BONUS: How to Support a Friend with Cancer

Specifically with respect to a major health condition. You can put together a gift bag or a basket that has things like a small notebook and a pen, because your friend is going to be taking notes of their doctor's appointment. They need to write down questions to ask their doctor and not forget. They need to write down what time they took their medication, what their pain levels are. So a small notebook and a pen for someone who's going through chemotherapy. Consider dry mouth lozenges, because they will be a lifesaver. Consider healthy snacks so that when they're in the car driving to doctor's appointments and maybe they may be at a doctor's appointment and the doctor says I have to send you over to the hospital for a PET scan they need to have something in the car so that they can get something to eat and keep their energy at. This is going to sound funny, but consider a scarf, gloves, leg warmers and fuzzy socks, because hospitals and chemotherapy rooms are freezing. They are so cold and while most of them have these warm blankets, can I just tell you the warmth from those blankets lasts all of 93 seconds.

Hey there, I'm Amy Connell. Welcome to Grace Health, the podcast for women who want simple and grace-filled ways to take care of themselves. I'm a certified personal trainer and nutrition coach who wants you to know your eating, movement and body Don't have to be perfect, you just need to be able to do what you're called to do. We are coming in today with a special bonus episode. If you are a long-time listener, you may have met my guest today, dr Michelle Bankson. Dr Michelle has joined us speaking about anxiety, caring for our teens, mental health, meditation and one of her many books called. Today is Going to Be a Good Day, and I will put all of those in the show notes. Today is a good and special day because Dr Michelle is here sharing her wisdom and experience of being a cancer caretaker as well as a cancer patient. She is here to help us navigate those times. We want to help and be supportive, but we're just not sure what to do. Dr Michelle provides so many useful, tangible, specific ways and I appreciate those so much that we can help a friend or a loved one going through any kind of diagnosis not just cancer and then also just very gently guides us away from the things that are meant to be helpful but aren't necessarily. I am pulling this in as a bonus episode here in October because, as you are aware, october is breast cancer awareness month, so there's a little bit more focus on cancer right now and, ps, if you have not gotten a mammogram lately, go do that. But since we are having more discussions about cancer this month, I thought this would be a good time to come in and have a conversation about how to care for others who are doing that and also care for the caretakers. If you haven't met Dr Michelle, let me tell you a bit about her. She is a Hope concierge, whether as a board certified clinical neuropsychologist, host of the award-winning podcast your Hope Filled Perspective, or the author of several award-winning books, including Hope Prevails and Breaking Anxiety's Grip, her passion is to share hope and encouragement with others. Her newest release is the Hem of His Garment reaching out to God when pain overwhelms. She loves all things teal spending time with friends and family, taking long walks or sitting by quiet shores and it's a bonus when any of those are accompanied by sea salt caramel chocolate, of course. You know that I have to love that part. You can find her and her Hope filled resources at DrMichelleBcom. Let's bring on Dr Michelle. Welcome, dr Michelle.

Thanks, amy. I always look forward to our times together, either on your podcast or mine. It's just always an enriching conversation.

Aren't they fun? We need more time together in person and, by the way, welcome back to Texas, thank you.

You're home, so you and I definitely need to plan some time together in real life.

Absolutely, absolutely. You've had a couple different residences since I have met you, but I guess that was close to five years ago, so you know that's what happens. Well, I love the laughter and the smiles that we always have and I always enjoy our time, but we're talking about something that is a little bit deeper today. That I know is really come, that has come out of your journey of pain and suffering, and one of the things that I always admire about you, dr Michelle, is your ability to point to Jesus and have hope through it and point others to it, even in the midst of your pain. But I was wondering if we could start with you sharing some of your cancer journey with us.

I would have to tell you that my cancer journey actually started with my husband's diagnosed with cancer. He was diagnosed 22 years ago with a very rare form of abdominal cancer and when we sat in front of that oncologist, the oncologist said Mr Banks and I'm so sorry, you're too young for this, but you need to go home and get your affairs in order. You have less than two years to live, and that was 22 years ago. So let's just encourage your listeners to know that my husband is still with us, but he's gone through two other types of cancer since then and in the midst of his three bouts with cancer, I lost my mother to lung cancer. And then, the week that breaking anxiety script was released, we were on our way to an oncology appointment for my husband when I received a call from my doctor and I answered the phone, thinking this is odd. But answered the phone and they said is this Dr Banks? And I said yes and they said I'm so sorry to tell you this, but you have cancer and we need to schedule you for surgery right away. And we were on our way to my husband's appointment and I thought wait what? No, no, like they must have the wrong person, I'm healthy, I feel good, Like no. And she said, Dr Banks, are you there? I said yes, yes, I'm sorry, you just kind of surprised me with this news. She said, well, we need to schedule surgery right away. Can we do that now? And I said, um, no, I'm on my way to my husband's oncology appointment. I'm going to have to call you back when I can look at a calendar and talk on the phone at the same time. And I underwent treatment and then had a recurrence in January and started treatment again. And so this has been a journey, looking at it through the lens of patient, through the lens of being a caregiver to my husband and my mother. And, by the way, my first full time position after finishing all my training was as the chief neuropsychologist for a pediatric hematology oncology ward at the hospital. So I evaluated and treated children who were diagnosed with cancer. So there's been a thread of cancer through my life for the last 22 years.

So I don't mean to make light of this, but I mean, do you ever just, are you ever just like God, I, you have given me too much cancer in my life. I mean like there is so much, I mean even gosh. I didn't know that part about your first job.

Well, and then in 2019, we lost 19 friends and family to cancer. So, yes, um, yeah, I have prayed and thought Lord, first of all, why such an evil presence in the world? You know, and I know, that God doesn't bring that on us. We live in a fallen world. But to lose 19 people in one year and I think what made that especially difficult is after both my husband and I were diagnosed, we decided we didn't want anybody we knew to walk through this alone and we wanted to be a voice of encouragement. So we kind of took a lot of these people in to encourage them. So perhaps it wouldn't have been such a difficult year, but, on the other hand, I wouldn't have traded that for anything to know that we had an opportunity to give back to people in a way that we would have wanted people to give to us.

Yeah, I mean there's some time. I have a hard time coming up with words on the spot for that and I don't please correct or clarify me if I'm wrong, but I feel, like you said, god does not cause any of this, but I wonder if he knew that you were, you and your husband. Both were the right people to help lock arms with other people and help them navigate this, because you are such a beacon of hope and light and encouragement throughout the most difficult times.

Yeah, I for sure believe that God doesn't cause it, but I do think he allows it and he gives us the opportunity to partner with him in it if we're willing. And for my husband and I, part of what we've always trained our boys to do and I was just talking to my husband about that before we got on this is that we've trained our boys to be very intentional, not only in their faith, but intentional in their relationships, and to bring other people in the fold in their faith. So I, you know, I'm hoping that this is a legacy that is moving down through our own kids.

Well, I'm sure it is. I mean, there's no way that they could have been ingrained in that for so long and not take what they have learned and taken the guidance, that and the wisdom that you guys have imparted on them. So yeah, that's really incredible. So you have I don't even know how many books you have. I should know this, but you have a lot of books.

And one just came out. The sixth one has just been edited.

Yes, oh gosh, oh gosh. And I want to talk about this last one here when we're done the hem of his garment. So this is definitely one I want to talk about, because it probably anyway there's some threads. But I reached out to you when you released a blog post about talking with people, about you have cancer and how to support others, and I thought this is a conversation we need to have on the Grace Health podcast, because over here we are all about health and taking care of ourselves for our purpose to support our calling and, at the same time, having grace and situations and we have a very smart and tender and thoughtful community, and so I wanted to kind of take this blog post and let's talk about that. So what I want to do is pull out some of the points of the blog post and I will put the full post in the show notes for people to go read. But I want to just say the, the bullet point and then let you expand on that. Does that sound all right for you? Perfect, okay, all right. So the first one you said is keep your questions to a minimum.

When we find out that someone is going through a difficult time and our conversation today is just as applicable for someone who's diagnosed with heart disease or who is in the hospital because they're having an amputation, any kind of major health event or major life crisis. We think we can be more supportive when we know more details, and I get that, and I've had a lot of people asked for specifics about my own situation, under the idea that I could pray more specifically if I knew the details. But what most people don't realize is that once word gets out about a diagnosis, they are not the only one asking the questions. The person who's been diagnosed is getting questions from everybody who knows and loves them, and it can be exhausting answering everybody's questions and one question usually leads to five or 10 more questions. And I can tell you from my own personal experience sometimes, when I got those questions and I hadn't thought to ask my medical personnel those questions, what it did was make me feel stupid, like, oh my gosh, I don't have an answer for you because I didn't think to ask, because I was so overwhelmed with getting this initial information that now I feel guilt and shame and regret because I didn't think to ask that question, and it's not that it's wrong to ask, especially when your heart is because you want to support, but what I want you to realize is you're not the only one asking and coming back to a person that you love with a comment like I am here to listen to whatever you want to share, but I also want to respect your time and your energy and your personal boundaries. So know that I'm here to listen, but I don't want to inundate you with questions and what that does is it opens the door of the other person wants to share. They've got an open doorway to share without the burden of feeling like they have to.

That's great guidance. Yes, I love that. And just establishing that, like I am here to support and I'm intentionally not asking too many questions because I don't want to overwhelm you or, you know, suck out your time or anything like that so I love that one. What about the one that you said offer to pray for and with your friend who has cancer?

I really appreciate this suggestion because there have been many times when friends and social media followers have told me that they're praying or have sent me a written prayer, and God just always seems to know when we need to be undergirded with the strength of friends along the way. Because usually when I get those texts or I get those messages through my DMs, it was when I needed it the most and it's nice to know people are praying. It's even nicer to listen to an audio text or to read a prayer, because I can hold on to that and pull it out again. And when I'm at a loss for words because that happens when we are so inundated with new information and we're not feeling well it's really easy to get to the place where our prayers are reduced to a simple Jesus help and not that that's not effective. It is effective just calling on the name of Jesus. But sometimes, as the person going through the situation, we're at a loss for words. We feel like we prayed it all and it gives us strength when we know other people are praying.

That's a great point, one of the things that I will try to do. I wish I did it a little bit more often, but I will just write then and there I will write out a prayer and if I'm totally honest look, let's be honest, that takes time, it takes thoughtfulness, it takes choosing the right words, but I feel for me like that's the way that I would like to support a friend and how I would like to have one support as well, like actually sending a prayer, and it's normally over text.

And I know for myself sometimes in the past I have told people I would pray and then the day got busy and I forgot. And I do not want to get to heaven and have the Lord say you told them, why didn't you so, doing exactly what you've said. I'm going to do it right now. I'm going to pray right now. In fact, I'm even going to write it out for you or I'm going to voice text it to you. You know, we've got these great apps. We've got Marco Polo and Voxer, and you know the voice app on our phones. There's no reason we couldn't even just speak it out. And then we've done what we promised we would do.

Yes, I think and I will say that I did not come up with that idea that came from a pastor when I was growing up and it was like, oh, can you pray for me? And he was like, yes, we will write now, and he would just drop everything and pray. And I found that to be so powerful and kind and focused on the person, right then and there. I loved that. Now, speaking of that, what about the one that you said don't just throw scripture at them, because that would be. You know, I can see how that happens. We go to, we don't know what to say. We do a little search and we find a scripture and we, you know, copy and paste that into a text.

We live in such a pain averse society and that, I think, even includes us Christ followers, and because of that, I think most people's intention is really good. So let's, let's just start with that baseline. But sometimes, when you're the pain sufferer, having someone throw, god works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to its purpose. I know that, but in my pain and suffering that tells me you can't relate because you think that scripture verse, that Bible verse, bandaid, is going to take my pain away. And I think that's what happens sometimes is we want to have the right thing to say and we want to do something to take their pain away, but we don't know what that is, so we fill it in with a Bible verse. Now there have been times when people have shared verses with me and they've been just the right verse I needed to hear, but that usually came in the form of a texture, a card that said, as I was reading this morning, this verse made me think of you, but it wasn't meant to take my pain away and it wasn't meant to fill a void. I could tell the difference between the heart behind the message.

That makes sense. What are your thoughts on this? This just came to me that you know we can't and we can't take the pain away, but we can fill our friend with our presence and our love.

I think that is so consistent with the story that we read in the book of Job. Job went through physical, emotional, relational, financial and spiritual pain, and his friends came and sat with him. They were present in his pain for seven days saying nothing, and then they got in trouble, because then they decided after that seventh day well, job, this is why you're going through this, this is what you need to do, this is what caused it. And then they caused what I call secondary pain on Job, where their words conveyed why Job was at fault and all it did was produce guilt, shame and regret. And so there is definitely a place to be present in someone's pain and not to be so concerned about having the answer they need. God's going to provide that answer, and if God spurs you on to share some information, do. But I would err on the side of just be present, because that's what they will remember, that's what they need In our pain and suffering. We want to know we aren't alone, we're still loved and we're cared for.

Yes, that's such a good point, and the other thing that comes to mind as you're telling that story about Job and his friends is how we can do something so helpful and also hurtful, and to be mindful of our words or messages that we may be giving our friends or loved ones.

And for the person who is the one suffering. We have to remember other people aren't going to understand their exact situation. Even having gone through cancer with multiple people, my situation is not the same as theirs. I have a greater appreciation for the process, but it doesn't even mean that their body is going to respond to the same treatment. And so it's incumbent upon us, who are going through the difficulty, to extend grace and recognize that most people are responding with the right heart attitude. They just don't know what's going to be helpful. So that's why I'm so thankful that we're doing this episode to try to help people understand what helps and what potentially hurts. But even for the person who's suffering, we have to extend a lot of grace to the people around us.

Yes, that's a great point. What about your point of asking permission before giving advice and suggestions? And I'm holding back a smile here because I am positive, I am guilty of this, and not necessarily in cancer, but in other ways. I'm like, oh well, what about? Have you thought, have you considered? Have you tried? I'm like, oh, and as words are coming out of my mouth, I'm like shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up.

I think we've all done that, Amy, because we want to help. But here's the thing is the person who's going through cancer or some other major crisis in their life, they can be so weary of receiving unwanted and unsolicited advice. And even as a neuropsychologist, there are times I have to bite my tongue and first ask are you open to some input? Are you in a position where you want to hear some advice? And if not, it's totally okay, grace in advance. But the problem is is when we give unsolicited advice, it can end up backfiring because it can leave the recipient feeling like we think you don't know enough or we think you're not smart enough to ask the right questions. Or we've heard of our friends, neighbors, aunts, perfect pillar potion that helped them or didn't. And the worst thing you can do is please, please, please, do not tell stories of people who had the same diagnosis, who did not fare well. That is not helpful, it is not encouraging, and we want to keep people focused on the positive.

Because and obviously you know this so much more than I do but the research is fascinating about the state of our mind and our mindset as we go through and as we struggle through being sick and cancer and having these, that it, the mind, has such an impact on our physical outcome. So why would we discourage people by saying my aunt had that she passed away in two months?

What Right? Well, it has happened so many times to my husband and I that after we had gone through cancer three times with him, I really prayed about it. When I was given a diagnosis and I felt like the Lord said you don't have to share all those details, because if I don't share the type of cancer or the exact type of treatment, you can't tell me about the person who died from that cancer or how that treatment is not good because of X, y and Z, because it was so hurtful when my husband was going through it when we received all those kinds of comments. But the other thing is that God has so uniquely created us that what might be helpful for you with the exact same diagnosis is not necessarily going to be the best treatment for me, and so I want to give your listeners who are going through the devastating situation permission to limit how much you share, and I would say, definitely share with a trusted few. But just because people are interested or just because they ask questions doesn't mean that you have to divulge more than you feel comfortable divulging that is such good wisdom and I don't know that I ever would have considered that to be an option.

I mean, I have not dealt with a devastating diagnosis, but previously I had asked you one time, not knowing that's where you stood, and when you kind of told me where you, you know you're responsive, like we don't. I'm not sharing that, it was respectful, it was like it was. It was like, oh, I don't have to know everything and she doesn't have to share, and I will still. You can still support a friend without knowing the fullness and all of the details of a diagnosis. So that is wonderful permission and thank you for that.

Well, it's interesting because some people, like you, received it really well and other people have not received it well. But part of what brought us to that place is, first of all, we learned a lot going through Scott's cancer three different times and in that process I also learned, you know what? I don't want to come into agreement with the enemy Because this is not from God, this is from the enemy of our soul, and I'm not going to come into agreement. And for me, sharing the exact kind of cancer is like saying, yep, I agree with the enemy, this is, this is my lot in life, and I'm like, no, I still believe God is in charge and I believe God will use it. But the other thing is that we heard so many devastating stories about my husband's type of cancer and God's the one who ultimately gets to decide. Doctors, diagnose and treat, but ultimately God. Numbers are days and if we had believed all the negative reports and he should have died 22 years ago and he's still with us.

Doctors diagnose and God decides. I love it. That's so true, that's so true. Let's shift a little bit to one of the other things that you suggested to us, and that is a care package, and consider tangible expressions of your support. I don't think I'm alone when I can say there are so many times that something tragic has happened or someone is dealing with something and I want to help and I don't know what to do. I would love to hear some of the suggestions that you have to help us provide support to those who are dealing with this diagnosis of cancer or anything else, specifically with respect to a major health condition.

You can put together a gift bag or a basket that has things like a small notebook and a pen, because your friend is going to be taking notes of their doctor's appointment. They need to write down questions to ask their doctor and not forget. They need to write down what time they took their medication, what their pain levels are. So a small notebook and a pen For someone who's going through chemotherapy. Consider dry mouth lozenges, because they will be a lifesaver. Consider healthy snacks so that when they're in the car driving to doctor's appointments and maybe they may be at a doctor's appointment and the doctor says I have to send you over to the hospital for a PET scan they need to have something in the car so that they can get something to eat and keep their energy up. Consider this is going to sound funny, but consider a scarf, gloves, leg warmers and fuzzy socks, because hospitals and chemotherapy rooms are freezing, they are so cold, and while most of them have these warm blankets, can I just tell you the warmth from those blankets lasts all of 93 seconds, and these are the kind of things that the patient doesn't necessarily think about, but they're going to be so grateful for. You might also consider a grocery store gift card so that they can order groceries online and have it delivered. You might consider a massage gift card, because when your body is hurting, that gift of touch can make such a difference. Consider a potted plant as opposed to a floral bouquet, because the floral bouquet is going to die and start to smell in about three and a half days, but a potted plant Every time your friend looks at it they'll think of you. Consider puzzle books, coloring books and pens, maybe even an audiobook to listen to while they're sitting in doctors waiting rooms, or a chemotherapy chair. That's like those tangible expressions of love that you can put in a basket or a bag. But there are also other tangible expressions of love, like one of the things that was meant so much to us was when he was going through weekly chemotherapy. A friend contacted me, texted. I didn't even have to answer the phone, which was so sweet. She said if you will put out your sheets in a laundry basket every Monday morning, I will take them home, wash them, fold them and bring them back on your porch Monday evening, and you don't even have to answer the door. Oh, what patient doesn't want clean sheets. But she made it so easy for me. There was no way I could say no. But she all by saying you don't even have to come to the door, I didn't have to worry about what I look like, what I felt like, whether we were going to be home or not. Something else that someone did was my son's cross country team contacted us it was October in Texas and they said our cross country team wants to come over Saturday and rake and bag your leaves because there was no way my husband and I could get to it. None, but it had to be done. Those are acts of service that I will never forget and that I keep in mind when someone else is going through it. But you don't have to be that magnanimous. You can text and say I'm headed to the grocery store, is there anything you need? I will pick it up for you and leave it on your porch on my way by. Or I'm picking up my kids from school. Can I pick them up for you so you don't feel like you have to get dressed today. Those are ways that you can incorporate already into what you're doing, but it means such a need for the person we're just brushing their teeth is about all the energy they can muster for a day.

Thank you for those specific things. You have given us so many different options that will. I think we can don depending on what our personality is and where we are. If we're for the acts of service, we can do that for the gift givers. There's so many different ways of that. I will say I did not know that you had a cross country son. Those kids my youngest son runs cross country. That is the best type of community and culture and I am not surprised at all to hear that his team showed up to help out. What is it?

That same year, one of the cross country team members was diagnosed with cancer. Oh my gosh. And those people rallied in our garage and made this huge yard banner so that when he got up and looked out his window because he was not allowed contact with anybody, he had to stay quarantined he looked out his window. He saw the kids had thought of him. It was such a tangible expression of love. But let me tell you where I've messed up. When other people have been going through a difficult time, I have made the mistake of saying if you need anything, let me know. Can I tell you the person who's going through pain? They're not going to let you know, for one. They're already on decision overload and the idea of thinking through what you can do to help me is too much. I can't do it and so I'm not going to ask. Or I've asked someone before and been on the receiving end when it was not convenient and it felt like rejection, and I get it. You know it's not always going to be convenient, but this was someone who had said if you need anything, let me know. And so when I finally did because I'm the type that if I can do it myself, I'm going to do it so if I ask you for help, it means I'm in an emergency and being turned down is worse than never asking. So I've learned from my own faux pas. It's better for me to say I'm making lasagna for my family, I'm going to make a second pan. Is Tuesday better for you or Wednesday? Not, can I bring a meal over, because most people are gonna say no, or I don't know what time is good, or I don't know if I'm gonna be home. Just specifically ask is Tuesday better or Wednesday? Do you want garlic bread or salad with that? You know, make it as easy on the person who's already suffering as possible.

We heard the same thing from Elizabeth Lee Bradley when gosh this was back in May 2020, and she does a lot of work for caregivers, to help support caregivers and she said the same thing, because when you say, if you need anything, let me know, that it puts the burden on them to come up with something like that's a lot of pressure and so just saying and I love your specific thing of you're giving them a choice, but not a full choice, because you know that they need it, and then also, if it's something like lasagna, they can always freeze it. If they don't want to have it, then just throw it in the freezer and wait. Yes, yes, let's talk. Speaking of caregivers, I have one more point that I want to cover, and then we'll get into the questions that I love to ask all of my guests. The final guidance that you have is consider your friends' families needs as caregivers, because caregivers are in their own special kind of space as well, so tell us some about that.

First of all, god bless the caregivers. Seriously, we need you, so thank you. If you are in a caregiving role, thank you, but we have to remember the caregivers as well as the patient. My husband would tell you I was under more stress than he was because I was caregiving and I was trying to work and I was trying to make sure that the kids got where they needed to do. So. Offer caregivers a period of respite. Offer to come over and clean or to sit with their loved ones so they can take a nap or they can run errands that only they can do. Offer to check in every Monday to see if there are prescriptions that they need picked up so that they can stay with their loved one and not go out and do those mundane tasks. Offer to give them a day or two where you just come over and sit or you are the transportation to get their loved one to doctor's appointments. Just remember they are going through a really stressful time as well. So anything you can do to recognize and honor the fact that they are being sacrificial helps lessen their burden just a little bit.

Great points and thank you for that. I have witnessed caregiving on my end and it is something that I think is very easy to overlook, and yet when they are so ingrained and entrenched in taking care of someone else, I have to imagine it's very lonely and overwhelming, and being remembered as well as the patient for whom they are caring is probably really meaningful.

And some of those ideas that we talked about for the person going through it are applicable to the caregiver too. Send them a text and say I see you, I notice what you're doing and I just want you to know that God loves you for your sacrifice. Consider sending them a card saying I just want to encourage you, stay the course. This is valuable. I recognize what you're doing, because sometimes the person who's in pain is the last one to thank the caregiver.

I'm sorry to laugh. That's true, that's also been something I have seen. Yes, well, thank you for that wisdom and thank you, too, for the very specific things, and I have to assume that, if you're listening and you're like me, that is getting the balls or the wheels turning of other ways. Sometimes we just need a little bit of an open door to say these are some things that's like, oh yeah, well, also, I can do this, or this is kind of in my skill set, or things that I love to do for people. So I really appreciate the specific things that you have given us here and I think, if we're open, to it and we pray about it.

God will direct us to the exact needs that the people have that they would never voice and we would not know about. That's so true. That's a really great point.

Okay, I have some questions that I ask all of my guests, and we were talking before you came on. This is your fifth time here on the Grace Health podcast, which I think means you are the most the guest who has been on the most, and somehow I have not asked the question that I am about to ask, which is I love learning about people's tattoos and I don't have any, but I have found that people who choose to put something on their body for the rest of their life often have a meaning behind it. So I was wondering, if you have a tattoo, if you would be willing to share what it is and the meaning behind it, and if you don't but you had to get one, what would it be and where would it go?

I do not have one, primarily because I'm watching my body age and I'm just not sure how a tattoo on my body would fare the older I get. But if I had to get one, I think I would find a designer who could design a tattoo of a woman's hand reaching out to touch a tassel, because the woman with the issue of blood who reached out to the hem of Jesus' garment endured great pain for 12 years and yet she kept her faith. And I'm such a visual person that I think that would be such a beautiful reminder to me, when I'm tempted to give up, to keep reaching out. That's a beautiful visual.

And that's also a great segue into my next question, which is I was wondering if you could tell us about your book, the Hem of His Garment. So tell us a little bit about it and where we can get it. The publisher actually came to me to ask if I would write a book about pain.

Wow, in complete honesty, my first thought was absolutely not, because I know what I have to go through as an experiential writer to write each of the books I've written. But I prayed about it and I felt like the Lord said you don't have to, but then I'll get someone else to do it. And immediately I thought no, I want to be obedient more than I want to be comfortable. But what is different about the Hem of His Garment is all the other books I've written. I've written on the other side of pain. I've written on the other side of pain. I've written on the other side of depression after getting through it, on the other side of anxiety, on the other side of a negative mindset. This book was written in the crucible of physical, emotional, relational, financial and spiritual pain, to give people hope and to help readers answer the question if I know God can heal, how do I hold onto my faith when he hasn't healed me yet? And what lessons or gifts might God offer in the midst of my pain that I might not experience if I lived life easy in a pain-free existence? And the book in part focuses on that woman with the issue of blood, because she did endure all those types of pain and yet she kept her faith and ultimately, in God's timing, her faith was rewarded.

That's right. Yes, after 12 years, and I can only imagine the I don't want to say despair, maybe it's despair, but just the crying out to God Is this ever going to get better? Will I ever heal? And she is a powerful reminder of our faith and Jesus' power and how it can heal. Now, out to that end, do you have a meaningful Bible verse that you would like to share?

Yes, genesis 50, verse 20, that says what the enemy intended for harm, god will use for the saving of His people, because I've witnessed so many times, whether it's through cancer or depression or anxiety or relationship difficulties, it's so easy to be focused on the pain, but we know that God is not the author of pain, satan is, and I love to look for the ways that God redeems our pain and kind of thumbs his nose at the enemy.

And what I have learned from this conversation is, if I want to share that verse with someone, I should also include a little commentary, a prayer, something else a little more personal with it, rather than just sending someone Genesis 50, 20.

That's right, and it might just be something like I hate what the enemy has brought into your life. So I'm going to continue to pray that God redeems this pain.

Yes, that's great. Simplicity is good too. Yes, I don't think we have. Here's your heart, right, right, okay, what is the final? One simple thing that you would like to share about or that you would like to have our community remember. It can be big, it can be small, but one simple thing about today's conversation.

Pain of any type tempts us to isolate from others and from God, and if you have a friend or a family member who's enduring some kind of pain, you have the opportunity to be a voice of encouragement for them. So seek out ways to step into their pain rather than stepping away in your own discomfort.

That's wonderful. Amen, and thank you for that. Okay, that is all for today. Go out there and have a grace today.