Alehouse Haunts: Where History and Ghosts Collide with Lorien Jones

Speaker A: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. Before we introduce today's podcast or guest, if you like this podcast, please consider leaving a review. It costs nothing, but it helps share news of the podcast and guests I feature with others interested within the paranormal. It's a simple and easy way to help the podcast continue to grow and be a space for people to chat and come together. If you haven't already found us on the Haunted History Chronicles website, Instagram, Facebook or Twitter, you can find links to all social media pages in any of the notes for an episode. Come and join us to get involved and gain access to additional blogs, news and updates. And now let's get started introducing today's episode into the world of some of the UK's oldest pubs with Lorian Jones from Ale House Haunts. As she regales us with the reports and accounts of historic buildings that carry centuries of stories, secrets and spectral whispers that have been handed down through generations, weaving them into the very essence of the establishment. The Haunted Pubs of the United Kingdom offer a captivating blend of history, folklore and the paranormal. So gather your courage, raise a glass, and prepare for a haunting adventure with Lorian as she transports us to some of these hallowed locations, boasting otherworldly inhabitants and phenomena.

Speaker B: Hi Lorian. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker C: Hi.

Speaker B: You want to just start by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Speaker C: I have been kind of working within the paranormal since 2013, which is when I started my website, The Ghost Book. I I first started investigating I think I went on my first public kind of ghost hunt in 2006 at Alton Towers, which kind of started the burg, as it does with many. I'd always had an interest from a young age and I don't know why, to be honest. A lot of people have stories where they see like, a past relative in a room or have a spooky old lady who haunts a house. I never had any of that, but I always have the interest, which kind of intrigues me more. Anyway, so fast forward through all that started The Ghost Book, which was writing about haunted places, and I used to advertise events, ghost hunt events, for the various companies that were operating back then. There was a lot fewer than there are now. And that grew and grew until it kind of it wasn't holding my interest as much anymore. And I kind of thought, what do I need to focus on to kind of maintain my passion? And it was pubs I realized, well, didn't kind of realize I always knew I'd loved pubs more than just the social aspect and meeting up with friends and things. And so, in 2020 of all years, when all the pubs were shut, I decided to start my new venture, which is called Ale House Haunts, which is just looking at the history and the hauntings of all the pubs that we have predominantly in England, because obviously I live in England and they're more accessible. But we will be branching out into Scotland, Ireland and Wales as well. Yeah. So I started up a website for Ale House haunts as well, which I've kind of put on hold for now, whilst I focus on other projects. So I started writing a book which is looking at the history and the hauntings of our pubs. So why they are so haunted, what history do they have that's made them one of our most haunted recognized buildings? And then, yeah, the little projects will come along as part of that.

Speaker B: I think there's something very quintessentially English about the haunted pub. I mean, we really are very well known for them. In some places, you can't go more than a few feet before you get another, oh, this is the most haunted pub in England, definitely for a different reason. I mean, they really are dotted all over the place. What would you say is the kind of the magical quality of the pub and why it is something that intrigues so many of us for its stories and its ghost law and its hauntings?

Speaker C: I think the history, obviously, like you say, there's so many which claim to be the most haunted, claim to be the eldest, and over that course of time, you've got a lot of people. I always imagine the different fashions of people like the pole dark types swaggering in their tricon hats and long cloaks, or the Victorian shoes tapping across the old tiles on the floor and all that history. But also the reasons that we visit the pub. The social aspect, I think, is what makes it so important to us. And if you're sad, you might get invited to the pub for a drink to cheer you up, chat with friends. If you're just out socializing on a Saturday night, you go to the pub. If you are the type who might conduct an assorted affair, you might have a sneaky drink in a quiet country pub. There's so many reasons that we visit these pubs and the social importance of them, I think it makes them a place like no other.

Speaker B: I think that's absolutely right. They are the heart of the community in so many ways, aren't they? And can often be the bit that's overlooked. But they're there for almost every aspect of human life, from births, marriages, celebrations, death.

Speaker C: That's it.

Speaker B: Gatherings, family moments, moments with friends, and that's something that's timeless. Those are the same things that have been there for hundreds of years and that's where, in some cases, they are centuries old and the changes that they've gone through along that period is just quite staggering. You mentioned that you are in the process of writing a book and I know that it's certainly something I am incredibly excited to get my hands on. Because I think pubs are just magical places. And having grown up in a pub when I was younger, there's just something very atmospheric and special about them. And they do have such an incredible history in itself. But then all these stories of ghosts and everything is just another layer of interest and intrigue. So your book is one that I am eagerly anticipating, and I know that one of the things that you've been looking at are the different types of kind of tropes that exist around pubs and inns and the kinds of stories that they evoke. Do you want to just kind of take us through some of those different types of ghost lore and ghost stories that become associated with our pubs over here in England and Scotland, et cetera?

Speaker C: Absolutely, yes. So I've kind of segmented the book into elements of haunting factors, so to speak. So it starts off with looking at the history of alcohol and how pubs came about, and then it looks at the buildings themselves and the building materials, how that can affect a haunting. What if the building had previous usage, which so many did? And then I go on to look at the people who spent time in the pub, which I think is the majority of the book. So it's kind of I've broken it down into areas such as landlords and barmaids and landladys as well. Then you've got kind of the monastic side to pubs, which a lot of people don't realize. The monastic history associated with pubs and basically the foundation to a lot of our pubs came from monastic buildings and monks. You've got elements like sailors, soldiers, highway men, prostitutes, and then even the standard patrons are said to haunt some pubs. There are reports of an old guy passing away and then people see him sitting in his regular seat after he's gone to get your teeth into these sections and trying to find not trying to find the examples, but try to minimize the examples that I want to use because it's just endless. It's taken time to try and pick which ones to include, really, you fully.

Speaker B: Understand and kind of port why there are stories of people frequenting their favorite local pub once they pass away. Because again, I just think it is part of who we are, really. It's us, it's our community. And so there's something really very heartwarming in a lot of the stories that get told up and down the country about our pubs and the stories of ghosts. They can be really heartwarming and varied. Like you said, there's elements of history that people just aren't aware of that often then come through in some of that ghost law as well, one of which is the monastic element that many of these locations started out as something very different. These were places that were used as resting places, stopping places that were supported by monks. And most people would never think that and associate that with a pub because of the type of trade, alcohol, et cetera. But that's where many of our locations kind of started from those very humble beginnings.

Speaker C: Yeah. So there was a time when most of the travelers, people didn't travel for business or for pleasure. They were either soldiers or pilgrims. So the monks would have what they refer to then as a hospician or hospice, which isn't along the same terms as we use today. And it was basically a resting place, like you say, for pilgrims who would be traveling to visit historic monuments such as cathedrals, abbeys and the likes. And they needed somewhere to rest. If you were of a higher religious status, you would perhaps stay in the abbeys and the big establishments. If you were a bit more lowly, you would end up in one of these hospices. And so, yeah, also the monasteries had a lot more room to produce ale, which they then provided. There were different qualities of their ale. So much they would give away to the poor, so much they would serve in their hospices, and so much they kept they kept for themselves, which I always kind of have a smirk about because I think I know which went where. Yeah. But then it was during the dissolution of the monasteries, when Henry VI was obviously destroying all these religious buildings, that these Auspicious had to survive, they had to adapt. So many of them changed their names. Some of them still had religious kind of connotations, like the cross keys relate to, I think, is it St. Peter who's on the gates of heaven? Apologies if I've got him wrong, but they kind of maintained a religious nod without being blatant. But, yeah, so then they became an in as opposed to a religious resting place. And by this point as well, people were traveling more for business and for pleasure and for everyday travel. So they provided a place to stay. And that kind of boosted that whole side of our society and the way we lived, because there were places, if you wanted to go somewhere, there was now a place you could go and stay. So a lot of the old inns were actually religious buildings.

Speaker B: Again, I think it's that kind of understanding of where these buildings have come from, really understanding that past and some of that history, because I do think history and hauntings go hand in hand. And I think if you know more about the building and its usage and the kind of the pedigree, the different people that have been through those gates, through those doors, some of the experiences that have happened, changes just in how pubs operated and some of the challenges that were faced along that way. It's kind of important, then, to kind of unpick some of the ghost law, because one of the downsides, I think, when it comes to reports about ghost law is there can be so much misinformation that when you then go and you start looking it up, you realize that's just an impossibility. You've got the dates completely wrong for you to start saying this is a haunted pub that's frequented by a particularly famous highwayman, for example, completely out of order in terms of the real history. And that's where you do have to have an element of understanding some of that historical context and doing some of that research to really start to piece together fact from fiction and getting that story accurate.

Speaker C: I definitely agree, but it's very tricky as well, especially with pubs which perhaps don't have the records that other historic buildings do have and it's been a sticking point of mine. Well, not so much now, but certainly when I started the book I found myself dismissing a lot of stories because I couldn't find any factual basis for them, any historical records or anything. And I thought, well I'm not going to include that because I can't prove it. And then I thought to myself, well, if we discount in all these things that may have passed on through word of mouth over all this time and these stories have survived, then maybe there is an element of truth to them and therefore we should not just lightly dismiss them because we can't prove it, because then we're discounting half of our history. Really? But then, on the other hand, it's amazing when you do find a little snippet in the newspaper archives, which is kind of my place to go for pub research, because the newspaper records and articles kind of is the best place, I find to document things that did actually happen in pubs that they were reported on, as opposed to documented, because they weren't of any kind of historical importance to be documented as such. And yet the newspaper reported it at the time. So that's my place to go. And when you find a little snippet that does kind of back up one of these old hearsay stories that just adds the extra element. But I'm trying not to be so dismissive with things that are just perhaps could be hearsay, could have an element of truth, could have been twisted over time with Chinese whispers, you know how it goes. It's a bit of a tangle trying to sort through these things and not dismiss them at the same time.

Speaker B: I also think just touching on what you were talking about just then, it's that kind of lack of recording in the same kind of way that an older property with a kind of particular type of property that has that kind of status, if you like. If we're thinking about our castles and our halls and our manor houses, they have an awful lot of public funding support, there's been a lot of record keeping when it comes to land use for those types of locations and money transferred ownership deeds, titles. I mean, so many different things that are kind of recorded and maintained in a way that the local pub just doesn't get that same kind of attention.

Speaker C: And the thing is, with the censuses, they obviously a family would quite likely have owned or lived in a hall, for example, or a castle, maybe not so much castles, but certainly halls for a long period of time, whereas the turnover for a landlord in a pub was a lot more frequent than that. So looking at one census to the next, you can be missing a whole chunk of history there that you're not going to find anywhere else, really.

Speaker B: And it's partly why I think it's so sad that there isn't that kind of same kind of looking at a pub in the same way that castles and mansions and manor halls and all these other types of very historic buildings that we have. The pub seems to be overlooked as not quite having that same sense of status. And it's not true. Their history is just as long, just as important. And I think it's so sad when we see the number of inns and pubs up and down the country starting to close because of the pandemic and post the pandemic, they've been hit particularly hard. And these are buildings with like we've been talking about, such a rich tapestry of experiences and moments that are sadly starting to be forgotten and lost because their doors are closing, they're literally closing up. And that's just heartbreaking, I think.

Speaker C: Absolutely, I completely agree. And it's awful. And there's not a lot that can be done about it, sadly, especially at this time, but especially, I mean, closing and preserving of buildings and having them turn into something else, at least they still exist, even if we can't enjoy them as they once were. But it's the demolition of buildings, especially like with the Punch Bowl in in Ribble Valley, which was done illegally. And I just think, God, how people can be so careless. And that frustrates me more than the pubs just having to close, which is obviously understandably tragic. And I've read cases of landlords who are distraught that they're having to choose this route, that they just can't afford to carry on anymore. But hopefully in those kind of cases, there was a pub, I forget the name of it now that I've written about in the book, which was when I was researching it. It was closed, but the locals were petitioning to get it reopened and trying to raise the money to self fund it themselves, which I think is such a dream. But also, if they're still standing, you've got that option of them opening up again. There may be they're closed for 20 years or so, but there's life in them still to be had. Whereas best not to get me started on the demolitions.

Speaker B: But this is where I think if we keep exploring the stories that these buildings in our community have, we keep exploring the Ghost Law that they have. If we keep talking about them, if we keep using them, that's where we keep them alive, that's where we can keep them going. Because it's those stories, it's everything about them that we just don't want to lose. And this is where I think what you're doing, what you've been doing is an important aspect of that because it's sharing them with other people. It's getting that interest and that intrigue and that discussion around them so that someone who maybe has an interest in a connection with shipping, sailing, that kind of aspect of history, it can maybe find some new locations that they've never realized before, that has that connection for someone who's interested in highwaymen and those kinds of stories. You can maybe find a different pub that you can go and look at and see, actually. This is where you have this story about this person and this event happening and this character being part of the bricks and mortar just on that local front of, well, here's my local and these are the ghost stories reported about them here type thing so important not to lose. It keeps them going, it keeps that intrigue in that talking point about them really very much in the forefront of people's minds.

Speaker C: I think I had a similar quandary when I was writing the book about a pub that had been demolished and I turned to my little group on Facebook to ask opinions, really, and I said, right, I found this amazing pub and it relates to the section on jibbets and executions outside pubs. And I said, It's got the history, it's got the stories, but it's been demolished. Would you like to read about these pubs that are no longer there, or should I not include them and just opt for pubs which you can still visit? And the resounding opinion was, no, include them. And I think it's kind of the same way that we talk about our dead and the historical characters from history. These pubs deserve to be remembered, even though it wasn't their choice that they're not here anymore. So we should remember them and their stories and still appreciate them, even though they have gone and there's no chance that they'll be brought back, then we should still tell the stories.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So do you have a particular type of ghost trope or Ghost Law ghost story that always was something that you found really intriguing? Mystifying something that you've enjoyed researching, was there kind of one of those aspects that just stood out more than the rest?

Speaker C: Always. For me, it's the piracy and the smuggling. Since a very young age and a family holiday down to Cornwall, my dad had taken himself off for a pint to the local pub up the lane. And I remember my mum telling me and my sister about obviously joking and we weren't going to make her sound like a bad pirate. Now she was joking saying, I hope dad doesn't bump into the pirates on the way home. And rather than being scared, we were just massively intrigued. And from there on out, I've just been fascinated with pirates and smuggling. So, yeah, that's a favorite of mine. And whenever I read that kind of background story to a pub, I'm there, I'm involved. It's got 100% of my attention.

Speaker B: Well, it's kind of got everything in it, hasn't it? You've got that sense of danger, you've got that sense of adventure underground. I mean, it really is I mean, it's a best selling novel, really, isn't it?

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: But this is what we have to remember and realize. These are the types of stories that some of these locations have something really very different and clandestine and dangerous. You just don't know. You really don't know until you start exploring what may have happened in your local pub.

Speaker C: Yeah. And in the introduction to my book, I say that you go to the pub to meet friends, predominantly. How often you'd go to a castle and look at the castle, wouldn't you? But how often do you go to a pub and have a look at the pub or consider the history, like whose feet have walked across the floor or who's stooped to stoke the fire and the murder or the bloodshed, even just the fisticups and fights that have happened in there. It's all left a trace. And I think we're kind of perhaps guilty of going for a pint and not even considering the places that we're drinking in and all that they've seen in their past.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I completely agree. And I think that's a perfect way of kind of thinking about it. I think we become oblivious to what may have happened in there. We're just focused on what we're doing. We're enjoying ourselves, but we're not actually taking in the atmosphere, we're not taking in the building.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I'm not as guilty of not taking paying attention, obviously. I'll nip off to the toilet and everyone will wonder where I've gone when I'm down some corridor or I've just found this really cool bar tucked away at the back. I will go off exploring and looking for treasures and locked doors. I can try the handles just to.

Speaker B: See where it goes and where it leaves. So do you have any locations that you kind of want to tell us about as part of the episode today? A pub that you think this is just something that you have to know about for its history and for its ghost law that you think is something special and memorable to share?

Speaker C: Definitely, yeah. So if you're aware of me and my ale house haunts Venture, as well as my writing for the Haunted magazine, then you'll know that my I mean, I'll go so far as to say is my favorite pub is the Prospect of Whitby, which is in Whopping in London. So you've got the prospect of whitby. And along the road is another pub, the town of Ramsgate. Now, these pubs are on what is known as Execution Dock. Obviously the executions don't take place anymore, but the bank of the Thames, which ran between these two pubs, was a place of execution for those who'd been condemned of sea crimes. The exact location of where these hangings took place isn't known, although some believe it was behind the town of Ramsgate, whereas behind the Prospect of Whitby you have a makeshift noose on a little gallo, which is quite fun. Obviously not original, it's just a nod to the history. So somewhere along there is where pirates and the likes would have met their end. And both pubs have got amazing history, which I'll go through, but for me, the prospect of whitby just trumps it slightly because once you walk into the pub, you see the wooden bars with the brass tops, the wooden walls, you just feel like you've walked into an old pirate ship. It just creaks and it smells and it's just not in a bad way, in a good puppy way, and you just feel like you've walked back into time. And there was, sadly, a devastating fire in the 17 hundreds which destroyed most of the building. The flagstone floor which you'll walk into, walk onto, sorry, once you walk in, that is original from the 15 hundreds. The rest was rebuilt in the 17 hundreds and the pub claims to be the London's oldest riverside pub, which obviously depends on whether you take into account the fire. So it was originally known as the Pelican back in the 15 hundreds and then during like the 16 into the 17 hundreds, it had a very bad reputation and it became known as the Devil's Tavern. It was overrun with pirates and prostitutes and sailors and it wasn't really a place most people would have wanted to have frequented. I personally would have loved to have had a snoop around in a pub like that in those times, but, yeah, so it had a dark, dirty reputation and it's supposedly haunted by Judge Jeffries, known as the hanging judge, who was responsible for a lot of executions during the 16 hundreds. Obviously he was notorious, he was very cruel and seemed to take pleasure in making an example of people. And so he is kind of looked upon as one of history's bad guys. He lived nearby and would have overseen a lot of the executions that took place. And it's said that he even had a favorite seat in the Prospect of Whitby, where he would watch out the window and watch the executions taking place. Now, that kind of kind of gives a nod to the fact that maybe they were outside this pub as opposed to the town of Ramsgate. And I mean, what's not to say that perhaps they moved along the river, they could have had different execution spots so they could have happened outside either. But the thing that I like as well about these two pubs is that the pirates or other sea criminals would have had their last drink here before being taken to their execution. So back in those days, in the 1617, hundreds most people were held. Criminals were held in Newgate Prison and then taken to execution, if that were to be their fate. At Tyburn, which was the main hanging place of London, which is where Marble Arches now, and I believe I forget the exact figures, but something like 700 people a year were executed there over the course of about 200 years. I might have got those figures wrong, but it's a ridiculous amount of people for those that were convicted of a sea crime, they were held at Marshall Sea Prison and then they were taken to Execution Dock to be executed. They were allowed a drink in the prospect of Whitby or the town of Ramsgate before they went to their execution. They were then led down both pubs have got a little alleyway down the side of the pubs and they were taken, whichever or both it may have been, were taken down here onto the banks of the Thames, where they were hanged. Now, most people, most criminals were hanged at gallows and they were suspended on, say, like a horse and cart, for example, or on a ladder, and they would have had a long rope and the drop would have usually broken their neck, the rope being long enough. Pirates, because they were so troublesome and they wanted to be made not that other criminals weren't troublesome, but they really tried to make an example out of pirates. So their execution was a lot more grizzly. So they had a short rope on a small gallows where they climbed a ladder, had the rope tied over their neck, the noose placed over their neck, and then the way that they were dropped was, it was called turning the prisoner off. So basically, the ladder was just kicked from their feet. So there was no drop, there was no quick death. They basically strangled and did what was known as the Marshall Seed Dance. And to set further example, they were then left outside, which would have been these two pubs or one or the other for three high tides of the Thames. So they would have been quite gruesome, bloated, covered in goodness knows what, sea creatures and things eating them. By the time those three high tides had passed from there, they were then either buried somewhere the notorious, the ones they really wanted to make an example of, such as Captain Kidd, who was executed at the back. He was tarred and taken down to Tilbury Point in Essex on the Thames, and he was actually hanged jibbeted there for three years as a warning to everyone coming in via the on the ships to just to not be a pirate. Basically, he was one. Of the first privateers who was condemned for piracy. So he was made a big example of. So you've got all that history and then in a turn of fate, Judge Jeffries, who was very in favor with James II during the Glorious Revolution james II had fled when William of Orange was coming over to take the throne. And Judge Jeffries, being very disliked in the country, decided to follow him. And he was actually caught on whopping old stairs out the back of the town of Ramsgate dressed as a sailor trying to blend in. And it's reported that he had even shaved his big bushy eyebrows off an attempt to disguise himself. And he was caught just before he tried to board a boat to Hamburg. So that actually happened outside the town of Ramsgate, whereas he is supposed to haunt the prospect of Whitby and Captain Kidd is supposedly haunting the town of Ramsgate. So I think the pair of that, they do come as a pair in my mind, although the prospect of Whitby, I say, like I say, does trumpet. They do have so much history and including such important figures in our history and they just have it all. For me, I think it's quite chilling.

Speaker B: It's very dark. It's not what someone would expect sitting down, having their pipe really, is it?

Speaker C: No. In a lovely trendy London, it's got the old, what you call them, the old kind of docking warehouses and things, and a lot of them have been turned into flats now and it's by the wharf, I forget the name of the wharf that's there now. Is it Catherine's Wharf? Yeah, it's a lovely, lovely area. But then this history, you could easily just go about your day and be completely unaware of it. If you go into the especially the prospect of Whitby, there are things on the wall to read about the piracy and the plotting and things that went on in these upstairs rooms away from the prior knives of the public and things. And you can easily, for me, anyway, just visit this pub. The last time I was there, it just absolutely poured with rain and it was just so cozy. And I think on a day like that you can appreciate the history even more. It just seems to bring it to life a little bit more.

Speaker B: It's the color, it's the richness, like you said. It's the sounds that they create, it's the colors that you see, it's the warmth that they feed. It's all of that really something just different about them. Very special and different.

Speaker C: Yeah, completely. And the prospect of Whitby as well is also haunted by a molecup purse, which was a female thief who dressed as gentle gentlemen, a man breeches, not posh, and she would cut the coin purses off of drunk men. Basically, that's how she made her money. And there's meant to be one of these haunting in the prospect of Whitby as well, and she's seen sitting in dark corners smoking a pipe. And I just think that just adds to the whole. Like you say, it's kind of romanticized and it obviously wasn't very lovely at the time. But looking back, it's so different to the way we live that it's hard not to just become entangled in the magic of it all, really.

Speaker A: We are about to celebrate hitting our 100th episode of Haunted History Chronicles on the last Friday of April 2023 to say thank you. For the months of May, June and July, there are going to be daily paranormal podcasts available to enjoy on all tiers over on Patreon, as well as the usual additional items available over there. Signing up now will gain you access to these as well as all previous archived content. For as little as one pound, you could be getting hundreds of podcasts to enjoy and more and know that you're contributing and helping the podcast to put out another 100 episodes. You can find the link in the episode Description Notes as well as on the Haunted History Chronicles website, along with other simple and great ways to support the podcast directly. It's all truly very much appreciated. And now let's head back to the podcast.

Speaker B: But it's the character that these locations have and the colorful characters that they've seen. I mean, just imagine that story and that person in in itself. Someone stealing people's coin by cutting their wallet effectively from them. It's just something that you could imagine, you couldn't picture. But it does conjure up so many questions and so many thoughts about who that person was, what their life was like, how they did it, how brazen they would have to be to do something like that and to be able to get away with it. I mean, it really does add to the whole feel of a place, doesn't it? To kind of really understand exactly what we were talking about earlier. These were some of the characters, the people who walked across that same floor, who maybe sat in the seat where you're sat. They may have chosen you and sidled up to you to try and rob you. These are the things that you kind of then start to imagine intercondron. And that's where it becomes, I think, really exciting. You really do get to step back into some of that past, some of that history, definitely. And understanding the Ghost Law is one way of, I think, being able to do that, to explore that, really.

Speaker C: But it's like you say as well, the history and the ghosts, they go hand in hand. But I've really found since I've been doing all this research, kind of the ghosts almost. Although the interest will never be lost, they kind of get sidelined for the history, which is obviously kind of the most important element. Because once you have an understanding of this history and you can picture these things more, then I think that gives you a deeper understanding of the ghosts that are said to haunt the place. So, for example, if I say to you, there's a ghost of a monk here or a ghost of a high women, which often are recounted in pubs. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. But once I start to tell you about kind of how high women behaved and their whole demeanor, then when I then tell you, okay, there's a ghost of a high woman who said to stand in the doorway or in the corner of the bedroom like in the Jamaica Inn, then you suddenly have a bit more of an appreciation for that spirit, rather than it just being a ghost and a ghost story.

Speaker B: I think they become very much more real, don't they almost get fleshed out. They no longer feel like something that is ghostly, but actually something very real, something very tangible. And I think it makes it much more relatable. And I think for people maybe who then aren't as interested in paranormal investigating, should we say, just that kind of aspect of history and then connections with some of those stories, I think it adds another type of appreciation for those who maybe are just casually interested in ghost law and ghost history and history in general. But for die hard paranormal enthusiasts as well, it kind of meets a lot of different people's needs and kind of interest and excitement, I think. I think there's that real range of how you might experience a location like a pub, what it has to offer.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think as well, even if you don't have such an interest in the paranormal, just the small little history snippets and did you know, like, this happened in here? Wow. No, it didn't. And you don't even have to be that heavily invested in history to just appreciate the things that have gone before. So I think it really does because we all I mean, can you imagine a world without a pub?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker C: Not what I want to be part of. But we all go to a pub, whether it's like my dad or the guy who lives down the road who's entirely skeptic or an old lady teenagers, we all use the pub. So even to find out little pieces of their history, I think appeals to everybody. Regardless of your depth of interest in a particular area or history or paranormal, it speaks to all of us.

Speaker B: I think it's our cultural past. I think it's the changes and the evolutions of not only the local community, but the wider history, the wider kind of historical backdrop, and they literally played out in these locations. I can think of so many different examples of, you know, people sitting around making plots. I mean, take trying to decide ways to overthrow a king or a queen. You know, these are things that took place often in pups, literally. You have them at the heart of so much of our history, so many of our stories that we know and we love, and it's kind of being mindful of that there's so much more to them that once you start peeling back the layers, what they reveal is just it does it sends shivers down your spine. It's that kind of a revelation, I think, because there is so much history to uncover, literally, to start stripping away, and it's mind blowing the different things that have often taken place in some of these locations. And like we've talked about, the characters that have been involved along the way, the people. I mean, it's just magical. It's really exciting, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's like with the pubs, with, say, soldiers, for example. There's lots of pubs, especially around my area, near the Battle of Navy and things, a lot of pubs that were haunted by Cromwell and they say, oh, this is where he stopped off before this battle, and this is where they planned this battle. So you've got that kind of thing. But then what people don't realize is a lot of times pubs were taken over by soldiers and used as a temporary hospital. With the basements being so cold, the cellars, as well as being used as a morgue in the past countless. I mean, you can Google nearly every old pub and they will have had an inquest held there because it was the place to take the dead body at the time. Before hospitals really became a big thing. But then as well, with the soldiers, they did the same. The Star in in York, they claimed that soldiers during, I think it was the Civil War, took over the basement and you can hear cries of pain from dying soldiers. And then there's the old black bear in Chewkesbury. This is one of my favorite ghost stories, just because it's a proper hiding under your bed, under your duvet with the torch ghost story that's supposed to be haunted by a headless man seen dragging chains. Now, when I looked into this story a bit more, it's believed that during the Battle of Chewsbury in 1471, lancastrians were heavily defeated by the orchests and a lot of them fled and held held out in the church for a little while and then they were taken. But the sick and the injured apparently went to the Black Bear, which has existed since 13 eight. So people report that this headless man is seen in dated clothes, and so he believed that he was a Lancastrian soldier. Now, I think if he'd had his head removed, he probably wouldn't have been carried the distance to be taken to a pub. So I'm not sure where his head went or where the chains have come from, but I just think that kind of gives a bit of a background to where this really scary sounding ghost may have come from and perhaps isn't quite as scary as anticipated. Although I think to see him, I would be quite terrified.

Speaker B: But I think it's making those kinds of connections that actually make it scarier because it's real. It's making a real life connection with something that happened, with events that happened in that region that makes that story not a story, if that makes sense. Because I think we all have ghost stories that we know and we love, that we read, that are fiction, that are kind of stories that we all know are just part of our kind of cultural passing down of a story, kind of a word of mouth type thing. But we know that they're not true. They are just part of the fabric of storytelling, really. But when you have something that really is rooted in fact in some way, may have changed, may have been embellished, things might have been added, it might have evolved that story, that account may have changed over time, just telling it and telling it. But to be able to take it back to the kernels of, well, this is what it's really kind of connecting with, that is the kind of the hairs on the back of your neck moment. Because that real story is in some ways as exciting as the ghost story. They go hand in hand, as we said, but to then tease them apart and examine them side by side is also really quite special and exciting, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I think a lot more chilling as well with regards to basically just our history, how brutal we were. And that's so far removed from how we behave today in a lot of ways. Not always, but that, I think, adds the extra chill element as well. When you realize people did have their head chops off, people did were executed on the battlefield and it was all so gruesome that once you say, right, this ghost is missing his head because of this, like you say, the reality of it is it just adds to it, doesn't it? Adds to the creepiness.

Speaker B: It does. And like you were mentioning, just realizing that many of our local pubs do have this kind of history of the building itself being used for other things. Like you mentioned makeshift morgues here where often inquests were held. Bodies would have been taken and laid out to be examined in many of these locations. That's not something that people really know about or are mindful of. But there are some incredible examples of reports of ghostly apparitions and paranormal activity associated with locations linked to that type of history too. I can think off the top of my head about the bottle and glass in the Black History Museum where it is now. It's one of my favorite buildings. But there is that element of activity there linked to precisely that with tragedies of accidents and then the bodies being taken to that building. Post that for the inquest.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that's a perfect example as well, of stories that are kind of changed over time but that do have the historical basis to them. So for those who don't know the story of the Bottle and Glass and the Black Country Museum, every building in there has been moved from another location and saved, rebuilt brick by brick, in exactly the same way as it would have existed elsewhere, predominantly around in the West Midlands. So the bottling glass existed on the canal bank, further down the canal, further down towards Starbridge, I believe, might have got that wrong. Got so many pubs in my head, it's hard to differentiate them sometimes. And the story that they tell now is that a boy was on a horse and he fell into the cut and drowned, and that the horse was more financially important to those who were rescuing it. So they rescued the horse before the boy and during that time the boy had drowned. I've actually included it in the book and during my research I did find a newspaper article describing a boy who had drowned outside the pub in the canal. The details, I forget his name and the year and things, but it actually happened and he had been on an errand for his mum. The horse wasn't actually ever involved. If this is exactly the same case, which I think it must be, and it was just heavily, heavily foggy and he fell in and he wasn't found, sadly, until the next morning, his body was taken to the Bottle and glass. I believe it had a different name at the time, which has escaped me, but he was left there, which was often the case. If people a body was found after an accident or whatever, it was taken to the local pub and it kind of explains as well the mysterious ghosts. So if it doesn't quite make sense that perhaps a young boy is haunting a pub when there's been no record of a young boy via the family ever living in this particular pub, then you can look at the inquest and think people have that belief that the spirit stays with the body for a short amount of time before passing on. So if that's the case, if this body, especially if it's been recently discovered after death, is then moved on, the first building it sees is the pub, then it's possible that its spirit has remained in that pub. So it does go some way to explaining when you find proof of the examples of why perhaps certain spirits are in certain places.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's just that kind of other element. It's like you were mentioning that explanation possibly about why some of the reports associated with that location come through that don't necessarily make sense at first because it's not something that you can link to maybe the normal footfall, the normal person who would frequent that location. But it's understanding that over its history, these buildings were used for a variety of different things through times of war, through kind of just normal evolutions and changes in terms of how pubs were kind of being used and operated. I mean, so many things along the way that really do play into what you may be experiencing, and it's trying to tease some of that out and understand some of that backdrop to explain what might be happening in the present.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And another example is the four crosses in Canuck in Staffordshire, which is no longer operating as a pub, but for those who are interested in kind of paranormal investigations, you can still visit. And I remember on an event being told that the attic was allegedly haunted by a prisoner, which you might think, well, how did that come about? Why is a pub haunted by a prisoner? Well, prisoners were often transported, especially if they'd committed a crime in a different county. They were sent back to their home county for punishment. So they would be transported usually by horse and cart. And at the time the coaching end, they were called stage coaches because the journey was broken up into stages. It was usually about 10 miles, I think, so the horses needed to rest, et cetera, and travel was a lot slower. The roads weren't in the quality well, I say good quality. Our roads are awful at the minute, but there were nowhere near the roads that we have today. So journeys were broken up, like, for example, the transportation of prisoners. Their journey was broken up and they had to be held somewhere secure. Sometimes it was in a basement. Some pubs still have shackles where prisoners were held temporarily as part of the journey, or like with the four crosses, perhaps in the attic, maybe that was more secure. So things like that, just little insights into the way that we lived, give so much of an explanation for some of these. What initially seemed like mysterious ghosts.

Speaker B: They're never ending, I think, because we have so many of these different types of locations on our doorsteps. And what they have yet to reveal, I think, is part of the exciting part, the exciting part of their story, really.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: It's what we don't yet know, what still is yet to be discovered about so many of them. Little bits of information, nuggets of information that may be squirreled away in some archive somewhere, in a local library, somewhere in an attic somewhere, when you kind of realize that, I don't know, it's the kind of stuff that keeps me awake at night thinking, what else? What other mysteries do they have that could literally become discovered in the next ten years, or in 100 years, someone find out about them?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's what makes it all the more sad, when pubs are closed, or even worse, demolished. Like, there's one near me which was knocked down, I think it was last year, and I decided to include it for reasons I can't remember now. What area of the book it's gone into. But reading through the newspaper archives, one of the stories was of a landlady looking out the window. Obviously that's not happening now because the windows have gone, the whole building has been knocked down. So that was one of the ghost stories. And then when I was researching the ghost stories a little further, there was a quote of a landlady saying that it was her pub and should anyone ever try to damage it or destroy it, she would kill them, which I thought, God, she sounds like a character. And then through the newspaper archives, I discovered that a woman who managed or ran the pub, owned the pub in the early 19 hundreds, for want of a better word, was an absolute horror. And she looked after her nephew, but neglected him and he kept trying to run away and he was brought back time and time again. And then in the end, he ended up in care, because they realized that she wasn't taking care of him as she should. And she had several court appearances for letting her cattle stray on the highway, for serving alcohol out of the allowed hours, and she just really seemed like a piece of work. And then I think I could go past that pub and see if I could see her peeking out the window. But now that it's gone, that whole opportunity has gone with it. And it was sad to kind of discover the history afterwards, after the opportunity to go and visit the place had gone.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's dark and depressing. I think I saw something recently where they were saying that 35,000 pubs in the UK are at risk of closing or have closed in the last year. It's mind blowing, it's truly sad. I mean, I think that was the statistic, but it made me really pause and think about it, because it's something I have thought about a number of times, because I think it was a trade that was so particularly affected, so acutely affected, like restaurants, something that involved hospitality. When you can't do that, it's very difficult. And like you mentioned, when they go, the history that goes with it can be so resonant for the community. It can be so much kind of rooted in the location, the history of the location, the community, that when it goes, it's a part of that community going with it. And that's the bit that we have to be really careful of. And you were just mentioning this one account of this one pub with this woman. There could be so many other places exactly like that, and it's a depressing thought. And again, I think it's something that we can all be part of trying to change. Let's not forget and overlook our local pub.

Speaker C: Exactly. If you go back to the early, early days, you'd be amazed to find out how many pubs actually existed. So a small village could have five pubs and towns, many, many more. How many villages do you go through now? And they don't even have a pub? And I think you kind of realize, oh, this village hasn't well, especially me, because I'm doing the research more heavily aware that villages don't have that pub anymore. And I think it's almost like they've lost their heart or brought that whole village together for a long, long time is gone. And hopefully more often than not, it will be someone's house now, a nice old cottage or whatever. But yeah, the amount that we did have at one point was massively. More than we have now. But yeah, obviously since COVID and now the energy crisis and everything just seems to be a crisis right now. It's very sad. And yeah, if I could have a little slogan, it would save our pubs. Absolutely.

Speaker B: I agree with you. And you were talking about something just a moment ago that I think is still very much true today. These were locations that you had really industrious, hardworking people who really cared about their locations. And I think that is still true today. People really do care about the pub that they run or they manage or they own. And there's so much hard work involved in them. And it's not an easy life because it can be very early hours, it's very late hours, you don't get a lot of sleep in between. It's seven days a week. It's a lot of effort, it's a lot of hard work. And just thinking about some of the history of the pub and the people that have owned them, it always staggers me that often these were places that were run by women whose husbands have passed away and they've taken it on themselves. You kind of end up then with these really colorful stories of these women really strong and kind of holding no nonsense. And hence why you get stories like you were just reporting of someone saying, don't do anything to my pub, or I'll have you type thing. Yeah, there's so many other stories and kind of accounts that I can think of similar types of things with previous inhabitants just making their presence known, of not liking things being done, not liking people enjoying having a sandwich or something to eat in their pub because they didn't think that should happen. Don't like all the new gadgets, the electronic tills and things that now are in their location. All these changes, they come back and say, I'm not sure of this type of a thing.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's prime example. Yeah, a prime example. And I can't remember the name of the pub, which I'll kick myself for, but it's the last Galleried coaching inn in London, I believe. So coaching ins had two types. You had the Galleried type and the I forget the name of the other one. Basically, the Galleried ones had kind of flanks running down the sides of the courtyard which had the bedrooms in. And then when the railways came in, a lot of coaching ins, well, as you can imagine, suffered. And in London, a lot of these coaching ins were being destroyed because there just wasn't the use for them anymore. And the landlady of this particular one fought tooth and nail to have her pub saved. And I think two of the sections were actually destroyed, but one exists. I've got a feeling it's the George, but I think I might have that wrong round southern area. And she was a real stickler for, no, my pub's not going, as you can imagine. And she is said to haunt the pub now, and she's very anti anything that's modern or changing times, and she has said to cause havoc with the tills, the card readers, people's. Cameras don't often work properly in the pub if they want to take photos, and I just think that's a perfect I'd love to meet her in real life. She just seems like such a good character and I'm glad she's still defending her pub from beyond.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's something very comforting, I think, in feeling their presence still, or still knowing and hearing about them, and so still having that connection with how hard and how much they cared. I think one of my favorites is the Levitating Sandwiches account of it's a pub in London, and they just didn't approve of food. This was a place that you drank, they didn't serve food. And so people who try and eat often have their food knocked on the floor. But there was one account of literally sandwiches levitating in the air as she was taking it off the table. It makes you laugh. It makes you giggle, but you don't forget the reason and the person behind it. And I think that's the important thing. That's the bit that makes it special. These stories help us to not forget the past and the person behind that story. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I think that's the key element with pubs as well, is the people. Like I say, when I sectioned up my book into the different areas, it's the people that take up the majority, and that's the heart of the pubs, is the people, regardless of what they were used for or whatever, it's the people that had those uses for them which made that impact on the building. Whether it was if it was a morgue, it was the people who were held there. If it was a prison in the cellars, people were held there. If it was a postal service and the stage coaches coming through, it was those people. The highwayman, whatever it was used for, people are at the heart of that. And that's why you have so many interesting stories, because it's not just something industrial or something, it all just comes down to people. And I think that's why they vary so much, regardless of whether they're concerning landlords or highwaymen or whatever. They've all got their individual stories to tell as well, which just adds so.

Speaker B: Much depth to it all and makes researching it, I think, exciting, but also difficult because there are so many. You could potentially write ten, 1112 books and not scratch the surface. There's such a wealth of difference. And I mean, it's not a bad kind of thing to research, getting to visit them and have a drink in some of them. It's a lot of work.

Speaker C: Yeah. Just going to the pub. Why? I just got to speak to someone about something. Might involve beer, but it's a good excuse. My partner comes home at lunchtime to drop stuff off and he's like, Where are you? I'm just at the pub again.

Speaker B: I think that was a smart move on your part, Laura. So do you have any idea when you're going to be finished with the book? When you're hoping to have it out?

Speaker C: Well, I mean, I say this year I need to give myself a kick up the backside during the summer holidays. Last year I really dropped the ball, obviously having the children home and come the evening, and I just couldn't be bothered to sit and think to write. So I've just kind of come September, I've picked it back up and I've started right from the beginning because I was writing this chapter, and then I jumped to that chapter, and you lose interest a little bit. Like the whole section on brothels, they weren't recorded because they were illegal. So a lot of it's hearsay, and it was hard going, that chapter. So I jumped to something else and then come September, I couldn't remember where I was. So went back to the beginning. I've started editing it chapter by chapter, realizing which ones I need to work on, add more pubs to blah, blah, blah. So I'm kind of about halfway through. But I know some of the latter chapters are some of my favorites, like The Hangings and the Pirates and things. I know that those chapters are already okay, so I don't know, like we say, I've got a lot more projects I've just added to my workload right now.

Speaker B: You're a busy woman.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it will be this year.

Speaker B: I really can't wait. As I say, I just think it's something needed, it's something necessary. And there are an awful lot of books, don't get me wrong, there are an awful lot of books about haunted areas where they might focus on pubs or haunted inns in itself. But I don't know, I can't think of many that are kind of doing what you're doing, which is this kind of overview, this comprehensive look of different types and why they exist and what they're telling us about the history. It seems something very unique and special. And again, I just think it allows us to really understand the changes and the depth of history that some of these locations can have and to understand the variation in the types of reports and accounts. And you're making people aware of that in a way that I think we sometimes we know, but we don't really recognize it. It doesn't sit with us, we don't make that connection. And so having it kind of documented in the way that you're doing, I think, really helps us to understand pubs and their history and the Ghost Law and everything around that, all of those different things in one place, if that makes sense.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think as well, like with the history and I mean, I've got an A level in history, I studied at school. But there's so many elements where, you know, of the Civil War, for example, you know, roughly, kind of when it was or which king was kind of at what era. But then to think like the Tudor House Hotel in Chewkesbury, I think it was, charles I was said to have hidden in a priest hide in the pub. That's just a whole different world to our royalty now, isn't it? Hiding in cupboards in pubs from the enemy and stuff. And once you put him, for example, at that pub, then you think, oh, you might Google a picture of him and then read a little bit about him. And you just have much more of an appreciation for, even if it's just a little small element of history, it just opens your mind up to things that, yeah, you knew a little bit about, but didn't really care much for enough to think about it overly. And when you've been somewhere that that person has been in an environment that's not kind of like a stately home or a castle, where if you were visiting that castle at the time that that King or queen was alive, you probably wouldn't have seen them or got near them. But here they were hiding in this corner of this little pub where you're enjoying a brandy or whatever, then it just makes it more tangible.

Speaker B: Like you say, it's, that realness too. I think, again, it just brings someone alive. It's not someone that you're just simply reading about in a book or as a page you're actually able to appreciate. You can maybe visit that location where they have hidden away or they've spent a night and had something happen or whatever it is. It suddenly makes that person more of a person and I think that's the element to it that's a bit special.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: So I know you've got a busy year ahead and obviously we've mentioned the fact that hopefully your book is coming out. People really do need to kind of read what it does because I think it's something that they will enjoy very much, so but I know you've got so many other things that you're also doing. You are always busy, whether it's writing for Haunted magazine, whether it's carrying out all these other projects. And I know that there are some things that you can't say and so on, but I would say that things like your website following you on social media is really important because there's lots of things that you are doing and in the process of doing that I think are very exciting and people do not want to miss. And so make sure to look Lauren up. I'll put all of her social media pages and everything into the website and onto the podcast description notes and things. Look her up if you're not following her because you don't want to miss out. It's that simple.

Speaker C: Also, I mean, thank you for that. And, yeah, I have got a lot of things coming up which is very exciting, but also I rely on my social media for interaction with people writing a book or any other projects, really. So especially in my Facebook group, Ale House Haunts, people say to me, oh, have you been here? And they'll share a pub with me. And like we were saying, pubs are in decline, but there's so many that I just have never heard of, haven't touched upon. So, yeah, my little community is vital to me and if anybody wants to join in and contribute, then I'm very, very grateful.

Speaker B: It's literally a movement in its own right. It is a movement and it's brilliant. It's a really interactive space that I think actually the people in there come together for the same reason and it's what we've been talking about. Our pubs are part of our community, they're part of who we are and the people in there are all there for that reason. It's somewhere special to them and they've got their own story or something that they remember from their childhood or their favorite pubs that they want to talk about. And like you were saying, Lauren, have you been here? You need to come here. When you can have that kind of buz, that kind of interaction, it's magical and you really don't get that for many other places and other groups. And so, again, you don't want to miss out. You really do need to go and check out some of those things and join if you're interested, because they're a lovely space to be able to come and talk about the local pub, ghost law, history. I mean, it's just a wonderful place to exist.

Speaker C: Yeah, just quickly, like the example of the prospect of Whitby I shared. I made a little video for TikTok and shared it and a friend I know said, oh, my dad used to live near that pub. He was walking back from work, or to work early, kind of out of hours time. It was all dark and quiet all around and he said he heard men singing seashanties coming from the pub when it was all locked up and dark and that little kind of addition to the whole big picture. I wouldn't have had that if we didn't have this kind of social media little team. So I appreciate all of it.

Speaker B: It's brilliant, isn't it? Honestly, thank you so much for your time. We could talk pubs, I think, for the next I still have thousands more to talk.

Speaker C: Definitely.

Speaker B: We're rather lucky here in the UK, I think, for our pubs. So I just appreciate you coming and giving us a tiny, tiny little insight into what you're working on, some of the locations that you explore, some of the things that you're writing about, and it's a little teaser for what's coming later this year.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you for inviting me, honestly.

Speaker B: You are welcome anytime, especially if we're talking pubs. Anything else, you're always welcome. It's always fun to chat with you and I just appreciate the chance to do that for the podcast today. So thank you very much and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everyone.

Speaker A: As we venture into June, you can expect more visits to haunted pubs of paranormal interest with a look at the ancient Ram Inn. You can also journey on the trail of the New England vampire with folklorist and author Dr Michael Bell, as well as listen to a haunting and macabre tale of obsessive love with Ben Harrison. Now, I can't give away all of Jean's secrets, so make sure to keep following and listening, as well as sharing episodes with friends and family.