Ghosts Of Frost And Fire: Shropshire’s Winter Spirits With Amy Boucher

Transcript

0:31

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:47

Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

1:17

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1:40

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2:01

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge.

Because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:22

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where the veil between the past and the present grows thin and the stories of old come back to life.

Tonight, as winter's chill creeps into the air and the days grow shorter, we gather around the hearth to explore the ancient traditions of the darkest season.

2:44

Long before the warmth of Christmas lights and festive cheer, our ancestors told tales of spirits, devils, and the supernatural, of restless souls and sinister forces that stir in the long, cold nights of winter.

3:02

In this special Yuletide episode, I'm joined by folklorist and historian Amy Boucher, who will guide us deep into the eerie heart a Shropshious winter folklore.

Together, we'll uncover the forgotten superstitions, chilling ghost stories, and devilish legends that haunt the holiday season, exploring what it is about the dark months of winter that brings out tales of spirits and figures like Old Scratch from the shadows, we'll explore how these ancient traditions reveal the fears and beliefs of people living in the harsh, unforgiving winter landscape.

3:42

So grab a warm drink, settle into the glow of the fire, and prepare for a festive journey into the haunted traditions of the winter months.

From the phantom apparitions said to appear on Christmas Eve to the devilish figures lurking in the shadows of Shropshire's countryside, we'll explore the region's rich history of storytelling and ask what these tales can tell us about the Yuletide season and the human fascination with the unknown.

4:12

This is your guide to the dark side of Yuletide.

Hi, Amy.

Thank you so much for joining.

Me again on another podcast.

Thank you for having me, I'm so excited to be here.

4:30

And it's been a while since you've been on.

Do you want to just reintroduce yourself to everybody listening and maybe give an update as to what you've been up to?

Yes, of course, my name is Amy Boucher.

I am a writer and folklorist who specializes in Shropshire folklore.

4:47

So the area of Shropshire and I tend to write for my blog, which is a nearly knowledgeable history, as well as in things like Haunted magazine.

Since I was last on I've been busy at home and I wrote an audio drama about the Satanic folklore of Shropshire and I'm currently, among other things, writing a book about the Satanic folklore of Shropshire.

5:12

So definitely keeping myself busy.

And do you want to just maybe go into that a little bit more in detail?

Because obviously Shropshire is very rich in folklore and superstitions.

And you know, this time of the year, with us being in the winter period, Yuletide traditions, are there any unique folklore superstitions to the region?

5:36

Certainly.

So there is a number of practices in Shropshire that's very much linked to the Christmas period, kind of the 12 days of Christmas, which in Shropshire is known as the Christmas.

But as well as that, there's little kind of beliefs and also some folk stories which I'm sure I'll go into at some point.

5:58

But certainly I think one of the things that's most important to know about that probably would mirror in other areas as well, is that there is an awful lot of emphasis of the Christmas period being a time of sharing the fruits of the earth with the poor, which is a quote from Charlotte Byrne.

6:19

And the idea that this period is a time in which you help those who may be a less fortunate than yourself, which even today I think is as relevant as it it ever was 102 hundred years ago.

And often it involves some form of alms giving or begging or kind of ritualized begging that's kind of like Morris dancing or sort of similar things you'll see on All Saints and All Souls Day.

6:51

So what role then do you think that superstitions play in Shropshire, you know, for the Christmas traditions and how are they shaped the way that people celebrate the season?

So I think there's a tendency to look at superstitions as being inherently bad or inherently kind of unintelligent, and I think we simply don't do the inhabitants of the past justice by looking at it like that.

7:20

Certainly in Shropshire, as with elsewhere, these ideas, these superstitions, these stories, they come into play to fill in a gap left by uncertainty.

So that's any time of the year.

I think when there is something that people are uncertain about, they develop ghost stories or they develop devil narratives or folklore or also protective ways in which they can look after themselves and look after other people.

7:51

And I think that's very much the case with the kind of the begging tradition is it was a way in which you could protect and look out for someone without doing it.

You know, no one wants to be the person that goes round to the name and goes, oh, hey, here you go.

8:06

And the idea of offending or the idea of kind of, you know, pride comes into it.

But if there's an an actual tradition.

Do you have any examples of those kinds of traditions?

Farmers in Shropshire would make sure that they'd set aside a sack of wheat or whatever kind of crop they had.

8:26

And there was different days of the year, the year where you would you would go Tomasin and clog fair day near Clod.

But it was a way in which people could help each other and a way in which people could ensure that there was no lack of food or lack of support during that time.

8:44

But also you find in Shropshire there's little pieces of folklore associated to food.

So for example, in the 12 days of Christmas, mince pies are actually really lucky.

So for every mince pie you eat during the 12 days of Christmas, you're said to gain a month's look.

9:05

So you know, the best thing you can do is absolutely loads of them and stock it up for the next couple of years.

My mother would love that one.

She loves her mince pies.

I think she starts buying them in like November like right when they 1st come out and she doesn't stop until they're off the shelves.

9:23

Basically, they are one of her favorite things when it comes to Christmas time, so I will pass that one along because that's hysterical.

She's definitely getting her looking.

Absolutely.

Are there any other, you know, thinking about just what you were referencing, are there any other specific beliefs about good or bad luck during the Christmas season that are still remembered or practiced in Shropshire?

9:46

So there were certain things that were meant to be very unlucky.

So we're talking at a time when a lot of these folk beliefs that I'm going to be discussing come from kind of the 18th, 19th century.

We'd had the advent of industry in areas such as the Shropshire coalfield where I'm I'm from, now known as Telford.

10:09

But a lot of Shropshire was still very agrarian.

So there was certain folklore that was very, very attached to animals, to farmyard kind of jobs and that kind of thing.

So, for example, during the 12 days of Christmas, we'll see this quite a lot, how important the 12 days were.

10:29

But during the 12 days of Christmas, farm animals should be rewarded for their hard work, which I think is lovely.

They should be fed with extra portions of food and kindness, given kindness.

But also, you shouldn't use your horses or whatever animal you use to plow to plow during the whole day, 12 days.

10:50

So I don't know whether that was just kind of because there was less work to do during that time or potentially even that it was an excuse to have a little bit longer off work.

But it was seen as very unlucky to plow using horses during the 12 days of Christmas.

11:06

If you did that, you were inviting kind of good luck into your life.

And also if you were not willing to look out for the animals and you were not willing to show them that kindness, it was deemed unlucky as well.

And similarly with staying on kind of animals is that it's said in Shropshire folklore, I think it's first mentioned kind of in the 19th century, is the idea that all of the cows are midnight on Christmas Eve.

11:37

They are very pious cows.

It's one thing that you should know.

And they will be found at midnight on Christmas Eve on their knees in veneration of Christ.

So that might be something that is quite fantastical and that you'd quite like to see, but it's actually very unlucky to do so, because if you happen upon these cows and you see them in that active veneration, you could actually risk going blind or having bad luck before you.

12:05

So that's another thing that's kind of very much linked to the idea that there's these fantastical things going on that are linked to animals.

I get the idea.

It's probably linked kind of Jesus in the stable and that kind of thing.

So how do traditional Christmas customs in Shropshire maybe reflect those ancient Pagan or pre Christian beliefs about the changing of the seasons and the and the winter solstice?

12:31

So there's there's two strands I think to Shropshire folklore.

There is an awful lot of our folklore is very, very recent.

I'm an ex medieval history, not I still love it, but at home.

So when I talk about recent, it's probably not like the 70s.

12:48

It's it's just not the medieval period.

So a lot of our folklore in Shropshire is kind of 17th, 18th and 19th century in origin and then continuing into the 20th century.

But there are things that feel very symbolic and feel very linked to a older kind of pre Christian idea.

13:11

So for example, there's the idea of the kissing Bush, which was a bunch of evergreens and mistletoe that were kind of brought into the house.

And you've got all the symbolism of mistletoe and Evergreen plants that are linked to kind of the holy king.

And those kind of ideas and things probably that are even more pre Christian that we we don't have a name for anymore.

13:32

And as well as that, I think even things like the ritual of cleaning, we are the in Shropshire, you have to clean your house completely before Christmas.

And that's head, head to toe, top to bottom, Even things like cleaning the pewter to make sure that everything was clean and was, was cleansed.

13:56

And I think it kind of links to that idea of not only like spring cleaning and, and, and deep cleans, but it's an idea of cleansing the household and anything negative in order to bring forth the new year.

And even things like we, we are told in certain references that if you don't clean the house properly, it could invite witches into it.

14:20

And you know, if you anger the household spirits, the brownies, they will be bringing bad luck.

But if you please the household spirits and brownies and anything else that dwells in your house, they will actually protect you and they'll protect the house during the most really the most spiritually vulnerable time of the year.

14:42

And as well as that you've got again, you've got ideas around the Holly being very lucky.

Holly and Ivy was collected in abundance, probably not always legally.

And they were stuck everywhere from kind of, I think it's in Charlotte Byrne, we're told from the window panes to the candlesticks.

15:02

And this mistletoe was meant to be preserved and left in the house and only to be replaced the following year.

And that served as a token of good luck for the household.

So even though there's not as many obvious pre Christian kind of ideas, and a lot of our stuff does come from a lot, lot later, there are things that I think always have the same symbolism.

15:30

Holly and mistletoe has the same symbolism.

The idea of cleansing is very symbolic and will have always been symbolic, so I certainly think those pre Christian ideas are a little bit harder to find in Shropshire than other places, but once you start to peel away you start to find them.

15:52

And obviously you've you've touched upon already how you know winter is very much a season often linked with with ghost stories.

Could you share maybe some of the traditional ghost stories that Shropshire has or legends told during the Christmas season?

16:08

Yeah, of course.

So Shropshire has some stories that are linked to, we're told either the Christmas period or dark winter's nights or the the sort loosely allude to Christmas.

16:24

What we do have, which I'll, I'll sure I'll share a little bit later, is a lot of devil stories that are actually very, very linked to the Christmas period.

But one ghost springs to mind that is said to haunt on Christmas Eve.

16:40

And it's, it's sadly right, quite a, a sad tale.

So there's a village just kind of outside Bridge N called Alverley.

And in Alverley there was a hall called Cotton Hall and one Christmas during the Victorian times a young boy, sadly we we never told his name, was gifted a very lovely present for Christmas.

17:10

He had been obsessed with horses since he was even smaller than he was and he loved the animals, so much so that his mum and dad actually bought him a fine, magnificent horse in order to celebrate Christmas.

17:26

But the problem is with a horse is you can't exactly hide it under the Christmas tree or you know.

So when he was delivered, they decided to let him have it early.

So they gave him the horse on Christmas Eve.

They told him that it was too late to go out riding, but in good time, after kind of the festivities of the next day, they would allow him to go out riding.

17:52

But sadly he was quite an impetuous young man.

He was quite impatient and he decided to set off on his horse.

The poor boy couldn't see where he was going, it was quite dark.

It was one of those cold winter's nights and there was an accident which caused him to sadly break his neck and pretty much die on impact.

18:14

And we're told that his ghost still rides out every Christmas Eve at midnight.

A reminder of his impatience and also his kind of his plight, I suppose.

18:29

And even though I've not been able to find any kind of concrete examples of this happening, I think it's very much cautionary tale.

I think if there wasn't a little boy where something like this happened, certainly it would be used as, oh, we know we need to be patient and don't you go rushing off that kind of thing with all these stories.

18:52

There's an element of truth or there's there's an element of truth somewhere.

But certainly I think that one would have been used as a a cautionary event.

As well as that we've got stories that are more linked to the darker months or the build up to Christmas, such as the Hodnik ghost, which I'm very fond of.

19:15

And Hodnik is kind of in North Shropshire.

It's a little bit further away than Alderley, but it's it's North Shropshire and we're told it all centres around a pub.

I think he's still called the Bear.

I'm not, I'm not entirely sure that's, that's something I should have checked.

19:34

And we're told that a man visited quite often.

He visited quite often every year.

He was a rich, well, in some stories he's a rich kind of Welshman.

Which seems more likely being where it's set.

19:50

But in one account that I found from kind of the middle of the 1800s, he's actually a Danish man.

So I don't, I don't, I don't know whether he's Danish or whether he is actually Welsh or whether it even matters.

But he's said to have been a really quite wealthy man.

20:07

He's said to have been a businessman and he often travelled through the area in order to get down to London and to spend his his money do.

Trading stocks or whatever rich, wealthy men do in London.

20:23

And he always paid handsomely.

He always bought everyone around of drinks and the locals, even though he was, you know, not from around here, the locals actually really quite liked him.

I think it's probably because they they liked getting drinks from him, but they certainly enjoyed his company.

20:46

Now we're told that on one cold winter's night, just as the landlord was locking up, they got a knock at the door and it was the man, the Welshman or the the Danish man, and he begged to come in.

21:04

He he looked cold and dishevelled.

The wind was ripping around him and he told the man that he'd been robbed on his way to London and he had sadly nowhere to stop.

He had nowhere to sleep for the night.

So the landlord had a very difficult choice.

21:21

He it shouldn't have been difficult, he should have let the man in.

But sadly he didn't like the fact that he had no money.

And he said to him, well no, you're not coming in, if you can't pay for a room, you're not staying here.

So he sent the man out.

21:37

He was found the next morning, throws him to death just outside the building.

But the strange part of it is, we're told that at the exact moment that the poor man was in the freezing cold, the landlord fell down, clasped his chest and died of fright.

22:00

Now we're told that his ghost isn't a vengeful ghost.

The landlord doesn't haunt the building, but the visitor.

He isn't vengeful, he isn't cruel, he still goes to the pub and he's still seen at the bar often paying his way as he did in life.

22:19

So we get several stories that add different layers on.

You've got the the cautionary tale about not rushing into things and not travelling by horse back on night.

But also I think the hard knit story tells us how well it tells us two things.

22:36

It's you've got the the danger of travelling on cold winter's nights and not being able to find kindness, but also the importance of kindness that if there is someone struggling, there is someone who needs that extra bit of support is that we should help them.

22:53

Which of course, very much ties into what you've been Speaking of in terms of, you know, these traditions, giving alms at this time of the year, being kind at this time of year.

And of course, very much here you have a story where that is central to part of the message that this was a man seeking kindness at a time of need and didn't receive that.

23:17

And the consequence of that being that then the landlord also suffers as a result.

So you can see a somewhat a clear message there, can't you, in terms of something to learn from that type of encounter and that type of story?

Oh, definitely.

Yeah.

And the thing I think is interesting is that we're told with, if we go back to kind of the clog, fair day and the dole, the the taking of doles, the giving of arms, we're told that there were people that actually really took advantage of this.

23:46

So like, for example, women would put on their oldest tatiest clothes.

Some of them would even wear their husband's clothes to heighten their illusion of poverty.

And some would go to the more well heeled areas because they knew they'd get more dole.

24:03

But there seems to be obviously people would have grumbled.

But there seems to be an idea that it was better to actually give people and to help them, even if they were taking advantage a little bit than it was to let them suffer.

Which I think really shows quite a sophisticated understanding of the level of poverty that people were in.

24:26

And also, and I think it really demonstrates that idea of community and how I think this winter period, the idea of community and winter and Christmas is all interlinked.

So why do you think then that ghost stories, you know, in particular in Shropshire and and obviously elsewhere are tied so heavily to the winter and to the, you know, the all tied season?

24:54

I think it is something that is incredibly human.

I think if you look at storytelling, it's such an ancient practice and it's something that our ancestors stretching back throughout, well, time immemorial have always done.

25:10

And I think also it is linked very, very heavily to the winter months and to the darker months when there is less to do, there is less.

People have more time together and they need to, you know, when we're going all the way back, huddle around the fire for warmth.

25:27

There needs to be a way to pass the time.

And I think storytelling became that remarkable way in which people could pass the time.

I think also there is something very, very linked to the human imagination.

So in the darkness, we can't perceive what is around us.

25:47

We don't know what is, you know, in front of our face if when it's really dark.

And I think that really unlocks something in the human imagination.

It allows us to create up all these fantastical ideas and these fantastical, you know, stories.

26:05

And it it gives us an opportunity to create a world amid that darkness.

So I think it is very human.

I think it is something that might even be linked to people having more time on their hands.

26:21

But certainly I think at its very core, there is something very human and very real about it.

I think it is linked to what our ancestors were doing all those years ago and we still do it now.

You know, there's a reason why certain countries, I think it's like Iceland, give storybooks and give books as a present on Christmas Eve.

26:43

It's because storytelling and folklore and these imaginatively worlds that we can unlock through it is a way in which we can perceive the world around us.

And of course, if they can then reinforce some of those very important messages, those cautionary elements, those advisory elements, those things to be wary of or things that we need to be mindful of to, to be a kind of person.

27:12

You know, again, those are really powerful tools and ways to also help drive those messages through that again, at this time of the year, I think is is always quite pertinent because obviously it's between one year ending and another year beginning.

27:28

So again, a perfect opportunity to take stock, to look forward and of course have stories that help you to maybe evaluate you as a person and what you want to be and how you want to be going forward.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think it's that reflective element.

27:45

You can look back over the last year and you can look about what you've gained, but also for a lot of people, it would be what they've actually lost as well.

And by looking at and being reflective and introspective, it, it allows people to set their hopes for the following year.

28:04

And I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made in the past is the idea that we've kind of dehumanized.

I think certainly historical figures and historical people, but also I think historical working classes.

28:20

If you look at your average hopes and dreams and your wishes and your wants, people in the past had exactly the same feelings.

Hope doesn't change, regardless of what century it's in.

Wishes, look, hopes, dreams, all of the human experiences we have now, people in the past would have had.

28:43

They might not have called it New Year's resolutions, but they might have gone.

Well, I'm going to do this next year.

And I think there is something very special about this period.

Perhaps it's the darkness.

Perhaps it's, you know, the coldness that makes us look inside as well as looking outside.

29:02

So are there any famous ghostly apparitions or hauntings that that Shropshire has that are said to be, you know, particularly active around Christmas or the winter months?

So there isn't actually as many in kind of winter as you would necessarily expect.

29:23

There are several that, as I said previously that are linked to kind of these darker times.

So like the hard knit stories, one of them, Alva Lee's Boy Ghost is probably one of the ones that's the most kind of grounded in the actual time with that happening on New Year and not New Year's, Christmas Eve.

29:43

But a lot of our apparitions are quite fluid really in Shropshire.

And I think if they were tied to a date or a time or that kind of thing, it's been forgotten to modern audiences.

We have one or two that are maybe linked to Easter or to kind of around the different solstices, but there isn't anything majorly that is a Christmas ghost in the same way Jake and Marley was or something like that.

30:12

So, but what we do have are devil stories that are linked to this period, kind of the traditional 12 days of Christmas period.

So do you want to kind of go into that a little bit more in terms of, you know, you just referenced how the devil can feature in wintry traditions.

30:31

Are there similar, you know, sinister figures and how do how do these types of stories come through in the the traditional storytelling?

So.

In Shropshire So the devil isn't new to unique to Shropshire folklore, he can be found all over Britain and further afield.

30:52

But what I will say is that in Shropshire there seems to be a real abundance of stories.

He has a real proclivity for the region and he's left his mark on kind of places from the devil's chair to kind of cultural narratives and the ID and ideas around very much certain areas.

31:16

The devil in the Shropshire context isn't directly linked to the kind of the idea of the Abrahamic devil.

Certainly he's been influenced by Christian ideas, but he is a creature of multitudes.

31:31

He is almost quite human in his portrayal.

He very much picks up a lot of our characteristics, our follies, and he is a creature of kind of extremes.

31:47

So he's a trickster and a tempter, yet he can be a moraliser.

He could be absolutely absurd, absurd in some stories, but also incredibly kind of human.

And also, it's worth knowing that the devil of each community is incredibly different.

32:07

So the devil of the industrialized landscape, similar to where I grew up, that is a very different devil to the agrarian devil.

And I think that Shropshire's folkloric devil, or his old scratch, as he's known, should be seen as a empty vessel.

32:27

I think you should be seen as something that embodies the human experience.

And that he's not powerful because of like traditional ideas about good and evil, but instead he's powerful because people have believed in him and they've acted upon this weaving those narratives across the centuries that we're looking at.

32:49

And also, I think the devil is a conduit, at least in Shropshire's case, for what whoever speaks his name.

So, for example, the the devil of the industrial landscape is often linked to the physical landscape, like the smoke and the fog and the, the flames or the experiences of poverty.

33:16

Whereas the agrarian devil is very different.

He's linked to farming.

He's easily outwitted.

He's a bit, to be honest, a bit stupid.

So I think we have this figure that is familiar enough for people to recognise.

33:32

We all know what the devil is.

We all know even if we're not Christian.

You know the the the red guy with the horns who's evil, but he's creative enough, or you've got enough creative license to be able to pour into him whatever your community is experiencing.

33:53

I think it's a fascinating aspect of folklore and storytelling, the the the differences in the portrayal of the figure from region to region and how they can have such different meanings and subtleties.

And very much used, like you said, as the, you know, as a driving force, this empty vessel to be what it needs to be as part of that storytelling to explain something or to again, push home a message and an aspect that is essential to that area.

34:24

And again, how that can morph and change and shift from person to person and place to place.

And I think we we lose that because of the the references that we have today with devils and and devils storytelling and so on and so forth.

34:41

But actually there is a real history to do to this, which is really rather intriguing.

Definitely.

And I think that's what's important to mention is that we, I think our understanding of the devil is, is arguably more linked to the Abrahamic devil.

34:59

I think popular culture, even things like the Satanic Panic and stuff like that, have been so moulded by the Abrahamic devil that we actually lose some of the subtlety of the folkloric devil and he is very much a monster of our imaginings.

35:21

We are his creator and we are the ones that give him the purpose or the meaning.

And that changes, I think, definitely from storyteller to storyteller.

I think, you know, some of these stories would have been told to pass the time at the pub, as we'll see, and some of them would have been told to children.

35:44

And depending on who told the story, it would have had a very different meaning.

But certainly he is, I would say, the Lord of Winter in Shropshire.

He is most active in the darkest months, and I think that links to the idea of the uncertainty of what's, you know, beyond your patch, your home in the darkness.

36:09

But he he certainly has more power during this time.

And I was just going to say that's certainly something again, that you, you see from region to region that there seems to be more of these stories involving the figure of the devil in the winter period than elsewhere and in many other locations where he just seems to wander to inhabit this space.

36:36

And I think the way that you just described it as the the Lord of Winter is a really apartment one because it does seem to be something that is reflected in other regions as well.

That winter, that season of, you know, hunkering down darkness, open space, the cold nights, the bitterness of the season does seem to be a time when he, you know, this type of storytelling and this figure appear more frequently, which is fascinating.

37:04

Yeah, I think there must be something in our minds that links this period to him.

And I think he is such a, he's more than a stock character because he's got such a human twist.

But he is, I think the, the, the best way to describe it is an empty vessel.

37:23

You are able to pour in to the devil, whatever your fears are.

And if your fears are literally of the dark and the world, the darkened world around you, the winter months, how you're going to, you know, survive the winter months.

And the devil is the perfect conduit for it.

37:39

And you see that in there's a story that set around Yokilton, Yokilton Park.

And it's a, a more of a agrarian kind of story because it's set on a farm in that area.

37:55

And we're told that there's there's a farmer, he's got a family and one kind of harvest time a Welshman knocks on the door and and asks for work.

Now that's nothing kind of extra special.

Itinerant workers were very, very common during, well, probably as as long as there's been farms, but certainly during the 19th century, itinerant workers used to travel all the way through Shropshire.

38:23

And this, this Welshman, he's known only as the Welshman throughout the story.

We don't get his name.

I think the epithet of the Welshman is to mark him as very different to the, the, the Ocalton family.

But he's an incredibly good worker.

38:40

He stays for the season, but then he decides to stay on at the farm over winter to get kind of odd jobs and and that kind of thing.

And the family are very happy to have him.

He serves essentially as a bit of a Butler for them doing odd jobs and kind of keeping the farm ticking over through the winter months.

39:00

And he does that for actually two seasons.

He stays there for all the way through from planting to harvest.

And for his second Christmas is when the events are said to happen.

So everyone was in bed.

39:15

It was those dark, strange kind of days between Christmas and New Year.

And they were suddenly awoken by the sound of a great dragging noise and the persistent rattling of chains.

Now, these weren't the sort of chains that day-to-day, the ones that you're likely to see.

39:34

These were great, heavy, heavy chains, really deep, resounding noises that woke the whole family up with a start.

So they fought.

At first somebody must have been breaking into the home.

So they gathered the household staff, included the Welshman, and they asked them to go and check downstairs.

39:56

But when they checked downstairs nothing had moved.

There wasn't anything out of place and that just confused everyone further.

So the Welshman.

He started to act a little bit strange and the family were a bit concerned why he wanted to go outside.

40:16

He was desperate to go outside and he told them it was just to check.

He said the only way they can be sure that there was no one around was if they let him go outside and check.

But the family didn't want to open the door, because if there was somebody out there, certainly the noise was loud enough to think there was.

40:37

They didn't want to let whoever was outside in.

But they eventually allowed the Welshman he was.

He was really probably starting to do their head in.

So they opened the door very quickly, let him rush out and then bolted it back away from him.

40:55

And there was another loud rattling of chains and a small kind of dull cry before everything went silent and the family were too scared to actually check outside, so they waited until the morning and the Welshman was nowhere to be seen.

41:17

He disappeared into the night.

And this is where I think Charlotte Byrne shows her being a Victorian woman, her sentiments, because she says that the strangest thing is that the Welshman never came back to claim his wage.

41:34

And she mentions the Welsh love of money, which you know, is very of its time.

But the family decided the only plausible option was that the sounds of the chains was the devil himself rattling the chains, the bondage that the Welshman had made with him through some unknown pact with the devil.

41:59

And it was the devil trying to drag the Welshman back to claim his soul.

Now, what I love about this story is that it is such a evocative idea of, you know, those strange noises at night.

42:15

It really embodies, I think, the fear that, you know, people even today have like the other day we, we've just moved down into Jack Field.

And the first time we heard an owl outside, we were a bit like, wait, what's that?

42:31

It was particularly loud.

So it spooked us a little bit.

So any unknown noises are going to be frightening.

The sound of the rattling of chains would be particularly scary.

But also, I think it's got a lot of similarities to kind of modern day almost poltergeist activity, the idea of these noises waking people up, certainly paranormal kind of ideas, but in the minds of those telling the story and also the minds of those characters within the story, the only thing that could possibly make those noises would be the devil.

43:09

And of course, again, you know, just coming back to what we were talking about before, winter is, is perfect for these types of conjurings, aren't they?

In terms of the imagination of the mind, You've got the the colder nights, the windy nights, perfect again for strange anomalous sounds and experiences that maybe are different, hearing night animals as the the sky and the landscape changes around you.

43:35

And of course, it is all that much more sinister by the fact that you are in darkness.

It is harsher, it's more barren.

And of course, again, just breeding ground for these types of very fertile stories, rich in the imaginations, people of the time and still to this day, I think for the same types of reasons, you know, winter, the darker months, you know, they, they have that kind of power, they have that draw and that connection for these types of stories, as we've discussed.

44:05

Definitely.

And I think there's there's so much in it and I think in some ways in Shropshire the devil actually takes the place of ghosts in the traditional narrative.

So there's the traditional idea of, particularly in the Victorian period of people kind of gathering around and telling ghost stories.

44:26

But in Shropshire it seems to be more of the devil.

So for example, there's a story in Minsterley Hall, which again is in North Shropshire.

And Minsterley Hall was kind of first mentioned in kind of 1580s and it was, it's a long and and brilliant history.

44:44

It's got its own poltergeist as well.

But the story itself, it takes place in the Georgian period when Minsterley Hall was abandoned after kind of its previous owner had passed away.

And there was much kind of hullabaloo and hubbub about who was actually going to take on this abandoned hall.

45:03

They thought it might be one of the notable families from the area, someone who deserved its grandeur.

But nothing really happened.

Until one day a stranger, seemingly unannounced, moved into the community, moved into Minsterley Hall and made it his own.

45:21

They were quite unhappy with this stranger moving and they very quickly asked him, you know, what are your links to Shropshire?

And he said very vaguely that he had family from there, but no one really knew who he was.

And he was kind of given the epithet stranger.

45:39

And all he really told them was that he had made his fortune abroad.

And soon enough there was shipments of luxurious furniture and trinkets that had come from Italy and other far-flung kind of places.

45:55

And this seemed to really annoy people and it annoyed them even more that he didn't tell them how he'd made his fortune.

So for a very long time he was kind of ostracised a little bit.

People kind of would taught whenever he was mentioned and say oh you know, the only way he could be that rich was he sold his soul to the devil, ha ha.

46:17

And kind of he was the subject of a lot of gossip, but no one really wanted anything to do with him.

Despite the fact he tried quite hard to integrate with the community though he kept his personal life very tight, lipped quite a secret until the week before Christmas.

46:36

So at the week before Christmas, people from all over Shropshire, they started to receive these beautiful gilded invitations that implored them to come to a Christmas party at Minsterley Hall.

So it was promised to be such a wonderful occasion with, you know, drink and music and polite company.

46:59

And if anything, a lot of people decided to accept out of curiosity more than the desire to actually go for a party.

They wanted to know what his secret was and why he was so secretive about it.

47:15

So Christmas Eve came and all of the notable people in the county came to Vince Lee Hall and they were greeted by the most spectacular events.

There was a banquet, there was fine drink, and the company was pleasant.

47:31

It was said that no expense was spared, and after probably a little bit of Brandy they decided that actually the stranger couldn't be that bad.

He was quite a notable chap and he he won a lot of favour that night.

47:48

So there was an evening of a lot of merriment and joy.

And then the ladies went to retire to the music room, and then the men went to go to the drawing room to smoke and play cards and do whatever men do.

And they were having quite a merry time enjoying themselves until they were interrupted by a great unholy sound that echoed across the whole property, and it seemed to be coming from a great Ave. of trees that kind of lead up to the house.

48:23

It sounded like disembodied screams and then a really guttural shout of You are mine, which got closer and closer and it seemed to get louder each time it was said.

One of the things I think is hilarious is in the account we're told that there was great panic in the men's room.

48:43

We never mentioned how the women were and a lot of the them actually scattered.

There was some more stout hearted chaps.

They looked out of the window and they were greeted by a terrifying sight.

There was a fiery red tall figure that dominated the skyline and it was running inhumanly fast towards the house.

49:07

The men screamed and they fled and then the women quickly clicked that something was going on and they run after them and the guests are said to hide in the hedgerows.

And they watched this great awful figure, kind of blurry red shape, engulf the whole house in red gold flames, which as you can imagine, quickly put play to the merriment.

49:36

People were stood there and they were absolutely suspended in disbelief.

They didn't know what had happened and honestly it was probably quite shocking.

But they quickly noticed that the stranger wasn't among them.

49:52

So they waited, and they waited, and the cold darkness of the night was wrapped around them, and they soon realized the only way they would know for sure what happened was if they entered the property again.

50:08

So a few of brave souls entered, and they were greeted with an absolute mess.

There was all the finery scattered everywhere, shards of glass and broken China where big heavy wooden furniture had been thrown around the building like toys, and there was great angry splinters of wood that were stood up imposingly now, for after a while of searching they found the remains of the stranger.

50:39

He lay broken underneath a large overturned table.

Now his body was covered in these great 3 great dashes, and the worst had nearly torn him in two.

And perhaps the most chilling thing about their find was that there was a great sharp talent as black, as pitched, embedded in the dead man's eye.

51:05

And they panicked, They run away, and they come to the conclusion that they'd been right about the stranger all along, that he had sold his soul to the devil.

And that night, on Christmas Eve, Old Scratch had come to claim his prize.

51:28

As the days grow shorter and the winter nights draw near, the chill in the air invites us to gather closer to the fire, where the flickering flames dance like spectres in the dark.

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51:50

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54:44

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55:01

Dare to embrace the unknown, to journey deeper into the veiled corridors of history.

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Now, as the fire crackles and the wind howls outside, let us return to the mysteries that beckon from beyond the veil.

55:26

What spectres await?

What secrets lie dormant, waiting to be unearthed?

Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

So just thinking about the, you know, the couple of stories that you shared where you know, the devil features, how would you say that you know, they reflect the the fears, the anxieties, the challenges that winter Christmas brings?

56:01

How do you see those coming through in the stories that you've shared?

So I think in the first story, there's the idea that it's that classic kind of idea of what goes bump in the night.

And I think that's amplified by the winter, by the darkness.

56:19

I think you've got that idea of once you open that door to The Dark World around you, you don't know what is going to come in.

And that could be supernatural or it could be natural.

You don't know who is on the road, you don't know who is about.

With the Christmas story, The Devil's Talent, I think it's a little bit more linked to the idea of the stranger than necessarily the Christmas period.

56:46

I think the Christmas period is more of a plot, a plot device that allows them to to kind of give the stranger an excuse for a grand banquet.

But it's that idea that this stranger has come into the rural community.

57:02

He has really upended the old older because he is quite guarded about how he's made his money, but one can assume it's new money rather than old ancestral money.

He's bringing in all these things from other places and he ultimately has sold his soul to the devil in order to be there.

57:25

There are other stories that I think are very linked to Christmas period.

So the boat in, I think I actually mentioned this story the last time I was on the, on your podcast, but the Boat Inn in Jackfield, it's said that one evening the devil visited and the the Boat Inn is a lovely little pub.

57:46

You can still go now.

But in 1896 we're to believe that the devil went for a pint and he was flirting with the barmaids and he was, you know, talking, talking big.

And he was, he was gambling with people and he was challenging a lot of people to card games.

58:05

But everyone who played against the devil lost.

There was one man left who wanted to enjoy his pint.

In some versions he is a blacksmith, some versions he isn't.

So he thought the only way he could enjoy his pint was to play against the devil, who he didn't know at the time was the devil he thought was just a very annoying stranger.

58:26

So he starts playing this card game.

One of them drops a card, and when the blacksmith or looks down, he sees the stranger has two cloven hooves, panics, and just as he's about to scream, that's the devil.

58:42

I'm playing cards with the devil, a great gust of wind blows through the pub and drags the devil out, laughing and cursing as he goes.

Now, I think this story on the surface is quite comical and I can imagine someone telling it literally in the boat in, you know, really emphasizing there their gestures and really bringing the story to life.

59:08

But when you look at the area, particularly around Jack Field in the Victorian time, it starts to give some insight into the anxieties of different groups of people.

So Jack Field was described during the Victorian period in the Industrial Revolution as having all the trappings of a port town.

59:30

There was bulbaiting, there was brothels, there was pubs and people who had very hard working, complex lives living amongst all that.

So I think when you look at the devil deciding to visit the boat in, certainly it's the sort of area the devil would hang out.

59:52

But also I think he symbolises the demon of drink.

I think he symbolises the fear of the wives of the men who were drinking in the pub that night.

Whether they were going to come home with any money of the wages left.

And certainly when you look in Shropshire, a lot of the local pits, the quartermaster for the pit was actually the barman of a pub or the landlord of a pub.

1:00:19

So you would literally have to go into the pub to get your wages, which while you're in there, you might as well have a swift half one.

But in this sense, the devil is symbolising the fear of poverty, of is my husband going to come home with any money?

1:00:37

Are we going to have enough money to live through the Christmas period?

How are we going to pay the rent, put food on the table?

And he's as much as he's a comical figure in this story, he is an incredibly powerful one.

And, and what an evocative way of kind of sharing that and, and kind of seeing that anxiety because here the very hand that feeds you is also the very hand that then offers you temptation by, you know, this is the place where you have to go and collect your, your wages that sustain you and your family, But in itself is in a place of temptation and possibly leading you down into paths that are going to set your family back a little bit.

1:01:19

So again, a perfect way of of demonstrating and acting as a vessel for those fears, that anxiety around what that could potentially bring.

It's brilliant.

It is I, I really love, I love folklore and I love all forms of folklore, but I think the way in which the devil is used and the potential the devil has is particularly powerful.

1:01:43

And certainly when you start looking at the historical side of it, where this story sits in the history of the area, it is said you're able to unlock whole new perspectives.

Even things like as a result of the demon of drink, you've got a lot of teetotal movements operating around the 1890s in the Jackfield Iron Bridge area.

1:02:11

So you've got another slant on it is is this story to emphasize the teetotalist movement?

And I just think it's fascinating.

And the exciting thing about it is that all of these things are as relevant because with folklore, what the story means to me might be very different to what the story means to someone else, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

1:02:35

Because, you know, every time this story is told, it's told in a slightly different way, even if we're reading it from, you know, verbatim from a book.

And we're allowed to share our own slant on it.

So just kind of thinking about the the various stories that you shared, the devil stories, the ghost stories, the superstitions, you know, how would you say that they reflect maybe the region's relationship with the supernatural?

1:03:04

I think they are an insight into that uncertainty.

I think certainly there was a belief in the supernatural.

It's hard to quantify such a belief as with anything, it's hard to quantify belief in, you know, UFOs now or, or ghosts now.

1:03:22

But I think we can safely say that there were people who believed in the supernatural forces.

There were people who would, you know, hang Rowan wood crosses outside the door to protect the house from witches or, you know, draw patterns on the hearth to keep the devil from coming through the the the chimney.

1:03:41

But also is a way in which people can add meaning to the uncertainties of life.

So if you can't control things like death, you can't control things like the harvest, you can't control the cold winter months and how it's going to affect you.

1:03:59

But if you tell these stories and you do these folk practices and you warn people, you are able to take a little bit of agency and you are able to protect yourself.

Even if you're not actually doing anything to protect yourself, you're able to feel like you are.

1:04:20

So I think there's a massive part of that.

But I also think they show the creativity of the area.

There are a lot of narratives that will have been brought into Shropshire through people travelling or through, you know, movement of different peoples through, you know, itinerant workers and things like that.

1:04:40

But also there's a lot of narratives that are very creative and very, I think linked to the area, the geography of the area as well.

So when you get onto like the Devil's chair, for instance, there are devil's chairs all over the world.

1:04:56

There are, you know, geographical phenomena that's linked to the devil, but the story of the devil's chair is a Shropshire phenomenon because it's the way in which people in the area have looked at the landscape and assigned it meaning.

1:05:12

So how would you then say these darker elements, these darker stories, these very much these Christmas storytelling offerings that we've been discussing, how would you say they've survived into the, to the modern day?

And you know, what would you say that suggests in terms of their significance in Shropshire today?

1:05:31

So a lot of them have survived through the work of the 19th century folklorists, Charlotte Byrne, Georgina Jackson and people like them.

So as much as you know, I do poke fun at Charlotte Byrne a little bit at times because she is very much a product of her time.

1:05:51

Don't get her on the subject of people from the Shropshire coalfield, like where I'm from.

She's she wouldn't be impressed, but without her work, we would have such a lack of understanding about the ideas from the past and the beliefs of the past.

1:06:09

As well as that, I think a lot of our stories are still or or were still being passed on through storytelling, through kind of the oral tradition and through excellent people who were working, you know, in in my lifetime and working now, like Amy Douglas, who share Shropshire folklore and really link it to the time of year.

1:06:34

I think there has been a resurgence in folklore, particularly in the last kind of four or five years around the pandemic.

And I think this is the time in which people are looking at these stories that maybe 100 years old, maybe even older, and giving them new meaning and trying to understand them in the context of now as well.

1:06:58

And I think just following on from what you just said, I think, you know, they, we've seen and we've talked about how they've brought communities together in the, the dark months of the year.

But I think again, with some of the reshaping and the reimagining that we're seeing of folklore today, which is massively popular, popular, and I think becoming more and more popular, I, I think we see the same thing.

1:07:21

We see people coming together, communities coming together, the pandemic being a perfect example there of of how folklore has been a way to unite, to share anxieties, to look back on the past again with this sense of coming together to help draw from each other.

1:07:41

And I think there's something really powerful about them.

Oh, definitely.

I think there is an idea.

I think the pandemic, I think folklore was certainly gaining.

It's never lost interest.

People have always been interested, even if it's like mythology or fairies or Dragons or something.

1:08:01

Dragons are cool.

There's always been that interest there.

But I think the pandemic left us searching.

I think it was the first time a lot of us had experienced something like that and it left us searching for something.

And I think whatever there is a period of time of uncertainty, humans look inwardly, I suppose that does link to kind of the winter months as well.

1:08:27

And for whatever reason, I think we found a lot of answers through focal and we found a lot of belonging and of community, but not just collective community.

I think of kind of the people that are living now, but also historical communities, historical legacies.

1:08:46

And for a lot of us, myself included, talking about folklore and sharing folklore is a way to connect with our ancestors.

So for me, my ancestors are very important.

They're very kind of active within my world, within my way of seeing things.

1:09:07

My ancestors were very working class.

They were a lot of their lives are marred by poverty, going as far back as I can find on my family tree.

And also a lot of them, for instance, don't have actual burial sites.

1:09:23

They were kind of in porpoise graves or temporary graves.

So there's no way to connect with them in a landmark or a grave in a conventional way.

So I found that to me, folklore is a way in which I can connect with my ancestors.

1:09:41

It's a way that I can tell the stories and make my voice just a little bit louder for them to be heard as well as myself to be heard.

So I think because so many of our stories have a real historical legacy in Shropshire from the eighteen 1700s, these are the same stories they would have been telling.

1:10:01

So for me, it's important to share them, not only because they deserve a place in folkloric discussions the same as other areas, but also it allows a group of people that are often marginalized and forgotten by history to have a voice.

1:10:19

Yeah.

And I think that's a perfect way of explaining it because I do think that oftentimes folklore really is the the history of the common everyday person, the person whose history would normally not be remembered.

But yet here's a powerful medium for which we can connect with people from a very particular time frame and region and often marginalized or grouped from that society, and connect in a way that you would never be able to get in a history book.

1:10:49

It's a really powerful tool to do that.

It's brilliant.

I completely agree and I think that's why we have so many kind of female ghosts and and female kind of ghost narratives in historically and in Shropshire is because these are women that were left on the sidelines and marginalized by history.

1:11:08

These are women that have had absolutely horrendous things and acted upon them or women that symbolize other women that had had horrible things enacted upon them.

So they've become the ghost.

And I think there is something inherently kind of working class about ghost stories and the paranormal.

1:11:26

And also, that's not to say that it doesn't belong to other, but I think at least in the Shropshire's content context, a lot of terrible things that have happened to working class communities.

The legacy continues as a ghost story.

1:11:42

So just kind of bringing together some of our discussion then, which, how would you say, you know, the modern tales that continue to be told today?

How do those maybe connect with the superstitions, with the with the past and maybe the more contemporary themes?

1:12:01

How do you see this coming through in modern modern storytelling?

So I think you've got the idea of the core narratives, so even if the meaning of the story changes, you've got the core narratives continuing.

1:12:16

A lot of people will look at a story and put their own slant on it.

For instance, there's a lot of ghost stories in Shropshire that are reworked or there's just been a wonderful production in the area of different ghost stories being retold through different settings and different ways.

1:12:38

I think even some of the stuff I've done, particularly around The Devil's Chair, has been a reimagining of the core story that would have been there before.

And I think every time someone tells the story, even if it is, you know, Oh yeah, this wonderful bit of folklore and they share it with a mate or oh, did you see this or my granddad used to tell me this, it is a reimagining of that core story.

1:13:11

And I think there has been a lot more of a focus of that in Shropshire since I've been doing so.

I've been doing my research really seriously for about four years now.

And in that four years, I've seen Shropshire play more of an active role, be mentioned more, and also certain things be reimagined in a way that wasn't being done beforehand.

1:13:34

And also the brilliant work I mentioned there briefly before.

But people like Amy Douglas, she is an amazing storyteller, a really astute, wonderful woman.

And she does a lot of work of reimagining folk tales not only within Shropshire, but also from further afield.

1:13:53

So I think whenever we tell a story, even if we tell it and we think, oh, you know, that I missed that bit out or didn't quite tell that how I wanted it to, or I didn't emphasize this bit, we're allowing it to be reimagined.

1:14:09

And you know, we can't, we can't not talk at this point about your own kind of little snippet of that with the best of men, which I think is precisely what we were just discussing.

It's this kind of blending, isn't it, of something that feels older.

You can still see these same connections and themes and superstitions and, and aspects of storytelling that are very much deep rooted in tales from the past, but in in a modern creation, something that is going to suit a modern audience.

1:14:39

Do you want to just tell people a little a little bit more about the best of men and the writing behind that and the the project and how they can listen to it?

Yeah, of course.

So The Best of Men is a Shropshire based folk horror.

1:14:56

I am absolutely obsessed with the folk horror world.

I love kind of, I, I think the Wicker Man is one of my comfort movies, not the Nicolas Cage one, the the original.

So I've, I've been wanting to create a folk horror for a very long time and Shropshire is absolutely full of things you could use to enact that kind of world.

1:15:19

And I think the place that typifies it the most is the Sniper Stones, the Devil's Chair and the Sniper Stones.

So that is the centre.

That's where the audio drama really originates, centred around.

1:15:39

And the Cypress Stones has a number of different bodies of folklore, particularly about the devil.

The devil was said to have created it.

So he was walking one day back from Ireland with a apron full of stones, and he wanted to dam the River Severn as usual.

1:15:55

He seems to really, you know, want to flood the area like, but the apron strings break, the stones scatter and you have the striper stones.

And he's said to sometimes be jumping up and down on the stones trying to push them to earth.

And if you he succeeds, the end of the world as we know it will happen.

1:16:16

But the peace of folklore I focused on most for the best of men was the stuff that is centred around the 21st of December and that is said to be the devil's night in around the sniper stones.

1:16:34

So on the 21st of December, sometimes it's referred to as the winter solstice as well.

The devil calls forth all the ghosts and the wicked and the worst people in the area and as far away as Wales we're told, and he calls them to the sniper stones for a great black mass, a night of merriment and wickedness.

1:16:58

And that culminates in him voting the King or Queen of evil for the year.

And we're not told really what you get if you're voted the wickedest person.

I like to think that it's kind of like a Burger King crown or something.

But upon being voted the wickedest person of the year, you are kind of the king for the day.

1:17:21

And there's also a lot of pledges, a lot of promises being made, a lot of people actually selling their souls to the devil that night.

And it's said to be the time that the sniper stones is the most dangerous and a time that you really should avoid the area of very ominous places it is, but it's particularly ominous on the 21st of December.

1:17:43

So the idea really was centred around the folklore of that.

But I think I'd been watching a lot of kind of ghost shows.

And do you know the ones where it's very much like, oh, a demon around every corner and oh, that was a demon and that was a demon.

1:18:01

And, you know, the very good entertainment.

And I had the thought of what would happen if one of these ghost shows actually met the devil.

What would happen if they actually went looking for the devil and they found them?

1:18:18

And then I had that moment where you kind of everything clicks into place and I realised that we have folklore interruption that very much could work with that.

So it was very much a product the best of men of my love of the area, my love of the folklore and particularly the devil folklore, but also a bit of an ode to those very cheesy ghost shows and very much like the stuff I grew up watching as well, like most haunted and stuff like that.

1:18:49

And kind of a bit of a love letter to those early 2000s ghost TV shows and phenomena.

And really it's it's about that.

It's what would happen if the devil actually showed himself and there's twists and turns and that kind of thing.

1:19:07

But it can be heard if you search the best of men, alternative stories and fake realities Podcast was the producer and it can be found on kind of all streaming sites and also their website as well.

I mean, it's divine writing.

1:19:22

I wouldn't expect anything else because it comes from you.

But thank you.

It is, it is such a joy to listen to because it really does touch all the notes or touch upon all the notes that we've been talking about.

And it's just one of those very immersive experiences that I think is just so overwhelmingly good in all the good, in all the good ways.

1:19:41

You know, when you want those hairs on the back of your neck or those moments that just give you pause to think and reflect.

I mean, it's just a really, really fantastic listen to.

So I would very much recommend it.

And, and of course, I'll, I'll make sure to add the links to the narrative into the into the podcast so that people can take a listen to the audio of that.

1:20:03

And and of course, add it to the website so that if they're wanting to follow up by taking a listen, then they can do so because it's incredible.

Thank you, Thank you.

That means an awful lot to me.

And of course, I will also make sure to include all of your links as before.

1:20:19

So if people want to again, come and look to see what you're offering in terms of your blog writing, if they want to just follow you on social media to see what you're up to, then of course those links will be very easily signposted to people on the the website and again on the podcast description notes.

1:20:38

Brilliant.

Thank you and Amy, honestly, it's always such a pleasure to chat with you.

We, I never, I never, ever come away from a conversation with you or reading something that you write for your blog or just seeing a little snippet of something that you share on Twitter.

1:20:53

There's I never come away not having kind of had a really good chat or a really good ha, that's incredible.

Or just a moment where I take my own, my own moment to pause and to think based on something that you shared.

1:21:09

You are just fantastic to to chat with.

So thank you so much for your time to to come along and share your knowledge and your passion about Shropshire and Christmas and you know, the devil stories and the ghost stories and the things that are at the heart of this time of year for the region that you love.

1:21:29

Thank you and thank you so much for having me again.

It's been wonderful.

It's any excuse to talk about Shropshire I jump at, but particularly with yourself.

Honestly, it's been so much fun and thank you again and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

1:21:50

Thank you for.

Joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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1:22:06

Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.