Christmas Ghosts by the Firepit: Tales with Owen Staton

Transcript

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past. 1.

Ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:37

Picture this, a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics.

1:03

From ancient legends to more recent enigmas, we're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

1:19

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

1:38

So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

2:02

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where the shadows of history come alive through story.

2:19

As the nights draw longer and the chill of winter sets in, what better way to embrace the spirit of the season and by gathering round for ghost stories.

Joining me today is Owen Stayton, a master storyteller whose voice has brought the ancient legends and ghostly tales of Wales to life.

2:40

Owen has travelled the world, sharing his passion for myths, legends and the spectral world beyond.

So make yourself comfortable by the warmth of your own fire, maybe with a hot drink in hand and prepared to be taken into a world of wonder, mystery and just a hint of chill in the air.

3:02

Because Christmas isn't just a time for joy and laughter.

It's also a time to remember that the shadows of the past are never far behind.

Gather close.

Christmas will soon be here, and Owen has some tales to tell.

3:25

Hi, Owen.

Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Thank you very much for having me.

Do you want to start by just introducing yourself to the podcast listeners and giving a little bit about your background, Owen?

Yes, of course.

3:41

My name is Owen Staton.

I'm a storyteller.

I'm the host of the Time Between Times podcast, which is a storytelling or a storytelling podcast all about stories and soul.

It's all about gathering at the fire plates at the heart of the forest at the Time Between Times, ready to tell tales.

4:00

I tell lots of old stories, old ghost stories, old Welsh legends or stories from all around the world really.

And my background, I'm a storyteller, performer, a former police officer believe it or not.

And I'm, I'm someone who's always had an interest in the supernatural in strange, weird stories, but also from a well-being angle as well.

4:24

So my podcast is all about learning to relax and just lose yourself in a story.

And yeah, that's me, essentially.

So what kind of first do you then to the the kind of the aspect of telling Welsh stories and Welsh myth, Welsh myths and legends and and ghost stories?

4:43

What drew you to those types of stories initially?

It's a weird 1, Michelle, but it's a, it's a good story actually in itself.

Many, many years ago, I started doing some performing work as a, as a Roman soldier or a Celtic warrior in museums and, and places like that around South Wales.

5:03

And as a Roman soldier, I got good legs.

I could pull it off.

You know, I used to be in there and the teachers would bring kids in and I'd have about half an hour's worth of material in order to perform for these, for the visiting children.

And I talk about life in Rome and the sort of houses the Roman soldiers lived in and, and the Roman uniform and all this type of thing.

5:24

But it got to the point where teachers would come in and go, right, you've got them for an hour, have you?

And with my half an hour of material, I, I had to make something up.

So I started to tell, you know, stories from Roman myths or Greek myths or Celtic myths.

And that's how it sort of grew really.

5:41

But I, I was thinking about this today because I was putting something together and I can remember the exact moment when I became sort of obsessed with Welsh ghost law in particular, and old myths and legends.

And it happened on an old college trip to North Wales where we were staying in a Welsh language sort of Learning Center.

6:03

And we had day trips out to certain places.

And we went to a place called Saint Deguyne's Church in North Wales.

And being a 17 year old boy who drunk too much the night before, I wasn't particularly interested in having a look around the church.

But there was an old fella who was showing us around and in the middle of the churchyard there's an old Yew Tree that's apparently about 3 or 4000 years old.

6:27

And he sat on the Yew Tree and he could see that we were all bored.

And then he turned around and he said, do you know there's a ghost in the church, don't you?

And he told us a story called The Anglo Star, which is a story I've done on my.

Podcast many times and it terrified me.

6:44

And it awoke me, you know, it woke me to the the power of storytelling, if you like.

It made me come alive.

And I met and imagine the way that you could make people feel just by telling a good story.

And from that point on, I've always been a storyteller.

7:01

I've always told stories.

And it's just as life has gone on, it's something that's followed me.

So yeah, that's how it became about essentially.

I always loved those old story books you could get as a youngster.

I always loved myths and legends.

And it's something you can do by yourself and it's something that I, I found I, I had a certain ability to and yeah, something I've always enjoyed.

7:27

So how is your kind of understanding then of of Welsh folklore evolved over the years of of immersing yourself in the in the storytelling world?

That's a good question and it's evolved a lot and the reason it's evolved a lot.

7:42

I think when I first started off I would just tell the old classic Welsh stories, the, the, the two Dragons, the red and the white dragon or Gellet the Hound and all these famous Welsh stories that have gone all over the world.

But as I went on and I started to develop and in particularly in the last four or five years, I challenged myself.

8:05

Back at this start of lockdown, I was performing as a storyteller as well as working as a police officer, and I was always telling the same 5 or 6 stories.

So I challenged myself to tell a new story on YouTube every week.

And with that, I started to learn more about Welsh mythology.

8:24

I started to learn more about the more little known stories.

And then I got to meet some great people, you know, people, authors and other storytellers and podcasters.

We're all looking around the same area essentially.

So yeah, my knowledge and understanding of it has grown with the telling, if you like.

8:42

The more I tell, the more I learn about it and the more I learn about it, the more I realize that Welsh storytelling in particular has a really strong character about it, a really different sort of character than you would get the rest of the UK.

8:58

And that's really interesting to me.

So was there a particular story that really inspired you to, to, to just want to pursue this, this aspect of storytelling full time?

I tell you what happened there, and it's quite an old story and quite a long story and quite a good story.

9:18

But I like the way I say it's a good story.

As if, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

These stories are great, aren't they?

I'm selling my own thing here, but I think it's a good story.

Back in 2004, I was involved in a horrible incident in my work as a police officer that left me in bits essentially.

9:35

And prior to going into the police in 2002, I had always had a good sort of performance background and did lots of performing and things like that.

And that had all gone by the wayside.

And my children were young and all those things that happened when you, you know, you're at a certain age.

9:52

And I was really struggling.

And I was really struggling for a while.

And I was working in a place that I didn't like because I associated it with the incident that happened to me.

But then I decided I heard a couple of snippets of tales and I thought it would be a really good idea to create a mythology for the Swansea Valley in particular.

10:16

It's a place so full of story that it is so full of character.

And I had a few snippets of little things that people talked about and I put them together into a story to perform.

And the story is called The Robbers of Pen Wist.

10:33

And it's sort of my signature story, if you like, If you go to on any of my podcasts, any of these things, you will find the Robbers story.

And it's my favorite story.

And it's my favorite story because it's the story that brought me back to storytelling.

It's the story that made me want to be a storyteller, and it's mine if you like.

10:53

And it it's a story that I I wrote based on a few things that I had, and it's a story I still tell today.

And for me, that's made me really proud and really sort of happy I was able to do that and it helped me out of a dark place.

It really did.

So what inspired you then to to create your podcast time between time?

11:15

You know what initially LED you to to go down that route to launch yourself into the podcast community?

It was all about I didn't know anything about podcasting, I knew nothing at all.

So the thought of doing a podcast just seemed far too complicated to me.

11:33

I'm the sort of person who looks at a computer screen and panics, you know, where I don't know what to do.

And especially when you look at audio and all that, the graphs and things that come with it, I thought that it would be beyond me.

But as I said, I just started and decided to sit down in the chair in the corner of this room and tell a new story every week.

11:54

And I'd sort of figured out how to put those on YouTube.

I just thought it would it would be a thing to get me to be able to learn more stories and perhaps get a bit of feedback.

And this was in the pandemic as well.

So I literally did that.

And I started doing the, I'd have to do it all in one take because it was a video right in front of me.

12:14

I had no idea how to edit.

I didn't even have like a stand or a tripod.

I just had my iPad stood in front of me, and I'd be staring at my own face, telling a story and having to do it all in one take.

But I did it, and my audience grew slowly but surely.

12:32

And it got up, went up and up a bit more, but because of the limitations of that and the fact that I was doing it in one take, I could never do more than about 10 minutes.

So I thought, and my ethos with storytelling was I always feel that if you can quieten your mind, you can relax and you can focus for just 10-15 minutes on the story, whether that be a book, whether that be spoken word or a radio show or even the telly.

13:01

It helps you mentally, it banishes all those intrusive thoughts, it calms you down, it stops you worrying.

And I thought as we went on that if I was to transfer my my show to radio.

If you like as a podcast.

13:17

It would enable me to create longer stories and also bring in that whole aspect of bringing the listener to the fire pit of the heart of the forest at the time between times in almost a meditative way in order to bring them in, help them relax, and then tell the story.

13:35

And of course, with the editing, which I learned was quite a bit easier than I thought it was.

I was able to do that.

And yeah, and for a while I run both.

I run the video and I did the the the podcast as well but it takes a lot of time.

13:51

As you know, so in the end I.

Settled on the podcast and yeah, I've gone from there.

Really.

So what would you say for anyone who's listening to this podcast, who hasn't listened to to your amazing podcast yet, what would you say to anyone new as to what they could expect from your podcast?

14:11

Are there recurring themes, recurring types of stories that you know you particularly enjoy sharing?

I think what you'll find with Time Between Times is something I battle with all the time, but it's also a really strong thing with it is that it is always the same time.

14:30

Between Times is all about the listener going to the fire pit and listening to a tale traditionally told.

So I start every episode by doing it slightly differently, but essentially the same thing of guiding the listener to a place of relaxation, inviting the listener to just switch off, to close their eyes and just relax in the story.

14:54

But then I like to take them to a world of lesser known sort of folk tales that you know.

Many of them you can find in books that haven't been printed for almost hundreds of years.

Some of them go back to old folklore books from all over the UK and they will always hear a new tale traditionally told, a new old tale if you like.

15:14

So some of them are like cautionary tales, usually involving the telwith Teague, the fairy folk.

Some of them are ghost stories from old houses or if you're some old roads or places in the far reaches of the country.

15:30

Some of them are new stories or historical stories, but they always last about 1520 minutes.

They're always told in a traditional way, which is essentially me just telling the story.

Very little in the way of sound effects, just me telling a story.

15:47

And it's an invitation to you to leave the modern world behind for.

Just a little while and join me.

At the time between times.

And I think that is the perfect experience for so many people to just have that moment, to be able to switch off and like you say, leave the world behind, leave the rat race, the technology that surrounds us behind us for a little while.

16:09

And it is so reminiscent of the idea of the Bard, people gathered around the Bard listening.

And it's just so immersive.

It is so visceral and you feel it from the tips of your fingers to the tips of your toes.

16:26

You just, it feels like you're stepping into this world.

It's so evocative and immersive and wonderful.

And it's my little, little place of heaven if I need it when I just need to switch off as you, as you so eloquently put it a moment ago, it's wonderful for that.

16:42

It's such a brilliant, brilliant experience.

So thank you because it's amazing.

Oh, that's really kind.

Thank you, Michelle.

And to hear people say that is the biggest thing that I could have ever achieved with it.

You know, I get people coming back and saying, look, every week I look forward to just, you know, dropping off to the time between times or just taking that little bit of time out.

17:05

And that for me is the biggest thing with it, essentially.

It.

Doesn't matter the story you tell, it's how the story makes the person feel.

And that's what it's all about.

And yeah, I really appreciate that.

Thank you.

So can you tell us some of the, you know, some of the more memorable or eerie stories that you've you've shared on the podcast?

17:28

Of course.

Well, I could tell you a tale.

If you want to hear a tale, I could do that.

I mean, I could tell you the story of the robbers of Penwisk if that's what you wanted.

You know, I could try and guide the listener in if you like.

That would be wonderful.

That would be an amazing experience if you could.

Well, I know this is going out sort of Christmas time, Michelle.

17:46

I, I know how important Christmas stories are to people.

And this story, believe it or not, happened 200 years ago this very Christmas.

It happened in a place called the Astragon Lice in the Swansea Valley, a place so dark they say the sun only shines there for an hour a day.

18:06

And then at the height of Midsummer, Astragon Lice, a place where the rock faces rise to the heavens and the church bells ring on misty nights.

And 200 years ago, this very night, in a place called the New Inn.

Now, the New Inn was never new, even when it was first built.

18:25

The water would run down the walls.

The firewood was barely lit.

And on this night of all nights, two men sat by the fire with murder on their mind.

The names were Yago and Granoi, and they were wreckers.

18:43

Now for those of you who don't know, wreckers would stand on the Gower cliffs waving their lanterns and causing ships to wreck upon the rocks.

Then taking their knives, they would go out kill any sailors left.

Steal.

Any treasure they could find and take it back to their houses.

19:01

And Yago and Gurranui had made and lost more fortunes doing this over many years.

Yago was tall and thin.

He wore a long black coat and a tricorn hat.

And he talked in a voice like this.

19:18

His brother was Granui.

He was big and fat, with a great big black beard.

Always carried with him a blunderbuss gun and.

He talked in a voice like this.

Now Yago and Granui sat at the fireplace as the night fell at the time between times, and they had the darkest plan.

19:39

You see, brother, there's a court, right, that makes its way up the valley, all the way from Swansea Port to the town of Bracken.

It's a court, a coach so full of gold that if you open the door, the gold would run out like a river.

19:55

It's there to pay the soldiers up there up in Bracken.

But it passes a place called Penwith.

You know Penwith.

It's that place on the road where the oak tree hangs over like a hocked claw.

I know penwith dear.

Well, let me tell you something.

20:10

A shepherd told me that this court will pass at midnight tonight.

So if you and I go on up there, you can wait in the bushes.

And as soon as I hear the lights on the court, I'll call out with the the call of an owl like this, right?

You step out in front of the court, give it the old stand and deliver, and before you know it, we're gone.

20:30

Now we're the richest men Wales has ever seen.

How do you know this is a case?

A shepherd told me, Brother, trust me.

All were we got.

Yago and Granui climbed onto their cart outside the New Inn.

It was pulled by an old black mare called Shadow.

20:48

She was so thin you could see her ribs, and they made their clip, clopping way through a stricken lice to the village of Abercrrave, until they came to Penwilst, so dark you could not see your hand in front of your face.

Granoi clambered into an old cave and within minutes was sleeping while Yah Ghost scampered up the tree overlooking the road, pulled out his knife and placed it in his mouth and waited, and waited, and waited.

21:21

Far away the church bells rung, The mist came down on the valley like a blanket, and still he waited.

He was about to give up, but then he heard the church bells ringing, bringing in the New Day only a week before Christmas.

21:38

The.

Cold in the air was palpable, but then he saw the light winding its way up the valley.

Hang on, there's more than one light.

He looked again and what he thought was one light became 5 lights, 5 lights became 10 lights, 10 lights became 50 lights.

22:01

And Yago saw that these lights were not carried by a coach.

Oh no, these lights were being carried by the Tullwith Tig.

And at that moment even his black heart almost stopped beating for the Tullwith Tig.

22:17

The fairy folk are not the sort of fairies we read about in stories today.

Oh no.

Some of them are grotesque, ugly goblins that shuffled and walked their way up the valley, while other ones were beautiful flower carved fairies that danced and pranced.

22:33

Now every one of them had in one hand a gold coin and in the other the light.

They passed under Yago's tree, and he watched as every single one of them went to a small cave in a big rock in the side of the mountain, stopped in front of The Cave, and called out Gashu Gashu before disappearing into The Cave and emerging moments later without the gold coin.

23:04

Hang on, those fairies are taking those coins in there and I know the password.

The password is Gaslow.

Gaslow.

I could be the richest man we as has ever known.

I could be the richest.

Yago watched as the fairies left The Cave one after the other before disappearing into the forest, all the lights vanishing in front of his face.

23:28

Summoning enough?

Courage.

He leapt down from the tree.

And went to wake his brother.

I don't have to wake him, do I?

I could just leave him sleeping in that cave.

He's snoring like a pig.

I could be in that cave.

I could be out of that cave.

23:44

I could be gone before anyone knows anything about it.

With all the gold, I just let him sleep.

Yago went up to The Cave, peered in, cupped his hands around his mouth, and called Gashaw.

Gashaw before stepping inside and vanishing.

24:05

He made his way down and to the left.

The Cave was so dark he could barely see in front of his face.

He made his way back and to the right.

He climbed over stalagmite and under Stalag tight.

Or is it the other way around?

Until eventually, when he was on the verge of giving up, when he felt that he had walked and climbed and clambered through many nights until Christmas Eve, he arrived in a cavern, a giant cavern deep underground.

24:36

And all the way around the walls of this cavern there hung sacks.

And from those sacks hung the rivers of gold, which clambered and fell and clanked to the ground as if magic was making the gold come out of the walls.

24:53

The gold was so thick on the floor he had to wave wade through it.

It was up past his knees as he filled his pocket, filled his coat, filled under his hat.

And Iago danced and pranced.

I can't believe this.

I am the richest man ever.

25:09

Look at this.

Look at this gold.

There's enough gold in here for anyone.

He started to clamber and climb and dance and prance deep beneath the earth.

But then something happened.

He did not expect.

What he thought was just a pile of rags in the corner of the room started to shuffle and move.

25:29

What he thought was just a pile of detritus suddenly stood up.

The rags fell away from it.

And the Argo knew, knew, knew at this moment that he was doomed.

For he was staring into the face of a skull of a horse.

25:47

The skull of the horse with glowing green eyes.

He was staring into the face of the Marie Lloyd.

Now for those of you who don't know, the Marie Lloyd is the first horse that Winter killed.

She is the Queen of the fairies and she is the head of the parade after Christmas.

26:05

She.

Is the front of all the festivities, but she is also a capricious beast, and she opened and spoke to Yargo in a voice as old as the mountains and as capricious as the sea.

26:22

Why have you come here a thief?

Her teeth clanked back and forth, echoing through the centuries.

As Yago's courage melted away, he started to pull out the coins and drop them to the ground.

26:38

I'm not a thief.

Oh, Mary Lloyd.

Oh, Mary Lloyd, please let me go.

I beg you have mercy.

Mary Lloyd, it's Christmas.

Mary Lloyd, please, please let me go.

I will not let you go.

26:54

Oh, Mary Lloyd, please.

If you give one blessing this year, please give it to me.

I will leave all the gold behind.

I will not return, I promise.

Yago must have found the Mary Lloyd on a good night as she turned to him and she said go from here thief, but know this, the next person who comes here will be mine, mine forever.

27:24

Do you understand?

Yago didn't need a second offering.

He ran from The Cave and made his way up and to the right back and to the left.

I overstalag might under Stalag tight or is it the other way around?

Until he burst out into the valley above Swansea port and started to run and run and run and he would have run all the way to the sea, but a figure stepped out in front of him.

27:49

The figure with a gun.

Where?

Where'd you think you're going, brother?

Where'd you think, Chuck?

Oh, yago granoi, granoi granoi.

Oh, oh, please.

Let me go.

It's Yago.

It's your brother.

Let me go.

Know who it is?

You left me sleep in that cave, didn't you?

28:06

You left me sleep in that cave while you robbed the court.

You.

I didn't, brother.

I promise.

Look, look, I would never do that to you.

Yago lifted his hands above his head, and at that moment fate, as it often does, intervened, and a single gold coin fell from Yago's pocket to clink and clank on the ground.

28:31

So if you haven't robbed the court, what's that?

Yago's black heart again beat it faster, and he turned to his brother and said.

All right, I did rob the conch.

28:47

You were sleeping.

I didn't want to wake you.

And I put all the gold in a cave over there.

You see that one there?

In the side of that big cavern next to the mountain, there's a password.

Mind.

The password is Castle Castle.

29:05

Make your way down and to the left and back.

To the right, until you come to a cavern deep beneath the earth.

All the gold is there.

Take as much as you want.

I'm gone.

And with that the Argo is gone, never seen in the Swansea Valley ever again.

Granovi made his way to the tunnel and peered inside.

29:25

He cut his hands around his mouth and called Garthour.

Garthour.

He was never seen again.

That Christmas came and went in a Stragan lice and a passerby came across that old cavern and saw his blunderbuss gun outside and took it to hung above the fireplace in a New Inn.

29:48

But it still hangs to this day.

But that's not the end of the story.

No, you see, not long after that, the opera singer Adelina Patti, the singer with the voice of an Angel, came to the Swansea Valley.

She wanted to build a castle that stretched to the sky.

30:06

Kraigenorse.

She wanted to call it the Night Rock.

But as they dug the foundation of that castle, they found that room beneath the earth with all the hooks.

But the gold was gone.

But on one of the hooks was a single human skull.

30:25

The builder took the skull and put it in his bag.

But that night, under his bed, the skull started to scream and scream.

So the builder put it in a sack, jumped on his horse and rode all the way to Swansea Town until he came to the museum with his great Greek facade.

30:42

And he hammered on the door and the curator took the skull and put it in the deepest room in the darkest vault.

But still every night it screamed and screamed till they took it out to sea and dropped it in the ocean.

And only then was it silent.

31:01

But they say now, even now, all these years later, the nights grow dark and the Christmas lights grow bright.

If you go to Penwith in the Swansea Valley and you listen to the ground deep underneath it, you will hear the cries of a man, Garcio.

31:20

Garcio.

And that, my friends, is the story of the robbers of Penwilt Dioch Bauer.

Thank you very much.

I have no words.

It's so good.

31:37

I could listen to that 10 times over and I would still find pleasure in in hearing it over and over and over and over again.

I mean, like I said at the beginning, you are just so, so skillful at what you do, but it is so joyful to be able to hear those, the stories and to just be immersed in the atmosphere and the storytelling of it.

32:00

I mean, like I said earlier, it just takes you in every single.

Sense of the word.

To that story, you feel it almost like a heartbeat.

You just are there experiencing it with you.

I was on.

I was literally hanging on your every word.

32:15

It was amazing.

You're really kind, Michelle.

Thank you.

I'm glad I came here, mate.

It's nice.

Thank you ever so much.

So how is it then with so much, you know, wonderful stories and as you said, Welsh stories have such character.

32:33

How is it that you go about deciding then which stories to try and tell him to feature?

I'm a bit of a story magpie to be honest.

So I've got load of, as I'm speaking to you now, I'm looking around the little study room I've got and it's full of as many old books as I can possibly find.

32:51

And in those, you know, the the Reader's Digest Book of the Myths and Legends of Britain.

There's loads of Myths and Legends of Wales books here.

There's loads of these sort of tomes.

I always look through them and I'm always on the lookout for fresh stories, fresh places, you know, good places to go.

33:08

I surround myself with good people as well, and I've been really lucky to get to know some really good people in the folklore community, in the paranormal community, and they're always point to be in the direction of good stories.

I'm always interested in a good tale.

33:23

A lot of ghost stories in particular are, I was walking up here and I saw this ghost.

So there isn't much to them.

So I would much rather come with a smaller tale, but that has got something special about it.

And that's what I really like.

I love finding a story that has a twist, the story that has a a cautionary element to it.

33:42

A story that inhabits an area is a particular favorite of mine.

I've recorded this week's episode just last night, and it's about Janet Foss.

Janet's Foss in, in Yorkshire, which is a waterfall which is synonymous with the fairies.

33:58

And a friend of mine put me in in touch with that if you like.

And I, I read into it and there's some lovely little tales about it.

So usually if I've got a, you know, a location or a theme, I can usually weave some sort of story around it.

34:14

And that's important to me, that the story is interesting more than anything.

The story is the.

Thing you know.

What they say when legend becomes fact?

Print the legend you know.

So if you ever had any ghostly or supernatural experiences yourself, that stands out for you.

34:32

Yeah, I have.

I've had a few.

And if you ask me, if you put a gun to my head and said, do you believe in ghosts, I think I'd say no.

But I've had a few experiences over the years which have really made me question that.

34:48

And there's always been a case that I've, you know, thought, oh, it must have been this and I must have been that.

But at the end of the day, they are what they are.

And or the one in particular that always stands out for me was when working as a police officer in the Swansea Valley, just about not far from where that story took place.

35:05

And it was about 4:00 AM and myself and a colleague were driving up through the Swansea Valley was as dark as dark can be.

I was driving, my colleague, believe it or not, was asleep.

And it was about 20 to 4:00 in the morning.

And we came to a little hamlet, if you like, that's called Chiswen.

35:24

And as you come over the brow into the village, all that's there is a shop, a few houses and a bus stop on the right hand side.

And the bus stop at this time, it was 2005, was an old stone bus stop.

And I came up over the brow near in the hill.

35:42

And there in the bus stop was an old lady, and she was strangely dressed and she was hunched over and she was stood in the bus stop.

But I can clearly see her face today.

And as every good police officer does, I just drove towards her, looking at her as she started waving her arm up and down, lifting it up and down as if trying to flag me down or wave at me.

36:08

And I just kept on going.

I drove around the corner.

And then I thought.

Hang on a minute.

That's weird.

So I pulled over and I woke my friend and I said, look, I've just seen this.

And he said, well, yeah, don't you think we should go back because there might be an old lady in the bus stop who was trying to flag us down.

36:26

So we drove around and there was nothing there, nothing at all.

We looked everywhere.

We got our torches out.

She couldn't have gone anywhere.

She was nobody from the village is only.

You know.

Not many people from in the village living there, full stop.

And she could never have got away, you know, in the time it took before we got back.

36:46

And to add to the weirdness, as we were looking, another car came up the road.

And this car was full of teenagers.

And my friend turned to me and he said if we're going to stop a car, it's got to be that.

One isn't it at this time of night?

So we pulled the car over.

And I said to the driver, I said, what are you doing here at this time?

37:04

And he turned to me and he said, I've heard this road is full of ghosts.

And that sent a shiver up my spine.

It really did.

So all the.

Experiences, and I've had a few.

That one really stands out because even as I'm speaking to you right now, I can see that old woman's face and I could see what she was wearing.

37:22

And yeah, you know, over the years, I've thought, was I really tired?

Was I falling asleep?

And it jolted me awake.

There's a myriad of things that I thought it could be.

But at the end of the day I saw a figure in a bus stop.

At 20 to 4:00 in the morning on a dark country Rd. in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night that I can't explain.

37:43

And that's it.

And, you know, I think something like that though, when it really stays with you and you can't shake it off, I think sometimes irregardless of of what you believe, whether you believe in ghosts and the supernatural or not, it's still something that resonates.

38:00

It's still something that stays with you as something unexplainable.

That in itself is OK.

There doesn't have to be an, you know, an answer or an explanation for it.

It's just an experience that you remember and you recall for its strangeness and its weirdness.

38:17

And you know, in some ways, possibly that, you know, an event like that is something that you have also brought into your storytelling.

You know, that feeling that you had that you try and recreate that for, for others listening to your tales.

And, and I think moments like that, whatever they are, whatever moments we have in our lives, good or bad, scary or otherwise, whatever they are, they shape us, don't they?

38:41

And it's those memorable moments that that take us forward and shape our beliefs.

And, and I think that's something that for many people who've had strange, weird encounters, that's precisely what it does.

It it starts to to shape who we are and what we think going forward.

39:01

Absolutely.

And at the end of the day, Michelle, the world is a better place with ghosts in it.

We have to have that mystery.

We have to have that story.

We have to have that belief that there's something out there, whether it be the spirits of the dead, whether they be a Stone Tape theory, whatever they are, whether.

39:20

They just be figments of our imagination.

The fact that they are there gives the place a bit of wonder.

And that to me is everything.

Because to sit to you and know that outside in these dark places there could be something makes everything far more interesting, I feel.

39:43

As the days grow shorter and the winter nights draw near, the chill in the air invites us to gather closer to the fire, where the flickering flames dance like specters in the dark.

It's during these colder months that our spectral journey deepens, revealing even more chilling tales and unsolved enigmas.

40:05

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With the night's lengthening and the shadows growing, we need your support more than ever.

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40:22

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40:43

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41:00

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41:30

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41:47

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42:32

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42:59

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43:16

Dare to embrace the unknown, to journey deeper into the veiled corridors of history.

For only together can we keep the ghostly embers glowing, illuminating the darkness with tales untold.

Now, as the fire crackles and the wind howls outside, let us return to the mysteries that beckon from beyond the veil.

43:41

What spectres await?

What secrets lie dormant, waiting to be unearthed?

Let us venture forth for the journey into the unknown.

Has only just begun.

And something that I've spoken before is this connective element to history.

44:04

And I think again, this is where storytelling enables us to connect to that magic, that wonder, that mystery of the world that has captured us as human beings for centuries.

You know, these are the types of stories that we have been telling each other for centuries.

44:21

For a reason.

Because precisely what you just said, they they help to lift the veil into these other worlds, to magic beyond our everyday lives.

That again, just for something that is endures us because of the fascination behind it, those big questions that draws us in.

44:41

And, you know, I think they they will be continued to be told as stories for centuries for the same reason.

And there's something wonderfully magical in that, that thread that connects all of these lives from the past, the present, and the future.

Who will hear these stories and be enthralled?

44:59

Enthralled in them for the same reasons that we all engage with them.

I totally, totally agree with you and it goes back to what I said earlier.

You know, as a youngster in seat against church in North Wales, in a place I really didn't want to be, has suddenly become a place I will always remember just because I was told a ghost story.

45:21

So what was a mundane place suddenly became a magical place and it became a place where sometimes things could happen.

Think, whether I believe it or not, people have seen and people have felt that people know that things go on there and all of a sudden that is a magical place and that makes the world far more interesting.

45:39

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, just kind of bringing back to something that you mentioned earlier that we've touched upon since, you know, the fact that Welsh ghost.

Stories.

You know that.

Welsh stories themselves have such character.

Do you want to just elaborate on that a little bit further in terms of what you think makes Welsh ghost stories so unique compared to to other cultures in other parts of the United Kingdom, for example?

46:05

Absolutely.

I've been very, very lucky, Michelle, over the last year to spend a lot of time with a lady who's a good.

Friend of mine called Doctor Delith Bader.

Who about a year ago released a book called The Folklore of Wales Ghosts and I would recommend that to anyone with an interest in Welsh folklore, Welsh ghosts in particular.

46:25

And by reading that book, Delith has really cleverly gone into the archives of sort of Welsh history and Welsh ghosts and as really for the first time showcased what the Welsh ghost is.

The ghosts in Wales are very different.

I mean, England is fantastic.

46:42

It's full of brilliant ghost stories.

Many of them are, you know, famous people, the Anne Boleyns, they Mary Queen of Scots, the Great Bear ghost in the Tower of London, these, you know, ghosts of Dick Turpin, ghosts of these famous people.

And of course they are still full of haunted houses with ghosts in and things like that, all of them with great stories.

47:04

The Welsh ghost is a different beast.

The Welsh ghost tends to be very low key.

The Welsh ghost will only show itself to one person and one person alone.

The Welsh ghost will not speak until spoken to and only then if addressed in the name of the Trinity.

47:22

So if I was to say in the name of God who are you or something like that, the Welsh ghost would speak to me.

And also, the Welsh ghost is very, very fond of tasking people, tasking people to find lost treasure, tasking people to pass on messages, tasking people as if they've got some sort of unfinished business that they can't go and rest until they've told people about.

47:46

The Welsh ghost is very working class.

He sits on a style in the middle of nowhere, waiting for passers by.

Hoy La Pierre in the ruins of an old house.

They don't tend to be these big flashy sort of coaches pulled by headless horses and things like that.

48:03

They are just shadows on the roadside.

They are beings that of who have been in the past, who are probably nameless and will for over be nameless.

But they are there.

And the Welsh ghost is exactly that.

It's a figure that will appear to you on a dark Rd. on a stormy night in the middle of nowhere.

48:22

Windswept and windsome.

They're trapped just waiting to tell you something and that, for me, makes the Welsh ghost absolutely terrifying.

I think they're particularly terrifying because of, in some ways, the ordinary ordinariness of it, the quietness of it, the stillness of it.

48:44

Like you said, it's not the flashy coach, it's not the flashy huge entourage.

There's almost something very eerie in the silence and the stillness and the isolation of it compared to that kind of flashiness that you kind of typically see with other types of ghost stories.

49:02

And I just love how how kind of evocative they are of the, the landscape and the the kind of the unique pockets of culture and community that you have.

With these very.

Much, very much kind of isolated stories that are unique to those areas, that speak to those people of that area and that can be different from one part of Wales to another part of Wales.

49:27

I mean, it's incredible, really, really, again, just like you said, just a full of character and I think community and heart, which is so intriguing listening to them that they're fascinating.

They do and they, and they tend to be the sort of stories where a lone traveller on their way from 1 village to another will encounter a spirit and the spirit will usually tell them something, some sort of task.

49:53

And in many of the stories, you know, the person will ignore the spirit and then the other spirit gets angry and the spirit starts to take its vengeance upon them.

And usually the person will turn up and not be believed because they're the only person who's seen the ghost.

They're the only person who's spoken to the ghost.

But at the end of the day, these stories echo through the centuries and every village, every hamlet has one of these tales.

50:16

We've got Tales of the Laddie.

When the white lady, you know, we'll sit that side of the road.

We've got tales of the Grass Ribbon was a Welsh banshee who sings and shouts and screams in the night when people are about to die.

You know, we have all these characterful things that are very, very unique and when you look, and that's one of the great things about the small island that we all live on.

50:38

You know, the Irish ghost, the Scottish ghosts, the English ghosts have all got amazing characters of their own.

If you speak to someone from Scotland, they'll tell you stories about phantom armies and things like that.

I've never seen that in Wales all these way.

The ghosts are totally different.

As you say, the ghosts in England, they can be quite ostentatious at times.

50:56

A lot of the ones that we hear about, I've always got great stories behind them.

I've told many of them on the time between times.

But the Welsh.

Ghost is very different, very, very different, and that's what makes it quite special, I feel.

So could you maybe share an example of a, of a Welsh ghost story that you would say is, you know, maybe fairly typical that exemplifies the Welsh, the Welsh ghost story and what makes it so much that Brit makes it so interesting and and like you said, full of character.

51:27

I'll tell you another story.

I'll tell you a story that isn't like the ones I've just described, really.

I'll tell you a really strong, good Welsh ghost story, which is again, is in Dallas book.

But it's a story that really latched itself onto me.

And it's a story I've told for a while now, because I know the place.

51:47

And if any of you go down to Gower, going to Gower is one of the most beautiful places in all the world.

The sun in Gower sets.

That's the last.

Place in the world that it sets, and the sea is shimmering and bright.

And there in Rossili Bay, with its golden sand and its wrecked ships upon the shore, is a small cottage overlooking the Bay on the Cliff top.

52:12

If we go.

There now we will just see its whitewashed walls.

It has no roof and the door is hanging off the hinges.

But many years ago it was a home to a new couple seeking solace from city life and moving to the one of the most beautiful places in all the world.

52:31

Her name was Lowry and he was Hugh.

He was a fisherman.

They came to Rossili to make a life, and every day Hugh went out in his boat looking for fish, and every day Lowry would make sure the house was getting itself ready, for it was a ruin when they made their way there.

52:50

She painted the walls, she made the furniture, she lit the hearth until the house was the greatest house any of them could imagine.

It was a dream house.

There were only three rooms, and it overlooked the Bay.

There was the hearth and the kitchen.

53:09

There was the room with the bed, and there was the backroom.

Lowry had dreams that her parents would come and visit.

So she made a second bed, ostentatious, so she thought, and put it in that backroom.

She put a vase upon the window and a single flower in it, and a rug upon the floor.

53:29

And no matter how high the wind or Hatter matter, how strong the storm, this house was a happy home.

But on the last day, she finished the last room with a last lick of whitewash, and she sat on the bed and offered a prayer of thanks for all that they had been given.

53:54

It was at that moment that the room went cold.

It was at that moment that she felt a breath on the back of her neck.

It was at that moment that something spoke to her.

Hear your teeth, Ah, hear your notes, ah, hear tween arrows and around.

54:22

Lowry stood up.

She felt her heart would burst from her.

Chest as she.

Span around her hair was standing on edge, but there was nothing in the room.

Here I'd a here, I Nos a here doing aros AMA aroun.

54:38

Long is the day and long is the night and long I wait for aroun.

Lauri left the room and closed the door behind her.

And then the noises started.

The bed was being pulled along the floor, the rug torn from the ground, the vase.

Smashed upon the ground, she.

54:55

Fell with her back to the door and just waited and waited and waited until the sun rose the next day and she opened the room to find it totally smashed.

She built it all again, but would not stay and wait there.

55:14

But every night when the church bells rang far away, she could hear the voice in the room.

Hear your teeth a hear your Nos, a Hear twin arrows.

I'm aroun.

Long is the day and long is the night, and long I wait for aroun.

55:32

Days turned to weeks, weeks turned to months, months turned to a year.

She placed a lock on the door and would not enter until one night when Hugh was due back from fishing.

She looked out the window and saw another boat in the Bay, and this time a figure making his way to the cottage.

55:51

He knocked upon the door and she opened it and there he was with a hat on his head and a sack over his back.

Could I, Could I come in and have some hospitality please?

There is due to be a storm tonight and I cannot go any further.

56:10

If I leave you a coin, could I have have something to eat and something to drink?

You are more than welcome, she said, taking the stranger into the kitchen.

They sat by the fire.

She made him a bowl of cowl, she gave him a mug of ale and he ate and drunk until the night grew long.

56:30

Do you have somewhere I can stay?

We have a room, but nobody stay.

I don't mind.

I'll stay anywhere.

She took the stranger to the back room and using the key, she undid the lock and the stranger walked inside, sat on the bed.

56:48

I'm, I'm so rude.

You, you must forgive me.

I've not introduced myself.

My name is Arun.

Lowry felt her blood run cold and she closed the door and sat with her back to it, waiting for the voice to start, waiting for the furniture to move.

57:14

But nothing happened.

The night grew long, it grew darker, until in the end dawn broke and summoning all her courage, she used the key to undo the lock and stepped inside of our own.

57:31

There was no sign the room was as Immaculate as she had left it, but the flower had been taken from the vase and placed on the bed.

Laurie and Hugh lived there for the rest of their lives, and they loved the place.

57:49

Their children grew up there, and their children's children grew up there.

But it's said that even tonight, if you go to Rossili at the time, between times, the time, it's neither night nor day, but the sun is gone and the sky is grey, and you come to the ruin of that old cottage on the hill.

58:08

You will see the Tullwith Tig dancing under the moonlight.

You will see the spectral Laddie Wen walking past the doorway and you will hear the voice cry here Ordeith A, here Ernos A, here Twin Arrows and Aaron.

58:29

And that is my story.

I hope you enjoyed.

No pressure Owen, but I've come to the decision whilst listening to you sharing that ghost story that you know, maybe the podcast could rather than being a weekly podcast, what about a daily podcast?

58:49

Do you think you'd be up for that?

No, no pressure.

It's enough pressure.

It's enough pressure as it is.

I love telling stories.

They're great, but yeah.

Thank you.

I've got goosebumps.

Literally head to toe.

I've got goosebumps.

59:06

And I I think you could tell anything and it'd be amazing.

I think you could turn anything into an amazing tale.

You're that good.

But it helps when you have such amazing stories at the, you know, at your disposal that you can also draw on and bring in.

59:25

I mean, they are incredible tales.

They are fantastic.

They are I, I think, and that's, we've got a thing in Wales, OK.

And, and I think it's a thing with Welsh culture in that we don't like to put our head above the parapet.

It's, it's a bit of a thing.

It's, it's always seems to happen when people do well in Wales.

59:42

Oh, look at him, he's done well.

He's become famous.

We don't like him anymore.

It's that sort of thing.

And I think it's the same with our culture and our ghost stories and our myths and legends in particular.

They're as strong as anywhere in the world, but we don't publicize them enough.

59:59

If that story happened in Ireland or it happened in Scotland, there would be films and book series all about it.

But because it's in Wales, we put it in a book, we hide it away and we tell it whispered voices around the fireplace in the dark at night.

We're next to no one hears it.

1:00:16

And that.

Is a difficult thing, isn't it, to overcome.

But these stories are there and if anyone wants to study Welsh ghost stories or Welsh myths and legends, there are so many good places you can look and you will find fascinating tales, really fascinating tales.

1:00:34

So do you have a particular favorite ghost story or legend that really captivates you that you would say it is just it for you, It has everything that you would hope for and want to draw on for a story from Wales?

1:00:51

That's a really difficult question and I've got loads and loads of stories that I absolutely love.

I love the Anglo Star, which I told earlier on, which I told you about in Saint Agnes Church.

I love the story of Saint Cotlan and Gwyneth.

1:01:07

I love the robs of Penn with the story I told you earlier has a certain place in my heart because of what it means to me.

That story, Hiru Deed Hiru Norse, is a story that has really come alive to me over the last year.

1:01:22

In particular, just reading Death and and Mark Norman's book with is so full of character.

Lot of the stories are just little tales that are little sightings of things which I just find absolutely fascinating.

1:01:39

You know, there's a lot of these tales, as I told you earlier, that are set in certain locations where a ghost will just show itself to someone.

And that person will, you know, in shock, ask the ghost something and the ghost will, will tell them that there's a treasure hidden under a, a stone in a river and, and will they go and find it?

1:02:00

And coming from that, what was really fascinating to me was I used to do a lot of policing in the Swansea Valley, as I said earlier.

And as part of my role I used to do a lot of what they call police surgeries where I'd go and I'd meet with like old age people groups or community groups to offer reassurance more than anything.

1:02:21

Then me being me, I'd always get talking about different stories and there was one story that is very much in that mould.

But it was really, really different in that in this story, a ghost appears to a man in the Swansea Valley and says, like, I want you to find this gold for me.

1:02:40

But the gold is in Pennsylvania, and this is hundreds of years ago.

And the guy goes, well, how am I going to get?

And the ghost literally picks him up and transports him across the Atlantic to find this gold and throw it in a lake.

Wasteful, I know.

1:02:57

And then brings him back.

And the guy appears to his friends and said, you won't believe what's happening.

I've just been flown halfway across the world and all because of this ghost has tasked me.

And I was told that story by an old lady in a in a church hall in a village called Colburn about 20 years ago, as if it had been, you know, not 20, about 15 years ago, as if it had happened only the day before.

1:03:18

And yet that story is in a book by a reverend called Edmund Jones, who travelled Wales in an 18th century picking up local ghost stories.

And that story was still being told as if it was a relevant happening recent story by the people of Colburn 200 years ago, about 200 years after it was written down.

1:03:41

So that story to me is a story that shows that this sort of stuff is.

Very, very much alive.

And that's what made me really fascinated in that type of thing.

And if anyone wants to read about Edmund Jones, there's some truly, truly fascinating stories that he chronicled during his time in.

1:03:57

Wales.

For me, it seems almost like a potent living force, like as you mentioned, the, you know, these stories are still as relevant.

They are told as if, like you said, they've just happened recently and are part of, you know, the local consciousness in the same way that they would have been 202 hundred years prior.

1:04:22

There's, there is almost something like this living, breathing life force behind them that keeps generating them and generating them and generating them for all the, you know, the generations that come.

That again, is rather intriguing that they still have that power that they did when they were first originally spoken of.

1:04:43

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And I always feel that with the Welsh ghost in particular, they're all just out there sitting on a on a fence post or in the middle of the woods or on a crossroads on a windswept Moor, just there all the time just waiting to speak to you, waiting to task you and wishing to almost as if like they this silent thing, just hoping that someone's going to talk to them.

1:05:06

And that, to me, makes them fascinating as well.

So are there any, you know, Welsh ghost stories or legends that are specifically tied to to the Christmas season?

There's probably quite a few and in all honesty, a lot of the stories are tales which are not, you know, season specific.

1:05:25

Essentially they could have happened at any time.

I always feel that the the story of Saint Kosher and Gwynedd, there's a bit of a Christmas story and not essentially a ghost story, more of a fairy story, but that is a good one that people could look at and always gets me in the mood for sort of Christmas.

1:05:42

I don't know why it's linked to Glastonbury as well.

There's a version of it told there which is very similar.

Anything with a Marie Lloyd.

Now I spoke about the Marie Lloyd in the robbers story.

The Marie Lloyd is an amazing.

If anyone doesn't know what it is, Google it.

1:05:58

It's essentially a horse's skull on a pole that's covered in ribbons.

And there's an old Welsh tradition that happens just after Christmas, really at the start of the new year.

But you often see it, you know, on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, just afterwards, where groups of people dressed up with ribbons around them, dressed up as different characters would go from house to house.

1:06:21

And they will engage in a battle of wits.

They'll engage in a in a poem competition or a Riddle competition.

And if the the Mary Lloyd and her company win, they will, they will come in and be allowed to have some, some drink or some food.

But if the people win, then the Mary Lloyd will leave.

1:06:38

It's almost like an old form of trick or treating and Marie Lloyd is such an evocative Christmas.

Imagine Wales and the horses skull roaming the roads.

I'm just a click clack of a mouth, opening and closing just means it just brings everything to me and the thought of that and I can remember again, I talk about the Swansea Valley a lot, but I spend, I spent many happy years working there and I live not far from there now.

1:07:06

And at this time of year, as we move into Christmas, that is such a good place for having that, where Mari Lloyd parades still take place, where people still go from pub to pub and sing old Christmas songs as they would.

Deep.

1:07:21

In the night, you know, at Christmas time, because the Welsh Christmas was a very traditional Christmas as well, Chapel based, a lot of it with very early morning services where people go in there at the crack of dawn, you know, just to see the dawn coming up on Christmas Day.

So the Welsh ghost was very much alive at that time as well.

1:07:40

There's a a great story again in Death and Mark's book about ghosts about a laddie when which is a white lady that there are four friends who've lost.

One of their friends has gone missing over Christmas as they move from village to village singing carols and they come across a laddie when at the side of the road.

1:08:01

And the laddie when just shows itself to these girls.

And one of them speaks to it and says like what do you want?

And the laddie when just turns to them and says Susan Scott is alive and tells them that that the the girl is still alive who they're looking for.

1:08:18

And as she does that that, the sky fills with owls.

And I find that an amazing, amazing story when you think about it.

So, yeah, lots of these little tales which Christmas is very much a time for ghost stories in Wales, not in the same way as it is in England.

1:08:34

And and you know, with Mr. James and Charles Dickens, a signal man and those type of Victorian or Edwardian ghost stories, but more with a sort of older ghost story that comes from perhaps the Industrial revolution or just.

Before.

So yeah, there's Lords out there.

And something that you just kind of spoke of there with the the sky filling with owls made me, you know, think back to speaking to Dellis before on the podcast here that, you know, something that again, I think is rather unique is the use of animals, sometimes strange ones at that, like pigs that come through in ghost stories from Wales, which again, is rather fascinating to me.

1:09:14

It's not something that you typically see in in other type types of ghost stories and other cultures.

Yeah, definitely enchanted animals, the old pig, the torque troith, even if you go back to the Mabinogyon, things like that.

And yeah, and again, I could have, again, this happened at Christmas, but I'm talking about animals, not particularly a ghost, but another supernatural.

1:09:37

So when I say supernatural, another strange experience that happened to me back when I was policing again was I can remember I had a call, I used to work in Brecon and near Hay on why.

And I had a call to go to a pub just outside Hay on Why, where a woman would meet me.

1:09:54

And she didn't want to say why.

So I drove up there in the dead of night and this was been 2003 pulled up outside this pub outside Hay on why.

And the woman was in the door and she said she asked me to come around the side of the pub and she said that's my car over there.

1:10:10

You could see a car parked up a lane.

And she said, will you take me to the car?

I was like, yeah, OK.

So I took it up the lane to the car.

And she said to me 1/2 hour ago, I walked up here to open the car door and just as I was opening it, I turned around and there in the Bush was a Panther.

1:10:32

And I can remember the blood running cold in me.

And she looked at the ground and.

I shined my torch on the ground and there were footprints all over the concrete leading from the Bush down into the garden of a house behind the pub.

And we had the dog up there, a police dog to have a look, and he wouldn't go near the area.

1:10:52

And it was absolutely terrifying.

And that happened on the 23rd of December.

I remember that.

And that's something that really sort of struck home with me about beasts in the in the countryside, in the forest, in the hills and things like that.

So you mentioned obviously some of the the traditions the the Welsh holiday traditions a moment ago.

1:11:14

Are there other holiday traditions, other Welsh holiday traditions that you would say kind of have that supernatural folklore slant tea them?

There's loads of old sort of traditions which have died away.

You know, there are traditions of, you know, like usually Chapel based traditions where people who go out in the middle of the night and to see the dawn breaking.

1:11:36

There's one called plugging, which is an old, old Chapel service that happens at Christmas.

There's another tradition where the first boy you would see on Christmas Day would be like whipped with holly bushes and things like that.

And I, I really hope that doesn't go on anymore.

1:11:52

But the tradition of ghost stories, the tradition of Wales is a dark place at Christmas.

Everywhere is dark, but Wales seems to be particularly dark.

I just think that sometimes in other parts of the UK, light to celebrate.

1:12:08

There's a lot of light around, you know, a lot of Christmas lights, a lot of bright stuff.

But in Wales we like the dark and we like what might be in the dark and that's why we like to tell these stories almost as we flipped from door to door trying to hide our way at Christmas time.

1:12:24

I think the old Welsh Christmas was a very homely Christmas, a Christmas of being at your own hearth in your own home, telling stories.

And those stories would begin be quite private, quite low key and at Christmas time because a lot of people with Chapel goers.

1:12:41

So ghost stories weren't in particularly, you know, applauded.

But the telling of ghost stories around a private hearth in the middle of the night amongst family and close friends must be a real, it must have been really appealing in those times.

1:12:57

And just being able to move through the darkness to these little fires, having a little drink, sharing a few gifts, saying some prayers probably.

But telling these stories, I think that's a really good thing.

But still I still like to think happens.

So could you maybe share an example then of a of a Christmas themed ghost story for us listening?

1:13:20

Well, I think I've mentioned it a couple of times, but I think the story, I'd live in the town of Neath, which is called Castech Neath, Neath's Fort.

And if I look out my back window here, I can see the black of the night, for I live in the pit of the valley.

1:13:37

But on nights, some nights, if you're blessed, especially at this time of year, it is said that a wild hunt flies from the top of the valley to the bottom.

A great chariot pulled through the sky, flown by the king of the fairies, Gwyn Apnea.

1:13:58

His hunting hounds pull the chariot, and to look upon them sometimes means certain death.

Their howls echo through the night.

And it was like that, a Christmas many, many years ago, where a man called Koshen was making his way through the Wilds of Wales, offering blessings and prayers to those people in the dark of the night.

1:14:26

At this place at this time of year, on the side of a mountain in the valley of Gwyn up Neath, he made a hovel to sleep in.

And as the church bells rung far away and he could hear the revellers at Christmas time, he would sleep under the moonlight, covered in furs, with nothing but his prayers and hope for company.

1:14:52

And on this night, this Christmas Eve, two men were walking past.

They did not know that the monk was there.

Caution.

And he heard them speaking.

I have seen him.

I have seen him in his chariot at night.

1:15:10

He is Lord of these lands, sure enough, for he is Gwynn Apneath.

Koshen sat up, and the two men were afraid.

They turned to him.

We didn't see you there.

Why do you speak the name of that being on this the holiest of Knights?

1:15:29

Why do you speak his name in this place on this day?

We meant no offence, but he is Lord in these lands.

These are his valley.

We shall see about that.

1:15:47

The next night Koshim was asleep once more.

Far away the revellers went, and the church bells rung, for today was Christmas Day, when a figure approached where he slept, hooded and cowed, his face covered in darkness.

1:16:06

You are the one, the one called Koshen.

On this night, as the lights shine bright and the snow falls heavily, you are summoned to the hall of my master Gwyn Abneeth, for the best, greatest, the greatest celebration in all the lands.

1:16:29

Koshen stood up.

Although I will not speak his name, I will of course attend.

When the messenger turned around and had his back to Coughen, he picked up a vial of holy water blessed by himself, and placed it in his pocket.

1:16:47

The stranger led him over.

Mountain Stranger let him through a wood.

Every night time he looked up, the night sky was filled with stars until he came to a hill.

And on that hill was a castle, bedecked bedecked with flowers and rotten, rotten vegetation, the castle of Gwynn Upneath.

1:17:12

They stepped inside and there were the most beautiful people in the most beautiful hall, eating the most beautiful food and drinking the most beautiful drink.

And at the head of the table was the Lord of the Underworld himself.

Welcome, caution, welcome.

1:17:30

You would not have my name spoken, but here I am at Christmas night and I welcome you.

Now sit with me and partake of my fare, for here there is always time for celebration.

1:17:48

Kochen stepped forward, opened his robe, pulled out the bottle, and as the Lord of the Underworld offered him his chair, he threw the holy water in his face.

The room started to spin, the people started to scream, the roof came off the top, and Kochen fell to the ground.

1:18:13

He awoke hours later, the frost covering his body, on a hilltop in the middle of Wales.

Gwynne up Neath had been Bannet by the man who would become St.

1:18:28

Cotlen on Christmas Day all these years ago.

When offered the Feast of the Underworld, he chose to leave it behind, giving the gift of holy water in return.

1:18:46

And that, my friends, is the story of Saint Cotlen and Gwynne up Neath.

Oh, Owen, thank you so much for for sharing that incredible story.

Like I said, every single, every single story you've been able to share for the podcast has just been such a treat to list, to listen to, you know, thank you so much.

1:19:07

It's just been incredible, incredible to hear you share those.

Stories with the.

Passion and the the mystery and the heart that you do, they are incredible.

Oh, thank you ever so much.

It's been a pleasure to come here.

Michelle.

I'm a great fan of, of your podcast as well.

1:19:25

So to be on here speaking to you at this special time of year is a, is a is a blessing for me as well.

So I I really thank you for having the grace to invite me here.

And just to finish before I kind of remind people about to listen to your podcast over and over again, I will say that before the end of the podcast, go listen to Owen's podcast.

1:19:47

Before we get to that point, though, just to finish, you know, for you, what's the most rewarding part of of keeping these ancient stories alive and sharing them with people like me and others who listen around the world?

The most rewarding thing for me is knowing that these stories, some of the many hundreds of years old that have lived nowhere except on in the mouths of storytellers, sometimes lost, sometimes unnamed, sometimes not even ever written down, just told from door to door.

1:20:19

Tale to tale.

From in to Tavern wherever are now being heard by people all over the world.

I was amazed the other morning when I got up and I had I had an e-mail from Brazil talking about the story of the the two Dragons and the the Dragons of Dinas Emres.

1:20:39

It's about the origin of the Welsh flag.

But them being fascinated by that and not knowing about it.

I think the time has come, you know, especially in Wales, for us to to talk more about these stories, to talk more about this culture and to talk more about the myths, the legends and the magic that we can show the world.

1:20:58

And if I can do that a little bit, you know, if I can just get people to listen to my podcasts where they might hear a story they've not cured before.

Or if you go in through a particularly bad time and you need somewhere to just relax and just lose yourself for a few moments listening to a story, that makes me feel great.

1:21:15

And I just love it when people get in touch because as you probably know, podcasting can be quite lonely.

You're forever just talking into a mic on your own in a studio and you put your podcast out and you know, sometimes you don't get much back.

You know, people are listening, you see the figures, but you don't hear the effect it has on people.

1:21:32

So just to feel and know that people enjoy the tales makes me very happy indeed.

And this is really my call to arms.

Anybody listening to this podcast, whenever you listen to it, if you haven't heard Owen's podcast, make sure to to follow the links that I will make sure are really easily available both on the website in the podcast description note for this episode, follow the links to find Owen's podcast.

1:22:00

Follow the links to find Owen's website because you will not be disappointed by by journeying over there and and listening to more of these stories.

You will, you will find something that I think will be rather magical that will just open up these worlds and these these stories to you that you may never have heard or you may have heard this story or the Nuggets of this story before, but suddenly it just bursts into colour.

1:22:28

And yeah, I think you will, you will you, like me, will be just enthralled and find yourself eagerly anticipating each new episode.

And we can all work really hard at twisting Owens arm to make it a daily podcast we can all get.

1:22:48

You know, that can be the next the net, the next kind of call of to action.

Everybody start asking for more.

Ah, that's really kind.

I would love people to join me at the fire pit of the heart of the forest at the time between times, the time it's neither night nor day, but the sun is gone and the sky is grey.

1:23:07

And at this time, this Christmas time where the sky is dark.

The fire burns bright and the tales are told in a happy way, so charge a glass and join us at the fire pit where you will hear a tale you may not have heard before, but you will be most welcome.

1:23:27

Incredible, honestly, thank you so much for your time.

Owen and I will say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

1:23:43

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Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.