Bristol Historical Buildings With Norman Routledge

Speaker A: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. Before we introduce today's podcast or guest, if you like this podcast, please consider leaving a review. It costs nothing, but it helps share news of the podcasts and guests I feature with others interested within the paranormal. It's a simple and easy way to help the podcast continue to grow and be a space for people to chat and come together. If you haven't already found us on the Haunted History Chronicles website, Instagram, Facebook or Twitter, you can find links to all social media pages in any of the notes for an episode. Come and join us to get involved and gain access to additional blogs, news and updates. And now let's get started. Introducing today's episode. Joining me today is Norman Rutledge. Norman is the driving force behind Bristol historical buildings with the aim of renovating and bringing to life some of Bristol's important heritage buildings to not only bring back the splendour of the buildings, but to also ensure they have viable sustainable futures and become vibrant centres for the enjoyment and amenity of the wider community. Norman and his team have been working with a number of prominent historic buildings in Bristol, both past and present, including St Michael on the Mount Without, King's Western House and the Lamp Lighters, as well as a 19th century chapel. St Michael on the Mount Without is a grade two 18th century church now in the center of Bristol, originally without the city walls. Although the clock tower dates back to the 15th century, the rest of the building was rebuilt in the mid 18th century. It was boarded up in 1999 and then its roof was almost completely destroyed in an arson attack in 2016. The effects of this fire can be seen preserved on the walls inside to this day. Norman acquired the building in 2019 and major works were carried out to rebuild the roof, lower the crypt and fully refurbish the interior of the whole building for it to be able to function as a beautiful event space for the community. We were able to chat about this incredible location, as well as King's Western House, a grade one 18th century Georgian mansion that was in need of major investment in 2013 and was nearly on the at risk register when it was taken on. Norman's passion to save historic buildings and ensure they are enjoyed by as wide an audience as possible is evident. And with four significant projects under his belt, he brings vision, experience, heart and humour to his work. So get comfortable and let's find out a little bit more about him and what he does.

Speaker B: Hi Norman, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker C: Hi Michelle. Great stuff.

Speaker B: Do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Speaker C: It's mixed and varied. Was born in Kenya, grew up in Chipping, sodbury went to North Staff's Poly, worked at RollsRoyce for twelve years ran a restaurant fairly badly for a couple of years, joined Cannon Security for two weeks and 16 years later I was still working there. Then the boys who worked for me took over and I went off to do King's Western House. We took that on when it was nearly on the at risk register, had a great time there, lived there with lots of great friends and refurbished that. Did the Lamp Lighters, put a roof on that and turned that back into a community pub, put the roof back on St Michael on the Mount, put a spring dance floor in lower, the correct floor and here we are.

Speaker B: I mean, you say those things as those are easy things, but these are incredibly historic, important buildings that you took on and have invested a lot of time and a lot of money into to help refurbish them. I know that you are the founder and the chair of the Bristol Historic Buildings. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker C: Well, that was set up when we were still at King's Western House and I was talking to executives from Bristol City Council and at the time there were various projects going on. One was Jacobs Wells Baths, which we put a consortium together to try and get, but failed. And the other was Ashton Court, which has been derelict for 50 years. And it just seemed more appropriate than going in as some diddly squat little oik like me. It ought to be better as a charity and a trust. And so we formed Bristol Historic Buildings.

Speaker B: The aims, I think, are pretty obvious. You're going in to try and restore and preserve buildings that otherwise would be completely becoming derelict and might possibly be lost. Are there any particular things that you look for in a property besides those kind of criteria? Is there anything else that you try and look for as a building within Bristol to try and bring back?

Speaker C: It's more been fake than anything, to be honest, Michelle. I was looking for a project when King's Western House came along and my nephew James went out with one of the girls who ran the cafe there and he said, oh, there's this big old building, come and have a look at it. And fell in love with it immediately. And projects have just sort of fallen into place since then. But in a building, it has to have some character and it has to have, rather than just doing it up for the sake of doing it up, it's got to have a purpose and it's got to have sustainability and it's got to have a life. So it's got to be viable. There's no point for me in just doing something up and letting it sit there. It's got to be like king's Western was loved by lots of people and used by lots of people, and people like the Lamp Lighter's Pub and simply love the Mount without, so it's got to have that purpose and some real old character to it.

Speaker B: I think it's incredible because when you see buildings like this and they are dotted all around the country, you see these wonderful old properties that have at some point or another, or for a long time been really much part of the community. And sadly, things happen that sometimes mean that they just fall by the way, nobody's there to kind of help manage them, keep them going, and they can quickly become something that really is a former shell of what they used to be. And that's terribly sad. So the fact that you are pouring in that love to try and bring back some of these properties is incredible. It's brilliant what you're doing.

Speaker C: I think, well, there could be worse jobs in the world.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But I know that there can be difficulties with it. I mean, just thinking within my local area, we have a lot of military land because we're close to an RAF base and we had a really old pub and it sat on military land. And when it stopped being used as a pub, it literally just sat there and people tried to buy it in order to help bring it back to what it was. It was falling into rack and ruin. You literally had things growing all over it and around it. But because of those barriers, that red tape, nobody could get in and do anything until the point it was so dangerous, it was so derelict. The only option that needed to happen after that was, sadly, it being pulled down.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker B: And this is where you can really see something being lost, something that's been there for a very long time, just suddenly no longer there, and just this empty, vacant spot. Because, again, sometimes the difficulties can then mean that people can't then put anything on top of it after it. And it's just sad when you see those things happen.

Speaker C: I think completely agree. But the listed building process, which is my biggest bugbear, was brought in in the try and save buildings like that. And in reality now, I firmly believe that it does more damage than it does good. It nearly made me give up with the Mount without, and it certainly didn't help me at King's Western House. And I believe that the guys there in historic England who are nice guys and who mean well, should really have an ethos of how can we help you to save this building? Instead, it seems to be, how can we put as much red tape in the way to stop you saving these buildings?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's where it's a real shame, because it's no small thing that you've done. I mean, just thinking about St Michael on the Mount, it was completely burnt out and that's a lot of work, that's a lot of bringing something back when it's in that kind of state. And when you have, then other barriers and other things trying to block that process. That's painstaking, isn't it, really? It's difficult.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's hard enough as it is. And for the job to be doubled with red tape and bureaucracy and time delays because there were almost every week I wanted to say to the conservation planners, what do you think we ought to do about this? But I knew as soon as I mentioned it, it would be, well, we're not going to tell you anything. Put it on a drawing, get your architect to put it on drawing, give us a couple of options, and in two to three months we'll tell you what we think we agree with or don't agree with. In the end, I just had to keep going, otherwise the whole project would have stalled and failed.

Speaker B: I'm glad you persevered, I really am. Do you want to just tell us about some of the history of these properties? Do you want to start with Kings Western? Because, I mean, it's an amazing building, like you said, very much loved. I'm fascinated to hear some of the history behind.

Speaker C: Oh, well, when it was built, designed by Sir John Vambra, who designed Blenheim Castle and many other magnificent buildings 300 years ago, it really was a great building for the city. The Southern family who had it built were friends with the King, they were all members of Parliament and successions of very wealthy people that had it built. So the money was immense then, but even then, 50 years after Vambra designed it, it was fundamentally changed by the descendants of robert Sutherl was the original guy who bought the property, hugely changed. And it's changed many times in its lifetime. To evolve and survive and needs to keep changing, it needs to be viable and times change. So the building needed to change with it. But it's got a whole history. It failed when people didn't like these old buildings. Bath School of Architecture had it for a long time after the Subtle sold it. The police had it for 25 years, until 1995, and then it was boarded up for five years before John Hardy took it on. And he did a lot of great work with it. He went bankrupt in 2011. Twelve. And that's when we were lucky enough to take it on. So it's got a whole checkered history of its own.

Speaker B: Do you have any particular nooks and crannies within the building? Favorite architectural points or pieces that are part of that building that are still there, that you just when you kind of see something and it just gives you that reminder of how it used to be used or that it's part of the bones of the building that just were real kind of pleasure points for you of that's just something I could look at every day or enjoy and appreciate for what it was.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. So there were 17 of us that lived there. We lived on the top two floors and the central staircase. We didn't often use it, but occasionally we were naughty and would really enjoy coming down that central staircase, which wasn't an original feature of the Vambra building, but it was just magnificent and just looking out through the front doors. If you open the front doors from the portrait gallery with its ceiling height of about 30ft, that was something a bit special. And almost every day we would sort of go, well, someday somebody's going to find us that us oiks are here and kick us out. But till we left, nobody actually did that to us. So it was great.

Speaker B: There's something I kind of echo what you just said. There's something really rather grand and special. When you can kind of descend some of these very impressive staircases that these buildings tend to have, you really do feel like you are, I don't know, lord or lady, really rather grand and important.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: You can't just help but feel like you are stepping back into those shoes of people who would have done that in the past, making that grand entrance somewhere by stepping down those same steps. I mean, they are very impressive.

Speaker C: I totally agree with you. Just the whole building was way above anything we should have been allowed to play with, but good to be part of keeping it alive.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

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Speaker B: We've mentioned the church. St. Michael. The mount. I'm really curious because it has a very interesting name. Do you know why it's called the name that it is? You know, this kind of tag on part of on the Mount Without. Does that have any significance?

Speaker C: Oh, yes, it does. So it was originally called St. Michael the Archangel on the Mount without We've chosen it to call it the Mount Without because that originally was quite a long name for a venue. But it was outside the city walls, so it's up high, as you know. So it's raised, so it's on the Mount, and it was without the city walls. So it's outside the city walls. And it was only when merchants started moving outside the city walls and up St Michael's Hill and on that they knocked the original church down, the original 1450s church. They knocked the main body of the church down and rebuilt the current size of the church in the 1750s, leaving the original clock tower, but putting the much bigger church in its place.

Speaker B: Wow, that's incredible. I think that speaks volumes to not only the building, but also the location and how everything else has moved and grown and how this one property then has kind of changed as a result of that absolutely, really intriguing history. Likewise, thinking about this location, are there places and things that you just loved restoring or being able to keep as part of that restoration? Because, like what I've said before, it was completely derelict, it was completely burnt out, so we're talking a lot of refurbishment needed to try and overcome that damage.

Speaker C: I think the best part of it was putting the roof timbers on. We had a young guy in his 30s who'd miraculously been trained to do these massive great timbers and joists and things, and I kept wondering at how somebody so young knew how to do it so well. But he put all the big timbers up for us and just seeing those going in, we had to crane them in. But seeing those go in and just fit like a glove, even at 6 meters long, he was making better joints than I could at six inches long, and that was a joy.

Speaker B: Must have been really rather special to see that happening, that process, because when you see a building not looking quite complete, when you look up and you're seeing the sky, to then suddenly have this roof and it's feeling very much contained and whole again, that must have been so satisfying, seeing that come together.

Speaker C: It was. I mean, it was a tough old journey. When we lowered the floor in the crypt, we moved probably 300 tons of soil and bricks and rubbish and stuff out of the crypt by hand in tubs out to the St Michael's Hill. So that was a tough old job. But the Stonemasons, who came and relayed the tombstones in exactly the same place, but 600 mil lower when they'd done that, just seeing that go in was, wow, this is proper. This is something quite special. At Wills, the Stonemasons are just brilliant and they made a fantastic job of it. So when we saw that going in, then Spiralux helped us fit the lighting in the crypt and just now, everybody seems to love it. So that's amazing.

Speaker B: I think projects like that can be satisfying for everybody involved because I think these are such important buildings and when you get the right people coming in to help as part of that restoration, I think they put as much love in as everybody else. And it can sometimes really then be this kind of team approach can't it with everybody really pulling together to get that outcome that everybody wants, of really just bringing it back to something special and pouring that love and attention and time and care into all the details that it needs. And it sounds like you've had some great people along the way as part of doing precisely that with the different projects that you've had.

Speaker C: That's the best bit, when I can stand there and think, I wonder how this would work. And then these guys come in and they're just experts in their field and they're craftsmen and they just grab hold of it and take you to somewhere that you never would have thought yourself, and they just do stuff. You stand back and go, wow, that makes it so much easier, so much better. And the end result is something that, as you say, everybody who's been involved can be proud of.

Speaker B: And I think there's nothing kind of more special when you're in that kind of a property, just being able to see how light comes through with stained glass windows and I think they're really magical. And the fact that you've been able to bring that back so that it hasn't been lost and some of those original features haven't been lost and again, it's just fantastic that you're taking that time to do that for Bristol, for these properties.

Speaker C: Well, as you know, it's been a lot of luck. It was a hard fight to get King's Western House, but there was a lot of luck involved and it was third time lucky getting St. Michael's, but was lucky enough to be able to do you know, I'm grateful for all of that, but there's been a bit of work going on in the so it's all worked out well. It's all worked out well. And at the moment, just the way that Michelle Yetzer is running the venue is, you know, we're doing all sorts of things down there and all sorts of people enjoying the building. Quite a few people have said it's on a lay line, so they come in and just tell us that the feel of the building is just something really special. And so that was lucky as well, I guess.

Speaker B: I think it's just seeing it being used, seeing a building being used and loved and being part of that community again. And I think that's what you're doing, and I think that's why it's so fantastic to see something like that happen, because these are buildings intended to be used. This was the purpose of them. And when you see them empty, we know that feeling when we step into our own homes. If we've been away on holiday or something, or after a long day of work, they feel empty until you kind of stamp your presence back on them. They warm up and when you have abandoned old derelict buildings, it's just very sad. They were intended to be used and the fact that they are becoming part of the community again, I think is just joyful. It puts a smile on my face.

Speaker C: That's sweet.

Speaker B: Do you have any future projects? I can imagine that there's lots of places that kind of make you look and think possibilities and so on and so forth, but do you have any kind of that you're looking at at the moment or looking at for the future, possibly?

Speaker C: Well, after getting halfway through St. Michael's, I vowed that I would never do a listed building again until the process was changed, so that the guys responsible felt that it was their duty to help rather than to hinder. I thought, I will never, ever put myself through that. But been talking to a few people this morning, somebody from Trinity and our local impermanence dance group that the guys who did Hotwells, who got the bid for hotwells baths five years ago, have pulled out. The roof there has gone, the sprung dance floor has gone, the tanks that held the water have burst. And so that's come back onto the scene. So you never know, we might get talked back into. And that's a wonderful building as well. There's no way that should be allowed to go to anything other than the community wonderful venue, so that might help. We might get talked back into something.

Speaker B: It must be devastating when you have put so much time and effort in trying to secure a property or like you say, if things come along and hinder that process, when really all you're trying to do is help or you're champing it the bit to kind of help. And then the difficulties that like we've kind of talked about and touched upon, how they can really be quite demoralizing and difficult. So I can understand the hesitation. But I think it's something that if you love it, it probably naturally creeps around every so often, even though you've got those scars from oh, my gosh, that was such a headache. It must still creep around, because I think you've probably got a natural love of history. And I don't think that is something that can ever be taken away.

Speaker C: Don't say these things, Michelle. I was going to lie on a beach for the next five years. Unfortunately, you're possibly right. Not that we'll admit it. Who can tell? Who can tell?

Speaker B: Who wants to lie on a beach? You get sand in places that you shouldn't and sunburn and all of these things. Instead you want a nice, creaky old building that you can slide down the banisters and enjoy looking through stained glass windows and so on and so forth. That sounds much more pleasurable than a beach.

Speaker C: Weirdo.

Speaker B: Well, I've been told that a few times. That's definitely true. I think what is so evident, though, is just that passion, like I've said, that passion for history. And I suppose as part of the restoration process in helping restore some of these buildings? Are there people or sources or things that you look at to try and kind of aid that process? When you are tackling a big project and trying to be mindful of things and so on and so forth, are there places and sources that you use to help kind of bring those things together?

Speaker C: I've certainly found it useful collaborating with people. It's a funny old thing. You've got to be pig headed and stoic and go for it and don't care because otherwise it will put you off. But if you get the opinions of a few other people, it generally guides a better solution. And over the years, certainly, as I've mentioned before, having trades guys who know what they're doing, who've been there, done it, is just inspirational, so would continue to do that. But every project is different and every project needs different skills. And so the biggest crime that Bristol City has ever committed is to allow Ashton Court to still, 50 plus years later, be 75% derelict. That's just criminal.

Speaker B: It's sad. Yeah. And I don't understand why sometimes councils don't step in in the way that they can and should to help more, because it can't be in their interest to have them get to that state either. And that's what I always find really weird, that they don't step in, that they just let them get to that place. Because if we're just talking about possible earnings that can be brought back to that area, people coming through footfall, that has to be beneficial for a town or a village or a big city, and yet they can really sit on their heels and do nothing, which is awful. It's really sad.

Speaker C: It is really sad and I think it's because it's not in their psyche. They really don't know what to do with this big building that's listed that's going to give them no end of grief. And they've already been burned by the Bristol Beacon, which has doubled in cost because it's a listed building and all sorts of other reasons. But this is just going to hurt. And they've done a few surveys to find out what they could do with it. Spent 80 grand on a report that's sitting on a shelf, because I think it's just too outside their comfort zone and nobody's got a solution.

Speaker B: And again, I think if they've taken that time, I suppose that's where you can then see the dilemma. If they put in efforts and they encounter the same problems and the same red tape, and then time and effort and money has been for nothing. And they do have finite resources and they do have people who maybe don't have the same kind of ability to put that time and attention into it. It's a big project and like you said, I kind of echo. I think sometimes they don't know what to do. But there has to be a solution because not everywhere has someone stepping in, able to give that time, that attention, that money, that space that is needed to try and do something about it. And again, I don't know what the answer to that is, but there has to be some kind of change, I think, to really kind of aid this process of what needs to happen to some of these buildings so that they don't end up just completely being torn down.

Speaker C: I totally agree, but for, say, the government current sorry, the current mayor, it's not top of his list, it's not even on his list. And if he makes a decision and it backfires on him, he could lose votes. And if he doesn't do anything, it just stays under the radar. So it's safer not to do anything than it is to do anything. The fact that he could save one of Bristol's most iconic buildings just doesn't register and he doesn't have a solution and is not prepared to risk anything.

Speaker B: No, there always seems to be other factors. And what's really sad is then that sometimes it can be more advantageous for them to be taken over by property developments who do turn them into buildings and flats or something else, because that gives the money back to the council or the people who own that land. And again, that's where you just think, it shouldn't be like that. That's not where people's minds should be going. But I think sometimes it's the easier route out of something that they just don't know how to fix or how to deal with.

Speaker C: I'm sure you're right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And again, that's where I just think there has to be I don't know, there has to be something, there has to be easing of the process or something to try and aid restoring these love buildings. Because I do think every location up and down the country has a building like this tucked away, either visibly or out of the way, that, sadly, is just being lost to time. It's just sitting there.

Speaker C: I'm sure you're right. It must be hundreds and hundreds of them, which is a real shame.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. As I say, I just think it's incredible what you're doing, and it's one that I'm going to enjoy seeing. If you take on another project in the future, if you end up somewhere on a beach enjoying some sun, I'm hoping the first option, but I don't blame you if you need a break.

Speaker C: Okay. Michelle, sorry to have waffled on, but.

Speaker B: It'S incredible to chat with you and to kind of hear more about that process. And I kind of hope that people come and see these buildings, come and see them, see the work that's been put into them, and maybe take part in some of the things that are happening there and encourage people to do that. Because it's just joyful that you've opened them up by going in and just helping restore them.

Speaker C: The.

Speaker B: Way that you have so that they can be used again. So I hope people really do come and enjoy them now in the way that they're supposed to be.

Speaker C: That's very kind of you. And certainly, so far as I say, with the work that Michelle's done, we're busy six or seven days a week down at the church and everybody seems to really enjoy it down there. So it's all been worthwhile.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's incredible. Worth the blood, sweat and tears. Anyway, thank you so much for your time, Norman, to come and share some of this. And I'll make sure that we put out details for things like the Bristol historic buildings on the website so people could just kind of see what you've done and say, maybe come along and see some of these buildings and so on, because that would be brilliant. That would make me smile, too.

Speaker C: Happy days. That's brilliant.

Speaker B: Thank you so much.

Speaker C: Thanks, Michelle.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker C: You take care. Cheers. Bye.

Speaker A: I just wanted to take a quick moment to say thank you for your continued listenership and just to give you a little idea of what is ahead over the next few weeks as part of some upcoming podcasts, you can expect reports and discussions around haunted locations such as Bodmin Jail, an interview exploring the role and firsthand experiences from an Anglian Deliverance minister who has everyday experiences of investigating poltergeists, ghosts and other supernatural phenomena. We have an interview with Andy the Highlander, an actor in the second season of Outlander who now conducts tours across Scotland. He came to chat about some of Scotland's dark history and ghostly encounters. We also have a deep dive into the life, crimes and trial of Elizabeth Bathury by attorney, legal historian and author Professor Kim Kraft. We have some exciting and interesting updates about the Jamaica Inn and much, much more. So make sure to keep listening and following the social media pages for some of those updates.