Exploring The Mysteries Of Near Death And Beyond With Tony Hayes

0:17

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history.

0:33

Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us each episode.

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We'll unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

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But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

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Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

1:47

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:06

Step into the realm of the unknown as we delve into the mysteries of consciousness and survival after death.

Today we will be exploring the fascinating world of psychical research where age-old questions about the nature of existence find new light.

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From out of body experiences to near death encounters, from deathbed visions to past life memories, we're peeling back the layers of the supernatural.

Joining us on this journey is none other than Tony Hayes, a seasoned investigator with over 3 decades of experience in a field of paranormal investigation and research.

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Tony's expertise spans the breadth of psychical phenomena, and he's here to share his insights research findings.

And real life.

Cases that will leave you spellbound.

Tony is no stranger to the mysterious and the unexplained.

As a member of the Society for Psychical Research and the Association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomena, he is dedicated to trying to unravel the secrets of the unseen.

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Currently, Tony serves as the Case Manager and lead Investigator for Paranormal Investigation UK where he heads a dedicated team of researchers.

But that's not all.

Tony is currently knee deep in a ground breaking investigation with the SBR delving into a live poltergeist case.

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So buckle up and prepare to explore the realms of the unknown with us.

From the chilling to the extraordinary, from the inexplicable to the awe inspiring, this episode promises to push the boundaries of what we understand about consciousness and the afterlife.

3:55

Hi, Tony.

Thank you so much for joining me again on another podcast.

Good afternoon, Michelle, and thanks for inviting me back.

So last time we were chatting, we were talking about Evps Audio phenomena, which was a phenomenal discussion, discussion.

You just provided so many gems.

4:12

It was such an incredible discussion to have.

I know often at the back of that you have said to me personally that if people have examples of Evps that they would like to send you to analyse for you to be able to then pass them back that you are open to doing that as well as any stories etcetera that come up from our discussion today.

4:32

Yeah, absolutely.

With the Electronic Voice Phenomena, if they've got something which is in of interest, by all means get that all to us.

You know, I think you've got links on your on the podcast or on the website and if possible if you can send them via a cloud linking, yeah, we can do that.

4:54

I can make sure that again, all those that information is in the notes, etcetera, so that people can easily find you to be able to do that.

I think it's a great opportunity if someone's got something to share for you to look over.

It'd be brilliant for them not to take you up on that.

Yeah, they will get a visual report back.

5:14

They won't just get an e-mail saying, yeah, we agree with you.

We heard Joe Blog said hello.

It will be the full analysis which is recorded and sent to them.

So they've got there for prosperity as well as reviewing it for themselves.

5:29

The process that we take with it and people can learn to do that themselves and as well.

But we're very, very happy to analyse any audio or anything aspects of what we're going to talk about today.

Yeah.

And we've got a really fascinating discussion coming coming up again today.

5:45

It's something a bit different, but something you did touch upon briefly in the last podcast when you were mentioning this 3070 ratio that kind of comes across various aspects, which has just been sat in the back of my mind.

And again, maybe something we'll touch on in today's podcast, but we're going to be thinking about out of body experiences, deathbed visions, past lives, near death experiences, all of those kinds of things.

6:13

So starting with out of body experiences, do you want to just explain what it is so that maybe someone who isn't familiar with that terminology knows what it means and what it's referencing?

Yeah, the the actual outer body of experience is often confused with the near death experience and vice versa.

6:30

But there's fundamentally 2 very different phenomenas that occur or events the outer body experience.

There's really only one component to this.

They're either within the body, as our normal physical body is, or that the city appears to be that the consciousness as in a way moved out of the body.

6:52

So you either in the body, out of the body, then you're back again and it's generally you are able to view your surroundings and it you seem appears to be limited on distance, so you're not going to do an out of body experience 50 miles away.

7:11

This is not nothing to do with astral travel, where it's a completely different entity.

This is where rational travel is a deliberate attempt as an outer body.

These are accidental events where for some unknown reason the consciousness appears to be detached away from the physical body for a period of time and then simply re enters and without question the individual doesn't have control of that experience.

7:41

It seems to be just spontaneously occurs and it doesn't involve any form of critical physical well-being such as the body's beginning to shut down, major organ failure where the body be appears to be looking to die.

7:59

This is more generally where if there is a connection, it's connections to stress or anxiety or fear, suddenly they become detached from the body and then they return to the body shortly later.

But the the the body itself is or the individual should say is not in any danger, if that makes sense.

8:20

When they are in danger, such as the body is suffering major heart and failure, that would be a near death experience.

Hopefully I've explained that as well as I could do, and I think the best way is to use an example because the four topics we're going to talk about today, these are the very few topics where generally when we're dealing with it's paranoid investigators, we're dealing where the spiritual realm is, is coming to our physical realm.

8:54

And with the four topics today, this is the opportunity for us from the physical plane to break into the spiritual realm almost in many ways becoming almost like a no nosy neighbour.

We're actually looking into something which normally we wouldn't be allowed to see if that makes sense.

9:15

Michelle I think that's a really perfect easy way of explaining it.

I think it's it's a way of kind of putting under an over overarching umbrella if you like, of well this is this is how these are grouped and this is the significance of these four areas in relation to you know paranormal investigating or parapsychology topics.

9:39

Yeah because it doesn't matter what the the topic is is far up.

It's paranormal parapsychology, whatever.

Yeah.

It's all about what happens here, but it comes back to one label and something we spoke about last time is the afterlife, the the possibility of survival of the consciousness after physical death.

9:58

With these photographs we've got, well, certainly with three of them there's an opportunity to go beyond the veil and actually have a look in to this place what it is maybe that we will enter at some point in our lives.

10:15

If your belief mechanism does say, yeah, there is such a thing as an afterlife, because if it wasn't one, we wouldn't do what we do.

And some of the one of the great ones that we have is when the sceptical or the debunkers of the paranormal world look into this, they will always pick on cases which can be easily dissected.

10:41

The ones the examples I've got for you today, they're more problematic.

It's something that the debunkers, the sceptics prefer to keep away from because the information, one, it can be evidenced up and two, it's the individuals as well that that have become the experiencer.

11:00

I think you you'll probably agree with this when people actually have a experience, whatever that experience is, sometimes we're guilty of putting too much emphasis on the individual.

For example, yeah, that must be true because he's a doctor or he's a barrister or he's a judge.

11:20

When really if you've had the if you've become the experience, it doesn't matter who you are, you've still had the experience and it shouldn't be less or more important than somebody that is like a barrister or a doctor or a surgeon.

What are your thoughts on that, Michelle?

11:36

I think it's very valid.

I think people place those judgements consciously and unconsciously about whether something is credible or not.

And we see in historical cases as to whether something has been believed and scrutinised the same way compared to other examples, just simply based on those involved.

11:56

It's it's yeah, I think it's human nature.

Yeah.

If you go to like a crown cord you don't pick and choose the the trial jurors.

It could be anyone from a bus driver to a doctor to a taxi driver.

The the they're all opinions were exactly the same.

12:12

So I always take seriously irrespective of who is this because I'm more interested in the substance of it rather than the actual individual to be honest.

And I think that as we'll find today, so we'll be using some which are more, we will say they are more the the academia side that have had the experience.

12:29

But I'm also to be dealing with you know, normal people and we're all normal people.

So if you're ready to go, well, I'll, I'll make a certain definitely I think this is going to be.

I think it's going to be a really intriguing discussion.

12:45

So please fire away.

I can't wait to hear some of your examples and get into it.

So this, this is a particularly good one.

Again this is referred to he was an American doctor and in the 1990s and was leaving his property he was going for conference.

13:00

So he gets in his car.

He obviously puts his pack, his bags in the car.

Now he remembers nothing from really that point of leaving the house, but for the story to make sense, I'll explain what what he was actually doing.

13:17

He's going to travel some distance away a couple 100 miles to stay overnight for the conference that was taking place the following day.

The first thing he realises is he appears to be floating over an accident scene.

What had actually happened is that as he's on the big freeway in in the United States, there's been a coach on what we would say as a single deck of bus in this country.

13:41

But an American coach had crossed over the freeway, through the ankle barrier and had gone into oncoming traffic.

So you can imagine absolute chaos.

It's happened with multiple vehicle pile up really, and that's exactly what he's doing.

13:59

He's looking down on this scene trying to work out and he said what is what has happened here?

Because he has no memory whatsoever of the actual collision and why he's in the position he's in.

As he looks to his left, the actual coach itself, it's crossed across the freeway.

14:18

It's partly on its side, not completely, because he's just about resting on a car roof.

He realises that underneath this coach is a small child, nine years of age, either unconscious or worse.

14:36

And what's actually happened is at the coaches collided and partly gone on to its side.

The child's fell through the side window unconscious or worse, and it's a floating across his scene trying to take in his surroundings because he just simply doesn't have no eye contact at all.

14:55

What has actually occurred?

Then suddenly he's back in his car.

What he's looking at now is his own vehicle is badly damaged.

He's must have only been within a couple of minutes of the main collision because no, no emergency vehicles have arrived at this point.

15:14

And as he's looking around there were people that obviously stopped to help, came to him, make sure he was OK and he helped him because he's he's the car door was quite badly damaged so they had to really regime and get him out of the car as he's done.

15:29

So as he looks to his left, he sees the coach, he immediately goes over, he looks underneath the coach, there's a child and with some assistance they will pull the child out.

The child survives now.

There's no big story such as Moments later the coach fell on.

15:46

She decided he didn't move, but it might have done.

What he then realised is he'd just been in the car.

He could not have seen the child on the other side of the bus.

He had to have been away from the his vehicle to actually see the child that was underneath it.

16:07

Does that make sense, Michelle?

Yeah, it does.

So this is an example of this out of body experience where most of shock, moment of panic, something suddenly happening and their consciousness is outside of their body.

And in this case his consciousness has been able to see what is transpiring within the code that he cannot see from his vantage point.

16:30

But yet he has this knowledge of this child who's been injured and is trapped whilst he is still physically inside the confinement.

Yeah that's right.

This one became of interest because of that one incident that he could not have seen the child which is 100 yards away behind the bus or but underneath there he didn't.

16:51

It was impossible for him to see that now without that child being there, there is something been put down to some sort of trauma some psychotic episode that he that the reason why.

You know, false memories, whatever.

17:07

And this is a case where we can actually say, well, what has actually happened here the he wasn't in any way injured.

He'd obviously been knocked unconscious.

So there is that one that we can take into account, but it wasn't as if he's in any form of danger.

17:24

But for some reason the body did get attached away from it and then bang gets back again.

So the process of the and they're literally thousands of stories.

Generally you get them in in hospital theatres where the individuals going through a normal operation, they're not in any form of danger and suddenly they were both the actual scene and can describe later what has actually happened with the operation particular what doctors have said.

17:57

Now, another good example of this would be, you're familiar with the investigator Caroline Mcandre.

I am, very much so.

She's been on the podcast before.

I spoke to Caroline at the weekend and we spoke about a story.

18:12

It happened to her when she was giving birth and she said, yeah, go ahead and talk about this story to you.

So I'm not breaking any sort of confidentiality, I can assure you.

And what had actually happened with Caroline?

It was the first born son that she had probably about 20 years ago, Ross.

18:32

And as you're going through the childbirth, her husband Steve was with her at the time and something goes badly wrong where they suddenly realised the baby's in distress, the umbilical cord is caught round its neck and as they're trying to induce a birth, Caroline then stops to stops breathing.

18:53

So there are people trying to work on Caroline and one on the the the boy Ross.

What Caroline then remembers is she's now out of the body stood to the back and to the right of her head.

So he's actually looking down on the scene.

19:09

What's in front of her now?

Where this gets compelling is when later on, when the hospital had to do like an enquiry over both of them survived with no with no permanent damage but any stretch.

So they had an inquiry and they were interested in what why these events did occur because this is Caroline's first born, she seems she may be looking on to go and have future children as anything else that could do differently.

19:37

And what Caroline described when to the doctors, there was one exactly the process of what the doctors have done even though Caroline's unconscious, she said.

I'm looking at this and what was interesting, she said.

19:54

I had no panic, no real feeling of concern.

Also felt was, well, this is a bit type of sad, sad event, very matter of fact.

Again, a common event with experiences of the outer body.

20:11

They don't seem to seem to be detached away from our normal feelings, such as panic, anger, that type of thing.

What Caroline was also able to describe, her husband had gone into a bit of a panic mode himself and had to leave the the room.

20:29

Caroline spotted it.

So when she came conscious later, she was able to say that yeah, the child was they used forceps for the delivery and she was angry that her husband Steve had panicked and left the room.

20:45

He's absolutely baffled.

How did she know this?

Because she was unconscious.

They were trying to work on it because at that point she'd actually stopped breathing.

So here's another one where it's There seems to be this detachment of the conscious of the consciousness away from the physical body looking in.

21:07

Interesting it is.

And it kind of reminds me of something that we actually see in in human behaviour, which is something called cognitive dissonance, which is our brain.

21:24

We as human beings, we kind of create that divide between our behaviour that we don't necessarily like, that doesn't align with who we think we are.

So somehow we separate we create this this divide between what we're actually doing and our own value systems in order to protect.

21:44

We don't want to acknowledge is making us uncomfortable about uncomfortable about something that we're doing.

I suppose a a very good example of this would be war and people having to do terrible things during war.

It doesn't necessarily align with your morals, your morals kind of compass, but you create this safe space around it in order to be able to get on and do it type thing and it kind of has that kind of connection for me with that almost like a detachment to protect yourself from what is happening this, this event that is would be quite shocking, would be quite traumatising, would be quite terrifying.

22:23

But it's almost this separation from the physical and the conscious.

Yeah, I think you're right with that because the jobs that I've done in the past, I've had no option but to become almost like a chattel and hide character.

When I'm with the job, I'm one individual and when I'm not out of the job and away from it, I can just simply switch off and I've become Mr. Normal.

22:46

That makes sense and it does occur.

What I find intriguing with the outer body experience which is what Caroline and what what the American doctor had gone through.

They seem to be we we can clearly say that both the conscious and the subconscious have moved away from the body and then let them to call components because people often don't realise it.

23:13

The the consciousness is a is a complex set of filing cabinets.

Really, you know, we operate with the small amount of for the conscious is that it's our alert state.

The bulk of the the brain power that is built into the subconscious, probably 9090% of it may be a subconscious compared to the conscious because if we relied on just the conscious, we would have the memory of a goldfish literally.

23:45

And so when these events occur, we can say, yeah, the conscious and the subconscious must therefore detach itself away, but do remain within one mass of of components rather than being split up.

24:04

And these are the there's always clues within them that take us on to the case after.

And there's literally thousands of these cases.

And you know, hopefully it may resonate to one of the listeners.

And they say they bring a story because Caroline's differs slightly because she was actually on the floor standing behind to the right hand side of it.

24:29

Most most of the ones that get reported, they seem to be floating.

No one up to now is.

And I asked Caroline the same question is ever said that this they've seen their limbs such as the hands, their arms or the legs.

24:46

No one ever reports that Michelle.

So it's almost as if it is what they're experiencing or they're looking through like a monitor.

They're not actually physically floating with arms and legs in a spiritual sense.

It's just simply almost like a lens really that travels around the room and allows this process to occur.

25:07

Does that does that make sense that it does.

It's fascinating and it lends itself I think to the question is as to well if this is an experience while someone is breathing, what then does happen at the point of death?

Can you have that physical separation on a more permanent level?

25:24

Because obviously what we've been talking about and it it kind of comes into something that I have talked about with someone previously as well, whereby they had this experience where they were on an investigation and and during the course of the night they saw heard things that they said were them.

25:46

So it was their voices that they heard, their physician that they were seeing and they were started wondering if what they were actually seeing was themselves haunting themselves, you know a future self or their consciousness haunting themselves.

26:02

And it kind of reminds me of what you were just talking about, this sense of this separation from the physical body is this.

They were experiencing that moment whilst they were on the investigation, just minus the trauma and the shock.

26:20

Yeah, absolutely, totally.

The when we look at, people often get confused and say, well, is it a dream that I've had?

Dreams are very random and tend to be quite unusual.

We're talking about events that the the individual is seeing exactly what's occurring at this moment in time.

26:40

So it it it is, it is reality.

So it's not a dream state and I think it leads onto nicely onto the near death experience.

I think it absolutely lends itself to then kind of stepping into near death experiences because you can you can see how similar they are.

27:02

And yet it just goes that one step further because this is someone who is close to death, he's having this experience.

So what's the showing?

It's slightly different because the process is completely different.

This as you rightly said it, this is an individual that's close to death.

27:20

Major organ failure.

The bodies begin to shut down and the process is it's always exactly the same what they feel.

They're obviously unconscious and suddenly feel a sensation of a blast of air across the face.

27:36

Similar to say you're doing 10 mile an hour in a in a in a vehicle and you put your head through the window that light blast of air.

The second stage is the individual begins to feel being pulled forwards is a definite sensation of being pulled.

27:53

Then the blackness opens up and what we call the tunnel which everyone is familiar with and you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

As you travel forward the light gets bigger till eventually you see shapes which take on human and shapes which then take on physical beings that you're familiar with.

28:18

And where this gets interesting then is where the the shakes have become.

Yeah, definitely human.

They're individuals that they recognise and in all cases there are always people that have passed away, including those that they weren't even aware that passed away.

28:39

So the the the sceptics may argue that some sort of psychotic because of hallucination are some sort of default that the brain locks into to make the the process of death easier.

But how would the subconscious be aware of somebody who passed away if they didn't know that information in the 1st place?

29:03

So those people have seen, you know, when they come back to this year, one thing about the new experience, they do survive in the back of the body.

So when they do speak about it later, they will say, well, Joe Bloggs aside, Joe Bloggs there is well, oh, did you not know he'd passed away?

No, I didn't.

29:19

That's unusual.

Now at this stage this is generally the most common point where someone's then step step forward and some sort of discussion then takes place and then the individual is convinced to return back to the to the body.

29:40

Those that have entered this part because people can still slip back to the physical body at any point had to do the you know the they feel the blast of the air then the the moving forwards some some do report it's that point that the back to the body or they go further.

29:59

So if they've got as far as seeing people, they've all passed away, always loved ones.

All of the experiences always say there's an immense feeling of peace and this love and a happiness that that that surrounds them.

30:20

They don't take any of the negativity that we have on our physical films such as anger, sadness, that type of thing.

And what gets interesting when you speak to the experiences of this is it's almost in a way they don't want to go back to the body.

30:37

They like the feeling that they've got, particularly if you, if you've been greeted by loved ones you're not seeing for a number of years.

Where it gets even more interesting is when you look at the cases that are more unusual.

30:53

And the one I'm going to mention now is again, it's an American female doctor and she again has gone in to her first born child.

Something's gone wrong and she's haemorrhaged very badly and her body begins to shut down.

31:09

She's got, she's suffering organ failure.

She has exactly the same process.

The blast of air, the feeling have been pulled forward travelling down the this tunnel sees the light, sees how humanoid shapes then turn out to be people that she recognises.

31:26

All of them have been passed away.

The individual that stepped forward to her to talk to her was in fact her auntie from her mother's side that had passed away some years before the discussion takes place.

And she said at this stage she actually did, Wasn't sure if she actually wanted to go back but her auntie said, look, your first boy child's there, your husband loves you, you need to go back and next thing is she wakes up in the theatre on all is well.

31:58

Now she becomes unusual because when she had a second child, exactly the same occurred.

She hemorrhaged again.

So she's unusual because she actually had one of those.

It's had two experiences.

Where it differs now is that when she goes through into the individuals that she meets at the end, it's not an auntie, it's stood in front of her, it's her own mother who died in the intervening intervening years.

32:27

So it seemed to be that somehow the the first occasion was the auntie, her mother was alive while her mother's passed away.

She's the one who meets her, convinces us to go back to the body.

I don't know what that suggests where you have one person there in spirit and then on the 2nd occasion someone very different.

32:49

What does that tell you?

I mean it's it's intriguing is that to do with what our own minds going who want to see their role.

But that doesn't suggest that if if you're also seeing people that you don't know passed on.

Because when you look at the sceptical side, yeah, the sceptics that look at these cases, they'll always choose the straightforward, simple ones that are easy relatively to to be able to debunk it.

33:16

I've never been able to understand where we get this.

Exactly the same process, the blast of air, the movement forward, you know there's been pull, the travelling, seeing the human eyes and so on and so forth.

The process is always exactly the same.

The medicals and the sceptics suggest that this is down to some simple because human evolution, it's some sort of default.

33:41

Well, maybe, but why is it we don't see pink elephants or jungles or middle of a desert?

It's always this same process.

How is that installed into the complex consciousness of the humane and we are complex, I grant that.

34:00

And they do have problems when it comes to people like this one where she's gone through.

She's a rare one.

She's gone through.

You know she's not there's not precedented.

She's not certainly not the only one to have two near death experiences and there was subtle differences because intervening here a mother unfortunately she had passed away and she went on.

34:21

She didn't have any children after that though.

And you've also got other cases where in the the 1980s the the BBC ran a a series of looking into possible afterlife and the case of Jordana Khan came to came to light and she was an Indian girl with Indian parentage.

34:48

She was actually in India when this event occurred to her.

It wasn't into the the early 1980s when she came to live in the UK.

When she's contacted by the BBC to tell her story, she's fascinating because she again is one of a small number of people have gone even further.

35:12

So in the case American Doctor, on both occasions she's managed to get to the light, sees these people convinced to go back.

Judana went even further and this is where it gets interesting.

And what actually occurred to her when she was in India, she came down with some form of of blood poison.

35:33

Her father was an Indian doctor and was providing the the care for her for extremely sick data.

At some point she began to deteriorate to the point when she began to completely lost consciousness and her body functions and she began to shut down and she then entered into the near death experience and we were due down as she went through exactly the same process as we described earlier.

36:02

But when she got to the end she didn't recognize anybody because he's only about 8 or 9 years of age.

At this point she didn't really know anybody Michelle that had passed away.

So she's looking at what she seemed to be strangers, what she then saw to her right hand side it somebody stood out to be different, which was a guy with golden hair with a like a white smock type of clothing on.

36:32

Now at this stage, the people have gone this distance and see this entity, this stands out.

It seems to depend on your own spiritual beliefs.

So if you were a Catholic, for example, you may see the Virgin Mary, If you're Christian, you may see Christ.

36:48

If you're a Muslim, you may see Muhammad, you may see Buddha or whatever.

Your spiritual beliefs occur because the divisions that people report differ depending on what you believe in yourself.

So what actually happened to Diana is that she's totally confused.

37:07

This guy comes to her and talks to her, asks why she's there.

What she then says is that I don't know.

I was not very well.

I want, I need, I want to go back to my parents.

I love my parents.

I need to go back.

And he said can't make that decision.

37:23

Within seconds she's now at the foot of another, what she calls Golden Haired Guy.

Many people that perceive it's God Michelle, you know.

It's anyone's guess who she's looking at, but it seems to be another individual now honour travelling to this place she reports on seeing like a coloured garden type of surroundings.

37:50

It wasn't like a mist or you know, the countryside.

She seemed to be a very different garden.

I'll come back to that garden in a short while.

She then meets this other guide again.

Another discussion takes place then.

38:08

All she remembers then is waking up some days later back in India.

So when she begins to tell her parents about what what's happened here, they seem to think that she's gone through some sort of near death experience.

38:27

So when they come to live in the UK in the start of the 1980s, she was encouraged to speak to the BBC, which they sent an investigator down to authenticate and document this full event that occurred.

38:44

And then they run the documentary on the TV.

Now one of the things that do down the car was was an artist.

So what she's actually done asked by the BBC to do was to draw what she regarded people may conceive.

39:03

This is heaven, for example, The afterlife.

And she drew a picture of what she thought, what she could remember, which you know, the different colours, the trees, the plants, the river and so on and so forth.

39:20

The BBC then spoke to another experience that I've gone through practically identical process, so we've got two different types of nationality here, but seem to be experiencing exactly the same process all the way through to when they returned back to the body and it was a lady by the name of Rachel Goldsmith.

39:45

And what she asked is, could she see the picture that Diana Khan had painted?

And she said it's absolutely identical to what she remembered when she went through her out of her of her near death experience.

40:04

So when you look at case after case after case, you're almost simply repeating the same story.

Michelle They are the same, but they do seem to travel different distances.

What is also interesting is when someone like to OK, we know that Didana Khan was out unconscious for at least two or three days, but the other people have gone through a near death experience that have been out for a couple just a couple of minutes.

40:33

But when they report the experience back, it's almost as if this journey had been taking place over an hour.

So it seems to be that when these events occur, time as we know it doesn't seem to work in the same way that we have time.

40:53

Does that make sense?

It does.

And time is an interesting concept in itself because, you know, obviously we have ways of measuring time that are a construct.

But you know, whether that is something that is really at play, whether time is linear like that, I don't know.

41:14

I mean, there's so many questions around that in itself.

But I find these, I find these kind of intriguing because like you said, you can almost rationally say, well, yeah, I'm sure in the process of coming close to death and dying that there are automatic bodily functions that you're, you know, your body goes through in those moments, you might feel cold.

41:38

You might have that sensation called blaster there.

So some of those you could have as that, but it's so difficult to understand is how across cultures, across time, across gender, across geography, everything, there is almost these shared conscious experiences that people seem to have with the same detail attached to them.

42:01

Whereby in any other aspect of science, if you start taking out these variables, you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have something so similar at the end of it, you know, it would change and it would morph and it would, it would radically alter.

And yet even with all of these variables based on age, gender, country, culture, all of that still seem to be the same.

42:26

And I don't know how that, how that is possible.

That's the bit that I struggle with.

How they don't because so vastly.

Yeah, it's really difficult to do a discussion on near death experience.

All right buddy, because there are ways to say exactly the same, just repeating the same story.

42:45

What I always look for here are the the differences are the strongest examples.

They're the ones that the sceptics and debunkers avoid.

They don't like the strongest examples because it doesn't quite fit in with their mantra or with some sort of defaulted.

43:02

It's still in the realms of possibility that you know it's you.

You may have easily got to the point where it's got some sort of defaulted programme that when you're going to die, he's going to kick into this sort of method.

Well, why would it do that If you're already unconscious, you're unconscious, you're unconscious.

43:23

So why send the off on another trip, on a wasted trip, for example, down some tunnel with seeing loved ones and so on, when if they'd have left you where they were unconscious, you wouldn't be aware of anything, would you?

And I I certainly don't buy it because the the processes are always exactly the same.

43:44

And when you start to use, you know, people say about different drugs, if it's morphine, in the case of those who've gone through palliative care, through cancer or other sorts of painkilling drugs, there is a possibility that yes, it will.

44:01

You could hallucinate up to a point.

But these that stand out ones, it's always exactly the same process.

We don't see a pink elephant mixed in in there or some other unusual event.

44:17

It's always exactly the same.

And I've never been able to quite understand why that would be.

And it's this can't be involved because if it was down to medication that you're taking, they would differ greatly, wouldn't they?

44:37

You know, if people hallucinate, they say generally hallucinate and you know, particularly people on going through palliative care with morphine, they will begin to experience unusual things.

But they can be so random and different.

They were talking about something which is always it's still subjective, but they do the processes always practically identical.

45:01

And I think that subjectivity is really important because like you said, you would expect the experience to differ because we as humans are very different.

And let's be really honest, for some people, you know, they would want to have a visit from their, from their pet dog.

45:19

For the, you know, animals could be just as important to us as human beings in terms of companionship.

And so the fact that you don't have those experiences that come through, the fact that it does seem to follow this kind of pattern is the intriguing part.

45:37

Because like you said, why is it that we're not seeing a place that's that's familiar, that's that's something that they would want to return to, Maybe a childhood memory with a dog, with their cat, with their favorite parrot, whatever it is?

No, that's a good point.

Actually, Michelle, that's a very, very good point.

45:54

I'll remember that one because you're you're absolutely right, you know, and I think the one where people see people that they weren't even aware had passed away becomes more intriguing, you know, And I think these are the ones that stand out, that met, that are the ones that we need to to talk about.

46:18

But all the others in the literary hundreds, hundreds of thousands of cases, that's always exactly the same.

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49:03

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49:22

Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

How is it that near death visions are different to what we've just been talking about?

49:40

This is where they're actually engaged with this, with this, their own surrounded that loved ones around them.

There are a few examples of because it it's generally the end game, you're not going to come back from this which makes the event more emotional, more distressing because the individual is genuinely coming to the end of their life.

50:03

There are a couple of just simple exceptions to that which we've come to, including one of my own brother over recent times.

And it appears to be that anyone that's has had a loved one who may be in hospital and either through illness or disease coming to the end of the life.

50:22

It's a highly distressing and emotional time for anybody for this to occur.

And what people, these experiences generally get reported by loved ones, including nurses, work in hospices, doctors and hospitals generally loved ones, as well as the individuals coming through the process of death.

50:44

They report unusual events that's occurred with the individual.

And the example I'm going to touch on 1st, which is one that hit the headlines just a few years ago, was associated to, to Steve Jobs, you know, the Apple Foundation founder of Apple.

51:02

He was going, yeah, he was going through palliative care and this become quite wild, you know, because obviously when you know this Steve Jobs, the Apple founder, passed away, people wanted to know things and what they said it actually happened over the last next, the remaining few hours of Steve Jobs life, he suddenly become very aware he at that point was under heavy sedation, you know, morphine because of the of the cancer that he was unfortunately suffering from.

51:38

But he came very aware of his surroundings and seemed to be focusing directly and above what was in front of him.

And he said he just suddenly became incredibly alert and began to use the word of wow as he's looking around and scanning what was in front of him, obviously the loved ones around him.

51:59

I think what is he seeing?

Is he hallucinating because of the of the drugs, which is what is occurring, And even those that just may not be induced with drugs, they seem to go through a similar process, those that fall unconscious and just simply drift away into that.

52:20

They're different.

But the ones that seem to experience now, I have spoken to people where, you know, a perfect example will be somebody's father is in hospital and he's not very well but he's not expected to suddenly pass away and the son goes to visit him asking how he said yeah, no, I'm.

52:46

I'm doing OK.

I saw your mother last night so.

Well, Dad, Mum's dad, you know.

But she, she, I've been seeing her over the last couple of nights.

She's there talking to me and they seem to talk in a method.

53:02

It's very matter of fact.

It's if it's normal because if if you were in bed Michelle and your passed away relative come talking to you, I think we would freak out a bit wouldn't we?

But he doesn't seem to bother.

It's it's almost like a Mary matter of fact event.

53:20

Days later, father passes away.

The son will or the loved ones who interpret that his relatives have come forward to take the soul away.

The old soul collector and the repeated events like like this, they're very difficult to document because they're highly emotional.

53:41

Charged about this because we're dealing with the end of someone's physical life.

Some Hospice nurses I've spoken to have said when the person's passes away, I know when the soul or the spirit is like the body.

It can be anything between 2 minutes and 20 minutes.

54:00

That's an interesting observation by somebody such as Hospice nurse that's used to dealing with death on on a daily basis seem to recognise the signs of something does occur when the the body finally passes away then of course they will probably move.

54:22

From the data visions of, it appears to be almost a vision of something quite beautiful and peaceful that's waiting for you.

And then as you step into that realm, you then go through the process of the what wouldn't be a near death experience, but the genuine experience.

54:42

Because I would imagine that the process continues as it would as a near death experience would be, except you wouldn't be coming back.

It is the actual end game, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And and I kind of echo some of what you said because I used to work in in Hospice.

55:00

I worked in nursing homes and footy.

I speak to you who works in this field pretty much has the stay which is this is something that they experience in almost every single case where someone passes away in the in the run up to when passing they have some experience or another similar to what you've just described.

55:19

And fascinating that it does seem to echo so much in what people experience and share whether it's family, whether it's carers who are there looking after that person.

It's universal.

It seems to be because when you compare them yeah you're absolutely right with this.

55:38

I I didn't appreciate that you you worked in that industry.

Certainly when you compare a death pet vision they seem to be aware they're not yet passed.

They're just and some are actually conscious when they see these things.

It's in front of them.

55:55

Those who have gone through a near death experience never report a summer experiences.

Those as a death petition, they never report.

Oh yeah, while I was in the operating room, I saw a funny light and it's like moving in front of me.

56:11

I saw your granny next to me and so on, so forth.

They don't report that.

They'll report it blast of air and then moving forward.

So it's almost as if there's since sometimes it work, it knows the process is going to occur and the reason why they differ from greatly from one to the other.

56:30

So if that makes sense.

So I've witnessed, I was just going to say, I've witnessed people, their hands moving, they're reaching out for something.

They'll sit up, You know, they they will physically lift themselves up from the bed.

And these are often sometimes very frail individuals.

And yet they're lifting themselves up and they're mouthing.

56:49

They're, they're trying to communicate and they might be too frail to hear what they're saying, but they're talking to someone.

And, you know, you have various different examples and things like that, which again, are just so difficult to discount as experiences that you've witnessed.

Yeah.

57:05

Because they don't happen.

OK.

Obviously, you know, I went through seven or eight months ago, My brother-in-law was under palliative care.

So in the last couple of hours of his life, I didn't really experience anything that would have thought what's going on.

57:21

I did.

I was looking for the signs and it's a difficult one to approach.

My sister and the children say, did you, did you notice anything?

It's it's a subject which is a bit taboo when it comes to investigating things.

So my brother which I spoke to last Thursday, is the original podcast that we're going to do some four weeks ago, unfortunately had the council committee but there was involved with the serious motorcycle accident.

57:51

He'll probably remember and he's still in hospital, says he's going to be in a few more weeks yet and the I'll quickly talk you through the story, what actually happened and this discussion I had with him last Thursday, because he had something that's occurred that he wanted my my thoughts on.

58:10

And when he had his motorcycle accident, he hit another car.

Another duty fireman stopped to help him.

The paramedics arrived and then the police arrived treating him and they're trying to make a decision on how seriously injured he was.

58:26

He was conscious.

He wasn't home class.

He was conscious.

Now the police themselves.

When his brother was telling this story last week, he used a particular term and he didn't know what the police officer meant when he asked the paramedic the question.

58:42

I do know what it meant.

I'm not going to repeat it, but what it means is that the individual that being treated on the roadside is not expected to live.

This is where he's done.

So this mechanism then can take place, such as shutting the road down and so on and so forth.

59:02

The the paramedics decided that the safest and quickest way was to airlift me brother directly to Liverpool Hospital, which is the main trauma unit, and that's exactly what happened.

So my brother remembers he was fully conscious in incredible pain, loaded onto the helicopter 1012 minutes later.

59:24

They're now at Liverpool Hospital and he gets wheeled in to the trauma unit where there's five or six people around him checking through various vital signs.

What we both got slightly confused with is he said.

59:39

When I when I went into the trauma unit, people asking me questions and to me right hand side come walking to me with a vicar, why would he be there?

I said well because they feared that you may not survive this.

You know, as a matter of fact, we know you're going to survive because it happened 4 weeks ago, so you're going to be OK.

1:00:00

But at that point, people need to make a decision over just how seriously bad you are and the prognosis wasn't good at that stage.

The reason why he was present basically the the reason why I want to.

Talk to you, he said.

1:00:16

What then happened?

So he said they're asking me various questions.

He said, you know, end of the day, Vicar will also try to reassure you to make sure you're OK.

So did you have any gas in air?

He said no, I didn't have any gas in air.

I don't think he was giving anything for for the pain.

1:00:32

Because what they're saying to me, even though I was asking for something, is we need to keep you conscious because you need to help us.

Tell us where you're hurting, how you're feeling at the beginning, to work through it and find out it's how seriously battered he is.

1:00:48

What he then described to his left hand side was almost like he said he was like a shimmering jet black object that seemed to grow from a small cricket side ball outwards.

And he said he in a way.

1:01:03

Are you familiar with the movie Michelle Ghost?

Yes.

Patrick Swayze.

Yeah.

I think everybody knows that movie.

Yeah, because my brother, my brother's six years old, older than me and he, he has a completely different, we are a bit like chalk and cheese.

1:01:23

We, you know, we we have different belief mechanisms.

So what he's trying to do is describe to me what he saw using members of this is what it was like and what he described it is when the bad Batman get killed, you get these black entities come out the ground and grab him.

1:01:45

He said he was he said it wasn't like that I didn't have arm a leg but he said it's like a black liquid blackness that suddenly seemed to grow outwards and get bigger.

And he said I was totally confused.

He said I've got the vicar on me round side speaking to me, asking, are you OK?

1:02:03

And I've got this scene, what the heck is this on the bottom side of me?

He said.

Then he began to dissipate and become almost like snowy, misty shape.

The vicar said.

Are you OK?

He said.

What's that there?

1:02:21

Vicar's totally confused.

He doesn't see anything, probably likewise with the doctors around him.

Then he said there in front of me was our father.

Now my father died in 1985.

He said he was there then five or six seconds later disappeared, dissipated, dissipated and gone.

1:02:42

What happened to him obviously clearly affected him because he's only actually spoken to me about this and it troubled him because he didn't really have a spiritual belief, if that makes sense.

And he was trying to make sense of what occurred.

1:03:00

What has happened is this.

I wasn't on any medication.

I said you can check with the doctor's notes.

I wasn't giving any gas on it.

I generally saw this.

What what it was it?

I said It sounds similar to a death pet vision, but stopping partway through and suddenly Father's confident in his oldest son and to give you some sort of reassurance that you're OK.

1:03:30

That's about the closest I could actually come to an interpretation for him.

My intention is to follow him through up and want to know exactly if he was on some medication, that type of thing.

But he seems to have gone through quite a profound experience Now.

I've never seen my brother cry Michelle ever.

1:03:48

Yet he did on Thursday.

He found her deep and emotional, not disturbing through if that makes sense.

I think they're either very emotional and cathartic or in some cases what to talk about because they can't process what they've experienced, they can't make sense of what happened.

1:04:07

And I suppose if you've already had something that it is confusing, it's just adding to that confusion or if it's changed your your belief systems or shaking that your belief systems as difficult to then wrap your head around, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so, because.

1:04:25

He.

Me brother, if if we I'm not being unkind or cruel to him, be tight.

He would have more fear of that than the probably I would do because just the way our creators have gone.

So he he would have been frightened on the day that it happened because he he'd had broken ribs.

1:04:45

He'd had internal bleeding.

His, his his his right wrist was twisted.

Almost practice off completely.

His left foot was the same.

His knee was smashed up.

He was well battered.

And that, you know the medical savage I worked through to find out exactly what's gone wrong so he would have been framed because he, I think we all know when we go through this kind of trauma we can we generally know there's something seriously wrong.

1:05:12

It's different than just falling over in the street and you banged your elbow you know something badly wrong.

So you've got this added fear and my brother rest assured as they asked him the question, he says I I was scared.

I really thought I wasn't going to make it.

1:05:29

Particularly got the vicar coming, talking to me wondering what the heck he wanted.

Then he realised I think I've got a good idea and then this happened to me.

Left hand side almost like a culprit.

He didn't experience a reduction in fear.

1:05:46

So for example, far, you know, passed away father putting appearance in to comfort him, to reduce his stress and anxiety.

He didn't make any difference to him as far as that was concerned.

He just found it totally confusing, more so when he spoke to the vicar.

1:06:05

The vicar said, well, I don't see what you're seeing.

What did I experience?

And this is another one with him.

My brother was fully conscious, Psalm his, his father in front of him, yet no one else could.

1:06:21

What is occurring there?

Is this pure hallucination, you know, or is it something totally different?

I mean it's a compelling question and I would say that you know there will people that there will be people that fall either side of where they feel that the answer to that is.

1:06:41

But there is an awful lot of evidence out there of this type of experience which does seem to add weight to that.

There is some some kind of consciousness after death that and these are perfect examples of what you've been talking about where someone gets close or has an experience that just allows them to be just on that edge of experiencing that.

1:07:08

And yeah, I think if you if you research into this, you find more and more examples, which is fascinating.

Yeah, because I'd I'd not seen me brother for some weeks.

And so when I went to him 30, he's obviously within minutes of my arrival he I'm there, just the two.

1:07:28

So no other family members around there.

And he felt more comfortable speaking to his brother rather than his sisters or his wife or children.

And he just needed to get it off his chest.

And I think the impact of when you interview people of the witness or the experience, it does have an effect on you because it's different than someone listening to me on on a podcast telling me telling the story.

1:07:54

To be there in front of them and seeing their eyes and the way they get emotional, as explained what had happened to them, has an impact, has an effect on you there.

Maybe you did in fact deal with something.

1:08:11

I I have issues as far as why is it no one else saw this, You know is it selective somehow?

Is it able to be selective?

Because you would have thought, you know, the ghost of me, father, everybody.

1:08:28

If he could, Steve could say, why not everybody else, but they couldn't.

I don't understand how that can work, The reason why, I think, you know, maybe we need to be cautious with some of it, because you can probably argue that you know, the shock can be a funny thing and it may introduce some sort of loosenotic euthanic visual event.

1:08:53

May not be spiritual, but then again it may well be.

Why would it be my father that he's done So if he was hallucinating through drugs, why didn't you see the old mythical Unicorn or a pink elephant or some other entity?

1:09:10

Why?

Why the father, and I think if anybody, as far as Steve's concerned, he the only close loved one he's lost.

He's my father.

Where myself I've got, you know, a sadly, a long list of individuals are sadly no longer with us.

1:09:31

We just don't know, you know.

But it just adds to the impact of what is the afterlife where we have a general C and I suppose if people, because people as we're talking now, Michelle, will be going through the awful trauma of a loved one, it coming to the end of the life may have just come to the end of life.

1:09:56

That there is that relief.

If you believe it enough that you know you, you probably will see him at some point in time.

And it's certainly a comfort, particularly in the day and age of believing.

1:10:11

At the moment.

Multiple wires all over the place and all this sadness going around there, you know, maybe there is something there waiting for us.

Who knows?

You know about three years ago my mother's 94 years of age still alive and she came down with a strange illness with called Delirium I, utterly bizarre.

1:10:36

And when she went into hospital we all generally felt this is the end game and I was preparing my sisters for this event and the the 48 hours before the because she recovered she's, you know, she's back at home and enjoying life again and everything went OK.

1:11:00

But the time, you know, she was seriously ill, We generally felt that she may be coming to the end end of her life.

My sister Lisa said yeah, but wait, he said, well let's see Mum last night, because obviously taking turns to see her each night, Mum was saying that she kept seeing a a white light on the light What?

1:11:20

What's that light that's hopping about, moving about?

So my mother's appear to be experiencing some form of bright light in front of her for quite some time and was it because she got the delirium which was causing the mass confusion within her or was she seeing something like like I don't know, you know, many people have different ideas of what this white light would be, but I did remember it thinking, well is there something happening?

1:11:52

OK, my mum.

Was absolutely fine.

She never saw anything except just this white light.

In a way, offers great comfort to the loved ones that are left behind Thing.

Yeah, they're together now.

You often get this expression, don't you?

1:12:08

You see on grave stars together at last type of thing.

And I suppose at some stage when my brother's out of hospital and we have a social event and when my brother will begin to speak more openly about this because he's a bit of a closed shop, the family can take comfort in the fact that you know he has put an appearance in recently my mother 94 years of age, he's getting close Michelle into maybe you know take comfort he'll be around at the time and once again there'll be, we'll be together again.

1:12:44

And we can't take great comfort from from talking about the cases like this.

You know they're certainly more peaceful than talking about Poulter case and and that's the thing they are I think really peaceful interesting stories.

1:13:01

But I also think as a as a collective, they do add real credence.

To that question.

Of what is happening, You know what?

What is going on?

Because when we move on to the the past lives it gets even more compelling that if you look at the the ones we've spoke about which is the the outer body experience seems to be some form of psychological thing where the country somehow could become detached and that then returns.

1:13:31

It gives us some degree of insight.

The near death experience and the depth dead visions, these are more spiritual minded.

This is where we're actually breaking the veil of the the barrier between the physical and spiritual and we're moved in and having a bit of a look and the nosy neighbour into what is actually occurring there.

1:13:56

So if we're ready to move into the next one.

To kind of bring us to the last area that we were.

Going to talk about which is past slides.

If we look at the process, it's almost like a recycling of the consciousness where we go through this process of physical death into some sort of spiritual realm.

1:14:23

And you know we spoke about the near death experiences and what people have experienced themselves and we and we pour in hundreds of thousands of cases.

What then happens when you get to the, what we call the afterlife?

1:14:39

Do you remain there or do you return?

There are different spiritual beliefs from you know you go to different levels and you know there are also reports of people saying that they've had multiple several past lives the.

So if we take a presumption that you enter the the actor, like what then happens?

1:15:00

Do we reincarnate or do we stay where we've gone so we'll now gently move into the area of the the actual past life itself.

Now, this isn't anything sought to do with past life regression where you have a third party psychiatrist or somebody else noticed.

1:15:23

It will take you through that process because the light of your days is.

It's possible then to introduce false memories.

You know, we have this with the alien abductions, don't we?

Run, people have no memory.

Then you go to see some sort of hypnotherapist or some sort of process and then they recount going through an alien abduction or other cases where they talk about being involved in Egypt or the Roman invasion and so on.

1:15:53

The ones that if you wanted to stick with, with, with with one exception are those involving children that are reporting the events we spoke last time on the last podcast.

With regard to the 7030 ratio of 70% males compared to 30% females appear to experience a past life or at least have a past life of a male more so than than a female.

1:16:27

And we were able to mass that to the 307030 ratio of unnatural deaths and more associated with a male than what they are with a female.

Not that more females get reincarnated.

The fact is that the the females are more cautious and probably, you know, as a male, I'll probably say it is, they're not as stupid, are they, as the male counterparts.

1:16:53

It will take a risk with the lies.

And the reason why we have this ratio of 3070 to 30 the past life is we don't really have it in the UK as such.

It's not really something that we have part of our spiritual beliefs.

1:17:14

Although most religions have some sort of context in talk about a afterlife, but they generally talk about heaven rather than what you know actually returning back onto the physical plane.

India areas like there they is part of their make up. 40% of Indians believe in reincarnation in Tibet.

1:17:38

With the Dalai Lama they actually get their next leader, spiritual leader, based on the reincarnation of the predecessor.

So certainly within Eastern culture, past lives is part of their religious, spiritual structure.

1:17:55

Where the West differs is I don't believe that we research them as well as maybe we could do and they are much easier cases of the of the of the four topics that were spoken about today, two actually research.

1:18:11

Any panel investigator, any researcher of anyone as an interact can research these once they've become aware of the experience.

So the ones that I'm going to talk about today are those that come from Doctor Jim Tucker.

1:18:28

Jim Tucker is an American psychiatrist psychologist moved into power psychology.

And because of his, particularly as a psychiatrist, he's dealing with children that were behaving somewhat unusually or strangely, The reason why they referred to from a doctor for example.

1:18:49

And he is investigated over 3000 cases of what he calls past life traumas.

And it generally happens.

We all know about children that have imaginary friends, Michelle.

You know, the children seem to have some sort of discussion with somebody, which we say is an imaginary friend of that.

1:19:09

And it's always questioned over exactly what it is this child is going through it.

The the children that report these events, it generally comes from parents because they're trying to work out what's happening to their child.

So the earliest is around about two years of age, seems to increase ages 4:00 to 5:00, then by a six at age 8, the the memories appear to completely dissipate.

1:19:36

Once we're a teenager, they have no memory whatsoever of what they've experienced don't remember anything at all.

So it seems to arrive dissipate over a couple of years and then seems to be forgotten completely.

1:19:53

I think the children wants to look at are more interesting because you know, we we often say there's no deceit in a child.

At age 5, and particularly when they, they seem to be suddenly aware of information which she wouldn't expect a four or five year old child to have that information.

1:20:14

Does that make sense, Michelle?

Yeah, completely.

I mean there's there's limited knowledge that a child of that age will have had access to if that's what makes some of these cases particularly compelling.

And that's the intriguing part.

Yeah, Yeah, the there's plenty of literature out there, books and audio talking books available that cover this subject.

1:20:37

But Doctor Jim Tucker, he started, took over from another psychologist name of Professor Ian Stevens, another famous American psychiatrist.

He's spoken quite openly and and investigated it.

And where the cases of Jim Tucker, the ones that I'm going to pick on today, are two cases, one in the United States and what actually happened in the UK and Scotland.

1:21:02

And the first one was he was contacted via the American GP to look at the parents.

Their first child, who's about 2 1/2 to three years of age, began to appear to have memories over something that happened.

1:21:20

He wanted to be called a particular name.

So if you if you've been christened Brad, he wanted to be called Jim.

They don't understand it.

He then started to say that he wants to go back on the aircraft and I also wanted to visit his friends from the other life.

1:21:39

The reason why he contacted the GPA War, you know, is maybe some coming through some sort of psychotic episode.

So Jim Tucker got involved and this isn't involved in any sort of it.

No, says.

He's just gently talking to the child to get the information.

1:21:57

And what was able to ascertain from the these interviews he did with this young boy was that he was saying that he was involved in, he was a pilot and he flew a particular aircraft and actually named the aircraft as a Carter.

1:22:14

He was involved with the Second World War.

He was flying over Japanese island beginning with the letter I Sorry Joe because Iwo Jima in Japan and even named some of the crew that he knew from this other what he called his other life where he was before.

1:22:35

When Jim Tucker began to then investigate this, this young boy's claims he could simply just you know, he could exclude the fact that the Internet was involved because this is pre Internet what a 5 year old boy will be doing on the Internet Anyway.

He's questionable, but the Internet wasn't around.

1:22:53

Did were false memories.

Introducing to him impair his insistence.

They have no interest in what?

In the second war.

Neither with aircraft.

Don't know anything about this story.

It's just what young Brett was reporting.

1:23:09

It happened.

But what Jim Cooker was able to find out is that the name of the pilot, this young boy said he was actually existed.

And we did serve in a Second World War.

Did fly a car, say on an aircraft carrier, was involved with the Battle of Iwo Jima And we're quite interesting is the boy always said when he drew pictures of this aircraft, it was always in flames, it was on fire.

1:23:39

But when they looked at the American MOD and asked for questions that we don't know, all we know is this aircraft was lost.

So they did a little bit more research and were able to locate a living Truman that was on this particular aircraft carrier.

1:23:55

He remembers this pilot called GEM very well and what he said is the three aircraft had taken off from the carrier to do this bombing or Iwo Jima.

Only the two aircraft came back and he said, I do remember the pilot saying that he did by anti aircraft flag and the engine did catch fire and before he had the opportunity to bail out, the plane simply exploded.

1:24:22

So what Jim Tucker was able to do was to show that this boy at just four or five years of age seemed to have a memory of something that couldn't have been implanted by any other means other than a possibility of a past life.

1:24:42

Does that make sense?

Completely.

And it's, gosh, you would be flabbergasted for any child of that age to come up with that level of detail.

But to trace it and follow it through who saw this, this fire, which this child, you know, but nobody else had any knowledge of whatsoever and yet this child knew about.

1:25:02

It is just uncanny.

Yeah.

And when the latter was about 8 years of age, he had no memory.

So there's obviously follow-ups to take through the post.

And the ones I'm talking, there's over 3000 cases that Jim Tucker and continues to investigate to this day.

1:25:18

And these are like the standout ones.

And Jim Tucker was able to divide a sort of level between 1:00 and 10:00 and would give them a number on what they can find out and what they can't find out.

You know, sometimes the investigated a claim of a past life from a child.

1:25:37

They're just simply unable to locate and authenticate the experience what the what the child is actually saying.

What he was also able to show is you would often come across a boy that would have a past life of a female and a female that have a past life of a boy.

1:26:00

So there seemed to be an interchange.

You know, if you're a male in a past life doesn't necessarily guarantee you're going to be male in the next one.

You can change sexes.

And he also was able to show that some of the children that he did referred to something because these are all events that occurred on natural deaths.

1:26:23

So somebody for example, that had a birthmark maybe on the top right hand shoulder was found later because in the past slide they've been shot through the shoulder.

Some were more traumatic such as a scar or birth mark on on the head and sure not that was where the bullet had ended in the past life and so on.

1:26:48

So there seemed to be collaboration between the the physical life that they live in now to what it was that they're saying that experience in the previous life.

And also the children would often say.

1:27:04

Yeah, that my other mother or my other father used to do this.

This is this information that the child seems to have just simply dreamt up from somewhere.

But in reality we're able to prove that wasn't the case and they're able to locate the the area they were talking about to get together with the people that were involved with this past life.

1:27:31

And if we then look at the the case of a camel minority.

He was a young Scottish boy and what Camden again he was the first born.

He's born in Glasgow, in in in in Scotland.

And what he used to tell his mother was are you familiar with the.

1:27:51

I think it was the BBC programme called Strange but True.

I'm not.

I've not heard of that one.

Yeah it's I think it's around in the 1980s into the mid 1990s.

It was the commentator was Michael Aspel or Sir Michael Aspel.

1:28:08

He they run the series quite over quite a number of seasons called Strange but true.

They actually covered the Cameron story in some detail.

It is available on YouTube.

So if anyone wants to go back and look at that particular case it is on there.

1:28:25

It's called Strange but true.

And the young boy's name is Cameron.

And what Cameron was telling to his to his mother, again, because he's the first born, I think his parents.

You know, I've got two sons myself.

When you've had the first born, you're absolutely clueless as to what you're dealing with this child growing up.

1:28:47

And some of the the ways that they think and the way that they talk, it can be quite unusual.

And you sometimes you think you know, is he is that misbehaviour.

And in the case of Cameron, what he was saying to his mother, the name of Norma, was that his other mother lived in Barra in in Scotland.

1:29:09

And he talked about I preferred my living in that White House that we lived in, overlooking the beach.

And he spoke about his other brothers and sisters.

And he also spoke about an aeroplane that he used to land what he said on the beach.

1:29:27

And of the black and white dog that he had so that Barra Island itself is around about 200 miles away from from Glasgow, so some distance away.

But the parents interpreted this is just a wild imagination.

1:29:47

But the child himself would get incredibly angry because he wanted to go back to Barra.

So, you know, they said to your son, where would work.

I want to go back to Barry.

I want to see my my other mother.

I like, I want to see me sisters.

1:30:03

So it's causing him charmer.

So the parents decided that what they need to do is get involved with the Gussie GP reporter.

Is a child going through some psychotic episode?

And what the GP did put, they actually put them in touch with all people.

1:30:20

Doctor Jim Tucker in the United States and Jim Tucker eventually flew into Scotland and did the interview with Cameron and then followed up the story.

Now you may be familiar with Doctor Chris French, the power psychologist, also a skeptic.

1:30:43

He was at all also had some involvement with this one for Skeptic magazine.

But what Jim Tucker was able to do is they actually took Cameron and his mother to Barrow Island.

They were able to locate this White House that Cameron spoke about.

1:30:59

Initially they were somewhat confused over the aircraft.

The aircraft that landed on the beach, it turned in out to have actually been correct 80 odd years before.

The only way they could get their supplies to the island of Barra was by aircraft which actually landed on the beach.

1:31:21

So what Cameron was doing was saying about something that happened many, many years before turned out to be true.

So this again, is another startling event that seemed.

1:31:38

To be able to.

Be evidenced or by simply going back in time, going to the island, Barra finding the the white cottage that they lived in.

And Cameron also had a when the interviewed him, he told him exactly where everything was coming.

1:31:59

In the front door.

There's an oven fire to the left down side directly in front with the door that had her bedroom door to the right somewhere and so and so forth and also mentioned about a small like stream to the right back of the of the building that is in fact was proved to be correct.

1:32:20

So where did Cameron get this information from and it's incredibly intriguing.

Was in fact this Cameron the only thing that the ad was he got the name of his father wrong because what Cameron said is his other father was named Sean and had been killed in a motor accident that was never proved to be correct, that that's the only area which we were able to authenticate.

1:32:53

So the other suggestion given to that was, could this be a memory from a previous life to that one, if that makes sense?

Or is it just simply a false memory, a misinterpretation of a memory that he had He had like but incredible story.

1:33:09

Yeah, it's uncanny.

It really is truly uncanny.

It's really unexplainable.

I defy anybody to explain that because the the sceptics generally said it was just an over imagination of a child.

Which children can have an over imagination can can imagine all sorts of things, but not to the accuracy of what Cameron was saying, where they're able to authenticate and the reason why the parents sought help.

1:33:37

Cameron in the 1st place he was showing psychological issues because of this frustration is his parents were completely dismissive when he said well I want to go back to my other mother, I want to go back to the White House, I want to go back to the beach, I want to see my father and so on and so forth.

1:33:58

The reason why the the parents found the help in the first time and I think everybody who looked at this it.

Has been quite a well.

Documented case, and it is freely available out there, either on the in literature form or via YouTube, because certainly I've I've seen this story.

1:34:15

Bad, strange but true.

It differs greatly from the imaginary friend, which is what a lot of parents do generally have memories of a childhood knees.

You seem to be speaking to somebody that isn't there.

I think this is a completely different type of phenomena than the imaginary friend, so to speak.

1:34:35

I was just going to say I think the imaginary friend, you very much have the sense of they're bringing someone into their world, whereas past life is very much feels to me.

Whenever you read stories and you hear accounts of them, it's very much being pulled into another world, another life.

1:34:52

And that's I think the difference in the distinction from how I kind of see the two.

One, I think is absolutely a phenomena that a lot of children experience and go through.

But sometimes that imaginary friend is it something else.

And sometimes is what they sometimes is what they're talking about.

1:35:09

Just this other thing where there'd be like 1 foot in one place and one foot in another place.

Yeah, that's right.

Because the in all the cases of Jim Tucker and he has investigated over 3000 of these cases, all of them have been involved with unnatural deaths of the past life that it's referred to.

1:35:31

So there seems to be something different occurs.

I've spoken to numerous mediums over the years about reincarnation and past lives and the general consensus, although they probably haven't got any evidence to back this off.

1:35:48

It's just a general belief that the reincarnation on a normal natural death will be between 50 to 60 years.

I don't know how they did come come up with that figure, but that's generally the one that they they speak about when it comes to one natural death.

1:36:05

That the the past life of incarnation can occur quite quickly, sometimes in the matter of days on on some occasions.

So there isn't like hard and fast rules such as you'll stay in the afterlife for six months for example.

But it doesn't seem to work that way.

1:36:22

But the Jew generally in the case of karma, they would.

He was talking about a past life of 80 years before, not something very, very, very recent.

And they were able, I think it was much easier to research these cases because you can remove the possibility of people doing research via the Internet, which is something that, you know, it's a great asset to us today.

1:36:48

But it can be a bit of a, you know, problem for us When people say, well, he's simply just, oh, you know, you researched on the Internet.

Well, a child of four or five doesn't do that sort of research, which makes the case incredible.

1:37:04

And the other case I'd like to talk.

About now.

Is the case of Jenny Cockerel.

Because there are always exceptions, you know the ones that we refer to that are children between age of two to age 6.

1:37:22

Sometimes these, the unusual one comes when it happens much later in when somebody is into the 20s and 30s.

If you're OK to talk about this one, Michelle, I'd love to hear this one.

I think it'd be interesting to hear one that's a bit of an outlier, if that makes sense.

1:37:40

Yeah.

Again, this is another case.

It's been, you know, well documented.

It's out there on YouTube, the case of Jenny Cockrell.

And nothing really happens to Jenny Cockrell until she gets into a mid 20s and she gets married and almost immediately goes from a normal female got a job friend join life so suddenly married and now she's got problems.

1:38:14

She finds the experience of marriage and the physical side of marriage incredibly difficult.

She also has issues.

This is within weeks and months of them of getting married when her husband is what used to happen in the 1980s gets from end of the week.

1:38:31

He goes out with his friends on a Friday night.

He's coming back.

She for the hours leading up to when he returned, she becomes petrified and frightened with feelings that she can't understand because her husband's done nothing wrong and he never did anything wrong and he doesn't understand why she's so frightful when he walks through the door.

1:38:56

She does this probably many people would have done.

She goes to see AGP because she's been married and just simply couple of months and already are married.

She's running into problems because of what is happening around her.

She doesn't understand what's occurring.

1:39:14

So what the GP suggested she go to see a psychiatrist and go and talk to him to see some psychological embedded problem that can help you through therapy.

You know men in a way repair, but they didn't understand why she's having the psychological traumas she's certain going through it.

1:39:38

So she booked herself into see the psychiatrist.

What he was clever in doing is he used some degrees of hypnosis to trying to get into in a relaxed state, but he recorded each and every session.

1:39:57

Jenny Cockle and a friend then got the tapes and listened back to them.

And what she spoke about was this incredible story as regard to being a mother of seven children and she died very shortly after the birth of the 7th child and the children had been split up and she wanted to re contact these children.

1:40:29

And the woman she actually said she was.

And when when this guy she spoke to said her name was Mary Sutton.

I want to get my children back.

So when Jenny Cottrell, my friend, listened to these tapes later what what on earth was she reporting here?

1:40:48

So all friends suggested that they should do some research and that's exactly what they did.

All the findings will actually put in a book Carl across Time and Death and will the search for past life children.

What Jenny Cultural and Fen were able to do was prove that Mary did exist and she did die after the birth of 1/7 child.

1:41:15

Her husband was an unemployed alcoholic really.

He would frequently beat, go to the pub, get blind drunk, spend all the money there, come back and beat his wife.

What a psychiatrist was suggesting was that this, in fact what she's reliving her past life experiences.

1:41:35

The reason why when she got married, she was suffering the same anxiety is what Mary Sutton almost undoubtedly did suffer through.

So what our intention then was to go and see and if it was possible to locate the children because she knew what the names were, although she had no memory within herself, Michelle's all the memories were done through hypnosis.

1:42:03

So is there a possibility of, you know, psychiatry introducing false memories?

So she had the names.

What she was able to do was to locate all seven children and it's quite a famous picture of when she met with the seven children.

1:42:21

Some of the children weren't even aware that they'd been adopted particularly the three-year old and the newborn.

You know they just suddenly with adopted parents just presumed that was their parenthood.

But she was able to bring all seven children together.

1:42:38

And then the we have finished up with the picture of Jenny Cotterill with her children from the past life.

And what was interesting and if you're able to get hold of the documentary which is on YouTube, they interview the youngest of the sons of the family.

1:42:57

And when Jenny Kotchkall said when they listened to the tapes, the way she explained the house that they lived in was identical to what the children remembered.

It's one of those if anyone's got an interest in past life and wants to see take it further.

1:43:17

The book called The Cross Time and Death written by Jenny Cotwood S is a must go to for to read to be honest because that mapped it out the story in a lot more detail on what we've done for this very brief podcast.

But it's an incredible story and this is what happened to somebody that's into the into the 20s, not as a child as such and able to bring this family together in a way, the cross divide and the good, the good side, the positive aspect obviously with bringing the children together, even they weren't even aware that they've been separated.

1:43:54

Jenny Cottrell was was able to fulfil a marriage, go on to our children of her own and overcome the trauma that she experienced when she failed to get married.

So what a story.

It's quite emotional in the sense that what you've got here is lives that someone has been restored because they've been brought back together.

1:44:14

She also reports she'd had unusual dreams when she was married and there was like almost like a spiritual connection there as well, because later on when she listened to the takes of the psychiatrist and she realised that I've been having dreams about this woman.

1:44:35

So there seemed to be some almost like a spiritual connection of spiritual contact.

At the same time, we live in the this past life of the Mary Sutton and at the same time wanting to bring the children to this overwhelming need to bring the children together.

1:44:55

So it's almost as if the past life of Mary Sutton was embroiled within the current physical life of Jenny Cottrell.

And it's one of them cases well documented and quite a well known case throughout parapsychology and it's certainly available you know these various documentaries on YouTube but the book across time adapted written by Jenny Caldwell is incredibly compelling.

1:45:25

And these this is one of the in cases where the bunkers and sceptics stay well clear of because it's difficult for them to to be able to rationalize what has occurred here.

Very easy with the some of them they can probably suggest that well, the parents have given the ideas but this is where it involved again the medical profession out between the patient suffering the.

1:45:52

Trauma together.

With the psychiatrist or psychologist that gets them the help that they need.

So you know, because we often wonder, don't we, You know, I don't know if you have you got any brothers or or sisters yourself.

I'm one of five, so I've got plenty.

1:46:11

I've got four sisters and a brother.

So and you know when we, when we're younger, we shouldn't trip into different we want to do different careers.

We have different hobbies.

I I always wanted to I love motorbikes.

Yet there's no nothing within me family that suggests that they've ever had an interesting motorcycle.

1:46:31

And why is it that we are what we are?

Why is it that we're not almost like robots?

That we we born and we do everything in a set way?

If the skeptics are right that we there is a preset set of default that we enter into.

1:46:48

If that was the case, we'd all be the same.

But we're not.

We all have different likes and needs and so on and so forth, and it just makes the old subject more and more interesting.

Compelling because this is one of the very few opportunities we have where we can go beyond that veil into what we consider to be the afterlife.

1:47:11

And we can see this continuation almost like a recycler event that occurs from near death experience into death ambitions into the reincarnation, past life and this continuation of of life what what had we been before and what are we going to come back to later, you know.

1:47:35

So who knows?

Honestly, it's fascinating.

And I really do echo what we started off with at the very top of the podcast, which is that if people have their own short, you know, their own stories to share, maybe something that they've witnessed with a loved one, then get in touch, you know, feel free to touch Tony.

1:47:53

He'd love to to hear some of your examples.

This type of subject is I wouldn't say it's taboo in the UK, but it doesn't often get talked about.

I've done various polls on when I talk about people that that lose objects, objects just simply just disappear off the face of the planet, never to be seen again.

1:48:15

And it's surprising when people come by and say yeah I've experienced that and one with the parents is, is any of your children if you realise they've had an imaginary event.

Oh yes, we have experienced that.

And I think what I've tried to do and I encourage anybody, even if they're not sure of the event that they've got, is I have no problem taking statements from them.

1:48:38

I have no problem with their permissions is to send it into the Society Psychical Research and likewise with ASAP because we need we do need to document these cases, Michelle, because that's where we learned from them.

And that particular case I'm dealing with at the moment is where the the the television is suddenly writing unusual words into the search engine and on the smart TVI was able to mirror this event with other cases mainly because they're in the archive with particularly the SPR.

1:49:19

They've got archives going back 142 years.

And so sometimes because they're quite deeply some can be deeply personal events that they don't want in the public domain.

I think we can both understand that.

But what we can do is at least get them in documented into areas of the archives of the SPR and it surplus disparity and other researchers like yourself that tap into this data.

1:49:48

They could say, yeah this has happened before.

This is a similar case.

This is how they worked and it can also help other people that may go through simpler.

So I think we'll both be looking forward to receiving any information back and let's take it a stage further.

1:50:05

Maybe at some point in the future Michelle, you may want to recount some of these cases that that are generally not known about.

So you know as I say I echo look at the start of the cast.

If you've got an account that you wish to share that some of the lines of what we've been discussing in today's podcast, we'd love to hear from you know you your experiences because like you like you just said, it's so important to continue documenting them.

1:50:32

It's cross check and find correlations and differences and it just adds to this full picture that we've got.

So if anybody is out there, please don't hesitate to to get in touch with either myself or with Tony.

Honestly it's been such a wonderful conversation.

1:50:48

So thank you again for for another great discussion podcast and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.