Ep 38: F**k Zulu!

Hello this is Sean and welcome to fuck your opinion a movie review podcast before we get started please make sure to like follow subscribe, write a review of this podcast wherever you are listening right now and please be sure to follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram all those are linked in the description. Enjoy the episode All right, let's do this. The words of Sylvester Stallone let's do this. Hello and welcome to fuck your pain in a movie review podcast with your Shawn in my aggressive co host who likes to attack for no reason whatsoever? Hmm. Scotto very well, somewhat justified in real life just oh in real life? Well, I mean, not like attacking Rorke's Drift per se but like well starting title. Yeah. We're starting the war. Yeah. We're coming in. Hi, we're coming in. Hi. We're gonna get into that later. We're a movie review podcast. My co host Pena yas. always doing annoying shit yada yada Scotto here Yeah, I'll be your I'll be the musical accompaniment for tonight. Featuring a selection I hope not please don't know soundtrack or the the the musical compositions from the film Zulu 1964 directors site and field starring Michael Caine, Stanley Baker and a whole bunch of natives who lutes Shawn take it away. Oh, he jumped on it jumped on I supposed to ask you Jani. What movie did you pick? And then you were I just fucking did it. Did I blow up your scene? I blew up your scene did he blow up my scene? Like the Zulus blow up the hospital with the fire with the numerous fires that they sent out. Actually, if you're paying attention to that shot, it wasn't a Zulu that set fire to it. It was a British officer firing his gun out of a hole in the thatched roof that asumu had made. And that ignition is what sparks the fire. Here's the thing. Jani was I paying attention? Yes. But I was paying attention when I watched the movie two weeks ago when we were supposed to originally record and I forgot a lot of it. So I had to write before we recorded today. I tried my best to rewatch it. I only got about halfway through. So I didn't get to that bit again to remind myself so I apologize that I forgot from two weeks ago, but I've watched other things since Okay, I watched The Man Who Would Be King also with Michael Caine. Pretty good movie not going to talk about it. But you know, did some research about I'm not going to get into more details about it. That's what I'm saying. Don't anyway, this is a movie review podcast. All right. And what we do is we trade back and forth picking movies that one of us love so the chooser allows that they know that the other person is going to hate now this normally I would say Jani what what mood you pick this week, but Jani said Zulu and he explained a little bit so Jani, you said a little bit about Zulu. But why did you pick Zulu? I think is the better question Why Why did I pick Zulu? It's probably one of the most one of the most underrated war films out there. I think. You hear a lot especially like films from the 60s but you hear a lot about oh man what else I mean I hear a lot about hear a lot about can't remember I guess what I'm trying to say escape you there are a lot of war films about World War Two less about World War One tons about the Vietnam War a few about you know, Desert Storm. We watched one recently tons of world war two oh my gosh, to many about World War Two. But you don't really hear about a lot of the campaigns before that. There's some Civil War stuff out there. to a lesser extent, yeah, but this is like a very niche thing. And I didn't know anything about that battle at Rorke's Drift before I came across this movie film. I'm sorry film. I didn't know anything about it before I watched this film. I just found it one day on on Netflix and I was like, Oh, this is cool. The description I imagined was something like you know 100 some odd British officers hold off 4000 Zulu tribesmen sold I love you know, late 19th century, South African Alamo, watched it was just kind of blown out of my seat. I loved it. So much. Just thought there was there was a lot of great stuff there. I was surprised Not that I had not not only that I had not watched it. By that point. I was probably like in my late teens, early 20s, but I hadn't heard anything about it. And so I probably come back to visit it three or four times since then this is probably like my fourth viewing in the last 10 years. I could watch it more. Yeah, sure. I know. There are movies films out there that I do watch once a year, get off my back about it, but not on your back. I watched it. I loved it. Love A lot of things about it. I know it's not perfect. The production history is very troubling and troubled, and also like a little bit uplifting, too. It's complicated, some places complicated, it's complicated. But ultimately what you get from all that, from that whole situation is just a really great experience a really great viewing experience that I want more people to know about. So I didn't pick a film that I thought you would necessarily hate. I picked one that I wanted people to know about Zulu, there it is well Jani. Thank you for that. It is funny that you bring up that you've literally never heard of this movie and that no one talked about this movie. Because funnily enough, my high school biology teacher hyped this movie up all the time. He was also my cross country coach and he knows to be like Sean, you're a movie guy. You gotta watch Zulu all about that Zulu. He's all on the Zulu train. Great guy. Coach kill it off. Great, great. Teacher great coach, Coach killed off killed off like someone killed killed or killed them off. I am making fun of my high school girl. What is his actual name? Kilduff spell it KILDU ff I might have done something like that. Yeah, killed off. Okay, kill the dog anyways, anyways, Coach K gruff man, I love you. But the thing is, I couldn't take your opinion on this film seriously, because around the same time as when the Smash Hit avatar came out and and wow, all about what a piece of shit that is. And the fact that Coach K was all about like, he was all aboard the avatar tree. And he's like, this is such a fantastic film masterpiece. I'm just saying myself. I can't I can't trust you. I can't trust you at all. So I put off watching Zulu for a decade. I'm sure you regret it now. Anyways, avatars a masterpiece, folks? Yeah, we all know that's not true whatsoever. And that stupid thing that annoys me about you picking this movie on it is that I explicitly said previously, you know this, that we were going for a heist theme and you like Fleetwood Mac broke the chain in the words of SpongeBob you soiled it? We had a good thing going and he said I'm gonna do no No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you had a good thing going you had a good thing going I didn't care about I don't do a a seasonal or a decadal arc to to my, to my pics. I just pick whatever I want based off what you go for. And so I'm just feeling Zulu. I wanted to go with Sinhalese and it's kind of a it's kind of a heist, you know, it's a failed heist. The Zulus were trying to take back take back their legs of their land. Yes. And it wasn't actually it also wasn't necessarily a failure. It was a mall technically it's the highest if you look at is the British stealing the land and I guess they're they succeed and that they steal the land and the diamonds from the Zulus. But anyways for that the Zulus let them spoiler alert. The Brits should have lost this but the Zulus were like nah, y'all. Y'all put up a good fight. We're gonna let you live for now. That's not what happened in real life. Yeah, okay, Shawn, what happened in real life? I know. But what happened? Get tell about tell the audience so at the relief came, I'm not I'm not going to get into I we are just in the beginning of this episode. And what happened in real life is going to come out later on. So the short answer is the British reinforcements came to save their assets as opposed to the Zulu tribe bound out as a sign of respect. So that's all I'll say right now. We'll get into it later. Anyways, Jani. What is the next thing we do? After you explain why you liked the movie? I think you give some sort of you make some sort of joke. You make a lot of jokes, almost. I don't know. It's been too long. What do we do next? If you actually look at the structure, if you pay attention and you change it on me? Did you change the structure you always forget to give your rating? I always have to remind you, you already gave a rating What is your rating? My rating? 8.3 out of 10. If I can do decimals. Interesting. Interesting. Can I do that? All right. Do you think the Zulus had a system for decimals you're just trying to provoke me right now? You're trying to provoke me to get me angry? I mean, I'm gonna let it go. I'm gonna let it go on numerical system unlike their like the British Empire. I'm gonna Let it go Oracle system, I know sure. But if I focus too much on such I'm gonna come to any language lusion did as opposed to forcing you I would do my well what an 8.3 is in that system if it's allowed, if it's permitted, sure Be my guest that not that you are the guest, you are the co host. I have to stress here the code. You beat me to it, folks. That's a callback because Yana keeps insisting he's a guest, which is the bane of my existence. Well, the decimal thing is the bane of my existence. The guest thing is second you I thought about Tony rigatoni the other day Oh, my God. Okay, folks, we're not going to talk about Tony record, Tony. And also set you know, Jani and I met up recently and we did a retrospective on the past year, that episode is actually going to come out after this one. So when he says Tony, rigatoni, you'll get more you'll learn more about Tony later on, but you also will not learn anything else about Tony. That's all I'll say. Anyways, moving on. The next thing we do is the opposer, the disinterested disaffected party as you will give us a plot summary. So me being the person who did not choose the movie, and Jani being the chooser that means that I give a plot summary. So despite being colonizers, hell bent on destroying the Zulu Empire and stealing all their resources. The British soldiers end up still being an underdog force in which they have to defend their little patch of land with like 150 guys versus 1000s of Zulu warriors and kill what like 4080 guys a pop and big battle Think of it like assault on precinct 13 and they make it out with barely any casualties are like Yo, that's like 30 which for for a force of like 130 is a lot on reality. It was 17 so food for fat food Well, no, that's deaths casualties includes includes injured Yeah, you kept telling me about that when I visited. That's the same thing with the Zulus that I think it was like something around 900 casualties but that also includes injured that doesn't that's not just dead. Oh, I wish you were a casualty and I strike I want the casualty to be you're like so near death that you want to die, but you don't die. And it just kind of stretches out for years and years and years and you're incapable of doing anything in your life besides wanting to die but you can't die and then I come in and you I come in near like hospital bed or whatever. No, sorry, you don't get a hospital bed. You're like, on the street in a corner dying like somewhere you'd find ratso Rizzo from Midnight Cowboy to some dump. You're crying your heart out and then and then you're like, Shawn, just kill me now. And then I take a knife out, I put it in your throat and I say you're not worth it. And then I stab the board right next to you, but you have no strength to actually go and take it in grabbing slit your own throat. So you just have to look at it as I walk away and story. That's the kind of casualty Oh, so anyways, that that's that's the Sean's not that far off. Basically a basic rundown of this is Zulus launch a launcher campaign on whoop, I think I pass gas there. Cut that out. I couldn't keep that because you said it and I couldn't hear it. I'm gonna add a sound effect. Sean added the sound effect that it's a big fart. Like natcher anyways, a Soyuz launch a campaign against the British one morning they ambush force of about 1000 kill every single kill almost every single man there take the guns. And the next stop they make is Rorke's Drift, which is a little missionary outpost that has something around like 130 soldiers at it. And over the course of one day in one night, the Zulus just keep on attacking and attacking and the Brits managed to hold them off. For I mean, in total, it's probably around like 16 hours they managed to hold them off 130 something officer soldiers against between three to 4000 Zulu warriors. It ends with the Zulus not giving up, not surrendering, but just saluting the soldiers bravery and then allowing them to live. That's not how it actually happened in real life. We'll talk about that later. But there you go movie in a nutshell film in a nutshell. Yeah, that's what happened. Okay, hold on. Before we keep going I have to use the restroom real quick. For kind of came out of nowhere. All right. Can you hear me? You have the headphones in right so you can hear me right? It's weird now. Now in the context of your layout. Having been there and knowing where the bathroom is where your cat is, I know I know what's right and what's left to what I am viewing. I know your little setup. It's It's It's fascinating. I now have this context. I also I still work regret not spending the fucking time to properly set up your studio so I actually sound talk about Carlyle don't you don't have the permission my permission to talk about Carlyle when I am not on screen, right Carlyle is none of your files name. You can talk about my home you can talk about the layout Captain anonymous you can everything else but you do not mention Carlyle. All right, I didn't use Carlisle's name I use. I was respectful I didn't have Carlisle's permission nor that I have here it's not about privacy. It's not about privacy. I've mentioned Carlyle by name on this podcast before it's just you it's you talking about my cat you don't get to talk about my cat kind of being mean So anyways, I know he said you got me all fired up this one's gonna be a hot guys it's gonna be a hot one he episode he lives through South Africa is gonna burn down we got an apartheid coming like all the couple fires that there are numerous fires hot just doing it just a yogi thing you want to do the yoga thing just do it now you do burning to do it. So folks, this section of the pie there's Shawn does a yogi green tea quote to settle the flames settle the fires if you will to doubt our Yeah. Anyways, quote is this is going to hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt me. Oh, sorry. That's a quote from the movie. And normally I was never funny. It's never it's never funny. You're it's never funny. Now normally folks, I would say I would say okay, here's my actual Yogi aren t quote but I got a little special surprise for Jani now. No, it was I introduced the yogi green tea quote about 30 episodes ago when we did the full monty because that was a British movie as well. And this is a British movie too. So I got a little little low thing. Yeah, can you read what I have? No, it's hold it closer to the camera. Can you read that now? Oh, wait, why would I know? A pocket Dictionary of the vulgar tongue said this is basically a pocket dictionary from 1785 with basically course language for the time and what it meant. So I'm going to just call Jani something Jani you have duck legs? That's not true. I had a good one earlier. I mean, only look it up Give me a second. Oh, that wasn't the good one. Shawn I have to I have to Johnny over all my neighbors to keep quiet because they won't stop laughing so now it's it's this this I'm trying to educate you right now. Okay, so how about you shut the fuck up? So Jani You are a gentleman of three ends now I'm sure you're wondering folks was a gentleman of three ends and how do I use that? What does it mean? It means you are in debt and gal and in danger of remaining there for life or in gal indicated what and in danger of being hanged in chains it's pronounced jail that's how he a jail Yes, it's that's that's the jail. So let me let me re say that in debt in jail and in danger of remaining there for life or in jail indicted and in danger of being hanged in chains. That's, that's Johnny or you can be a gentleman of three outs that is without money without wit and without manners. Some add another out IE without credit. That's what you are gentlemen have three outs or outs your 40 to four outs here is for your gentlemen have 3.5 outs. No I don't have any credit I pay for everything with cash that's I also don't have a bank account. That's that's what are you Magic Mike? You do not have a credit score Magic Mike. You got to flatten those dollar bills Magic Mike. Of course, no one's gonna approve your loan. You don't have a bank account Magic Mike. I don't think is his his first name magic and his last name Mike No, or whatever his name is, does he have to first names Magic Mike. And then he has an a last name like Rothstein. Or maybe my last name is not Roth IRA because he certainly does not have steam. Alright, let's So focus to it. What we're gonna do when we talk about this movie, we're going to talk about our three favorite aspects and then our three least favorite aspects. Yana, you want to start us off with your first favorite thing about this movie? Oh, yeah, sure. I'd suppose one of my first my first favorite thing is going to be the dynamic between the two main characters. lieutenants. Brom hadn't chard, played by Michael Caine and Stanley Baker. I liked john Cleese. Yeah, that's when I call him not john Cleese, when john was standing. That's what Michael and john do stand in Stanley Baker, Stanley Baker. You can't tell me he doesn't cook like john Cleese. Yeah, no, he doesn't. I bet is not what I thought at all. No. Oh, I kept seeing Oh in the bridge saw more handsome catch song him and the other guy look like Michael Pailin. Okay anyways, yeah, I really liked the did not dynamic between these two characters you're first introduced to both of them roughly at the same time. Stanley Baker's Lieutenant Charlie has come down to the Rorke's Drift to construct a bridge across the local or the nearby river. And he's doing that with some of Lieutenant Brahm headsman. Lieutenant Bromhead is returning from a hunting a brief hunting expedition. And so they first meet up at the this river and there's instantly you know, some tension between them because Charlie chard was using some of Brahm henchmen without any permission and Bromhead is supposed to be the the supervising officer there but Charlie technically has seniority by like four or five months. And so over the course of the film, for about the first hour or so they're kind of just like going back and forth. Brom heads kind of a prig. Charlie's a pretty down to earth guy. They're rubbing each other the wrong way. And as they're forced into battle, those differences those contentions just kind of like dissolve as the necessity to survive and cooperate rises between them. And that's great. It's really just, it's kind of like the it's the heart and soul. I think of the film is that relationship between the two of them like this podcast? No. No, the the I'm the heart and soul. You're like the the feet. You know, you keep it going, but you can survive without the feet. You can't survive without a heart but feet there are plenty of people in wheelchairs. I'm like the baritone that gets shot. No, you're like, what are you like? You're like, well, I'm Hawk. I mean, let's you're like, I know you're like one of the corpses in that first in that opening shot. One of those British soldiers like hanging off the wagon and that really like beautiful tracking shot across the battlefield. You're no, no, I am hook. Listen. Well, as soon as hook was like, on my arms hurt I got arm pain. I'm like, Bro, I feel Yeah, I'm in the same spot. We're like the same guy. Your little dirtbag. I'm a little dirtbag. Same guy. Okay, yeah, no, I can see that now that once you start describing him and yourself as a dirtbag I get it. You know, yani, you're like, the guy underneath the bunk, that the one who has PTSD is going crazy and can't like walk in. And I don't think he has to say I think he has some sort of like brain infection. Yes. Something Who knows? And Boyd? I don't know, I can't anyways, yeah, I saw two weeks ago, part of what a big element of their relationship is the dialogue between the two of them. It's just really natural. But at the same time, it isn't like, you know that in real life these guys would have been taught wouldn't have been talking like this a couple times. Bromhead just very nuts. nipply. Oh, what's the word? I'm thinking of? Emily's a good word for it. Yeah, he's just kind of checks out of the way and says, It's not my responsibility. I'm not the senior officer speak to chardee. It's his job, things like that. I don't have a quote for you right now. I can't pull it off the top of my head. I mean, I wrote what can I just say the quote because I know Yeah, sure. In Canada. first lesson my grandfather the general ever taught me when you lead your stand alone? That's one of the numerous quotes and it's Yeah, that doesn't feel natural. But at the same time, it like really does real job in the context of the film. And maybe that's just because the performances mesh so well with the tone. It's not and it's not just, you know, the conversation between conversations between Bromhead and chardee. It's conversations between the missionaries and I can't remember the the soldiers name, but he's talking with him as they're preparing for the onslaught boy, and, boy, what will God do? Boy? He's constantly saying it is just kind of irritating. It's a little okay. Yeah, the missionaries aren't crazy. They could have used some work. That's like one of my few hours of the film. We'll talk about it later. But everything just the tone, the at the the tone, the performances, dialogue, the acting it all, it all meshes very well, I guess is the point of what I'm saying. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really have anything else to say. Yeah. To Add to add to what you are saying one of my points. Well, I'll talk I'll add to what you're saying. And then go on to my first point, which is specifically what you started with the chemistry between the two leaves, I thought was incredibly strong. And like you said, it is the backbone of the film and what I really liked. You pointed out that Michael Caine had this like to use the word again, like sniffly kind of jabs towards chardee. I'll just call it I guess his name is Charles Didn't think his name was sharp. His name is chart chart chart in a, anyway, Chardonnay. Anyway, what was so great is that it was this simmering tension between the two throughout the whole time. And particularly It was a very interesting, I can't remember a shorties Welsh or not but I know that the majority of the soldiers there or Welsh not in real life but in the movie and to have Michael Caine play this British aristocrat who's basically a posh rich boy who fell into this line of work because his basically, it's a family line of work, you know, like his father has done it, his grandfather and so on. So it's less that he is accomplished and more that he comes from accomplish family. So he has this sense of entitlement, even the very beginning when he is like shooting animals at game and has a bunch of servants helping now. And then when he goes to talk to shorty chart, he's like, Hey, I'm using your guys. And Michael canes, like Who gave you permission to use my guys. And that, again, that tension between the two is throughout the whole first half, and it's so juicy, and it's so delicious at every time they jab at each other, it's with the understanding that they still have a job to do and that they disagree. It's not something where in a lesser movie, I feel like one of the characters would go would be more extreme about it, and would not go along with the others plan and would do something Cain would just like he would he would either not fight or he would do things to undermine or just things like that, or he'd run off they'd make him eat Exactly. And it's a very it's something where another movie that does this really well is the gray and which Liam Neeson and Frank Grillo have strong disagreements between their philosophies on basically how to survive, but at the end of the day, come to an understanding that listen, we got to work together to survive, or we're fucked. And the fact that these two basically do come to that understanding, it takes a little bit of time, but at the same time, Michael Caine is never going out as well. While he might make those snide comments, he's never truly doing anything to serve the other guy's authority as soon as he learns charges and charges, like I guess I had to play ball. But like I said that what I really want to talk about is just the class clashing between the two. And how shorty is more of the average guide. Again, I can't remember he's Welsh or not, but I'm assuming he is. So the lower middle class, the more practical guy versus chart, just a step in real quick chart. He's US Army engineers. He's not US Army, us. Army engineer. He's not from that detachment or regiment. He was sent down there. So I don't think he's actually Welsh. Okay, well, regardless, he's he still doesn't have that. He doesn't have that wealth or pedigree that Michael Caine has. So it's still an interesting contrast between the two and their philosophies and everything. And it's great. And also, I really love that the two are equals as leads, as opposed to one really usurping the other. And because of that a lot, they basically share every scene together, more or less, at least in the first half, and there's so many great shots between the two. It is is just great. And then to get into my first real point is number one, I said Michael Caine, a proper gentleman, and then I bolded all caps and underline, gentlemen, not just bold, underlined, too, so you know, he means business. And now the reason why I say or why I did that is to annoy Jani because folks when I went to visit Jani, and you'll you'll hear more about this on the one year anniversary episode, but we got into a long debate and a long argument about about submission of words basically, just some answers all about Savannah. And one of the words that we are used about was the word gentlemen, Jani. What according to you does, gentlemen mean what is it supposed to me? No, it's not that it's not what it's supposed to mean. It's it's what the word originally meant, which was a landowning man. In it was like 19th and 18th century England that's Britain honestly, that's what the word gentleman that that was the origin of the word that's what it meant. And it referred only to land owning men and then you know, over time it was corrupted and it came to me and just like any sort of erupted that mean, an upstanding person, an upstanding Oh, I'd say guy Payne, a classy guy and well mannered guy which is okay, like I get it. I get how that makes more sense when it has the word jab across people, whatever tend to have better advocate well they they're better than us you know they're superior I know who's now gentlemen in either definition, you you're not a gentleman in either definition I you're going jurco doesn't own shit. I own a cat own. There's some sort of property. There you go I have a cat. No, the cat Carlisle's not my name technically Karl technically Carlisle's Mona's I just Damn it. I really don't have anything Do I posters? I own posters. Oh, wow, I I own a samurai poster. I must be a gentleman. Yeah, yeah, at least you know, I have I have good taste. So okay, that's not a real point. Now, are you actually going to praise Michael Caine's character and I'm gonna praise Michael Caine's character because, as I said before, I have been watching a couple of Michael Caine movies, and particularly younger Michael Caine, because I had never really watched too much younger Michael Caine and you just don't realize because of just how he's perceived these days, as you know, the Alfred, you don't realize how great of an actor he was back in his day. He was tremendous. And I think this performance in particular is so great, because a it's introducing Michael Caine. It's his first big movie role, but also it is so different than anything else I've ever seen him in writing that we're so kratt who snooty. Yeah, who snooty and just talks and this I don't know how to put it but like, there's a name for that accent. Yeah, I don't know what it's called. But certainly they haven't speaking that. Well. He's got native he's not native, but he's got a you know, a natural cockney accent that is called speaking axacon he's not Cockney is not cocktease not posh. But no, it's not posh. She put that on, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, but what I'm saying is just it was very different than what he normally does. And it just, it was really effective. Now I I'm obviously not British. I don't know how accurate he sounded or not. But to me, for me, I'm like, Damn, Michael Caine. You're really selling it. And I thought it was just a really interesting character to put in this movie and a guy who has a legacy to uphold, but at the same time has not really seen battle or he hasn't really seen a battle right? No, no, no, that's not only has he not seen battle Yeah, neither had chart you learn at a certain point after everything's over. So it's just it's crazy. Oh, it's just to be this rich boy who's like, I'm not gonna see anything and I go like, Hey, dude, your fuck you're gonna be this bass battle. It's his and seeing how the character evolves and grows going from like, again, like this stiff upper lip to war is how this is awful. I never want to do this again. You know, idolizing to this was pointless. What was it even for? Yeah, seeing a Michael Caine's performance, but also the characters growth is just truly amazing work. Anyways, couple fun facts about that, by the way, I just want to say a couple things. One, he was paid 4000 pounds for this role, which isn't, you know, a lot in 1960s money. It was maybe like, I don't know, four or five times that much. Still not a lot. But even less when you hear that Stanley Baker Brom chart was paid 30,000 and the guy who played the missionary was also paid 30,000 for his role, oh my god. And he said like, how is it like half the film and second, the Zulus, the the native Zulus, who had not really seen anything like Michael Caine before made fun of him for his long blonde hair. And their nickname for him was lady, which seems a little bead. But what's funny is the the tribe historian who, who was a consultant on the film, after Michael Qaeda had enough of it told them to stop and they just they did not even dare to call on that after that point. Interesting. Okay, my second point, yeah, same thing, same thing, same thing that I just got, you say your thing, God. So I was listening to another podcast in preparation for this. And they were saying that Michael Caine's audition for this role was so bad that the director desperately did not want to hire him. But they were kind of in a last minute pinch. And he was like the best of the shit bunch. They just had to go with somebody. And it was again it was last minute sort of like fuck it, I guess are just taking Michael Caine with us. They just supposed to leave the next day, right? Yeah, yeah, it was something like that. It's like we're talking about Michael Caine. This is and this was a huge role for him. This is what catapulted his career. Yeah, you know that Italian Job, Alfie. Was that gangster number one. Oh, that's not it. Well, anyways, second pack. Forget Carter, which I started harder. That's the one I need to get back. I was gonna say what I've seen of it is really good. Anyways, next point. Second point this isn't a broad point this is like very specifically this like six to eight minute stretch of time towards the end and this is the last stand. The morning after the attack the barracks have burned down and the British soldiers are preparing for the for the Zulus final assault the Zulus come up to within about 200 yards of Rorke's Drift and they begin singing a battle cry or about yeah yeah battle cry guess pounding on their shields with their spears just to really intimidate and frightened British soldiers and at some point charred who is who met with the the the regimen, regimen, company, whatever. The company choral instructor choir choir master earlier on Ask him if he knows any songs he can sing well, while the Zulus are doing that battle cry and so he starts singing and as he's singing other men join in and chart encourages them to all sing along and so you've got like half the company singing and this sort of like musical battle you know, it really like showcases like a dance off what what No, it's not like a dance off but I guess what I'm saying is it places them as equals in each other's eyes or at least it creates a sort of effect where it's like American Idol but South African idol Yeah, sure. Anyways, it's a it's a brilliantly composed, brilliantly composed scene. And after that happens, the Zulus begin charging and the Brits they keep up the song and I don't remember the name of the song what it is. And Zulus attack force the British back and the British are in like three lines and there's just like this minute of straight firing, changing off firing it well. And when like all the smoke clears, it's just bodies right up to their feet and the rest of the Zulu warriors in retreat. And that's really cool. There's like, not a not a moment of rest there. Your heart's kind of like pounding the whole time watching it. I know, it was for me the first time and it's still you know, fourth, the fourth time around, it was still producing that effect on me. And then after that, the Zulus come back after like three or four hours, just when everyone thinks it's over. The Zulus arrive at the on the mountain ridge, and everyone's kind of just like giving up hope and saying, Come on and attack and what the Zulus do is they they start singing some other song in praise of the British soldiers efforts saluting them as equals and even though that's not true, even though it didn't happen, you still me as an equal No. Even though that didn't happen in real life. I love that I just love that that honor amongst soldiers, that that ability to recognize someone else's valor or someone else's courage in the line of battle is really great for me and ending just in general I think the last shot is charred picking up a Zulu shield and planting in the ground sort of like a victor plants their flag, recognizing that the Zulus were the actual victors Not, not the Brits. So the whole last 15 minutes of this movie film just perfect shot. I like that. I'm not emphatic about it like you are, but that was pretty solid. don't really talk about it much more than what you talked about. I because I mostly agree. Just you know, on a lesser degree, but yeah, anyways, my next point, Jani, you were just talking about the ending of the movie, I want to go back, I'm gonna go back to the first half of the movie. What I really liked was this impending sense of doom throughout the whole first half where there is this building up tension. It's just very slow, very gradual, but you're just waiting for that released a pop, you're waiting for the Zulu tribe to come. And it's so consistently being foreshadowed. For example, there is a sound out in the distance and Michael Caine goes sounds like a train sounds like a train now. And it really does sound like Oh, fuck, something's gonna happen. And it's the Zulus beating on their shields, by the way, and watching the movie The first time. You're just like, when is this going to happen? When is this going to happen? And they're all getting set up and everyone's getting ready. And just this whole first half of this preparation is truly phenomenal is something that just puts you on the edge of your seat the entire time and leaves you so unnerved. But in the best possible way. It's something I want to know is that this movie reminds me a lot of assault on precinct 13 which is john carpet a movie that I absolutely love. I absolutely adore one of my favorite carpenters one of my favorite films honestly of all time. No, my favorite Carpenter is a thing. No Jesus Christ. Get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck outta here. Anyways. I saw on precinct 13 and this movie have a similar structure as well and that the first half is like building this tension and also in how the antagonistic force is really More of a force than any kind of character, they're more like a mass a group that kind of just comes and is just scary and intimidating, but is almost faceless in a way. We'll get into more of that later on. But in terms of that sense, again, that sense of doom and that feeling of we are so fucked. We are so unprepared. It is just tremendously effective. And one of the best I've seen do this, anything you want to say about that? Jani? Oh, no, I agree. Watching it this time around. I was thinking that all the while just how things were gradually building like you were saying, character reactions, interactions were becoming more intense, people were becoming a little more anxious. You know, preparations. fortifications were drawing up as as they drew closer, the drama, between the missionaries and officers was also growing to you just across the board, things were just so carefully, perfectly cultivated to generate that tension that you don't realize that the Zulus don't really show up until the midway point. Another thing this is just such a well, if structure matters shoe, this is such a well structured film into like they hit all the beats when they're supposed to, again, not that that matters. But it's impressive, to say the least. Well, I think it matters a lot. Well, it matters. It matters a lot. I like films that try to transcend the idea of the structure, but it's hard to it's almost impossible to get away from isn't it? It's like it's just naturally This is how things are supposed to work. And this is how stories are construction construction. And I mean, listen, I'll say I think in college when I was in college, I was very anti structure. But that was just because structures so easy to get wrong. If you're doing a very cliched and hackneyed story, it just becomes very obvious on the nose where something like this is the same structure as a lot of other things. But when you get the structure so precise, and so well it just really helps push your film over the edge it makes it so much longer, where if this didn't have the precision that you were talking about, everything would have fallen apart. It's like an intricate clock every little piece of this is very intricate and needs to go exactly where it goes. Because it's also while it's not in real time, it takes place over a very short specific period of time. It's a very self contained story. So if anything went on too long, it wouldn't have worked and half of half of its the battle you know two hours of battle is a lot a little over an hour probably just the right amount of time. But even if it was all bad oh one a worked I mean, we we we need that first hour and usually like to calm before the storm now even though I gave you shit in the beginning because I said this is not a heist movie. Even though I'm trying to do a heist movie if we're talking about structure right now heist movies follow this structure all the time. First half, we have the setup, we have the planning stages. And second half is the execution of said plan. And a lot of times in heist movies, that really does not work because the setup the planning stages are so fucking boring. And then we keep saying ourselves, can we get to the highest Can we just get to it I don't need all this setup. This is just too much. I want to just get to the good stuff where this movie says we're going to get to it but we're going to take our time and everything before that is just as satisfying as the explosion that comes later on. And I guess that also kind of leads me into my next point you were talking about the Zulus beating their or Michael Caine saying it sounds like a train when the Zulus were, I don't know maybe about a mile off and they were beat or maybe I don't know a couple 100 yards and they were beating on their shields with their spears like five minutes ago. Yeah, I know it was like five minutes ago but whatever. And that brings me to my third point I really liked the sound design which is like a small thing you know to have so high up there but now I got you that's such a it's such an interesting fascinating and intimidating idea having that just the beating on shields so far away that unknown sound that impending doom just slowly and slowly encroaching closer and closer. it you know, it was worked into the script, it was manufactured perfectly. That's not the only thing I like about it. For a film in the 1960s all the gunshots, they're very sharp. They're very explosive. It really just it gets you as soon as it happens. As soon as you see it. The dialogue is at a really good volume. The music comes in exactly. What am I trying to say about that? When we back up that was that was all stupid. Yeah, you're very stupid. Everything you say is Yeah, bla bla bla bla bla bla I'm an idiot. I'm yawning bla bla bla, bla bla. Whatever it Don't know, it's hard to pick out just a third thing, I saw that there was a number three. And I was like, I want to say the whole film, variance. It's an experience. I can't just pick like one element of it. The sound is just such a small element, but it's an experience going through it the first time and it's even the fourth time going through it. You're like, I don't want to pay attention to any one small thing because all these tiny little threads, they culminate into something very invigorating and entertaining. Yeah. So like, if I could have a real number three, it would just it would be the whole the whole film the whole experience, getting to experience it again for the fourth time, but my I guess my fake number three, just the Zulus booty beating their shields, whatever. Eonni you know, you know who would agree with you and that this whole film is the greatest. It's so great. It's amazing. Hugh Grant, this is Hugh Grant's favorite film. Oh, good for huge. I didn't know that. Oh, my God call back. It's a call back folks call back to Notting Hill got one of our lowest one of our lowest lifts. I don't understand. I don't understand that. It's probably the episode I've promoted the most yet is still I don't care. They don't care. And it has Hugh Grant, as Julia Roberts has should have honor. More listens. I don't get that on. I don't know. You. You fault. You listeners are very eclectic. I don't know what to say. But I'm proud of that Notting Hill episode. And yeah, that was a jab at you. Because as soon as I saw that fact, I'm like, wow, I gotta bring that up. And also going with callbacks to go off of what you were just saying. It was interesting how you bring up sound in how in the, when we talked about sound in LASIK Rouge. I'm like, just because there's an absence of sound doesn't make it great. And here's something where I think we both agree on the sound were like what we were just talking about the quote unquote train where we don't we do not see the Zulu. They're just being talked about. But we hear them and just having just hearing them is intimidating and nerve racking and just so effective, and it's just a sound. It's also funny that you bring up the idea that the gun sound effects because I actually thought the same exact thing because even though I really like 60s movies, they often have the cheesiest, corniest bullets, sound effects. Yeah, kind of tinny, you know, yeah, it doesn't sound real. It's goofy. And this is the first one I can think of that really did feel like they were actually firing rounds, it felt very realistic. Now, not everything about the battles are realistic, which we will get into. But I mean, we can just get into that right now. Because let me finish, let me finish. But the sound of the gun sound effects in particular, were really effective in this a little note. So I was listening to another podcast, and they were bemoaning the sound effects. And I'm like, Are you high? They're like, Oh, it's dated. sounds bad. I'm like, you're not paying attention. Because the sound effects are great. It's the other thing we're going to talk about later at that we're very dated and bad. But the sound effects a plus for at the time. The last thing I wanted to talk about my third point was kind of going along with what you were saying Yani and that you want to say the whole film. This is a small point that goes throughout the whole film, which is that all the little, there's so many little moments that just make up the misery we'll call back the tapestry of the piece. I was thinking of that when I said thread. Think of the tapestry. Yeah. Because there are so many, like, there are so many moments that most movies would just go on thought of. We have the soldiers preparing for war, they're loading their guns, they're putting the bayonets on, they're doing this, they're doing that, etc. But this movie does the extra effort so consistently to show that these are people and do little things like humanize their characters. Yeah, so there's like one soldier who accidentally drops a banner as they're putting the bayonets on. And the guy behind them is like, come on, buddy. Or there's another one who's chewing gum. I don't actually it might be the same guy chewing gum. And here's the one who's taught button was unbuttoned and then as he's he's button he's told the button it up by his commanding officer and then when he shot and his officer was shot to he asked him if he can unbuttoned his jacket again, and the officer goes to help him with it and like kills over and dies. Yeah, it's such a small thing. It takes like less than 30 seconds of screen time, but it adds so much. Yeah, and also all there's so many little characters, so many minor characters that I don't know the names for. But they have such distinctive little moments. Like when the two guys go out on the hill. It's the one who's the singer and the other guy. I don't remember his name, but he's Kind of like this big lurch kind of looking guy and the conversation they have, I can't remember what it's even about. Well, it's about the land, but it's about the soil. Yeah, how the soils to dry and not like the soil back just feels very pointed and it feels very humanizing like you were saying. And all all these characters have such little moments that really make them distinctive and memorable, and also relatable. Because the thing is, what I was joking about in the beginning is it's incredibly hard to take the British Army and make them the underdogs because let's be honest, British Army or the British Army that the most well trained, well equipped colonizers, at the time, sun didn't shine on there, the sun didn't set on their empire, so not really the underdogs. But by adding those little moments showing like these guys are not ready for this fucking battle. It's, it's really effective. It's really good. And these moments are so small, but I think more than anything else that we talked about, even though I love everything else we just talked about, this is what really makes the film special in my eyes. Yeah, I agree. There's such a limited number of men there, you know that there are more than you got to see. But I think they focused on something like around 10 or 11. Guys, essentially the 11 men who won the the what is it the King's Cross the Royal cross, something like the the British equivalent of the Medal of Honor boys, maybe Victorian cross, something like that? I don't remember. But 11 of the guys want it. And I think the film mostly focused on those 11 But yeah, just like a 11 people, two protagonists and then like 11, kind of tertiary, nine tertiary characters. It does so much. Yeah, it really it builds. It's like you are observing a community instead of a group of men led by two lead characters. Yeah. All right. I like that. You brought that up? Yeah, you're welcome because that's the we're done with the compliments we're going to the numerous fires which is the three things we didn't like one fire just one was that an allusion to passion Ivana the new numerous fire joke is never getting extinguished every time there's a fire in a movie Jani I am bringing that shout out numerous fire. Oh, numerous, numerous just like the the number of people on this podcast every time you use the word numerous. I'm going to bring that up. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring it up to annoy you. Anyways, number one, do you want to do your number one you want me to do my number one? I think it's the same number one because one of mine is also one of yours. So go ahead it's your you dislike more things about this I'm assuming Well, we basically have the same first two so I'll start with my number one which is so I did this as a little dialogue exchange. So Zulu warrior number one says how do I do a fake death Zulu warrior number two says I don't know just grab at your chest even though there's no open wound and do a Buster Keaton pratfall forward, and folks he said that because the the Zulu, the the Zulu extras, most of them had never seen a film before so they didn't really know what they were doing. When they got on set. So director went and had them go watch a bunch of Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, and Laurel and Hardy Harold. Oh, it was Harold Lloyd. It was your heroine. I think this is actually something I wanted Laurel and Hardy and Buster Keaton and Harold Lord. Wow. Harold Lloyd. Yeah. So basically had them watch silent film comedians, because a it's very simple to watch and be, I'm assuming because a lot of they don't have any dialogue. A lot of their stuff is visual and very active. So I'm sure that's why it was shown to them. But it's just very interesting that that's what they were shown to give them a context for movies. But also the fact that trivia note those three comedians, but leaves out Charlie Chaplin leads me to believe that they intentionally did not show these guys Charlie Chaplin, which I am very confused about because they probably didn't want them imitating his his gait, you know, no. But here's the thing the cane around but Jani, here's the thing you got to keep in mind of all the guys who listened correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't Charlie Chaplin, the only one who would be British aren't the other ones American for a British move on the floor. I can't remember if it's Laurel or Hardy, but one of the guys from Laurel and Hardy is British was British. Regardless, it's really interesting to me that they'd rather show Buster key I love Buster Keaton. But the fact that this British movie doesn't want to show one of the biggest British Stars of All Time this tribe. I don't know. Why do they have a vendetta against Charlie Chaplin. He's more closely identified with American filmmaking though like when I think No, I mean No. He is so he's like not so it's it's funny. So I get to your point we're getting we're getting away from the point. The point is that while the action The setup is great, and some of the fighting is pretty good whenever zoom Well, yeah, it's filmed well, but the Zulu warriors again who are actually from the Zulu tribe and had never seen a movie up until this point do the most over the top top deaths. They're not the best actors, silly, Goofy deaths are just grabbing at their chest like flailing about just jumping in their deaths in a way that goes shot and he does a full 360 spin before he falls. So the crown is considering the movie is trying to take itself very seriously and have very important messages about being anti war and about the horrors of war and death and everything. It's a little hard to take it seriously. When these guys are just dying like bond villains. It's goofy. Yeah, it takes you out of it. What you pay attention to it, particularly the gunshots are not terrible, but whenever they get to, like close combat with bayonets and swords, oh my god, it was awful. Yeah. Particularly the fact that you know, at this time they can't do people actually getting cut up or doing like legitimate sword combat. So it's just like, I just got whacked. And now I'm doing like grabbing my heart and just to like, flip to the ground, right not Jani pata Scotto viewing tip. Just pay attention to the Brits don't pay attention to that. Just watch. watch the red coats. That's why the coats are red. It's not because that was British soldier dress. It's to distract you from the very distracting Zulu deaths. Just pay attention to the men in red. Yeah, that's also one of mine. If I had to, it's not necessarily something I just like. And honestly it gives us film a lot of charm, especially when you know that these are actually not only just actual Zulu tribesmen, but descendants of a lot of the men who fought in this battle. It gives it a lot of charm. You know, it's just it's more proof of the fact that these were very much non actors. Yes, and it's it's Yeah, I don't really know what else to say about it. They appreciate it though. I will I agree it adds to the charm. It's not I you know, I almost call it campy. But this film is so not campy. This is like really the only campy element to it is this is this evolute depth. It's like suddenly became a Roger Corman movie. Everything else completely serious or smart or witty. And then this is just like the one aspect of this film. That's not but you can't It's not that I even dislike it. It's just it's it's an undeniable flaw. You can't not point it's so jarring. It comes out of nowhere. Because this tribe is like, they are the shit. They're so intimidating. And then Whoa. until they die. They're holding it all in for death. Yeah, then it just bursts out. They go out like champs next thing again, this is something that's on both wireless. I wrote the missionaries, especially Karen, Karen's not her name, but I'm using the Karen term Karen for white ladies. I didn't care for them at all. I thought Now that's not to say that way isn't a missionary or priests in which which term? Should I be using their missionaries? They're not priests. Okay, so the missionary i think is a well written for his opposition towards the soldiers and everything. And he's pretty well acted. I just found that character insanely annoying, particularly and how condescending he is. Well, actually, both of them are but particularly the head missionary towards both the Zulu tribe as well as the soldiers basically tells them all you're on the wrong side, go pray to God, stop fighting, which, you know, as a sentiment is correct is proper. I'm not gonna argue that but by in his execution, he's just so arrogant and stubborn and full of himself, and basically says, like, you're all idiots. And it's like, as I say this, I wouldn't disagree if I just heard this on the podcast and said, Oh, well, of course. But again, when you if you listen to the guy, he's such a jerk about it. And it's just annoying the hallway through. I mean, even more flies with sugar than with vinegar. I mean, even when in the very beginning when he is with Zulu tribe with his daughter, and they're talking about it. They're talking about the tribe. He basically talks down to them and talks down about them while still trying to be like, Oh, I'm trying to do the Lord's work. And I understand for the time I understand all that it just puts him in such a negative light for me, Jani. What do you think about him? Well, I agree. It's My issue is more that narratively, they leave halfway through the film. And a lot of their loose ends are kind of just left unresolved. They introduce a lot of themes into the film, not a lot of themes, but like a couple of Central like almost religious films to the theme that the a lot of the character, not the characters, but a lot of the soldiers identify with, especially at the time, but then were never touched on again throughout the runtime. So it's it narratively it's it's kind of a weird choice I respected it's not something you'd see a lot you know, two characters that you've been following for an hour suddenly just disappear they never come back. There's really no reference to them either. Psycho psycho okay. But they were really doing so there there was something they were doing with Margaret as that's the Karen Sean's talking about Margaret is character in the beginning there's this wedding ceremony that they're observing of the Zulu warriors to their wives. And you know that camera work is great they're just punches out on her expression shows how frightened she is how almost upset she is looking at what their customs at their wedding customs and more or less just viewing them as savage and considering herself as a as a European as well as a white woman to be so far above them. And then she gets to roar to drift and all the men are basically as savage as she thinks the Zulu tribesmen are being so she sees that the the savagery just kind of lies all around. It's it's not just in one particular group of people. It's in the orchestration of of war in general is when it is when that savagery just kind of comes out of us. And then, I mean, I see, we see a combination of that. Go ahead. I just want to clarify your point, because I know he didn't intend this to come out, though, like that. But like, when you're talking about Savage, you're not necessarily talking about the Zulu tribe. You're talking about the British when she visits the camp? Yes, yeah. She She goes back to the missionaries, because it's just like, the mission views is doula Savage, when in reality, that's just their culture. That's their traditions. And she's just looking down upon them. Yeah, sorry. Sorry to cut you off. Yeah, she gets back to the mission and the soldiers the injured soldiers are being very lewd with her one even tries to unbutton her dress, and she just all around her. She's seeing everything she thought she saw in the in the Zulu tribesmen and like I was saying, they disappear, and then that's never really touched on again. I mean, we kind of get the culmination of that, or the payoff in that where we see the British soldiers become a little not jaded, but how worn and exhausted they are after the the strenuousness of the battle, but she's not there. You know, the character who was directly attached to that theme, isn't there and there's just kind of this this near miss, you know, this this unstoppable sort of the trains almost going to hit but it didn't hit the horse. People are okay. It almost hit the horses, but it didn't. But if it had hit those horses, how cool and great would it have been, but it didn't how many all episode callbacks Can we make in one episode? We're getting to meta. Yeah, that was just it. I like I was saying I think it was fine for the most part that they left and they do their job narratively. I just feel like that could be one point that could benefit from from from some strengthening. Yeah, no, I agree. But it is interesting that you pointed out the cinematography, because we haven't really talked about the cinematography. And normally you'd like to show off to movies cinematography, when it's pretty great. Well, I thought about that while I was doing this, and but Shockley, this is shock refill. Yeah, I pointed out all the time. Yeah, it's I know, I do it too frequently. Lately, normally when it doesn't look good, and the one time that I would have agreed with you that this movie has great cinematography and don't do it, what's wrong with it's not even it's not even the visuals. It's the just the the implications of the movement. I mean, before you see the tribesmen, the kid, there's this long take a looking at all of the British soldiers in Rorke's Drift, and that finally lands on chard and then you get a very similar long take that sweeps across the mountain ridge as all the Zulu warriors arrive, showing them and their enormity, as a direct juxtaposition to what you just saw with the Brits. There's just so much intentionality. Yes. In the cinematic grammar here, it's phenomenal. Again, I didn't mention it, because I didn't want you to say, Oh, well, you mentioned Jada. You mentioned the cinematography all the time. That's not a good impression of you. But this is the one time I would have given it to you and you didn't do it. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. I'm not predictable. Yeah, you I'm not unlike a Zulu Zulu warrior. Sometimes I'm hiding under the brush. Sometimes I'm charging at you with a rifle. The only thing you're predictable and as that you're going to, you're going to come into a new episode. Really Shawn I don't know if we've done this before our decimals Okay, can I do a decimal? That's nice predictable aspect of you but we don't do that you just did it earlier in the day oh well that was the first time I've done it I have it what you think that's this is some sort of joke to me done 38 episodes and you've done it 38 fucking times I don't know go back prove it my Shawn provide an audio foot rub note right now every single time I said it, I doubt you'll find any anyways you think ah last time my last point. My last point is that there is not enough sunstroke blindness because unlike the forefathers in which is the pinnacle of a character just falling on his ass looking at the sun, stroke and go on the wind but of of durance you would think at least one of these British soldiers he served his coat just fall to the ground be like let me just look at this son, and then go like wander like I can't fight the Zulus. Like you think hook would be like, Guys, I'm sorry I got sunstroke. I can't fight the Zulus hook the coward who's not a coward in real life, but in the movie as a i, that's debatable. I don't know, there's no proof that he actually wasn't at that one battle. But I mean, I've listened to a couple things that said he was actually super duper brave, but I don't have enough to back me up with it. So I'm not gonna like 110% defend it. I will just say that it's been noted that that's one of the bigger changes. But anyways, my actual point now and the outline, Giannis sees that it says in reality, my final point is racism. I just said that. Now, I will be honest with you, folks, when I first put this down, it was a joke. Because in for feathers, we talked about this a lot. And this was my final point in for feathers. And and this movie, I thought it and I'm sure Jani will attest to it, and you'll hear it many times does a pretty fair job in portraying both the Zulu tribe as well as the British, like we've talked about the Zulu tribe was played by actual Zulu descendants, there was a Zulu consultant, a tribesmen who had the oral history from the past consulting on it. So a great great grandson of the king plays his great great grandfather or something like that, let me finish. And I can't remember if he's the king, or whoever the leader is of the Zulu tribe has gone on record many times and defended this movie. I mean, as recently as I want to say, 2018 or 2019, there was going to be a screening of this movie for British veterans, and then some group I can't remember who exactly but they essentially accused this film of being racist and saying, I don't think this movie should be promoted for its racist overtones, etc. You can look that up online. And then the Zulu leader came back and said, Hey, I'm Zulu. We actually helped make this movie. So step off, not step off. It's not racist. And like I said before, in like the the context of the battle itself, I think the movie is pretty fair, because it is not it portrays Zulu warriors, not as Savage, but as very competent, very skilled, very smart, very brave soldiers who know what they're doing organize very, very well. Yeah, yes. And they're very effective. And going with what I was saying earlier, basically, in movies, you have two sorts of antagonists you can do, you can either do what I was saying before the assault on precinct 13. And like this movie, where you have essentially the enemy who is a force of nature, who you know nothing about, but is really this impending sort of doom that is kind of like a horror movie, in a sense, and is very chilling and scary. That's what this movie does is very effective. I appreciate that. Because when it's done well, which is very rare. It's amazing. And this movie does a solid job at that. But problem with that is that it by doing that, and the second choice of villains is a villain or an antagonist. Sorry, I shouldn't use the word villain antagonists is more humanized, so we get to know more about them. So for example, we saw Cain, the Zulu King or saw more of the reasoning on their end, it could flesh out the Zulu side of it more, but it would also in turn kind of rob the effect that the movie's going for. So I wholeheartedly understand why they did not do that. All this is to say that this is very complicated this aspect of the movie, because having researched both sides of it to blatantly say the movie is racist is dumb. It's very dumb to say because yeah, to offer Why, why why would this movie be problematic? Especially when the Zulu tribe has signed off on it more or less, and they actually tried, they made it a point to be fair in their representation. And I know I'm droning on a bit, but there's a whole lot to go on. There's all So much to say about this. No, no, you're right. Because if that's if, if claims or causes claims of racism are something that actually presents prevents this film from being viewed, they need to be tackled, and they need to be dismissed. So what is not a racist film? But here's I think the history behind it. Can I sorry, there's just a lot I need to say. But yeah, I I apologize. I just. And the other reason why you don't want to just blanketly call things racist when say, Africans or black people are the antagonists is because invalidates things like, you know, when I invalidates truly racist movies that are problems that need to be addressed, because then it hampers and harms your own argument right now with this movie, I, I've gone back and forth on it, because it's complicated, because I want And yes, it does portray them very fairly, for the most part. At the same time, it decides to leave out a lot of context proceeding that by leaving out this context basically shows the Zulu tribe as a group that essentially decides to attack the British for seemingly no reason. And it's confusing, where in reality, what happened was, and Donnie, I don't know if you've done this research at all, but I said, you know, I've done the research, you go ahead, you're on a roll. Yeah. But essentially, the British said, Hey, like, there was an uneasy treaty between the Zulu and the British colonizers, they're like, we're gonna just live with each other deal with it. And then the British realize that in South Africa, there's a bunch of diamonds hiding in mines, and they're like, Oh, we got to get these diamonds. So the Zulu tribe, kind of let them take it for the most part, and Gandhi, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this while I'm talking about this, but essentially, they had a piece. But while the British were taking all these diamonds, they also decided, hey, we really want to actually straight up, colonize and get rid of the Zulu. So what they decided to do was set out this 30 day mandate and which was Zulu have 30 days to essentially disband of sorts to give up all their weapons give up their warrior status. And I don't know, I don't remember the specifics, but essentially acclimate into British society, it was a mandate that was basically impossible for them to uphold, but also would just totally destroy an up and their culture, because they were very much a warrior centric culture. So none of that is in the movie. And I'm not saying that it needs to 100% be there, but that it's also the British were marching to attack the Zulu tribes battle in which the British are massacred, they're like, oh, man, they were attacked, they were massacred. But what they leave out is, oh, well, they were massacred, trying to go and essentially, kill the Zulu tribe. And the Zulu were offensive, defensive, you know, so we don't have any of that context, which is pretty fucking important. And I understand why was left out, but I kind of wish it was in there. But it was at the time, I understand why was left out. So it's complicated. I mean, that's like, that makes your movie almost twice as long doesn't it? All that all that context, you know, so it's you don't need a scene, they literally just have a title card like they did in the beginning that says that I feel like there's a lot going on there that you can't sum up with a title card a lot. But even if you add like the one sentence that says the British were forcing the zoo out of their lands, and I feel like there's a way to do it, that just makes it a little more fair. And again, if we're talking about have to make some changes to the motivations of charred and Bromhead in that case, and then you have to make statements about you know, the lesson, like I said, about difference between personal on your sand white survival and like, yeah, following orders, things like that, you know, that? It would it would change it, it would make it kind of a different movie to make everything to align everything. But yeah, I know, like, I'm not trying to totally call out the movie because we know even if you go back to the Pink Panther episode, the return of the Pink Panther that's really problematic. This is more of what Jani would say about cadeaux of the time dated and also keep in mind, no Kato is timeless get out, keep in mind, they were actually filming in South Africa in which I had our apartheid and going with that research, crew members are basically separate on set, or at least the South African government was trying to enforce that and because a lot of the crew members particularly the two leaves were much more liberal they were constantly co mingling with the black crew members and that sounds like oh well da obvious but you got to keep in mind the context of South Africa and apartheid and how strict and stringent that was and it just like there there is clearly a sympathy and empathy going on there. So it's it's an even for the film to cast Zulu tribes men and to have that fairness to the tribe. For the most part, again, excluding what I just talked about, I think is important. And I think it was a step in the right direction for that time. So I will give it its credit where it's due anything you want to chime in chirpin No, this is all stuff I already knew. It's just it's, it's it's really heartening to see that you liked it enough to do all this research. Now. I have a third fake dislike as hokey was leaving the barracks while the whole building was on fire. He grabs his red jacket and it throws it on for really no reason. Other than the fact that he was told by his commanding officer to put it on. I told you the reason it's a callback, no, I know, it's a callback. I'm just saying like, logically, there was no point for him to have done that he should have just left the building without putting on the jacket. It makes no sense. It's automatic, narratively, I get it thematically. I know. I get it rationally, it's dumb. But it's not really dislike, I don't care final rating, you know, before against the final rating. I just wanted to make note, and how I relate to hook a lot. I thought to myself, you know, like in the heat of the battle and near the end of the movie, when there's just so many soldiers that are dying, or just severely injured. And the the medic is trying his best to patch up as many people as possible. But he's, there's only so much he can do. I was very tempted. I'm like if I was in this situation, and folks to give you context that we haven't talked about a lot, but if you're a longtime listener, you know, I have tennis elbow, my arms hurt a lot. I'm tempted to just go in there and be like, hey, like, What's your problem? Are you are you bleeding or you have an injury? I'm like, ah, I got tennis elbow my dude like my arms just kind of hurt. Anything you can do about that is like Bobby over there is gonna die in two minutes. You're coming over here because your arms hurt. And I thought there's gonna be a funny or a joke by Jani has given me nothing, nothing, not even like a skeevy rude, nasty comment to rating are decimals allowed? I wish they were I wish they were I but then again, I don't know what the numerical system for the Zulus is like, so we'll just never know, I guess. Okay. We're a system in this hypothetical world. What would it be if there was like a Zulu new numerical numerical system that we were keen to? What would it be? What would the direct translation I think of that be? Okay, I'm gonna do I'm gonna I'm gonna ignore everything you just said and just do a decimal because you can fuck off because I don't care like the British go to basically any other people in the world. That's not why they say I want to do what I'm gonna do. You can fuck off. I desperately went to Ireland. They went to Scotland. Okay, sure you're right went to Wales. They just they just colonize everybody. But anyways, I'm going to give this movie and 8.0 Hey, that's okay. Are you just not able to go above and eight with my, with my picks? I feel like you can't I knew you would like it. It's impossible not to like this. It's such a well, I don't know why. Because you knew I was gonna like it because because I wanted to watch it. I really wanted to watch it. I knew it was great. I just really wanted to watch it. I'm sorry. I failed. You doesn't really hate your past. I think it was, folks, you know, chime in. I think this was a pretty enjoyable listen. No, I know it's not that it's not the hook line and sinker of this podcast. We're supposed to be arguing and debating I mean, we're pretty much on the same page the entire fucking time. A fucking idiot. So what are we watching next week? Give me something I can hate. Shawn. Send me send me an hour and a half of you just looking at a camera. I'm sure I'll hate that for for too many reasons to mention in an hour and 20 minute podcast. Well, Jani. Like we mentioned earlier, I tried to do a heist thing. I tried to do heist movies. Now we are so close to the end of this 10 episode round that I'm saying to myself, I'm going to finish that off. I got my nine and 10 my 39 my 40 pick. So I'm not going to tell you my 40 pack because I haven't decided yet but my for my 39 pack is gonna be another highest my way and because you picked on Michael Caine movie that's gonna be a Michael Caine movie and it's not Gambit, which you might think Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Jani we both like dirty Ron's gowns. Can't be that can't be it. I'm not picking Dirty Rotten Scoundrels right now. That is a potential 10 but not the nine it is The Italian Job the original Italian Job not Mark Wahlberg shit show masterpiece Come on. I don't think you've ever seen a mark wahlberg we've liked name water wasn't bad name tag. Oh, okay. Well how do I watch this Where do I watch this done amazon prime All right, let's let's do it. meet back here in three weeks break. Go fuck yourself. I really have to go to the bathroom. In fact, like I'm doing my best to hold it in. Place yourself.