Ghosts Among Us: Exploring the Causes of Common Hauntings with Kev Kerr

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history.

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Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

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Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast.

Well, guest.

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Today we are joined by a true luminary in the world of paranormal investigation, the one and only Kev Kerr.

Kev has been a dedicated researcher of the paranormal since his youth, driven by a passion to uncover the truth that lies beyond our understanding.

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In 2010, feeling the need to propel the field forward, he took a hands on approach to his investigations, realising that the methods in use were often stagnant.

From 2013 to 2020, Kev founded the website and blog Para Rationalise, a platform dedicated to expanding individuals comprehension of the paranormal.

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After a brief sabbatical from the paranormal field, Kev has returned with renewed vigour.

He's now actively championing an ethical and scientific approach to paranormal investigation through his presence on social media, engaging tik toks, thought provoking conference talks, and appearances on various podcasts and radio shows.

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Today, Kev is here to unravel the secrets behind the causes of common hauntings.

Join us as we embark on a journey to understand the unexplained, dissecting the mysteries that linger between the realms of the living and the departed.

Get ready to peer into the unknown with Kev Kerr.

3:44

Without further ado, let's unlock the gates to the paranormal and say hello to our guest.

Hi, Kev.

Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

4:00

No problem at all.

Do you want to just start by introducing yourself and maybe give a little bit of context your background within the paranormal?

Yeah, so I'm Kev Kerr.

I've been investigating the paranormal for about 15 years now and prior to that I was.

4:19

I'm completely obsessed with every paranormal book or ghost book I could get my hands on at the time.

And I started from a really young age, so it was, you know, as soon as I could read really, but managed to get my hands on ghost books, probably like four or five years of age.

But the thing for me was, it was nice reading about all these things.

4:37

As as time went on, he kind of realised there's not much new that was coming out of it.

So I went into the field myself, became a paranormal investigator and sort of wanted to see for myself what, you know, the likes of Harry Price was experiencing and all these wonderful people that I read about.

4:56

So I ended up joining a local team called Gloucester Paranormal Research run by a guy called Dwayne Souter and he I wanted the name Gloucester Paranormal Research and he already had it and it turned out he had only started about two weeks prior.

So it was really good timing.

5:12

I'd invested a lot of money into a lot of equipment and things I believed I needed at the time and I went out on the road into different locations and and then I because I they've become known as the debunker Nator because I already had that knowledge about the paranormal behind me and and a very critical thinking.

5:33

It kind of worked really well for me.

So I went on to things like the SPR and ASAP, so the Association of Scientific Study of Anonymous Phenomena and started sort of working on my own and created a thing called Power Rationalise which went on for a long time, which was a kind of blog slash Information Centre which started very, I say aggressively, it's probably the way to describe it.

5:56

I was very unhappy with what I saw in the field so I went from from doing that and that became me being a much more approachable.

And then I began to set up because I was working alongside Team Impact, which was poor Hob Day and basically we started to make the UK Paranormal Society.

6:17

But whilst that was being made, my first child so I couldn't really put the time so deserved into it so I had to step back.

Unfortunately they're doing very wonderful.

I believe you've had him on the show as well.

And then I've come back as just Kefco Paranormal, so nice and easy.

6:33

That's who I am and I like to help teams to do things better, work more ethically.

I'd like to try and advise as many people as possible and the best ways to perform experiments, or like to advise on how we can create a ghost or how we can be in a situation where we might not necessarily be experienced in the paranormal.

6:59

And actually there's lots of answers we got to consider before we get there.

Which is liked by quite a few as much as this, you know, like liked by quite a lot of people at the same time.

But personally, I feel I've got enough information and experience to be able to put myself into that position.

7:16

As I say, there was a few people in the paranormal that don't agree with my approach, but the most important thing for me is is obviously safety for people and and being ethical and you know, we're getting hurt by the paranormal in that sense.

And and this is precisely why I really wanted the chance to actually to talk to you and and have you share some of this knowledge and and really kind of look at it from this perspective because it's something I've mentioned on various podcasts in the past it.

7:43

It's almost this sense of but if you do bunk things, if you are somewhat sceptical and you're not 100% believing that everything that is being experienced is paranormal, that somehow that that is really something disgusting and The Dirty word and that somehow means you're not a true paranormal investigator or believer or or all of those things, You're kind of pushed to the side.

8:08

And I think it was Chris Howley who who brought this up on a podcast in the past where he said he thinks of it as a triangle and you have to be in the middle.

You can't be completely one thing or completely the other.

You have to be open to both.

8:24

And I think that's all well and good saying that, but I don't think there is enough of highlighting some of the science, the thinking, the approaches, the thoughts that happens when being sceptical.

Still we see far too much of this, everything being highlighted and showcased as well.

8:44

This is this and this is that.

And then nothing being substantive behind that or no other explanation given.

And if it is, it's just this very kind of off the cuff remark that people will hear but don't necessarily understand, Well, why are you saying it's that as an explanation?

9:03

Why can't it be this?

There's no kind of substance to the comment that they're saying.

They're trying to explain something away in the same way that if they're trying to prove something, they'll have a million things to say about why it's something paranormal.

And again, I just think it's something very much missing for people, whether that's investigators or just someone experiencing something and trying to understand what's what's happening or or what could be happening.

9:32

It's about putting that information out there, I think.

It works on so many levels.

So you know, belief systems that people have, they have for a reason to protect themselves or to protect an ideology that they have.

And the same with sceptics.

9:49

You know, they they try to protect their opinion and protect their way of doing things.

And what I've learned sort of coming back into the paranormal recently or more actually when I, when I started Power Rationalise was I I was attacking left, right and centre.

10:05

I was, you know, going for these groups and going for these different people who are doing this methodology with no real understanding of the fact that of why they're doing it.

And over time I began to learn why these people, you know, were doing it and why they were relaying on their belief systems.

And and actually they feel it works.

10:21

So that's what they do.

And then this time when I've sort of returned after you know becoming a dad and and now I've finally got a bit of time to kind of come back into it is I've taken a much more open minded approach.

So I've been in the right in the middle of the believers and right in the middle of the paranormal community.

10:39

I I haven't islanded myself as skeptics tend to do because because they kind of feel attacked every time they they want to explain something or feel like they need to fight.

I've just kind of moulded openly and and become actually open minded to all different belief systems or different reasons like why these individuals might do things a certain way or or to understand their point of view and then have a a healthy debate backwards and forwards which always ends in this.

11:10

It's quite a lovely situation where where people go, yeah, actually, I see your logic there and the same for me.

I go, I see exactly why you're doing that.

And in the community it's it's been, you know, a bit like a war zone really, you know, and kind of who's right and who's wrong.

11:26

And this is the best way.

And this gets results.

And it's like, you know, a lot of people say the scientific community doesn't want anything to do with the paranormal.

It's like, well, actually a lot of the science that explains a lot of the paranormal just isn't labeled as paranormal.

You know, a lot of these journals and things aren't under the paranormal heading.

11:46

They're under psychology or they're under type of engineering or they're, you know, looking at electrical engineering in regards to what's it called, induced voltages and things in cables.

And you know this isn't paranormal, so we won't Google this or find this kind of thing out.

12:03

And for me as as a sceptic, it's really interesting to go into all those different fields and realise that there's something very normal that could be paranormal.

And actually, I get more excited when I find that than I do about finding probably something that possibly is paranormal.

12:22

It's about being better prepared, having more information, having a a fuller picture if you like.

And I think when you can then say, well actually this could be this or this or it could just be something as simple as this.

12:38

It means that if you then have something where it is really difficult to explain, that's the bit that then is, is the bit that you can really get your teeth into to try and understand what could be happening there and it prompts other investigation.

And I think you need to be able to have to have this kind of mindset and this knowledge.

12:57

I think that's the key thing to for this to be so much more inclusive and and these types of thinking coming together and these types of approaches coming together.

Because when you have that, I think you have a very balanced investigation that allows you to really get into the teeth of it, the nitty gritty of it and to really start to analyse.

13:18

And I think that is that is the key take away for me that investigating it is really truly about trying to analyse what's happening, the science of it, to understand the experience from a psychological perspective, from the perspective of the paranormal.

13:38

There's so many different lenses and and ways into that that you want to try and understand.

But it's more than what you just see of well, that's just a demon that's a ghost that's this.

And you know, it's trying to I think raise this up, you know, elevate this up because it's such an important aspect.

13:58

Like I mentioned a little while ago, it's the bit that just gets put out there and not really evaluated and shared and that knowledge given to everybody.

And I think so much of the problem is actually people just don't know about this and and that's not through any other any other reason that sometimes this knowledge is safeguarded.

14:22

And it's certainly.

Not put out there on most TV screens in the shows that they're watching.

And that's a problem.

That's a problem.

But that's what I I found with power rationalised.

So when the website was live, I'd have this big write up.

Say I was, I was talking about something that causes, you know, let's say like hit negotiate or something.

14:41

I was writing a piece on it.

I would write this super long piece about hit the gosha and then I'd have this super long additional reading list and the Super long references.

And I'll be honest, I I'm someone who likes to read, but I probably wouldn't have read that kind of medium.

15:03

Nowadays we like quick, simple, easy, you know, flash of information, interest in discussion, that kind of thing.

And that's why I started Kefka Paranormal where I started doing TikTok videos, because they're quick, they're easy, it's a quick explanation, there's no, no heaviness behind it.

15:25

It's a it's a thought process that people can take for themselves.

And it seems to be definitely the way forward in in kind of teaching individuals who are first coming into and I say when they're first coming into the paranormal because most people are very stuck in their ways.

But what will happen is those new investigators are coming through with better methodologies or better ways of doing things and slowly that will increase within the paranormal field and and and almost drown out a lot of the unethical behaviours and things that are within the paranormal.

15:55

So that's really why Kefka Paranormal has gone from power rationalised which was this big, you know academic as much as possible got to have references, got to show, show all your workings out to this is that you know this is caused by this and and kind of having those snippets of information and I hope that people will absorb them easier.

16:18

Yeah, bite size, bite size chunks can be really powerful I think.

And again, it's just, it's it's providing that information in different means in different ways because you know, someone who has that educational background, you know, we, we do absorb things differently.

16:34

We we have different ways of taking information, whether it's through hearing it, physically doing it, you know, seeing it.

I mean, there's just so many different ways that someone's brain is going to absorb that information.

Yeah.

And and like you said, you know, I'm someone that's an avid reader.

16:51

I love reading, but some of the material on some of these subject matters.

You almost need to have 10° behind you to get from 1/2 the book to the other.

That's.

Exactly.

It and so it is kind of being able to condense some of that into like like we've been talking about these bite sized chunks that makes it easy to digest.

17:14

And again This is why I think it's it's great to have the chance to talk to you and to to highlight some of that and some of the thinking behind what could possibly behind someone's haunting so that we can start to kind of really analyse what that could be, not just what it's assumed to be.

17:34

And so you know starting from that, from that premise, it might be kind of worth just kind of starting from very basic level in terms of you know what things could be in the home that the house itself the, you know, the the environment if you like.

But maybe we should be considering more as as part of that that process as an investigator or as someone maybe experiencing something if they're listening and they're having something that they can't explain that's happening in their own home so.

18:08

What I What I did on Power Rationalise because I used to always receive emails on a daily basis or or messages to people asking for help.

It was very difficult because obviously his unpaid position is voluntary and there's only a certain amount of time you can really put into it.

18:25

And I was met predominantly a residential investigator.

So I would deal with residential cases where either the teams have been in and been involved and done some damage or or someone had been in and made the situation 100 times worse.

And then I would go in kind of as a follow up.

So what I started to do is actually put a page up that explained the basics of like in a household what you might be experiencing.

18:50

So I would say before you contact me, please read through this section and and take a look at if these things match up.

So like for example TV turning on on its own.

You know when was the last time you changed the batteries on your remote control?

19:07

And it seems like the most ridiculous thing ever.

But if your batteries are dying and your remote control isn't receiving enough energy from those batteries, it can kind of glitch so it just send out a signal and all of a sudden your TV will turn on its own.

19:22

Also things like, is your TV situated near a window?

You know where it's to?

An open window where maybe someone else's remote control could be interacting with your TV.

Sounds like a strange thing.

Things like forgetfulness.

19:38

So you find did random objects have gone missing and they turn up in another place.

A lot of people say that's a poltergeist when actually we are so driven by the autonomy of our brain that our brain just lets allows us to to do all these things without really registering what we're doing and actually is that happening.

19:59

So is there age-related concerns there?

Is there a possibility that you know you're stressed or tired?

And you're not realising that you're you're the one actually moving things.

Or is there someone out in the house moving things?

So automatically people think, oh, I've got a poltergeist or they walk out of the kitchen, they walk back in and their cupboards open and they're like that.

20:24

That wasn't open.

And you think actually you you quite easily could have opened it, got distracted or been doing something and just walked out the kitchen completely unaware that you've even done it.

My messages dropped to about, I think, one or two a month after putting out that, like a list because it explained about the temperature changes in the house.

20:50

You know, are you here in footsteps upstairs as we're going into night time.

So depending on what time that's happening, and if so, why not lock it down every time you hear it, what time it is, what date it is, what you heard, where you heard it, and then again the next day and the next day.

21:08

And then all of a sudden at 735 each night, there's footsteps coming across the top of the house.

Well, actually that's the joists.

You know the the building itself is adjusting to the temperature change outside and inside and it goes across the joints joists which brought 600 mil separate, which gives you footsteps as they as they adjust into themselves.

21:30

So it's having that mindset and and allowing the person who's experiencing it to almost learn to critically think without saying you must critically think.

So electronics is a is a big one.

So people might experience kettle switching on on their own.

21:48

They might have a situation instead of TV's, stereos turned on on their own, Lights flicker in.

You know, when was the last time your electrics were checked in the house?

And genuinely there'll be more of an issue of that's quite an easy thing to fix.

22:07

But there could be a situation where you know, you have loose wiring or something somewhere where which is actually quite dangerous.

So at the same time, carbon monoxide detectors, do you have carbon monoxide detectors in your home?

Because those small amounts of carbon monoxide, they're not going to knock you out.

22:25

It wouldn't go, you're going to hallucinate things.

You're going to get confused, you know.

And if you're not in the house constantly all the time, you're almost in a situation where you're going to have those hallucinations like black mold creates hallucination, hallucinogenic effects if you're obviously living in those surroundings.

22:43

So that's another one that you've got to think about within the house is is it like, is the environment say in a terraced building or are you in a in a detached house?

Is there a possibility to the neighbours?

So my house, I know for a fact that but being an engineer and everything else that that the joists in my house are completely and utterly connected to the joists next door.

23:06

As in if they walk on their hallway it sounds like they're walking in mine.

And most people would hear that and go, Oh my God, and their footsteps are so loud And some visitors have said what was that?

And I'm like that's just, it's just the neighbours Because I'm aware of that and I can say, OK, I can see that happening inside the house is just one of those places that if if we feel safe, this goes more into psychological things, if we want to feel safe in our house and if we're in a situation where we don't feel safe.

23:34

So a very typical example of a residential investigation is someone usually who's lost their partner or you know a single parent especially who lives on their own.

They are, they are worried about the protection of their their themselves and their their children.

23:53

So psychologically all of these noises can become quite a big threat.

So they become scary and once they become scary, we have you know, issues with the films we watch and the TV shows we watch and that kind of stuff.

And and the whole idea of what a ghost is and then someone's going to be haunted.

24:09

The house that allows us to go really in depth into sort of psychological bubble of of stress and worry and panic and then we feel unsafe in our own home.

And then doing that and being unsafe in our own home makes those noises worse and more creepy and more worrying and kids hear it and they're like what is, what is that, You know it's like it's OK it's just that but if you're if you don't have that answer you become more creep type.

24:39

So just in that time I've managed to say the list of quite a few things that are quite normal but are considered paranormal activity.

And another one, photos coming off the wall.

24:56

Everyone has almost an ability to say it flew off the wall because I'm flying off the wall and it's like, did it.

And it's like, yeah.

And then it landed on the floor, like 2 meters away when in reality what they experienced was, you know, it fell, no doubt about it because you can guarantee by the time you notice it's falling, it's already near the floor.

25:17

And I probably hit the floor and slid or bounced or it's come quite far.

But really it's just a normal situation where, you know, it could be hung up there for for months on end and finally it's given out and it's, it's dropped off.

And those details of the memories that we have, it's like, oh, it flew off the wall.

25:34

And then instantly we change those details in our head to it flew.

And so that's why I say to a lot of people to write this when it happens, just write it down.

Just sit down and go, OK.

The picture flew off the wall.

OK, did it fly?

And they go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did it, did it fly?

25:50

I didn't just drop straight down and it went across the floor.

And they're like, well, I'm not sure it's because it's because we're not absorbing that information.

It's a flash fold memory.

And then we're just adjusting the details around it so that can bring people to believe even further that they're, you know, experiencing A haunting or a ghost or something paranormal.

26:14

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28:59

Now back to the supernatural stories you won't want to miss.

What's coming up next?

I think you bring up some really important points of very much the significance of the person involved in that and the info influences that.

29:19

You know, we all have.

You know, I think we're in some ways predisposed to that jump scare moment, if you like, which like you mentioned, heightens that fear.

I mean if we think about films like Poltergeist with the TV turning itself on and off you know it's almost you've seen it in this medium.

29:38

So therefore what you're you're experiencing is the same thing.

It's it's it's it's our brains connecting that you know the dot isn't it you know the the dots and and joining those things up and together and and that's natural.

It's a natural thing for us to do.

29:54

I think our brains do that.

We try to rationalize something and when we have these frames of reference points, which which makes it scary, which adds to that fear.

When you're already feeling uncertain like you mentioned, it just keeps accumulating, doesn't?

30:10

It.

Yeah.

It becomes a perfect storm.

And I did AI did a talk I'd say recently I think back in September for us up seriously strange conference and and what I did on was causes of a common haunting.

And one thing I mentioned in there was obviously the the way the brain works but what what affects the media has what we expect to happen.

30:35

And Alfred Hitchcock was the first filmmaker to really understand that if he can play with normal everyday situations it makes the film scarier.

Which obviously just blew up the the horror scene really was like wow we watched this film.

30:52

It's so intense.

It freaks me out.

But then also when I go home I'm in the same environment that person was in.

And in the talk I give an example of American whale for London where he's he's looking in the mirror which has got like a medicine cabinet type mirror and he opens the door and then as he closes it, something appears behind him And we get we kind of get almost generational with it that that's like a scary thing that can happen.

31:19

You know, so suddenly putting on your jumper and your your eyes are covered and you're kind of in a vulnerable position where you put in the the collar over your head and then suddenly you put it down.

There's something there.

Using, really cleverly using those psychological situations to make really good films and really scary films that make people jump have become so normal and commonplace that it's become such a normal thing in our own house to be able to imagine those things happening.

31:49

And if you're if you're vulnerable, especially if you're psychologically vulnerable, you can really fall into those situations where you become more and more scared in your own environment.

Many oh, I can't even think how many years ago it was now.

So I had AI was in a flat was in a two blood bed flat and the hallway in the middle had no outside lighting.

32:12

It was completely if you turn the light off it was it was pitch black.

So I used it as an opportunity to see if I could create a ghost, which sounds mad but this is just how my brake works and decides to do things.

But basically what I did is is I imagined an old woman at the end of the hallway by the front door.

32:33

So the reason I chose the front door is because that was the only exit from the flat.

So then it becomes more of a creepier situation.

So it's pitch black in this this hallway and I was finding myself like I'd rush to my bedroom door before the living room door closed because the bulb had gone.

32:52

And I thought I'm not changing the bulb because I'm going to use this situation.

And over time it took.

It was only about two weeks to start getting a horrible feeling when I went into the hallway.

And bearing in mind I'm doing this from a sceptical approach, but I'm trying to change my behaviour and my thought processes, using competitive behavioural therapy techniques to put myself in a negative position when I'm in there.

33:18

So I was scared every time I went into the hallway.

I think after about four or five weeks, was my first image of the old woman at the end of the hallway.

So at the corner of my eye there was an old woman stood at the end of the hallway and it was like absolutely terrifying.

33:35

But at the same time I knew the situation I was in.

I'd created this moment, but it goes to show just how malleable we are.

And it was such an interesting, I love to to do it again, but it was kind of one of those perfect storm moments.

I had this very dark alley that was like perfect for exactly what I wanted to do.

33:52

There's enough room from the living room door to the bedroom door to give me those couple of seconds of darkness to almost allow myself to be scared of the dark and then push into the door to get into the light again.

And it was so easily done.

And I was doing that consciously as well as subconsciously.

34:11

But a lot of people are just on a subconscious basis.

So it builds so fast and in a very small amount of time until people really experience, you know, someone said, oh, someone died here.

Oh, OK, you know, What do you mean?

Oh, so there was an old girl who lived there previous, you know, she passed away in the bed in the main room.

34:31

And it could be passing information, but that fits in your subconscious and grows.

Well, I think it it speaks to the power of the mind and how memories can be created, experiences can be adjusted based on on false memories and and and we can be conscious of that or unconscious of that.

34:54

And I don't think we necessarily understand sometimes the significance of us as human beings and how we react to situations.

Because, you know, when we think about the memories and the the emotions that really take hold, it's those powerful moments, those often moments of real terror or real joy.

35:12

You know, the the kind of the extremes that really stay with us.

But even if we think about how they get distorted over time, the things that we remember or we come to remember because we've changed it somehow, our brains do really funny things.

And psychologically, we can create scenarios so easily, like you said, just with these perfect things in place, happening, happening around us like a perfect storm.

35:41

And I think it manifests in all parts of our life.

I mean, what you're talking about is essentially the Philip experiment, but I think we do it in all kinds of manner of ways.

And you know, people will listen to this story, but I think it's another example of that how your own fears complain into something I've mentioned, I've mentioned on the podcast before.

36:00

The one thing I'm terrified of is heights, but the second is snakes.

They're the two things that are like my death knell.

I'm honestly petrified.

And when I was at university, the housing that I I had had kind of a garden area that wrapped around two sides of the house.

36:19

And you can imagine students.

The garden was rather overgrown and they were hedgehogs, so you'd hear rustling from outside a window in the grass.

I knew it was hedgehogs, but you know, as the grass grows and you're having to walk through this area to get out the back gate to go off to university, you know your brain starts to imagine snakes in the grass.

36:42

Stupid thought.

But then it becomes something that at night time you don't want to walk through or you don't want to walk through through the day.

And I worked myself up to such a point.

I couldn't walk through the back garden because I was convinced there were snakes that could be hiding, hiding in this long grass, when essentially it was just a, you know, a family of hedgehogs.

37:02

And I was terrified.

I was honestly, you know, just catapulted into this stratosphere of fear thinking there were snakes in the garden, which is ridiculous.

And I knew it.

But that's a brilliant example in the sense of a lot of people forget that, you know, we got, we got psychological and we have physical, so we so we have the real world.

37:26

What's going on?

And we can touch it, feel it, anything else and we have the psychological aspect, but they're they're two of the same.

So it's like you've got a situation where as you say, you're scared of snakes.

You knew in your conscious mind that they weren't there, but you still had a physical reaction because in in your mind you would believe in that there were snakes in there.

37:50

So it's if I somebody pushed you out into the grass, you would have went into full panic.

And I think a lot of people forget that everything we do is a meld over of psychological and physical from walking, breathing, talking, looking around with our eyes.

38:06

You know, they are commands that are sent from our brain and create the physical element.

So there's a thing called hyperarousal.

So it sounds like a very, very strange thing.

But it's when you get panicky like that and you begin to and like some people fall into anxiety attacks and things, other people just kind of, you know, sweat a little bit or just breathe and calm down and they're fine again.

38:30

But those physical elements are things that happen in, in paranormal situations.

So that panic that like sudden, oh, I need to catch my breath and my heart's going a bit faster or sweating or my palms are gone sweaty, that kind of thing.

38:47

It's called Hyperarizal, but it's it also begins to panic you because you think, what is something affecting me?

And especially if you if you believe in things like possession or you believe in like energy withdrawal from an individual to A to a spirit or whatever, you can instantly begin to believe that that's what's happened to you.

39:06

And it's the same with you when you think about the snakes and all of a sudden you're you're physically changing what you're doing, not only by not stepping in that area, but also from the the physical effects that are happening to you.

And it's, I think it's really important for people to understand that those two things, psychic, psychic, psychological and physical, are two of the same things.

39:33

It's just commanded by your mind and what you're thinking, feeling, or you expect to happen.

Absolutely.

Gosh, absolutely, completely, 100%.

And you know, again, I think you touched on something so important, which is again some of the influences that we have and and the things that the narratives that are put out there about attachments and all of this kind of this dangerous stuff that we should be frightened of.

40:00

It's almost like talking about the paranormal in the field is supposed to be something scary rather than just something that can be a normal rational conversation and.

And again, I think it's really counterproductive because I think it then generates this, this kind of fear and it's then like again, it's just this perfect storm.

40:21

And you know, I've been on many investigations with Bill and Sean, who are both part of the UK Paranormal Society and they used to give this really wonderful talk, which I think again sums it up.

And you can imagine Bill with his sense of humor as he has.

40:38

You know, he would talk about the wheelchair board and, you know, the perception that if you open things up, it's got to be closed down properly.

And people experiencing and feeling like ghosts are following them home and and then them looking for things to try and and and show that something's followed them home because they're frightened that you know, they're they're unsure.

41:00

And he always talked about the cat.

You know, if the cat looks funny at you after you've done a a paranormal investigation, it doesn't mean that the spirit's gone home and you know your home is now possessed.

If a cat starts peeing on the rug, I think is all that.

But I think it is that again it's we can so easily get into a fixed mindset that something is something without stepping back and going.

41:24

Hang on a minute.

Is it just because the cat needs XY or Z or, you know, my feeling, uncertain and unsure because of I'm tired, You know, I haven't been sleeping well, or my boss at work is giving me grief and I'm kind of stressed and anxious, you know, we don't start unpicking some of that.

41:46

And again, I think this is where, you know, you're saying things like documented.

Keep a journal.

Really keep an eye on your own emotional sense, your your feelings, what your what's happening at work, what's happening with your sleep, how tired you are way getting out and being with friends.

42:05

You know all of these things.

Alongside documenting also what you're experiencing.

I think once you start actually reflecting, you being able to put things down in that way, I think it enables you sometimes to see things with less of the emotion that keeps you in that state of hyper arousal of looking then.

42:28

So that anything you then see is something scary, because for the first time you may be starting to notice these things that you haven't heard in your own house.

Before for example.

Yeah, and it's it's it's funny that you use the the sort of the Ouija there.

42:44

Like I I did a post when I was doing power rationalise about the dangers of the Ouija board.

And I think a lot of people read it because they wanted to hear about demons and and all kinds of stuff.

And actually, the whole post was about the psychological damage to individuals who perform and use the Ouija board and why, You know, so it's exactly as you said you take away.

43:06

And as Bill said, you know, you, you, you walk away from a Ouija board believing there could be attachment or something's come through a portal or all of those things.

And what was important to me is the mediums do exactly what what Bill said, you know, is to explain that doesn't mean that's what's happened, you know, especially when you're dealing with the public because you can almost start a haunting for someone just by doing that, just by saying, oh, we're going to do a Ouija board, This would be fun.

43:33

And then they go home and and some people are very good at critical thought.

They can just kind of go whatever, you know, it was good fun, get on with it and not really think about it ever again.

And some people are quite fragile.

You know, some people were fragile mentally.

43:49

So the same way some people are fragile physically.

And that's not a digger anyone who is.

It's just we are very different.

Everyone is a different person and some people can go away from a a ghost hunt or an investigation or a public night and believe that Stumpkins followed them.

44:07

And it's one of those situations where it's.

I've been doing this 15 years and I wish they'd follow me because it'll save me so much money, you know, I can.

I can investigate in my own house then and it's like fine, happy days, you know?

But it's it doesn't happen.

44:25

It's not a thing that happens.

It is always a psychological aspects that comes from that hyper Arisal and being in that situation and you kind of it's important if you're in a position of authority when you're doing a public night or you know when we have a team, we know the team, they're there for that reason.

44:46

Some of them quite openly say they're not comfortable doing a Ouija war and you go, OK that's fine, you should ensure you don't want to.

It's not a problem or members of the public would be like I don't want to do it and they'll have a friend go, come on, you know you want to and it's being able to say to them, look you can do it, it's not a problem and I promise you you'll be perfectly safe.

45:04

I've done X amount of hundreds of them.

But if you want, once we're complete, I'll go through the logical aspects of what a Ouija board really is and I will discuss things like the idiomotor effect and and how you know these this information comes forward from the subconscious and all this kind of stuff just to ensure they don't go home negative.

45:26

You know they've got they they it's almost like adding them for the battle that their subconscious is going to give them when they get home.

I think that just comes full circle to what we were saying, which is, you know, all too often 100% of what people are fed within this kind of field, as entertainment, as films, as TV shows, as investigations that people might be going on, you know, nearly 100% of the time what people are getting is that psychological arming or well, it is only going to be this.

46:02

And again it comes back to what we were saying.

There isn't enough of highlighting.

Well, actually there can be other things at play.

Let's talk about those as much as what it could also be in terms of something paranormal.

It's it's kind of making both normal I think and and I think that's really important.

46:25

Because it's, I call it the fog.

I've always called it the fog.

It's paranormal fog.

And I sort of noticed it, especially when I came into the, into the like the actual practical field.

And it's it's a vast amount of information that comes from people, just it just thrown out there, you know, and it's things like when it comes to orbs and new people come in and they believe in orbs, so they start doing the same cycle that the previous people were doing, but they've now learned and moved on and so on.

46:57

And that's why I try and catch people when they first come into that.

I'd like to meet people when they first come into the field or they like try to traffic them through my information to say, look we we already know all this stuff.

You know this is the answer.

Let's look at the next steps.

47:13

You know what else can we we look at what can we we do differently But that that fog is just terrible because that fog grows on an almost daily basis.

And there's just, it's like a big it's like a great fire of London.

You know, and the the people who are already in the paranormal are the are the firefighters trying to put the fire out.

47:34

And it just keeps going and keeps going because it's it's one of those situations where people just keep throwing just any photo of any blip or any, you know, orb or a streak across the photograph or that kind of thing, throwing it out there, find a ghost, find a ghost, find a ghost, find a ghost.

47:53

And that information moves really quickly.

Whereas someone who is, say, doing it properly would would critically think, see that photo and say, oh, I can see that's a, you know, a slow shutter or whatever's going on.

And it it's, it doesn't even become paranormal.

48:10

It doesn't even start.

But I do.

I do find that that fog is almost impossible to fight.

And again, the only way I can find to change that is to filter people through that logical process into the paranormal.

Adding this other perspective because I I think it's a a field that is completely saturated with an awful lot of experiences that again with things like YouTube and podcasts like my own, there's so many platforms and means and ways that this now can become something that people can consume.

48:48

And in one sense, that's a great thing.

But in another sense, it does mean that certain things do just continually get replicated and put out there and it's trying to kind of, like you said, filter other things into that.

49:04

I think it's perfectly fine to have different voices within this community that helps to understand the bigger picture.

And for me, that is really what I would, I would want from the paranormal community and from the discussion is that it's OK to have different perspectives, it's OK to have different approaches, it's OK to have conversations.

49:26

That's which, that's what should be happening for this to be a truly healthy environment.

We can actually start to add things to what has happened before.

So we're not just doing the same thing all the time and thinking the same thing and putting out the same stuff, you know?

49:44

It's about really critically analysing all aspects, including ourselves and what we could be contributing falsely, inadvertently to what's happening or or being shared.

Yeah, so a really a really weird analogy, and it might be a bit odd for those who aren't into metal music.

50:09

And so within the metal community, I don't know if you ever seen in a metal crowd, they do a mosh pit and it looks crazy.

I wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't do.

It it.

Looks quite fun, but.

But it just is, you know, you think, you think, God, what are they doing they're going to like they're going to hurt each other like badly.

50:27

And anyone who's looking in from the outside of the the community and the the the scene looks at it and goes, they're hurting each other like how this is crazy.

Why would you ever do that?

But inside that, inside that mosh pit, there are, there are rules.

You're not going around punching everyone.

50:43

You're not thinking banks into each other.

And if anyone falls, everyone stops and helps each other up.

And like, there's a big camaraderie and love in this crazy pile of people.

That from the outside perspective is, is utter madness, you know?

50:59

And for someone outside of the paranormal, if they've even got an interest, you know, sort of like myself that went right on going out in the field, that's let's go and put all of this this breed into some good use to suddenly find themselves in that situation.

51:14

They're going to go in and they're going to go into the Moss bit and they're going to start punching people and fighting.

And it's like none of us are fighting, you know, none of us are doing like you don't.

You don't understand the circle you've walked into.

So if you're someone who have been watching YouTube, watching tik toks, watching various things on social media or or loving the paranormal TV shows and everything else, and you step out into the field with no real knowledge of what's going on, you become that person that stepped into the mosh pit and began fighting people.

51:48

And it's like, whoa, whoa, it looks like that's what we're doing.

But in reality, we've we've we've done that.

That's all.

Like we what we need to be doing now is you need to be following us who have rules and we have ways of doing things.

And you need to come in and rely on other people to to give you that message and understand that you you don't know everything about the paranormal because you've you've done all this reading or watched all these different shows.

52:15

You now have to find out what it is you want to achieve or want to do in the paranormal.

And part of the original UK Paranormal Society was, was being able to have all of that information at hand and almost be able to point people in the right direction and give people the right information and and try and almost clear that fog before we get in there.

52:35

And it's such a weird analogy, I know, but but that's what it reminds me of is that kind of, you know, misunderstanding for someone who is not in the paranormal to suddenly come in And then every time someone does, we've almost got to channel them and say, you know, come on, follow us this way.

52:55

And I still remember I sat with a Sony Handycam, night vision Handycam and an orb coming up on screen.

Oh bloody.

I was an orb.

Didn't believe in them.

But I saw one on the camera.

I was like, oh, I didn't expect to.

And you know, my expectation was, well, go to haunted location with a camera like ghosts.

53:15

You know, they're probably going to, if it happens is going to happen when in reality, you know, you could be sat there in 100 different locations and have absolute zero happen.

But people try to find it then and they go Oh well that that kind of bit of ghost or they want to do it for some attention or they want.

53:34

I suppose it's just a different objective of what they want to achieve.

No but I think it I think it's valid and I think it's also valid to reiterate the importance to kind of become involved and become aware of some of these these communities like the UK Paranormal Society like SBR ASAP and and other means like that because you don't get a guidebook you know you you don't get some of the the other types of messaging and and I think that's it's important to know that it is out there.

54:07

I think sometimes some of these groups could really put themselves out there in a way that helps people to know that they're there.

You know I don't I don't think they always do enough to shout and kind of dance and and do all the things that grab the attention and and get people to them.

And I think, I think that's sometimes something that gets lost.

54:25

They just quietly get on and they do it.

But what you've got is this fast moving machine, this fog that you mentioned that just yeah, it just takes over.

And so these fantastic groups that really are trying to disseminate information can sometimes just get lost.

54:43

They just.

Get overwhelmed and and you know dissolve and that's they're still working.

They're still go into these different locations but they just keep themselves to themselves or they they island themselves.

And it's something that we did with GPR.

You know it was kind of you know do we want to go out big on social media.

55:00

And so it's like not really we want to investigate and and do it that way.

So we kind of kept ourselves to ourselves for the majority of the time and and chose to island ourselves off and but we were quite lucky because we had such a mixture of brains involved in that.

55:16

But it was like me as a skeptic and and critical thinking.

Dwayne being very open minded, his his daughter Nag she was like quite a believer and she wanted to have an experience.

There was Rachel.

He was like a Wiccan and so it's like we had that backwards and forwards conversations you know with things and but stay in Ireland it was so much easier than facing the the traffic should I say of the paranormal which now is probably tenfold what it was then easily and it the likes of Travel Channel and and these these producers and things that want to make these paranormal TV shows and obviously they want the entertainment which is a given you know it is what it is.

56:01

But I truly believe there is a lot to be said about doing ATV show with an actual skeptic you know most haunted done it with Kieran and it seems to be a forgotten part of the entertainment.

You know people want to see ghosts and I've always said no they don't.

56:18

There's there's usually two people sat in that living room watching the thing and one of them one of them's usually the wife is really into the paranormal and the the partners sat there and and going no that's rubbish because of this that you can sell to both.

56:35

You could get you get 100% coverage by selling to both of those people sat on the sofa watching that that TV or that Channel to say OK this is what the the paranormal aspect is.

But actually, on a on a sceptical level, it could also be this, this and this.

56:53

And so many producers out there are petrified to say it could be this.

I mean, I I hope it's starting to change.

I think things like the success of uncanny where they they basically pitch it as that, don't they?

Team sceptic, team believer, you know, you've got things like that shows that Kate Sherell has been involved in with Jack Osborne, I think has helped to also put things like that across.

57:18

You know, I think we're starting to see some of it come through.

Corinne and the documentary with Guy Gilbert, My ghostly footsteps, all this kind of stuff coming out and being put out there.

I think it's just fantastic because again, it's it's just something else being woven into this really big picture that just allows you to see something a little bit different, this other approach, these other possibilities.

57:44

And again, all I'm saying is I don't think it's wrong to widen up the discussion, to open up the conversation and to look at things critically from different points of view and perspectives to really try and understand and further things on.

I think that's really beneficial.

58:02

And this is what I found, sort of, as I said, when I've come back into the paranormal, this time I I was a bit shocked by a comment someone made to me.

Whereas I fought wiggly and they said, oh, you're actually a really nice person.

And I was like, yeah, I think I'm lovely, OK And they said, no, I've always, I've seen you, what you do and everything else, and I like what you do, but but you seem really, you know, aggressive.

58:29

And I thought, oh, like, do I?

Yeah, but you're I was almost, I spoke to their heads, they'd seen me go into detail on topics and go in debates with people, you know fight a corner for things and almost thought it'd be very difficult to talk to me because I know it all, if that makes sense.

58:51

Or like I was a bit of a know it all but I don't know.

I'm far from and none of us really do.

You know, I just know of all these different theories and all these different, you know, ideas that come from the investigators regenerations.

But that doesn't mean I know everything at all.

And and so when I came back this time, I really opened myself up to the community and opened myself up to anyone can sort of turn around for you.

59:16

Actually, you're wrong.

And I say that's fine.

I'm like, why am I wrong?

And and you can argue with me if you want, but I'm not going to argue back.

I just want that discussion.

And I went to the Parameet from the Haunted Antiques Place up north, and they do the Parameet every year.

59:33

And it was lovely because I've been off for a long time and and I was up sort of more northern than I usually would and I didn't really know anyone and no one really knew me.

And it was, it was lovely because no one's persona changed on the idea that I was a skeptic.

59:50

So I was able to have these really open discussions about people's beliefs and what they experience.

And it was, it was amazing.

They were so people, so open because they didn't think I was automatically going to shoot down their theory or what they think because I no longer existed in the field.

1:00:06

It was, it was incredible.

And ever since then I've just been completely open to let's try it the same as if I go on investigations or anything else, as long as it's not residential because that.

As far as I'm concerned, there is a limit of what we can do regardless, because you're worried more about the individual's care than you are about finding any kind of evidence.

1:00:28

But if you're investigating a location, you know, public location in that sense to actually just go, yeah, we'll try that.

If someone could turn around and say I believe that SpongeBob Square Pants theme tune creates paranormal activity, there was only one way to test it, so let's do it.

1:00:48

Yeah, Let's try it out.

Let's investigate it.

Yeah.

And it's like and then after you know 3 hours of doing that and we say it's, it's made absolutely zero difference to any of the thing And and we can turn around and made our agreements to say good try though, you know maybe try another location if you want to, but it hasn't worked.

1:01:07

Yeah, here's some actual empirical evidence that we've got.

Let's keep adding to it.

You know, we still think it's a valid theory to keep testing.

Let's keep going.

Well, let's try adding something to it.

You know, again, it's that science aspect.

And and again I just think it's it's kind of coming back to that that it's OK to do that and it's OK to to have the debate.

1:01:31

You know, it's not about shooting someone else's ideas down and it's not about them wanting to return the favour like a jibe.

It's actually let's let's have this kind of round table approach of really knocking heads together and really kind of seeing what we can come up up with by investigating.

1:01:49

That's what it should be about.

Or it should be.

You know, cat balls was a big thing recently.

People using cat balls to try and, you know, get something to interact with them.

And, you know, people have a really strong opinion, pretty cat balls or whatever they want to say about them.

1:02:07

And some other people, like, I love them, I use them all the time.

And it's like I kind of sit on the fence.

I think they're mildly ingenious, you know, in a world where we're wow, like hundreds of pounds for a really simple piece of equipment just because it's used in the paranormal investigation.

1:02:25

You know, it costs £10 to make, but it's sold for hundreds and it's like in that world that it shows that the community are really thinking about what they can do because people can't shell out £300 for, you know, an obelisk or something like that.

1:02:41

But OK, let's see if this works and communicate and people start using them and because they're on camera and they're on YouTube or different things, people start buying them and then lo and behold, the price starts to rise.

But with cat balls it's wildly ingenious.

You know, you technically got yourself a motion sensor that was really quite sensitive and it sits there and if it could work as a trigger object or it could work as as picking up on very small minute vibrations from shouting and that kind of stuff.

1:03:10

And it has has a mass amount of flaws.

But the fact that that mindset's in place to actually engineer that and say, yeah, it might be a cat ball, but it's actually sensitive to touch and it's sensitive to the environment.

So can we use that to investigate the paranormal?

1:03:26

Well actually, yeah, you know a lot of controls to be put into place, but you can you can utilize that to see if something can communicate that way.

And that's the difference in my mindset now.

Whereas I used to kind of get on, get the sword out and everything else and and just go mad and say right, why are you using the cat board to investigate the parallel was ridiculous.

1:03:50

Whereas actually, if you think about it, and then on this logical sense is it's quite an interesting instrument.

It's cheap, it's easy to use, everyone can get hold of them.

But let's look at the controls.

Like one of the Tik toks will not come out soon is controls for the use of a cap ball, because there's things that set them off that that are normal.

1:04:11

So let's put some controls in place to see if we can stop that from happening, to see if we could get a result.

But yeah, sorry, I keep going off on nice little rants.

No, but I think it's, I think it's a perfect kind of tangent because again I think it highlights this, this missing part, which is there are all these apps and there are all these different devices.

1:04:30

And again they are shown quite freely in investigations, whether that be on the television screen or maybe if you're going out into say group investigation, a ghost hunt.

But actually, most people really don't understand how the devices work.

1:04:47

They're never really shown how to use them and the controls that should be put in place to really try and minimise some of the things that could be influencing it, it kind of doing what it needs to do.

And yeah, again, just not having those discussions of, well, how can you safeguard against some of that?

1:05:08

Are there other things that you can put into place that you can use to verify that experience or debunk what it is that you're seeing?

Again, we don't have those kinds of discussions and the information about how these things are made, Their flaws aren't really published.

1:05:25

And again, that just means if you're an investigator, if you're someone interested in the paranormal, you're missing a chunk of information.

Where do you get that from?

Where do you go for that?

Where is it?

You know, it's not easily something found.

And and again, that's part of the problem.

1:05:41

I think we see them being used all the time, but we're never shown how to use them.

It kind of is like my car.

I know there's places away how to put oil, but if you don't show me how they do it, I'm not going to know.

1:05:58

That's it.

Or when you need to and how you need to and all sorts for.

Years.

I didn't know where the dipstick was because nobody's showing me that, like can we please just make it something a bit more logical so that actually we are just better armed, we're we're kind of resourced better to do a better job, quite frankly.

1:06:17

I've always said it in the sense of so I've spent a lot of my career in construction you know and we in construction as a as a basic we need our CSCS card and that says that we're not competent or or experienced but we understand the basics of say health and safety on a construction site and it's a it's a it's a touch screen test and obviously ASAP do do their their investigator training and things like that but it's obviously get it's catching people when they first come in to go and go through the basic basics and I don't think there's anyone out there or any part of the UK paranormal Society was you know the idea of maybe giving training in the early early days before obviously requiring charitable status and things was like would it be not be good to give a basic introduction to paranormal investigation you know what these things are why EMF what counts as an EVP what kind of recorders what they could be or you could do a two day long course with someone with a genuine interest in the paranormal you could do an introduction to but like at the moment So these are two two things I live by and I'm sort of saying it now while I'm being recorded So that if someone is listening to this and they're interested in in joining the paranormal investigation.

1:07:43

Obviously the SPR, Steve Parsons, bless him, has written the guidance notes for investigators of spontaneous cases and basically it talks about like apparitions, hauntings, polar Geist, all that kind of phenomena.

And at the same time, So these are, this is like 9 LB I think like £9.99 or £15 for both books on the SP Rs website.

1:08:05

But they're not massive books.

They're not like, you know a big here's the guide to parallel investigation and slam it down on the table.

These are, these are, you know relatively small books, but they've also got the using equipments.

So again, it's all about apparitions, holding polar, Geist, etcetera.

1:08:21

But it goes through everything from recording to like recording Evps or what you do with your recorder and how it works, how the microphones work.

And it's it's smaller than most of the books in my in my bookshelf, and it's got the most easiest and simple things from choosing a What camera do you want to choose?

1:08:46

You know these all of this.

This information is there.

But again, it also comes down to these things like ASAP and SPR.

I learned about ASAP.

Bear in mind I was massively interested.

I know about the SPR because I always wanted to be on this spontaneous case committee since I was God knows what age and it's like I heard I read about it all the time.

1:09:06

It was like that was one of my childhood dreams.

So I've had offered since and not taken it up so but the SPR are renowned to be more academic and heavy.

A lot of their members are professors and that kind of they don't.

They don't really talk to the the everyday person who wants to be involved in the paranormal where the everyday passion should I say that you get from these individuals who you know have a hobby level interest but an intense personal interest.

1:09:37

So they're not going to be looking for these guidance notes or they're not going to be looking at the safe cycle research for that information as they begin.

It's the same with ASAP.

I heard about ASAP from one of John Fraser's books while I was actually in the field and I was like ASAP.

1:09:55

I've never heard of them.

And it was like, so then I'd I'd looked him up and was like, oh, OK, scientific study of a novel.

It's not fantastic.

You know, amazing exactly what I need.

And actually, they're not what they portray themselves to be as a lot of people think they're like all scientists in the lab.

1:10:11

And, you know, it's it's not that at all.

We're all just investigators with a very similar mindset who want to kind of investigate properly, you know, alongside like the Ghost Club.

The Ghost Club is like a social ghost club all about paranormal, you know, it's a lot more chill than you think and they have conferences and stuff.

1:10:28

So those those three are the main, you know, the main big three.

And then obviously got the UK Paradigm Society and there's various smaller societies as well around.

But how do we funnel the newcomers?

Because the newcomers are coming off of things like TikTok and YouTube.

1:10:46

Now how do we funnel them in the right direction to go?

Here is the basics and that's why I want to do.

I've got lots of videos on my tik toks where it's like introduction to the paranormal and it's four points really quick, bang, bang, bang, it's like this.

It's like this and it's like that.

1:11:01

And then there's a Part 2, Part 3, introduction to the Estes method, introduction to region boards, whatever.

You know, thing that that people can look at really quickly and go, oh, that's a good idea and then that's all they need to do and it it makes it easier to digest that information and almost become a pretty good investigator in a very small amount of time.

1:11:27

And how do you make those types of conversations attractive, you know, sexy, whatever it is, that means they're going to go to that.

Because let's face it, they're going to, they're going to the information that is the the stuff that's viral, that is, is being mass consumed.

1:11:47

And and again, it's knowing that this stuff is is also easily accessible.

You mentioned great books, they're available through the SBR, You can easily get them on Amazon, you can get them in your bookshop if you wanted to.

These things aren't being kind of hidden away from you, from from you as the public.

1:12:06

You got to know that they're there and.

That and that's it.

You know, like like with ASAP, ASAP are quite renamed in that sense.

There's obviously the individuals haven't heard of them but you know I had to read a book by I didn't know John at the time.

I'm good friends with John May but at the time I didn't know John and I just happened to pick up a a book about ghosts and Hamptons and it was with John's and it was like oh, and then I met him actually at ASAP and it's like I had no idea about that.

1:12:34

But then that's because I still have a bookshelf in my living room and I still read books as no matter people who don't read anything actually surprises me.

And and I find it quite strange that people don't.

But at the same time, it's so arduous and can, in comparison to looking for YouTube or TikTok or reels on Facebook or just absorb that information relatively rapidly and just carry on.

1:13:01

Like I can understand why people would do it.

And that's one of the reasons I've moved from, you know, academic type writing to pretty quick videos and trying to make them as entertaining as possible.

Trying to make them balanced so they're not too believerish or they're not too sceptical, you know, they're just in between and and make it a bit more fun, which is actually more difficult because it's not the the reality I think of the paranormal is is a bit more boring than the than what people think.

1:13:31

And people just want to see the ghosts.

I want to see ghosts.

I want to see ghosts.

I've got some fantastic footage of of apparent apparitions and things and Evps, but I can't be sure that they're ghosts.

I can't be sure of the reality of them.

So I don't really share that kind of thing publicly, even though I know people will eat it all up.

1:13:51

And so it's just, it's just one of those situations where people want to see a ghost and it's like, OK, if you want to see a ghost, that's fine, go on a public event.

And I know of public events that put on a show, and I know public events that the 100% won't ever do it.

1:14:07

And you know, if that's what you want to do and you want to experience a ghost, that's fine.

But don't start a team and start going around, you know, into these locations and messing around and thinking you're going to sort of see a ghost after 20 minutes of being in a haunted location.

1:14:24

You know, if it was that easy, we'd be bored of it by now.

But it is one of those where if you're in it for the passion you, you're going to find the SPR.

Maybe slowly you're going to find different contacts and different people and and and different pieces of knowledge.

But I think from the TikTok generation, there's money in it.

1:14:43

You know, there's money in in in finding a ghost.

Whereas for me, on an ethical level, I can either go one in knowing what a hoax is and in knowing how these things are done, I could create, it's done incredibly realistic, you know, apparition videos or EVP S and all that kind of stuff.

1:15:04

And I could use my reputation as a skeptic to be like, Oh my God, like we've actually captured what we believe to be a ghost.

And this is how we've covered it.

And this is how we know that that's exactly that.

And I could have, you know, 100,000 followers by by the next morning.

1:15:21

But because ethically, I love the paranormal and I love, I love the idea that there is a true fight there, you know, for me, I will always remain on that.

You know, let's do this properly.

Let's find the truth.

But there's so many people out there who were just, you know, they're happily set up some wires and strings and receive a whole load of money from multiple followers and all of that.

1:15:45

Which just adds to our fog situation.

Yeah, absolutely.

And and I also think there is an element of people like to fit in and belong.

And if there's something that's current and trendy or, you know, again unintentionally, you can get wrapped up in that.

1:16:02

And I think an example of that is to do with things like, you know, there was a huge thing about Black Eyed Children and, you know, these figures.

Kind of chase thing.

Yeah, but also figures at the end of the bed.

If these black form figures when someone's asleep, you know sleep paralysis type moments and I think it did it.

1:16:23

It kind of created this mass.

I mean there was a while there, there was a good couple of years where all you heard about was Black Eyed Children and but again no science, no discussion about well, what could they be experiencing in terms of their sleep patterns that could be explaining that that's that sensation of feeling like something sitting on their chest and they can't move or seeing something at the end of the bed.

1:16:50

I mean these are centuries old.

If we look at mythology and we look at the hag and the variations around the world and how how frequently this has been discussed in various forms and associated with ghosts and other phenomena, you know, let's talk about that.

1:17:09

Let's really kind of go into some of that and the insurance and outs.

But for some people it it can be something they hear, something they see and then again they just then tie tie those two things together and it becomes fact.

This is what I'm experiencing.

1:17:26

And again we go down that whole cycle of well then it becomes even scarier which perpetuates the problem and it becomes the server going cycle again with the lack of discussion around it and understanding and knowledge of the what could, what is happening, what they are experiencing in some cases.

1:17:45

And this is what I find with when you speak to somebody who who suffers with C paralysis and have done for most of their lives, it's not a paranormal situation at all.

You know, they they know and see and obviously experience what they see, but they know what it is.

1:18:03

And so it becomes actually less of a a scary situation that blows out of of proportion because they experience it all the time and they have a full almost medical understanding of what's happening to them.

But but sleep process can be brought on by stress and lack of sleep.

1:18:22

You know, let's all face it, we none of us have the perfect life.

Sometimes in our lives dealing with going to work becomes a chore, you know, or you know, having to go into a shop can become an anxious situation and but other times we can walk into the shop perfectly fine.

1:18:40

It's exactly the same with sleep paralysis.

We could just experience it.

I think I've experienced it probably about three times in my life, all in, you know, stressful situations or or when I've got sort of a lot of work on and I'm not sleeping too well and it builds up over time.

1:18:57

But when you experience it and you know it and you understand it, it kind of isn't an issue.

It's just one of these really like, oh, that was a moment.

But for individuals who suddenly experience it, I have nowhere.

There's no other real explanation really to the logical mind that Oh my God, I've woken up and there's, you know, something stood on my chest or as you say, depending on the depending on the background.

1:19:23

So like in America, there's a lot of abduction sort of scenarios that people are being abducted by aliens, you know, And The funny thing about the the amygdala, which is what it's causing causing the sleep paralysis, is it it creates while that situation is happening, it creates a hug noise in the back of your head.

1:19:44

So the majority of people who stuff from sleep process will say that there was a noise and part of that hum noise becomes the spaceship to a lot of these these US kind of experiences because they can hear the hum of the spaceship in the background.

1:20:00

It's not as your amygdala, you've overactive amygdala that you can almost hear in the back of your head, which gives you that kind of that that happens while it's happening.

And also it's terrifying at the same time, that noise, it's very odd because it it almost, it's almost like a horror film where someone's playing an off keynote in the background, you know, it builds that kind of fear.

1:20:24

But when you think about situations like the old hag, so the old hag was has been a scary sort of past thing for a long time.

You know the old witch lives on her own and all those kind of things sort of back right back in like the 50s and the 30s and so on.

1:20:40

I know even into Victorian times.

Go back to medieval times again the the witch and the old hag and that kind of thing like people experience in this this old hag is down to again the cultural belief system at the time and the same as the shadow man.

1:20:57

So.

So seeing the man in the hat and the cloak, you know that's more sort of around the 70s and 80s and it it becomes more about fear.

And actually if you look at say pictures of Hitchcock, so you look at those, you know the the Hitchcock thing where it's got a silhouette of him with his hat and that is kind of that's renowned within horror at the time.

1:21:25

So all of a sudden people are seeing this shadow figure, he's wearing a hat and you can't see his features, it's just black.

You could see the traces of of the culture at the time working its way into the subconscious and then coming out in that sleep process of situation where the subconscious is projecting those fears forward because you are dreaming but you're also awake.

1:21:48

And for the individual is is terrifying and it's 100% real.

And I I want any investigators sort of listening to this to understand that if even the skeptic like the hardcore skeptics and things you have to understand that that individual has experienced something which they believe to be paranormal.

1:22:07

It doesn't matter what your opinion is or anything else or what what it was.

That person experienced that situation.

They felt that situation they were terrified by that situation.

Like that is a that is a psychological and physical thing that's happened to them, and you have to respect that as a good investigator.

1:22:25

But it's honestly it's so valid.

And yes, again I just, I don't think we, I don't think we kind of think enough about these cultural belief systems.

And again, just the power it can have on individuals in circumstances, how it can filter through into experiences like sleep paralysis or just in terms of that, you know an individual's psyche.

1:22:51

And you know, there are really tragic examples of how some of these really deep set cultural beliefs, like the the hat man that you that you mentioned, how that's then become something that's influenced young teenage children who in some cases have had, you know, a psychological break to do terrible, terrible things.

1:23:15

You know, to I mean, there's a case I know of where two teenage girls, one who clearly had a psychological diagnosis that was undiagnosed at the time, but they murdered a friend and they were teenagers and they were completely embedded in that thinking of the the, the hat shadow figure that they've been experiencing and they've worked.

1:23:37

The Slender Man one.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's just you just think, again, it's it's kind of that's an extreme version and an extreme example, but I think it shows just how we can all be very much influenced by some of those those cultural beliefs and things that are there.

1:23:58

And again, it's part of the human condition to try and fit in to what is culturally around you, that's part of your community.

And if you're surrounded by people who think and believe in those things, you do too.

You know, it's very easy to.

It's that simple.

1:24:14

I think people forget that, you know, even on a caveman level, that because we've evolved so rapidly, so rapidly over over a few centuries that our brain hasn't evolved with us.

We still.

1:24:31

What we forget is things like we need community, we need friends around us because our subconscious requires that.

Because if we don't have people around us, we could not survive on our own in the wild or or in a situation.

1:24:47

You need community and you need people around you to remain safe.

And almost this generation, we've created a fake and almost false sense of that through social media and this ability to communicate really quickly, you know, media now, to talk to you.

1:25:05

Now I've got Airpods on on an iPad and I'm nowhere near the iPad and I've got both hands free like this time 20 years ago.

People will be like losing their mind.

But how is that even possible?

Our brains can't keep up with that.

And what we end up with in these belief systems, One, they move really fast, really fast.

1:25:26

Even comedians these days really struggle to keep up with the requirement for new material all the time, because people just ingest it rapidly, you know?

And it's the same, the same within, like horror films.

They've got to be more scary and they've got to be more deluded and more gory and more everything.

1:25:44

So we're we're kind of absorbing all of that and then we're developing an almost resistance towards it.

So it doesn't bother us too much on a very conscious level.

Our subconscious is still able to to absorb all of that.

And as I said about those girls, the idea that Slender Man could be talking to to say one of them, but one of them having the authority over the other, it doesn't matter about what the other one thinks, the other one just wants to be accepted.

1:26:15

So she's just going to go along with whatever they say.

And the same with the whole paranormal community.

If you are an investigator who has 20,000 followers, people are going to go along with what you say.

And with that comes, as far as I'm concerned, comes responsibility to do things right and ethically and everything else.

1:26:35

But people like myself, I'm never going to have 20,000 followers.

I'm fully aware of that because of the way I come across and and the fact that I also take into account the ghost might not exist.

I'm not entertaining and not any of those things, but so I have a little bit of a followed, which is lovely.

1:26:54

And I have the platform, which is great and I'm fine with that.

But to the next generation of investigators that are coming through, it's who can get the most followers as fast as possible who can?

Because the more followers you have, the more community you can build.

The more community you build, the safer you feel.

1:27:10

And it's just this kind of utter madness that's going on where these, these individuals who come in are quite happy to go so against the grain of the right way to do things that it all kind of falls apart.

And This is why I think it's, again, it's so important to have these kinds of conversations and to make people aware of other people and what they're doing and what they're thinking and what they're sharing, so that people can maybe discover something different.

1:27:41

And you know, I will make sure to absolutely put all of your details in the podcast description, notes, etcetera and on the website so that people can come and find you.

Because you know again it's it's small things, it's small changes, it's it's being observant to these differences and and different thoughts and there's no right or wrong way.

1:28:02

I think that is the key, the key take away.

One person isn't necessarily wrong and the other going to be right.

It's OK to have debate, OK to have different opinions.

We're going to learn by working together as opposed to working separately and and that's just my personal approach and my personal thinking.

1:28:21

So you know, I I really appreciate you coming and sharing some of your knowledge and your insight and your perspective.

It's, I think it's really helpful for people listening to understand the wider picture, yeah.

It's no problem at all.

I'd like to.

1:28:38

I think I'd like to.

I'll take every opportunity I can, really.

Because I think we could make a massive difference in the paranormal community, right?

And a massive difference into research and finding the truth.

Whether whether that is that ghosts don't exist and it's all a human aspect, or actually ghosts do exist in whatever form they might do.

1:29:03

Yeah, how can we brief at all?

How can we get at least some more information?

That's that's what it's all about for me.

So honestly, thank you so much for your time.

It's been such an enjoyable conversation.

You are welcome back anytime to talk about any aspect because it's honestly I I've just been enjoying chatting with you, so I hope other people listening will gain something from the conversation.

1:29:27

Really.

Yeah.

I think it's crafts and absolutely love to talk about the paranormal so.

And maybe what you need to do is, I don't know, Pink 221 Tiana.

Whatever it's going to take.

Let's make it happen.

1:29:42

We'll get you going viral.

I'll do anything God.

That would be entertaining.

It would be, there's no doubt about it.

I'll probably never live a dying but.

Don't forget to throw in a cat though.

1:29:59

Somewhere, I'm sure, Bill, of course.

And get it to pee on your rug.

Like anything you know, just suddenly appeared.

But oh, the cat in this one.

I like it.

Well, you know, they are.

They do attract people.

Cats and dogs.

You've got cat a day, you know, all of this kind of trending stuff.

1:30:15

So yeah, but again, it's it's the ridiculousness of, you know, again, agendas and motives.

But we're making fun of it.

But it's it's part of the problem that's.

It that's that's the.

Issue.

Honestly, it's been so much fun talking with you and I will say goodbye to everybody listening.

1:30:35

Bye everybody.