Haunted Histories: Tales From England's Past With Penny Griffiths-Morgan

0:17

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:33

Picture this, a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

1:02

We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

1:26

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

1:47

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge.

Because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:06

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles.

Where we delve into the shadows of history to uncover the stories that still echo through time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by a very special guest, Penny Griffiths Morgan.

2:24

Penny's fascination with the unusual began at a young age after witnessing a mysterious light anomaly in an old barn in her village.

This early encounter ignited a lifelong passion for the paranormal.

Over the years, Penny has visited countless museums, historic buildings, and ruins, combining her love of history with the intrigue of the supernatural.

2:50

Fast forward to today, and Penny has become a prominent figure in the world of paranormal investigation.

She produces and presents the popular Haunted Histories podcast, has been featured in national newspapers and has appeared on radio, TV and other podcasts.

3:11

Penny is also a regular historian on Help My House is Haunted, a guest on the recent A History of the Paranormal documentary, a frequent speaker at paranormal events across the UK and a feature writer for Haunted magazine.

3:29

In addition to her media presence, Penny is a published author, with five books available on Amazon, with a 6th on the way.

Today, we'll be exploring some of the haunted histories behind locations featured in Penny's books, such as Epping Forest and Bosworth Hall.

3:49

We'll also dive into Penny's personal passions and interests, uncovering what drives her fascination with the mysterious and the macabre.

So settle in and prepare for a journey through the eerie and the unexplained.

4:06

Join us as we explore haunted histories with Penny Griffiths Morgan right here on Haunted History Chronicles.

Hi Penny, thank you so much for joining me this evening.

4:23

I'm really looking forward to this, really looking forward to being able to talk history with a fellow history lover.

I think we're kindred.

Sisters, aren't we on this one?

Well, the fact we've both got, we've both got podcasts with the words history in is kind of it had to happen, didn't it?

4:40

It had to happen at some point.

So do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and and how your journey into the realms of history and the paranormal for you began?

Well, Oh yeah, this is a, this is a well trodden story.

4:57

Most, most people have heard this story.

But I, I, I, I was never really into history until I, I went to secondary school and I had this amazing teacher called Phil Hancock, who was very eclectic.

And looking back now at sort of, you know, at the time I thought he was really old.

5:16

He was probably in his late 30s, which makes me feel positively decrepit, but he had this real energy about him when he was teaching history.

And he would also encourage us to ask and go off piste and, and, and, you know, think things through and not just accept what was written in the textbook.

5:37

And that made me start sort of getting more into it and thinking actually this is quite interesting.

I must admit.

Up till that point, my parents, they had the National Trust memberships, the English Heritage membership.

So me and my young sister were just hooning around castles on holidays to in Dorset and Cornwall and Yorkshire and all that kind of thing.

5:57

And at the time I thought this is so boring.

But as a mother of two boys now, I can see that having those memberships where your kids can run around to their heart's content in these amazing sights and you as the parent can admire them is actually genius.

6:13

The paranormal side, I'd always felt I was, I was a bit different to people.

I, I always experienced things that I couldn't explain, like I'd see things move or I'd hear noises, I'd hear voices from a quite young age and, and you know, my, I'd, I'd tell my mom and she'd be like, Oh, doesn't exist.

6:34

Don't be silly.

I'm not medium, I'm not psychic or anything like that.

I just think I'm, I was, I was open to it happening, but it, it was an experience probably when I was about 10 or 11, I think in the village growing up where my little sister and I, she was about three years younger than me.

6:54

We were walking our dog in the village and there was these two sort of ramshackle, like quasi derelict buildings.

And we were always told never go in them, it's dangerous, etcetera, etcetera.

And we were stood staring into one that was like this big black barn.

7:11

And even though it was a sunny day outside, the inside of the barn was dark.

It was a completely different sort of lighting to what was outside.

And we saw what I could only describe as Tinkerbell, like this bright white, this bright light moving around and moving around the beams and moving down.

7:32

And it wasn't following.

When I look back at it now with sort of adult insight, it wasn't following like an air pattern, But what was ever so strange was it flew straight to the crack in the door that we were looking at, hovered in front of us for a split second and then just vanished.

7:51

And my sister and I couldn't move.

We, we, we, we were totally and utterly paralyzed.

And not through fear or anything.

It was just like time just stopped.

And so with things like that happening that that always, I always had an interest.

8:07

And then with the the sort of history and having such a good teacher who is probably why the way I talk about history now, I think it's how he would have talked, if that makes sense.

That holds energy and and and I'm wanting people to not just see it as a boring so in 1856, blah, blah, blah.

8:26

It's actually make it come to life.

And I think that's what sometimes exploring history through other lenses allows you to do, whether it's, you know, the ghost stories or darker elements of that history or the unknown elements of the history associated with those locations and sites.

8:43

It just allows you to see the very real people and their stories play out and unfold in a way that maybe, maybe you wouldn't get by picking up a textbook.

And I think that's what's magical about it.

I agree, I agree.

And the the thing with this teacher, I mean what was interesting and it still makes me laugh to this day.

9:02

When I said I was going to do history A level, he told my mum tell her not to do it.

She'll hate it, she will fail it.

And I did fail it.

It was the most boring thing I'd ever done in my life.

And when I look at what I do now, I find I find that quite funny.

9:21

But he was completely right.

He he knew me well enough to say she will hate history A level, but when she can search, research what she wants to research, she'll do brilliantly.

But it is it is about, I mean, the biggest compliment I think I can get paid when I do one of my talks is I always thought history was boring, but I can listen to you talk about it.

9:44

And if that makes someone go off and go and visit Kenilworth Castle and actually ask questions about who so who did live here?

What was their life like?

What did they do?

What, what, what are they known for?

Who you know, then I'm happy.

I'm happy that I've I've got someone to sort of start asking questions aside from what they were bored rigid by at school.

10:05

Absolutely.

And that, you know, just to echo what you said, mine was my history teacher at secondary school, Mr. Wren.

Just amazing.

And I had him for so many years teaching history.

And when you get the right person who is passionate like that, by gosh, does it bring a subject to life.

10:23

And yeah, I thank him to this day for inspiring me and and really getting me interested in history because it's never waned ever since then.

Oh, mine did when I thought it wasn't cool.

It wasn't cool really.

I kind of had to, you know, kind of do it behind the supermarket so that nobody knew.

10:44

But the, the teacher, it can say he, he passed away in his early 40s.

He, he had a heart attack on the rugby pitch.

And I kind of, I always hope that he's still looking down and going.

I'm proud of you.

You've, you've, you've, you've run with it.

11:02

Because if it wasn't for him, none of none of what I'm doing now, I think would have happened.

And just to kind of come to some of the things that you're doing now.

I mean, part of that is you've authored several books.

Yeah, well, obviously into the the mysterious and the historical.

11:19

Do you want to just share some of the details and give us a brief overview of your books to date?

Well, currently I've got five.

I've just actually as of this morning finished the manuscript for my 6th, which hopefully should be out for September is the plan.

11:40

So the first one I wrote, I never expected to write this many.

I didn't expect to become addicted to book writing.

The first one I wrote was called My Haunted History.

And because doing these podcasts, you and I were talking about this off air, you do so much research before you do a show when you're talking about the history side of things and events that have happened there.

12:02

And I would have all this these ridiculous amounts of research for all these locations I'd done on haunted histories.

And it was actually the author, Richard Estep said, well, why don't you put them into a book?

And and I was like, oh, it's quite a good idea.

So I chose 10 locations that I'd done shows on that I'd also have the chance to investigate myself.

12:21

So the book was these chapters, half history, half my personal investigation, which is kind of how my show used to be until I started to blend the two.

That one I'm actually currently doing an edit re edit of and I'm going to be adding an 11th chapter 2, so it'll be relaunched again soon.

12:39

The second book I did is called A Haunted Experiment, and I got the inspiration for that one.

I was doing a photo shoot, so that's very grand, but I was doing a photo shoot for the Daily Mail on women in the Paranormal.

And I was listening to some of the other, the other women who were there, amazing people like Hazel Ford.

13:00

And they were talking about like different gadgets, different experiments that you can do.

And I'm sort of listening to everything and I'm thinking, well, what's the history of these experiments?

There's loads of books out there that are really helpful that tell you how to do the experiment and give you ideas, but no one's ever talked about where that experiment came from.

13:18

And I'd also recently interviewed Carl Pfeiffer, who is one of the people who created the Estes Method.

So I thought, that sounds like quite a good book.

I could write that, pick four of my favorite experiments and write about the history of them and then recreate them in some different locations to see which of them works.

13:37

If it does, what happened?

So that's a haunt my a haunted experiment.

Then we come on to what was next, paranormal play time.

I had to think which order I wrote these in.

Now paranormal play time, that's about the British School Museum in Hitchin, which is one of my favorite places and I hadn't planned to write it, if I'm completely honest.

14:03

I've gone to do an investigation there with the paranormal sisters and was chatting to the then manager, Sam, and they were saying, oh, Penny's a writer because I'd only released my haunted history at that point.

She's a writer.

And he said, you know, what do you think of this place?

14:19

I say it's fab.

It's fascinating.

Like from a school schooling point of view, it's absolutely fascinating.

And he said, don't suppose you'd write a book on it for us.

Would you like the hauntings and anything about the area?

Because it's our 25th anniversary in 12 months time of being a museum And it would be, you know, we could launch it in conjunction with that.

14:39

Well, had all these plans, all these investigations I was going to do at the school and COVID hit so, but they still needed the book.

So I had to think outside the box a little bit.

So that one probably has more history in it than I actually wanted it to have, but that's what that one was.

14:59

Then Bosworth Hall, the battle for Bosworth Hall, I, I found the place fascinating and Florence Dixie especially fascinating from doing an interview with the Andy and Paul from Haunted magazine for Haunted Histories.

And I made a mental note that at some point I'd look into this as a potential idea for a book.

15:20

And then I got asked to to be a guest at the first Festival of the Unexplained and that was being held at Bosworth Hall.

And I'd finished Paranormal Play Time at this point, so I was looking for a new book I did to write.

And so I thought, why don't I write this one on Bosworth because then I can launch it at the festival.

15:36

And they're kind of, and it's kind of become synonymous now with the festival.

So in that one, we're looking at Bosworth Hall in Market Bosworth.

You know, some of the people who've lived there, some are doing a few investigations there.

And then my most recent one that I launched last year is Elements of Epping Forest, funnily enough about Epping Forest in the area.

15:59

But the inspiration for that came it was the first episode of Help My House Is Haunted.

It was Celebrity Help My House is Haunted and it was in one of the Essex family's house and they were experiencing what they thought was a woman and children.

16:19

And I came along never having done anything like this on TV before.

I came along with like folders full of notes and, and it was Jane Harris who said that's a book there.

And, and that's how elements of Epping Forest came about.

And I, so I just built on the notes.

16:35

I had to give more of a, almost like a going back to how far the forest went, back to some of the things that happened to it, some of the people who might have lived there, some of the buildings that have been there.

But then the final chapter of that book, I decided to go a bit off, off kilter sort of thing.

And, and, and I know I knew that quite a lot of novels had been written using Epping forests as their backdrop.

16:56

And so I almost did compare and contrast essays on some of these novels at the back to make it a little bit different to what I'd normally have written.

And yeah, and that's all my books to date.

And I have to say I have every single one and love every.

17:14

Single.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm I'm one of those that are really eagerly looking forward to the next one.

And on that note, do we get a little taster as to what the next one is going to be about?

Well, the next one, it's called Becoming Peggy, My paranormal Journey.

17:32

And a lot of people, when I did the Festival of the Unexplained last year, a lot of people were asking if my haunted history was autobiographical and I said no, nobody wants to know about me.

And quite a lot of people like, well, actually, yes, we do.

So the boys from Haunted Magazine call me Peggy.

17:51

It's a standing joke.

They call me Peggy all the time.

In fact, even when they would, it's in the Bosworth Hall when they were doing an investigation there and they said who's downstairs?

And it came up with Peggy and I was downstairs.

So I thought, well, Peggy's kind of like, I mean, if, if Beyoncé can have Sasha fears as her alter ego, Peggy is mine.

18:13

And so it's called becoming Peggy.

So it's, it's, it's going to talk about, yeah, key elements of my life, how they've affected me, how they brought me to where I am now.

Some of the places I've stayed, like one of the chapters is about a very surreal holiday I had in Normandy in France, where the, the property we were staying at, but basically this cottage we were staying in, it was like 4-5 hundred year old cottage.

18:35

It was haunted to heck.

And, and on about the third day, my husband turned around and said, I'm taking the boys out.

Do your spooky shit and sort this.

And so it's talking about what happened there, the house that I grew up in, even though it was a 1960s house, some of the weird stuff that happened there and just loads of information about so people can see me and what's made me me.

19:01

But there's still going to be history in it.

But I mean, you'd expect nothing less, wouldn't you?

In fact, I was at the National Archives this weekend just gone swatting up on some of the assizes records of some of the stuff that's happened in Chelmsford so that I could include that in the book because I live in Chelmsford in Essex and lots of lots of other bits like that.

19:19

So there's there's going to be history, there's going to be mystery and it's get, it gets a bit personal for me.

So people might see why I'm sometimes the way I am.

Honestly, I can't wait.

I mean, I just think it's I love your writing and I think any opportunity to understand what motivates people to explore history and the paranormal, all of these things, I think it just adds to that deeper understanding.

19:46

I think it's it's fascinating to get to know someone.

And I think when you have the opportunity to read someone who's an author, who authors many books, you do want to know more about them and what's motivated them.

It's it's personally why I start asking that nearly to every single guest that I speak to.

20:03

What is driving you to do this?

What got you interested?

Tell me about you first, because you know you're just as.

Part of the equation is what you do, if you like.

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree.

I agree.

So yeah, that that hopefully should be out for Septel.

Like I say, I've finished the first draft of the manuscript.

20:20

I'm just going over it.

I went over 4 chapters today, sort of tweaking them slightly.

But yeah, the first draft is, is finished.

So that'll be winging its way to dead Good publishing.

The Haunted Mags published because they're going to be publishing my books from now on.

And yeah, I'm hoping to have it ready for September, so fingers crossed.

20:40

And I know that you've got some even, you know, even more big news really, because you'll be attending the Pennhurst.

Paracon in May.

I still can't.

I still can't believe that's happening.

If I'm completely honest with you, I still think someone's going to slap me in a minute and I'll wake up and go.

It was all a dream.

20:57

Yeah, I, I was out in Canada, in America early May with Rachel Ashman from Los Souls Paranormal and the Festival of the Unexplained.

And we were there with the wonderful Wess Coleman.

They're all correction officers who do paranormal.

And I've known Wess for years and he's always said come out and visit, come out and visit.

21:16

And I can say he looked after us amazingly.

And we didn't, our feet didn't touch the ground.

We got to see so much.

We got to investigate the Shami Hotel in up in New York, not the Stanley, the Shanley.

We got to investigate Fort Mifflin in Philadelphia.

We got to see Eastern State Penitentiary.

21:36

And on the Saturday he said, do you fancy going to Pennhurst Asylum?

And I was like, you know, I don't know really.

It's we're knackered because we were going to a Paracon in New Jersey that afternoon.

And he said, look, I've, I've spoken to Bob, who runs the place.

We can have an hour's tour.

21:53

He'll show you around.

And I, Rachel and I got on very well with Bob.

He's got a very, very dry sense of humour.

And he was talking at the, the, this year's Paracom was going to be the following weekend and they were setting up for it.

And I was looking at the guest list.

And I went, how come you never have any British guests on here?

22:09

He said, because I don't know any good British guests.

And I just went and he went, do you want to do it next year then?

And I was like, yeah, all right, thinking he was joking.

And I messaged him about a month later and I said, will you winding me up?

And he went no, no, no.

He said, I mean, obviously I'm, I'm not on like Rachel and I aren't going to be on like upper list or anything because nobody knows who we are out there.

22:32

But he, yeah, he said, no, you'll have a table.

You'll, you'll be on the billing.

I want you to do the, the, the ghost hunts.

There's two ghost hunts.

I think we're members of the public.

I'm going to be ghost hunting at Pennhurst Asylum, the VIP dinner with the members of the public.

22:47

I want you to be on that.

So, yeah, about 6000 people they expect through the tour.

Oh, nerve wracking.

Yeah, yeah.

And all I'm thinking about is how am I going to get enough books out there?

And I don't want to sell out.

But I think Rachel's more scared about the fact that I've said I'll drive us to Philadelphia from Newark airport.

23:07

I don't think she believes me that I could do it.

I don't believe me.

I can do it at the moment, but I'll get there.

I'll sort it.

But yeah, my hotel's all booked because the hotels sell out.

In fact, two of the hotels nearby have already sold out for those that weekend.

So yeah, Penn, Pennhurst, Paracon, I'm, I'm still sort of.

23:26

Pinching yourself, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it is a bit of a dream location and to be able to help to something like that, it's just truly phenomenal.

I, I, I, I genuinely, I, I cannot thank Wes enough for introducing us to Bob.

I mean, it was the fact that I went full on confident networking, even though inside the imposter syndrome was like leaping to get out.

23:49

And I thought, what's the worst he's going to say is ha, ha, ha, no.

But he didn't say ha ha no.

He said yes.

And he meant it.

And but yeah, we did get to explore.

We went down to the area known as Candyland.

So I don't know if you know much about Pennhurst, but when it was it was, I mean, it's huge.

24:07

I mean, the fact that's what's there is, is like half of how big it was.

It was massive and I don't know, the television programs you watch on it can can quite do justice to how huge this site was.

But one of the recreation areas was basically the basement and it was known as Candyland.

24:24

And it was it was weird.

It it all I wanted to do was walk around in circles when I was down there.

And apparently a lot of people get like that.

They just want to walk around in a circle, like nonstop.

What do they call it?

24:40

Walking with purpose, I think is the technical term for it.

But you also saw the entrance to the death tunnel as you were going down there.

And even though I don't get scared, it was something quite sort of visceral about seeing the entrance to this tunnel that they built so that the, the, the, the residents would not see the bodies being moved off premises and things like that.

25:00

It, it was kind of, but the weirdest thing there was where they've been renovating it, They've got rooms that are just full of things like food trays or old mattresses or, and they just stacked up to the ceiling, all this stuff.

25:16

And, and I'm thinking if, if I was one of those people that could read things, you know, touch them and read them, the amount of energy coming off these artifacts and that's what they are.

It, it was very, it, it was it's, it's such an iconic place and to get to walk around it kind of behind the scenes with someone who works there.

25:44

Bit of a dream moment.

Gosh, it's surreal.

Surreal.

Yeah.

So you kind of, I think we've kind of touched upon this briefly, but this kind of fascination and need to bring history together alongside the paranormal is something that obviously I'm interested in and I know you are.

26:04

Now why for you do you think they go hand in hand?

One of the reasons I started haunted Histories is because I was getting so annoyed with the so-called history that was being told about places that groups hire to investigate like, oh, it was a it was a morgue.

26:23

Like there was a man murdered hundreds of children here and, and all that.

And when did that happen?

1893 Well, do you not think there might have been records of children dying?

Do you not think, you know?

And Oh no, a psychic said that she saw dead bodies in the front room of this house.

26:39

Well, very probably because they used to lay out a body before a funeral.

And, and, and, and so I started sort of thinking, well, it would be more interesting if you can find historical validation for what someone's picked up or a name or something like that.

And that's why I started doing it.

26:56

And then it kind of kind of snowballed from there to being, well, I, I did a talk at the earlier this year in March at the scary SW conference called history and the paranormal friends with benefits.

And the, the, the reason I, I did, I did it was because sometimes I think the 2GO hand in hand, they make perfect lovers, but then other times I think they absolutely hate each other.

27:25

And it's like when the history actually when somebody who's doing a paranormal investigation said, no, no, no, this person was murdered.

This person was murdered and the history books say, well, actually, no, they lived another 20 years after when you said they were murdered.

So how were they murdered?

And it's it's it's that's when they don't like each other very much.

27:43

But when you can sort someone says, I believe this person was murdered here during, I don't know, 1942 air raid.

And then you find out the date of their death was 1942 and there was an air raid.

It kind of gives credence to what the history that the paranormal people are picking up and what's the more brilliant way of having a whoa moment when you can do that.

28:08

Conversely, I like doing trigger experiments and you need to understand your history to do those well.

So to give you an example, when I was investigating the Leopard Inn that used to be in Burslem, amazing venue, I did actually shed a tear when I found out it burnt down.

28:25

We could hear a girl coughing, like proper cough.

And somebody turned around and said, oh, do you have tuberculosis and nothing.

So I turned around, knowing the fact that the place was 19th century.

I said, do you have consumption?

And all the lights went on.

28:44

So even something as simple as that, by knowing what terminology to use for the question you want to ask, it's where the history comes in.

So I do think just from a simplistic point of view, yes, there they've got to be linked.

29:00

If you want to do a good job, I think they have to be linked.

Oh, I completely agree with you absolutely 100% on both kind of sides of the, the coin that you were referencing, because like you said, they just are so integral, I think to all aspects in terms of validation, but also going in with some knowledge that might better arm you to, to get a better outcome.

29:24

And, you know, sometimes it just takes the smallest reference that would be accurate to the time frame that you're thinking about.

And things just then happen, you know, the correct use of the Lord's prayer fit for that time period or how some something might be spoken or a trigger object that you know, something about anything.

29:47

It, it can just make something begin to spark to life.

And that's again that hair on the back of your neck moment.

Definitely.

I mean, even even one of the, the tips I, I give to people is when you're investigating and you're trying to communicate with some say using Evps, ask them if it's a king or a queen on the throne.

30:08

Because if they say queen, that really narrows down your time periods.

I did that in Epping Forest, in elements of Epping Forest.

We were doing an investigation there and we, we, we knew there's someone around because the sensors kept going off and we were doing an EVP and we, you know, we picked up them saying yes, hello and everything.

30:28

And I just said is it a king or AI was trying to work out what time period they might have been 'cause Epping forests got 1000 years worth of history there.

And I said, is it a king or a queen on the phone And very quietly you hear someone go.

So, and I didn't hear it until I got it home and put it on my headphones.

30:46

It was that faint.

But when I enhanced it, it's and all I mean is pull it up in the recording, you can hear queen.

So had I heard that at the time, I would have been able to drill down on which queen it might have been gut feeling it was Victoria because the church we were at was 19th century.

31:01

But it's things like that, that, that knowing because you know, you could say they could say queen, but then you've got to know who the Queens could have been.

So this is where like even though my I have specialist subjects that I will always bounce back to having a a good overview of history.

31:21

It can add so much.

It really can.

Absolutely.

And you know, kind of touching upon your areas of specialism.

I mean, you really do have an array of topics and intro and I know, I know they include things like Richard the 3rd, 18th in history, 19th century poor laws.

31:39

I mean, so extreme, but so that's me.

That's me.

But again, I understand it because I have the I can go from Russian royal history to something else equally obscure.

And it's like, yeah, totally different.

31:54

The two shouldn't go hand in hand.

But that's what's so brilliant about history.

You can look in so many different places and find something.

Oh, it's, it's a nightmare, though.

When I find something else, I think, well, that's interesting.

Oh, no.

And husband's like, you're going to buy more books, aren't you?

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, sorry.

32:13

It's, yeah, it's it's I, I love the diversity of it.

And, and also, you can't get bored.

Yeah, you, you can't, you can't get bored.

But there's always more to learn.

There's always more to find out.

And there is no, there is no stop to that.

32:28

So when you think you've reached a point where, well, I can't possibly learn anything else out about Richard the Third, you do.

Yeah.

And that's again the beauty of history.

There's always something else to uncover.

It's not fully told.

Well, let me tell you about Richard the Third, OK?

32:48

I always thought he was the hunchback nephew murdering scumbag.

I did.

I did.

I'll admit it.

Yeah.

I'm nothing if not honest.

And when I was writing The Battle of Bosworth Hall, I thought I'd better write a bit about Bosworth Field because that's the parody.

33:07

The title is a parody.

And the name of that The Battle of Bosworth Field.

And I thought I'd better write a bit about Richard the Third.

Then I started learning about the man and I started thinking, hang on, he wasn't this hunchback, nephew killing, nasty piece of work.

33:26

He he actually never wanted to be king.

He idolised his Big Brother.

He was an accomplished knight and soldier, which if he was this hunchback thing that Shakespeare portrays him as, there's no way he'd have been able to wield a broadsword on horseback or wear armour.

33:46

And that's sort of just learning those facts out.

We're like, have I been looking at him wrong?

And I completely changed my view of him.

And I talked to specialist historians because I wouldn't call myself a specialist.

I probably know more than the average person.

But there are historians like Nathan Amin, Matt Lewis, all of those kind who that is their focus, that that is what they focus on and, and talking to people like them and asking them their opinions.

34:13

And they're both Nathan Amman is Tudor, so he's Henry the seventh.

Matt is Richard the third.

I think he's I think he's the chair of the rich, the third society.

And even though they're actually really good mates, they've got diametrically opposing views on what Richard the third was like.

34:29

But the interesting thing is it's all from the same information.

They've just come to a different conclusion.

And, and that's what I find fascinating that I, I, I can, I find it quite easy to argue why would he have killed his nephews?

He really didn't have a reason to.

34:46

And yet someone who's protruder will say, oh, he killed them so that they couldn't come and claim the throne back.

Well, they were legitimate, so they wouldn't have been able to, they would have had to overthrow him, which is different.

And, and, and having all these sort of conversations about it.

35:02

And yeah, I, I completely reversed my views on him and, and I realised my views on him had been very, very heavily influenced by the general populace and Shakespeare.

And then you start thinking about, well, Shakespeare is writing for a Tudor monarchy.

Of course he's going to write Richard the 3rd as being the baddie because Richard the Third is who The Tudors overthrew to become monarchs in the 1st place.

35:24

So they're not going to paint him as a nice guy.

And it was all that.

It kind of, and it still fascinates me and, and I still enjoy learning more about him.

And I'll be honest, yes, he did go off the rails a little bit when he first became king.

35:41

But it's a bit like when we were talking off air about Countess Bathory and some of the stuff she did.

Was he doing it because he was trying to prove he was strong enough to be taken seriously?

I don't know.

But there is also, I think it was Matt Lewis told me that there's actually, I think it's somebody from the Tower of London that shows that he bought clothes for and it said the boys.

36:08

Well, he had a son who died when he was about 15, I think.

But the boys and this would have been the time his nephews were in the Tower.

So he was still buying them stuff.

Why would he have been buying them stuff if he'd planned to kill them?

It's it's all very.

36:27

Well, I think that's one of the enduring things that makes him such a fascinating character, that there is this myth and fact and it's all kind of merged together and you have to tease apart all these different opinions and quite frankly, propaganda that was put out at that point.

36:45

I mean, the fact that he was obviously defeated in battle, you've got this other line coming onto the throne.

They have to present themselves as being the the legitimate line that they deserve neither.

So what you have is this unrolling of history of, of building things and stamping the Tudor rose on everything and making The Tudors look so fantastic.

37:08

And of course in order to do that, you have to make Richard the third look so terrible.

Yep.

And the one that always fascinated me was looking at the portraits of, of Richard the 3rd and you see the surface of it with the, the hunchback and the the crooked nose and him looking like some terrible, evil, Quasimodo like character.

37:30

Yep.

But then take an X-ray of that same image and you'll see the portrait that lies beneath that, which shows him far less of that curvature of the spine, looking far more handsome, and you can see how history literally painted over his picture.

37:48

Well, the fact that the stories were told that his mum gave birth to him when he was two years old and he was covered in hair and warts.

I mean, you know, it's, it's he, he, I can't say he was a nice guy because I didn't know him, but he, I mean, he wasn't a womanizer like his Big Brother Edward.

38:08

Edward was a renowned womanizer, which is why it is not surprising that, and this is another thing I, I, you know, explaining to people, when people are saying, well, he was, you know, he, his, his first wife died.

Well, no, he didn't actually marry her.

He was betrothed to her, so kind of engaged.

38:24

But back then, betrothal was a contract, meaning you were going to marry officially, it just hadn't quite happened yet.

So you would have to break off that betrothal to marry someone else, which he never did when he married Elizabeth Woodville.

So he was technically, no, he was technically already betrothed when he married Elizabeth Woodville, which is why the children were classed as illegitimate.

38:49

But it's also why Henry the Seventh had, and I can never say this, Titus Rigeus or whatever it was called that said that the children were illegitimate.

He had them all destroyed because he wanted to marry a Princess, which Elizabeth's daughter Elizabeth would have been had she not been declared illegitimate.

39:10

And so he had that whole thing reversed.

My argument is that if, if, if Richard was that concerned about the boys fighting for his crown, would he not have been concerned that the girls might get together with a foreign Prince, have a baby that would then fight him for the crown?

39:32

If you're thinking about it in that, in that way, why did he, why was it only the boys that he got rid of?

Because the girls could have had boys and they could have had, I mean, the fact that, you know, we were constantly fighting with France and everything else, they could have, they could have gone, oh, sod you, Uncle Richard.

39:50

We're off to France and marrying a French or a Spanish Prince.

And then they come back with a 13 year old son who says, I think I'm the rightful heir to the throne of England.

I'm going to Rover Three.

It could have happened.

And yeah, I mean, it's even like in in Shakespeare's play when he says, what is it, my horse, my horse, my Kingdom for a horse.

40:11

People automatically assume that means Richard was going to do a runner.

Actually, it's more likely he was going to ride back into battle to keep fighting for his crown.

He was a soldier at the end of the day.

He'd been a soldier since he was a teenager.

He'd been, he'd been running the north of England for his Big Brother because Edward was too busy covering the South.

40:32

Because obviously there was still quite a lot of contention from him getting rid of the previous Henry and Richard.

Richard was covering the north, which is why he's got castles like Midland and everything else up in North Yorkshire, because he was looking after those neck of the woods.

40:48

So he was a seasoned soldier.

He and the fact that he did actually fight at Bosworth, Henry Tudor, he was there, but he didn't really do a lot.

But it was it was it.

The only reason Henry Tudor won, in my view, is because of his mother, Margaret Beaufort.

41:05

If she hadn't been, as I would say, calculating as she was, her son would never have got on the throne.

She actually had more DNA that should have put her on the throne than he did.

But she knew that nobody would accept a woman trying to take the throne.

41:24

It had to be a man.

And we'd seen that with Matilda sort of 150 years beforehand.

And although I think Margaret Beaufort was incredibly calculating, I don't like her, but I admire her.

41:40

Chutzpah, should we say?

She was very calculated and she was determined to make her son the king.

And she knew how to position them to manoeuvre the pieces on the board.

Oh yes, like a game of chess.

Oh, yes, she would.

41:55

She would have been.

I sometimes say this about these, these, these, these women.

And I don't mean to say these women in a, these women, but these women, these strong women in history, like Margaret Beaufort, Queen, Empress Matilda, Queen Isabella, all these women, if they were around now, they would be like billion dollar CEOs, do you know what I mean?

42:17

They'd be running or they'd be a president of a country.

They're, they're the way their brains worked in putting the pieces together to achieve the result that made the men look good was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.

42:33

And like I say, whilst I don't particularly like Margaret Beaufort, I still have begrudging admiration for how amazing she was.

I mean this was this.

For anyone who doesn't know who Henry Tudor's mum was, she was 12 when she got pregnant with him to a man who was like 1415 years older than her, one of the Tudor brothers.

42:53

She was 13 when she gave birth, 13.

And even back then that was young.

She never had any other children.

She was married twice.

Her her husband, the Tudor was, he was killed.

He was Welsh.

That's where the Welsh side comes in.

43:09

She got married twice more, never had any more children.

And there are theories that giving birth at 13's messed her up so badly she actually couldn't do it because she didn't.

I mean, there's reports that she nearly died giving birth, which obviously wasn't unusual back in the 14th century.

43:28

But yeah, thirteen years old, just 13 when she gave birth.

And that's just one of the things she went through.

She's like I say, don't like her.

I don't think I'd have got on with her, but I still have a lot of admiration for what she did.

Well, she became, you know, the the head of her household very young.

43:47

I mean, married young, has a child, very young, has this ailing older husband who then subsequently dies and she is effectively a child herself.

Yeah.

Again, just a fascinating character.

She is.

I think it's there.

There's some very, very interesting books about her Uncrowned Queen by Nicola Tallis or Doctor Nicola Tallis.

44:10

The Fateful Life of Margaret Beaufort, Tudor matriarch, Brilliant, brilliant.

I mean, it's, it's very easy to tell that Nicola is a massive or she's a Tudor, she's she's a Tudor historian.

But it's a fascinating book and so much information in it.

44:27

And I did actually read that to sort of learn about Margaret Beaufort and her life and what she went through.

But as I say, if she wasn't on Henry's side doing all of this, he wouldn't have become King of England.

No, absolutely not.

I agree with you on that one.

44:43

So to go from that to aviation history as I kind of mentioned.

Earlier.

Interests.

Yeah.

I mean, so polar opposite, but what is it about that that draws you in?

I mean any particular personal innovation or event.

45:00

I've been around aeroplanes since I was knee high to a grasshopper because my dad used to be.

Well he still is, but he does didn't do it as much now he's in his 80s.

He was an amateur pilot so flew gliders, light aircraft.

I first went up in a light aircraft when I was seven, I think went up in a glider when I was 11.

45:21

I used to go up to the airfield and help out in the school holidays when they had residential trips, so I'd be prepping the gliders ready for take off.

I even went on a couple of recovery missions to get gliders.

That because also glide has no engine and every year we'd go to the the local air shows when we were on holiday in Cornwall.

45:40

There was always a really good one, I think it was RAF St.

Morgan every year.

And I kind of just got fascinated by it.

And in all honesty, it was the noise.

I love the noise of prop aircraft like your, your, your Spitfires, your Hurricanes, your Lancasters, all of that.

45:58

And the Red Arrows.

Even as a young kid, I used to watch them with my jaw on the floor.

And then I can't remember how old I was when I, I realized that the, the place my dad flies from in Norfolk is called RAF Tibinum.

And it was a World War Two American bomber base.

46:16

And then I find out that the actor Jimmy Stewart flew from there, not token flew from there.

He flew from there.

He flew over 20 missions as the lead captain on the Liberators, the B20 fours.

And, and so it just started as I started to learn more about how to research things, how to read about things, how to learn about things, it kind of went from there.

46:37

And, and like with so many things, even even like my taste in music, you know, when I first started listening to bands like Bon Jovi in the 80s, I then was like, well, who'd influenced them and then who influenced them?

And it's kind of everything's got a history to it.

Obviously aviation's got a smaller history than some things.

46:55

And I just, I just what I find fascinating isn't so much about how they, they put the squadrons together and the bombing run.

It was how it affected the people, how it affected the pilot, the navigator, the Gunners, the ground crew, like the social side of it.

And also I get very excited when I hear World War, especially World War Two, of plane engines running and making loads of noise.

47:17

I have a thing about the sound of engines.

I love them, love them.

I'm a bit odd, no?

Well, I don't think you are because, you know, obviously I live by an RAF place and so I can completely understand the draw.

And you do, you kind of get used to the sound of it and it's just part of your everyday life and you don't realise it.

47:38

But there's, there's something really quite magical about going to some of the air shows that we have around here where you, you really do get to see them up close and the signs of them.

I mean, there's something beautiful about them.

How they get them up in there is beyond this.

47:55

Well, I think being the daughter of a pilot, I know, I do know the technicals, physics and actually the the airfield you live near.

My uncle used to fly hooks, so he actually used to live quite close at one point.

So yes, I do know the airfield you're talking about.

48:14

I mean the hooks are huge.

The Hercules used to see 130's huge and apparently they're very similar to fly to AAV row Lancaster, which it, it, it kind of quite mind blowing really when you think about it.

But yeah, I, I, when I go to places like Duxford, you know, the Imperial War Museum at Duxford and the fact you can get close enough to these planes to actually put your hand on them.

48:38

And it's a, it's not a mock, it's a real aircraft or, or my favorite aviation museum I've been to in the UK is the one at Hendon.

It's the RAF, I think it's RAF Museum London.

I think it's classed as Hendon.

And it, I mean, this place is huge, something huge.

48:53

And it's free.

The only thing you have to pay for is your parking.

And, and, and I can just go there and spend the whole day just sitting there looking at some of the aircraft.

It's, it's sad that you know, when, when that pilot recently went down in the Spitfire, it's so sad when you hear about stuff like that happening, but it is the risk that anyone who flies takes, you know, it's the same as, you know, racing motorbikes or whatever.

49:21

You know, your time might be up, but when you look at the, the death rate of the actual crews in those bombers, especially during World War 2, the social impact of it was horrendous.

And, and, and also the fact that for probably a good forty years after the war ended, most of those bomber crews wouldn't ever tell you that they were bomber crews because they were seen to be the sort of murderers and killers, child killers and everything else, because putting it simplistically, Churchill threw them under the bus really.

49:56

And that, and that's what I find it's, it's like hearing their actual stories.

My, I, I do have a favorite pilot from World War Two.

And, and anyone who knows me knows this, who this is.

And they also know that I, I used to joke and call myself the future Mrs. Guy Gibson because I think I'd have gotten very well with him.

50:16

But yeah, Guy Gibson, I, I adore him.

The stuff he was doing in his mid, early to mid 20s before he died, when you start thinking of the level of responsibility he had, not just the dam Busters, but in general, I, I think, I think he's fascinating.

50:35

But then again, I also find people like Leonard Cheshire fascinating for for similar reasons.

And, and I love finding new accounts of pilots who've from that era.

And, and also I found some reasoning of World War 1 pilots as well.

50:50

I mean, their their life expectancy was even shorter.

And them talking about what they went through on a daily basis if they were flying.

And then there's, yeah, it's very humbling to read these people who were so young, what they were actually having to do and the responsibilities they were having to take.

51:09

But I think this is again, why, you know, history is so important because, you know, we're we're coming to a point where some of these histories will be lost.

The people who experience those will not be with us for much for much longer.

That's just a fact.

51:25

And so we have to do what we can to record and understand and talk about those stories.

And I don't think we do that enough.

I don't think we reflect and we actually find those things out enough to really, truly understand what it was like for them as people.

51:41

Their stories.

Not just the overarching history, but their stories, yeah.

Yeah, no, I agree.

I agree.

I agree completely.

And unfortunately, there aren't many World War Two crews, air crews left or support workers or I mean, I can't remember who was I was talking to once.

51:59

They were telling me that a relative of theirs was support crew at one of the the air bases in World War 2.

And they remember having to hose down the inside of a bomber when it returned because it got shot up.

And obviously some of the crew had got shot up and they had to hose it down, clean the inside out so they could repair it and it could go back up again as fast as possible.

52:22

I mean, you know, nobody ever talks about that side of it.

Nobody ever talks about these pilots and Co pilots and engineers limping home these aircraft that are 4 engined aircraft on one engine just to try and save the last two crew that are still surviving on board.

52:40

No, I mean, it's, that's the side of things that I, I, I've got loads of friends who could tell you all the, the, the sort of battle formations and the strategies and everything else I want to know about the people.

Like, you know, how much training did they get?

52:58

What did they go through?

The fact that most pilots wanted to fly the fighters because the bombers weren't glamorous, whereas the bombers for me are where it's at.

I, I, I find them amazing.

They aren't glamorous as you spit fires new Hurricanes and everything.

53:14

But the, the bombers, yeah.

I mean, the Lancaster is my favorite aircraft and I, I will, I will die on that hill.

It's my favorite aircraft.

The Mosquito comes a close second, but I, I've never really been into that.

53:31

I love seeing the fighters go up, don't get me wrong, but I'm more excited if a Lancaster flies over.

That's when you'll get me in my garden sort of jumping up and down, squealing like a child because it's what that plane went through.

What those crews saw, what you know, they, they would have been, they would have been in formations literally seeing their friends just dropping.

53:53

And it's a cliche like flies around them.

And, and when you read about it was one of the ones that the, the guys who were based at Tibbenham, the 445th went through.

It's called Castle Raid.

And this was a raid that nobody really knows if they went off course deliberately or if it was just a navigational mistake.

54:15

But they got picked off the entire squadron for the 445th.

They went out with, I can't remember the figures now, but it was well over 30 aircraft and came back with four.

I mean, you need to think that's 10, at least 10 men on each aircraft.

54:34

And it was, it was one of the worst air disasters, I believe, of World War Two.

And you think waking up the next morning knowing that 3/4 of your mates have either died or been captured, I mean, how do you, how do you rationalize that?

54:49

And, and that's my interest in it.

It's, it's, it's the, it's the personal side, but it's, I, I do also enjoy sort of looking at what was on the aircraft and how many people had to, to man the aircraft and, and, and what it had to do and what it could carry and things like that.

55:05

But it's the, I love the social side, but I do love the sound of an aeroplane.

I, I, I always have and even even the family knows, like if we sometimes get where I am, we sometimes get the Apache helicopters coming over.

If one of my kids hears them then Mum, mum, the Apaches are coming so I can run outside and listen to them.

55:30

If you've been enraptured by the chilling tales and enigmas unveiled throughout our podcast Spectral Journey, now's your chance to become an integral part of our ghostly congregation.

You see, as we delve deeper into the mysteries of the past, we need your support now more than ever.

55:48

But fear not, for there are a myriad of ways you can help keep the supernatural flames burning bright.

Firstly, have you ever considered treating our podcast to a virtual coffee?

Picture?

It a humble offering to fuel our relentless pursuit of haunted histories.

56:05

Just head over to ko-fi.com/haunted History Chronicles and join us for a caffeine infused seance.

But that's merely the beginning of our spectral soiree.

For those intrepid souls yearning for deeper communion with the paranormal, consider joining our exclusive Patreon family.

56:25

From March onwards, our Patreon page will be a haven of clandestine content with weekly podcasts and daily long and short form offerings.

Yes, you heard it right.

Daily doses of the supernatural.

A veritable paranormal advent calendar for your soul.

56:44

So why hesitate?

Journey forth to patreon.com/haunted History Chronicles and become a patron today.

But wait, the spirit of generosity lingers still.

If you seek to flaunt your allegiance to The Haunted History Chronicles in more tangible ways, venture into our newly unearthed merchandise crypt.

57:05

From mugs that whisper their secrets to clothing that echoes with ghostly laughter, our shop is a sanctuary for the discerning paranormal aficionado.

Just visit tpublic.com and traverse to the Haunted History Chronicles shop page to adorn yourself with our spectral regalia.

57:25

Whether it's bestowing a virtual coffee, joining our Spectral Society on Patreon, or donning Haunted History Chronicles apparel, your support keeps the ethereal flames.

Alight.

Remember, every spectral contribution fuels our pursuit of unearthly truths, propelling us ever deeper into the realms of shadows and whispers.

57:46

So heed the call, dear listeners.

The links to our spectral sanctuaries await in the shadows of the podcast description notes, as well as our haunted haunts on social media.

Dare to embrace the unknown, to journey deeper into the veiled corridors of history.

58:02

For only together can we keep the ghostly embers glowing, illuminating the darkness with tales untold.

Now that is returned to the mysteries that beckon from beyond the veil.

What spectres await?

What secrets lie dormant, waiting to be unearthed?

58:21

Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

So over the years, you've obviously had the chance to visit and investigate lots of historical locations.

58:40

They're history and for their paranormal activity.

Yeah.

Do you have any that's been particular stand outs that have had, you know, memorable experiences for you that have just stayed with you?

Well, Tibenham was one.

I investigated Tibenham for a haunted experiment because we were trying out the Phillips experiment there and I had it's, I've spoken to sceptics about this experience and even they can't explain it.

59:12

But what was amazing about it was my my dad, he was the one that organised it for us, but he was always very sceptical, very sort of like paranormal.

Oh, it's all made-up.

No such thing.

And my husband and I were on the runway, and the runway is the only bit remaining authentic to the 1940s airfield.

59:34

And we were using a spirit box.

And I know there's a lot of people that are very sort of like spirit boxes.

But seriously, sometimes things can go very weird with them and you can't explain it.

So we're in Norfolk, deepest, darkest Norfolk, and all of a sudden we can hear American voices coming through on the spirit box, American accents.

59:56

Now there's no American air bases near there that they would pick up, they'd be able to transmit far enough to pick up from.

So that was, that was a bit odd because it'd been English up until the fact we walk on the runway.

And I know it's not necessarily proof of of spirit interaction, but one of the voices and it was the same voice each time.

1:00:13

He was either saying it was like Marley, Morley, like Marley sort of thing.

And he was very insistent and he kept saying this to us over and over again.

And then we would sort of say, well, can you tell us something else?

And he said 11.

Very distinct.

1:00:29

He said 11.

He also said the word brimble, which we're not quite sure what that meant, but it was the same voice.

And then loads of other voices kept coming in.

Anyway, I made a note of it, as you do, because you're noting down your evidence.

Didn't think anything of it the next morning because we were staying at my parents and my husband was talking to my dad about the stuff that we'd experienced.

1:00:50

And he said, oh, we've got this weird thing.

We have somebody called Molly and 11:00 and the date we were there was the we were there I think it was either we were there on the 28th or the 30th of November.

1:01:06

But on the 29th of November, a mission went out from there on 1944, on the 29th of November, 1944, and somewhere in the region of 31 B, 24 Liberator bombers took off.

1:01:23

And they were going to be meeting up with other groups from the Second Day Division, all of which were sort of scattered around Norfolk.

See a place like Hethel or Buckenham, anyone who's into aviation will have heard of.

And one of the Liberators was shot down and five of the crew were killed.

1:01:40

The other five were taken prisoner.

Well, the pilot of this aircraft, his name was Lieutenant Stanley Morley, and this happened on the 29th of November.

1:01:55

And like I said, I think it was actually the 30th of November.

We visited the airfield.

Now, you know, I know you can make facts of it, but this was weird.

Then when we started looking into where did the 11 come from, it was his 11th mission that he was shot down.

Now my dad, who had always been, he's an engineer by trade, mechanical engineer, not very easy to sort of convince even he was like, I can't explain that, that to define the one the the captain, the the captain of the ship that shot down his name's Morley in his 11th mission.

1:02:32

And we're there on the in effect 75th anniversary of his death.

It turned him into he's he's now a believer because of that.

I've got goosebumps.

I think that's an incredible experience.

That's just astonishing.

1:02:49

I've had others, I've had a few like that.

Another one I had was I was at Langard Fort in Felixstowe, which is in my top five favorite venues.

And we had a I've had loads of other experiences at this place.

1:03:06

I won't, I won't sort of go into too much detail right now, but there there was a case of it.

It was the the Rampod was in the steel bath and as soon as I walked away the red pod would go nuts like someone was panicking and I had a name come up on the obelisk and the psychic who's with me picked up on a second part of the name.

1:03:29

I looked it up and it was the name of a post World War One soldier.

So just after World War One, who'd they say he'd shot himself at Langard 4.

Yet he had told us he didn't do it.

That's what he told us.

And he was quite young and I think he kind of almost saw me as a mother figure because it when I was sort of talking to basically talking to this bath and like calming him down like I would a child who was upset.

1:03:56

The rim pod went from going me, me, me, me, me to me, like cut like someone was calming down, but I walked away and it was making a noise.

I have never heard a rim pod make until I came back.

So stuff like that have just, you know, it's, it's, I can't explain it, it, it might be something completely normal, like not paranormal.

1:04:18

But when you're given a full name on a device and you find that name and it fits the story that you find in the newspaper fits with what they've told you.

And there's no way anyone could have known it.

1:04:35

It's, it's really hard.

It's really hard to sort of dismissed, but yeah, the, the, the Morley incident gave me goosebumps.

I've had a couple of incidents where I've been given names on a novelist that has made me sort of, this is someone's definitely trying to tell you something.

1:04:53

But yes, there's, there's, there's lots of stories of things.

But yeah, the Morley one is one of my favourites because it made my dad, who was always very sort of, I'm a Yorkshireman.

I don't believe in that sort of thing.

He now if I have efforts and research I'm stuck on who he starts helping me because he finds it fascinating now because he's opened his mind up to it.

1:05:15

In fact, so much so that their house.

I've written about this in the new book.

I was at their house.

It was last year and I saw the bathroom door, which is at the top of the stairs.

The door handle go depressed down and back up as though someone was shutting the door from inside.

1:05:32

I thought it was one of my sons and I called them and they suddenly appeared behind me and go, what do you want?

And and I'm just standing there going, I've just seen the door handle move and my dad just pokes his head round and just laughing.

He went, oh, they're back.

I've never expected him to say something like that five years ago.

1:05:50

So, yeah, stuff like that.

I find you again has used history, like historical fact to prove something.

And that's where I think it's it's brilliant.

Are there any particular historical places or sites that you would love to explore for the paranormal that you just haven't been able to yet?

1:06:10

RAF Scampton, where Guy Gibson was based.

I, I, I would probably give my left kidney to get in there.

I'd love to do Castle Rising in Norfolk, where Queen Isabella, she Wolf of London was kept, because I think she's someone who history has painted very, very unfairly and people have seemed to have run with it.

1:06:35

Where else?

I don't know why, but Missouri State Penitentiary has always been one.

There is something about that place.

I feel kind of drawn to it in a weird way.

I'd love to go there And Southern Workhouse in Nottinghamshire.

1:06:52

I had some weird experiences there just during the day visiting so I'd love to get in there and actually really dig about and see if there's someone wanting to talk to us.

So if we kind of come full circle to one of the questions that I asked you at the start when we were talking about wool books, you know, one of them in particular is your most recent book, The Elements of Epping Forest, which wool does take the readers on this journey through.

1:07:20

It's vast, it's fascinating and intriguing history.

Do you want to just give us a brief overview of the the forest's historical significance?

I think the most common thing I found when I was researching was people didn't realize what a forest was for.

1:07:36

Most people equate forests with just the woods, and a forest was an enclosed area that was basically a Norman thing, and it was for the benefit of the royalty, or I suppose you could say the upper echelons in society.

1:07:54

And there's obviously quite a few around England.

I mean things like Sherwood Forest, forests, Abdain, the New Forest, these were all ones that were basically the, the, the, the, the like royalty and their self supposed point of that term.

1:08:09

Lords and ladies else and everything else would use to benefit them.

And you, you had to get permission to farm on them if you were the average Joe.

As time progressed, they stopped sort of the the the punishments and everything.

I mean, some of the punishments that were meted out for abusing the forest were pretty, pretty harsh.

1:08:31

Like you could, you could have your eye burnt out with a poker and things like that.

It was interesting that during the 17th century, however, they were using them a lot for shipbuilding.

And I, when I was researching for elements, I did, I did find some receipts from actually Samuel peeps, I believe it or not, for wood from Epping Forest and a couple of other forests as well.

1:08:57

But what it, it, it's a society in its own right.

I mean, when, when you look at the size of how big Epping Forest or the, the, the Waltham Forest as it was known and everything else, it was huge.

1:09:12

We're talking in the 10s of thousands of acres.

But what a lot of people think is when they drive through, they drive through the, the, the main road that goes through Epping Forest and they think that's it.

But no Epping Forest covered the whole area.

It covered.

1:09:29

Well, it actually, it did expand into London.

Then during the 19th century, it was seen as a health retreat.

So it, it kind of kept evolving.

It's never stood still.

If you like, is a, is a, is a place.

1:09:44

I mean, you think the 1700s you had Dick Turpin for for one, it wasn't the only highwayman who used the epic forest as is is hideout and where he committed a lot of crimes.

But it one of its unique things was it had one of the main roads through from sort of the races and new Market and places like that through back through to London.

1:10:06

And this this road was the carriages couldn't go through it fast because it was so sodden and watery and everything else.

In fact, it doesn't it it's still there, but it's not Rd. anymore.

It's been bypassed.

And that's where a lot of the highway robberies because the carriages couldn't go full throttle through, they had to slow right down because of how boggy it was and potholes and everything else.

1:10:27

And, and, and when you start looking at all these different things that experienced in the forest, I mean, even I remember when I first moved back to Essex in when did I move back to Essex?

I would have been mid 90s.

There was crimes being committed.

That was known that because it's such a massive place, gangsters were burying bodies.

1:10:46

They have done thousands of years, you know, people have been buried in there.

There's a, there's a, there's a legend that if all, all the dead bodies in Epping forests stood up, there'd be more of them than trees.

It's fascinating when you go to different parts of it, different types of trees and the different ages of the trees and they've, even though it's all part of the same forest, it feels different.

1:11:09

It's, it's, it's a, it's a beautiful place, a beautiful place.

So what are some of the kind of the most fascinating historical historical events?

Would you say that a part of its history?

One of the the weirdest things, and this is a weird thing, when I was researching for the Frankie Essex episode for celebrity Help, my house is haunted.

1:11:32

One of the things they said is we need you to focus on water, something to do with water.

And I'm like, we're in a forest.

I mean, it should be trees or something, be better.

But they were like, no, no, no, it's to do with water.

And it transpires that there was a stream that runs down the back of of the house and they'd found this story about this woman who'd been found in the middle of a field and they thought she'd drowned even though middle of field, no water.

1:11:56

Well, I, I looked into her case and I looked into the what would have been like the, the coroner's report for her.

And she'd, she had, she had drowned, but on her own.

She was an alcoholic and she drowned on her own.

Sick.

That sounds horrible, but it can happen.

Anyway, So I carried on looking and I found the case of Mary Jane Heathcote.

1:12:18

Now Mary Jane was from Stoke Newington in London and she had two young girls, Florence and Emily, who were I think 5 and about five and three respectively, and she had murdered them in the stream at the back of one of the hotels.

1:12:42

It's actually classed as Chingford where it is, but it's all classed as the Forest.

And this seems pretty horrific that she killed her two daughters.

But I started digging into the story and she'd also tried to take her own life as well.

In fact, the suicide note was found in her pocket that she'd left.

1:12:59

The reason that she'd tried, and this was late 1800s, the reason she tried to do it was because the two girls, they'd all had flu and obviously back then no medication.

The hospital would have been the local workhouse and people would try to avoid that like the plague.

1:13:16

And they just weren't recovering and neither was she.

And her biggest concern was what's going to happen to them if she died or if they don't recover, what's going to happen?

There's nobody to, you know, obviously you didn't get like disability benefit or anything like that.

1:13:32

So she felt the best thing to do would be to for them to, to die and go to God, because she'd discovered she apparently become very, very religious and would be here heard sort of shouting out scripture at the top of her voice and everything else.

1:13:48

She walked the seven miles from Stoke Newington with these two little girls, carrying all, all of them, I'll all of them still suffering with flu, the after effects of flu and drowned them in one of the streams.

And then she got in to drown herself on top of them, but it just wasn't deep enough and she didn't die.

1:14:07

So she went to the hotel nearby and basically said, I'm paraphrasing here, but basically said I've just killed my daughter's, can you arrest me?

Which obviously they did.

What's amazing about her story is the fact that even though she, she did, she, she, she killed her two little girls, she wasn't executed for it.

1:14:35

In fact, they actually declared her as being mentally ill, which is incredible for the 19th century.

She ended up her husband didn't divorce her.

He moved to Canada.

1:14:52

No, not to Canada.

Sorry to he went through Canada.

He moved to America, Portland Way, Oregon, and she ended up joining him out there when she got released from prison about 15 years later.

And this is where you think almost like a final destination thing, that maybe she should have died in that stream.

1:15:14

The boat.

And this is when my dad came in because he found this bit out for me.

I have to give him a shout out for 5 minutes.

The boat that she was on when it dropped her off on the first leg of her journey in Canada, because then she'd go Canada down to Oregon.

The boat turned to do the return journey and sunk with every single person on board perishing.

1:15:34

She'd just got off shortly after she met up with her husband, and there's no suggestion she was a Black Widow or anything.

He passed away.

She remarried quite quickly because at the end of the day she was in her 40s.

By this point.

She probably was illiterate.

1:15:51

She wouldn't have had her only thing she could be as a wife.

She married another Englishman who was living out there.

He died quite soon after, oh, about 10 years after. 5-10 years after.

So she married again and then she outlived her last husband for about by about three years, maybe less.

1:16:09

But what it got me thinking was apparently the fact this story death seemed to follow her, but there was no there was no sort of suggestion she was doing it.

It just, it was almost like it should have been her was the, the amount of suicides by water in the forest, which then led me to a really, really tragic story known as the suicide pond.

1:16:37

And there is an area in Epping Forest now we're talking about thousands of acres here.

There's a pond that supposedly anyone who visits it will drown themselves.

And there was a case of a young lad during COVID who travelled from, I think it was Croydon, and he had sickle cell and he was in a lot of pain.

1:17:00

And I say, and there's no judgement from me, but they said he'd traveled to Epping Forest.

And I remember saying to the husband, I reckon he's, he's, they'll find him at the suicide pond.

And they did.

And it's the fact that there have been more suicides by drowning than from what I could find in the reports, than anything else, which I find really odd for a forest that has trees and other things.

1:17:28

But yeah, drowning seems to be a very, very common way that people choose to take their life in Epping Forest.

I think it's just another layer though that people don't necessarily understand, you know, these very real stories just allow you into, again, being able to explore that their life, their life stories and how it, how this forest kind of becomes entangled in that.

1:17:57

And then obviously these accounts then become part of the forest's reputation and have that impact on how people perceive and view them as well.

And it does it.

It just becomes this very entangled web of of adding to that mystery, I think make such an alluring space to explore for its history.

1:18:18

Oh, definitely.

I mean, that's just one element of its history.

The reason the book was called Elements of Epping Forest is because I could fit most things into the four elements, so water, air, etcetera, etcetera.

And I mean, the fact that you had, you had N Weald Air Base, which was an RAF fighter base.

1:18:37

The fact that at a place called Lippitz Hill, you now have the National Police, Air ServiceNow before it became National Peace Air Service, it was a prisoner of war camp.

And that's where one of the I, I, they actually let me in to look around and it for that it was anti aircraft gun emplacements.

1:18:55

So I got to look at some of these old gun emplacements as well as looking at helicopters and stuff.

And it was like I was in 7th heaven, if I'm completely honest.

And they were telling me that, yeah, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've got a resident ghost.

Quite a few people have seen him.

We call him Herman the German.

1:19:11

And, and, and yeah, there's, there's, there's somebody who he appears, talks German and then vanishes.

And quite a few people have seen him on the back.

These are police officers who have seen him on the base because it was, it was a POW camp at one point.

And, and when you're hearing these kind of stories from like people who aren't going to make them up, they've got no need to make them up.

1:19:35

And, and you think there's so much stuff in there like like outbuildings that you find is like what was the issues?

We, we found one when we were exploring Cango's clue what it was used for, but it had the most ornate iron fireplace inside it.

Now, whether it was like the, it looked Victorian, this fireplace, whether it was somebody who sort of monitored the forest or I don't, I don't know because I couldn't find it on any records.

1:20:01

But when you're exploring and you're finding this stuff, it doesn't make you realise how much.

That canopy of trees is hiding.

And again, I think that's adds to the mystery because it is that unknown.

1:20:20

It is almost things being concealed.

And you touched upon something there that I think is again just another aspect of the the fascination of the the forest itself.

And that's the elements of the supernatural and ghost stories that are attributed to it.

Do you have any other examples of compelling tales that come out from the forest when it comes to paranormal reports?

1:20:44

Well, one of the places we were, the, the people I was with, one of them said he'd been there before and a psychic had picked up on soldiers running around.

And he said why would there be soldiers running around?

There was no Army base here.

And I was able to tell him that that that whilst there was no Army base, they did actually use the forest for training missions.

1:21:09

And that could be why there were soldiers.

And so we started sort of speaking in, I suppose, soldier link language, like come here, stop firing, all that kind of thing.

And, and we got responses back on on the EVP.

So, but those, those, those kind of things, it's like, why would someone pick on the soldiers in a forest?

1:21:29

Well, it's because they used it as a training camp.

Why would someone, I think one of the, the ones I had, that was quite amusing.

I was on that old road.

I was telling you about the old London Road and we'd gone, the whole family had gone.

It was middle of the day.

We'd taken the dog over there because I've got a very large German shepherd who could run for days given half the chance.

1:21:49

And so we thought we'll take him over there because you can get parts of the forest where you're not going to see anyone else.

It's completely you're so big you can be on your own.

And I'd taken out a couple of gadgets with me.

I'd taken the spirit box, I'd taken ovilus with me.

And I was trying to listen to the spirit box because the speaker was on the pick and the kids were arguing as kids, as kids do, and I was telling him to be quiet.

1:22:17

And quite distinctly through the spirit box, a woman's voice went.

And at the same time, the word silent came up on the ovilus whilst they're arguing.

And little things like that just make you.

1:22:33

Oh yes, we're not alone.

I don't, I don't always look into the sort of like the legends that I want to discover my own.

Or if I'm looking into a legend, it's to see if I can find historical validation for it.

1:22:48

But no, the the German at Lipitz Hill, the the fact that I did get from people who weren't there.

Yes, we've seen him, we've encountered him.

He's real.

Things like that.

It's it's there's so, I mean, I could probably do a second volume on Epping Forest at some point.

1:23:05

It's I, I barely scratched the surface.

It's it's an amazing place.

But for me, I think this, this is again, what makes it such a kind of an intriguing place that draws people in, visitors in, you know, this very rich, diverse history of which most people don't know, but then also this very diverse history in terms of the stories that shape it, the people that have shaped it.

1:23:33

And, and I don't know if you want to comment on that in terms of how you feel those will continue to appeal to visitors and to shape the the legacy of the forest if you like, so to speak.

I think, well, The thing is, I think people see the forest in, in, in different ways.

1:23:52

If I'm honest, I think there's some people who who do look at it as just being a nice place to go.

It's it's a nice place to visit.

They're not going to talk about any of the sort of the gruesome stuff.

They're not going to talk about the executions that took place there.

They're not going to talk about the murders.

1:24:09

They're not going to talk about the suicides, the ghost stories, everything else.

But then there's and, and they're the ones who go there because I mean, let's face it, trees are beautiful.

Trees have an energy and it is a lovely place to go.

Those people that are a little bit more interested in digging deeper, they might sort of start asking questions.

1:24:30

I mean, when I, I put, when I was writing elements, I, I did go on to, there was an Epping Epping sort of Facebook page and I said, I know people are going to probably tell me I'm nuts, but it's only got any good ghost stories.

Now There's there's a place in Epping called Knockers Pond.

1:24:47

OK, I have to keep a straight face when I say that.

And there is a story that I think it was in 1878, the milk boy very early one morning was passing the pond and he saw a hat and a coat folded up on the edge thinking and it was there was a suicide note accompanying.

1:25:08

So thinking that someone had killed themselves, he goes off and gets help and they drag the pond and there's no, there's no body in there.

Now this pond would have been used as a water source for that part of Epping in the sort of 1800s.

But then so stories about it sort of became quite rife.

1:25:27

But then this chap wrote to me and he said I've got a story for you.

And he reckoned that one night in the 80s, him and his mates, they were sort of 1718 years old, they were cutting through past Knockers Pond across the fields to get home.

1:25:45

And they saw a horse and buggy going through the fog and then basically kind of disappearing by the pond.

And that's when they heard about this story.

There's supposed to be a story of a coachman who I go disappears into the pond or comes out of the pond.

1:26:05

There's also stories about horsemen are meant, Civil War horsemen are meant to appear out of this pond.

I don't know about that, but the fact that he did actually say, yes, we saw a coach, I mean, my mates would all verify and he's he, he did say to me, look, it was 40 years ago, I can't remember the exact details, but he said I know it was enough to freak us all out.

1:26:27

And he said, yeah, we'd had a few drinks but that was it.

We hadn't been taking any like hallucinogens or anything else, but we saw something at this pond that we can't explain.

So, and that would have been part of Epping Forest officially.

So there are stories and people want to talk about them, but they normally like, now please don't think I'm nuts, but they will start telling you these stories.

1:26:53

So yeah, there, there, there.

I think there are people that will still go to the forest because it's just a beautiful place.

Like they did in the Victorian era when you had the various retreats there where people would go for tea and cake.

They would travel out from London on the on these basically they called them the buses, but they were huge horse storm carriages.

1:27:14

They would come out on those to take the water literally and the air at Epping Forest in these retreats that would serve tea and cake and toast and then go back into not quite so nice London.

And then when the trains came in, they were coming out en masse to use the fresh air of the forest.

1:27:33

But then you also get the more nefarious side where you do get killings and more unfortunate things that happen there.

And, you know, I think the energy from both stays.

1:27:49

So it's, it's really somewhere that can, it can, everyone can enjoy it really whatever your predictions are.

And just to kind of segue into another one of your books, I mean, obviously being a teacher myself, we can't not sit and talk about your book Paranormal Playground.

1:28:09

You know, the fact that it is about a school and you know, a school which a school also, which is I think the history of it is so fascinating because it does allow you this knowledge and this insight into Joseph Lancaster and his contribution to education and how his ideas really did help to transform schooling for for poor children.

1:28:32

And I don't know if you want to just kind of give a brief.

Of.

Some of that for people who maybe don't necessarily know about him.

Well, the first thing I'm going to say is that free, prime free schooling didn't actually come in in this country until 1891.

So the only way that the poor could get any schooling is if they could go to Sunday schools.

1:28:55

And Sunday schools were very strictly run.

A chap by the name called Robert Raikes is the one who's most known for it.

And they weren't really teaching them to read and write.

It was basically so they could read the Bible for for, to, to, to put no too fine a point on it.

1:29:13

Joseph Lancaster, he felt that although he didn't, he wasn't classed as poor, but he also wouldn't have been classed as affluent.

He was a London guy.

He felt that the poor had the right to be able to, to, well, to be literate.

1:29:29

And he started teaching them in his own front room.

He then sort of looked into, well, schooling costs money, but which part of schooling costs money will it supplies and teachers?

So how can we do this and make it cost efficient?

1:29:45

So someone who can only afford to give a penny a week to to teach their child the three Rs can do it.

And he came up with something called the monitorial method and the monitorial method.

And this is where most teachers, when I talk about this too, I see them visibly, Blanche, and I'm telling you, you, you could have a class of say 250 children and they would all be in rows and the rows would be ordered for what level they were in their certification because they had different levels of certification.

1:30:17

Now, at the end of each row, they would have a monitor, which would be a child who had to retain that certification and would be helping the rest of them attain it as well.

So you only had to have one teacher and then they would be looking after, they would be overseeing it all.

But then each row would have a monitor.

1:30:33

Hence it's called the monitorial method.

He then sort of had it so you had to reach a certain level of certification before you got a pen and paper.

Before that, you would be using chalk and slate.

Before that you would be using it almost looked like a baking tray.

1:30:49

It's sand so that you would trace the letters with your fingers.

What was the other thing that's expensive reading materials?

Books.

So there would only be two copies, one that the the lead teacher would have of the book and the other one would be on these large sort of a three sheets hung around the classroom.

1:31:09

So each pod of children would go to each one to learn and this is what he devised with the what's called the Lancasteria method.

Now the the thing to remember about Lancaster, it was non denominational.

1:31:26

Whereas at a similar time some are called Doctor Andrew Bell was coming up with a very similar method that was given to what are known as the national schools.

Now the national schools were not non denominational.

They were Church of England and it's where you see most schools now.

1:31:44

If you see such and such Church of England school, that's, they would have probably been a National School.

In fact, I, I, I went to one that I found all this out.

Subsequently I went to a school that was a voluntary aided Church of England school when I was growing up and I knew the school dated back to the 1800s, like old bits of it.

1:32:01

But now at learning what I've done now is, is the National School would always have had a church, a Church of England church attached to it.

So it was a very, very religious biased education.

It was still education, whereas the Lancasterians, they would take any religion.

1:32:20

And in fact, I looked at the registers when I was researching for paranormal playtime in the actual school and they did log all the different religions and the different religions I genuinely didn't know existed in the 1800s.

1:32:37

But yeah, so he, he set that up, unfortunately.

Joseph was an amazing teacher, but was not a good businessman.

And quite soon after the movement started, he, put it bluntly, was ousted because he had no clue about running a business.

1:32:57

And yeah, he, he, he also suffered.

It's, it's quite clear from the accounts, he suffered from a form of depression.

He ended up going over to America.

He ended up doing work in South America with schooling, but he died in America.

1:33:15

But his schools just went from strength to strength in the UK.

In fact, in fact, the British and foreign schools still exists all around the world, and that's all be traced back to Joseph Lancaster in his monitorial method.

Which is incredible.

And again, This is why I love the book because it does share some of that very compelling and fascinating history about what he did and the impact that it's had, that the legacy that it's had.

1:33:41

Yeah.

And and of course, the other side of that is that, you know, you're drawing on very real first hand accounts of, of experiences that take place that kind of hint to the paranormal and sensations and experiences reported in this location in, you know, the British School Museum.

1:34:00

And again, I don't know if you want to share some of the the compelling evidence that you came across for for part of your research in the book.

I'll share a couple because, you know, I want people to read the book, but like I say, I was writing this during COVID, so I wasn't able to do sort of big investigations with groups of people, but because they, the school had asked me that because it's an independent museum.

1:34:23

So if you are ever thinking about going to visit, please do.

It's, it's really interesting.

And The thing is about this, this is another place that people go, oh, children were murdered, children were abused, blah, blah, blah.

You don't get that feeling.

I can honestly say I have never felt intimidated whenever I've been there and I've been there a lot.

1:34:43

So they agreed that on some of the days when it wasn't open to the public, I could go in on my own during the day and do some investigating.

And as we all know, stuff happens during the day.

It doesn't have to be at night.

And I was in this, this, this long corridor and it's got huge windows and I'm five foot two.

1:35:00

I can't see out the windows.

And this was done deliberately, not so that I couldn't see out the windows, but so there was loads of light coming in but the children couldn't see out the windows and be distracted.

The windows overlooked what would have been the playground.

And so I'm sort of sitting there and the only other person on site is the chair chairwoman of of the museum.

1:35:24

There's nobody else.

The gates are locked.

You can't get in.

And, and I was just sort of running through some ideas for some experiments I was going to do.

And I heard this really girly laugh coming from the playground thinking that she'd let someone else in.

1:35:42

I radioed because I had a radio.

I radioed her and I said, is, is there anywhere else on site?

Because if someone's in the playground laughing and she went, there's no one there.

I'm looking out my window.

It's completely empty.

And so I sort of held my phone up to the window to take a photo because I say I couldn't see.

So I thought a photo, see if there's anyone there, see if she's lying or didn't see them.

1:36:02

There's no one there.

But I heard a girl laughing at the top of her voice, like really loud, like proper laughter.

And there's no one there.

There was no one there.

That was one of the incidents.

Another one is, is I was, it was when I was doing an investigation there and we were in the, there's a, the classroom that the kind of this, it's, it's a conventional classroom where it sort of goes up at an angle.

1:36:34

And it was about half 12 at night and, and we could hear kids Nat chatting sort of within earshot.

We could hear children's voices chatting.

And, and I sort of went outside to see because there's flats and I went outside to see if I could hear it out there and I couldn't, we could hear it inside the classroom, like children's chatter.

1:36:54

And it, it's just things like that.

It's just there.

There's been quite a few other things happen there, but it's just, but it doesn't ever feel intimidating.

It's the only place I feel slightly intimidated by is the headmaster's house.

1:37:11

And he has a reputation of slamming his front door if you don't shut it.

The weirdest thing I had happened there, and this is my favorite experience I've ever had happen at the school was when you go in, there's two houses, 2 semi detached terrace houses.

1:37:30

One of them would have been for the school mistress and one for the schoolmaster because they lived on site.

And I was on my own.

I didn't know where everyone was.

And that was the first door I found.

It's like really grand front door.

And through the window, I could see a woman with Gray hair like in an, in that kind of so early 1900s big font star, you know, and it's like a big bun and then a smaller bun on top.

1:37:53

And she was leaning over and I thought, oh, maybe that's where I've got to go in.

And I opened the door and I went straight in.

Door was open, unlocked it turned and unlocked and went in.

And I realized I was in private offices.

So I was really like, oh, gosh, sorry, came back out, shut the door.

1:38:09

But I'd seen this woman in the window.

When I finally found everyone else in the main school building, I was telling the manager this and he went, that's my office.

That door's locked.

It's key coded.

You can't have got in.

I said, well, I did.

I turned the handle and walked straight in.

1:38:25

He went, but you can't.

It locks automatically.

I checked it before I left.

And he went, show me what you did.

And I just showed him.

I said there was a woman in that window and I described what she looked like.

And I said, and I turned the handle and went in.

No, the door was locked.

I couldn't get in.

And he said there's nobody who works here who looks like that.

1:38:42

But that was the head.

That was schoolmistress's house.

I mean, it's, I think schools in general, if you ever get the opportunity to investigate a school, they just have this very unique atmosphere.

Yeah, they're unlike any other location, I think.

And so, yeah, it's, it's an incredible location if you do get the chance to, to experience.

1:39:04

And it's a book that I really do highly recommend just to give you that much broader historical insight, as well as obviously going into some of the research and the accounts that you've been able to draw upon to, again, just to help tell the story of the school.

It's, it's a great book.

1:39:20

It's, it's one of my favourites.

So thank you for sharing.

And you know, just to kind of conclude to come to another one of your books, because we can't not talk about it given that we talked about Richard the third, we have to talk about the Battle of Bosworth Hall, which again, fascinating history, fascinating location and has had some really intriguing characters as part of its story.

1:39:44

It has.

I mean, that's why it's called the battle, the Battle of Bosworth Hall.

It's, it is a play on words, but it also dates back to I think he was the 4th Baronet.

Wolston Dixie, who was a bit of a pugilist, also a bit of a a narcissistic misogynist as well, if I'm completely honest.

1:40:03

He had a tendency to argue with his fists with a lot of people.

And one of the arguments he got into was with one of the fellow land owners.

And he they because there was a public footpath across his land and but he didn't like people using it and he got into a fist fight with one of them over it.

1:40:22

Not the first, wasn't going to be the last.

And it became quite well known because he didn't admit he actually came off worse.

But obviously, yeah, a bit of a narcissistic couldn't admit that.

And I think Queen Caroline had come to visit him with George and had said to him, you know, she was trying to admit this account.

1:40:44

Was it?

It was documented, this account.

And she'd say something about, you know, I've heard of the battle of, you know, that what happened in Bosworth, Fiat Bosworth and blah, blah, blah, meaning 1485.

He turned around and he said, oh, yeah, it's fine.

1:41:01

I got rid of him though.

He assumed when she meant Bosworth, when she was talking about Richard the 3rd and Henry Tudor that he was, she was talking about the fight he had with somebody on his land, which is why I called it about Lobsworth Hall.

It was kind of a sort of parody on him because to say he was he is one of the most obnoxious characters in history I've had to write about.

1:41:25

He he, he really was a horrible piece of work.

I mean, just reading the book about the stuff he did to his first wife, his daughter is meant to be one of the resident ghosts there, the Grey Lady and her story.

Now, interestingly enough, she did exist and she did die at the age the history, the, the legends say she did.

1:41:45

Now I can't prove she died the way that the ghost stories say she did, but she definitely existed and she definitely died at the age.

Her story was that she was a bit of a Lady Chatterley type thing.

She was in love with the Squires son so he wouldn't have been seen as good enough for her by Woolston.

1:42:04

She used to go out to meet him in the wooded area near the hall.

Wilton got wind of this and laid a load of bear traps to catch him.

Now bear traps, if anyone's seen them, they are pretty horrific.

She found out, so she went out to warn him that to be careful of the bear traps.

1:42:22

She got caught in a bear trap herself.

Somehow she managed to free herself and get back to the hall where she Some say she bled to death, others say she died of blood poisoning.

We're not quite sure, but she did die as a teenager, which is what and that's documented.

1:42:40

She died as a teenager.

Wollstone never really admit it was his fault, but one of the legends is that she gets seen in the old house walking around and that blood appears every so often in the ceiling of what's called the Wollstone Lounge and it can't be gotten rid of.

1:42:59

Now I'm a bit skeptical when I hear stories like that.

I'm like no, it's a leaking pipe and blah blah blah.

Well, when I did a talk to the Bosworth Historical Society on basic ghost hunting, that if they knew enough about their own history, I didn't need to teach them that bit.

1:43:16

It was more about how what I did in the investigations and how the book was written.

One of them told me his dad was one of the builders who worked on the hall when they converted it into a hospital in the 1930s.

And one of these beams had a red state, dark red stain on it that no matter how many times they cleaned it, it kept coming back.

1:43:37

There was no pipes, no nothing.

But this stain, which is where the blood stain is reported to be, they could not get rid of it.

And I think one of the fascinating aspects of this house is just that there really are are so many intriguing characters.

1:43:58

But then also there really does seem to be this connection, which again, you bring into the book so brilliantly, this connection with these fascinating characters.

And then also some of the reported hauntings and the paradable activity.

And you really do see it go hand in hand, which is again, just what we've been talking about, how this is a perfect marriage.

1:44:20

Did you have any one particular kind of part of that sharing that story that you found really compelling in terms of seeing how that matched up?

I think it was, I mean, to be honest, all of it fascinated me.

I mean, the fact that when I that when I first heard about Bosworth Hubble, when I did the interview with the guys from Haunted Mag, two or three years before I even thought of writing the book and I knew there'd been three matrons running it as a hospital.

1:44:48

And since, well, one of one of the matrons names was mentioned when they did an investigation there, they said, oh, we had this.

I think it was like Mabel or something kept coming through.

But then subsequently, subsequent investigations, all three matrons have come through at some point to people, their name has come through to people who've not read my book, who don't know the history, which doesn't surprise me that a matron of a hospital would still want to be running.

1:45:12

I mean, let's face it, the hospital would have been her their lives that that's always I found quite compelling, though.

It was an interesting I've I've kind of discovering the story of Florence Dixie, who was married to known as Sir ABCD Alexander Dixie in the 1800s.

1:45:29

Her story fascinates me.

I mean, she's another one of these women like, like your Isabella's, like your Matilda's, everything else, like your Margaret Beaufort's, who was just so amazing and so ahead of their time.

And supposedly she's come through to a medium when I was there talking about her and said, you know, something about, I like this woman.

1:45:48

I want her to write my book.

And when things like that happen, you, you're kind of like, there's a reason why you get connected to people.

And I, I just think, you know, finding the information out one of the, one of the baronets, not a lot is known about him, Joseph Beaumont.

1:46:07

And I, I knew that he'd basically been an absent baronet because he was a prisoner of war, a Napoleonic prisoner of war.

And it was like, why does nobody ever talk about and why has he basically been written out the history?

So I decided to dig and find out.

Now I never know why I get the information that nobody else can find, but I found out why he was written out.

1:46:26

Basically, he, he was in a debtors prison because he owed money for gambling debts.

And, and I think he sort of said, well, to get out of this, I'll go on the boats because they were struggling for sailors or commanders, whatever during the Napoleonic Wars.

And so he went on the boat.

1:46:42

And then he becomes APOW in France and, and incurs even more gambling debts because I found a letter that he sent to his commanding officer asking for money to pay off his gambling debts.

So, you know, finding stuff out like that that even the Historical Society weren't aware of.

1:47:00

And then I can give them copy of the document showing all of this.

It just makes it really rewarding to add add to a place of story.

And not just to focus on the heroes of the story, but also the names that people have sort of not that have been written out unfairly or fairly, I don't know, but they were still part of the history.

1:47:19

And one of the stories that again, are just so fascinating and compelling and intriguing and horrifying is the story of James Douglas.

And you know, this cannibalism act at the age of 10.

And if you want to just kind of briefly explain what what happened there and how right that is part of the perception of the hall really.

1:47:41

Right.

Well, he's kind of indirectly linked to the Hall because he is an ancestor of Florence Dixie.

Florence Dixie was born Florence Douglas and the Douglas family, to be honest, there's it that.

Oh, Gee, it's worse than a series of EastEnders.

1:47:58

Their family, the stuff that they have.

And I mean the fact that her dad died in a very weird shooting incident that a lot of people think was suicide.

A lot of people think it was just an accident that he used to like to play with his guns when he was out.

The fact that her, one of her brothers died at 18 on the Matterhorn.

1:48:19

The fact that her other brother, one of his sons was having homosexual relationship with the then Prime Minister.

The other son was having a relationship with the very well known Oscar Wilde who supposedly wrote the line The Love that Dare Not Speak it's name about the relationship him and Alfred were having.

1:48:38

And supposedly the, the, the prison sentence that her brother, the the Marquis of Queensbury got imposed on Oscar Wilde is what killed him.

You had one of his son, another son, another gun incident.

1:48:56

You have Florence's twin brother James, who killed himself.

He, he, he, I think he slit his own throat in front of a mirror in a hotel in London, you know, and that was just her generations.

So the fact that you've got one of her ancestors in the 18th century who supposedly was so dangerous, they used to keep him chained up, but managed to get free.

1:49:20

And this is at Queensbury House up in Scotland.

He managed to get free and, yeah, killed and roasted on a spit, one of the serving boys.

And so basically it was written out of history, which is why if you look at the, the history books, there's, I think it's, I think it was the 4th, if off from the top of my head, the 4th Marquis, there's 2 fourths because they decided that he didn't really exist.

1:49:45

But that that's, you know, that's a heritage that Florence had to live with her entire life.

And, you know, was, was there madness in the family?

Possibly.

But the fact that her twin brother, who she was inseparable from, could not cope with her not being there and her being with a husband, that's why they believe he took his own life.

1:50:10

Yeah.

I mean, she she died at the age of 50 from diphtheria, which, yeah, obviously that was that was a common illness.

But she she was the one that pushed for the sale of Bosworth Hall and the estate to pay off her husband's gambling debts because he, he had no idea of money and he he liked to gamble.

1:50:32

He liked the horses, he liked turf.

He also liked to throw massive parties.

And they were known as Sir always and Lady sometimes tipsy.

But it, it does seem to be a, a sort of yeah, that that there was a lot of stuff in their family that they would have rather kept behind closed doors.

1:50:53

Yeah, tragedy really did kind of seem to kind of follow them, didn't they?

And.

And again, I think it's part of what makes Florence Dixie so fascinating because she is this tomboy, she is this kind of woman ahead of her times who really doesn't fit the mould, who has this kind of very intriguing family, for want of a better word.

1:51:16

And yet you see her going off, you know, this sense of wanderlust.

In fact, she goes on so many adventures, she doesn't seem to be confined by expectations of what a woman should do and how they should behave for her time.

1:51:33

You know, she's bold.

She seems fearless.

And her story is so integral to, I think, you know, the story of the whole because, I mean, she is just so effervescent.

It's it's kind of almost unnatural, I think, to not have her be front and centre.

1:51:51

She seems such a big part of its story.

I wish more people, I mean, I, I've, I've been saying ever since I wrote Bosworth that at some point I will write a book about Florence because nothing's really been done on it.

But you know, it's not something I'm going to rush because she is amazing.

1:52:08

She is.

I mean, you've got this, this 5 foot tall woman, Alexander.

ABCD was 6 foot two so they must have looked quite comical together.

She cut her hair short because then it was easier to do the activities she liked.

She invented.

1:52:23

She didn't like the fact she had to ride a side tunnel so she invented a tire that still looked acceptable but meant she could ride astride.

She had to postpone her wedding to ABCD because now regards to what people think about hunting.

She got injured in a hunting attack where her she got kicked in the face by a horse and broke her chore and her teeth.

1:52:44

And so she didn't think it was an idea to get married with her face sort of mullered.

She when she went to Patagonia, which is one of her books across Patagonia, she was hunting and, you know, they, they they were hunting for food.

They weren't hunting for pleasure.

1:52:59

This is, this is an important distinction.

Yeah.

She was riding and hunting with the dogs and everything as much as the boys were.

There was no sort of, you're a girl, you stay home and cook.

They took it in turns.

She was just as good at her brothers at all these kind of sort of pursuits and everything else.

1:53:18

But it was actually the experience she had in Patagonia that stopped her hunting and then wrote stuff about against bloodsports, sports she'd been doing her entire life.

She also became a vegan following all this.

So she went from almost a 100% carnivorous diet to veganism.

1:53:39

She, I'm not into football, but she, she really pushed women's football in.

We're talking 19th century here.

She was pushing women's football, saying the women should should be able to play just as much as the men.

I mean, this woman was, should be a feminist icon in my view.

1:53:58

More people should know about it.

I mean, one of the worst things that I think happened, and I do talk about this in the book, is she was very outspoken.

She was a writer.

And one of the things she was talking about a lot was the Irish question.

And they'd lost Bosworth by this point, they were living near, I think it was near Windsor.

1:54:16

And she's she was a dog person.

She always had dogs.

And she got attacked by two, say, women, but they were men posing as women with very strong Irish accents.

And the only thing that saved her being stabbed was the whale boning and a corset and the fact she had a very large angry Saint Bernard, I think it was who she'd been walking at the time when these people attacked her.

1:54:42

Of course, she reports it.

She's been attacked.

She can see the damage to her dress where it's caught the boning.

But it got written off, even though there were eyewitness reports of these two strange people, strange Irish people turning up at the station.

1:54:59

They were seen in a cart.

It was, it was said that she made it up for attention.

And you just think, you know, she was a strong woman and she was being silenced again.

She, she should be a feminist icon in my view.

1:55:14

But I think as we, we were talking about it as women in general, I think society gets scared of women like that because I reckon had it been a man who'd been stabbed, they would have investigated it a lot more.

Oh.

Absolutely.

1:55:31

Honestly, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you.

And you know, I mean, we could spend literally all night.

Going different books and.

Topics and conversations.

But you know, again, it's, it's the beauty of history, I think, and the beauty of what you and I both love.

1:55:47

But you know, I hope that for people listening, certainly they, they get a flavour of you and your writing and your books because they are such joys to me to read.

And oh, thank you.

I'll make sure that all the links to your podcast, your website, your books are readily available.

1:56:06

Because if people haven't read something from you or heard your material on your podcast, I recommend all of it.

You know, they won't be disappointed.

So, you know, those will be all easy to find on the website and on the podcast description notes to to find you really to go from there.

1:56:22

Well, don't forget I also write for Haunted Magazine, so if you you you subscribe to Haunted Magazine, you'll have read my pieces in that too.

Absolutely.

How could I forget that given that comes through all the time to my through the mailbox?

But yeah, it's I mean, it's incredible all the various places that you are part of and the, you know, the contributions that you make in terms of public speaking and lectures and writing and just being able to to kind of have the the kinds of conversations that you do on your podcast.

1:56:54

It's incredible how how much you do and how hard you work behind the scenes and front and centre and sharing history.

I think like you said, if it if it gives you pleasure, you put the work in and it gives me pleasure.

1:57:09

And it's so different to my day job.

Yeah.

And I, I appreciate give beginning the opportunity to talk about it.

You know, I still sort of expect somebody one day to go just shut up, Just shut up.

But they haven't yet, so I'm sure it's coming.

1:57:25

Not on my podcast.

We can talk history and the paranormal all the time.

You're welcome back anytime.

Oh, thank you.

Honestly, thank you so much for your time and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody, Bye.