Healing Prayer: Rewiring the Brain for Freedom from Eating Disorders and Beyond with Kassandra Baker

Kassandra Baker

Amy Connell: Kassandra welcome. I'm glad you're here. 

Kassandra Baker: I mean, I'm honored to be here 

Amy Connell: today. Yeah, it's great. I'm so excited about this conversation. We were talking a little bit before we came on just about how broken so many of us feel in so many different areas. And we are this.

Christ centered health focus show and many of us feel broken in our relationship with food or maybe our exercise or body or all three. And so I'm thrilled that you're here. You and I've gotten to know each other a little bit in the last few months, and it's just a relationship that I'm so grateful for.

And I just cherish you. 

Kassandra Baker: Thank you. I'm excited that God brought us together. And so much of what your show does really resonates with authenticity and grace and, and my mission too. And so I'm excited that we can join together. 

Amy Connell: Yes, absolutely. Okay. One thing I have learned is oftentimes what we do comes from a point of our story.

And we have passion for what we do because of our story. So I would love it if you would share some about your story. 

Kassandra Baker: Yeah. My story is the whole reason that I'm doing what I am. So I started, I grew up in a loving Christian home from the outside, looking in, everything looked really great. In fact, you know, if you'd look at my life, you'd be like, I don't understand why I would look at my life and be like, I don't understand why I'm struggling so much.

Mom and dad who loved me, you know, I did well in school. school, had friends and everything like that. But underneath all of it, there was this perfect storm that was kind of gathering and along with depression and anxiety, I started struggling with binge eating disorder soon after I started dieting in middle school.

And then in my 20s, I developed a second eating disorder called orthorexia, which is an unhealthy obsession with healthy eating. And so to say my life was hard and miserable, just, just does not convey it. So I'd like to introduce you to who I call Ed and the gang. So Ed stands for the eating disorders, and the gang represent the people pleasing, the perfectionism, legalism, control.

And all together, they just created a life situation that was just so painful and devastating. So here's my visual. I'm laying on the ground and there's a hundred ton rock on top of me. Okay. So the hundred ton rock is Ed and the gang. So it's paralyzing. It's completely dark. There's no oxygen. I can't move.

And ultimately it just, every day was like, But I'm a type A who is driven. And so boy, did I really try hard to get myself out from underneath that rock. Unfortunately, that striving just ended up adding more and more onto the hundred ton rock. And so, but it was really frustrating because. I accepted Jesus at the age of four.

I didn't know a life with really have any memories without Jesus. So I would be so frustrated because I read in the Bible where it say it was for freedom that Christ has set you free. Yet my lived experience was not that at all. And at a very young age, though, I did make a commitment that no matter how hard it got, even if life never.

If I never change, I would, I would never give up on my faith and I would never just end it all. I would, even if that meant I died at 80, still fighting, I was going to, to never give up. And I really believe that that's one of the reasons why I'm at today. And and while I never gave up on my faith, there were times in that under knife, that rock, that it really felt like Jesus had abandoned me because I couldn't see him or I couldn't see anything.

And so, it was probably around 2011. I started a Bible study and for the first time in my life, it was different than any Bible study I'd ever done. It was kind of like eyeopening in the sense that it kind of showed me that why I was doing the things that I was doing. In fact, it's the Bible study that introduced me to healing prayer.

And then around that time, I also started counseling. And so. starting in 2011, the Lord really started doing the deep inner healing work of the deep traumas that I had in my life that, that started the healing kind of thing. And so it was also during that time that I developed the orthorexia.

And so of course, as the weight came off that had never come off before the praise, you know, went up. And of course that felt really good. And I believed that thin equals healthy. And so I was closer to the cultural idea, at least closer than I'd ever been before. And so here it was like finding healing and my body was smaller.

And I was thinking, This is kind of, you know, this is healing or whatever. Well then in July of 2014, I experienced the first of four traumatic brain injuries. So literally was knocked out and ended up in the trauma room. And in one moment just, My life drastically changed and so here I thought I had found freedom, but they sent me home and said, you know, come back in a week, we'll take the staples out of your head and then you can go on with life as normal, but life never went back to normal.

And so all of a sudden I couldn't do. The, the things that Ed wanted me to do or said I had to do and things I needed to do to stay in that smaller body. And so all of a sudden, the freedom that I thought, it was not freedom anymore because the angst and Ed got really loud. When, cause it was a matter of like, shall I do this or not do this?

It was like, I just couldn't physically. 

Amy Connell: Yeah. And I'm sure your brain couldn't handle. the tension and all of the stuff that goes along with 

Kassandra Baker: that. I mean, there were days I couldn't get out of bed, let alone do, you know, the behaviors with food and movement that he wanted me to do. That, that, that led to the smaller body.

It was at some point I came across intuitive eating and I read the book and I was like, there's something different. It was different than anything I'd ever like done before. And so of course my type eight personality is like all in, like, and then all of a sudden I realized I just like run off. the cliff without a parachute.

And it was just too much. And, you know, I was in a full blown eating disorder. And so at that time then I was like, Oh, maybe I need some help. And so I got the help of a dietitian. And so ultimately with the healing work, Jesus started in 2011, and then working with the dietitian. Those people came around, that 110 rock, and they had the tools and the knowledge, and along with the Holy Spirit, of course, to chip away.

And boy, that was a long and painful process. We're talking probably a good seven years of, of that work, where eventually I realized one day, I was like, I'm, I'm not living under and in the gang anymore. But it was a very long and hard journey anyway. So At that point when I got, got done with recovery, the Lord opened up doors for me to be able to to start authenticity and grace.

And so I've been coaching women since I graduated from college, but he said it was now time to move into do it in the area of food and body. And so I'm just so excited because now I get to be one of my clients. I get to be one of their team members that comes around them and helps chip away at, at their rock.

And so. I know what it's like to just really feel like there's never going to be any hope because it was a good 20 years for me that I lived under it in the game. 

Amy Connell: Wow. That's heavy. That's a long time. And I love that you have the full circle that now you're a part of a team to help lift that.

And I have to imagine it's something that still wants to kind of come on top. Yeah, it's not, it's never done. It's like, it's like decluttering the junk drawer. Like you still have to do the work. You still have to keep using your tools and your resources and all of that kind of stuff. 

Kassandra Baker: To make sure it doesn't build up again.

Yeah, for sure. But the exciting thing is like the tools that I used for Ed and the gang. Now I use for other things that the Lord now wants to continue working on in my life. And so I'm using those same tools in other areas along with, you know, maintaining, you know and so, and the Lord is so gracious too.

Like I always was like. You're God of the universe. You could just remove this all at one time. I could wake up tomorrow morning and I could be okay. But he really showed me and it was actually through healing prayer that I actually got this picture of being under the rock. The, as, as they chipped away and light started to come through because the rock was getting lighter.

The first thing I saw. Was that Jesus was like right in front of me and we were like face to face. And so he just was like, I was there the whole time. You couldn't see me. But I really, what I really believe that he was the reason why I didn't give up, why I kept fighting because there were many days where I just didn't want to, because it was so painful.

Amy Connell: Yeah, I'm sure. So you talk about healing prayer. I want to dig into that a little bit. My, me and my community can probably conjure up what we think that you mean by that, but sometimes there's a little difference. So tell us what healing prayer is, first of all. 

Kassandra Baker: Okay, so these definitions I'm going to use are from Terry Wardle.

It's the one who is in charge of healing care ministries and it's where I have the training to do the healing prayer. So healing prayer is an experiential encounter with Jesus, using our imaginations during prayer that engages our right brain, which allows us to then experience images, feelings and emotions, senses, and behaviors.

So Healing prayer then is an umbrella for two specific kinds of healing prayer. So the first is safe place prayer and safe place prayer. We ask the Holy spirit to take over their imagination so we can imagine the truths of the word of God that engages our senses and encodes a deeper truth in our lives.

It positions the broken or new positive emotion laden experiences that that develop new neural pathways. So let's also take a moment to talk about imagination versus imaginary. Okay, so imaginary is unicorn, right? Something that actually doesn't exist. Imagination, though, can take the truth of scripture and then make it play out in our minds like a movie would.

So a safe place is usually oftentimes people go to the same place it might be someplace you've been, Be someplace that you haven't been before. It's like, it can be like learning a new language. So some people can pick it up a little faster than other people. So practice and repetition are important when it comes to that.

So, but safe place prayer is just essentially developing the lived experience of being safe with Jesus. And then it's the foundation for what we call formational prayer. And formational prayer is defined as a ministry of the Holy Spirit, moving through a Christian caregiver, bringing the holy, the healing presence of Jesus Christ into the place of pain and brokenness within a wounded person So essentially we need safety in order to be able to heal. And so safe place prayer just establishes that safe place with Jesus. And then once that has been established, then we can use formational prayer. And we, Every time we do formational prayer, we start with safe place prayer, and then go into informational prayer where then we can work on laments or wounds or forgiving people, but essentially engaging again, the imagination, it doesn't ever change what happened, but essentially it allows the Holy Spirit to come in and say what he has to say, or allow us to maybe hear what, or we're kind of getting an impression of where Jesus was kind of in it.

Like, you know, for me now when I look back and just know that he was there with me the whole time, now when I'm going through a hard time, I actually go back and I can remember the picture. He was with me in the worst 20 years of my life. So he will be with me here too. And again, it's a lived experience and not just , a concept.

Amy Connell: I have to imagine for some people that feels maybe a little woo woo, right? Like inviting the Holy Spirit in. Okay. Now we're going to use the, our imagination. Like that might feel a little strange, but I assume if this is a practice, there's some biblical support for that.

Kassandra Baker: Yeah. I grew up from a conservative background, so I definitely like had some concerns, you know, when I first kind of heard about it, but the more and more I've experienced it as well as like really dove into the scripture, there is support. So it's prayer. So the Bible has At least 650 prayers or so in the Bible.

So we know that prayer is firmly supported by the word of God. Okay. And then we are also know that the Bible is very clear that we are called to have a personal, an intimate relationship with Jesus. John 15, five says, I'm the vine, you are the branches. And if you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit.

Apart from me, you can do nothing. And scripture shows us that Jesus reached out, touched, embraced those around him. So March 10, 16 says, and he took them up. In his arms and put his hand upon them and bless them. So prior to learning and practicing healing prayer, I would have said, yes, Jesus loves me, but if you would ask me, what does it feel like to be loved by Jesus, I wouldn't have been able to tell you because it was all a concept.

I believed it, but I didn't have a lived experience of it. And maybe like 

Amy Connell: you knew it, but didn't 

Kassandra Baker: feel it. I didn't feel it. That's right. And so that is, ends up being what a lot of people experience oftentimes is like, well, yes, Jesus loves me, but I 

Amy Connell: know for the Bible tells me so, and then how 

Kassandra Baker: do you feel that?

Like, how do you know that? Like on a lived embodied experience and not just like to the point where like it changes your life. Cause just knowing about the gospel won't save us. Intellectually there, you know, people can know the gospel, but it doesn't actually change them. It's when we actually believe it and live in the, the, the amazing truth of it, that it actually transforms us.

And so the more and more I dive into the Bible and see, well, one, we have imaginations and we have five senses. Okay. So these are things that all humans have. And so in general, and. So they're a gift from the Lord. And so essentially we want to be able to use them. And scripture talks about engaging the senses.

So our site Psalm 23, two, he makes me lie down in green pasture. He leads me beside quiet waters taste first Peter two, two through three, like newborn babies crave pure spiritual milk so that by it, you may grow up in your salvation. Now that you have tasted. That the Lord is good and there's touch there's hearing imagination Matthew 13 44 the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure buried in a field and a merchant in search of fine pearls So when jesus talks he talks in stories which require us to engage our imagination 

Amy Connell: Oh, that's a good point.

Yeah 

Kassandra Baker: right, and so Essentially as we are able to engage the imagination, we can engage the senses and we experience life through our senses. 

Amy Connell: Okay. There are so many different ways of praying, right? I mean, praying the scriptures just sitting down and talking to God. There's writing, like I've been writing my prayers a little bit more recently.

There's, I mean, there's just a different ways that we can communicate with God. I guess the question is like, why is it important as a spiritual exercise? But I think another complimentary question to that is how do we incorporate that in? Like, should it always be that way? Should it like, See, this is where my personal comes in.

Tell me what to do.

And, and I'll do it. But talk to us some about that. Like how, how does that all work into our prayer life? 

Kassandra Baker: Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to start with why it is important because this is the brain science. Okay, so this is how we love brain science over here. Let's talk brain science first. Okay. So here we need to talk about the difference between a concept and a lived experience.

 Psychiatrist Dan Siegel says concepts alone don't rewire the brain. We need experiences to. , so again, just knowing the concept of the gospel doesn't change my brain, doesn't change me. It's experience. Experiencing the gospel. And so again, going back to, we experience life through our senses.

 For example, if I say that negative 50 degree weather is really cold, we all can intellectually know that negative 50 degree weather is cold, but probably only the person who's actually been in negative 50 degree weather, their body's going to have an actual response to that, right? Because they're going to actually have a lived feeling of how cold that actually is.

 This is where a lot of people have a concept of Jesus's love and the gospel but don't have a lived experience of it to the point where it's so true and real that it changes the way that I choose to live my life today. Here's my one takeaway. If you hear only one thing from me today, this is what I want you to hear.

Healing prayer is a spiritual discipline that allows us to be able to have a lived experience of Jesus and the gospel and to not just know it about it intellectually. And when we have a lived experience of the radicalness of the truth of the gospel that transforms us and that changes us. Healing prayer allows for that engaging the brain and the senses to create these lived experiences.

Amy Connell: You know, the, the lived experiences is really dinging a bunch of light bulbs in me. I mean, I'm thinking about people who have gone through really hard times and, you know, I don't know that they've necessarily gone through the healing prayer, but they've gone through hard times focused on Jesus. And.

whatever the outcome is, you can see it and you can hear it in them. That there's no way that they can have that peace or the hope or, or the healing or whatever it is, had it not been for for Jesus and for their relationship with them. And it is a lot different than just, Knowing the knowing, and what I say is like, you know, sometimes you get those Bible study answers and then sometimes you get the real answers.

Kassandra Baker: Here's practically how it played out in my life when I met Jesus informational prayer and he met me in my deepest times and I have memories of just simply just like him holding me, even just thinking about that moment. It was some of the most powerful times in my life. Just thinking about that moment.

I can feel a physical reaction in my body because I felt so loved. Now it's not to the same extent at that moment, but the memory of it is still so strong. And so when it came time to do the work of the eating disorder recovery, I could. Eat what my dietitian wanted me to or not do movement. Because what, how he loved me and how it felt to be loved by him was more true and was more real and was more important than what Ed or other people were saying about my body.

And so I could let go of the body beauty idol because Jesus and what he did for me and how much he loved me. And then just different experiences of like experiencing, imagining Jesus up on the cross. And when he was up there, he was thinking. I really don't want to be here. This is really painful. My daughter, Kassandra, I love her so much.

I'm going to stay because having her with me for eternity is worth all this pain and suffering. And so I'm going to stay. 

Amy Connell: It's so powerful. 

Kassandra Baker: I can like literally feel the goosebumps, you know, because I can hear your voice changing in 

Amy Connell: it. Yeah. 

Kassandra Baker: Yeah. And so it might still hurt when I have people judge me because recovery meant weight gain thinner was not healthier for me because it required an eating disorder, but I can let that go because someone literally died in order to save me.

And if essentially, if I continue to do the eating disorder behavior, I'm saying that what he did wasn't enough. I needed to save myself by making my body a certain size.

Amy Connell: I love all that you're saying. This is so good. Okay. I think you've convinced us. Where do we go from here? And what do we need to know to try healing prayer? 

Kassandra Baker: Okay, so this is an exercise that you can do on your own. It can be triggering because essentially, like, we start with like some deep breathing, essentially engaging the parasympathetic system.

Breathing can be a trigger for people who have certain traumas, right? I usually recommend that if you're going to try it, that you try it with someone who has some basic training and can, cause this is something that I do with clients, essentially, I'll lead them through. Okay. But once you've practice safe place, prayer, and kind of have a lived experience of it and, and do feel safe then you can.

End up going ahead and doing it on your own. Formational prayer is something that you typically don't do on your own. And you always need to have someone who is trained to be able to do it. Cause formational prayers, like the equivalent to emotional open heart surgery, and you wouldn't just want anyone doing that.

Right. And the other thing that is important to know the ministry where I have my training for this, they really don't recommend this for. For children under 18, because they're not quite sure how this affects the developing mind. Okay. It really is a practice of you know, like I'll have clients that'll start out, like, it'll be a little awkward kind of with Jesus in the first place, but then once they kind of have been there and it's familiar and they recognize like he is safe, then, then they can relax.

And then. There becomes a comfort. And we again, going back to safety is so important for healing. Andy Colber has this quote and when you have numerous experiences of emotional, physical and spiritual safety, your body will begin to sense that it can change its posture towards itself. Your pain, your people, and your God.

And so essentially creating safety though if we don't have a lived experience of safety, either externally or internally, takes time. So let's go back to brain science here for a second. On average, our brain rewires at 2 millimeters per day. Okay, so a nickel the depth of a nickel is 1. 95 millimeters.

Okay, so we want, yeah, I wanted all this to happen overnight. All right. But for a, a neuron to like blaze new trails. And I like to think of new neural pathways as like hiking trails. Blazing new . I do too. Okay. So two millimeters a day, right? , like we're, we're going, we're gonna go way slower than what we would like to be able to go.

And then it's doing it thousands of time over and over and over again. I walked those old hiking trails of Ed and the gang for so many years. Right. And I wouldn't say that I don't ever like kind of have an impulse to kind of like want to run back to those kinds of trails kind of thing.

But if I have that impulse now, I don't actually want to go down the trail. It just is an indicator. Something's going on that I'm reverting to old habits kind of thing. So now it can kind of help me. But now as I work on changing things, I think. Two millimeters. What's the two millimeters I need to do today?

And so versus like, I'm walking down a new trail. No, we're blazing a new trail. And when you're blazing a new trail, there is no trail, right? So like, it's slow. It's scary. It's foreign because you've never actually been there before. Safe place prayer and healing prayer is similar to this as well.

But again, over time, it, It's a form of practice of prayer that allows for an experiential level. And then that over time does rewire the brain and help clear those new pathways. 

Amy Connell: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hearing you say, like, you kind of need to have someone walk you through this to do it with someone, do it with a guide, someone like you.

I mean, this isn't something, I mean, like, what if we were just wanting to play around with this? on our own. 

Kassandra Baker: Okay, so there is a video that Terry Wardle does teach, so I'll send you that link so you can put it in the show notes. So if someone wants to like hear it again from someone else, kind of like how it is, and he does technically lead Safe Place Prayer, so you could actually go through Safe Place Prayer, but just, just to be aware, like if you're doing this by yourself and never done it before, it could be, It could trigger a, a dysregulating response potentially in your body or emotions kind of thing.

So maybe just being aware of like having someone who is safe that you could connect with after or whatever. But yeah, I would recommend doing it with someone who has some training. Because essentially, and that's why I like to start doing it with clients is because if they do get dysregulated part, that is part of my job as a coach is to help co regulate.

And so I can help in that. And then they're not alone. And that helps bring back them back to their window of tolerance a little bit faster. 

Amy Connell: That's good to know. 

And Kassandra, you have been super generous and offered some complimentary breaking free strategy sessions to do this with five of my listeners. So I guess what we'll do is just have them reach out and the first five people who reach out to you and say that they heard you on greased health, those will be the first five.

That'll work. Okay. Awesome. Sounds good. And you know, the other thing too, I just want to circle back to, cause as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, I also think about neural pathways in terms of like hiking trails. Cause I love, Oh, I love hiking so much and I don't get to do it very often here in Houston.

But I was also thinking about like, when we are in that sympathetic fight or flight, space, what are we going to do? We're going to go to the thing that's the easiest, and that's going to be those big ed trails. Those are going to be the trails that have already been done that. And so, you know, just kind of keeping in check of like, what's going on, how are we feeling?

Are we stressed out? Is something bugging us? Are we amped up? And before deciding which path we're going to go down, because the well grooved ones. The ones that have already been there are a lot easier, but not necessarily the right one for us. 

Kassandra Baker: Yeah. And in fact, I, you know, just start out with encouraging for myself and clients, like just awareness.

Oh, I'm on one of those old hike or, or I'm on a hiking trail that I really don't want to keep going on this hiking trail. And so just starting out with the awareness of I'm on here and then it's like, and you know, the next time you might be like, Oh, well, what could I maybe do that might be a little different?

You know, and then the next two times you keep going down that old hiking trail. And then the fourth time you're like, no, I really don't want to do this. And then you, you try the new thing again. And again, it's just so slow. And so if you've, I like to kind of have people remember, like, if you've ever learned a new language, if you, okay, I'm going to start tomorrow and I'm going to learn a new language.

You don't know how to do it. You don't know how to talk. You're going to be bad. If you want to be good at actually speaking a new language, you're going to have to practice and actually not be very good at it. And so I, when we can take that to these new practices, that just provided so much grace for me because I was like my, in my black and white thinking was like, Either I have to be walking down either, you know, I'm walking down this edge trail, which I know I don't, or I have to be walking down the perfection trail, which of course I never am going to actually do.

And so when I like learned about brain science, that it's actually two millimeters, that I can work with how God created my body. Like realistically, he, could heal us, you know, and I could have, you know, had that new pathway kind of things, but no, typically speaking, I'm going to mess up a lot in the practice of this in order to become good.

And that is what I call swimming in the gray, doing it imperfectly is where the change can then happen because perfection ultimately just overwhelms and paralyzes us. 

Amy Connell: Okay. This is awesome. Thank you. So I will have your email in the show notes. And again, Move quickly, you guys. So you're one of the first five.

If you want a breaking free strategy session with Kassandra I have a few questions. I like to ask all of my guests. The first is I love learning about people's tattoos because I have found when they have tattoos, they often have a meaning behind it. So I was wondering if you have one, if you would mind sharing what it is and the meaning behind it.

And if you don't, if you had to get one. What would it be and where would it go? 

Kassandra Baker: I do not have a tattoo. This is an interesting question, but if I were to get one, it probably would be a turtle because during my eating disorder recovery, my mom gave me this little turtle to put on my desk. And she says, it's not about how fast you get through this.

It's just that you don't give up and you keep going. And so now I have big turtles and little turtles kind of all over the place to just remind me, like, as I. continue to do the work of my own life, because I haven't arrived, I'm still doing the same work, just in different areas now, you know, right? Yeah.

Okay, slow and steady. Just don't give up. And that has really helped me to be where I'm at today. 

Amy Connell: That's so sweet. What a what a kind gift. Speaking of visualization and using imagination. I love that. Okay tell people real quickly how they can connect with you. 

Kassandra Baker: Okay my website is KassandraBaker. com and I spoke Kassandra with a K.

And I'm actually not on social media. So the website is the best way. You can email me or my phone number is on there as well. You can reach out through text. 

Amy Connell: That's one of the things that I'm, really like about you is that you're not on socials because I'm trying to figure out what to do about all of that.

Okay. Do you have a meaningful Bible verse that you would like to share? 

Kassandra Baker: The, the Mark verse where he talks about like Jesus, Jesus taking the child, putting him on his lap. Touching him and interacting with him. Jesus did that in his real life with children and I am God's child. So that means I get to also sit on Jesus's lap and be loved and blessed and safe with them too.

Amy Connell: And that changed me. That's so sweet and tender. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Kassandra, what is the one simple thing we've covered a lot, but what is the one simple thing that you would like us to remember about today's conversation? 

Kassandra Baker: Yes. So healing prayer is a spiritual discipline discipline that allows us to be able to have a lived experience of the love of Jesus and the truth of the gospel versus just knowing it in our heads.

Amy Connell: Awesome. Okay. That is all for today. Go out there and have a graced day.