Bodmin Jail After Dark: Tales From Cornwall’s Haunted Prison with Joseph Carter

Michelle: Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time. I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history. Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes. That's the realm we invite you to explore with us. Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas. We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way. But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you. Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities. Feel free to share with friends and family. The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access. So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History chronicles is your passport to the other side. Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history. And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest. Welcome to another episode of Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we delve into the eerie and enigmatic stories that haunt our past. We're journeying into the dark and fascinating history today of Bodmin Gaol, a place steeped in centuries of grim tales and paranormal activity. Joining me is a very special guest, Joseph Carter, the paranormal manager of Bodmin Gaol. Joseph will be sharing some incredible insights into the haunted history and heritage of this infamous site. In this episode, we'll cover a brief overview of the history of Bodmin Gaol from its inception to its role throughout the years. Notable figures who are imprisoned within its walls and the characters who worked there, adding to its rich tapestry of stories will explore how this historic site has been preserved and repurposed for modern visitors while retaining its eerie essence. And of course, we'll be exploring chilling.

Michelle: Accounts of paranormal activities and ghost sightings.

Michelle: Within the jail itself, including specific areas where these phenomena are frequently experienced. Joseph is joining me to share exciting details about the upcoming Paracon event at Bodmin Gaol and what attendees can look forward to. He will also guide us through the unique aspects of the lights out haunted scare attraction and how it stands out from other similar experiences. And finally, we'll get to look at how the work of the bodming jail team contribute to the overall mission of preserving and sharing the site's historical and paranormal legacy. So whether you're a history buff, a paranormal enthusiast, or simply someone who loves a good ghost story, stay tuned. This episode is packed with fascinating insights that you won't want to miss. So without further ado, let's dive into the haunting history of Bodmin Gaol with our guest, Joseph Carter.

Michelle: Hi Joe, thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Joseph Carter: Hello, nice to see you. Well hear you, Michelle. After pretending that I can't see you.

Michelle: I say that all the time. I was saying it's nice to see you and goodbye as if I'm talking to someone in real life on the podcast. I think it's just natural.

Joseph Carter: Hopefully this is. Hopefully this is real life and I'm not just hallucinating again. But it's really good to be here as somebody that actually listens to your podcasts, to be invited on. Even though I was invited on a while ago, I finally managed to do it. So I'm really, really pleased to be with you.

Michelle: Do you want to start by just introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about your background with the people listening to the podcast?

Joseph Carter: I will try without going on too much and boring everyone. But yeah. My name is Joseph Carter. I am the paranormal manager of Bodmin Gaol in Cornwall in the UK. Sometimes it's described as the UK's most haunted venue, at least that's what it says on our bins. So I tend to look at that and just nod my head and go, okay, at least I know I'm in the right place. But it's a building which has got an immense amount of history behind it. And I came into the job actually just less than a year ago. In fact, this time last year I was an attraction warden at the jail. I did three days work selling tickets, and then I was offered position of becoming the paranormal manager there because I guess I happen to have the skill set of a spooky person with my master's degree being in english literature, but specifically hauntology with the works of John Masefield, quite popularly known for writing the box of delights, amongst other things. So the idea of the past demanding our attention in the present, all that kind of stuff, alongside some of the work that I've done previously for London Dungeons and Universal Studios Halloween horror nights, it kind of melded together that I'm somebody that loves history loves ghosts and certainly loves the academic nature of where we can take ghosts as well and how we can approach them.

Michelle: So do you want to give just.

Michelle: A brief overview of the history of Bodmin Gaol again, for people maybe who are new to the site itself?

Joseph Carter: Yeah. So bobbing jail was built in 1779. It was a new county jail for Cornwall. Previously, the jail that we had, Launceston Castle, actually, it was called Doomsdale because it was so grim, where men, women and children were basically chained together and left to rot. It was so badly kept and people were passing away from such things as fatal fever and sort of malnourishment, that it was deemed that we needed a brand new county jail in Cornwall. Bodmin was the perfect place for it because it had a lot of connection. In fact, even in Bodmin, there's a place called five ways where we did actually hang people once upon a time, the belief being that their souls would never know where to go because there were five ways in which they could be split. But Bob Min Jell was a jail of the future in many ways, very much thanks to John Howard, who was a philanthropist. And actually, after he was a prisoner of war himself, he came back to the UK and completely revolutionized how we take care of our prisoners. He made it around all of the major prisons in the UK and a huge expense and a massive, massive tour for that point in history, as you can imagine, traveling all over the UK and wrote very in depth reports on just how bad those jails were. So Bodmin jail was built with a hospital wing, for example. So we actually took care of you when we weren't hanging you. We gave you a bath every three months. We gave you access to really reforming you as a person, rather than just out and out punishing you for what you've done. Bob Mjal then went for a massive expansion in the middle of the victorian era because there were just so many people coming to Cornwall, coming to the southwest. And you can imagine with the mining industry then starting to rear its head and the maritime industry as well, booming, more people, more problems. And so therefore we had to build a lot more sales. It was even overcrowded to the point of being dangerous several times during its history as well. So it wasn't all perfect. Even though the history sometimes would say that Bodmin jail is a jail of the future very much. Didn't get everything right 100% of the time. And what we have now and what we're left with at the jail is our victorian jail, which has been changed remarkably since, in the last hundred years, in particular, since it closed in 1929, it's gone through many different lifespans in the last less than 100 years.

Michelle: So can you share some of the notable figures who were imprisoned in Bodmin gaol throughout its history, you know, characters or individuals who worked there or equally who were sentenced there?

Joseph Carter: One of the big. We sort of have a big. A big five, essentially, that we half celebrate and half take quite a cold look at sometimes are the prisoners such as Selina Wadge, for example. She is quite well known, especially locally. Anybody that likes their sort of grisly history is well aware of Selina Wade, who murdered her young child by putting them down a well or dropping them down a pit. It's been described a little bit ambiguously as a pit and a well. At one point or another, she'd entered into a relationship with a wealthy chap or somebody at least had some means to take care of her and her children. She was in and out of workhouses her whole life. She had two children out of wedlock and was literally seen as a wasp on the society, essentially. So when this gentleman, James Westwood, said, I'll take care of you, but not your youngest son because he's disabled, she made the really unfortunate decision of getting rid of that youngest son. There are some rumors that actually it wasn't even her that did it. It was James Westwood himself or somebody that worked with or for James. There was a very begging letter sent to her just before she hanged by James. And she pretty much responded with, well, you've got a lot to be guilty for James. I'm afraid so, yeah. Of course, that point in history, very much the ties were weighed towards the woman being at fault if it were against a man, a woman in court, I think, at that point. So, unfortunately, Selina was hanged at the jail. I wish we had our 21st century forensics available to us. Of course, another very famous person in Bodmin Zhao, and actually locally is Richard Amos Deutsch, who was the last chief warden of the jail up until its closure in 1929, or the sale in 1929. And he was, as our last chief warder, he was so invested in the building, I think he'd worked there since he was in his late twenties. He was there pretty much until the day he died, sitting in the jolly hangman tavern, as it was transformed into at one point, which was the old administration block, funnily enough, where he would have worked. He would regale people with the stories of what it was actually like working in the jail. Funnily enough, his ghost has manifested, or at least a smell of him has manifested in the certain area of the jail being by the hanging pit as it now stands near the old jolly hangman tavern. It's the smell of the tobacco, the pipe tobacco that he would smoke. So it's kind of that sweet, that sweet, smoky smell would sometimes waft across, especially in the mornings when people are opening up. And actually, just as we're locking up, seems to be something maybe that he's watching and saying, oh, I recognize the idea of locking up people, and I recognize the idea of maybe opening a cell or two during my time. So Richard Amos Doidge is one that has left his fingerprints all over the jail. In fact, so much so that now he is the host of the dark walk attraction in the jail. So his voice, or an actor pretending to be him, is kind of imprinting himself on people's minds, even now, telling them the stories of the jail. So it's almost a perfect, perfect continuation of this. This legend of the jail. Our biggest pair of executions, though, that we had at the jail, because it was public execution, it was entertainment with the Lightfoot brothers, William and James, who were hanged together in the 1840s for murdering Mister Neville Norway as he made his way home on the back of his horse. Neville was a merchant who, we always say, made his money honestly. So he was a reasonably well respected chap. And the Lightfoot brothers, well, one of them was working a place called Pencarrow House, not far from the jail, actually. They didn't think they were earning enough money, so they went to stealing to make their bucks. And they spotted Neville Norway flashing the cash without being too. Too brash. That sounds. I didn't mean for that to rhyme, by the way, in a pub in Bodmin, and they pretty much followed him home, jumped out on him, tried to scare him with a flintlock pistol, which wouldn't fire properly. So they beat him to death with the end of the pistol. It broke in half. In fact, it was that violent an attack, the gentleman died, his horse went all the way back home to Weybridge without him. Hence why they wondered, where on earth is the. The man in question? And after the police struggled to identify that it was actually nettle Norway, due to how badly his face was caved in and smashed by the end of the flint pistol, the Lightfoot brothers stupidly took half of that pistol home with them. So one half of the pistol was at the crime scene. And when the Met police came down to try and find out who on earth had done this horrible misdeed against this chap. One of the locals went, oh, the Lightfoot lads have. They've got half a pistol at their house. So it was very much a case of putting two and two together and the two chaps were hanged. A double execution outside the back of what is now a picnic area in the jail, believe it or not. And we had up to 40,000 people. Our biggest number of guests come to see that execution as a massive concert, essentially, it was a huge public spectacle, the Glastonbury of executions, at the back of Bodmin gaol. So those particular people, especially the lightfoots, put us on the map, I think, in regards to some rather less pleasant details about our jail.

Michelle: So what role and impact will you say that Bodmin Gaol has had in the area of Cornwall and continues to have today?

Joseph Carter: So Bodmin gaol, I think, locally, has been seen in many different ways, not always positively, but I think more and more so since the renovations and the investment, um, in the building, it's, um, starting to get. It's really starting to grab people's attention, um, because it is amazing down there now. The dark walk attraction is incredible. The way in which we tell the history, I must admit, is, um, I think, second to none. Um, and that's not just because I work there. That's the reason that I wanted to work there, in fact. But before it was, um, the attraction that it is now. It was a creepy building that was essentially empty, uh, in many of the cells. No roof, for example, pigeons asleep and roosting inside of the cells. And some terrible mannequins that are, quite frankly, more hilarious than actually educational or reflective of the real people in the jails who would have spent time in the jail now, once it was sold in 1929, the gentleman who brought it, Mister Lee, wanted to blow it up for building material, but it was too well built. So he turned it into a rudimentary London dungeon style attraction, essentially, where could see mock executions if you paid a couple of bob. And it's kind of repeated itself since then as a maybe dungeons style attraction in that sense, although it's more. It's much more serious in its approach, I think, to that. But it was a nightclub. It was also a casino. So in the last 100 years, or just less than 100 years, it has gone through so many different lifespans in such a short space of time, really. Of course, it was open for 150 years, but it must have left its mark locally. 35,000 prisoners were kept at the jail at one point or another. And we even know of local stories of people that would walk past the jail, even up until recently, and of course, long decommissioned, they would look at those gate like a big gatehouse entrance and say to their children, don't you ever end up in there? It's kind of sat there as a beacon of. A beacon of. Or a warning, maybe, to people that this is where you will end up as so many instances of people being hanged or being put in gibbet cages, for example, 200 years ago were that very thing. They were a warning. They were a preventative measure, maybe because the building is still so imposing. There's something deep in your stomach as you walk through that gate that makes you question whether or not you ever would commit a crime to end up in such a dark and rather imposing place.

Michelle: I think it's just incredible what you've been doing in terms of just bringing the voices of the past to the present. And I think we can learn so much through exploring our history. And places like Bodmin Gaol are just so cemented, I think, in terms of local stories and folklore and ghost law. And, you know, that has become something that I think, particularly in the United Kingdom and, you know, wider people are aware of. And so, again, I just think it's really wonderful that you are enabling people to really immerse themselves in the experience of what life would have been like if you were sentenced in Bodmin jail. But likewise, just bringing the stories of the people that were there to the audience, you know, really enabling them to truly understand their voice in a way that I think is very, very special and very, very powerful. I think, you know, it's something that people go away from with a much, much deeper, richer understanding. And I think that's so vital. I think that's so important in terms of preserving history and, you know, the heritage and the history of locations like Bodmin Gaol.

Joseph Carter: Absolutely. And without the heritage, without that history and without those real people, we wouldn't have our ghosts to talk about. You know, it'd be very hard to run a paranormal department without any sense of these people as human beings, not as. Not as demons, not as jokes or as kind of banshees. These are human beings that have made some very difficult decisions, maybe, that we would look at as mistakes, but we do not know their circumstances inside and out. I wish that I could go back in time and look at these people before they committed the crime, not to stop them, because I don't want to step on the butterfly that causes the end of the world. But just to observe the reality, we can only piece together their history through records that we sometimes have, sometimes just hearsay. Sometimes things have been passed like chinese whispers throughout the last couple of centuries. But there is usually a way in which the paranormal fills in that gap quite regularly. And that's when I think we need to be very careful. It's very easy to imprint your own hopes, potentially, or your own aspirations for these unfortunately dead people's stories and your own sometimes prejudices upon them as well. But we were not them. We will never be them. But we can at least try to bring them to life in some careful way. But, yeah, I'm very, very grateful that Bob Minjel is doing that, I think correctly. I'm not talking about the paranormal now. I'm just actually talking about the attraction. I think they're telling their tales in the best way that they possibly can. Because, of course, as an audience, people are very different to maybe how they were 50, 60 years ago in regards to visiting a museum. So that's why the immersive side of it is very important in grabbing hold of people's attention in this TikTok social media era, where maybe attention spans have shortened slightly. The jail does that quite cleverly, I think, without ever being too, too offensive.

Michelle: I think that was so well said. I mean, I just think you hit so many notes there that I just completely agree with in terms of just caring to tell the real history with none of the embellishments to really bring to light the authenticity and the. And the realness of these stories and. And what happened, because that's enough. You know, it doesn't need anything else. That's actually enough that care and attention to want to get that bit right. Yeah, it's incredible what you're doing.

Joseph Carter: Well, very kind of you to say so. Yeah, I'm actually blushing even though you can't see it. That's very kind. Thank you.

Michelle: So you've obviously mentioned briefly how, you know, a lot of time and effort and money has been put into Bodmin Jal in terms of, you know, preserving and repurposing the site for modern visitors, you know, whilst obviously retaining that historical significance. Do you want to just walk us through some of what has happened over the last few years in terms of really trying to bring the prison to life, to be able to be enjoyed by the public in the way that it currently is?

Joseph Carter: So there was around 65 million pounds worth of investment into the jail. It was a shell of a building and as I said, rotten mannequins, broken glass on the floor, and pigeons creating families and probably. Probably generations of pigeons inside some of the cells, when it was invested into a large portion of the jail, was given over to the hotel, which is a really interesting space. It is stunning. Yeah. And it's one of those jaw dropping moments when you make your way into the. Into the lobby. Into the lobby. And that was the civil wing. The whole of the civil wing is being given to the hotel, including almost two thirds of the naval wing, pretty much as well. And the cell? Sorry, the cells. The rooms that you sleep in were actually cells. There are three cells per room. So you are in the space of three people, because Bob Minjow was a single cell jail. So the idea that John Howard made sure that prisoners were kept in one single cell, even if you're a six year old boy or a six year old girl, and the youngest child we had was actually six years old, for being homeless in the jail, you would be in one cell. And the idea was that it meant that you weren't really given time to get up to things that maybe you shouldn't be doing or building certain alliances within the jail that could turn nasty for some of the wardens, let's put it that way. So the. The hotel has really delivered, I guess, the luxury and the history and the heritage side of things quite, quite beautifully. The strangest thing is having a shower in a cell, knowing that you wouldn't have had a luxury shower. Back in 1889, when that particular part of the building was built, for example, the museum was added onto the building, including as part of the naval wing. So when you go through the attraction now, which is kind of the sister to the hotel, who traveled through an immersive, absolutely, gloriously themed storytelling experience, really, that uses musing technology. It uses projection mapping and incredible audio to tell the tales of people like Selina Wadge and Sarah, Paul Green and the Lightfoot brothers and, of course, Richard doidge. And just actually, our local legends like the beast of Bobby Moore, we bring him or her into the frame a few times. Once they've been. Once your guests have been through the dark walk and been thoroughly, hopefully, impressed by it, you are then dropped into the bottom of the navel wing, and it's very dimly lit. You have all the original cells to go into. You can go into pretty much 50% to 60% of them. And in each of the cells, there's almost like a. Sometimes a small tableau or some kind of immersive hint of what or who may have been in these spaces. We carry on all. We are very. I think there's some poetic license, obviously, as to who may have been in those cells, because, again, 35,000 prisoners made their way through there, and some were only there for a few weeks or a few days. It wasn't the case that you're locked up for decades. One room, for example, one particular cell that you walk into has the smell of smoke. And that helps to carry on the story of Elizabeth Osborne, who set fire to a cornfield after the gentleman who owned that particular cornfield. We've got to be very sensitive here, but he potentially wronged her in some way. Now, we don't know the complete details of that, because maybe at that point in history, her story was one that they didn't want to delve too far into. But we know that he certainly did something rather bad to make her want to burn down his entire livestock or livelihood, rather. But, yeah, you get. You have a feeling or a sense of this person in the cell because of the smells and the sounds and the lighting. So it's very effective. Another thing is we have the administration wing. So you are making your way through the offices in which doctors, nurses, governors and wardens would have worked in meeting our beast. Yeah. Should have a fully full grown beast inside of one of the cages at the jail as well. So it's all done rather humorously as well. But the wonderful thing about the building itself and the attraction and the regeneration is it's just that palimpsest. It's like a document that's been rewritten over and over again and actually kept alive because the sounds, the smells and just the physicality of being in that building has been kept in some way. Even if it's a representative way, it's. Would have otherwise just ended up maybe being rubble because the jail was given six years to live before it was pulled down. So we're grateful it's still here in this particular way.

Michelle: You've previously briefly touched upon some of the reported paranormal activities and ghost sightings within Bodmin Gaol. Do you want to go into that in a little bit more detail? Are there any specific areas where these phenomena are frequently experienced? For example?

Joseph Carter: Yes, the courtroom is one in which we find kind of individual, organic experiences that are easily corroborated by the fact that it happens every week or every day that we run an event. Pretty much. The courtroom used to be the hospital wings morgue, and that has now been transformed into a theatrical space where we have a pepper's ghost effect. Funnily enough, a judge who sentences you to hang until dead at bottom in jail. So that's kind of the. The peak part of the dark walk experience. So the building itself is totally different inside of there. However, the smell of blood, the. The fact that there were bodies kept in that space, it seems to reoccur regularly that people will pick upon the same person or people. One particular lady is Selena. Sorry, my apologies. Is Sarah Palgrene. There's so many S's. But Sarah Palgrene committed murder, or petite. She was tried for petty treason, or petite treason because she murdered her husband, who was her superior at that point in history. He was quite an abusive chap, and she put arsenic in a pat of butter that he devoured and then died. Of course, from now, she was tried for petty trees, and therefore, she was hanged, drawn, and not quite quartered, but dissected. So the space in which she was dissected is the courtroom, we believe, pretty much in the dead center of that particular room. Now, one thing that we cannot explain, and Sana, who built the attraction, have been there with their audio engineers and their electrical engineers for six weeks at a time to try and work out why. Owners in the courtroom, when we mention Sarah's name, the entire place will just flicker and flash and come back to life. All of the lights above your head, the lights in the actual attraction building itself, and only in that zone, will become like a disco. And it's almost in response to some of the stuff we say, some of the questions we ask. We will get answers through the lights. And Sana should know what they're talking about. I mean, they're an amazing company that work with Universal Studios and Disney World and London dungeons, for example. They cannot get to the bottom of why we have this particular phenomena. And this is something that is so repetitive. And the name Sarah, Sarah Palgreen, the lady that pretty much was kept in there and dissected in there for medical. Not for medical experimentation, I should make that very clear, but for medical research purposes. Um, was, uh, obviously maybe has just left something in that space, and she doesn't seem to go. She. You know, we have asked her before if she wants to make her way out, way out of the building, but, um, it's almost like she is constantly demanding our. Our attention in that particular spot. Um, another one is that we have a gentleman by the name of Mister Shuffles. We've nicknamed him that because we don't really know who he is. And actually, it's sort of a little bit dangerous to start pointing fingers at real people. But this is some kind of entity or energy that seems to hate females. It regularly will rush them, undo necklaces, for example, and say horrible things to them, whisper in their ears some unmentionable, rather violent things. And it can have quite a bit of an effect on guests when we're running paranormal evenings, where they will sometimes hear this noise, this shuffling. And that's almost like the precursor to something very strange happening. Hence the name Mister Shuffles. It could be misses Shuffles, who knows? It might not be either of those. But we're very loathe to really say who it is. We have a suspicion it might be a prisoner, potentially by the name of James Holman, who murdered his wife. But yeah, who is this character? Somebody that seems to repeat themselves consistently nearly every week, something will happen in the same spot, and it's the same kind of sound followed by the same kind of activity, which is really, really exciting for us, because one of our most important things that we do on a paranormal investigation is not to plant seeds in people's heads, because that does my nutting, quite frankly. But this, our approach is to make sure that we don't mention ghosts when we give you a tour of the building initially, so that when you are actually in the dark with your equipment or just your own intuition, you are picking up on something organically. You're not, you know, you're not pre, you're not told before you go into the. The cavern that shuffles, or Mister shuffles, or a character that acts like this is often seen in here. Lo and behold, ten minutes later, somebody would have felt exactly that same thing because I planted that seed. So we don't do that. So it's really exciting when it's organic and repetitive as well.

Michelle: But I think that's so important what you just said, that necessity to have that kind of approach where you aren't planting seeds, where you are allowing things to happen organically because, you know, otherwise people start looking to confirm exactly what you've just said. And I suppose just to really highlight and emphasize that, you know, what would you say are the key principles, the key methodologies underlying the paranormal department and the investigations that happen at Bodmin Gaol?

Joseph Carter: So since July, when I took over, I made it very clear to anybody that was going to work with me and to my general manager and those above her that I wanted to ensure that we acted with some honesty. I'm somebody that I like to live in the skeptical quite often. And then if something happens that I can't explain. I'm humbled by that and I'm really grateful for that as well. But when we start to, as again, plant seeds or err on the theatrical during the actual investigations, that's something that I feel that doesn't have a place in actually any real paranormal investigation. Another one is integrity. For example, if we were also working and we knew that it was a flashing light from our air conditioning unit, or maybe that clicking, creaking, creepy noise in the corner wasn't a soul breathing its last, it was, in fact, again, air conditioning or a door that wasn't quite opening or shutting properly. Thanks to our brilliant automatic doors that we have in every single part of the dark walk that sometimes do just creak and clack and clip and almost sounds like somebody's stepping in the background, it would be really easy to give the guests that thrill and go, I don't know what that is. Is it a ghost? So, yeah, honesty and integrity, but also being curious and being unafraid to actually just talk to the darkness, I always make sure that even though we do have equipment like k 2 meters and Ouija boards and trigger objects, we, I always tell guests, please just turn off your phones, turn off your equipment and just be and sit in this old cell in this part of what was the hospital wing, you don't even have to try. Just try and be in the space and just see what happens. Just talk to the darkness for a while. You don't have to even say anything. And regularly, that is, is literally the most powerful tool that we have. Where someone will then come up with something quite profound and quite significant about that particular spot is then later I will go to that guest. Interestingly, you said that there, because that is where, you know, James was hung, or hanged, rather, or where we know that there was a murder that took place or a suicide that took place, or other guests have said the same thing about that particular spot. But I will never turn around then and say that was a ghost. And I will never turn around and say that it is not a ghost either. I think it's very easy for paranormal investigators to maybe give a bit too much rather than just stepping back a little bit and observing carefully what may or may not have happened. So, yeah, it's really important that we give people the opportunity to experience the jail without us giving them any confirmation as to what they've experienced is actually a ghost or not.

Michelle: If you've been enraptured by the chilling tales and enigmas unveiled throughout our podcast, spectral journey. Now's your chance to become an integral part of our ghostly congregation. You see, as we delve deeper into the mysteries of the past, we need your support now more than ever. But fear not, for there are a myriad of ways you can help keep the supernatural flames burning bright. Firstly, have you ever considered treating our podcast to a virtual coffee? Picture it a humble offering to fuel our relentless pursuit of haunted histories. Just head over to Ko fi.com hauntedhistorychronicles and join us for a caffeine infused seance. But thats merely the beginning of our spectral soiree. For those intrepid souls yearning for deeper communion with the paranormal, consider joining our exclusive Patreon family. From March onwards, our Patreon page will be a haven of clandestine content with weekly podcasts and daily long and short form offerings. Yes, you heard it right. Daily doses of the supernatural. A veritable paranormal advent calendar for your soul. So why hesitate? Journey forth to patreon.com hauntedhistorychronicles and become a patron today. But wait, the spirit of generosity lingers still. If you seek to flaunt your allegiance to the haunted history chronicles in more tangible ways, venture into our newly unearthed merchandise crypto. From mugs that whisper their secrets to clothing that echoes with ghostly laughter, our shop is a sanctuary for the discerning paranormal aficionado. Just visit teepublic.com and traverse to the Haunted History Chronicles shop page to adorn yourself with our spectral regalia. Whether it's bestowing a virtual coffee, joining our spectral society on Patreon, or donning haunted history chronicles apparel, your support keeps the ethereal flames alight. Remember, every spectral contribution fuels our pursuit of unearthly truths, propelling us ever deeper into the realms of shadows and whispers. So heed the call, dear listeners. The links to our spectral sanctuaries await in the shadows of the podcast description notes as well as our haunted haunts on social media. Dare to embrace the unknown, to journey deeper into the veiled corridors of history. For only together can we keep the ghostly embers glowing, illuminating the darkness with tales untold. Now let us return to the mysteries that beckon from beyond the veil. What spectres await? What secrets lie dormant, waiting to be unearthed? Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

Michelle: So how would you say you're trying to bring together, you know, the the linking of history and research with paranormal investigating?

Joseph Carter: So my background, what I threw myself into with my study, is hauntology, which is essentially the study of the past that still is lingering in the present. It could be that that's lost futures. It could be that you were promised something as a child that never happened, and therefore, throughout your whole adult life, you are still haunted by that. It could be actually even political ideologies or political movements that don't quite reach the heights that people expected them to, and they somehow feel hard done by that. Maybe, depending on whatever their political leaning is, it's something that's been applied to music literature, and I'm starting to apply it. I think maybe this sounds deeply arrogant, but I think I might be one of the first people to do it. It's either really stupid or really arrogant, one or the other. But this approach is to think carefully about whether or not it's you that is having this experience, or whether or not it's something external to yourself that is actually saying, look at me, or is it just the building that's saying, look at me? Maybe you're in a cell and you are imagining something that might have happened in that cell, but never actually happened in that cell. So, with hauntology, the approach is to kind of strip back on the televised kind of paranormal investigative stuff that you see, which kind of borders on being found footage, I think, sometimes. Like one of those Blair witch project style films. Yes. So the history of the building is absolutely paramount to that, because with, as Richard Felix, without dropping any names to me, uh, to you, rather said to me on the. A few weeks ago, he said, we don't have ghosts without history. We don't have ghosts without heritage. So I work quite closely with our heritage manager, for example. Um, she will often tell me, Joe, that didn't happen. Or by the way, I'll be careful about using this particular hymn, for example, in a Singapore experiment or familiar familiarization experiment, because we actually don't know if that person really sang that hymn or not. And so I'm always checking with either my general manager, with Bex, our heritage manager, also, I work with a chap by the name of Carl, who is a heritage guide, also a paranormal warden. So it's lovely to have a member of my staff that actually knows the building inside and out, so I can double check things or something times if I'm not 100% sure about it. So that's really keeping the historical integrity of what we do. But in regards to melding the history and the paranormal together, I don't even have to try, because it's already there. If I were to go into the paranormal investigation and for it to all be about me and all be about my experiences and not about the jail, then at that point, I've kind of lost the history. But the way in which we run it is for myself, Carl, for Jem, who's incredible, and Maddie, who's also another fantastic member of our team. They've all gone in to make sure that the jail is front and center, that that's the star of the show, and that is the thing in which people are paying attention to. And there, from there comes the absolute certainty that the history is going to be honored. While we were investigating, I think what's.

Michelle: So magical about what you just said is that you are just allowing the building to be front and center. Everything that it stands for is just front and center of everything, and there's just something very powerful and magical about that.

Joseph Carter: That is is magic. It's psychogeography in action. It's. It's hauntology in action. It is a space that has been broken and then rebuilt and then retold over and over again in different ways. Whether or not it's through a casino in which we had our striptease act moving around the tables with a large boa constrictor around our neck, around her neck, rather, and maybe around our necks as well. If we were sat in the. I don't know whether that happened. But the jail also has gone through all these different lifespans, and it's still there. It's still there underneath all of the showmanship and the high tech didgeridoos that we have all around the building and the soundtrack and the lighting. Beneath that lies the skeleton of what was there before. And we have to really make sure that we pay attention to it. And as you say, within the tuning into what was there before and yourself there in that kind of zone, in that weird, phantasmagorical space, lies. Lies the magic of the paranormal. I truly believe that, for example, even on the road in which I live, used to be a railway station. And you can see one tiny part of that old railway station that closed in 1955, the year my mum was born. But I was born in 1988. So it wasn't in my lifespan that that particular railway station was there. However, I am still aware of it. When I walk past, I can see that tiny bit of that old railway station and is that not a ghost? Is that not something from the past that's still saying something to me when I look at it. Even when you walk around villages where the families have never moved out, you've got six or seven generations maybe that have lived in that one house. Some of them long gone, but their faces still kind of remain through their children and through their offspring. And maybe, if it's a very small village, through some of the other families as well. People are kept alive through the faces of their descendants. And in many ways, the stories of the people who may have only been in the jail for a few weeks are still kept within those walls. One thing about the building is that if you ended up in jail, you were face to face with the thing that you had done. You are face to face with your past. So, therefore, is that not leaving something of a cultural memory, a collected memory space almost, of people's pasts, and therefore a building holds that within its walls. Maybe do interrupt me if I sound like a nutty professor, but that's literally, this is the stuff that I have to cope with on a day to day basis knocking around in my head.

Michelle: It's just so wonderful. I mean, it really is just exactly what you just said. I think that passion that you've got is so evident coming through in every single word that you're saying. And I think it's wonderful that that is what you bring to the public who. Who come and get to experience Bodmin gaol. And what is wonderful is that, you know, there are so many very exciting opportunities that you provide and you offer that you really are allowing people to experience and to, again, just allow Bodmin jail to be front and center and its history and its stories and the experiences. And again, I just think it's fantastic that there are so many people that are there passionately bringing Bodmin jail to life for people to experience, to be able to step in and explore and experience it for themselves and to make those connections with the past.

Joseph Carter: Definitely. What a thrill to just sit in that building at night. We're really lucky. Myself, Jem, Carl and Maddie often pinch ourselves and we'll go, I can't believe this is actually what we get to do. And I'm really. It's a dream. It is truly a dream and a privilege to be in that building late at night and to have it to yourself without sounding too greedy. You've got. You have the empty chambers of that. Of that building that somehow don't really feel empty at all. Even if you're on your own, you're not really alone, as it were, in that place. It's like an amanuensis, essentially, to the past, like a scribe to the past. And it's somehow just been all collected there in one big brain dump of a building. So, yeah, even if you know, for example, today I saw a child leg it out of the attraction because they were so frightened. And it's understandable. It's not particularly, you know, cheerful. It's certainly not Disneyland down there. It's more the haunted mansion at times. But the child was in floods of tears. And I thought to myself, in a weird way, that child's reaction to being in the jail is probably not dissimilar to that of one of the prisoners or many of the prisoners, maybe hundreds of the prisoners that made their way through that gatehouse entrance. In fact, one particular prisoner, Thomas, we know his first name, don't know his second name, sadly, was sentenced for to spend time at the jail. At the entrance, he bent down and pulled from his shoe a blade and slit his own throat and bled to death outside of the jail rather than stepping foot inside. It's all happened when the warden's back was to him. Now you wonder, what on earth did he do? How long would he be in that jail for? Just three weeks. That was the length of his sentence at the jail. Just three. Three little weeks. But he would rather kill himself than step inside. So is that not a kind of very weak version of that reaction? Of course. But that aversion to being in that space? It still does something to people, whether you're a child that's terrified by the loud music in the darkness or whether you're a prisoner that really thinks, oh, suga, this is where I'm going to be now, and I'm not getting out, potentially.

Michelle: I mentioned just a little while ago how you are really bringing these fantastic opportunities, these events and experiences for people to explore, to immerse themselves in. And one of the really amazing and exciting things that are coming up is the fact that Bodmin jail is hosting a Paracon event. Do you want to just to go into what the paracon is going to be, when it is, what kind of activities and discussions you know, attendees can expect?

Joseph Carter: Yeah, of course. So, yes. So, November 9, 2024, we're having our paracon, the first ever paracon at Bobmin Gaol, one of the few down in the depths of Cornwall. We have got some really, really exciting guests, and throughout the day, you can buy your day ticket, and you will have access to see every single one of these people talking about what it is they do, what it is they love, maybe what they don't love as well, you never know. But we'll have Evelyn Hollow from uncanny, amongst other things, of course, parapsychologist. We will have Doctor Kate Cherrill who is absolutely fantastic, and especially her interest and knowledge about victorian spiritualism and some of the charlatanism that maybe floated around in that as well, I think will be highly entertaining. But also, what a perfect setting, a victorian jail. We're hoping as well, Richard Felix will be coming to the jail to work with us as well, from most haunted. So I'm personally probably going to fangirl or fanboy when I see him. And we have Kev Kerr, who is a paranormal investigator, but is one which very much has. Has taken a sceptical route to investigating. So personally, I think that'll be quite fascinating, quite fitting. Another lovely thing about Paracon is that as well as working with these fantastic people, we'll also be working with Jamaica in again. And Karin, I'm sure I know you know of Karin. I'm sure many of your listeners will also know of Karin and Jem and the wonderful team Jamaica Inn. But there again is just a wonderful marriage that we've had now with Jamaica Inn because we are literally ten minutes away from each other by car, maybe even less if you really put your foot down. And we share a lot of history. You know, some of the people that escaped bobbin jail actually tried to break into Jamaica in once or twice. And I'm pretty sure that when these crowds came to see executions at bodmin jail, they may have stopped in for a few pints at the Jamaica Inn as well. So we have got lots of stuff going on. The whole the dark walk. We are going to turn into our paranormal village, basically paranormal marketplace. So we'll have exhibition spaces, people who are. Who have trade stands that are very specifically for the ghost lovers of this world. And we also will be letting folk into the basement for some fun as well. So the basement's an area which is actually completely out of bounds at the moment. We're basically. We're regenerating it. Well, I am at the moment writing a new attraction down there that isn't a scare attraction, believe it or not. It's actually a celebration or a theatre of the dead. So it's what I hope would be quite a apposite tribute to the people that lived and died. And their tales ended, of course, at the jail. So especially in regards to what we do every. Every night, I think we'll have a lot of material. Paracon will also have some. We also will have some special events. So we will have an Mister James storyteller in our champagne bar. So during the day, if you wanted to also buy a ticket to go and hear some wonderful stories from last century from one of probably the most famous ghost storyteller of all time, then that will be brought to life in a venue unlike any, really. I think for a ghost story in the evening we will also have a special investigation of the jail. So the team from Jamaica Inn, I know Kev Kerr will be there and hopefully some of the other guests as well. I think Kate, Cheryl was definitely up for investigating with us and with a select amount of the public. Lots of guests, lots of fun. And it's the first time we're doing it, so it's bound to be eventful and colourful and probably a little bit mad as well, but in the best possible way.

Michelle: But it's brilliant because what a. What kind of place is more fitting than Bodmin Gaol for something like this event in the United Kingdom? And we don't typically have these types of events come round very often, if at all. And what a fantastic location to be able to bring together some of the guests that you have and provide these types of experiences for people. And the fact that I think you are working alongside the Jamaica Inn is also brilliant because, like you said, you are bringing together two very wonderful and well known locations in Cornwall that really are part of Cornwall's history. And the fact that you are so close is just amazing that you are helping to enrich that experience. And again, at the same time, preserving the history, preserving the heritage of Cornwallis work as well. Not just Bodmin Gaol, not just the Jamaica Inn, but for Cornwall, I think that's really important.

Joseph Carter: Absolutely. And I, you know, to be honest with you, Karin from the Jamaica in paranormal team, amongst other things, and Jem Treadwin, who works with me now, they have both been instrumental in ensuring that locally we have almost like a care. We have almost a little care network where we're keeping an eye on each other, just making sure that things are going well. And it's almost like the tendrils under the moors from Bob Minjel to Jamaica Inn are now kind of intertwined now, which is lovely because. Yeah, absolutely. Hundreds and hundreds of years of history, shared history. And in the last year we managed to actually make it work. So we're really pleased about that, for sure.

Michelle: So we've obviously spent some time talking about Paracon. Do you want to go into some of the other immersive type experiences that Bodmin gaol has to offer?

Joseph Carter: Yeah, of course. So if we were looking at a typical week at the jail, we run ghost walks. That is the thing. We probably do more often than anything else in our world is telling people the story of Bodmin jail, its history, in particular its haunted or haunting history. So with the ghost walk, it's about 90 minutes long, the experience in total, and you will see everything from the very start to the very end. We literally end at the hanging pit, a real working hanging pit, only type of that particular pit, I believe, to the best of my knowledge, in the UK, that still actually works. I don't know why it still works. Maybe we're just saving it for a special occasion or something, or just to say that we have it. But with that, myself and Carl will run the ghost walk. So it'll be either of us or both of us, depending on what night of the week you're there. And it's a lovely way of just introducing people to, but potentially the areas of the jail they've been through as a day guest and suddenly looking at it in a brand new light, it's kind of like a twist of a heritage tour. We have a brilliant heritage team that do a tour at 09:00 01:00 03:00 every day. And the ghost walk is almost like putting a dark, spooky cloud over what they do. Borrowing a lot of what they do, actually, as Bex will definitely point out, and then retelling it with our own experiences and the experiences of others long before us, even centuries before us here in the jail. What I also do want, a Friday and a Saturday, is after dark. After dark is our guest really a showcase of exactly what the paranormal department is all about. So myself, Jem and Maddie, we will work those events where we take you into the jail. For the first part, the lights are on, but then the lights go completely out and you are given the opportunity in very small groups, actually, sometimes on your own if you'd like to, to be with equipment or without equipment, guided or unguided in the jail at night. And it's such a privilege, as I say, to be able to have the opportunity. And we'll do things like guided Ouija sessions. We'll guide you through all the equipment, sometimes do things like transfiguration. We'll. We often end the night with a lovely Singapore experiment or familiarization experiment where we lock you up in a cell and kind of recreate a moment in history just to see if that helps as a catalyst for any particular experience. Again, it might just be a creepy feeling that you have. But almost nine times out of ten, every time we run that experiment, something happens, either for us running the experiment or for the guests that we simply can't quite put our finger on. But after dark really is the ultimate paranormal event that we run and very, very proud of what we've done with that in the last ten months. Actually. It's gone through a lot of love and evolution, shall I say, because of course we're still learning what works and what doesn't work. But actually now the product is one that I'm very, very proud of and especially with our great team. The one thing that we do also run at the jail, which completely undoes virtually the last 45 minutes or however long I've been talking about honesty, integrity and curiosity. And that's lights out, which is the southwest's newest scare attraction. It is purely a horror show. It's horror theatre and it's about the other side of the paranormal world, which is there to scare you because there are some people that don't really want to invest their time in maybe tuning into the building on a, on a, in a paranormal, to a paranormal level. Others might just want to hear a spooky story in the ghost walk. And some people just want to be scared. And I'm one of those people because I regularly go to scare attractions. It's kind of, kind of my thing and I used to work on them. So I built one here at Bodmin jail with the help of Carl and Scotty, our tech wizard. And it's just been nominated or double nominated for the best new scare attraction in Europe and the best out of season scare attraction in Europe as well. So I'm absolutely over the moon with that. But we're going to be running that in the summer, heavily, and then in the Halloween season, of course, we'll be giving people again the other side of the paranormal, which is that totally and unashamedly theatrical side where we certainly do not, do not put our names to any kind of honesty, integrity, as I mentioned, designed to terrify the pants off you.

Michelle: Well, it's that the experience. It's that, like you said, it's the other side. It's you're catering for, for anybody in terms of what it is that they would like to get out of the experience. And that is experience that people like to enjoy. Exactly.

Joseph Carter: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, the jail is a business and I'm very, I'm very grateful of the fact that we've been allowed to do all these different things because actually we do have guests that turn up to this tourist attraction and go, is it like passage del Terror or is it like Halloween horror nights? Inside. And they're almost. They always want to have live actors jump out of them and scare them. Some people aren't there necessarily for the. For the. For the history, and we cater to all of those people, essentially. So whether you're a seasoned paranormal investigator, somebody that really wants to build a deep connection to the jail, or somebody that just wants to be chased by a prisoner through the naval wing in the pitch black with strobe lights and very loud music, it's all there for you.

Michelle: So how would you say, lights out? Kind of compared to other similar experiences.

Joseph Carter: So we're blessed with the fact that the jail has the amazing dark walk attraction. That's the first part of your experience if you come to Bodmin jail during the day. So we kind of took what was there and completely regenerated. Regenerated. That sounds a bit doctor who ish. We reinvented the dark walk. So it's a completely new soundtrack, completely new audio, which I spent many nights crying over, but it's there now and I'm quite happy it's there. We also built brand new visual elements throughout the entire attraction. So I designed new projections, new projection mapping, all that sort of stuff. It was a real undertaking, one that nearly. Nearly killed me. So the first half of the attraction is really purely about storytelling and building up this fiction. A fiction tale of a little ghost girl who takes over the jail and she kind of cracks into the attraction for revenge about, you know, for revenge to avenge her mother's death. Essentially, the second part of the event is a full blown scare maze. So the whole of the naval wing and the administration wing have been changed into a near pitch black, actor populated scare attraction. So in many ways, lights out kind of does a bit of what all scare attractions do, which is that maze element, that being chased by somebody in the dark element, but has thrown in a lot more theatrical world building, because it's a 36 minutes experience rather than most scare attractions, which you would spend, you know, 15 quid on and you would be out, in and out in five minutes. And maybe you've seen a few. A few mannequins flirting around. But, yeah, if it compares to other. Other scare attractions I've been to, it's very much borrowing from other people. I'm not going to lie. It's lovingly ripped off from some of my friends scare attractions. But we've absolutely honored Bodmin jail at the same time. It's all about what if something really mad happened in Bodmin jail whilst you're on a tour and the tour goes terribly wrong. So, yeah, site specific madness.

Michelle: So how can people take part if they were interested in lights out? I mean, you mentioned it's scheduled to take place over summer and Halloween is the information, etc. On the website.

Joseph Carter: Yeah, absolutely. So if you go on the web page, you will see all the dates for the Halloween period. Obviously people generally want to spare a. Spare a scare in October. But yeah, we have got our next upcoming date on June 15. And then all throughout the summer, I'll be running Thursdays and Saturdays. And then throughout October, all the bulk of the second part of October, we're running three days a week for a few hours every single night. So it's ten minute entry every ten minutes. You can enter the attraction and it lasts about 36 minutes in total. So yes, do come and experience it. I can't promise it's tasteful, but it's something.

Michelle: And like we've said, it's. It's another aspect, another experience. So it's giving. It's giving something that people may want. And again, I think that's what's brilliant about Bodmin gaol. There are just these numerous offerings to cater for what people would like to experience in a wonderful location, all the while enabling, you know, the jail itself to share the history, to share the location, to just let it sing and be this fabulous place that people come and enjoy. And I suppose just to kind of round things off. Coming back and thinking about those different offerings, how would you say those events that we've mentioned contribute to the mission of Bodmin jail in terms of preserving and sharing the history and the paranormal legacy?

Joseph Carter: If you love me, I think they've all started to help to shape where we see the jail going. I think in the future, for example, we've just brought out a paranormal package with the hotel, which is the first time, really that the hotel and the jail attractions, even though we're all very much interconnected, has actually kind of put come together and said, hey, let's work together and produce something. And it was. I'm very proud of the fact that it was the paranormal. It was the paranormal edge to that package that kind of cinched the deal, as it were, and made us start working together more closely. I think really those. The events that we have running at the moment are a way to introduce people to the idea of Bobman jail as well. Say that I wasn't particularly interested in history, which thankfully I am, but I wanted just to be scared. I would book a ticket to lights out and probably afterwards look at the building that I've just wanted walked out of and is not a shed in a field in the middle of October on a farm. Like, you know, many scare attractions are. It is genuinely the bricks and the heart and soul of what existed there that you've made your way through. You will see that. You will see the whole of the neighbour wing, the whole of the civil wing before you with this beautiful administration building. So it's kind of unignorable at that point. Maybe then that would encourage you to come back and do something during the day and to learn more about the true nature of the space rather than the theatrical nature. One thing that always really, really excites me at the start of any paranormal tour or paranormal activity. Sorry. The after dark, for example, is when I say so. Welcome to after dark. I'm Joe. Have you been to the jail before? And people will go, no. They've literally come here to have a paranormal experience. They don't know that much about the jail sometimes at all. And throughout the evening they've left almost like a mini heritage guide. They know bits and bobs about the jail that would baffle and surprise their friends and family when they bring them back. So many people say, we're coming back. And that's one wonderful thing about. About the building and about the products. Everything acts as a way of bringing life to that building that otherwise would stand dormant now. So whether it's us in the paranormal team or whether it's the heritage team, we're still fighting a way to make sure that people know it's there and that it's so incredibly special. Everybody that works there, I think, is genuinely under some kind of magic spell that that building has cast on us. And sometimes it's painful. It's the labour of love. Mainly. It's something that we all kind of celebrate because many of us are beautiful oddballs that have been brought together by this place. And it kind of calls the right people. I think sometimes you usually find there's a certain type of person that ends up working there.

Michelle: But I think you are so right. I mean, there's something about Cornwall just in itself, that has this magic kind of fog that just keeps you wanting to go back. There's something very enticing about the whole of the landscape, the whole of the area. And Bodmin Gaol is just one of those locations, you know, that are part of Cornwall that, again, it's almost like this siren song. And I think the fact that you are raising the profile and you are providing these offerings, you know, just that ability to plant Bodmin jell into the consciousness of someone else who maybe doesn't know very much about it to begin with. It is then that kind of repeat experience because you can't help but not come away having not fallen in love with the building and just utterly in awe of the history and the, the size and the scope of the, of the location. And again, I think once you've had an experience like that, the atmosphere, being able to immerse yourself in the building and the very fabric and the very bones of it in whichever manner you first kind of enjoy the location, it is just one that just grabs hold of you and, yeah, you just. It's just one that just stays with you. It resonates. And I think it's brilliant that, you know, you are allowing people so many opportunities to, like I said, just plant it in the consciousness of someone to keep sharing the stories of the place, to share it with other people, to bring it to life. It's.

Michelle: It's phenomenal, in fact.

Joseph Carter: Yeah, well, as you, as you, as you've said there, um, that's the whole reason I work there. And that's the whole reason I ended up working there. I'd gone in February last year for the very first time visiting the jail. Often people will look at me as, as paranormal manager and they'll say, Cobb, bet you've seen a lot of stuff at this place. And they'll, they'll just assume that I've been there for decades or for at least five or six years. That's not the case. I'm not going to lie to people and pretend I have. I've literally only been there as a paranormal manager since the end of June last year. However, the reason that I ended up there and applied for a job, just happily working in the ticket desk, I wasn't even, you know, aware of what would happen next was because I visited with my mum on a very rainy February day and made use of the locals discount. When we walked in, we were just astounded. We couldn't quite believe that this was here and this was in Cornwall and this was down our road for 40 minutes. Down the road, to be precise, not quite down the road. And I left gobsmacked. My mum and I, who go everywhere together, we sat in the jolly hangman tavern and had a cup of tea and we were just almost staring at each other, like, can you believe what we've just been around? We had no expectation, we had no idea that it was there. And so many of my neighbors don't actually even know it's there. They don't really know what's going on in there. They've heard of it, but it's then got hold of me and it becomes, as for so many of our staff, not necessarily an obsession, but just a part of your fabric and a part of your DNA. And we're all very lucky that we can keep. We can turn up there every day and go to work and shut those big doors at the end of the night. Yeah, magic.

Michelle: And, you know, it's just, I do.

Joseph Carter: Waffle on, don't I?

Michelle: No, not at all. Honestly, I just think it's part of the spell that the place has that it just makes people so fabulously passionate about it. And I think it's wonderful when someone has just that real kind of love for where they work and the history of the location and the stories of the location and all these experiences that we've been talking about. I mean, what better thing can you have in life if you, if you get to go and do that every single day in a place that you love? I think it's incredible. And the fact that you are bringing that same passion to other people is just phenomenal. So thank you for kind of giving up your time to share all that Bodmin Gaol has to offer to people, maybe, who have very little knowledge of the location, maybe a small amount or none at all, or for those who love the place but still want to hear what new things are coming, you know, coming into the jail and what it's offering, you know, thank you for kind of sharing all that you have to today in the podcast. And, you know, I will say that I'll make sure that all of the descriptions for the jail will be on the website as well as in the podcast description notes. Because all these different events that we've mentioned are on your website. They are experiences that people can enjoy. And if people want to take part in these, you know, they are affordable, they are fantastic experiences. And like you mentioned, you know, you really do get something of real quality. It's not just a quick in and out 15 minutes feeling rushed. You really have these fabulous immersive experiences that just allow you to really engage with Bodmin Gaol and allow it to just weave its little magic spell over you. And you know, I encourage anyone to. To explore Bodmin and Cornwall and the jail, you know, some of the places that we've mentioned, because it helps to keep the story of the location alive and to keep it thriving. And I think there's nothing better than that. So I will make sure that all of that is readily available for anyone interested in taking part in what's coming up over the next few months.

Joseph Carter: Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed.

Michelle: And I will say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody.