The Truth About Men and Diet Culture: A Christian Perspective on Body Image, Faith, and Finding Balance

The Truth About Men and Diet Culture: A Christian Perspective on Body Image, Faith, and Finding Balance with Jeff Ash

Amy Connell: [00:00:00] Jeff, welcome.

Jeff Ash: Hey, great to be here.

Amy Connell: I'm thrilled you're here and I just want to jump in because I feel like we've got a lot of ground to cover. First, I have to acknowledge that you are one of the few men that has been on this podcast. So welcome to the world of women and menopause and hormones and trying to figure it all out along with how we're going to eat and move.

Jeff Ash: Yeah. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you had me come on and you're not the first to tell me that I'm even the first. There's been several I've been on that were, wow, you're our first man to be on the show and, and that kind of thing. And so it's always great when, when people are open to, to hearing that other perspective on some of these topics and stuff.

Amy Connell: well, I think you're the very, The perfect person to talk with us about today's topic, which is all about diet culture and men. So let's just jump in and I'm wondering if you, I feel like there is a difference, but how does diet culture show up differently for men [00:01:00] than for women?

Jeff Ash: Yeah, it's a good question because I think it shows up in similar ways, but yet there are some, some definitely some distinct ways that it, that it tends to show up and, and I see it most when as a member of some fitness groups that I'm in that are typical, fitness groups, and they're Christian ones, so. Which you might think, oh, wow, okay, they're probably not gonna be so focused on appearance and this kind of thing, but in reality, it's, it's pretty bleak, I

Amy Connell: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Jeff Ash: one sense. Because it really does mirror the culture and in some ways, at certain areas, I think it can even be a little worse because there's this idea of what a Christian man is supposed to do Which there's nothing Wrong with that.

I mean a lot of it is biblically based, but I think sometimes it's taken to extremes and so while men are like they need to be lean and that, you know, not carry too much body fat, just [00:02:00] like women, it's not so much for beauty standards, although there is a, a strong push toward looking your best and, and looking like you take care of yourself and, and, and that taking care of yourself has a certain look to it. But there's also this, this idea that that you also have to be strong. And so, you know, you hear this. Among guys, a lot of times you even lift bro. It's kind of a joking way of, of somewhat making fun of somebody who's skinnier and thinner,

Amy Connell: hmm.

Jeff Ash: that kind of thing. You know it's, it's interesting.

I hear some of these discussions about guys talking about how, you know, I, I think that it's, it's a certainly a, a good thing. Perspective to have that we should be there to provide for and protect for, you know, protect our families But they take it to this level in in cases where I see them. You have to be big and strong You know when when the time comes that you're going to be in hand to hand combat and it's kind of like oh Is that really that big of a concern?

I [00:03:00] mean 50 almost 53 and and I have yet to use my hand to hand combat skills outside of a karate tournament setting. And so it's kind of interesting to see that. And, and if you don't have that mentality, it's often viewed as a sign of weakness. that you should be changing and so anyway coming back to like body image and and those kinds of things it It carries over into that and so a lot of guys feel like they have to do certain things from It's not just about getting healthy.

It's about getting big and strong and healthy And yeah, and so we I do see a lot of that Yeah

Amy Connell: in my first book, Your Worthy Body, a very generalized statement, but you just confirmed it. And that is in our society. And I think this is particularly true in American culture because different cultures around the world have different body ideals. I'm saying in quotes, but in general, men, women want to be as, [00:04:00] take up as little space as possible.

And men want to take up as much space as possible. And just like we have these conversations in our female dominated spaces of our bodies are naturally like we have different muscle tone, we have different heights, we have different sizes. I think sometimes our society forgets to give that same nuance to men, even though they absolutely need it.

And I can tell you in my house, I have. And my husband and then we have two boys and my husband is, you know, a long and lean kind of guy and I am more of a, like a dense and muscular and you know, that's just my frame. And so our boys each got one of them. And so you look at them, they're practically the same height, but they literally weigh.

Like 50 pounds different than each other just because of their natural size. And so [00:05:00] I definitely see that a lot. And I'm also wondering if we can dig into that a little bit more, because I'm curious in terms of like the whole, not only body image diet culture, but also from the mentality of maybe food.

And what I'm getting at is. Anecdotally, I. I've noticed in conversations I have with men that it is very black and white, very all or nothing. And I'm wondering if you might be able to speak to that or if that just happens to be the type of men I'm talking to who are mostly in my husband's line of work.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, yeah, so indefinitely in the fitness spaces, that is the case of very black and white. And unfortunate, this is what kind of drives me crazy too, with especially Christians should be gravitating toward discovering the truth, making sure that the things that come out of their mouth are truthful, and that we're not exaggerating, that we're, all of this kind of thing, and I find [00:06:00] so many get sucked into these, These trends and and things that are just not grounded in truth and they get sucked in because they sound good and then they spiritualize them.

And so you got guys about certain eating patterns as being more or less godly. Now, they may not say the pattern you're eating in is ungodly, but they certainly use language that makes it that implies that, you know, you are an undisciplined person. You're, you're, you're not It's exhibiting the kinds of qualities that would be something that I would expect from a spiritually mature man.

In fact, this conver this discussion's come up several times in a couple of different, of these groups that are, one's all men and one's primarily men. And it is, is, can you have a, can a pastor be fat?

Amy Connell: hmm. Mm hmm.

Jeff Ash: him? And so it's really interesting to see the discussions and the insights.

Unfortunately, you know a number [00:07:00] of people jump in and say that's a ridiculous question and and others will give a little bit more insight on why You know why you can be a pastor and be that and but but it tends to gravitate more toward No, that's a disqualifying characteristic in a sense Or they need to be doing something about it

Amy Connell: Right. Yeah,

Jeff Ash: recently about a pastor who was talking about having bariatric surgery. And, you know, the guys were talking about, well, that's just taking the easy way out and this and that. And so just this, this whole mentality is, yeah, it's very cut and dry in, in many ways.

And whatever dietary principles that, that guys tend to follow, they tend to hold onto it very tightly and tend to speak about it very dogmatically. Carnivore is so popular right now in the lifting communities and you hear people talking about that. But even when it's not, it's keto, keto, it's all keto and it's gotta be this, it's gotta be that.

[00:08:00] Fasting. Well, coffee breaks your fast or this, you know, does this break your fast and all of these different kinds of. things come up. So yeah, I would long way of saying yes. I think they, they can often get very black and white with with the thinking on that and even with training and things like that too.

Amy Connell: I definitely see that. I mean, there's, there's no, it does, it seems like there's not a lot of yellow light. It's just, it's, it's red or green. Yeah. Where I think that there's so much to learn and so much value in, in the yellow. So I, I can speak from a female perspective. And a teen girl perspective.

Cause I do a lot of work for them as well. You know, when I think about diet culture influences, I think about now in today's 2024 vocabulary, I think about Instagram. I think about Tik TOK. I think about. The wellness industry in general on both of these platforms in particular, which I really want to do.

I want to do an episode called the wellness industry has [00:09:00] lost its mind. How's here's how not to lose yours. Cause it's, it's gotten so bananas over there. I mean, growing up for me, it was, it was magazines. It was billboards. I mean, just there, we are inundated with spaces of people just shooting diet culture at us.

I don't know about, I only know like what I see, right? And so when I look at my people, I've got two people who are totally off the grid. No, I mean, no social media at all, not interested in any of that one who is highly discerning about it. And so I'm sitting there looking at that going, I'm not sure that that's where diet culture is showing up for them.

Jeff Ash: hmm.

Amy Connell: I'm wondering if you might be able to point to some places that have the potential to be problematic in terms of diet culture. Places, spaces, and maybe even people that might hit men differently than, than females.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, and that's a great, great question. I think a lot of men pick it up from [00:10:00] gym culture. So if they're hanging around the gym, hey, you start to naturally pick it up. You might have a conversation with somebody at the gym, and, oh, wow, you're looking jacked, and, you know, what, What's your secret kind of thing?

That's a common thing, you know, what's your diet look like? What's your training look like? and as if it's that's how you you know, if you follow this then

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: this

Amy Connell: Yeah.

Jeff Ash: kind of thing and And so I think that that's one place that that it can be picked up And of course, it's it's that's a terrible place to pick it up because the advice is generally not very well Grounded, you know, most of your totally jacked guys.

There's You It's not that they don't work hard, but there are, there's some genetic factors involved there

Amy Connell: 100%.

Jeff Ash: of us, or time, you know, when you're 24 and you don't even have a girlfriend and you can train as much as you want and eat however you want. It's easier to look that way than it is when you're 45 a VP at a [00:11:00] bank and working 60 hours a week and doing church stuff.

You're an elder at church and you have family and you have young kids, all that stuff. So but I think a lot of them also pick it, pick it up from, I hate to say it, we pick it up at church.

Amy Connell: Hmm.

Jeff Ash: from pastors. We hear it from Bible study groups. I've had men's groups. Guys talk about what they're doing, which usually like, at least at my church, it's not come up like in any kind of a destructive or or problematic way, but it's still there, you know, Oh, yeah, I'm cutting out this.

I'm cutting out that. Oh, yeah, I'm trying to go to the gym more often. And it's not that any of those things are bad. It's that hear that and we start suddenly take that on as like, Is that being something that we should be doing too. So, you should be praying with your wife, you should be praying with your kids, you should be spending time, you should be involved in the ministry at church.

Oh, and you should be lifting [00:12:00] weights at the gym five days a week. And so it kind of gets lumped in with all of these other things. And I think that that's, I think that's more the, the subtle ways that diet culture can can sneak its way in for men and then men start thinking that when they are only going to the Gym twice a week, you know, which is actually quite healthy.

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: of health benefits from that They think yeah, I've just been letting myself go lately. I'm not getting there five times a week anymore I'm I'm lucky to get in there one or two instead of thinking In terms of, wow, look, but I, you know, I'm, I am taking care of myself and yeah, I'm not as strong as I'd be if I went five days a week, but I'm healthy

Amy Connell: Right?

Jeff Ash: that kind of thing.

And so that all or nothing mentality is another way that I think that that comes in. And then I think a lot of guys of the information they're picking up is not so much from social media, but from the internet still they're googling it and going on youtube and watching, you know, your mark hyman's your jason fung's and you you know, [00:13:00] you're all these guys with these different protocols and

Amy Connell: All of the optimizers. Yeah. There's a lot of optimizers out there right now.

Jeff Ash: of the yeah. Oh, you got to go check him out and

Amy Connell: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: Yeah. Let's, let's get some consistent eating habits in place. Let's start there and, Nope, nope. That's not what you do. You gotta cut out this, cut out that you gotta take these supplements. All or

Amy Connell: Yeah, yeah, there's two things there that I that my mind goes to. One of them is like, yeah, the optimization protocol, whatever that is. So I have, I'm 49. I have a very big birthday this year and. I'm right in the thick of like perimenopause and like trying to understand my hormones and I know my community is as well.

And so as a personal trainer, I am thirsty for knowledge about like, okay, well how can I meet my body where it is? Maybe make some tweaks, not in a dogmatic way, but just in a way of like, okay, things are changing. And [00:14:00] so I'm going to change with them and you know, and see how that goes. And so one of the women I I follow and I've learned from is Dr.

Stacy Sims, who is a great researcher. And I feel like she presents a lot of her nutritional information in a pretty good way. I mean, it's I'm very comfortable with saying like, check her stuff out. If you're, you know, if, as long as you're not like dealing with particular eating disorders or something, but she was on Huberman.

I'm, I hate to pick on him, but like we're going through, cause he has some good stuff. I mean, I will, I will, I definitely give that, but anyway, so. And so throughout this interview, and she's talking about, you know, the string training and did it, he was like, okay, so let's create a protocol. We're going to call it the Sims protocol.

I'm like, why do we need to make this a protocol? Like, why can't we take what works for us and not worry about the rest of this stuff? And yeah, so all of that for sure. And then the other thing I've heard you say a couple of times is, and this wasn't your word, but like the chatter. So the chatter in the, in different spaces for men may [00:15:00] be.

Permeating a little bit more or maybe in a different way of like, Oh, well, if this is what you're doing, and if you are a godly man who I respect and looks like you've got your life in order, then if you're doing that, then I need to do that. I think women do it a little, do it as well, but maybe the, the behind that maybe the intention of it is a bit different, or I don't know, you know, of course we're all, we're just so different.

Right. But the other thing too that I can't help but wonder is how many of us, and I can only speak for myself, but how many of us, now that we're learning about diet culture, now that we're learning about some of the harmful language or harmful messaging that we intended in love, that we intended to help

Jeff Ash: Yeah.

Amy Connell: has hurt or harmed our men and the men in our life, whether they are adults or whether they are children.

And I'm just wondering for those of us who are like, Oh [00:16:00] man, I messed that up. Like I taught my boys this, I taught my husband this, how can we begin to rectify those fissures of diet culture that can become really big and problematic? If not, if, if they're not filled in.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, and that's a hard one. It's, I

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: you start from the beginning. So if you start your kids off you know, using maybe Ellen Satter's approach to feeding kids and where the parent decides what they're going to have and when and that, and then the child decides what they're going to eat from what's offered at each meal and they get in this habit of where they're determining how much they're going to eat and they're just, and it's just a natural thing.

You know, they. grow into an intuitive eater versus the parent who's restricting the kid. And then suddenly when they're 13 says, okay, we're doing this intuitive eating thing now.

Amy Connell: Yeah.

Jeff Ash: And then, and then they just throw they

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: off and then they're wondering why their kid [00:17:00] is just in the pantry 24 hours a day.

And it's good. Well cause they'd been restricted for so long and now you've let them have that freedom. And so I think that it's, it's definitely difficult when you've already ingrained those things, but just like with anything, just starting to change the language that you're using. And in some cases, I mean, flat out apologizing, especially if you realize that the way you've been doing things was just absolutely kind of over the top. And, and I, you know, I think that, that that's going to be up to each individual to decide kind of whether it's a, Hey, I need to apologize for this, or, or I just need to start. Talking about this stuff differently. So, you know, I

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: my mom I think she did weight watchers once or twice when I was a kid, but she never talked about it So even if she were to change, I mean, she's really not a a big dieter or anything by any means but would never expect her to if she [00:18:00] embraced intuitive eating specifically to come back and apologize that That she went on weight watchers one time and told me about it's like that's unnecessary but So I think just changing the language and changing the way that you talk about things.

And one of the big ones has changed the way you talk about your own body. And that's probably harder than anything. Cause it's easier. I think it's easier to say, you know what? I'm not going to compliment my husband on his abs anymore. And I'm not going to slap his stomach when, when he's a little pudgier than usual, though like, I don't even care.

Like, so maybe you're a wife and you really don't care and you just like to do it for fun. But. Some guys honestly that may not bother them at all but other guys it may and they'll never tell you that it does because How silly is that that when your wife just rubs your belly that that you would be like have your feelings heard about that it really does it can sink in and it does those small subtle little [00:19:00] things can be can can affect you in that way, so anyway, those kinds of things.

Yeah, sometimes it's easy to change and say, okay, i'm not going to do that anymore I'm not going to say that anymore You But then you still are about how I look terrible in this outfit. And so you're still fixated on that appearance aspect, which continues to propagate that that idea that a certain size body and a certain look is what you should be striving for. So I think that that's probably the Where I would say is the biggest area is and it's so hard to to stop that because we do we criticize ourselves And

Amy Connell: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Jeff Ash: own worst critics 

Amy Connell: Oh yeah.

Jeff Ash: Yeah

Amy Connell: my husband summed it up for me one time, which I thought was just brilliant. And it was probably after a season of like, just eating more than we wanted. And it was probably after like a holiday season [00:20:00] and. I remember saying one time, like, Oh gosh, I'm really just unhappy. Like I'm not feeling good in my body.

And I don't really remember where I was in my own personal, like body awareness and language and all of that kind of stuff. So who knows what kind of words were coming out of my mouth? And he said, and, and so, and that, and it was just a recurring theme for a little bit of like and he said, you know, Amy, what's funny.

He said. Women will be unhappy and it's all they can think about. And it drives every single thing that they're doing in terms of their moving and how they're eating and all of that. And he was like, he said men, which I don't know if this is true for men or just for him, but he was like, men are like, huh, I've gained a little weight.

Oh, well, he was like, it just doesn't occupy our head. I think the point he was trying to get was like, it doesn't occupy the headspace, but you know, you're right. Like that is going to bother some men and stay in that space more than others. But I just thought that was so funny because I was [00:21:00] like, wait a minute, you mean you're not obsessing about all of this all the time?

That's really interesting. Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Jeff Ash: might make a comment like that and i'm like So and it's just a subtle a small little thing and in the moment it bothers me But then I forget about it five minutes later and it really doesn't affect Affect me like I'm not dwelling on it I know and I've worked with men who it consumes so much of what they're thinking about Throughout the day and I think a lot of it depends on You know traumatic history in the past where you are spiritually, I think has, plays a role in that for, for people too.

I mean, if you are, if you are not in a good place spiritually, you're much more likely to fall for those. worldly ideals and ideas That can pull you astray But even if you do get sucked into those that doesn't [00:22:00] mean that you are also not spiritually So it's not a it's not a black and white issue and so that's why it it is so individual and and You really have to find out what it is that That's driving a person's thoughts and the kinds of thoughts they're having about those things and how they're thinking about their body and where that's coming from.

You know, if it's somebody who thinks a certain way about their body because of childhood sexual trauma versus somebody who got teased a little bit in high school because they were chubby. then, but otherwise, other than that, they weren't, they didn't have any major body issues. Yeah, they may manifest some of the similar kinds of things, but there's a whole different route that needs to be dealt with there and I think that Unfortunately, too.

That's something we see in the church a lot too is that mental health is often not taken very seriously It's often diminished as a lack of spiritual maturity, [00:23:00] you know, if you're depressed anxious if you're Having these issues that the way to deal with it is to pray more which yes, that is part of it

Amy Connell: Yes.

Jeff Ash: seeking counsel and seeing a Christian counselor or christian therapist is also another thing that can be super helpful so that you can get to a place where you can process things appropriately and

Amy Connell: Yeah.

Jeff Ash: I think that's part of what we see different in men too, especially especially in the church.

It is not It's becoming more accepted but it's still a big especially in certain circles it's still a big problem where you know, if you are expressing mental health issues, then that's it's kind of a suck it up and you know, man up kind of a thing

Amy Connell: Yeah. I used to live in a different state and city and there was a Bible college nearby that my neighbor was employed at and I don't remember what role he had there, but he was in treatment for depression and they, [00:24:00] they let him go. Because of the depression, which is just astounding. You know, it's funny when you were talking about how some things might bother some men, whereas it might not bother another man the verse from second Corinthians 10, five, where you take every captive thought or take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ.

To me, that is where our, our spiritual walk with Jesus. Can help us along in these situations because it's like, okay, does my wife really think that I'm unattractive because she, you know, pinched an inch on me or whatever, or, you know, am I really not a good husband or am I not a good leader in our family or in our, in my church because of this?

No, like taking it captive and like really turning and focusing on what What Jesus says about us rather than the words that we're hearing. And some of them will hit harder than others for different people. So

Jeff Ash: hmm.

Amy Connell: that's a really [00:25:00] good point. I do have one question. You mentioned Ellen Souter. I'm not familiar with her.

Tell us really quickly about that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Mm hmm.

Jeff Ash: considered kind of the of child nutrition. so she has another weight neutral, non diet approach called How to Eat that's a similar to intuitive eating adults and older teens. But then she also has something called the Satter's Division of Responsibility in Feeding that is an approach that you use with younger kids, typically, where The division of responsibility is the parent has a certain responsibility, certain parts are their responsibility, and the child has certain responsibilities, and the parent's job is, to decide what, where, and when. As far as food. So what food is going to be offered at mealtimes [00:26:00] and part of that is always making sure that there are options available that you know, each one of your Children is going to be comfortable eating and so that they can fill up at every every eating opportunity. And then the child decides whether they're going to eat and how much. So if the child, you know this whole, you can leave the table after you eat five bites. That's not a thing. you know, Here's what's offered. Here's what's on. And there's plenty of things here. There's bread here. You know, say a kid will eat five pieces of bread. You put the bread on there. They know that there is plenty to fill up on.

It may not be ideal, obviously, from a nutritional standpoint, but over the course of the week, they're going to fill in all those gaps or if they skip a meal and don't eat as much. We know they're gonna eat more at the next one or vice versa if they eat a lot at one They're probably gonna eat less than another so anyway you let the child decide whether they're gonna eat and how much and which items are going to eat and then But the the when part in her in her [00:27:00] basically is a bit more structured.

So you have structured meal and snack times So the idea is that the child knows that at 8 o'clock in the morning, they're gonna have breakfast You At 1030 in the morning, they're going to have a snack at noon, they're going to have lunch and so forth. And so it helps them to feel more comfortable if they're getting a little hungry.

They know, you know what? I, I, I don't need to panic. I don't need to go hiding food and stealing food. I can just, and I also know that my snack is not just going to be a handful of pretzels. It's going to be something substantial and filling so I can actually fill up and that will carry me over to my next meal. Kind of meal time and so it's it's a really great approach for for kids to provide that structure

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: so yeah, you could definitely look up her stuff and there's there's There's a great YouTube channel. I'm trying to remember what it is. I think it's growing intuitive eaters

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: by Taylor gosh, what's her name? Taylor, [00:28:00] I'm blanking on her

Amy Connell: Oh, that's fine.

Jeff Ash: yeah, it's a so it's a really cool approach for that. And, and the how to eat method is very similar to intuitive eating, tuning into your hunger and fullness and satisfaction, but it brings in an aspect of structure for your meal and snack times. So it's the same kind of thing to, you're not grazing whenever you're feeling hungry, you're making sure that you're feeding yourself well at each kind of scheduled opportunity.

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: so, yeah, so it's, it's a really neat approach. I actually use it a lot bringing some of those aspects into my intuitive eating coaching with people and especially men. tend to find that I mean women do too, but but men like Especially when they're very structured and they want like a plan That gives them okay.

So this isn't a free for all.

Amy Connell: Oh,

Jeff Ash: fill up their plan out a snack be intentional about it. Here's some snack ideas and and so that that can be [00:29:00] really helpful

Amy Connell: you're giving us all kinds of all kinds of unexpected, wonderful nuggets and, and I'm just wondering if there are some women in my community who are maybe trying to help their children raise their kids. their children, raise their grandchildren in more of a non diet way. So I love that. And I haven't heard of her.

So that's, that's a good resource to know about.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, she's she's mentioned in the intuitive eating book

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, so that's yeah, so so she's mentioned in there and i'll send you a link you can include that in the

Amy Connell: Perfect.

Jeff Ash: Yeah in the show notes 

Amy Connell: I'm so sorry, Jeff. I got this cough that's been going around. So sorry about that. Okay. So I'm also thinking about. You know, maybe we're on this path of, you know, maybe doing the apologizing, which by the way, I have done that with my children is like, Hey, I think I'm, I'm now realizing that I use some, you know, language that wasn't good or whatever.

And now I'm, I'm trying to rectify my own [00:30:00] situations. And I'm, I know a lot of my community as, as well, because they've kind of, some of them have confided in me about this. How can we point our men in a non diet approach without coming across of like, well, you need to do this because I think that there's probably going to be a bit of a feeling of whiplash.

Like you were telling me to track my calories. You were telling me to get on this app and count my macros and make sure I was doing all of this. And now you're telling me like, don't worry about it, have whatever you, and, and so there is a, that's gotta be a little discombobulating to men. And Maybe this is unfair of me, but a lot of men don't want their women telling them what to do and a lot of young adult Sons don't want their moms telling them what to do either and so guide us through this is a personal coaching session Jeff I don't know that you knew that I'm just

Jeff Ash: I was going to as you were [00:31:00] telling me that my first thought was quit treating men like like children

Amy Connell: Yeah Yes, right, yeah Right

Jeff Ash: assuming that you married him because you thought he would be a godly man and a good leader for your family, then treating them like that is going to be the best way.

So and I say that, I mean, men often get, go off in the weeds. And so you're naturally you're like trying your your instinct is to Stop it. Stop it. Don't do that Or here's how to do that. You know, you're spinning your wheels. Here's how you can do that, but it usually doesn't come across very well from our partners just like you know, if If my wife gives me advice and then I hear that same advice from somebody else I may not take it from her, but I hear it from the other person or vice versa. And then they share something with you and you're like didn't [00:32:00] I just give you that same exact advice? No, you didn't No that yeah, I don't think that's what you said and just coming from somebody else it often hits different. I mean, that's why Counselors don't provide counseling for their spouses. Their spouses go to a different counselor and that kind of a thing.

And same with parents. I had a, I had a older teenage girl that I worked with for a while and her mom was actually an eating disorder specialist. And the girl was needing some of some guidance with some of her training and nutrition ideas. And she wasn't way off in the weeds, but the mom, the mom specializes in exactly what she needed.

But she got somebody else to to provide that for so I think the same is true for for spouses and and even teenage boys, too I mean, yes, you're still their mom, but that they do have to start learning to And they're going to start pulling away in those ways. And so if you can find Kind of a godly male mentor that's not their dad because I [00:33:00] mean dads are great too, but it's still there it's still that father son relationship where it's still a little different than if it's You Somebody at church you know, often people relate well with their youth pastor or something like that.

That can be hard, though, to find, too, because

Amy Connell: Diet culture in the church.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, you're, you point them to this wonderful, godly man who is wrapped up in diet culture. So,

Amy Connell: Yeah. I read an interesting study recently out of Stanford that basically said once teens, males and females hit like 13 or 14, they literally tune into unfamiliar voices. Over familiar voices, particularly from their parents, particularly from their moms, which any mom of a 14 year old is going to be, or any parent of a 14 year old is like, well, I knew that you didn't, I didn't need a study, but the study confirmed what we all intuitively know as parents, which is they don't listen to us.

And it's funny, cause I wrote this book for teen girls [00:34:00] and I had a mom call me and she was like, My daughter is saying what such wonderful things about this book. It's the same thing that I've been telling her. Why didn't it get, and she was upset. She was like, why didn't this get through to her? And I'm like, because I'm not you, because she's going to listen to me because I'm not you.

So yeah, good points with that. And it also reminds me of something one of my pastors said years ago with regard to. women and dealing with their husbands. And it wasn't about health perspective, but it was about spiritual health. But she was like, no woman has ever nagged her husband to Christ.

Jeff Ash: hmm.

Amy Connell: Like, you're not going to nag your husband in anything.

Like it just doesn't work. So stop nagging. Yeah. Individualization

Jeff Ash: to get frustrated. And so a lot of times it's It's understanding that we may not be the best one And so that's [00:35:00] where sometimes just changing our own language and how we talk about our own bodies is one way that we can start to communicate those things to to others around and yeah, that's it's such a difficult one.

Every relationship's different too because some relationships the you know having that very blunt conversation with your spouse may be May work really well in your in your relationship, but in other relationships it it may not and Just based on past history and personalities and all of those kinds of things

Amy Connell: for sure.

Jeff Ash: hmm

Amy Connell: So I, like I mentioned, we just, I just wrapped up I had over the summer, a whole series on intuitive eating and one of them on one of the episodes, Kristen Williams came on, who's a registered dietitian. She works with eating disorders. And this was all from a Christian perspective.

One of the comments Kristen made that I really liked is it's about the awareness. And it's not necessarily about the sense of health and nutrition and [00:36:00] nourishing our bodies, but it's not necessarily about the obsession. And I love that distinction because, you know, we, we dug into this a lot in several of my conversations, but like intuitive eating is not just this like, Oh, woo, woo, eat whatever you want, go have pretzels all day, every day.

Like, it, you know, it's not that. And I know, you know, all of that and if you're listening and you're like, well, I don't even know what you're talking about. Go back and listen to the, at least the wrap up episode. If you want to hear some more information on that I'm wondering, you know, I, and again, Maybe this isn't fair.

I know it does vary for the men, but you know, just my anecdotal experience. Cause when I'm out and I'm with my husband's coworkers or what, you know, it's like, what do you do? And so I'll talk about personal trainer, which anytime I say I'm a personal trainer, they're like, it turns into confession, right?

Like

Jeff Ash: Yeah,

Amy Connell: I, you know, I've never, I haven't been to the gym forever and all of this kind of stuff. But they're really, it seems like there's just more of the obsession and less nuance. And so I'm [00:37:00] wondering. How, with the men in our lives, we can maybe encourage, you know, the awareness of things, but not have it triggering into some sort of obsession.

Which I know is a really big question, but maybe you can break it down for us.

Jeff Ash: yeah it it is it's really hard to do that because has it's it's it's to be a personality kind of a trait too and then it's encouraged so you have of men and I mean women too, but for the sake of our conversation about men, you got a lot of men who Who think very black and white about everything their job, you know, maybe they're an engineer.

That's

Amy Connell: Hmm,

Jeff Ash: my

Amy Connell: hmm. Hmm, hmm. Hmm,

Jeff Ash: which is an odd mix to be a software engineer and a intuitive eating coach, but but think in a very black and white and it's very easy for me too in my own training and everything With my climbing and stuff to fall into that habit of [00:38:00] trying to optimize things too much and to and to Think about things in a very black and white way So I have to always remind myself that no that I this is there's a lot of leeway here on what how I can approach this particular situation and so, Yeah, it's, it, that, that black and white thinking can be Challenging because like I said, it's kind of it may be a natural thing and then it doesn't help the fact that a lot of men Talk in those black and white ways to each other so that it's being reinforced so I know what i'm what i'm trying to do in these groups I'm involved in is whenever there's an opportunity where I can jump in is to approach it from to ask different questions.

So for example, somebody asked a question about losing they need to lose I pretty substantial amount of weight by November 3rd or something. And I was like, okay, it sounds to me, I've heard that question asked before when it was somebody who was getting ready to go in the military [00:39:00] they had a military thing come up where every two years they have to They

Amy Connell: hmm.

Jeff Ash: and measured or else they get penalties and they could even get kicked out and stuff like that.

So it's like, get some clarification there, because if it is a military thing, that's a whole different thing. Then you have to decide, is it worth it? Not, you know, you got to decide for yourself if you're going to push yourself. And then, no, he just didn't want to go into the fall with a big belly. Okay, so now we have this thing, this arbitrary date, this arbitrary amount of weight. it was all. because of just didn't want to go in with a big belly. So I listened to where he's coming from. He's, he's still caught up on losing weight. So I did not say I did not come at him with the whole weight, neutral body acceptance and this kind of thing. It was more, think about you're doing here as far as this amount of weight that you think you're going to try and lose and it's not a very Reasonable amount is certainly [00:40:00] not sustainable by any stretch so you know, I said basically think about some of the changes that that maybe are very obvious that you could make that would improve your health and sort of Redirected and after that several people said this was a great response, you know there was a lot more to my response than that, but Several other people kind of reinforced that idea that it And while most of the responses were, yeah, go for it, dude, make it happen, you know, push, push through, you know, all

Amy Connell: Ha, ha.

Jeff Ash: that the more conversations that we can have. The more it's going to Change some of that that way of thinking and getting away from the black and white and that's really the you know It's a spouse that even if you have another, you know Even if your husband is still caught up in wanting to do all of the optimizing and stuff just dropping some of those little pebbles I taught a presentation a while back for [00:41:00] a christian and of the things that I suggested was a pebble in the shoe and I picked that up from an apologetics ministry that I've Followed for years where it's just you're not trying to convince them of something or change something Completely all at one shot.

It's giving them something to chew on that's going to annoy them Period. It's going to pop up in their head now and then, kind of like if you have a pebble in your shoe, it's not constantly bothering you, but when it shifts, you're like, and so that kind of idea. And so I think that's one way that you can get people to move away from that black and white thinking is to just intentionally find things that you can, that you think might resonate with that person rather than expecting them to change overnight.

Amy Connell: Yeah, that's good wisdom. I love that Pebble in the shoe.

Jeff Ash: Mm

Amy Connell: Okay, so Jeff, one of the, do you do coaching? So if someone's like, oh my, my husband could use, or you know, my son, my adult son, something like that. You do coaching. Okay.

Jeff Ash: Yeah. I've I'll work with [00:42:00] teenagers depending on what's going on with the situation.

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: Adult, yeah, adult men

Amy Connell: Awesome.

Jeff Ash: So,

Amy Connell: Okay, and then the other thing that I, that you have that I think is very interesting, I would love if you can tell us about it, is your app called the Non-Diet Companion. Tell us more about this.

Jeff Ash: Yeah. So it's a, it's an app that I developed a while back and and it is designed as kind of a, a journaling thing. It has a number of different prompts and types of journals that you can journal templates basically in there that have different journal prompts that you can respond to inside the app and different categories and that kind of a thing.

And it has like a hunger and fullness scale part in there where you can you can log. Your hunger and fullness reflections in there. So it's not it it's not a food tracking app Like my fitness pal or something like that. It's it's more For those people who still like [00:43:00] to either journal or log some things that they can then reflect on and go back to it's really helpful with that And it also allows you to track your your Physical activity in a couple of different ways.

One is detailed workout tracking where you can track your sets and reps and the weight and all of that kind of stuff. Not body weight, weight lifted. It

Amy Connell: Sure.

Jeff Ash: have a body weight tracker. And then it also then there's another way where you can track it more of like a reflection type of a thing.

So you, instead of tracking all of the details, you might track how you felt and how the workout felt and what you might like to change next time. And you might put in there how much weight you lifted on something, but it's not, it, it allows you to do that in a way that doesn't, turn into kind of an obsession, which can happen for some people.

So that's the gist of, of the app. And and yeah. So. For some people they find that real helpful to be able to to journal in there and have access to it inside the app and on the On the [00:44:00] website and and that kind of a thing you know, and some people just like to write in a notebook. They like the feel of paper And so there's just all kinds of different ways that people like to of keep track of what they're doing And in journaling and reflecting and and it's just one of those tools that for some people can be really helpful

Amy Connell: And I think that points to what we were talking about earlier with awareness. So sometimes just, just taking a minute to kind of think about like, okay, well, how did this make me feel or whatever it is and writing it down? I mean, obviously there's, we're seeing so much science come out of the power of, Recognizing our thoughts and, and putting them out there, whether it's through a pen and paper or an app or something like that.

So I love that. Where can people get the app if they're interested in it?

Jeff Ash: Yeah, it's available on for iOS and Android. And so you just search for non diet companion,

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: at the app stores. And yeah, you can download it there. [00:45:00] And

Amy Connell: Sounds good.

Jeff Ash: yeah.

Amy Connell: Awesome. Jeff, tell people how they can connect with you if they're interested in working with you.

Jeff Ash: Yeah, so you can reach me through my Instagram. Account, which is intuitive. eating. min and you can send me a direct message there and or you can email me at Hope drives me coaching at gmail. com

Amy Connell: Okay, so.

Jeff Ash: that yeah, so you can contact me that way and I'm

Amy Connell: All right.

Jeff Ash: I'd love to, I, I offer a free initial consultation, so it's not a, I know some coaches offer like a 15 minute discovery call.

I actually give you an hour. So you get a totally free, no obligation hour. So if you want to use it to out if we'd work well together and then work together long term, or if you just want to use it to ask a few questions about how to get started, we're then happy to do that too. So if anybody's interested in that, and it's certainly while I do Primarily work with men you are a woman and you're listening and you'd like to talk to me about how to help The man in your life who may not be open to it.

That's also something that [00:46:00] that Has been helpful for some people as well so i've done some of those even just one off calls like that where Where we get together and just kind of brainstorm some ideas based on kind of the the person's particular background. So I have a background as a children's pastor and worship leader and those kinds of things as well as, as this.

So I'm able to bring that into, so I was like working, I don't just work with Christians, but I was like when I do because then we can bring in all the, the spiritual

Amy Connell: full language. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. You wear a lot of hats. That's really impressive. And that's also really generous to give a full hour of a consult. So thank you for that. Okay. I've got a couple of questions that I ask all my guests. One of them is I love learning about people's tattoos because I have found when people decide to put something on their body for the rest of their lives, they often have meaning behind it.

So I was wondering if you have any, if you'd be willing to share and if you don't, but you had to get one, what would it be and where would it go? Oh,

Jeff Ash: Yeah, that's a good question. So I don't have [00:47:00] any tattoos and I've gone back and forth. And I don't I really don't know what I would end up getting Because I'd want something that was meaningful, but it's so yeah, it's just so hard to come up with something You know,

Amy Connell: it's so permanent.

Jeff Ash: eight tattoos.

Amy Connell: Okay.

Jeff Ash: funny. My wife's got, you know, big ones on her back and her ankle and okay. So yeah, it's it's interesting how how she's got the tattoos and I don't but yeah, so Yeah, I honestly couldn't tell you what i'd put on. I'd just have to be Something in the moment. Maybe maybe i'd match something with my wife or something

Amy Connell: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, for whatever it's worth, I've been asking this question for over four years and I think I finally figured out what I would do, so it's okay if you don't know immediately. It took a long time. Do you have a meaningful Bible verse that you would like to share?

Jeff Ash: Yeah, and in fact, I almost jumped in with it earlier because we were talking, and I thought, well, this kind of goes right along when you were talking about the passage. So my first wife passed away in 2010. Kind

Amy Connell: [00:48:00] Hmm. I'm sorry.

Jeff Ash: that was a, that was my moment of changing from the pull yourself up by your bootstraps and suck it up mentality about depression, anxiety, mental health things. that was where I kind of learned, Oh wow, it's not quite that easy. So I ended up going to a counselor and I used to be one of those very, very much against that kind of thing. And one of the things that my counselor had me. Listen to was a sermon and it covered Psalm 42 and but specifically the part of some if you're just as a refresher.

It's the one that says as a deer pants for streams of water. So my soul pants for you my God. My soul thirsts for God for the living God. Where can I go and meet with God? My tears have been my food day and night while people say to me all day long. Where's your God? These things I remember as I pour out my soul how I used to go to the house of God under the protection of the mighty one with shouts of joy and praise among the festive throng [00:49:00] then Finally it jumps into why my soul are you downcast?

Why so disturbed within me put your hope in God for I will yet praise him my savior and my God So it was the, the focus of that was on this idea that we have this constant conversation going on in our, with ourselves 24 hours a day, and that often directing that conversation, back to the things of God and the truth of things, you know, in this one, it's, you know, what this, the psalmist is saying, why are you downcast my soul?

Why are you disturbed? Put your hope in God. You know, so he's basically coaching himself back. Into the truth of what what's really happening there. And so I, I thought that was just been a really helpful passage for me

Amy Connell: Yeah,

Jeff Ash: think it's something that can really be helpful for people adopting a non diet approach is that reminding yourself that my body is not an object.

My body is not just for looking at my body is able to do these things and look how strong I [00:50:00] like just these conversations that we have. And, you know, sometimes Affirmations we see those kinds of things and I think sometimes those can go a little too far where Where we get wrapped up in instead of confessing or like telling ourselves.

I'm a good person, you know that kind of thing I think we can get off track, but I think there's an aspect of that that can be really helpful especially when we're doing something like a non diet approach to our health and

Amy Connell: right, yeah, oh, that's good and Yeah

I'm really sorry, about your wife, that's I'm, especially if that was super unexpected and I, I love that Psalm as well, cause I think it's it's such an invitation for us to recognize the hard. Things that are going on or the you know, the challenges in our own head, and still point to Christ or, you know, obviously it's not in the Psalms.

That wasn't, you know what I mean? But, but, and, and still stay focused on Jesus, I guess is a better way of saying [00:51:00] it. Okay. I'm going to let you have the last word. What is the one simple thing you would like us to remember about this conversation, big or small, but just boil it down to one simple thing.

Jeff Ash: Oh, wow Yeah, so just understand that men and women do tend to think differently But that men do have a lot of the same kinds of issues. They just manifest differently, so we still have those body image issues and So don't take it for granted that your husband or your son is okay If there are some behaviors, some ideas that they're talking about, there's you know, if, if it looks, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it might be a duck.

You know, men engage in a lot of disordered eating behaviors also, and it may not be an eating disorder, but at the same time it could lead to things that I mean, binge eating is something that's so common right now, and, and it's all rooted in that [00:52:00] so many cases, it's not always, but in so many cases, it's rooted in these disordered behaviors that lead to and progress to that. And a lot of times it can be, it can be. off if you catch it early and just address it head on that. Hey, this isn't Necessary. This isn't something that's beneficial to you may be another way to get to the ultimate goal that you have of being healthy and being strong and being there For your family long term that don't involve going these crazy routes that these guys are often encouraged to go down

Amy Connell: Yeah, very true. Okay, that is all for today. Go out there and have a graced day.