Deliverance Ministry- Investigating Poltergeists, Hauntings and Possession with An Anglican Priest

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Speaker B: Joining me today is Jason Bray, who was born in South Wales and has been a priest for 25 years. He is currently the vicar of North Wales's largest church, St. Giles's and Rexam, doing all the things you expect busy vicars to do. He's your quintessential vicar, that person in the long dress and poncho who stands at the front of the church and tells you God loves you. He's the person who will baptize your children, take your wedding and conduct your Auntie Beryl's funeral. But as well as this, he's also been a Deliverance Minister, a combination of ghostbuster and exorcist for 20 years. He's the person you will call in when Auntie Beryl still keeps appearing on the landing in her 90, or when things go bump and rattle in your shoes start moving on their own, or when you think your mother in law might be possessed. After being featured in The Sunday Times, he wrote the book Deliverance based on his experiences. This is a book about oppression and possession of ghosts, poltergeists and other paranormal phenomena and how to deal with them. He is the first Anglican Deliverance Minister to write a book about the Ministry for the General Reader, a warm, sympathetic and humorous character who sees it as his mission to serve the community and help families in distress. Each true life adventure is like a detective story. At times, it's a case of mental illness, at others, an energy or memory that has latched itself onto a place or property. Sometimes he's even encountered fraud. The Mail on Sunday wrote of the book deliverance is an intriguing, strangely comforting book that shines a light into a world that's little talked about. I had the fantastic opportunity to sit and chat with Jason about his book and some of those experiences. He's had what Deliverance Ministering involves and his perspective on the paranormal field. So get comfy and let's get to know a little more about today's guest.

Speaker A: Hi, Jason. Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Speaker C: Very welcome, Michelle. Really great to be with you.

Speaker A: Do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Speaker C: Okay. I'm Jason Bray. I'm basically your bog standard anglican vicar. I work in the church in Wales rather than the Church of England, but there's not really that much difference between the two. And I run St. Giles, which is City Center Church in Rexam, one of those churches where there's lots going on. So this afternoon we've had gosh there was a children's activity group. We've had all sorts of other things happening, lots of activity, lots of lots of stuff happening sort of all the time around me. And it's a really busy ministry, but as well as that, I also do deliverance ministry, which is probably why you're talking to me this evening.

Speaker A: And it's something I'm really looking forward to, kind of getting your perspective on, dive into that, and especially things that your perspective will take your beliefs, as well as, obviously your book, which is fascinating to read. Before we do that, though, I know that one of the things that you touched upon in your book is kind of your first experience of the paranormal, this very real, very frightening, very kind of unknown experience that happened to you later just as you started your family. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that in more detail?

Speaker C: Okay, yeah, sure. So basically, as I said, I'm a vicar, and to become a vicar, you spend a couple of years in theological college, and when you leave, you become something called a curate. Curate is like a sort of apprentice, sort of on the job on the job training. You probably all know that vicars live in vicarages, sometimes the vicarages of the big old Victorian or even Georgian vicarages, most of those have been sold. And vicars tend to live in sort of slightly smaller houses. Keurix, however, because they're starting out, they're right at the very bottom of the pile, basically get the house that they're given. And Keurig's houses usually aren't particularly exciting, and that was basically what happened with us. So I was in theological college, we were married, and my wife was expecting our first child when I was ordained. And we saw the Keurig's house, and it was in January. And Keurig's house wasn't particularly prepossessing. It was a three bedroom house on a it was an estate that had been had been a sort of house estate after the war, but most of the people had actually bought their own houses. And it was an okay house, but it was cold and it was dark and it was damp and it felt a bit and bit unloved. But then it was January, and the previous curator had moved out about a year before that. So the house had been completely empty, and we thought it's cold and dark because it's January. So I was ordained at the end of June, and we sort of moved into the house at that stage, and it was still sort of cold and dark. And we thought, well, actually it's cold and dark because again, it's been empty for a long time, the heating hasn't been on. And it's just sort of one of those things. And maybe because it's on a sort of because the window is facing a particular direction, maybe that's why it's a bit darker than perhaps it should be. So we just live with it. While we were there, our baby Thomas was born and we installed him in the room at the front of the house. So this is above the front door, three bedrooms. Imagine in it. So house above the front door, two external walls. But we decorated it and it seemed to be the best room for him in terms of sort of accessibility. And it was sort of quite a nice room. We decorated it quite nicely. So when he was born, that's where he went. And as we lived in the house, we thought, well, actually, why is it still cold and dark? And so we bled the radiators and that didn't seem to make really very much difference. And my mother made some stunning chanel curtains for all the doors. So we've got this sort of really heavy, thick curtain across the front door and across the back door and cross some of the internal doors, and nothing seemed to make very much difference. It was still cold and dark. So we were heading into the winter. So we thought, well, what are those things, really? That's what happens when you head into the winter. And in those days, this was, gosh, 20, 25, 26 years ago, phones were actually plugged into phone sockets. It's sort of extraordinary to think nowadays that you can sort of wander around days before mobile phones, really, but you had a landline, it was plugged into the wall and basically that's where you stood or sat or whatever to take the phone call. And our phone socket was at the bottom of the stairs and there was always a draft there. So we spent quite a lot of time actually sitting on the stairs and there was always a draft coming down the stairs. So we thought, actually, this is a bit weird. Where's it coming from? Went around with a candle, which is what you do to see where the draft is coming in. Candle flame was completely steady all the way around. I thought, okay, bit OD. So just something going on here. We're not quite sure, but just sort of one of those things, really. And then following June, a couple of things happened. I was ordained as a priest. So for the first year that you're ordained, you're a deacon and then you're ordained as a priest, which is sort of fully qualified. But I was still the curate, I was still the apprentice, and the vicar was still my boss. So I went on a course to learn how to be a priest. And when I came back, my wife said, she said it was really awful when you were gone. You know, that Tom's room is colder than any other room in the house. I said, well, yeah. She said, well, it was when I walked into his bedroom, because he was crying. It felt, you know, stood next to his cot. It felt like I was standing actually in, you know, in a deep breeze. It was so cold. I was frightened for his life. Brought him into bed with me. I wouldn't normally do that. I'd just usually settle him again. But it was awful, absolutely awful. I think there's something badly wrong with this house. We sort of wrote and said, well, perhaps I work with jeremy was my boss. Get him to send the heating engineer out. And we thought, yeah, we'll do that. Before I could do that, something else happened. So I was in bed reading and got out of got out of bed before settling down, went to the toilet and was standing in the bathroom door. And just this sort of horrific feeling that there was somebody standing on the other side of the door. Just that sort of feeling of I know that there is somebody standing there. I don't know how I know that they're there. I could see sort of in my imagination or sort of almost like through the door could see somebody standing there looking at me, about the same height as me, wearing can only describe as a sort of wooden sunburst mask with holes cut into it. And I could see his eyes. It was definitely him. See his eyes tearing straight at me and with sort of interest and then hostility. And I was just absolutely paralyzed and terrified. But my hand out every fiber of my being concentrated on opening the door. There was literally nothing there, or at least I couldn't see anything there. Dived under the duvet. And Laura said, Look, I'm seeing a ghost. I said, I haven't actually seen anything. And then I described what I'd seen. She said, you ain't need to talk to Jeremy straight away. So following evening we were at one of those sort of social events you get in churches. She's a wine party, something like that. I spoke to him and I said, there's something about being wrong with the house. Explain what had happened. About the sort of cold in the nursery, cold next to Tom's Carlton, about this sort of figure that I may or may not have seen. And he said, Sounds like your house needs blessing. You're a priest. Tell you what you can do yourself. And then he looked at me and he said, no, actually, he said, It's your house. I'll come and do it for you. I said yeah. When? He said, well, yeah, I'll come around tomorrow afternoon. So after lunch, he turned up with got some holy water, little sprinkler book of words. And so he said, do you want to come with me and see what I do? So he walked around the house and splashed holy water at the walls. He used some prayers, some of them, I think, were in Latin, but he wouldn't let me see what they were. And he stood for quite a long time in the nursery next to the cot, and then sort of work round back to the living room, said the Lord's Prayer and yeah, the house was different. It was warm, it was light. All the things we hadn't liked about the house had just suddenly, instantly changed, really. And friends were telling us afterwards that they really liked coming to the house. They certainly liked and liked going to the bathroom on their own because there was just something really creepy about the house and it had changed. I was talking to my niece well, actually, when the book came out, she read it and she said she said well, she said, I can remember when we used to come round to your house that Mummy used to say, I think you need to just sort of wrap it warm. Because Jay's House, what they call me, Dre's House, is always absolutely freezing. She said, and this is why. It wasn't because you were too tight to put on the heating, it was because of this sort of weird presence in your house.

Speaker A: And from here, obviously, begins the start of your interest, I suppose, in the paranormal, which may or may not have influenced you into wanting to pursue to become a Deliverance Minister. Do you want to just tell us more about what a Deliverance Minister is?

Speaker C: Right, deliverance Minister is combination of ghostbuster and exorcist, so to use thinking about the Hollywood films. So a lot of what we do is dealing with sort of paranormal phenomena that happens in people's houses. So whole loads of things might happen. So you get sort of things move round spontaneously on their own. Could be shoes or Coke bottles or Coke cans or whatever it is. All those things might move around in their own cutlery, rattles in drawers, that sort of thing. And that's what we call polygized activity. So that's something that happens in the house. Occasionally people will get phenomena like the ones that we experience. So when a house is inexplicably cold or dark, where there's something not quite right about the house, and that's another sort of thing that we deal with, sometimes people see things, so you get what we call place memories, which is basically when something happens and it's sort of almost repeated, like so repeated pattern. So the classic instance would be the Roman soldiers going through the basement of the house in York at sort of waste level, or fox hunts that go through pubs or that sort of thing, or sort of things that people sometimes traumatic things that have happened in houses. So I remember talking once to somebody who was explaining that she wanted the house blessed because they occasionally have to step over the dead body that was at the bottom of the stairs, which was a bit weird. And occasionally you get sort of what we call true hauntings when somebody that you know actually comes back and you see them around the place and there may be some sort of attempt to communicate with you in some sort of way, shape or form. Might not be speaking, but definitely somebody trying to convey a message to you. So we deal with those sorts of things. So in a sense that's the ghostbusting side. We also theoretically deal with the other side of things, which is things that affect people. To be fair, polygonized activity is something that is driven by personalities, really. It's usually an energy that comes from somebody that sort of almost builds up a bit like static electricity and then earths in physical objects, but very difficult to sort of work out what's happening because it can be associated with a whole load of other phenomenon as well. Sort of ghosts or hauntings or whatever it is. We also get quite a few people talking to us about sort of evil spirits. So not evil spirits that affect their houses, but evil spirits that affect them. And so people will ask us to sort of perform an exorcism to try and sort of get rid of the demon. So we have to sort of be very careful at that point because if there isn't a demon there, there is no point trying to expel it.

Speaker A: It's one of those titles, those images that people have where they really do conjure up those precise types of scenarios, needing someone's help for precisely those types of things. But actually it's so much more complex and the paranormal world can be very complex and I think that word sensitivity is absolutely appropriate. Do you want to just tell us how the process of training to be a minister kind of plays out what kinds of things it involves to get to the point of you doing what you're doing?

Speaker C: Yeah, most of it is sort of based on experience, actually. So the idea is you will go out with somebody who's trained and you will learn the ropes from them. But there is also a training course that we go on and usually a sort of three day residential course, and most of it actually focuses on mental health issues rather than anything else. So you learn a bit about sort of hauntings and how to deal with them, but in a sense that's probably the easy bit. So we learn a lot about psychiatry and psychology, about the sort of foundations of people's personality and in a sense, what to look out for. So learning the difference between sort of hearing voices and what might be possession. So just because somebody comes along to say and says, I'm possessed, I'm hearing voices, doesn't necessarily mean that you have to, that an exorcism is appropriate. So actually dealing with the medical stuff rather than rather than the spiritual stuff or the religious stuff, you know, it'd be nice to think that we go off to exorcist school or ghostbusting school and sort of learn like the Harry Potter swish and flick with the hoagie water and that sort of thing. Sadly we don't do that. It's much more rigorous in terms of mental health. So when I was training for the priesthood, went a theological college, I spent two months doing a placement on mental health issues. So part of the placement was working with people with severe learning disabilities and the other part was actually sort of spending time with people in psychiatric hospital, learning actually a bit about them and how they work and what works and what doesn't, and learning about mental health from that point of view. And that's been really useful because it means that I can say actually I've encountered something like this before and I think it's probably going to be this sort of issue rather than rather than a demonic possession.

Speaker A: It's about ministering to the person, isn't it? As much as anything else. And again, I think it comes back to that word sensitivity. You have to handle it with such carefulness because of a situation you're walking into, possibly, but also being very much aware this is also a family, a person also at the heart of it and you have to approach both. And again, it's something I think sometimes within the paranormal field that can be lost by others who are navigating it in a different way. But here is something where you are putting that also at the heart of what you're doing. Really?

Speaker C: Yeah. And one of the things that we do when we go to see people, when we speak to people on the phone or indeed when people contact me by email, is a huge amount of reassurance. That's the most important thing. So in a sense, you're not walking in and saying, I am the exorcist. I tend to walk in and say, hi, I'm Jason, I'm the person who's been sent to sort out your problem. Can you point me where the leakage is in the fabric of reality and I'll sort it out for you, I'll plug it for you. But they shouldn't be afraid of me because most of the time people are absolutely terrified of what's happening around them. And in a sense it is that sort of sensitivity that sort of providing a huge amount of reassurance and saying actually these things do happen to people. Sometimes we can explain them, sometimes we can't explain them. But I've got the experience to be able to sort of navigate you through all of this with annual come to sort of some sort of conclusion, which means that you can live your life relatively normally after this. And it's yeah, in a sense you expect priests vicars to be sensitive, but this sort of requires a sort of high degree of sensitivity. I remember once being called to talk to a family by one of my colleagues, and slightly backhanded compliment, I suppose. But he said to me, well, he said, yeah, that was amazing. He said, I didn't realize you were capable of being quite so nice. Which was sort of yeah, okay, thank you very much for telling me that. But it was quite an interesting observation because that sort of just trying to be kind, gentle and sort of sensitive to what's going on really helps.

Speaker A: I think this is partly why maybe this is something that's not publicized in the way that other things are that happen within the Church, because there does have to be that sensitivity in terms of what goes out into the public domain, too. And so it's kind of normalizing what you're doing, because it is something normal, but at the same time not sensationalizing it. And I think that's the key important, again note about what you're doing and what you're trying not to do.

Speaker C: Yeah, so people read my book and they said, well, actually, it's not particularly exciting. Well, actually what I do isn't particularly exciting. Nothing ever happens when we're there. Things don't kick off, heads don't spin, people don't project our vomit. None of those things actually happen. Occasionally people will kick off and try to demonstrate what it is that is affecting them, which can be quite distressing, but it's never exciting and it's never sensational. It's just sort of actually sort of, okay, let's try and work out what's going on with this situation. But there is in terms of the Church activity, deliverance ministers have been very sensitive about these things over the years. There's a principle that you do it with a minimum of publicity. And this has often been interpreted to mean that we don't tell anyone what we do. We keep it as closely under wraps as we possibly can. Nobody must ever know the identity of any of the deliverance ministers. And it's sort of basically you will never find out about this ministry unless you happen to ask the right person who's plugged into the system. And yeah, I can sort of see why that might be helpful, but ultimately it isn't really, because what we're actually trying to do in the Church is to offer somebody something that will sort of help them. I suppose that's what we try to do all the time with whatever we do, whether it's a sort of wedding or a funeral or a christening or one of our regular services, we are trying to help people. In this case, we're trying to help people with very specific and actually quite frightening needs. And if we're saying actually we're going to keep it so hidden and so private that nobody will ever know about this, well, there's not an awful lot of point in doing it.

Speaker A: It's kind of a tightrope, isn't it? It's a fine balance to walk when you obviously want people to be aware like you mentioned that this is something that's offered, but not to the point where it's sensationalized and becomes all those other negative things that some people associate with the paranormal. But I think it's a really important aspect to have some awareness of and to kind of highlight exactly what it is that you do, because it is very different. And I came across an interesting set of kind of code of conduct policy. I don't know what you would kind of label it as, but it was basically something put out by the Church of England, which is looking at an updated kind of set of briefs about these are some of the things that we've looked at about deliverance ministers over the past however long. These are the kinds of things that I think we need to be doing to improve our practice. And then what you had was just this set of code of ethics and it was so well set out, so clear, but you could see with everything that was being put down, precisely what we've been talking about. This was about sensitivity, it was about being very much aware of the person and the family involved, who you should maybe be working with and working alongside, so that you weren't having to do in isolation, need for privacy, I mean, literally, just one after the other after the other. And you could just see that. Again, there was real thought. There is very much real thought and emphasis on doing this right, being respectful. And I don't know how you feel, but it's something that I see within the paranormal field of people, individuals, organizations going in to support someone who is having a traumatic experience, because that's often at the heart of something. Going on and proclaiming that there is something very demonic and something very negative in their home or attached to that person and saying that they can then deal with it and they may do something and then they leave. And there isn't that aftercare that, again, is provided by the Church as part of this process. It's a very complete process that is there and that's so far different to what you do. I don't know how you feel about what happens elsewhere, but it's something that concerns me.

Speaker C: Yeah, one of the most difficult things is that when people come to us and they say I'm possessed, and you say, well, why do you think you're possessed? Well, because I hear these demonic voices now. My mental health background is telling me if you're hearing voices, the chances are that you're schizophrenic because it is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia and other psychiatric conditions, but particularly schizophrenia. So you'll then sort of say, well, actually, you know, sort of have you talked to your doctor about it or yes. What do your doctor do? Well, doctor gave me some tablets. Right. Have you taken them? No. Well, why haven't you taken them? Because I went online and somebody told me that I wasn't schizophrenic, I was possessed. Oh, right. And we end up going round and round and round and round in this sort of actually you're not possessed this no, actually I went online and I had an online exorcism and they told me that I was possessed and that not to take my tablets. And it is immensely frustrating to be in that sort of particular position. And then you discover that they've actually paid for the exorcises and you think, well, actually, we don't charge anything at all. We try not to take mileage or anything like that. If somebody is going to give us a donation, we insist that it goes to their local church rather than coming to us. So we really don't take any money at all. And I say to talk to people and it can be really frustrating hearing stories of people who've effectively been taken for a ride. I'm not saying that everybody out there who works in this field is out there to make money, but it does feel sometimes that it's really frustrating, you're telling people something that isn't true so that you can make money out of them. There was one particular story that somebody was telling me. They didn't particularly want my help, they just wanted to tell me their story. And she was saying that she'd been to a particular sort of set of people and that she moved on to something else and they must be better because they were more expensive and that she was receiving regular exorcisms. And from my point of view, actually, what she needed was to get to go down to the local GP, to engage with the GP yeah. To sort of receive some sort of spiritual healing as well, and all the pastoral support that the church can provide. But actually, you're really not possessed, you have a mental illness. Really sorry about that. And and it's, it's, you know, it it can be a mentally frustrating and heartbreaking for us to have somebody basically pleading, please exorcise me, and say, well, I can't, because I don't genuinely think that this is the case. Is it worth talking about what we're actually looking for in terms of sort of possession?

Speaker A: I think it's an interesting question, isn't it? What is it that people expect you to find? And I think, again, it's a product of Hollywood, it's a product of things that get put out there, but also a product of something that is sensationalized and continue to be evoked by people because it's what they think they should also be kind of putting out there and what they should be promoting. And for those, sadly, who we've kind of touched upon briefly, those who also take advantage of a situation and can cause car, can cause real harm.

Speaker C: Yeah. So in a sense, we're looking for three basic symptoms of if somebody is possessed. The most obvious thing to say is that if somebody comes. To me and says I'm possessed. I can say to them, categorically, no, you're not. And obviously try to do it with as much sensitivity as I can, but if possession is if your entire being has been taken over by an entity that is not yourself so if you are possessed, that thing has taken over your will, and therefore you would not be standing in front of me telling me that you're possessed. If something else controls your will, they simply wouldn't let you do it.

Speaker A: No, it makes that sense. It's a kind of opposite to what you would expect their behavior to be if they're so out of control, what they're thinking, feeling, processing.

Speaker C: Yeah. So if you're possessed, you wouldn't be standing here telling me because actually the thing that is possessing you wouldn't let you do it. But obviously it needs to be sort of worked into the conversation such a way that, you know, sort of doesn't, doesn't cause them even more distress or cause them to run out or, you know, you know, do something, you know, you know, sort of pretty awful. So what what, you know, what we're looking for in terms of sort of possession is, well, you know, they wouldn't voluntarily submit to an submit to an exorcism, which has all sorts of ramifications for, for human rights legislation, because you be actually, the exorcism would have to be done against their will. So if you're asking for an exorcism, you don't need it. So we'd be looking for preternatural knowledge, usually something that can basically sort of throw you off balance. So there's a particular reported case I mentioned this one in the book of somebody who was actually being exercised in a psychiatric hospital, and the chaplain walked in with somebody else, and, you know, the the person who was going to be exorcised the person who was allegedly possessed. Start new stuff about the hospital chaplain that they shouldn't have known and sort of disreputable elements of his youth, apparently. So that's one thing. You would also be looking for prenatal strength. So somebody is able to sort of throw the dining room table at you as you walk in. That's another thing. And the really weird one is when somebody can speak a language that they've never studied. So again, there are instances of somebody who can speak colloquial Arabic. It's this low lady living in the West Country and you think, well, actually, that's a bit weird. But those would be the symptoms that we're looking for. Hearing voices isn't one of them. And the fact that I'm hearing voices, I'm possessed, I need an exorcism, that's basically sort of flagging to me. Actually, you don't need an exorcism. You obviously do need a huge amount of help, a huge amount of support, but I'm not necessarily the person to provide that support in the first instance, because you really need to engage with the mental health team.

Speaker A: And again, this is where I just think it's a very much rounded approach because it's very much about working with other people if necessary and not trying to do those things outside of your skill set. And again, I think that's possibly a big distinction between some things that happen elsewhere and what you're doing because it's about really engaging with what's needed and necessary for this person as part of that. Ministering but looking to see what other support, what other professionals possibly are part of that process, but at the same time continually following up and giving that aftercare as part of that pastoral support. And it's based on what this person needs. And again, that takes consultation. It takes talking beforehand during and after to really understand the situation rather than just spending five minutes talking to somebody, looking at a house and saying, well, I think it's this, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of effort to try and get to the bottom of something and kind of what's needed and what's necessary.

Speaker C: Yeah. And sometimes we can go out repeatedly to see people. And again, that can be sort of in a sense of frustrating, but whatever frustration we feel, can you come around again? Is sort of nothing to what they're going through, really. And it's sort of trying to sort of keep that sort of sense of yeah, you know, you know, actually we need to get to we need to get to the bottom of this, but we need to do it in such a way that you are not damaged by the process either.

Speaker A: So in terms of some of the cases and experiences that you've had, the book touches on a range of different types of activity, different types of experiences, things that you've had to kind of do as part of that process. And again, I suppose it reflects what we've just been talking about. This isn't something that requires the same thing every time. It's about tailoring what's necessary for the family and trying to identify what's possibly going on to really help and support them through whatever it is that's happening in that particular moment for that family. Do you have any favorite kind of examples of stories or cases that at the end of it, you felt really satisfied knowing that you've really supported those individuals?

Speaker C: Right, yeah, in a sense, the cases that really spring to mind are the cases of basically hauntings, because that's something where you can actually do something and it works. So working with somebody who's got a whole load of mental health issues can take a very long time. And in a sense, it's a constant therapeutic process, whereas it's much more satisfying, obviously, to walk in and do to the zap and it works and everything's sorted and you can walk and you think, hey, that was good. So, Lucy so one of my favorite stories is the Lucy Story. Lucy, if you're listening to this, thank you. Thank you very much for allowing me to share share your story once again. So Lucy was Lucy's friend of mine. She used to live in a gosh, sort of Edwardian semi hatched house, quite a big house, and lived there with her family. Again, slightly OD house. It was supposed to be dark, but then it was sort of sort of north facing, so it was sort of, you know, you might expect that. And stuff used to happen around the house. Things used to disappear and then reappear. Her son was absolutely meticulous about sort of organizing things like shoes and trainers and that sort of thing would sort of line them up. I suppose teenagers doing that is weird in its own right, isn't it? But instead of leaving trainers across the bedroom floor, he'd line them up. And then he'd discovered that one of the trainers would disappear and would reappear on top of the boiler or sort of in the freezer or something like that. And something not quite right. And that's, I suppose, polygonist activity, which I said can be triggered by a whole range of things. So basically, Lucy called me in because she knew that I do this sort of thing. She's a friend of mine. When a couple of weird things happened, actually. She used to hear organ music, which sounds really corny, but it was a sort of quite jolly Yamaha type organ music and used to hear this coming from next door and sort of quite faintly. And when her next door neighbor moved out, she was talking to her next door neighbor. She said, yeah, we missed the organ playing. What organ playing? One of you is really good at the organ and just faintly, occasionally we can hear it. No, nobody plays the organ. But the old lady who used to live in your house, who died before you bought the house, she used to be theater organist down in town when they when they used to have those things when she was a girl, obviously, she she was, you know, this happened quite a while ago, 20 years ago or so. And, you know, so they said, you know, this old lady had been I don't know how long she'd been dead by that stage, but when she was when she was a girl, she was theater organist and the cinema organist and so okay, it's a bit strange. It's definitely not us. So they continue to hear the Yamaha music from time to time. Okay, fair enough. Then one day, Lucy was sitting in the living room. She got the living room door open passage, and then she could see the stairs and she could see somebody coming down the stairs. And it seemed to be an old lady, really. She conceived sort of pair of slippers and pink nylon mighty. And the sort of figure was sort of slowly appearing in front of her as it came down the stairs. And she screamed and told her to go away and realized at that point that probably she needed she needed the cavalry. So she called me in. So I went around and sort of talking to her and I said, you sure it wasn't a figment of your imagination? She said, look, if I was going to imagine a ghost, the ghost would not be wearing a pink nylon. Mighty, okay, fair enough. And all these sort of things going on. Occasionally we hear footsteps running down the stairs, and we thought that was next door. The walls are so solid, you hear nothing through there anyway, so there's something wrong. Please sort it out. So the theory is that if somebody has seen something, somebody who is identifiable, identifiably, sort of haunting the house, you basically celebrate a Requiem Mass. So the idea is that require Mass is basically a sort of Eucharist community service Mass, whatever you want to call it, for the repose of the soul of the dead. So basically you're praying for the dead person to basically go to go on to the next plane of existence, wherever that is. And so that's what we did. So we're just setting up and then suddenly a plateau, bang. And her parents have turned up and they come and we knew you were here. Hi, Jason, it's great to see you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. I really didn't want an audience for this one. It was just me and Lucy before and now you've turned up. Yeah, great, fine. Join in. Why not? So Requiem basically works on the principle that you sort of begin the Eucharist service, a couple of readings, and then you go around, you bless the house with holy water. You bless holy water, go around, sprinkle the house, come back, and then the Eucharist is celebrated. So Eucharist basically you're taking bread and wine and the words over the bread is the night before he died, the Lord Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, gave it to his disciples and said, this is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. And then you sort of pick up the bread, and then you put it back down. And the same with the wine. This is my blood which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. And then we said the Lord's Prayer together and that was it. And that seemed to work. The house was okay. She didn't see anything afterwards, but I was talking to her and she said, my dad occasionally sees stuff and he actually saw something while you were doing it. So I spoke to him and I said, okay, what did he see? And he said, it was like this is a mist gathering around you and behind you while you were saying the words. And he said, when you picked up the bread, he said, the mist disappeared. I said, When I picked up the bread at what point he said you were talking about this is yeah, this is my body words. I said. Oh, right. Okay. Because that would be, according to traditional theology, the theory behind these things, that's when Jesus actually becomes present. And Christians, of course, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, god himself. And so the tradition of the Eucharist is that when actually God becomes almost physically present at that point. And that was when the mist disappeared. That was amazing.

Speaker A: It kind of gives me goosebumps because there's something quite beautiful in it, isn't there? Just those things coming together in that moment described later.

Speaker C: And in a sense, I didn't lead him. I wasn't leading the witness, my Lord. Well, what did you see? That Peter bread. It disappeared. Okay. What was I doing? What was I saying? At that point? He said, yeah, he was talking about this sort of this is my body bit and then you pick the bread and then the mist disappeared. And Frank actually are telling a story in the little bit of his story in the book and sort of quite sensitive to these things. But that was quite a satisfying experience because that was one where this is one that basically the cavalry went in and we zapped it. I hope the old lady, she was moved on to be an explain of existence, ended up in a nice place.

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Speaker A: Episode Description Notes as well as on The Haunted History Chronicles website. Thank you so much for your support. And now let's head back to the podcast. But it is it's kind of treating it in the way that is necessary, like we've said, for the family, the person, the individual that is being affected by it and being mindful as well and respectful for possibly the spirit that is there. Again, if we're thinking about buzwords, respect, integrity, these are all things at the heart of what you're doing.

Speaker C: Yeah, because in a sense, and it's very difficult to know what's happening in a case like that, the old lady should not have been there. I've encountered this a couple of times where somebody's been so fond of a house that they are still there. You know, you get it with the traumatic stuff with a guy fell down the stairs and broke his neck and the family stepping over, stepping over the dead body at the bottom of the stairs. He wasn't there, he wasn't trying to communicate. In this case, it was almost like she was still around somehow house that she'd obviously loved and I think she might actually have died there, but that's in a sense probably immaterial. Doesn't matter whether she died there or not, but then sort of part of her was still almost trapped in the house, and actually moving her on seems like the sort of responsible thing to do for her, but also for the family who then have to live in the house as well. Because living with a ghost, with a haunted you know, living in a haunted house is actually quite an unpleasant experience. The house doesn't feel right, things don't feel right. And that podcast activity, the stuff moving round, that can be very often somebody's deep seated reaction to the fact that there is something really not right at the house, that there is some sort of presence there that shouldn't be there.

Speaker A: It's kind of realizing that that kind of activity is something that can be stirred up either by the living or by the dead. It's about energy, like you mentioned, static energy. It's build up of what is being put out into that space, which can also then cause phenomena and hauntings in their own right. And again, it's something I see and I think about more and more within the paranormal field. When you look at research and experiments and things like the Philip experiment, the idea that something can be conjured or created, an activity created by the very energy that we put in as individuals, sometimes with awareness or otherwise.

Speaker C: Yeah, I've often wondered about I don't know whether it's staged, but sort of things like most haunted. I have wondered how that works and whether if you basically take some people, you tell them that this is a haunted the most haunted house in Derbyshire, or wherever it is, and you sit them there and basically you wind them up, you turn the lights off, I wonder whether and something always happens. There was a bang or knock or something like that. And I have wondered whether that's actually a way of effectively creating the conditions for porting ice activity. I don't know because I've never really gone into it in that much detail, but I have often wondered whether these things happen under those circumstances and are sort of not faked, but sort of manufactured.

Speaker A: You kind of reference a similar incident in the book with the story of the shattered vase, which is precisely that it's something being created by something else, but it's causing real, physical, tangible experiences and it's the same type of scenario but obviously in a different format. In your case, do you want to just explain the story of the chatterbars? Because it's a fascinating one and I think it really does kind of reference what we were just talking about in terms of we can stir this up ourselves.

Speaker C: Yeah. So trans advance. So woman contacted me by accident. She hadn't meant to contact me at all. She was looking for somebody completely different, and she just happened to ring in the days when people had telephone directories and Yellow Pages and whatever. And so I was running a church called St. Peter's at the time, and I think she was looking for a different St. Peter's, but she found me, which is just as well, because I could help her. And so the story was that she was looking for somebody to help her. She and her son lived on their own in the house, and she was a single mother, and there wasn't reference to a father at all. Don't know whether he'd ever been on the scene, but someone was a teenager, and they lived together, and things started to sort of happen in the house, so there were sort of things rattling in the kitchen, and I think Coke pots had gone flying, whatever. And so she got in the local Roman Catholic priest, and the local Roman Catholic priest would have blessed the house, and these things continue to happen. So he went around again. He said, well, has anybody in the family had any contact with the Ouija board? And she made inquiries, and she discovered that her brother had once worked on had once done something with a Ouija board. And so the Roman Catholic priest said, well, actually, you know, so maybe he's let something through and he's come around to your house and he's let it out. Didn't seem particularly likely to me, but there you go. Anyway, so he celebrated mass there. The house just continued to these things just continued to happen. And she called me in when said she was looking for looking for a different vicar from a different church. She found me, from what I can work out. She was standing at the bottom of the stairs. She was yelling at her son. Her son was standing at the top of the stairs and was basically just taking this you can imagine this sort of sullen teenager. She's giving him absolutely everything that she's got. Two barrels. He's standing there and basically absorbing all this angst and anger and his own inability to express anything and all that sort of stuff. And then the vase, her favorite thing in all the world, her mother's vase, which was behind her, shattered. She was absolutely terrified. He was also terrified as well. And she realized at that point that she needs to call somebody else in. I think the Roman Catholic priest might actually have moved on by that stage. So called me in and basically was almost open, shut case of podcast activity. That sort of the tension between them when he walked into the house was palpable, despite the fact that he was actually in bed and to sleep when we got there. And it went around with a colleague. I always tried to take a colleague with me. And so the colleague was a woman and it was just this sort of really tense atmosphere, even though, as I said, he was going there and she was saying how useless he wasn't, good for nothing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she was telling the story, you could see that how angry she was about the fact that her son was basically a useless layabout. And basically what had happened was that the tension had built up and something had gone and it had earthed itself in a physical object and trying to sort of so he blessed the house and then tried to explain to her what was going on, which was sort of actually not a particularly easy thing to do. So is my son possessed? No, he's not possessed. Is he evil? No, he's not evil. This is just an energy and sort of think of static electricity. That's quite a useful thing that I use when I'm talking about these things. Actually. It just built up and built up and built up and it shattered. Well, why my mother's vials? Well, that was the thing that was there, but it was sort of almost an open and shut case. But it taken several ghosts to work it through. And in a sense, because the Roman Catholic priests had actually gone in and done some of the groundwork, we were able to say, okay, the house isn't haunted. How do you know? Well, actually, if the Roman Catholic priest came and celebrated a requiem mass, it's not haunted. Believe me, that would sort that out. So there must be something else going on. The Ouija board stuff, I think is probably a complete red herring. I'm not at all convinced that Ouija boards let anything through, but there you go.

Speaker A: I don't have that. I think again. It's Hollywood.

Speaker C: Yeah. My son's more of a knows more about these things than I do. He sort of bend ages, sort of looking at paranormal stuff and is now working in London and goes to sort of went to this haunted house, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he was saying that actually it was entirely manufactured by Hollywood. And also that if you blindfold people when they're doing Ouija boards, the thing doesn't move.

Speaker A: I mean, there's an awful lot of data and testing and it's like anything in the paranormal field, really, when you have the human element in it, unconsciously or consciously, we can be affecting what it is that we're using. And it's something I've said a lot on the podcast before with other guests and so on. It's about knowing your equipment and kind of being mindful of your place within that as well.

Speaker C: We're always bringing something to absolutely, quite literally to the table. If it's a Ouija board absolutely.

Speaker A: And if it's something that you're using. How can you prove what again, it's like any piece of a paranormal equipment. How can you prove how can you validate what it is that's coming through? And it's having those kinds of questions. And I was just speaking to a previous guest who was doing precisely that. How can we validate this kind of communication? What can I do to try and set this up to validate things that come through? And that's the interesting side of the paranormal field that is fascinating. It's kind of those bigger questions different to what you do, because those are not things that you have to bring into your everyday experience. You're not going in with a toolkit of a K two meter and a REM pod and all of these other things. That's not what you're about. It's a very different side and a very different branch of the paranormal field.

Speaker C: And it is quite interesting, sort of. I occasionally encounter paranormal investigators, and they're just approaching it from a different completely different point of view. So occasionally I'll say, yeah, people have shown me footage of polygonist activity. Wow, that's brilliant. No, it isn't, actually. It's boring. My bracelet. Look, it's moving. Yeah, I can see it's moving. It's definitely moving. Yeah, it's moving on its own. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I can see that it's moving. I don't disbelieve you. What I want to do is to do something about it, to stop it moving. And in a sense, it's almost the opposite thing. I'm not investigating. I'm not a paranormal investigator. I'm not investigating what's going on so that I can investigate it so that I can understand. I'm investigating so that I can stop it.

Speaker A: And again, you're investigating to minister. You're trying to bring it to some kind of conclusion as opposed to gathering evidence for bigger and a bigger question. You're there for a very specific reason.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Because people will come to us because they want whatever it is, to stop. Yes, I live in a haunted house. I don't want to live in a haunted house. Can you sort it out? These things are going on around me. I'm hearing these things. What can I do to stop it? And in a sense, that's what we're dealing with rather than actually trying to sort of work out what the phenomena are and what they're doing. And it's quite interesting from the church's perspective that we have. In a sense, we don't really have a theory, a theology for ghosts and spirits and hauntings and all that sort of thing. We're slightly better on demons. Not very much, though. But how does this work in terms of church theology? And it's quite an interesting field and not one that we particularly go down. In fact, there are some Christians that would say, actually, any ghost is an evil spirit. And you must be dealing with when you deal with the ghost, it isn't actually leftover bits of somebody's consciousness it is actually an evil spirit that needs to be cast out. And I don't see it that way at all. The little old lady who was going down the stairs with her pink with her pink night, he was not evil. She was probably something that was left over because she loved it rather than because it was anything evil. It was almost an excess of love rather than the opposite.

Speaker A: It's again, it touches on so many things that I've spoken about before, and this notion that it has to be something dangerous and something demonic and something terrifying, again, is something very much put out by media. And yes, someone might be terrified, they might be encountering something very scary, and that's something to attend to, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's something of that nature. And people in life can be cruel, they can be unkind, they can do things too frightened, too scared to be mean. And so, yes, you might very well encounter someone like that in death who is trying to cause fear. But most of the time, what you're experiencing is precisely what you were talking about. It is something very benign, usually, but it's the reaction, it's the person who's living, experiencing that that for them, it's very frightening. And so what you've got is this kind of situation where it's continuing to grow because of that fear, because it's something different, it's unknown more than anything else. And what can they do? And they don't necessarily then know what to do next to help rectify that situation.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's when the fear ramps up that things start to go horribly wrong. So that's when you start to get all this weird and wacky poltergeist activity happening around you, and that's more frightening. And then it just spirals, spirals spectacularly out of control. And what we're trying to do is to sort of go in and say, actually, these things happen. We we do a reasonable number of these, you know, that's just us in this little diocese. You know, we we do about a dozen of these a year. These things are surprisingly common. And actually, we're here to help. We're here to sort of calm things down and we're here to resolve these issues, but please don't be frightened. And in a sense, that's where the conversation begins. Okay, can you tell me exactly what's been going on, please? The whole idea of I tell the story in the book about sort of Pete and and his and his ex boyfriend. He used to appear well, appear in all sorts of places in the house and but that was a sort of, you know you know, that was a protection sort of thing. You know, the the dead ex boyfriend was basically sort of turning it to sort of protect him in some way and check him out. The fact that he sort of pulled back the shower kit and then he's in the shower quite distressing in. Its way. But actually, strangely enough, Pete, my friend, didn't seem to be particularly distressed. What was worrying him was that this guy that he'd cared about was actually stuck on the wrong side, that he needed to be moved on for his own sake. That was really interesting. Sort of settling hand as well. Yeah, of course. He's not going to hurt me. He's my friend. Everyone else has seen this guy who stands at the bottom. The bed, in the spare room can be identified by a whole load of sort of house guests. And as I said, the whole idea of the sort of naked Australian boyfriend in the shower just sort of.

Speaker A: Slightly bizarre, really unusual.

Speaker C: Unusual. And there'd be this sort of scream and a thud from the bathroom. He's there again.

Speaker A: Absolutely. But again, it's just the fact that that's a completely different situation here. You've got the person affected, not really perturb for themselves, but they're fearful for the person that they love who's coming back and wanting that kind of resolution. And again, it comes back to what we've said all along. You're there to minister to the situation, to everyone, the spirits, the living people that it's affecting, possibly. And if it's not a haunting, if it's something that that person needs spiritually, medically, you are there to attend to what is the situation, to try and bring some resolution and care. And again, it's all of those words that we were talking about. It's ethics, it's sensitivity, it's attention to detail, it's privacy. It's all of these things to try and bring that resolution to that situation.

Speaker C: Yeah, you're right.

Speaker A: I'm curious as to whether your caseload, if you've kind of seen a change in your caseload, because you've been doing this for a number of years, have you seen it grow? Is it something that continues to grow? Because obviously the paranormal field gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and over the last 20 or so years, it's kind of had this real explosion. I'm just wondering if it's something that you've seen really play into what you do and the church as a wider body, if they've seen that kind of process, that evolution.

Speaker C: Yeah, I suppose when I first started, these things were very few and far between. It probably has increased. So, as I said, as a team, we do about a dozen a year, but it's difficult to tell whether my caseload is because I've become more prominent, obviously. So people are now getting in touch with me directly and also people are now coming to me when they wouldn't otherwise have come to me, if that makes sense. So the fact that people will know what I do locally means that people are more likely to get in touch with me rather than with somebody else. So, in a sense, that's something that affects me in particular. Whether my colleagues across the board have seen increasing cases. I think they probably have, actually, because there are significantly more of us now doing this sort of thing than they used to be. So if you go on, there's a sort of national training. We go on. It's run by the Church of England. But the church in Wales. As I said, I'm Anglican Breeze, but I work in the church in Wales. The Scottish Episcopal Church also shares in it as well. And I think the Church of Ireland send people to and the fact that they're continuing to sort of run these courses and the number of people who are going on the courses seems to increase suggests that there is more of a call for people to go out and do this sort of thing. It's interesting, during the Pandemic that we did nothing. We got really it was, for want of a better word, completely dead. So we went into the sort of lockdown and I did a case at the end of August, and that was it. So from March to August, there was only one that came in at all other places. Other dioceses were reporting a significant uptick in cases during the sort of early days of the Pandemic, when lots of people were locked down, we didn't so be localized as well.

Speaker A: That's an interesting one, because you would expect an uptake in reports because people are spending pretty much 24/7 in their.

Speaker C: Homes and yeah, and we we did get some of that, so so we had basically three lockdowns from memory. You know, we get slightly hazy at this stage, really.

Speaker A: I think we wanted to get it as well.

Speaker C: But I think it was in the second lockdown that we started experiencing people who were sort of basically coming in saying, well, not coming in, saying, everything's gone completely haywire. There was one house that I was called to that was in the January, so we were talking about the American elections and there was basically whole load of stuff because they were going stir crazy because they were suddenly out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And again, you could just expect on that level, for precisely that reason, just over imagination, because someone's bored, they're seeing the same four walls all the time. But at the same time, you might also have the opposite. It could be something very genuine, very real. And because someone's in that space more than they usually are, maybe they're just starting to clue into it and see it. And obviously then being in that space all of the time, that energy, again, like we've mentioned, then can build up. So you could have something being reported for a variety of reasons.

Speaker C: Yeah. And in a sense, it takes the sensitivity and the experience to work out which one of these things it is. Whether it's something that is genuinely paranormal in the sense of by genuinely paranormal, I mean some sort of presence that belongs to somebody that isn't in the house or the sort of basically pole canceled activity which is generated. By the fact that somebody is just absolutely sort of freaking out, in a sense and just going stir crazy, but with the emphasis on the sort of crazy bit. And actually quite it wasn't a difficult one to deal with, but it felt quite threatening, really, because I was there on my own with him, because, of course, it was the pandemic. And you could just to back get away with going to see one person on their own at that stage legally. But you couldn't couldn't take hello to people with you.

Speaker A: And again, I think this is the side of the deliverance ministry that people might be surprised about, but there is real thought behind the structure of how it's all operated. I mean, you're insured you try not to go alone just in terms of you in that position. But then obviously we've spoken about the people involved. There really is this very joined together approach and thinking to safeguard everybody, really, which again, I think is an important thing to recognize, that you wouldn't expect necessarily for the church to really condone these types of things or to think that this is something that sits comfortably within the Christian faith. But actually there is this whole kind of machine and thought and structure that has been precisely put in to tackle these anomalies, these things that happen.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's been sort of part of the journey. Having written the book was then published, I ended up doing gosh this morning with Phil and Holly, and so their researcher was asking me, well, I thought this was the sort of sort of thing the church didn't believe in. And I said, well, actually, yes, it does. Well, it must believe in it because they appoint people like us to deal with them and they ensure people like us to deal with them. Oh, you've got insurance. Yeah, because if something goes wrong, you need some sort of insurance. And this is something that the judge actually does take very seriously. You do have this sort of we have people that we can call on, so in our group we've got a medic and we can talk to them about sort of difficult cases and about what sort of medication people might be on as well. That's quite useful. What's going to cause you aren't any sort of medication that's going to cause these particular side effects.

Speaker A: As I say, it's a fascinating subject to look at and I think for anybody really interested, picking up your book would be a really interesting read. To see this approach, to see something maybe unexpected that they wouldn't think that the church was engaging in, but also people interested in the paranormal field to see what the church's stance is and the types of things that you're doing quietly behind the scenes and maybe see what people can pull from that practice into what they're doing so that we don't have more and more of these instances of people going in and clearing homes and clearing demons and possessions and all of these other things being a little bit more mindful and respectful that sometimes there's something else larger at play and we don't want to be doing harm because that side of the paranormal is so unusual. I mean, I can't imagine in however long, however many years that you've been doing this, you've ever actually had to perform an exorcism. I would be very doubtful.

Speaker C: I haven't. I went on a, you know, one of these massive zoom calls calls, and somebody actually, you know, sort of said that they had performed one. And it was one of these it was one of these cases where it was in a psychiatric hospital. This person was traveling in the psychiatric hospital and was basically sort of asked by the medical professionals to perform an exorcism, working on the principle that it wasn't wasn't going to work because the person was so convinced that they were possessed rather than mentally ill that they basically needed to rule that out for that person's satisfaction. Look, we journal an exorcism. It didn't work. He was the only person on the call who admitted to having done one. And in a sense, he said, he said, well, we did it and it didn't work. And then they were able to say, look, we did an exorcism. It didn't work. Take your tablets.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So for us, exorcisms, genuine cases of demonic possession are theoretical possibility, and we're trained to look for them. But in a sense, given the extremity of the three symptoms we're looking for, you don't have to look very hard.

Speaker A: To find something that disproves it.

Speaker C: Yeah, but also, if somebody is exhibiting one of those symptoms, it's going to be fairly obvious.

Speaker A: But I think sometimes it's stating precisely that, that you actually have to look for the obvious before you look for the extreme. And I think the extreme is exciting and it's sensationalist. And again, it's Hollywood. It's all of those things, but it's not the norm. And I say the same thing about paranormal investigating. The first thing you should be doing is trying to ask that question, well, what could possibly be causing that sound? What could be causing that piece of equipment to react? It may not be anything paranormal. It may be just the old piping. It might be traffic on the road. I mean, there's so many things that could be causing what you're seeing. You have to ask that question first. And again, you're precisely doing that with when you're going in talking to individuals to kind of investigate what's happening, look for the obvious, look for the normal first before something extreme, and to kind of use that example of exorcism. It should be the extreme. It's not the everyday.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time. Honestly, it's fascinating. Like I said, I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend people going and taking a look at your book deliverance. So I'll make sure to get all of that onto the website and the podcast description notes and everything. So people really can see this approach. That real examples that you've had through your role. But obviously just also being able to see the church's stance and kind of have that approach and maybe bring that into their own experience if they're a paranormal investigator, but also just someone who's interested, I think it's something that they'll find really valuable to have a read of.

Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure, michelle, thank you. Thank you for having me on, and.

Speaker A: I'll say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody.

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Speaker A: Never listened to the podcast over there.

Speaker B: But are able to, please head on.

Speaker A: Over, listen to an episode or several.

Speaker B: And please leave a review over the.

Speaker A: Month of April to celebrate our 100 episodes. I'm hoping we can achieve 100 reviews on the Apple platform.

Speaker B: If we do, then I'm looking to.

Speaker A: Set up some live question and answer.

Speaker B: Calls, along with some other events to.

Speaker A: Help celebrate us achieving this.

Speaker B: Target Haunted history.

Speaker A: Chronicles podcasts needs you.

Speaker B: Thank you.