh, tough situation. And I, I, and I can understand that. So, um, well, yeah, I mean, actually many things are happening in our life. Uh, racism is one of them. Of course, I don't like it. Uh, but then when I think about myself and my life, [01:09:00] uh, sometimes I question myself.

Isn't it racism? Right? Are you a racist? Uh, so, you know, unknowingly or unconsciously, sometimes we become, uh,

[01:09:16] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:17] Michelle: Right. We, we just don't know. Uh, so we need to be aware of being somebody else. Otherwise we always easily cross the boundary. I mean the border. So we become somebody else. I think so. So, you know, for example, uh, uh, yeah, I think I have to think, think about listeners.

So, okay. I would not talk about color, et cetera. Okay. So yeah, that's what I learned. Yeah. Okay. Oh, this is my preference. Yeah. Yeah. Really? So yeah, I am yellow. I am red. Okay. I like red. [01:10:00] I don't like yellow. But people are not colors. Right? People are not colors. I mean, even you change your color, right? Your hair color, et cetera.

People are not colors. Okay. You can like colors, right? But people are not colors, you know? I mean, there, there is so much more value that is un in incomparable, right? When it comes to human being, you cannot compare a human to like, uh, objects, right? Chair. Oh, I like my chair, my table. Oh my God. So, okay. I mean, humans are, it's a, it's an incredible creature.

They keep changing their world. I mean, it's just amazing. I mean, it's, it think, think about thinking about human being and their journey from the beginning until now, [01:11:00] you know? So we cannot compare our fellow humans. To something else and say that, oh, this is my preference. I we should not do that. Okay. So that's what I realized.

So I think we can easily cross the, the border. We have to be very careful. I think we have to be aware of it. That's why reading is very important.

[01:11:26] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:11:26] Michelle: It keeps it giving us reminders. So I think, I think those things, yeah. Yeah. Any book, you know, a comic book, whatever it is, there is always a story about people.

So those kinds of things to give us, give us, uh, reminders. The reading is very important. If you don't like a reading, you have to do something. Anything. You have to, just anything. So that you get to, you keep knowing about what, what, what, what people are [01:12:00] going through. Right.

[01:12:00] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:12:01] Michelle: What other kinds people around me, et cetera, so yeah.

[01:12:06] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:12:07] Michelle: Very important, I

think.

[01:12:09] Hecate: Yeah. Well said. Expand your minds. Expose yourself to other people's stories

[01:12:13] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:12:13] Hecate: that are different on your own. Yeah.

[01:12:15] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:16] Hecate: And, uh, and I, I love those things that you mentioned, like reading, expanding your mind, and then also, um, very important thing that you, that you mentioned, like that being able to ask yourself this, that question, am I racist?

[01:12:30] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:30] Hecate: Like, that is a, as a baseline is like a really important thing to be able to do. And, um,

[01:12:36] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:12:37] Hecate: And I, I love that people are starting to have that conversation more and, you know, talk about like

[01:12:41] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:12:42] Hecate: This is a question we all need to be asking ourselves. And so, yeah. Thank you so much for talking about that.

I, I deeply appreciate it. But is there anything that you would like to say to the survivors who are

listening?

[01:12:54] Michelle: You are the owner of you, right? That's, that's what I wanna say. You [01:13:00] are the owner of you. Never, ever try to find somebody who can live your life or who can manage your life. No, no, no. You are the owner of you.

So, uh, and like I said, you know, uh, one life one heart, you are the only one and you have your own heart. Nobody's sharing it with you. Yeah. Nobody can be you, et cetera. Um, and, and, and, and depending on, depending on how you think about life, you can even live forever. Right? Now, think about, you know, uh, Vincent Van Gogh, right?

[01:13:50] Hecate: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:50] Michelle: He, during, during his life, he sold only one piece of painting, but now, Everybody knows him. He has [01:14:00] a museum. Everybody is, not everybody. People are using his, uh, his paintings to make products, right, make bags, whatever it is, whatever they are. So depending on how, what, what you wanna do with your life, you can even live forever.

So I hope, um, people think about the value of their life and themselves and never give up on themselves. That's not easy however, because they have to feel. They have to feel it. They have to trust or believe that they belong to themselves and they are the owner themselves. They have to know that knowing is not easy and accepting is not easy also.

So it. They need to be patient, they need to do [01:15:00] something. Otherwise, nobody will help them to realize that they are the, they are the owner of themselves. They have to find it out. They have to find it out. They have to do something. As I said, whatever it is, they have to put all of themselves into something and through that process, they discover themselves.

[01:15:33] Hecate: Yeah.

[01:15:34] Michelle: That's what I wanna say.

[01:15:36] Hecate: Thank you. Yeah. And I, I love that you talk about that because it, it is such a journey owning yourself and knowing that. Uh, that you belong to you, after experiencing certain traumas in life.

[01:15:50] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:15:51] Hecate: Incredibly important and. Yeah. And I, I'm just so filled with gratitude.

Thank you so much for your time. Thank [01:16:00] you so much for, for your truth and just like your incredibly beautiful words and sharing so, so much of your story and of yourself and, um, and for sharing so much of, uh, of the beautiful work that you're doing in the world. And I'm, I'm just so grateful for, for you and, and everything that you're doing and for this time that we had together.

And thank you for, for making this time with me. So

I really appreciate it.

[01:16:25] Michelle: Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for the opportunity, your time, and especially your patience. Like I said before, you know you. Yeah. You've been very patient. You tried again and again. You never gave up. You

[01:16:39] Hecate: Oh,

that's right! In the beginning with the tech stuff.

[01:16:42] Michelle: Yeah. Right. Many ways.

[01:16:44] Hecate: We got here. We got here, we did it.

[01:16:47] Michelle: Thank you so much.

[01:16:48] Hecate: Yeah, thank

you. And, uh, you, and have a beautiful rest of, uh, evening for you, right?

[01:16:55] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:56] Hecate: Yeah. Have, have a beautiful rest of your evening. I'm just starting my day. Thank you. I'll go, [01:17:00] go get more coffee. You get some

rest.

[01:17:01] Michelle: Exactly, exactly.

Thank you.

[01:17:04] Hecate: All right. Thank you. Bye. Yeah, take care.

[01:17:06] Ramshackle Glory: Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life, for your life. Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life.