Exploring Hauntings and Poltergeists with Randy Liebeck

Michelle: Before we dive into the eerie tales of the past, I have some electrifying news to share with you. I'm excited to announce that the Haunted History Chronicles podcast now has its very own small shop of the macabre and mysterious. Picture this exclusive merchandise, hauntingly beautiful artwork, spine tingling stickers, mugs that will make your morning coffee seem positively paranormal, and prints that capture the ghostly essence of days gone by. Whether you're a longtime listener of the show or a newcomer drawn to the enigmatic allure of haunted history, the shop is your gateway to the supernatural. Imagine decorating your space with a piece of history, a connection to the spectral past. The merchandise is designed to evoke the very essence of the stories I share, making it an essential addition to your collection of all things eerie. You can find all these hair raising treasures on the website, or simply follow the links conveniently placed in the podcast. Description notes it's so easy, even a ghost could do it. So whether you're searching for the perfect addition to your Haunted memorabilia collection or just wanting to immerse yourself in the world of the supernatural, the shop is here to provide. Dive into the past, embrace the spook, and let the stories of history's ghosts haunt your space. So why not visit the shop today and remember, the spirits of the past are waiting for you. The Haunted History chronicles exclusive merchandise is just a click away. Happy shopping, and may the spirits be with you. Hi Everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. First of all, thank you for taking.

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Michelle: Welcome to another episode of Haunted History Chronicles. Tonight, prepare to be mesmerized as we delve deep into the realm of the ethereal and the unknown, exploring the enigmatic world of ghosts and poltergeists. My esteemed guest for this episode is none other than Randy Lebeck, a distinguished figure in the field of paranormal research and investigation. As a seasoned writer, commentator, and renowned authority on ghost and poltergeist Phenomena, Randy brings a wealth of expertise and a lifetime of experiences that bridge the gap between the realms of the tangible and the spectral. Randy's illustrious career spans far beyond the conventional boundaries of the paranormal. A decorated former police officer and federal national security operations manager, his background in criminal and administrative investigations lends a unique perspective to the intricate web of otherworldly occurrences. Serving as the US Representative for the Society for Psychical Researchers Spontaneous Case Committee and the New Jersey State Representative for the Ghost Research Society, Randy's tireless dedication to uncovering the mysteries of the Unknown has garnered international recognition and acclaim. His contributions to publications such as Fate Magazine, Unknown Magazine, and Ghost have solidified his position as a respected voice in the paranormal community. With his work and case studies being featured in numerous books and media outlets worldwide, Randy's extensive knowledge in the field of parapsychology has not only led him to consult for globally acclaimed television programs such as sightings, dead, famous and Unsolved Mysteries, but has also earned him the distinction of being a sought after guest on various radio talk shows and podcasts, captivating audiences with his compelling insights and first hand encounters with the unexplained. With an impressive educational background from esteemed institutions like the University of Edinburgh's parapsychology Unit, Randy has not only deepened our understanding of the supernatural, but has also nurtured the minds of future investigators through his course on ghost and poltergeist phenomena at St. John's University. Join us as we embark on an unprecedented journey through the realms of the spectral and the mysterious. Guided by the expertise and wisdom of Randy Liebeck, brace yourselves for an unforgettable exploration of the unseen, where the veil between the living and the departed grows thin. Prepare for a hauntingly riveting encounter with the world beyond.

Michelle: Hi Randy. Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Randy Liebeck: Hi Michelle. It's my pleasure.

Michelle: Do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself? And what was it that first got you started and intrigued with investigating the world of the paranormal? Really?

Randy Liebeck: Well, I would describe myself as just a guy who's fascinated with the subject of the unknown and unexplained. And I've been dabbling in the field as a researcher and field investigator since the mid to late 1980s. What got me interested in the subject in the beginning, as a child growing up in New Jersey and then later in North Carolina as a kid. And when I was first learning how to read, my grandmother subscribed to a magazine called Fate Magazine, which is the oldest continuously published paranormal magazine in the world. And so I grew up reading her issues, reading stories about allegedly true stories about haunted houses, poltergeists, UFOs, Bigfoot, psychic phenomena. So that was one of the first subjects I was exposed to as a child, and the interest just grew up along with me.

Michelle: And there are a number of people who I've spoken about who get into it for various different reasons. And along the way, they have people who very much influenced their thought patterns, their approaches, either through investigating, through research, through reading, through taking part in workshops and talks with various individuals. And I'm just interested if there were particular people or bodies of thought that really helped in that early stage to influence you and how you wanted to approach researching the paranormal yourself.

Randy Liebeck: Well, after my initial introduction through Fate magazine, and I realized, hey, these are not just spooky stories that we see on TV shows and movies, but there appears to be some underlying reality to these phenomena. I started haunting my local public library, and the library did not have very many books on ghosts and haunted houses per se, but they did have a parapsychology section. So some of the first books I began reading, age 8910 on the subject were books by J. B. Rhine, J. G. Pratt, Loisa Rhine, JB's wife. So I was exposed as a child to the science of it. Parapsychology, esp, psychokinesis, clairvoyance, and then also the haunted house and poltergeist phenomena was part of that equation. So I started out very early looking at this through a parapsychological lens, the science of it, from as best as I could comprehend that as a nine and ten year old.

Michelle: Yeah, it's not typical reading material for someone at that age, but I can appreciate it because those are things that I think I was interested in from a really young age, too, and just would read up on or research as best as I could through whatever materials, however limited, that was in my own school library or the local library. So I very much kind of followed a similar kind of route to yourself, really, in terms of just wanting to read up and find out more from a really young age. I just had one of those brains that liked asking questions and liked the unknowns, and here was something that was that precisely the unknown.

Randy Liebeck: And growing up reading Fate magazine in particular, Mary and Curtis Fuller were the publishers of the magazine, so their ideas and thoughts and presentations influenced me back in the. John Keel was doing a lot of writing, and he was a columnist for fate. So I was exposed to John Keel's high strangeness ideas, which introduced me to the idea that not all of what is experienced in the world can be quantified and qualified in a parapsychology laboratory. Some people have some experiences which are really strange. That does not mean they're any less real. They just might not fit into the current scientific or even parapsychological paradigm. And D. Scott Rogo and Raymond Bayless were two investigators and authors who greatly influenced my approaches and take on these.

Michelle: You know, you mentioned that you have been working in this field and interested in this field for such a long time. And across that journey, you've been consulting, you've been writing, you have been researching, you've been doing investigating. I mean, lots and lots of different hats in this area. What I wanted to kind of ask, based on the discussion that we've just been having, is whether that early influence, those early influences, those reading materials, those people that you are kind of taking on board, whether they shaped your approach today in terms of how you approach investigating, the methodology that you use whilst investigating and researching and writing, et cetera.

Randy Liebeck: Certainly most people, whatever their career, advocation or hobby is whatever they're interested in, they don't get involved in it in a vacuum. We all read, learn, and there's not much reinventing the wheel in this field. I do not believe there are any hypotheses in parapsychology or paranormal phenomena that were not first developed by researchers in the 18 hundreds beyond possibly quantum mechanics and the idea of multiple dimensions. But even those were addressed by scientists in the 18 hundreds. I just feel lucky that my initial exposure, and by osmosis picking up ideas and methodologies through that exposure. I'm lucky that it was through JB Rhine, J. G. Pratt, D. Scott Rogo, and not through an initial exposure of watching pulp popular TV shows, ghost hunting shows, the dozen or so that are on around the world which are harmful to the field of the study of anomalous phenomena. I won't name any I have before and people get angry at me. But there is a storied historical scientific approach to this with a well developed history and methodology. And then there are what you find on the Discovery Channel and History Channel, which are fun, popular. Scream in the dark fiction.

Michelle: Yeah, it's something I've spoken about on the podcast many, many times myself. I just think one is, like you said, it's entertainment and the other is investigation. It's research. And they are two very different bodies, two very different beasts. And 1 may get you interested and started, but it's certainly not the model. And I think it's about. This is partly why I do the podcast. It's about making people aware of other people with really interesting voices and perspectives, thoughts, areas of research that for someone who maybe is new to this area or very experienced, might have their thinking changed about, or at least ask different questions or see something and reexamine something.

Randy Liebeck: Again, that is the hope. And that might be, probably is one area. These TV programs can be helpful if somebody's first exposure to the paranormal, the unknown or the anomalous is through watching these TV shows, which can be fun and exciting and a little bit funny. But if that piques their interest, if that prompts them to say, hey, I want to learn more about this. I actually want to go out and read some books, read some magazine articles or journal articles, or see who on the Internet, what researchers really look into this, not just on a weekly TV show. If this spurs an interest, which also includes the critical thought process, when they look into this, then these shows can have a use as an introduction. But I think that other than entertainment value, after that introduction, what these shows present as reality needs to be left behind.

Michelle: So one of the many hats that you have is that you obviously go in and you investigate, you research and you document, and you're looking at phenomena, whether it's through referral, through someone coming to you individually, or a referral through a different agency. And I wonder if you could walk us through the kind of the steps as to what you do and how you approach that in the initial stages, what it is as an investigator, you look at and you start to think about when determining what your next steps are and what you're going to do.

Randy Liebeck: Well, every case is different, so there is not a definite checklist I follow when I evaluate these cases. But in general, I listen to what the initial report is, what the people say or they are experiencing. And the key to all of this is that it's based on human experiences. People living, people have seen, heard, felt, sensed something, or they perceive that they have. I look at those reports, what are they experiencing? And I determine whether or not it's something that I'm interested in. A lot of these reports, after I look at the initial report or do my first email or phone interview with them, I realize, hey, this is not really something that I would regard as authentic paranormal phenomena or what we interpret as such. Or it might be something which may be valid and it's a valid experience, but it might be more in the field of UFO experiences, or somebody encountering some cryptid strange animal like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. All interesting areas. That's not really what I do. If people are saying they're experiencing some sort of demonic activity, again, not my ballywick. I'm not going to discount their experiences, but it's something I do not get involved with personally. Once I determine, hey, this is a subject area that may be of interest, then I will do follow up interviews, investigations. I have a series of. I say I don't have a checklist. I actually do for different types of phenomena. I have a checklist or a question and answer scenario that I go through to see what they're experiencing, to see if what they say is happening corresponds with what we have found actually happens. In those kinds of cases, I want to see if what they say theY're experiencing is something which is backed up by the hundreds or thousands of previous reports by people which do show patterns in phenomenology of what occurs and what is experienced, or if they are telling me things that it seems obvious they've picked up from watching TV shows or watching horror movies. And I get a good amount of those too. But buried in those I do get what I think are some good solid cases where the people, at least sincerely feel that they are experiencing something anomalous from the get go. I look at what the phenomenology is, what they say they are experiencing, and I try to determine, hey, okay, they're experiencing this, but are there alternative explanations? If somebody is feeling cold spots, if somebody is noticing that the lights in their house are acting strange, if the TV is changing channels when no one's touching the remote control, okay, that's really happening. But is it necessarily something anomalous or paranormal? So I try to evaluate possible alternatives, and I delve into that during the questioning process. If I think the case requires an onsite field investigation, and if I am close enough to the location for that to happen, I will do that. Or if I'm too far away, but I think something valid is going on. I know other researchers throughout the United States who I can reach out to to act as a proxy for me for an on site visit. I found that most of what I deal with, though, does not require an on site visit. An on site visit. I have to ask myself, what's it going to accomplish if somebody is experiencing hearing strange noises or something, they've seen something a few times? I ask them, how often does this happen? Oh, it happens once every couple of months, once or twice a year. Or the last time it happened was two years ago. Is me being on site going to help me accomplish anything, because the goal of an onsite investigation, in addition to documenting and recording, is to try to experience something yourself as an investigator and try to record some sort of documentation. If it's a very sporadic or rare phenomena, which most of these cases turn out to be, I can accomplish what I need to accomplish remotely through email exchanges, Facebook exchanges, telephone calls. And a large part of that is to help them understand what might be happening, what they think is happening, and to explore potential possibilities, to explore alternative, non paranormal possibilities, and to explore the paranormal possibilities if I think that might be going on. And a large part of what I do at all stages, whether it's the initial contact, the initial interviews, or possibly an ongoing field investigation, is to try to address and mitigate any concern or fear the experiencer is having. Folks are experiencing strange things that they cannot understand, cannot explain, and it causes a natural fear reaction. We all, I think, at a core level, have an innate fear of the unknown. And if folks, their entire previous exposure to these kinds of things is reading horror novels and watching movies, they may very well be afraid that a gateway to hell is going to open up in their basement and they're going to be drugged away. So a large part of what I do is informal counseling to say, hey, people have been experiencing these things since the beginning of recorded history. They've been looked at in a structured scientific investigative process since the 18 hundreds. And no, we've never encountered anybody being killed by this kind of stuff or seriously hurt. No, gateways to hell do not open up in people's basements, the Amityville horror notwithstanding, and just to reduce the fear process. And I also get them, whether I can get out there in person or not, I involve them as being a junior investigator. I have them create a journal. They record things that happen. And if they have a tape recorder or a video recorder, and they say they're hearing sounds or seeing things, I try to get them to record those things they're saying. That accomplishes two things. One, it helps record possibly, and hopefully documentary evidence, which helps me and the field come to maybe a better understanding of this phenomena. Also, it turns the experiencer from being an experiencer and dealing with fear and uncertainty to putting them into an investigative mindset. Hey, they're not just a person this is happening to. They're also trying to explain it, helping me. That changes their mindset a bit, to focus on the investigation and the recording part, which if they're preoccupied with being afraid, this helps mitigate that a bit. And in some cases, we found that once the person begins trying to document and look into it from an investigative standpoint, that causes the phenomena to modify a bit, calm down, or even end. And in a Poltergeist case, where a person very often could be very afraid of the poltergeist case, making them a junior investigator, when they say they want this activity to stop, making them a co investigator, in many cases helps facilitate that. A change in their mindset, a change in their thought process, seems to disrupt the underlying poltergeist activity and might actually be a cure in some situations.

Michelle: I think you touched on some really valid and important points there about these various different factors that you have to be very aware of, which is environmental factors, the human factor. These are things that can very much play into the activity that's being observed and seen and unknowingly could be interpreted as being something else. And I think, like you said, when someone is in a heightened state of emotion, when they're feeling afraid, they're in this hypersensitive mode, aren't they? Where they are hearing things that ordinarily they might not hear. They might be seeing something in the corner of their eye that ordinarily they wouldn't notice. But when you are hyper vigilant, you notice and you hear everything. And getting out of that mindset means that you are more reflective. And I think you are not responding from a point of view of automatically looking for something and interpreting it as being something negative and something paranormal. And likewise, you're not looking for things in the environment that could be naturally occurring. That might be part of the problem, that is generating some of the phenomena that you're experiencing. So I think you have to be so mindful of all of these different factors and understanding what's happening. And that takes real thorough questioning, looking at the location in the house, talking to the people on site, and like you said, getting that involvement to really, truly understand what is happening, to be able to then proceed accordingly.

Randy Liebeck: Absolutely 90% of this is questioning and answering, helping guide the experiencer through what they've experienced in how they are going to interpret and process that and documentation. Even if a case is not really amenable to a field investigation, we still record what the person is experiencing. Unless it's obvious from the get go that they're making something up, or that it's a psychological symptom rather than a real objective experience. But we record the experience, we add it to a different database. Like for a couple of the organizations I represent, primarily what we do is document and add the experiences to the body of literature on these cases. Which has been built up for hundreds of years. To help us in general. Get a handle on what these phenomena are, what common experiences are. And to allow future investigators to have reference material to go back on. Say, hey, this case I'm working is not the first time this has happened. There are these other cases where people have reported the same things. So that's a huge part of what we do as researchers. It's not all being in a haunted house basement in the dark at 03:00 in the morning.

Michelle: I think you've briefly touched on something that I think is also really important through this. Which is the different types of experiences that people can have. And obviously, building up that body of evidence. As to what that looks like, how it might present. And to continue adding to that Picture, really. And I suppose a logical question to ask of that. Is. What are the differences between. I don't want to say a regular haunting. But a typical haunting. As opposed to a poltergeist haunting. Which is a little bit more unique, a little bit rarer, and different. What would you say are the differences between those two?

Randy Liebeck: Well, it's actually between those three. With hauntings, there are two basic types. Now, a haunting is location centered. And people have experiences on a repeating scale. It's not just a one off encounter with seeing something or hearing or feeling something. But it's repeating experiences. Within that category of a haunting, there are two. What we think are pretty separate types. The first and probably the most common. Is a place memory. Or it's also called a residual haunting. That's where what's being experienced. Is not indicative. Of any kind of intelligence or consciousness or awareness. People will see an image of a lady dressed in white. Walking down the corridor. Possibly disappearing through a wall. And that's all this apparition does. And it might happen at the same spot. The actions, the movement. Where the apparition is seen moving, never changes. If the witness jumps up and waves her arms. And says, hey, I'm here, the apparition, the image will not react. It shows no indication of awareness that the witness is there. What it seems to be on the surface. Is some sort of recording of past events. Some living person in the past somehow was recorded in the environment. The structure of the building. Or perhaps the structure of reality itself. Sometimes visual, sometimes auditory. Sometimes there are other senses encoded in this recording. Where people will. The witness will feel sensations like fear, sadness. But again, any attempt to communicate or interact with what is being experienced fails. Does not appear to be a ghost, does not appear to be a dead person's consciousness or ghost hanging around. The other type of haunting. Is what we call an apparitional haunting. Or A survival of human consciousness haunting. That's where similar things are seen and experienced. But there seems to be some interaction. Whatever the phenomena is. Has some degree of awareness of the people in the house. Or the other building or location. It could be in a field somewhere. But there seems to be intelligent attempts to communicate. React to the person in the apparitional or survival haunting. The person may see the same lady in white apparition. And approach that lady in white. And the lady in white will seem to notice that. React. Maybe even turn. Look at the witness. And then step away or move away. Sometimes communication attempts. So you have two types of haunting. Living and dead. Apparently. One just an environmental recording of some sort. And that is purely conjecture. There's not even a hypothesis surrounding that. To explain how that recording happens. We know of no mechanism by which that can happen. It's just observation. Seems to indicate that, hey, it does happen. The surviving consciousness. One is quite simply that you or I die tomorrow. But some part of us. Our consciousness. That which makes us us. Lingers behind somehow for a while. Apparently is experienced with a Poltergeist situation. The phenomena experienced are a bit different. Usually people do not see apparitions. They do not see the lady in white walking down the corridor. There are exceptions. There have been some apparently well documented. Legitimate poltergeist cases. Where that has occurred. But generally, no poltergeist phenomena. We regard as physical manipulation of the environment. Usually a haunting. Whether it's a recording. Which obviously cannot manipulate the environment. A recording of past events. Is not going to be able to open your refrigerator door. Or change the channels on your TV set. Or lift up an ashtray and make it float across the room. Generally, for the most part, we don't think a ghost. The surviving consciousness of a dead person. Can do that either, in most cases. Poltergeist cases, though, has a lot of that kind of stuff going on. Movement of objects. Dishes might explode. Refrigerator doors open and close. Sometimes gross manipulation of matter. Sometimes you'll have spontaneous fires break out. Puddles of water appear. Sometimes aports and deports. Where objects will appear out of nowhere. Sometimes dropping from the middle of the room from thin air. Other objects might disappear or relocate. People walk into their house with their car keys in their hand. Put their keys in their pocket. Then two minutes later. Reach into their pocket. And the keys are not there. We've all had that happen to us. In some cases, relatively rare, but it happens. People look all around the house. Thinking, where did those keys fall out? And they can't find them. Then an hour, 2 hours later. They open up their freezer door. To get out some ice cream. And lo and behold, their keys are there. So gross manipulation of matter. Sometimes very loud noises. Noises that might sound like your house or apartment is being destroyed around you. But nothing is actually physically occurring. Just the sounds. So when we have those type of. In your face. Wham bam. Objects might even be seen to be floating around or levitating in the house. We tend to separate that into a poltergeist category. As opposed to a person. A dead person's ghost category. And certainly separated from a recording. The other thing we noticed is that hauntings. Both types. Are place centered. They occur at one location. Either where past events were recorded. Or where a ghost is hanging around. For whatever reason. If a person leaves that location, leaves that environment. The phenomena tends not to move along with them. It is place centered. Poltergeist cases. We've noticed that the phenomena is definitely person centered. There may be some location elements tied into there. But primarily person centered. The activity happens around a specific person or persons. In most cases, the phenomena will not occur. Unless that person or persons are present. And if the person leaves the house. Sometimes the phenomena will go with them. If they move to a new house, new location. The phenomena very often will initially move along with them. Again, things that indicate to us. Hey, there's a connection here. Between the experiencer. And the phenomena. That usually we don't find in haunting cases. So those are the primary lines of demarcation. Between poltergeist and hauntings.

Michelle: If you go in to investigate a case. And you're trying to determine what could be occurring during the activity. What might be accounting for what's happening. Does your approach change? Does it diverge. Depending on the type of phenomena. That you're seeing. Or being reported to you? Does how you handle the case change. Based on whether you think it is a poltergeist haunting. Or if it is a residual haunting. Or an intellectual haunting per se?

Randy Liebeck: Yes. The method of investigation does change. If it's a place memory, a residual haunting, a recording. Generally, there's not much that can be done to document the case. I am not aware of any case in the history of investigations. And the literature of the field. Where anybody has been able to record sounds or visual manifestations. In a place memory haunting. You might be able to show up in person. And see and hear those things. That are occurring very rare. Sometimes it does occur. But we do not think there's any physical light being reflected into your retinas. Or there are no actual sound waves hitting eardrums. The experience, we think, is psychic. It's through ESP. You are psychically perceiving these recorded events in the environment. And we know of no way to record or document that. So if I was going to show up at a place memory residual haunting case, I'm not going to bring a lot of equipment. I'm not going to worry about trying to record the sounds. Or get video of the lady in white. Because history has shown us that is just not going to happen. So I will mainly focus on interviewing the people, see what those experiences are. And if I'm close enough, Stop by. If they say, this happens on Saturday nights at 10:00 p.m. In this corridor. Yeah, I'd like to go there and see if I can experience it. Probably won't experience it. Because my neurology, my psychology. Is wired differently than the experiencer is. They may be able to tune to a certain channel. That I'm not able to tune to, but not going to know unless you try it. So I've tried that a few times without results. If it's a ghost situation, we think a dead person is hanging around. Most of the phenomena. In that case, too, we also think is ESP. It's through psychic perception. If you hear a ghost talking to you and saying, hey, Randy, how you doing? Odds are if I had a tape recorder running, it's not going to pick that up. Even though I heard it, I heard it internally, the audio processing center of my brain received that directly. The sound waves. And vibrational sound waves did not go through my ear, through my ear canal, to the eardrum and vibrate. It's a psychic process. So odds are I'm not going to be able to record that. Same with a visual. If I see a ghost, and even if the ghost interacts with me, waves at me, waves back at me when I wave at it, telling me, hey, something's there. With awareness and intelligence, I'm probably not going to be able to. I'm almost certain I'm not going to be able to get a photograph or a video clip of that. And we know that. We know it's a psychic perception. Because there are so many cases where you'll have two, three, four people at a location. Two or three of them will say, hey, do you see that lady in white in the corner walking away from us? And they'll see it and describe the same thing. The fourth or fifth person in the room will look at the exact same spot and go, dude, what are you talking about? I don't see anything. There's nothing there. If there was something there reflecting light, it would have to be seen by everybody looking at it. The fact that some see it, some don't. Some perceive these things, some don't. That shows us it is a psychic visualizatioN, a psychic hearing. And you're not going to be able to capture that on a photo or video. Poltergeist case, a bit different. If somebody is reporting, experiencing physical manipulation of the environment. Couple of things. One, Poltergeist cases last for a relatively short period of time. Hauntings. Both types of hauntings can go on for a long time. Years, decades, even longer. In some cases, though, there does seem to be an expiration date for those kind of things. Poltergeist cases usually happen. They happen quickly. And the duration is a week, a couple of weeks, couple of months. Usually not longer than a couple of months before the phenomena dies out. And there may be reasons why it dies out. But there's a time criticality if somebody wants to get out there and do a field investigation. Now, I need to point out that there are outliers to this weeks to month duration idea. There are a few outlier cases, again, apparently well documented and authentic, that have gone on for a long time. For a year, a couple of years, couple of very rare cases, which have gone on more than a couple of years, but usually weeks, month, two months. And so by the time an investigator becomes aware of a case, you're running out of time. And I think many, many cases never get investigated by a credible researcher because they're not aware of it. In fact, we get most reports of poltergeist cases after they're over. Somebody will say, hey, this happened. This went on. This went on, but it hasn't happened for the past two weeks or a month. That means it's over. So if I get a report of a poltergeist case that I think is legitimate and there's a chance of me being able to record something or witness something moving, I want to try to get out there and bring as much documentary devices as I can, video, audio, photo, infrared, thermal imaging. Try to monitor any changes in the environment, electromagnetic, electrostatic fields, to see if whatever is happening objectively impacts or changes the environment. Which provides documentary evidence. That's not just all in somebody's head, or even the investigator's head. There's something actually interacting with the world around us. So yeah, I want to respond to that differently than a haunting.

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Michelle: A whole lot more. And now let's head back to the.

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Michelle: And there are lots of different theories, aren't there, as to why Poltergeist cases happen? Do you want to just talk us through some of the more prevalent responses and thoughts as to theories as to why it occurs?

Randy Liebeck: Well, hypotheses. So we don't have any theories for any of this hypotheses or just educated guesses based on hundreds of years of observation. We do not know why these things happen. Poltergeist cases we notice that there is a connection, as I mentioned, between the experiencer or the experiencers. Very often there is one person or a couple of people who this phenomena always occurs around, and the connection is definite. So we want to focus on that person or persons, because there's a term called poltergeist. There are two terms, Poltergeist focus. That's a person or persons. The activity happens around. They have to be together or be at a place. Does not mean they're causing it in any way. It just means they're the focus. They're who this stuff circles around. The other concept is a poltergeist agent. That's a person that we suspect might be somehow causing or contributing to the phenomena. And very often the agent will also be the focus. But they're two separate things. Sometimes we have a focus, but they do not fit the profile of an agent with the agent idea, the person who is somehow creating or moderating the phenomena. We've noticed some trends, and the first person to actually come up with this idea was Dr. Nandor Fodor. Back in the 1930s, William Roll from Georgia in the US further developed that and came up with a term we call recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. We think that the agent is subconsciously generating and exteriorizing pent up emotions. Anger, fear and rage. Or just internal stress. And they're venting that into the external environment. Don't ask me how they're doing that. We have no model for that. But observationally, that seems to be what's happening. We've identified certain traits with poltergeist agents. Very often, not always, but often enough that we know, hey, there's something going on here. The person will. Evidence underlying emotional stress trauma could be an adolescent going through the stress of being an adolescent. Bad home situation with teenage suspected poltergeist agents. Very often we'll see that they are adopted or they come from a broken home, broken family. A lot of stress is going on. Parents might be going through a divorce situation. Sometimes they are the subject of abuse, both physical and in some cases, sexual. So we've seen that in enough cases that we go, hey, there's a common trait in some cases, again, not universal, but enough cases where we say, hey, there's something going on here. These suspected agents will demonstrate a certain neurological pathology. They will be evidencing temporal lobe seizure activity, which in most people who experience that, epileptic. And they'll have epileptic seizures and deal with that. I think you're talking maybe 2020. 5% of identified poltergeist agents. We've noticed similar neuropileptical signatures going on. Apparently micro seizures or pseudoepileptic seizures occurring inside the brain, inside the temporal lobe area. But they're not causing physical seizures. The activity is not doing to the body what it normally does. But we think that activity is somehow being vented out, exteriorized into the environment where it moves things, knocks things over, causes dishes to explode. Again, we have no clue what the mechanism is. And I think anybody who says they do, they're talking out of a different orifice. But the observations are there, something is going on. There are tropes. People think that, hey, the poltergeist agent is always an adolescent girl. That is not the case. The breakdown is almost equal between male and female. But the adolescent connection is there. Many, many poltergeist focuses folk eye and agents are adolescents. But that's not a universal. There are adults who are the focus and suspected agent. I've worked cases with adults who I think were behind it. There are cases where there are senior citizens who are the apparent poltergeist agent. But to a large degree, most of them are adolescent. We found that when the underlying stress and trauma these people are experiencing in their lives, when they go to counseling, when these are identified and dealt with by a professional, a therapist, or a counselor, almost universally the phenomena very shortly stops. And that tells us, why does it stop? If we're addressing the underlying psychological stress conditions that's going to moderate and mitigate the venting process. And with the venting process, a good way to think about that is we all get angry. We all have stress at work, with our family members, with our loved ones. And sometimes we get angry. We want to yell, we want to wait till our spouse leaves the room, then we want to punch the door. Sometimes people get really angry and they'll throw a dish and smash it. ThaT vents, that vents the internal build up of rage and emotion. And while being violent and punching a hole in your wall is not good, we never recommend that. That does help you vent that stress and get over it. The folks we think are poltergeist agents do not vent in those normal ways. They will not get into a yelling match. They won't slam the door. They won't throw a dish. But guess what? They're bottling that in, and the door slams, the dish explodes, the wall gets pounded on. So it seems they're still venting that stress, but not physically themselves. They're sending out some sort of psychic projection into the environment, inventing the stress that way. Again, we have no mechanism to explain that. It's just based on hundreds of years of observation.

Michelle: I think it's an area that, again, it's something I've talked about on a previous podcast with a different guest. But this aspect of looking at the brain and seeing how we perceive things and how we ourselves could be playing a part in what's happening. I think it's such a big topic and a big question in itself, because there are so many questions about how, if you are neurodivergent, for example, if that plays into your ability to pick up on things, to tune into things differently to someone else, like you mentioned, someone possibly with epileptic seizures, however far mild on that spectrum, or serious that is, whether that can play into something, whether someone who has a hearing loss, has a sight loss, can that play a part in how tuned in they are into something? There are so many questions around the brain and someone's abilities or disabilities. If this has an impact, if that plays a part in what happens, I think it's an interesting angle that I really do think warrants further study and further looking at to be honest.

Randy Liebeck: Yes, we do not know the answers. We do see certain trends and certain indicators which I've been discussing. But the most important thing of seeing these trends and making these observations is that folks like you and I are asking the right questions. Now we're asking, hey, we've observed that there are certain neuropathological traits to people who are prone to be Poltergeist agents. Does this also tie in? Are they more prone to see apparitions or to pick up and experience a place memory recording than the average person is? Does being deaf, as you mentioned, does that increase the ability to be sensitive? We know being deaf or being sightless, you compensate for that with your other senses, in many cases becoming hyper attuned. Does your psychic awareness, ability to perceive things outside the normal spectrum, does that get enhanced also? Quite possibly that might be a survival mechanism. Maybe you can't see a hazard in front of you, but you pick up your spidey senses, start tingling, and you go, hey, maybe I should not take another step in this direction. And it turns out that, yeah, if they take another step in that direction, they will have fallen into an open manhole, in a sewer cover, in the street. And there are many, many anecdotal reports of things like that in the literature. The problem is we don't have enough of a database to extrapolate strong trends or indicators for this. Most cases, especially poltergeist cases, it's hard to develop a model or a strong phenomenology. Not phenomenology. We have that. But let's say for people with pseudoepileptic seizure activity, we have noticed a few people who have that trait, and poltergeist activity happens around them. Dr. William Roll, who is probably the world's top poltergeist researcher, latched onto that and thought, yep, there's something really strong here going on. There is a definite connection. The problem is we have to look at the rarity of how many of these cases actually get investigated by a credible researcher who knows what to look for and knows what questions to ask first. Most poltergeist cases do not get reported. People experience strange things in their house. Stuff goes on. I think most of those cases, especially, they only last a few days, a week, a couple of weeks. Folks are frightened. Folks are not. Their first thought is not to pick up a phone and call up a parapsychologist or call up a credible field investigator. They're going to deal with it. The activity stops eventually, and that's all they care about. Hey, leave well enough alone. In the times where it is reported to a credible researcher, in most of those cases, it's either over with or coming to end, and the investigator cannot get out there in time. And then if the case gets to me, do I have enough time? Will the phenomena last? Do I have enough time to get them referred to a proper health professional and urologist, some cases a psychologist, to help explore and address their underlying stress? And that's important, not just explore. For ethical researchers in the field, yes, we want to determine if this phenomena is real. We want to document and record. We want to test our brainstorm and then test different ideas and concepts, maybe come up with hypothes. But we can't ever forget that people are frightened. Eight times out of ten when somebody contacts me and I ask, okay, what do you want me to do? They're not saying, oh, I want you to come here, investigate. I want you to develop more information for the development of the field of parapsychology. No, they say, I want you to come here and make this stop. There's no way we can guarantee we can make anything stop. The phenomena usually stops on its own anyway. But as I mentioned, there are certain things put the experiencer into the role of an investigator. Have them create a journal, write stuff down, that in many cases helps mitigate and stop the phenomena. Also, if we think they're undergoing certain stressors and emotional issues, getting them counseling and therapy to address the underlying causes of that stress very often stops the phenomena. But we have to be concerned with the mental health and the psychological well being of the experiencer. If we go to a case and we know, hey, this is fascinating, but the family is scared, and there's a good chance we can cause this to stop by hooking them up with a therapist or making them keep a journal, it's going to stop the phenomena. There goes my case, except for recording it for the literature, whether it goes my chance, probably, to experience or record something in the environment. But I am not a therapist. I am not a counselor, but I'm a human being. And I have to regard their mental health and awareness and not just look at it as, oh, here I can experience something, here I can make this activity continue and keep recurring so I can keep recording it. No, if the person's frightened, we need to help them, try to help them stop the phenomena or try to stop them from being frightened, at least.

Michelle: Brandy, I'm so glad you said that.

Michelle: Because I think that ethical responsibility is so often overlooked, and it is so important, it is so crucial to remember that whoever is experiencing the phenomena could be feeling real, genuine terror and that shouldn't be exploited. And sadly, I think some people do get terribly exploited. And I think as often as possible we need to be having that conversation about being mindful of our own actions in this process, that we are not there to provoke, we're not there to incite more terror, we are there to help in that capacity. And yeah, I think, honestly, I'm so grateful that you said that because I do think it is a very fundamental part of what the paranormal feels should be about, that people should be very mindful of and aware of, and it just does not get discussed enough. That ethical, moral obligation that I think we all have.

Randy Liebeck: I agree. Ethics in parapsychology and in paranormal field investigations has been greatly overlooked and I think is completely overlooked by your pop culture TV show educated weekend hobbyists. Now, obviously not everybody is going to have expertise in these areas. I'm certainly not a counselor or therapist, but I know enough to recommend. Hey, you seem to undergoing some stress. These things you're experiencing at home with your family situation are going to make anyone upset, stress anyone out. And my goodness, now you're experiencing these haunting or poltergeist phenomena on top of that. Obviously you can't sleep at night now. It's affecting your home life, it's affecting your job. Not saying you're mentally ill, not saying you're crazy. Absolutely not. But just like anybody else who's going through stress, maybe you should talk to somebody, a counselor, a therapist, a clergyman at your church, whoever you can talk to and try to address some of the stress that you're dealing with that helps them out. And it very often helps to mitigate the paranormal phenomena they are either experiencing or creating.

Michelle: And just to kind of tie things together, I mean, you've obviously had such a, gosh, you must have seen practically everything at some point or other, or had a conversation about something at some point or other, experienced most things over the course of examining and looking at and researching and investigating all of the different cases that have come your way. Has there been a particular case that you've considered really noteworthy or fascinating that has just been one that you've not been able to forget? Really.

Randy Liebeck: The one historical case that has always fascinated me and I think has provided us some of the most solid documentary evidence for a poltergeist case was a 1974 case in Culver City, California, right outside Los Angeles. Woman named Doris Byther was undergoing romantic issues and stress, was abused, maybe had some drug and alcohol problems. The researchers found a lot of psychosocial, psychosexual stress factors going on with her. She had reached out to investigators, the UCLA University of California, Los Angeles Parapsychology Department, or lab, in 73, 74. Barry Taff and Carrie Gaynor, who are both two world renowned parapsychologists today. At the time, they were graduate students at the UCLA lab. They caught the case during the course of their investigation of Doris Byther. And Doris had some strong emotional psychological issues. Doris's initial report is that she was being physically raped and beaten by invisible entities. Nobody ever saw that happen, so we only know what she said happened. I've discussed the case personally with Carrie Gaynor, and I've read Barry Taft's writings about it. The UCLA lab sent out 15 to 20 investigators, all students and graduate students from the university, and Dr. Thelma Moss, who was a parapsychologist who ran the parapsychology lab. They were able to witness physical activity occur around Doris Byther. They witnessed objects moving. They witnessed sounds. They experienced foul, nauseating odors that would appear from out of the blue, then immediately disappear, which is evidence of anomalous activity. Normal odors coming gradually, then fade away gradually. These odors would come, then go. No residue. They experienced frigid cold spots that would come and go around Doris Pyther. Objects would move, shake. Then they observed light manifestations. They observed glowing balls of green light that would come zooming around the room and start circling around Doris while she was sitting in a chair around the bed. Things that are reported in many cases, but this was observed by 15 to 20 trained researchers and parapsychologists and actually photographed the photographs. They would see dozens of green balls of light zooming around the room, doing circles, focusing on Doris. They took hundreds and hundreds of photographs and were trying to run film cameras. Out of the hundreds of photographs that were taken, they captured two to three shots of the balls of light streaking around the room and circling around Doris. Again, documentary evidence, and witnessed by dozens of credible university based researchers. I am not aware of any other case in the history of our field that had so many witnesses, especially so many trained witnesses affiliated with the parapsychology unit. And again, the photographic evidence. And you can Google Doris Pyther Poltergeist case, and you can see the photos and see some of the stuff. But that has always intrigued me. If I'm ever. I've never seen anything move across the room. I've never seen a ball of light floating through the room. Does this stuff really happen, or am I just diluting myself with confirmation bias and wishful thinking. Whenever those thoughts cross my mind, I refer back to the Doris Byther case, which was made into a movie in the 1980s called the Entity, starring Barbara Hershey. I look back on that byther case. That to me is undeniable, absolute documentary evidence in that case, that this phenomena does occur, and if you're at the right place at the right time, an investigator can experience it. So to me, that case just stands out in the literature and history of the field, and I've had the pleasure of discussing the case with a couple of the investigators.

Michelle: I hope people following listening to this podcast go away and do precisely that. I hope they go and Google that case because it is an interesting one. And yeah, it's rare because, like you mentioned, just the sheer number of people who witnessed, who were there and documented. It is like you said, I've not seen anything like that in any case I've ever looked at or researched. And yeah, it's definitely the one. I agree with you that stands out for that reason. So just to finish, do you want to just, I'm just wondering where you think the world of parapsychology goes next. What do you think are the next steps? What do you think is needed in terms of research or observation, or just general thoughts about the community in general? What would you like to see happen next, or what you think is needed next?

Randy Liebeck: Well, I'm going to separate the world of parapsychology from the world of pop culture. Amateur weekend ghost hunting. The researchers involved in parapsychology, and I am not a parapsychologist. I do not have a PhD next to my name. I do not have those credentials. I am a parapsychological field investigator, meaning I go out and I do work very often alongside parapsychologists or at the request of a parapsychologist. But I am active in the field of parapsychology. Most ghost hunters, quote unquote, do not have that connection with the field of parapsychology. Most of them would not be able to describe to you what term parapsychology means. So there are two separate areas. One is pop culture, entertainment, and going out into a graveyard at night to have some thrills. The other is a scientific discipline, an area of serious study. What I am hoping does happen is that those two worlds can get closer if people who are members of a ghost hunting group really want to do some useful work and help us build up the body of knowledge that we're developing and help us determine what the phenomenology of certain of these cases are and what to look for if they stop watching ghost hunters on TV and check in on the Web with the Ryan Research center and with the Society for Psychical Research, with the association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomena ASAP. Look at some of the resources, educational resources, look at some of the materials that are put out by ASAP and the SPR on how to conduct a field investigation following parapsychological protocols, how to record and document evidence, how to interview a witness and develop a structured investigative technique, actually collect information, provide it to these organizations or other researchers, become a citizen scientist helping to support the overall field. I would love to see more and more amateur ghost hunting groups do this, and some are in the UK. There are numerous local ghost hunting enthusiast groups which are affiliated with the ASAP, the Association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomena, and they conduct the field investigations to a set standard and follow protocols and mandated ethical guidance. I think that is a great approach. We do not have anything like that in the US, unfortunately. But even in the US, there are some initiatives that some scientists, some parapsychologists are starting to help, or to start trying to bring some of these amateur enthusiasts into a more structured environment, not take over their work. They're still independent amateur field investigators, but get them involved in helping us out, because parapsychology, very small field there are a very small number of credentialed parapsychologists with the master's degree or the PhD required to call yourself a parapsychologist. A small number of those parapsychologists, only a very small number of those are actually involved in doing field investigations. Most work in a laboratory doing ESP and psychokinesis experiments. And only a few of those actually are interested in ghosts, hauntings and poltergeist. The ones who are interested, very few of them are out in the field doing field work. So there are not enough parapsychologists and scientists out there to do the investigations and field work that are required. If it's going to be done, it has to be done by amateurs. And I include myself in that amateur category. I am not a scientist. So folks like me and folks like those who belong to these ghost hunting groups, if they can start connecting with the parapsychologists and the institutions which have studied this field and have protocols and can provide investigative guidance, having all these extra eyes and ears and documentary recorders out in the field at all know haunted locations, and all these reports of spooky areas and poltergeist locations, the folks are out there. There are thousands and thousands of amateur ghost hunting groups in the US alone. I suppose in the UK you have a similar number. The manpower is out there. If they can be guided, held by the hand a little bit, and become a useful asset to the field as a whole, I think that's a great thing. And I have seen some very encouraging moves made in that direction. So I'm a bit optimistic.

Michelle: No, but I agree with you. I think I see similar things. I'm hopeful of more things like that. I think if we get more of that, then, gosh, the sky's the limit. I think it would be so much more impactful and yeah, I wonder what would come of that, if we could move closer and closer to what you just described. I think it would be great.

Randy Liebeck: Yeah, the people are there. So many people have an interest in this field. So if we can channel that interest into something productive and something which can provide evidential and documentary support for the field of parapsychologypsychical research, it can only be an asset.

Michelle: And this is why I think conversations like this are so productive, because all too often, it's not because people are not wanting to do this. They just don't know where to start, or they don't necessarily know about the institutions or how they can help. And sometimes it just takes listening to a conversation to think, well, actually, I can go and look to see what's on that website, or I can go in and see what ASAP are doing, or sign up for something and just learn more. Just ask questions. And like I said, I think this is why I have these conversations with people, because I think the more we can ask questions of ourselves, the more we think about this, the better the field becomes, really. And so, you know, I'm just so appreciative that you could come and chat with me tonight and, yeah, be part of that process.

Randy Liebeck: Really, Michelle, my pleasure. The ability to discuss these issues and brainstorm the problems, possible solutions. There's no bad aspect to that discussion. Communication is the way this field works.

Michelle: And I will make sure to put onto the website and the podcast description notes, all of your details so that people can come and find you on your social media platforms, but also your website. And yeah, thank you so much. Like I said, thank you so much for being part of the discussion.

Randy Liebeck: Thank you.

Michelle: And I will say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody.