0:32
Before we dive into the eerie tales of the past, I have some electrifying news to share with you.
I'm excited to announce that the Haunted History Chronicles Podcast now has its very own small shop of the macabre, mysterious Picture this exclusive merchandise hauntingly beautiful artwork, spine tingling, stickers, mugs that will make your morning coffee seem positively paranormal, and prints that capture the ghostly essence of days gone by.
1:04
Whether you're a long time listener of the show or a newcomer drawn to the enigmatic allure of haunted history, the shop is your gateway to the supernatural.
Imagine decorating your space with a piece of history, a connection to the spectral past.
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1:29
You can find all these hair raising treasures on the website or simply follow the links conveniently placed in the podcast description notes.
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1:53
Dive into the past, embrace the spook, and let the stories of history's ghosts haunt your space.
So why not visit the shop today and remember, the spirits of the past are waiting for you.
The Haunted History Chronicles exclusive merchandise is just a click away.
2:14
Happy shopping and may the spirits be with you.
Hi everyone and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles.
First of all, thank you for taking a listen to this episode.
2:30
Before we begin, I just want to throw out a few ways you can get involved and help support the show.
We have a.
Patreon page as well as an Amazon link, so hopefully if you're interested in supporting you can find a way that best suits you.
All of the links for those can either be found in the show notes or over on the website.
2:50
Of course, just continuing to help spread the word of the show on social media, leaving reviews and sharing with friends and family is also a huge help.
So thank you for all that you do.
And now let's get started by introducing today's podcast or guest.
3:11
Welcome fellow history enthusiasts and lovers of the supernatural to another spine chilling episode of Haunted History Chronicles.
Today we embark on a journey that transcends time and space, delving deep into the ancient mysteries of Egypt's haunted past.
3:30
Picture yourself standing at the entrance of an ancient tomb, surrounded by the whispers of the past.
The air is thick with anticipation as we unravel the enigmatic beliefs in ghosts from ancient Egypt.
The afterlife, a paradise where the living could keep.
3:49
Everything lost at death in the fields of eternity comes to life in our exploration.
But beware where the spirits of the past are restless and we are joined by a special guest, a historian and writer from Liverpool here in the United Kingdom, Michelle Keeley Adamson.
4:10
A passionate Egyptologist with the focus on the Victorian era's fascination with ancient Egypt, known as Egyptomania, Michelle is here to guide us through the eerie corridors of history.
As we peel back the layers of time, Michelle will share insights into the enduring Egyptian views on death, where the afterlife was a paradise and ghosts were as real as any other aspect of existence.
4:37
We'll learn about the harmony and balance of Matt, the Central Valley of Egyptian culture, and the profound importance of proper burial for maintaining the cosmic order.
Our journey through the ancient tombs will reveal the complex nature of the soul and explore the haunting stories of spirits.
4:56
Returning to address unresolved issues in the world of the living.
Michelle will shed light on the mystical practices surrounding the deceased, from letters to the dead seeking intercession to the living's pragmatic interactions with Egyptian ghosts, our exploration and promises to be both enlightening and spine tingling.
5:18
Brace yourselves as we descend further into the depths of the past, where the veil between the living and the dead is thin and the secrets of the afterlife await.
Stay tuned for a chilling adventure like no other.
Hi, Michelle.
5:38
Thank you so much for joining me this evening.
Hello nice to nice to chat to you.
The two Michelle's It's going to be quite confusing.
I know, I know.
So it's a good solid name though, isn't it so?
Very solid name, Very solid name, Yeah, I think.
5:54
I don't know if your mum and dad named you for the same reason, but mine was the The Beatles song, so they were avid fans.
Yeah, I think there was an element of that with mine as well.
My mum's middle name was Michelle.
So yeah, I think I got, I got sort of half named after that and half named after The Beatles.
6:13
There, there definitely seems to be kind of around my age and then younger and slightly older.
You know that when it they were really very popular.
A lot of Michelle's, I think.
So yeah, it's always nice to get to chat to a fellow Michelle, especially on the podcast.
It is.
There's not too many of us around these days.
6:29
I think we need to, you know, do a bit of a drive to bring the name back.
It's a good one.
It is, yeah.
It doesn't seem to make the the list.
Does it have the top 100 names in the way that it used to?
Maybe we can start a resurgence.
Let's vote for Michelle.
Yeah, I think so.
6:45
We'll get the, we'll get The Beatles song trends.
And again, it'll be fine.
Yes, definitely.
It's a plan.
We'll get that started.
So do you want to just tell everybody a little bit about yourself and your background and you know, what you do and why you became interested in the topic that we're going to be talking about tonight?
7:02
Really.
Yeah.
OK, so I am a historian and a writer and I did history at university and then went back as a mature student to study Egyptology, which was my sort of lifelong passion.
7:20
It's what I wanted to do since I was a little girl and I really became interested in it because my mum used to take me to the museum like quite quite a lot actually.
We dragged her there most weekends and then after that, you know we go to the library and she'd take out books for me on ancient Egypt and things like that and it just sort of stuck with me.
7:42
And then I, you know, I've done research on ancient Egyptian graves, sort of focus on Egyptomania, the reception of ancient Egypt mostly in the Victorian air, therefore moving up to the modern day as well.
And then I just try and create articles and and stuff on social media that makes it an accessible topic that if people are interested in it then they can they can come and learn more.
8:10
And we were kind of talking before about how it really is something that for many people is almost a lifelong interest that starts, you know, when we start introducing it very young in our primary school education and then just seems to endure as something a fascination for different reasons.
8:29
And and I think we see that by the appeal of museum exhibitions and how well they are received when when something of particular note is put out on display or they make a really interesting showcase of mummies or or other types of artifacts, you know, people really do enjoy going and seeing them.
8:52
And I think that's quite universal.
I think you see it all around the world this very, very much this intriguing interest in ancient Egypt.
I think it's it's something you've seen earlier actually.
I think it's something just quite human about it in finds and similarities with people from the past.
9:10
You know, it feels like so long ago, but you know we can find so many things in common with people from the past.
And I think that's part of what makes the source of enduring law and fascination with the AJ just just move through time.
9:26
And obviously we've got big peaks a bit, you know, with like waves in the Victorian era, tut mania, with the discovery of Tutankhamun and things like that.
But there's always the sort of undercurrent where, like I say, people are interested in it from childhood and it's, it's amazing.
9:43
It's really fascinating, I think.
I completely agree and I and I think it's that we like to find the similarities even in the differences and and when you look at some of the you know the core beliefs particularly in things like the afterlife, this is where you can see connections and and it's something that is universal.
10:03
You know it's something that intrigues all cultures across the world and has done for centuries this interesting what happens to people after death.
And and that's just one example of of where we can find similarities even in the differences things that interested people from centuries ago are still things that interest us today.
10:27
And and I think that's part of the appeal.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think when we come to the the sort of paranormal aspect of it as well, yeah, that that's really apparent because it ghosts as all the time really.
10:43
You know we've got the ghosts and on hauntings reporting to Hortons going back to Mesopotamia.
And you know, so it's something that's kind of ingrained in us I think.
And and I guess it's partly like again quite a human need and desire to want to know things and it's kind of the thing that we don't really know about We we don't know for sure.
11:07
And I think that's part of the reason why people from cultures centuries back and well, you know, you know, for thousands and thousands of years and and even up to the day why people are so interested in it.
Absolutely.
And This is why I'm so intrigued and just so enthusiastic about having the chance to talk to you because I think there will be things that we we cover that even though people may be interested may not actually know themselves.
11:38
And you know, I think we're going to be touching on talking points that don't really have, don't get discussed as much and and aren't as well known as other types of of examples of, you know, stories and accounts that you may be having in other periods.
11:55
So I think it'd be really interesting to look at some of the some of the things that we're going to be talking about tonight.
I think it will be a really intriguing discussion.
So I can't wait honestly, I'm literally, I've been excited to to have this chat with you for weeks.
12:11
I can't.
Wait, seem.
I've been so looking forward to it, you know, especially being a bit of a spooky person myself, like, you know, I love anything like this.
Anyway, I love the paranormal.
So getting to sort of blend the two things together and talk about it with you, it's just, yeah, it's great.
12:26
I've been really looking forward to it.
So do you want to just start off by telling us how it is that we know about these ancient Egyptian ghost stories?
Yes.
So.
We know about them because of materials, so physical things that have been left behind in or around tombs.
12:48
Also we know about ancient Egyptian religion and and like beliefs in the afterlife, which contributes that book.
With regards to the sort of ghost story aspect of it, yeah, that that we have physical evidence for that happening to people, which is amazing.
13:06
So ancient Egyptians, you know, if they found themselves haunted or they had a specific request for the dead, maybe they could leave a letter.
And we usually find these and tombs and the fans on papaya and linens and bowls as well.
13:22
So as part of an offering for the dead.
That's so fascinating.
I mean, it feels very similar to discussions that I had with Professor Irving Finkel about ancient Mesopotamia, with this, this communication with the dead being almost intrinsically part of their everyday world and their existence.
13:43
And that's why it's something that was documented the way that it was on the clay tablets in the sense that it was just part of their everyday culture.
And if they had these problems, this is what they did.
It would be recorded and put down in order to try and deal with the problem, but also as a record of what has happened.
14:03
And it feels similar to that, really.
It is, yeah.
Yeah.
It's really similar.
I think one of the sort of key differences with with ancient Egyptian, with the examples of Hauntans, is that you can appeal directly to the dead, which is is fascinating in itself.
14:20
But it also ties into we have the the Mortuary cult or the cult of the dead in ancient Egypt.
And it's kind of like ceremonial religious practice and it ensures the dead have got a good passage through to the afterlife and then they have a nice day when they're there and things like that.
14:38
And when we, when we're seeing these letters written on bowls, for example, this is part of that, that Mortuary cult.
So it's it's leaving an offering in a bowl.
So the dead's more likely to go, oh, what's that?
And then and then read the letter.
So obviously we've we've also got it on, you know, we've got things recorded on tomb walls in terms of, you know, prayers of the dead and things like that.
15:02
But I think it's just so interesting that we just have this evidence for actual contact with the beyond, beyond the grave, you know?
Yeah, a type of spirit communication.
Yes, yeah.
Is there a?
Theme as to the types of messages that are recorded in the sense of does it indicate why this person is being haunted?
15:26
Is it linked to specific types of themes and and things that are happening maybe with the denim?
I mean, I know you just mentioned about the aim is obviously you want them to have that good passage into the afterlife and I'm just wondering if there's some kind of connection there with maybe why these hauntings are believed to have taken place and being recorded?
15:46
Yeah.
So there's a couple of different reasons.
So there's, there's, there's there's quite a few.
I'll probably just focus on two.
So you've got the idea of returning to help or returning to haunt.
So I think what might be useful as well as to to think about what the ancient Egyptians sort of understood a ghost to be and how a person's made-up because that then effects how that person might come back in the afterlife then, you know, as a spirit.
16:19
So we've got, you know, you've got the corpse when you die and then there's other parts here that make you up.
So you've got your name, you've got the shadow, which is known as the shoot, the car, which is the creative life force of a person.
The bar which you might you'll see on the in the book of the Dead for example or on tomb scenes which is kind of it looks like, well it is a bird.
16:41
It's a bar birds and it's got the heads of the person and that sort of represents the personality or what makes you unique.
And then you've got the ark and the this is the spirit.
So the ark is what can come back to the mortal plane to interact with the living or carry out requests on their behalf.
17:03
So if you're asking for something, this is this is this is that.
But you to become Ark, you've got to undergo sort of proper processes during mummification and burial and you've got to have the right spells to achieve this state of Ark.
So when we think about contacting the dead or the dead return and we know that the Egyptians believed that they could do this and that you could interact with the Ark and that's what we might now interpret as a ghost.
17:33
So yeah, we've got like, so we've got these, these sort of two two sides of it return and to help and return and to haunt.
Which is fascinating in itself because you've got this idea of directly appealing to the deads, which I think as well going back to what you were saying about connections with modern times and or sort of finds and common grounds with ancient religions and ancient cultures.
18:00
I kind of see it as quite similar to how you might, you know, in Christianity or Catholicism, you might light a candle for the dead in church, but you might also call in a few favours as part of that.
So, you know, asking your great, great nan for help with an interview and that sort of thing.
18:20
And yeah, that's the kind of thing that we're seeing in ancient Egypt as well, when we see this idea of returning to help.
And there there seems to be a degree of almost magic and symbolism and and ritual to it as well in in that sense, which again I think is also really fascinating to kind of unpick some of that because it again it's something that we see in in lots of of cultures but also just like you were talking about these these.
18:54
Very simple rituals that we still do in modern day.
Things like lighting the candle, that's a ritual of communication with the dead.
And if we then translate that to paranormal investigating, whether it's someone communicating through something like a Ouija board or automatic writing, these becomes ritual rituals in their own right.
19:17
So it is fascinating to make these types of connections, I think with spirit communication going all the way back to some of these ancient cultures.
Because yeah, I think it reveals an awful lot about the power and the belief that people had and still have with communicating with the dead.
19:36
And I think that's important.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, it's it's it's part of it.
It's accepted in ancient Egypt as part of their religious practice, as part of their culture, whereas obviously today it's not as accepted.
19:53
If you were, if you said you were going to go and leave a letter in someone's grave to help you out with something, people might raise an eyebrow.
But yeah, it's all it's part of.
It's part of life then and like you say part of ritual as well.
So and it comes back to this idea of the Mortuary cults again.
20:10
So the the the cult of the dead and the the ritualistic things that people would do for the dead, so bringing offerings in.
You know, say saying prayers for people as well.
You know, people might do that sort of not as formal as a letter.
20:26
You know, you could do that.
You could do that wherever, you could do that whenever.
But yeah, I think it's it's it's really interesting, this idea.
So are there other similarities with, you know, the perception of the ghost in ancient Egypt?
With modern ideas about ghosts, you know there are other other similarities that you would say are really important to make note of.
20:51
I think probably the sort of things that they're asking for.
So in this sort of when people are trying to ask for help, so the kinds of things that they're asking to help for might be things that we might also want help for in the modern day.
So it could be things like legal disputes.
21:09
It could be if you needed, if you had an issue with inheritance or if you needed help with fertility and things like that.
And there's there's also, there's examples of sibling disputes as well, which I find really, really interesting.
21:26
So it's, you know, going back to brothers and sisters, arguing back even in in ancient times and things like that.
And there's a really good example actually.
So it's, I think it's in the peachy museum.
I'm not sure if it's on display, but it's a man called Shepsey and he's appealing to his deceased parents to interject because he's having a row with his brother but his brother's dead.
21:54
So that's a bit of a plot twist when you when you're reading it and he writes a letter on a bowl and leaves it in his parents too.
And he's kind of like, you know, just a reminder, I've been, I've been great.
I've been leaving you all these things in your team.
I've been doing all my ritualistic practices down to a tee.
22:10
I think it's mum asked for some quails.
He was like, I've left you seven of those and then it's kind of like, well, anyway, my brother has been, has been haunting me.
He's been causing me a lot of issues.
Can you sort it out so you know you've got this sort of talent snitching on your brother from beyond the grave as well?
22:30
That's so fascinating and it's kind of, I think, again, like you were mentioning it, it's it's something that I think still resonates today.
It's this sense of almost unfinished stories, unfinished issues, unfinished problems, or just things that you're struggling with in everyday life.
22:49
You know, this this need to still be able to reach to people who were out, who were important to you.
And, you know, I think anybody who has lost someone that they cared about will recognize sometimes that internal voice that they have, that internal dialogue they have with just throwing that question out to the person that they that they would have had that conversation with.
23:12
And you know, whether that takes place at a graveside or in a cemetery or a church or if it takes place just in your own home, I think we all still do that unconsciously.
And I think you still you see that.
23:27
But then here is something, you know, it's that kind of next level up of it becomes part of something ritualistic, this communication with the dead.
And and I think that's partly because obviously for the ancient Egyptians, the passage of of someone into the afterlife and the belief system of the afterlife was so very much part of their culture.
23:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I think you're, you're totally right.
And about that sort of unconscious thing that people do.
So you don't have to be a big believer in in an afterlife or you don't have to be religious.
24:06
You don't have to believe in ghosts and things like that.
To have those moments where you might say, you know, just give me a sign or you might look at a photograph and give it a nod and, you know, it's little things like that that you do on on a daily basis.
24:22
But it's interesting saying about this idea of ritual as well because, I mean, I do it.
I've got a photograph of my grandma who passed away a couple of years ago by the front door.
And, you know, it's little things, isn't it?
You know, it's just sort of like say hello, you know, when you come in.
Just sort of that comfort thing, isn't it as well?
24:41
Well, I think it's, it's maintaining that connection, isn't it?
And and I think very much part of ancient Egypt was obviously this belief that the afterlife was so secure in terms of their mindset.
24:57
And so therefore these continuations of these relationships, we're still really important to maintain.
Even if that person was deceased, it was still a bond because you were expected and it was known and it was believed that you were going to be reunited with all of those people in the afterlife.
25:17
And you know I think you can see that so very clearly when I mean we're all very familiar with tombs where you know other remains have been found and placed together so that they can be together in the afterlife.
And I think it, I think that really does show that profound sense of connection and these bonds in life still you know going to be there in debt.
25:41
So it does make sense that there is this continual communication when that belief system and that assurance that this is what was going to happen was so very much part of everybody's mindset.
You know, it was their very much their consciousness and their thought system.
25:59
Yeah.
And like I think the the, the continuous relationship aspect of it as well, the the relationship almost doesn't change sometimes.
So we still sort of see this things are kind of recipro reciprocal as well.
26:15
So you know, I'm doing this to uphold your Mortuary calls.
I'm doing this to ensure that you're having a nice cushy life in the afterlife.
You know can you do me a favour which I think is really interesting as well and it sort of comes back to this idea of the ancient Egyptian body as well.
26:31
And you know all of these parts that make up you and if that's you know that's whole.
So that person's not like not like you know if we see if we think about ghost studies sometimes and I'm aura haunting and and the ghosts might not be sort of aware who they are or why they're there.
26:52
Or poltergeist activity for example, where that poltergeist might not be sure what their history or past is or who they are and and no one really knows why they're haunting anywhere and that kind of thing.
It's very different.
Like this is still the same person in the afterlife with this let you say this continuous relationship which is fascinating and that'll continue up until the point that that Mortuary calls ends obviously for for Pharaohs and things like that.
27:21
That's going to go on much longer than than people who were sort of lower down in the social class or.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
So I'm kind of intrigued.
You've got these examples of these returnings to haunt people.
Is there evidence as to what that might have looked like in terms of the experiences of the person having this, this phenomena, this haunting of their whoever it was?
27:47
Is any of that recorded and documented as to what it was that they were experienced as to why they were then reaching out to try and resolve this?
Yes.
So there's there's two really interesting examples that are kind of different.
So First off we've got one that's a true ghost story and and I say true because it's true to the people at the time.
28:09
This is their this is what they believed.
And then we also have the fictional aspect of it in ancient Egypt as well.
So we have evidence for fictional ghost stories, which is fascinating.
But if we start off with the the true one, so we've we've got evidence of a A man is a is the widower of a woman called Ankuri.
28:36
And he is essentially appealing directly to his dead wife in the form of a letter.
And he leaves the letter in a tomb and it's attached to a figurine of his wife, which I think is a really nice touch actually.
28:51
And I think it's something that it's a little bit different to to bowls and linens and things like that.
And he is being haunted by her.
So this is this idea of sort of like the restless dud and and returning to haunt.
And he writes this really, really long letter.
29:08
It's it's quite desperate in parts.
And he essentially says to me, I say what have I done?
You know, what have, what have I done to you?
I've looked after you.
I didn't even divorce you.
You've had the best linens to wrap yourself up in, and there's a a few translations to the story.
29:24
And as with all of them, but there's a really common theme in the translation of this one that gets picked up and nearly all of the translations of the text.
And it's interesting because it's the first, I think it's the first time I've seen an example of this.
29:44
But he essentially says to Anne Keiri, you know what you've done is to lay hands on me.
So it's interesting to me because it it implies that the haunting goes beyond, you know, like a competition or an audio phenomena phenomena and it's moving into the realm of physical contact.
30:07
So and we also know there's there's other examples as well where people might have bad dreams and things like that and that's how these hauntings are coming through.
But here we've obviously, we've got, we've got an apparition and we've got physical contact as well.
30:24
And you know, he goes on in this letter, it's like I say it's quite long and he, he's sort of saying terrible.
He's again, he's trying to find out what it is that he's done to make her come back and haunt him, lay hands on him.
And he says, you know, I've not been to any houses, you know, in the three years since you've died.
30:44
And he mentions it twice in the letter.
And buy houses.
He mentions the sisters of the houses.
So we can interpret this as he hasn't visitors, a sex worker.
So he's essentially writing this letter to say, you know I've you've been dead for three years and I've not even had sex.
31:00
Why are you attacking me as a as a ghost?
But yeah.
And, and I think this is an interesting one as well, because we can sort of safely assume the haunt and stop because there's no other examples in the tomb where he's written a letter to Ankiri.
31:17
OK, so it seemed to do the trick, you know?
Which is so fascinating.
I mean it's it's fascinating for different reasons, I think rightly because here you've got an example of someone who is believing they're having this experience where their deceased wife is physically having that communication in terms of touch and some kind of sensation of feeling touched.
31:39
I mean, what that involves, I mean, is it something sinister?
Are they having some kind of an attack feeling like they're being attacked?
Or is it just the sensation of maybe feeling like someone's touching them, or a touch on the shoulder, a touch on the hand, a touch on the arm type thing, something a little less innocuous?
31:59
But even still, anything along that scale is quite interesting because that's not something that you that many experience as a phenomena, that sensation of something physically touching you.
But then the fact that it ends the interest in ghosts and the paranormal is fascinating.
32:19
But then there's also the power of the mind and what it is that we can do.
And is there an element here of, well, this communication is enough to bring some kind of a peace.
Does this suggest something about, you know he had trauma surrounding the death of his wife and maybe things that he felt he hadn't done right.
32:41
And somehow by communicating in this manner is this something that's eased his own burdens And so is this is this a haunting that he's created because of how he felt about the loss of his wife but then having this moment of closure as given in that piece that has ended this experience.
32:59
I mean it's it's fascinating and it's it's something that I think intrigues anyone interested, interested in the paranormal as to what degree of of what's being experienced is being caused by us or buy something else.
33:14
I mean it all kind of gets blurred and blended together.
I think that's a really, really interesting account.
Fascinating.
Yeah, it is, isn't it?
I think that's so interesting as well with with, you know, the idea of the power of the mind really, isn't it?
And I did think when I was reading it, has he got a guilt of conscience?
33:33
Because, you know, it does mention the fact he hasn't visitors any houses twice in two parts of the letter towards the end.
I, you know, And I was thinking that you know, could he could, he had just been a bit guilty.
But I hadn't sort of considered that idea that it could be, you know, closure for him as well, which is a really, really, really interesting, really interesting thought.
34:00
Yeah.
I mean there was this experiment carried out in Canada called the Phillip Experiment.
And it's quite well known whereby a group of people who were ranging in ages and experiences and kind of backgrounds over the course of a few years basically created this back story that was completely fictional for a man called Philip from England who who cheated on his wife and got the the love, you know, this love interest, this gypsy that he had met basically killed by association and he was so then traumatized by this loss that he committed suicide.
34:41
And you know, they they they create this very elaborate back story that they then use to try and communicate with Philip.
And obviously anybody who's interested in that, in that experiment will know that they then had very, very powerful experiences with things like the table moving quite alarmingly caught on on film.
35:07
They would have these, these moments where they felt that Philip, who had not been real as a person, who they had made-up somehow, is still coming through in phenomena that they're all experiencing.
And so there is I I do think it is something very important to consider how much we as investigators and people who might believe in something can also create something.
35:34
So yeah, I think it's it's fascinating to kind of think about that when you have a story come through like that one that you shared where there are things coming through in some of the things that he was writing to her about where he is trying to almost prove something.
35:51
You know he's he's basically saying I'm being pure and true to our relationship, you know.
So why are you still coming through and doing this?
To me?
And so it it does suggest something very much an internal struggle as well I think in terms of needing something to be rectified or I don't know.
36:11
It's just I think it poses some really interesting questions as to what was happening.
Yeah, it does.
And I think as well, because there's this sort of expectation in ancient Egypt that, you know, life continues after the mortal body has, has has passed away, how difficult that must have been to to grieve.
36:35
You know, it's very regardless of what you believe and whether you believe in an afterlife or anything that sort of raw emotional hurt that you feel when someone passes away.
And then and then you know the grief that continues forever.
36:51
And you know, sort of balancing that with their own belief in that person still existing as they were, but in a different place that can communicate with you and that can return.
And you know his well, the recorded, the one that we have recorded it potentially the only occurrence that we have where he's had contact with his deceased wife is a bad one.
37:19
That must have been quite a difficult thing to try and deal with as well emotionally.
Gosh, absolutely.
Especially when as we've been saying, you know, the idea is that you are supposed to have positive interactions and and a positive these positive bonds maintained to maintain these in depth and to have a good depth and to have a good life in depth.
37:43
So yeah, it's it's fascinating to kind of see that kind of play out and how it then suddenly stops, which is just really interesting, you know, to have that kind of ability to analyse it and to then have the questions and thoughts about it.
37:58
I think it reveals so much about the culture and the belief system just in one account alone.
Yeah.
And there's, you know, there's a fair few of them as well.
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38:21
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38:40
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39:02
So why not come along to enjoy a rich web of accounts perfect for this season?
Dark tales of corpses, ghosts, folklore, Christmas and Halloween, Macabre traditions and connections, and a whole lot more.
39:18
And now let's head back to the podcast.
39:32
So you mentioned that the alternative was this ghost story.
Do you want to just tell us a little bit more about that one, and maybe what that kind of demonstrates about belief in ghosts?
Yeah.
So there's a really famous one and it's either called you'll just see it referred to as a ghost story or a Konstmap and the ghost.
39:54
And you know, here we've got this idea of the returning spirit coming back in fictional accounts, which is is again in in its own right, is super fascinating and it's almost like an early cautionary tale.
And this example was written over 3000 years ago, you know, so it's it's.
40:14
Amazing that we've got this record still, and it tells the tale of a priest named Amun Konsumab and he has an encounter with a ghost.
So a bit of a disclaimer though, because part of the text is missing, so the first part and then the last part of the text we don't have.
40:36
And there's also various translations of it.
Some people think it's Konsmab the whole way through the story and some people think it's another person that translates as it as like another person experiences the haunts and then goes and fetches Konsmab.
40:54
So we'll just go with that one because it's it's a little bit more exciting.
So it basically it starts off with somebody falling asleep in the Theban Necropolis and then they wake up to find a spirit.
And the spirit is a man called Nebu Samekh.
And he's really upset because he's got this tomb, It hasn't been looked after, You know, his Mortuary court hasn't been upheld.
41:17
It's fallen to bets he's had no offerings.
He's hungry, he's cold, and there's a wind that is blowing through the tomb and he's scared.
And I think that's the important thing, is that this is a ghost who is scared because he thinks he's no longer going to exist, because he hasn't had these offerings and because he's got nowhere to live.
41:40
And then Konsumov comes into the story then, and he summons the spirit of Nebu Samak.
And he says, you know, tell me about yourself.
And so he gives him this back story, how he was the overseer.
He was he was overseer of a of the tragedy of King Menuhota.
41:57
He was the Lieutenant of an army.
So this is a guy who has had considerable station and he had a tomb that was really nice that is just now not fit for purpose at all.
And he he wants to help him.
But Nebu Smith, he's kind of, I've been having none of it.
42:13
So he's like saying, you know what can you do?
You're a priest.
There's nothing you can do about this.
I've been promised before that someone had fixed my tomb and it be repaired and it just hasn't happened.
So Konsmob says, well, you know, if I if I can't fix the term, then what I can do is I can order some of my servants to go and bring you food and water.
42:33
So you've at least got that.
So, you know, he goes away and Konsmob sends some people to search for the term and this is where it sort of cuts off.
So it ends quite abruptly.
But we can sort of assume based on the fact that it's kind of an early cautionary tale, I guess, that he's treated his word and that he, you know, he goes and he carries out these wishes for Nebu Samir.
43:01
So he no longer has to, you know, wail around in there, in in is broken down to him and worry about what's going to happen to him.
That's so fascinating, and I think I think you can see real connections with other types of ghost tropes and ghost stories and ghost law and folklore around certain aspects, whereby the ghost story itself becomes this cautionary tale of a life unfulfilled for some reason.
43:29
And therefore you can learn something from this type of story, whether it's choosing somebody that you shouldn't love, making the right choices about love, living the good life, living the good respectful life, the Christian life.
And somehow if you've fallen outside of that, then you obviously come back as the ghost in a lot of accounts whereby because your life had this end, it's somehow unfulfilled in the afterlife.
43:56
So you can, you can really see how this account from Egypt fits that same kind of narrative in the sense that, well, it makes sense that concerns around how they are remembered and respected in death and maintained, you know, where they are buried is maintained as a as a sign of honoring them.
44:17
How if that's not carried out properly that you can then have these these types of hauntings where someone feels that they're being slighted in death.
So it kind of stands as this, this cautionary tale for people to maintain these sites, to keep honoring the dead, which again, very much fits in what we've been saying about the Egyptians.
44:39
Those bonds were so paramount and so important to maintain that here you've got an example where it hasn't.
And the ramifications and the repercussions of that are, well, here you have a spirit very much unhappy.
Yeah, unhappy and and scared, you know.
44:57
You know you shouldn't you shouldn't really have to feel fear when you're when you're dead.
But I think there's a there's another side to this cautionary tale as well.
So it's it's obviously, it's it's about maintaining the Mortuary cults essentially.
45:14
So it's a warning about that.
Look at what happened if not.
But I think it also would save us a little bit of a warning for people to lead a good life.
And this is again, like you're saying the themes that we see in cautionary tales throughout literature.
But what would you do if you didn't lead a good life and you had no one to give you these offerings at all?
45:37
So you know, at least he's had some for some period of time and he's getting them back.
He's getting them back now.
Seems like a nice, nice ghost, someone you'd want to help.
But what if you were not a very good person in life?
What if you didn't have many, have many friends or people that liked you?
45:57
What would happen to your your spirit, your ACH, then?
And again, we, you know, we only have to think about other burial sites.
You know, you have places of mourning so that people can do precisely that.
It's a place to come back and honour.
And that's why you know you you have so many people who worked tirelessly to try and maintain graves even when no one else is able to do that after maybe their family has long gone too.
46:24
Because we still have those same belief system.
Again, it's the connection, isn't it?
We we have that same idea and that same principle of these are places to honor the dead, even if they're no longer known and spoken about.
Their life still mattered.
And so, yeah, again, it makes complete sense that that message is something being told in this tale of lead the good life, so that you do have people that will will continue to honour you and death.
46:52
It's quite powerful, it really is.
Because again, it is, isn't it?
I think it just allows us to see connections that maybe we don't realise are there, yeah?
I mean, the first time I read it, you know, I was like, wow, an an ancient Egyptian ghost story.
Amazing.
And then you know you've read in it again and you read the different translations of it as well, which can sometimes give it a slightly different meaning as well.
47:16
When, you know, depending on who's translated it and it just gets a bit deep, you know, start feeling like oh, it's less, it's less spooky and more just a really sad story that hopefully I like to think has got a really nice ending where you know, Nabusa Mac is is happy and no longer feels scared and no longer has wind blowing through his tomb.
47:39
Yeah, there's that resolution, isn't there?
That you?
You almost have.
It's a cautionary tale, but it's also one that has a very clear well, this is what we can all do about it.
You know, there's almost that sense of moral responsibility, You know, we can all take responsibility for our dead.
47:58
So again, I think it's a really, I think it's a really powerful way of communicating with the masses, if you like, of the day, as to their significance and their importance in how they honour the dead.
48:15
That's it.
And I think, you know, we don't know for sure how the story ends it, but I think that it's highly unlikely that it did end with them not doing anything about it, You know, You know, judging by ancient Egyptian standards, unless you had somebody writing it who was a bit, you know, not, not, not too nice maybe.
48:36
But yeah, I think it's safe to say that there was a resolution and it was a good one.
If we kind of bring this now into more, say, the modern imagination, how would you say ancient ghosts from Egypt present themselves today for people interested in the paranormal, whether it's investigators or just people experiencing sightings and and reporting sightings of things connected with ancient Egypt?
49:07
Yeah.
So there's quite a few and again the the quite varied and in sort of style as well.
So you know, you after after the sort of re resurgence and interest in ancient Egypt during the Victorian times, we then start seeing these cautionary tales and literature and Victorian literature that then sort of impacts us further down the line with all these, you know, ancient Egyptian ghost stories, stories about mummies returning from the dead and things like that.
49:38
And these start seeping into the popular imagination.
And we've got this idea of purses and cursed objects, first of all.
And there's a really interesting one actually about the Titanic.
So it's about a month after the Titanic sinks, it's in the Washington Post and they start theorising that the sinking of the ship was due to an ancient Egyptian coffin, lids that was cursed.
50:05
I used to think that they belonged to Aman RA and she's either reported in various museum outlets as either a Princess or a priestess and these tales about it being haunted, the cursed on the Titanic aren't the first ones.
50:22
So before that, we have tales of it being cursed and haunted in the British Museum.
And we have reports of Watchmen in the British Museum hearing their screaming and crying and banging on the coffin, a rice, a rice, a piece on her.
And apparently he became convinced that there was malevolent forces attached to it.
50:41
And then he died.
And so you've got all these these tales which are then conflated and, you know, I'm in Ross coffin lids.
It is.
It's a real thing.
It wasn't on the Titanic.
It didn't actually leave the British Museum until just like a rice a beef stint in the 90s.
But people still report feeling odd in its presence.
51:01
So if you go and visit the British Museum, it's just, it's known as like the unlucky mummy.
So you know, you might, you might have heard of it and you know various news outlets.
Every couple of years it'll have a bit of a resurgence and people report and feeling unwell or that they go away and they have really bad runs of bad luck after being in its presence for more even coming up to like the modern day again you've got, you've got this in in the museum, but then outside of the museum setting as well.
51:29
So her ghost is said to haunt Holborn station on the Underground in London.
And again we have these reports of screaming and of wailing and things like that.
So yeah, that's one that's sort of come right the way through and stuck with us.
51:49
I think there are plenty of reports from, you know, surrounding the Titanic sinking, whereby it was reported in the media that the story of the mummy was being told the night at the sinking, wasn't it, In terms of people sat around at their wonderfully elaborate dinner with all their fine China and, you know, the white linen in their coattails and hats and so on, listening to their story of the cursed mummy.
52:15
And that was the night that the sinking happened.
And so it it is something that you see very much as this enduring theme, the the idea of something being cursed in some capacity.
And we see it with Tutankhamun and you know, the the the discovery of his tomb and then everybody having a mysterious death or these these plagues against them, these incidents against them after they have unearthed him, you know, and removed his body.
52:42
And there's another one in Edinburgh.
And this was something made known to be by a fellow podcaster, you know, Eerie, Edinburgh, who are fantastic, really great podcasts, yeah.
I've listened to Eerie Edinburgh.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
Podcasts.
Podcasts.
52:58
But he he knows of of one in Edinburgh itself in the 1930s And I'm, I think I'm saying this right, but I may not be of someone called Zeela Seton, Zeela Seton.
OK.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He took a sacrum from a tomb in the Valley of the Kings back to Edinburgh in the 1930s and once they returned, they then had all manner of hauntings, you know, the idea being that the the bone itself was cursed and therefore this was something being inflicted on the household.
53:29
So you've got again, something very much along the same lines of what you were talking about, this connection with Egypt, ghost stories and curses very much following through in so many different reports and accounts and stories worldwide, I would say.
53:50
Yeah, absolutely worldwide.
And I think part of it is, you know, you've got this sort of fascination with ancient Egypt.
People were bringing things back.
They shouldn't be.
You know there's a lot of theft and looting that went on and illicit trade and even gifts and and things like that.
54:08
And I think it does leave this sort of question and in people's minds of what would happen if you what's going to happen if you do that, that's if it's not the right thing to do.
So again coming back to this idea of the cautionary tail then like the Seatons, you know, that's that's the question.
54:25
You tell you brought somebody's human remains back that you shouldn't have done, then what's what are the repercussions for that?
Given that this is coming at at a time kind of off of the back of not only theft of of mummies and and other artifacts and things, but the desecration of mummies.
54:43
When we think about you know, their their remains being used in medicine, in in art, in you know, turning it into paint.
I mean they were used for manner of things.
And I think that became something once that became known that was distasteful in for for some.
55:01
So it became something that was a bit more of a topic point.
So it kind of makes sense that it then transitions into something maybe that does have that element of we should be fearful of this because what happens if there is this outcome at the end of it.
55:16
So it kind of makes sense that it all transitions into that as a type of a story, an account based on the very, quite stark history in terms of of desecration of of tombs, of mummies, of artefacts and and theft.
55:32
Yeah, and it becomes almost like a gothic troupe.
And we've never, we've never really shaken that off.
We see it in films and and books all the time and and in and in stories like, you know, like like like I'm in RA in Holborn who has been taken from from her resting place and now haunts is said to haunt a space in London.
55:57
So.
But I think, I think it fits very much.
Again when we think about other ghost law around the dead, you know, you see the same pattern, don't you, in terms of if if places of burial have been disturbed in some capacity that that then somehow effects that spirit in the afterlife.
56:20
So it does make sense and I think when we think very much about the Christian belief in the in death being, well you had to have the proper burial and it be done in certain manners for you to have that transition into the afterlife.
56:37
It kind of does make sense that you then do have these these elements like curses coming through where it becomes so very much ingrained I would say in popular culture belief system that still exists today.
But we don't necessarily know, we don't necessarily know and understand how that originated until you start peeling back the layers of understanding the history when it comes to treatment of of ancient Egypt.
57:03
Yeah.
Artifacts, etcetera.
Yeah, and and a lot of it.
You know, a lot of media hype as well around certain events.
So you know what you do when the initial news story started down?
How do you keep people engaged?
People love a ghost story.
57:19
Definitely.
And again, I think there's something very enduring about those types of tales that just fascinating, that are just fascinating to us.
And you know, I had, I had the pleasure of talking to Sylvia Schultz and you know, that podcast went out recently.
57:35
Yes, I was going to mention that because Sylvia mentioned the Is it the mummy at the Field Museum, the Screaming Mummy?
Yeah, I was thinking, I need to, I need to contact Sylvia and ask about that because I was like, right, Yeah, because there's there's a lot of reports of museums, of various types of hauntings at museums in relation to, like the ancient Egyptian dads.
57:58
And it it was one that I'm, I'm not kidding when I say it gave me goosebumps over my entire body because it there's something very visual about it.
And you know in in this case it was this seeing it almost like a swarm.
You know this mist that's like a swarm of bees moving to this and I was like Crikey that again just something very, very visual and visceral about that.
58:23
It's yeah, it's it's something that I think is it's that that they have their own kind of pattern and law in itself in terms of the types of sightings and experiences that you have.
One of them being things like the Screaming Mummy.
58:38
There's there's often these similar types of sounds or experiences that I do think set them apart and really do warrant, I think, examining the type of law and reports around these types types of artifacts, because yeah, they're fascinating.
58:55
Really, really interesting.
Yeah, like you say, it usually links back to that, that sort of rage and anger, doesn't it?
Or confusion of, you know, why I'm here.
But there's there's different ones as well.
So there's another one in Leeds.
Here's 2017 and Leeds have got a really famous mummified's ancient Egyptian priests called Net Nasir Moon.
59:17
And we've got two paranormal investigators who go and you know to undertake an investigation at the museum and they'd reported.
So they've got like a bit of a set up at Leeds.
It's a fake fake tomb to try and showcase what it you know what it would be like in Nasir Moon's tomb in Egypt.
59:36
And they start reporting about their equipment going off and you know, all sorts of things going wrong with it.
But then they they report seeing an apparition, like a shadow apparition of a hooded priest, which I thought was so unusual because I haven't heard anything like that before.
59:54
You don't normally hear of them.
You don't normally hear reports when it comes to ancient Egyptian ghosts as being almost like the monk figure that we have in in.
I don't know that it's again, it's another trope, isn't it, in the Horns of Monk.
1:00:10
So that was really interesting, kind of like a margin of two different styles of hauntings that get reported.
I think you're right.
It is that kind of almost blending of of tropes which makes it interesting and again just poses that question of why, you know, is it just, are we making that connection?
1:00:31
Are we seeing something because it's something familiar to us or is it something else?
But we are identifying it as something because that's something that we recognize.
But it is.
It's just fascinating.
And when you really do start to unpick accounts like this, you do see so many.
1:00:47
And it's for me, I think I find it fascinating in the sense that I'm not someone that necessarily kind of stands fully behind the idea of objects being haunted.
I don't necessarily think that's the right way of describing it.
I think things can have things, can have energies attached to them, which is different.
1:01:09
I think it reads differently, it kind of comes across differently and that makes sense to me really very strongly when it comes to particularly artefacts when it surrounding Egypt, ancient Egypt.
And I think if the culture in the belief system is such that these are very symbolic things that matter in death, it makes sense for energy that it can.
1:01:35
Something can become attached to them because to them it was so very important.
And I think when you have that, it's no different than to residual hauntings of someone returning to their family home, because that was what was important to them.
1:01:51
Here, these artefacts had the same kind of religious symbolic importance.
And so again, it makes sense that you can have these types of phenomena reported around artefacts or mummies or places of burial, because to them that was so very, very important to their everyday existence in life and in death.
1:02:16
Yeah.
And I think as well again going back to this idea of of of sort of stories and cautionary tales.
I think there's we often figure that the ancient or we I think it's difficult to fathom sometimes.
Isn't it there that when we see a mummy in a museum that's a corpse and and that that's a corpse of somebody who you know, it's like you say that has got things like amulets and protective aspects to where they've been separated from their belongings that would have been important to them in their tomb set.
1:02:52
And it's interesting what you're saying about about objects as well holding sort of energies.
It's almost like like it like stones heap theory on a really small scale, isn't it?
Like yeah, I guess you know with the way a build nor space can can hold a memory or like an echo or can objects do that too?
1:03:17
I think when we think about how so many of their their rituals and the preparation of the dead, you know, think about how many people were then putting their energy into these amulets, these artifacts, these various things in the tomb and then family as well.
1:03:34
And so it is almost this collective energy.
But I do think could result in something then still being present centuries later that we pick up on and we feel too.
And so it's an extension, I think, of, of other types of hauntings that people experience, but slightly different in that sense.
1:03:55
And I think that to me makes more sense as a way of understanding and thinking about it rather than this idea of something literally being haunted.
I think for me, I just like to try and think about it and word it slightly differently because I think that doesn't really say a lot.
1:04:13
But I think no, this kind of discussion I think is a more for me certainly is a is a more interesting way of looking at it and trying to unpick, well, what does that mean if if an object is haunted, why, What's the rationale behind it?
1:04:29
And as I say, that doesn't really say a lot, whereas I think this kind of discussion just adds a bit more interest and a bit more intrigue as to the whys and the insurance and outs.
Yeah, adds another lighter to it.
Doesn't.
It, you know, definitely.
You just reminded me of another one as well when you when you mentioned about amulets.
1:04:48
So I was listening to The Witch Farm, Danny Robbins production and there was, there was a follow up episodes where the family was talking about finds in an ancient Egyptian amulets in the earth on the farm on Halvanog in Wales.
1:05:07
But they also as part of that sort of followed up by saying they they had had experiences when they visited Egypt and the great Pyramids of flashing lights.
So it kind of conflates this and they will have, they were experiencing, they'd reported experiencing you know haunting and and poltergeists reports of poltergeist activity in their property that wasn't Egyptian in nature at all.
1:05:33
But then there's this actual layer of it which I thought was really interesting, sort of like finding, you know a bonus track of on ACD or something.
But it's you just found an ancient Egyptian amulets and it's it's a real amulet as well in in the field we are sort of merging and conflating these two, these two types of phenomena with each other.
1:06:00
So it's another blend as one and again another one.
Is there a suggestion there this ambulance somehow caused these energies in the house?
I don't know.
Well, I think it just throws throws out there that, you know, it's something that we still have all these questions about.
1:06:16
They're still unsure.
We're still asking so much of of what is happening in the experiences that people report.
And I think when we have all of these theories and questions and and things that do happen, things that do get found.
1:06:32
I just think it just prompts more questions and and more reason to be honest as to why the importance of really trying to investigate these things is so valid because not everything gets is so easily tied up in a bow and can be presented as one thing.
1:06:50
There's usually far more complex stuff at play and I think it's important to not keep trying to discount and throw things out.
I think it's.
I think it's valid to have discussions and proposed theories and try and investigate those, you know, Will we ever have the answers?
1:07:08
I don't know.
But the fact that we still keep asking those questions again tells us a lot about ourselves and and why.
I think it's us, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does.
But I think that's that's so important though, isn't it?
Because I always sort of come back to this idea that, you know, if you've experienced something, you've experienced something.
1:07:29
Yeah.
Nobody can tell you.
You haven't.
Well, they could tell, yeah.
But, you know, you know, it wouldn't be.
They don't.
Nobody knows.
What you've experienced apart from yourself is essentially what I guess I'm trying to say.
And for the ancient Egyptians, this was very real for people who have been, you know, encountered a run of bad luck after after interacting with the cursed mummy at the British Museum.
1:07:55
That's very real to them, you know.
So I think it's, I think it's interesting, isn't it, all of the the ways in which it's woven through from the ancient times to now.
And can and continues to find outlets.
1:08:12
I mean, we've mentioned things like films and how popular things like The Mummy did and other books and, you know, stories and accounts.
But you only have to look at ancient revival graves to see how again we're hearkening to something and we are bringing in symbols and you know other other things as part of those memorials to try and create those same symbolic messages and meanings behind them in the same way that you see in other grave motifs etcetera.
1:08:50
But obviously in these examples we've got other things then coming through from other cultures and again just so much law surrounding these these types of graves and they are so popular.
I mean, there's so many people that enjoy going to cemeteries to to look at the types of memorials that exist, the motifs that are there, because they they themselves tell their own types of stories.
1:09:16
And I think these Egyptian revival graves act just as similarly and have in these important stories and messages to share.
They do and you know cemeteries have got their own language as well and especially you know Victorian, you know a language, everything.
1:09:35
There's a language of flowers and things like that flirt philoriography and and you see these sort of intertwining themes then.
So you might have like an obelisk with an air on top or and a veil to symbolise the the the thin veil that separates life from death and various flowers to symbolise you know eternity.
1:09:55
And then these sorts of like mixed ideas as well.
So we see the obelisk a lot in cemeteries.
That's a great that's probably the most common thing that that we see and and when we think about Egyptian revival graves as the obelisk and there's a couple of reasons for that.
You know you've got the links with Masonic practice.
1:10:16
It's, you know it's quite a heavily featured symbol in the craft.
But you've also got this mix and this merge and of ideals of the everlasting structure of a of an obelisk for example, but also this idea of pointing up to the sky, pointing straight to God.
1:10:37
So you see this a lot in cemeteries and then they're sort of like neoclassical mash ups that you see as well, which are amazing.
So you see sort of Greek and Roman themes mixed in with ancient Egyptian themes.
We see a lot of sun disks, a lot of faux temples and pyramids.
1:10:56
We've got one in Liverpool that's I've got a ghost story attached to it actually as well.
Yeah, I've got the Mackenzie pyramids.
So yeah, that's, that's another one.
And that's so steeped in local law that you know, everyone knows about the pyramids and and the man inside it, Mackenzie, do you know about him or do you want me to tell you about him?
1:11:18
Oh, please do, because I don't actually know this one.
So brilliant.
OK, Right granting.
My head thinking why have I not heard this one?
Because I know so many grave ones, but never.
Happened one of my favourites, so it's really interesting as well because it's a really common type of story that we see attached to pyramid graves.
1:11:35
So we've got this 15 foot pyramids in Liverpool on Rodney St. and it's the Mackenzie.
Two different variations of the story obviously because it changes as time goes on and depending on what goes walk you're on as well, you know.
And the story goes that that William Mackenzie was a bit of a bit of a gambling man.
1:11:57
And one night he is drinking and gambling somewhere on Rodney St. and he's losing really badly.
And then a man approaches and says, you know you win, then I'll pay off all your debts, I'll pay off all your gambling debts and you'll you'll you'll be a rich, you'll be a wealthy man.
1:12:18
But if you lose, then I get your soul.
Turns out he's the devil, obviously.
So of course, William McKenzie loses.
He loses not only his house, his money, his wife, but he is now going to lose the soul.
1:12:33
But the devil gave him a stipulation in the contract, kind of all.
A bit of a loophole rather.
And he says, I'll take your soul when you're 6 feet under.
So the story goes that William Mackenzie then commissioned a pyramid grave where he is sat upright at a table with a winning deck with a winning hand, the cards in his hand.
1:12:57
And I think it's, it's a really fascinating story.
Unfortunately.
I hate to be a killjoy, but the pyramids.
So it's one of the ones I've been researching for a long time actually, and it's an absolute nightmare trying to find out anything about it, in part because I can't find the masonry mark because it's locked, it's locked up now, it's part of lamb belonging to flat.
1:13:20
So they they, you know, read up the Chapel there.
It's only a very, very tiny graveyard.
They read at the Chapel and turns into flats, so you can't really get in.
It's sweet talk.
And the guards didn't work, unfortunately.
So and yeah, he, his brother actually commissioned that about 15 years after he, after William Mackenzie, passed away.
1:13:41
But it's fascinating how we have this law attached to it and this idea of the devil again.
So we see this with my Jack Fuller as well.
So that's that's another one.
But he's sat up inside.
This already goes with a roast dinner, so you know.
1:13:57
And again, this idea of the devil once you're 6 feet on.
So I'm going to take yourself, well, I'll just put myself in the pyramid then.
It's just it's it's amazing when you think about it.
It's almost like taking aspects of other cultures, isn't it?
And like you said it is, it becomes this mash up, this complete mix and blend to suit what people needed.
1:14:19
And in this case, you've got a ghost story and you know an account of of someone in the in it, in death, cheating death, if you like, by taking something from another culture.
I mean it's fascinating.
It's just so interesting to to look into these things though because I just think it they they always, like you said, everything has a language, doesn't it?
1:14:43
And this is just another type of communication and understanding of belief systems and where we've been and our own beliefs around death and that kind of transitional nature of death and beliefs.
1:14:59
But at the same time, things that still resonate, still things that we do now.
Yeah, it's so intriguing, So fascinating.
Yeah, and and you know, it becomes a part of local culture then.
Yes, that continues to be told and so familiar with people.
1:15:15
Yeah, absolutely.
And yes, you then get the variations depending on who's telling it.
And again, you see that then very much in the in folklore, don't you?
But I think the same thing is true when it becomes these types of ghost lauric tales, whereby they do change based on things that are happening in particular periods of time.
1:15:36
So you have these subtle slight changes that then 200 years down the line you've got to wonder where is it going to be then if it's still being told.
But again, it's something I said before.
The fact that these are stories that are the ones that are being perpetuated speaks so much to the importance of us and our connection with death, whether we like it or not.
1:16:00
We may find death an uncomfortable topic, but ghost stories, ghost law accounts are in symmetries.
Paranormal activity does seem a more comfortable way of discussing death for many, yeah.
Yeah, it.
Does.
And so yeah, again, there's just so many layers to it and it.
1:16:19
I think it's peeling back some of these layers that allows us to really understand the the insurance and outs and why that that we do that.
It's just so fascinating, isn't it?
Oh my gosh, yes.
And you stop and think about the relationship that we've got with that.
1:16:35
Yeah, how that shapes.
Yep.
By not only our own culture and our own sort of sanitised relationship with it now as well, you know, we don't, do we do.
We perhaps see more of these ghost stories coming out, more of this idea of the fascination with the with the ancient Egyptian corpse, with mummies, with ancient Egyptian ghost stories, because we have this, you know, more more of a removal from the body as well.
1:17:10
So we don't really have as many ritualistic practices generally speaking.
You know, obviously there are cultures and religions that do, but you know a lot of the time we don't.
It's sort of like you know, you die, you go off to the to the undertakers, they sort things out and then it's up to the family whether you want an open casket or not.
1:17:31
Invariably you don't.
So that's it, off you go and then you don't have a lot of that interaction that we used to have.
So I wonder if that's that.
I mean, it must and must and it must impact and our relationship and understanding of death.
1:17:46
And I'll want a need to to listen to ghost stories and to, you know, from way back to now.
I mean, I think it's something that I I've spoken about previously with Ava, who is psychological bodies.
1:18:05
And you know, I think, I think we have this removal from death that we didn't have before.
I mean people used to tend the bodies.
They they cared for the bodies in death.
It was something, something part of what the family would do.
And like you said, now we tend to be very hands off in that experience of of someone dying.
1:18:26
We we don't necessarily care for people.
They are in Hospice, they're in hospitals, they're no longer in homes in the same way people would have died in their homes with their family.
Predominantly that doesn't happen as much.
They're then cared for and buried by other people.
1:18:44
And yeah, I think I think when you have that distance and that removal, again I think it's throws up more unknowns and again sometimes more questions about what happens afterwards because it becomes a topic of conversation that you become less and less comfortable talking about.
1:19:05
And so therefore, again, is this a routine way into ways of being able to understand and talk about loved ones and talk about death in the afterlife?
Yeah.
I mean it's it's it's so interesting and like I said, there's so many layers and ways of looking at this and and different perspectives and lenses through which you can look at.
1:19:27
But honestly, this has just been just such an interesting conversation to be able to talk about such an intriguing, fascinating culture and you know, just touching the iceberg with in terms of of what it can tell us and and stories that it has to show and ghost stories and then things that we can discover when we we go and look at some of these graves and then law that surrounds those and then artifacts in museums.
1:19:55
I mean, yeah, it's just it's just incredible.
There's so much to unpick.
Isn't that all the time?
Every time I open something, I'll look at something.
Now I'm like.
There's another three years I'm a life gone thinking about this.
One day I'm just going to One day I'm just going to invite all the people I want to invite to talk about all of these topics around the dinner table and we can just sit there until we are off, That's, you know, satisfied and talked out.
1:20:20
I would love that so much.
I'll be there.
Great.
We'd probably still be there after 10 years.
We'll make it into a ritualistic thing.
I'll be you know, we need this.
We crave A ritual.
We don't have it anymore.
So, well, absolutely in the same way.
Honestly, I I can't thank you enough.
1:20:38
It's such an intriguing conversation and it's just been such a joy to have the chance to to chat and unpick some of it with you.
So thank you so much for for kind of giving up your time to share some of this knowledge with me and then others listening through the podcast.
1:20:53
Oh, no, thank you for having me.
Honestly.
I mean, you know, I'm a I'm a fan of the podcast as well, Michelle.
So I have to admit that when you messaged me, I did lose my cool a little bit.
But I don't think I gave it away.
So it's all good.
But yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Honestly, it's been a joy.
1:21:09
You are welcome back anytime, whether it's to talk about graves or balloons or artifacts or anything like that.
And yeah, and I love.
That.
I will keep a space ready for you at that dinner table.
When I managed to do it, honestly I I can't say thank you enough and I will make sure that all of your details are on the podcast description, links etcetera, so people can come and find you easily.
1:21:34
Whether it's thank you, your website which has so many great things on there in terms of your research.
I mean you are so public in sharing with with that, but then obviously your social links so that they can keep on top of what you're doing and you know your many adventures.
1:21:52
In graveyards.
Yeah, always good sources of adventures though they are.
Thank you.
Honestly, thank you so much, Michelle.
It's been a pleasure.
Oh, thank you, Michelle.
It's yeah, it's been brilliant.
It's just great, isn't it?
Getting to chat about my favorite topics for.
1:22:08
Yeah.
You know, for an evening, it's brilliant.
Thank you.
And I will say goodbye to everybody listening.
Bye everyone.
