In the Shadow of the Forest: Ellen Hayward's Witch Trial

0:30

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

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0:46

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1:16

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1:40

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2:01

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story and every story has a history.

And now, let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:21

Greetings, intrepid listeners, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles, where we unravelled the threads of history in the supernatural.

Today, we delve into the shadowy depths of history, exploring the dark chapter of which persecutions that plagued the quaint landscapes of England.

2:40

We have a gripping tale to share, one that transcends the ordinary and delves into the extraordinary.

The Forest of Dean, nestled within the enchanting Gloucestershire countryside, hides secrets that echo through time.

Unlike its larger counterparts, this ancient royal forest has seen its fair share of trials and tribulations largely unknown beyond its borders.

3:06

From medieval hunting grounds to the lifeblood of Tudor warships, the forest history is as rich and varied as the characters who inhabited it.

Today, our focus zooms in on one such character, a woman who found herself entangled in the web of accusations and hysteria surrounding witchcraft.

3:26

Ellen Haywood emerges from the shadows of the Forest of Dean in the late 19th century with a unique and fascinating life story and one that saw her accused of witchcraft.

Joining me in the podcast is a special guest, a paranormal investigator and author Rachel Haywood, no relation to Ellen, who resides in the very area where this dark story unfolded and who will help shed light on this interesting case.

3:55

Before we dive into Ellen's tale, let's help set the stage.

Picture the Forest of Dean, with its unique language and eccentric inhabitants.

In 1878, Ellen Haywood, pregnant with her fourth child and having faced hardships, crosses the river from Arlingham.

4:16

Life then took a turn for the worse as she and her children found themselves in the grim embrace of the little Dean workhouse.

Fast forward three years and Ellen resurfaces in Cinderford, seemingly on the path to a better life.

In 1905, a local man named John Markey accuses her of witchcraft and thus thrust Helen into a national spotlight.

4:41

The accusations stem from a bizarre series of events involving stolen money, an asylum, and a community gripped by hysteria.

As Hazel sticks were brandished for protection against dark magic.

Ellen found herself facing a court trial in Little Dean Jail in 19 O 6.

5:01

Accused of using witchcraft, she vehemently defended herself.

Her subsequent trial is an interesting one, one that took many unexpected turns, something we will examine in the podcast.

Join us as we explore Helen Hayward's life and the thin line between superstition and reality and the impact of a single accusation on a woman's fate.

5:25

Welcome to the chilling tale of witchcraft in the Forest of Dean, where history and the supernatural converge, and find out what exactly did happen to Ellen and who might have had the last laugh when it came to the burials of some of the protagonists involved in the case.

5:42

So get comfortable as we start to examine the life of Ellen Haywood and this extraordinary case.

Hi, Rachael, Thank you for joining me on another podcast.

You've got a rather incredible story of a woman to share with us this evening.

6:00

Do you want to just launch straight in and and tell us about Ellen Haywood?

A couple of months ago decided to start writing and I've written a few bits and bobs and I suddenly remembered that she was local and that there was a lot of information at little Dean Jail about her.

6:23

And I I thought, well, I'll have a, you know, have a look to see what there is and there's there's all an awful lot of information out there about her.

And and it's funny enough, it was it was the end of her story which actually triggered the interest, is the fact that where she is buried, the policeman who had her arrested is actually buried opposite her.

6:49

Gosh, that's a peculiar twist of fate.

Yes, yes.

And she died before him.

And I just thought, that's that's interesting, the fact that she, although they believed her to be a witch, she never, although she denied in court that she was a witch, she was quite happy to accept the terms of endearment, the nicknames that she was given like like Wise Ellen and Old Ellen, she obviously and she practised some of the elements of witchcraft as in herbal remedies and things like that.

7:27

The fact that she's buried on consecrated ground opposite the person who tried to have her tried under the witchcraft act, I I just found really fascinating.

And that actually made me dig a lot deeper.

7:42

Well, it's a curiosity, isn't it?

It's something that captures your imagination, because you've got to wonder as to how that came about.

Whether, especially if he died after her, if there was a request for him to be buried there, or if it was something that the community did.

7:59

I mean, you've got to wonder, haven't you?

Because it's it.

It doesn't seem by coincidence.

It seems a strange, a strange coincidence most certainly.

I would like to think, if I'm honest, I'm not going to say that.

I I think it's a fact.

But I would like to think that it was the last laugh by the community.

8:19

Yeah, that's that's what I would like to think because the community really loved this woman.

She helped them enormously and her trial, when she was taken to trial, the community turned up and there is a report somewhere.

8:39

But it's so annoying because I can't find it.

I'd bookmarked everything and then lost a lot.

But during her trial there is a huge commotion outside and the judge sends the court, one of the court orderlies, to go and find out what all the noise is about.

8:55

The court orderly goes out there to find this mass of people and presumably either a ringleader or the head of the this this congregation thrust these letters into the court orderly's hand.

And they're not there to condemn Ellen, they're there to support her.

9:13

And these letters, there's 30 letters in support of this member of their community that's charged with witchcraft.

Which again is is somewhat of the the different aspect because you don't get, you don't get things like that happening in the majority of them, far from it.

9:31

I mean, I think it would be useful if if we kind of went back and started from the beginning and you just kind of gave that overview because I think I think it helps to understand how we then get to the point of the trial and and the significance of the community getting behind this woman.

9:48

I can't remember when the Severn Bridge was open, now the original Severn Bridge, but let's say late 1960s, early 1970s, the Forest of Dean was really cut off from the rest of England.

So the only way to get from the forest into the rest of Gloucestershire was to go either by ferry, which was, I can't remember which side of the river it where, what it was called on the other side of the river.

10:16

But on the forest side it came over to sort of Newnham way and this lady, Ellen Haywood in 1978 came over.

It was from Arlingham, that's right.

And she came over to Newnham on 7.

10:33

She was late 30s.

She was pregnant with a fourth child, her third child having recently died and had the other children with her.

There's not much that's known about her initially.

What they do find that is fairly recent.

10:49

After her arriving, she sets up home.

But obviously somebody has spoken to the authorities because a doctor in the local constable go in and basically find them living in absolutely deplorable conditions.

11:06

Their beds are straw, the food is mouldy gone off.

There is they're fire.

They're basically burning furniture to keep themselves warm.

And so Eleanor and her children are carted off to the poor house, and for the next three years, you don't hear anything about her.

11:27

There's just nothing at all.

But then, three years later, she pops up in Cinderford.

She.

Is registered on the electoral register as being a dressmaker and is is doing reasonably well for herself from all accounts.

11:46

But then in 1901, she changes her profession and becomes a herbalist.

Now during this time, she gets the title of Wise Woman and Old Ellen, which you're all leaning towards her being classed as a witch.

12:07

And she also refers to herself as a phrenologist, which is reading the bumps on your head to be able to tell your personality and things like that.

And she is really well known for helping people and the people's livestock for for illnesses.

12:25

You have those those reports of farmers coming from Hereford, they're coming over on their gigs, which is like a pony and trap kind of thing and they're bringing their livestock with them for her to treat.

And now I know from where I am now to go into Hereford to drive, there is about 40 minutes.

12:47

So if these farmers are coming with their with their pigs or whatever they're bringing over, you're talking about half a day's journey.

It's going to take you.

So it's half a day to get to her, plus half a day back again, depending on the time of year.

13:05

They've obviously think an awful lot of her for her herbal remedies.

They wouldn't be coming over on a whim.

And on the other side of the coin, you've got reports, documented reports of seven, seven girls coming from Cheltenham and they're coming over because they've got handmaid's knee and probably the onset of arthritis and things like that and they're taking their their days off to come over and get treatment from her.

13:37

So she seems to be very genuine and is helping the the community while all this is going on.

There's a family in Mayhill which is in Gloucestershire and the locals will know Mayhill because you can call yourself.

13:58

I think it's you can call yourself a forester or something.

If you can see the trees from Mayhill, and there are a group of trees there which stand more proud than any of the others, there's a gentleman, Marquis, and he'd heard of Ellen's second sight and her ability to cure animals, and he'd had some money stolen off of him.

14:23

So he went to Ellen to see if she could tell him who it was.

Don't know the it's not recorded whether she does or not, but what she does say to him is that he's unwell and he should go home to bed and he needs to rest.

14:39

So he does this for a few days and then it's recorded.

And I quote that all hell broke loose at his home.

One of his daughters and one of his granddaughters, well, they went insane.

That's how it's recorded.

And they were carted off to the local asylum.

14:58

His wife then ran off into the woods, disappeared for about a week.

She comes back a week about a week later, holding a stick in her hand and says that it's a protection against witches.

15:14

Her son or their son then goes, loses his grip as well and there seems to be some kind of altercation.

And he ends up with taking a spike, possibly a wooden stick, We don't know, but he stabs it into his own eye.

15:31

And so he goes off to the asylum as well.

This information, because we are talking about sort of the early 1900s, it travels like wildfire.

It makes the local and then the national newspapers, people around the forest start carrying Hazel sticks.

15:53

They're claiming that it protects them against bad magic.

And all of this in the newspapers gets to the ears of Parliament and of course the laws of witchcraft are still are still upheld.

At the moment they haven't been resyndicated, although they're barely used.

16:12

Basically, Parliament then gets hold of the of their local Constabulary in the forest and tells the police that they've got to sort this issue out.

And the Sergeant William Packer, that's the gentleman that ends up buried opposite Ellen, is told that they need to bring a prosecution against Ellen because he is.

16:43

He is using certain craft or means of device, to wit by pretending witchcraft to deceive or impose upon one of Its Majesty's subject and that comes from James Davis.

James Davis is another member of the community and it's a bit confusing this because it seems like there is a conspiracy against Ellen and I get the feeling from what I'm reading that Sergeant Packer has to pin the blame somewhere.

17:16

And so he speaks to this Mr. Davis, Mr. James Davis.

Because Mr. Davis owns some pigs, they've become unwell.

He asks Ellen to help, and before Ellen can actually respond, he turns up with money, and asking her, you know, pleading with her to help, Ellen tells him that her he's poorly.

17:41

I wonder even if it's swine flu the way that it's it's being spoken about because she tells him that he's poorly as well as the pigs, and he needs to go home.

He needs to rest.

But instead he goes straight to the place and makes a statement, whereupon in May 1906, Ellen is summoned to court at Little Dean Jail.

18:04

Unfortunately, I because we're doing a podcast, you can't see the pictures, but the pictures of Ellen Hayward.

There are photographs of her, which again, is really rare in witchcraft cases.

So imagine a very slim, small, elderly lady with a long black coat on, a black brimmed hat pulled down over her hair, which seems to be in a bun and her black handbag, and she represents herself in court.

18:38

I think it's brilliant.

And so she turns up dressed like this.

There are pictures of her and they say to her, are you a witch?

She says, I'm not a witch, I'm a phrenologist, and she agrees with Mr. Davis's testimony, but she strongly denies giving him anything to make him.

19:00

I'll giving any of his animals to make you male, She says the only thing that she gave him was a cup of tea.

And she even says, you know, she can't put spells on people.

She certainly can't put spells on animals during the case that's being heard.

Mr. Davis, I get the feeling, is probably drunk to be honest, because he doesn't apparently make any sense during the during the trial, he can't remember the timeline of events and he's he's talking a load of gobbledygook from all accounts.

19:35

I mean some somewhere during this point where, as I said, there is this altercation going on outside, a large amount of noise where the judge sends the court orderly out who comes back with these letters and says, you know, there's a group of people outside, there is a crowd outside, but they're not here to condemn Ellen, they're here in support of her.

20:00

And basically the the trial gets laughed out of court.

Which again is I think part of the the interesting and unique aspect of her case because she is such a fascinating woman.

I mean, if we think about her story and the various intervals that you've just given that brief overview from overview of, you know she's been in a workhouse with her children, so there's no husband on the scene.

20:26

She's got a number of children that she is the sole provider for, which for a single mother during that period of time, that's not an easy thing to do.

You know, there's not many professions paying enough for a woman to keep her children, which is why so many ended up in the workhouse where they then stayed.

20:45

You know, that was that was their lot.

Yeah, I mean, there does seem to be a strong possibility that she was kicked out of her home in altering them or in that area because she has children by different men.

21:04

Yeah.

So there there certainly isn't anyone providing for her at all.

Well, there was no social care.

There was no there was no welfare.

There was no, you know, support, financial support, housing support.

21:21

There was nothing of that kind.

Your only option was either you starved to death, you lived on the street, or you went into the into the poor house.

It was that simple.

The only other option was prostitution.

Yeah, which we know a lot of women turn to.

But she seems she seems incredibly resilient and resourceful because she somehow comes out of that situation to then be set up, first of all as a dressmaker, which suggests skill.

21:50

It suggests a really good work ethic that she's providing for her family, that she's making do, that she's that she's all of these competent things.

And then to then also make that transition then into the, you know, the herbalist being in the community, being central to the community and to have that kind of good standing and that name and that reputation.

22:15

So much so that she's being sought out by people from quite considerable distance, where it's it's no, no small task to take up that journey to come and see her again.

There's so much to her character that she must have been very credible, very direct, very easy to engage with and knowledgeable And again, all really positive attributes that I think you then see coming through in the fact that she's so well supported by the community.

22:47

They've really rallied around her.

Yeah, I mean the forest isn't the easiest place to get about.

Even today the there is a public transport of a bus route.

It's not brilliant.

The main roads are OK.

23:05

But if we go back out, you know, just over 100 years, the main roads weren't probably really in existence.

If they were, they were nothing more than dirt tracks to get to Cinderford from Hereford, Cheltenham, anything like that.

23:23

That is an arduous long journey.

So you know, her name must have meant something for people to be willing to travel that kind of distance and that much discomfort to go and see her.

And again, I think that just speaks volumes to the kind of service and care and reputation that she had in what she was offering people and people.

23:50

People don't go out of their way to support people in witchcraft trials.

I mean, we see that, don't we?

History supports that, that it doesn't happen very often because the fear is, and rightly so, that if you spoke up in support of that person, that that could mean that you then had similar judgements put upon you and that could put you in in harm's way and your family in harm's way.

24:17

And yet they really do rally around her and come to her aid.

And again, I think it speaks volumes about her character, but you also see it in her ability to present herself to the court and to speak for herself.

24:33

She was.

I mean, she wouldn't have had an education, but she's clearly an educated woman who has many, many skills to survive and do well in an environment that is actually quite hostile to single women.

And yet, like you said, there's something really quite admirable about her character that really does kind of set her apart.

24:56

And it's it's really quite.

Bravery.

To go in to a court which would have been completely male orientated and you know to just to stare them down and defend yourself, that takes so much courage.

25:12

And the fact that she is being so bold as to to rebut their statements, you know, to say no, she's not, she's not a witch.

She's a phrenologist.

She's almost throwing science back at them, that she is capable of all of these things.

25:27

And again it's there's something like you said something very courageous in that, something very intellectual and something very calculated and understanding.

It's all it's very savvy.

She kind of seems to be very I do.

Wonder if she was England's first feminist?

25:45

God.

Possibly.

You know that you hear, you hear tales from time to time of women, you know, throughout the throughout the world that stand up against whatever kind of tyranny, whether it's creed, colour, whatever, or just being a woman.

26:04

They were doing that in the 50s and 60s.

She was doing this in the 1900s.

I mean fair play to her.

But I think she does live up to that name of wise woman because she like I said she does seem to be very wise in all the right kind of street smart type of ways and very clued up and just unapologetically self assured in in situations where most people would crumble.

26:32

And yeah there's like like I said there's something very likable about this this woman because nothing seems to get her down.

Not the work not going into the workhouse not going into abject poverty and coming out of the other side of that not being thrown into a court scenario where she could have everything taken away from her.

26:55

She seems to just be able to to get on and cope.

And yeah, she she'd been marvelous during the Second World War, wouldn't she?

Wouldn't she just a bit, yes.

I mean she she died in 1912, so she died obviously before that, before we have the Great War and anything like that.

27:15

But yeah, I just think she was an amazing character and it's it's such a shame because it is it's characters like that that you need to be in interviewing on a podcast, not the likes of me.

27:30

He used to be brilliant.

I could, yeah.

She'd be.

An amazing woman.

She'd be one of those ones that, you know, when you have the question, if you could have anybody around for a dinner party from the from the past, which six figures would you would you have from history, coming and sitting and having dinner with you?

27:46

She'd be one of those that you'd want at the table to kind of have a chat with.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

But it is such an interesting case, partly because of her character and the way she's able to to be so bold and to stand there and to carry herself with that kind of dignity and self-confidence.

28:06

But also the, like we've said, the support that she gets from the community.

And I think what is interesting is that when you look at similar trials where the person on trial, it has the support of the community around them, that that often looking at historical cases of that kind where you see that community support the swing does seem to be in favour of them coming out of it without prosecution.

28:32

Unlike the plethora of of cases where the person is on trial, nobody comes to their aid, nobody comes to act as a character witness if you like.

And so nobody speaks for them.

And obviously we know what happens to the majority of of those people where that has been played out in that manner.

28:54

And so it these types of cases, these small types of examples where people step in from the community in support of someone does I think speak to the power of the community.

29:11

Whereby if they feel very strongly that there is a miscarriage of justice happening here and this person is being slighted and then named tarnished.

And what is being presented as as, as wrong as fact that this person is a witch when they really don't believe that they deserve that when they get behind that person.

29:35

You do see typically from my experience it go more favourably for the person on trial and and and that I think is a really interesting part of the the journey of exploring witchcraft trials and persecution to realise that sadly in a lot of cases people didn't speak out, but where they did you saw some really quite positive outcomes.

29:59

Yes, I mean I think as well there was in her case because it was so late, but you know I think it was in 1950s that the IT was the the witch actors rescinded.

So there was more common sense applied in her in her trial as well.

30:21

And I think it it was obvious that she had nothing to do with what was going on with the market.

She was basically used as a scapegoat to shut Parliament up.

Well, that was the plan and it's it's good to see that.

30:36

It's good to see that she was listened to by the community and they actually, they stood by her.

And you know to stand up against Parliament, it's all very well standing up against your local court, but they were standing against Parliament as well.

30:53

That's big.

This one woman takes on in her own way, takes on the British constitution, you know, constitution, that is the law that is Westminster and wins.

Yes, she takes on a juggernaut.

Yeah, yeah.

31:08

And it's just her and her handbag.

I just think it's brilliant.

In a little coat, yeah.

I don't think it's great with no savvy lawyer by her side, just her and then the community with their support coming in as well.

And it's it is.

It's like a David and Goliath type story, isn't it?

31:24

Of it is.

I think it would make a brilliant short film or mini series.

I really do.

31:40

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34:26

Now back to the supernatural stories you won't want to miss.

What's coming up next?

I think it's.

But I think it's a really fascinating one because I think you touched on something just then that is so important, which is almost how this community does get embroiled in in the kind of the whims of government in the sense that you've had this, you've had this kind of national attention because of what happened to the Marquis family with some of the children.

35:05

Something happening within that family whereby it's made the press because their behaviour has been so extreme and it's had that kind of attention.

But then alongside that you have obviously still threads of fear around witchcraft, very much playing out with people in the community having their protections to to to kind of fight off that kind of evil.

35:32

So you've got these kind of think these threads all coming together and of course you then got government coming in because they've seen this and it's well, we've got to do something about this, eradicate this, they get involved basically.

And what is that something quite small within a local community then becomes this much bigger deal whereby like you said, it's almost like they needed something to kind of be the the focal point in order to get all of this just brushed away, put aside so that they could move on.

36:06

And it it's just a case of when you then have somebody of her reputation with the kind of the names that were being associated with her and the job that she was doing in itself.

She was that easy mark, that easy target and.

Exactly, Yeah.

36:22

It's.

It's almost like a but it is almost like a when you when you really think about how it played out in terms of how she was stitched up, if you like, it was almost like a comedy of errors.

I mean, it's really quite nonsensical.

36:39

It is, yes, the last laugh.

Yes, she does.

She's brilliant.

And like and like you said, I think you have to you have to wonder whether the community then felt the same way by putting them together the way that they did with their burial plots being so close.

36:56

Because it's it is almost it almost, It really is almost like a comedy show of how could you come to that kind of a conclusion with that kind of a story and how does that make sense?

It's like of all the kind of the things to to kind of throw into the mix.

37:14

You would have thought they would have come up with a better story.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I mean one of the things as well that fascinates me, which I can't find any evidence of it being looked into, is the Marquis family.

For them to go insane like that I wonder.

37:35

And it's strange because it does draw a resemble A resemblance to the Salem Witch Trials, where one of the theories there is that the bad grain.

Yeah, I got poisoning.

That's it, yes.

I couldn't remember the name of it.

If if something similar had happened to the Marquee family, I mean.

37:53

It's quite possible.

Some kind of food poisoning, because they all seem to.

They didn't go mad altogether, but it was extremely swift and very, very violent and very unique.

38:10

I mean, the only other when I was thinking about it, I thought the same thing.

Was it something that they've ingested?

You know, when you think about something that they foraged, maybe something that they've all consumed over the period of time, it?

Does it does lead me to think of hallucinations, hallucinogenic, maybe fungi of some description because you have to be on something, Excuse the phrase, to basically poke your own eye out with a stick.

38:44

Yes, I mean it is quite extreme and and like and like I said, I thought the same thing, something hallucinogenic that they've consumed.

I mean the only other thing that I thought maybe had a little bit of of kind of legitimacy as to possibly what was happening was this, This is just an extreme case of suggestive behaviour.

39:05

Yeah, But again, it's very extreme to then 'cause that level of self harm.

But I I you don't know what kind of mindset do you.

I suppose they were in, what state they were in and how suggestible they were.

It's it's hard to know because there's I imagine the reporting of their behavior especially with the time period probably didn't have the kind of detail or maybe the some of the reporting that you would see now.

39:36

So it's hard to know, isn't it Because well, I think so because mental health and treatment of people who were having breakdowns or suffering some kind of mental breakdown and exhibiting these types of behaviours were still so unknown that I think yeah, it's it's hard to know exactly what happened because I I think a lot of it was misrepresented.

40:00

You see that time and time again, don't you, in terms of accounts?

In historical records and so on.

So it's it is hard to know, but it is such a it is an intriguing part of the case because it is curious as to how this suddenly came about and the circumstances.

40:20

Yes.

There's no mention this is it.

There's no more mention of the money that he says was missing.

It seems to go, you know, from I've got, you know, my money's been stolen.

Who stole my money to her saying, look, you're poorly to the whole family, then becoming extremely mentally ill, which, yeah, it's just an intriguing train of events that lead up to it.

40:51

It's an unfortunate set of of events, I think, because again, I think it speaks to a lot of cases whereby something happens and then it becomes this domino effect, doesn't it, of how easily someone else becomes the scapegoat for something else because they're simply not necessarily understanding what's happening and motivations or the complexities of of a situation.

41:19

And in this case, there clearly was something going on within this family for them to to have this experience.

But that's not understood.

But we can easily understand that maybe this person is a witch, and given her lifestyle and the fact that she's a single woman as well, making do, I think makes her also an easy target.

41:40

So let's go that route.

That's easy to.

That's an easy.

Line to follow.

Easy route, Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

It's.

It's but again we see that type that play out time and time again don't we?

The the perceptions of particularly women in society and how they can they can have these.

42:02

Sadly, they can get kind of brought into these sad stories for whatever reason and used politically used, you know, to persecute people so many, so many different ways that they just get embroiled in in this.

42:19

And in some ways, it's almost like you get.

Out of jail free card, isn't it?

If you, if you if you pick on the witch your your misdemeanours suddenly don't seem as bad.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely, Which is which is why.

What was going to be just a one off article I do have a feeling is going to grow well, I think it.

42:40

I think it's interesting because you've got very much local history that you can follow these threads and these trains, trains of thought in terms of going in and seeing the areas of which like the burial plots, you can kind of see these key features and really kind of understand the impact that it would have had.

43:00

And I think that's something that often gets lost when people start thinking about these types of cases that they do happen.

They did happen all over and in small communities it would have been really quite significant.

It would have been I mean I'm trying to think of something that would be the equivalent in kind of modern day society and I can't come up with anything that would have been so scandalous so kind of like noteworthy because this was such big news.

43:31

It was.

It would have been really quite all consuming and I.

Think that local.

Element of history is really interesting to then explore how it how the tendrils of that then filters out into the community like you mentioned with you know people making their charms to protect themselves from witches.

43:53

You know, I mean, there's so many interesting aspects that I think you then get to follow through.

And I do think it then allows you to stumble across other cases that are a footnote compared to other very well documented cases, but equally as fascinating.

44:09

I mean, just think about the discussion we've had about Ellen Haywood and her story.

It's so unique, it's so interesting.

She's such an interesting character.

Her story really is one that should be known and should be talked about, not just within the community itself, but yes.

44:30

Yeah, this, this is something that I'd say outside of the forest of Dane.

I would expect very, very few people will have heard of her.

And most people that if they've studied witchcraft and the witch trials, they all happened in the 16 and 17.

44:49

Well, the 15 to 1700s.

This was early 19, this was what, 19/06/1907?

So she would have more than likely been overlooked even by the academics.

I think this is really important.

To note, because I think again so much focus is put on those trials right in the middle of it.

45:09

But I think you do really have to have an A broader understanding of how it plays out and how you then see the full picture in terms of what they look like towards the the latter stages where community, you know areas and communities still had these superstitions, still had these fears.

45:27

But then when you had a case go up and against go into the legal system, how it then played out to see those differences?

Because I think this story reveals so much about that intersection of folklore, superstition and the legal system.

45:44

And that's a fascinating part of this.

I think to then be able to compare that with other cases from 30 years before, then 50 years before that, 100 years before that, 200 years to really see how this, how this type of persecution played out in the courts.

46:03

What changed, what was happening and really look at the the kind of subtle changes as well as the bigger changes it.

I think it's so important to really get a much deeper dive and a much clearer picture.

And it's only through looking at cases like this that are so unheard of in comparison that I think you really do start to bring all those threads together and understand it in a broader way.

46:27

Yeah.

And.

I think as well the forest has, it's got some very unique geographical attributes to it as well.

I mean there's basically only if you if you look at the Forest as a whole, you have one Rd. which really runs through through Newnham and goes from Chepstow.

46:50

Well goes from Wales through Chepstow, then through the Forest through Lydney, Newnham and out to Gloucester.

And then on the other side you've got the A 40 which would have run through Cinderford and that is it.

It's you're not in the middle of somewhere with multiple exits and entrances into.

47:13

And so the Foresters were very, very much their own community.

They had their own language and it's all but died out.

Now there, there are probably a few people that speak it.

I know of a couple of people, but that's only because it's been passed down from their grandparents.

47:32

You know, it wasn't really to say it until the the old Severn Bridge was built.

People didn't leave the area so they were very, very isolated and would have then become very, very resilient and, you know, very much looking after themselves.

47:54

I mean, I've lived here 30 years and they are a very unique and very fantastic group of people.

But you go back 100 years, they, you know, if they'd have gone to Gloucester, I expect the majority of people wouldn't have gone to Gloucester in their lifetime and it would have only been 20 miles away, very isolated.

48:14

Very insular, very insular, but very very.

Dependent on each other, Yes again.

I think that speaks to a lot of what you then see in terms of that community support exactly.

And.

She was.

48:29

There midwife, in some cases a veterinary midwife.

She was the doctor.

She helped with dentistry.

She was probably far better thought of than I expect.

48:45

A lot of the GPS well, I think.

I also think there probably would have been something to the fact that that that role of herbalist would have been something that they recognise because it was something of the land it spoke to.

Traditions and healing methods probably far more acceptable than GPS from outside outsiders with this knowledge of and training from these institutions that they don't know about, that they've never been into exactly and.

49:16

Likewise then.

When you have the, the kind of the outside influence of government and these legal proceedings, again it's all outsiders coming and interfering with their community and they know better, You know, it's their community.

So it's almost again something very unique in terms of the geography in the sense that you do almost have this little bit of a us and them and protecting what they have, that communal, that community, communal feel, but also older ways, traditions that maybe are a little bit different.

49:54

You know, it's again, it's it's just very interesting when you do really think about it on that level to really be able to pick up and tease apart what makes it so, so fascinating because it does.

It speaks so much about the social history, the community history and this wonderful woman, you know, with this starring role.

50:16

In this particular case, yes.

Who didn't?

Do it for money?

No.

She accepted money.

If it was offered, but most of the time she never requested money and she would take payment in other forms as well as in food.

50:33

As in she had her own chickens, I understand, but you know, people would pay her in food or do jobs for her and she was quite happy to accept that.

Which again.

Speaks to her character, doesn't it?

Or doesn't it just, yes, she she wasn't.

50:50

She wasn't doing it to kind of elevate herself in the sense of making a profit off of of other people's circumstances.

It's just a means of her getting by and but also giving back to the community.

Yeah, food on the table for her and her.

Children, Yeah.

51:06

And that's pretty much all.

She was looking for really.

I think, yeah.

Just to to get by and to exist and to and to not end up back in the circumstances that she'd seen herself in previously.

Exactly, yes.

It's fascinating. 3 incredibly difficult years for herself and her family.

51:27

I don't think it's something.

That we can really, really grapple with.

I mean, I we've all read about life in work houses and poor houses and and so on during that period of time.

But my goodness, I don't think we can really truly understand what it would have been like but then also that period beforehand to to be in such a position whereby those kinds of living conditions and you are bringing your children up in that.

51:55

And what are your options?

How do you put food on the table?

You know, gosh, there's the the anguish that would have caused.

Yeah.

And the one thing.

That I always When when you hear these or you read the articles about the poor houses, you have to remember that they were never written by the people that actually injured them.

52:17

No.

So I.

Know I always think they they probably have been dumbed down because I expect they were far worse than they were actually recorded until.

52:33

The children's.

Or the working act came in in sort of during the industrial revolution where there was a few more rights like I think you were allowed to Sunday off and things like this, but the poor houses, they must have been a bit more beyond horrendous in some places I think it speaks to.

52:54

A very large problem, which is nobody really knew what to do with certain groups in society and the what the problem of the poor and the unmarried, the unmarried woman.

And and the same is true of the community.

You know you didn't have the same kind of community support in the way that you would have had a few 100 years prior whereby you might have had some assistance from the church.

53:19

But it's it's that kind of like what do you do, let's put them somewhere and they're out of sight out of mind.

And in the same way you then see it kind of play out in her in her court case because here is this case, here is this problematic case and yet she's she's kind of still gets brought into that and it's almost the same kind of feeling.

53:42

You know it's this this is a a subject matter that we really don't want to have to deal with.

She she fits nicely.

You know, the the picture on the bill type thing and yeah, there's something very, there's something quite sad that you do see those types of figures, women like her, whereby certain people, whether it is, you know, the police force, whether it's the the legal system, whether it's parliament, you know, certain individuals, whatever it is.

54:13

I mean it's so different across different cases whereby they still look at individuals like that.

I don't know what to do with you.

You don't fit what I expect you to be.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

And that's her.

I think She didn't.

54:29

Fit what they expected of a respectable woman.

More than likely, no.

This is it but she.

She was considered perfectly respectable by those that knew her every day and and that's all that mattered.

54:46

Because her off help get her off, yeah.

No, it's it is a fascinating story and say there is plenty on the Internet about her and the her main the main literature on her is at little Dean jail which in itself is a fascinating place to visit.

55:07

Yeah, it's definitely a cabinet.

Of curiosities, isn't it?

It's, it's got a bit of something.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

It is a.

Bizarre place?

Yeah.

You.

You kind of.

You don't know where to look.

You don't I.

Mean.

I've been two or three Times Now, and every time I go there you find something new to read that you you're sure you must have seen before.

55:27

But no, it's Yep, there it is.

So no, it is.

It's a fascinating place, well worth a visit on a cold winter's day.

It's a, It's a.

Really unique place.

It's unlike anywhere else you'll go.

It's it.

It is.

It is like stepping into a world that you just can't quite picture.

55:44

Because everything is something to examine and to explore.

And like you said, you go again and you're like, huh, I missed that.

How did I miss that?

So yeah, it's very much worth a visit.

And I mean, I don't work for them.

Don't.

Get me wrong.

55:59

But it is.

It is an amazing place to visit.

It's so eclectic and I don't think there's anywhere probably in the world where you can stand next to a two or three headed stuffed animal looking at somebody from the Ku Klux Klan with Darth Vader behind you.

56:17

People are going to listen.

To that and go what?

What exactly?

Yeah, it's yeah, you you have to see it to believe it, but it's.

It's not the National Trust.

Let's No, it's not.

No, but it is.

56:32

They they have got a new, funnily enough they I say new it's probably from COVID but it was close the last time I went there.

They've got a bit of actually got a a room which is near the portcullis.

Would you call it a portcullis or near the entrance Anyway, before you know the actual first entrance before you get to the door, which has actually been set aside for witchcraft.

56:56

So it's sort of witchcraft through the ages, but it hadn't.

It wasn't open when I was there last, so I would like to go back and see that in more detail.

Oh, I hope you carry on.

Exploring this kind of journey of of looking into these types of cases though, because I think it's so interesting and I think it's brilliant that you're turning over these stones and uncovering these, these accounts and these stories.

57:21

And yeah, I think, gosh, it's an exciting thing to keep looking into to see what else it's.

It's an easy thing to do.

As well, in some respects, because everybody's story is individual, it means that I can write instead of writing a story from A to ZI can write shorter pieces, which means I can actually devote far more attention to each piece.

57:47

And then I am seriously going to start looking at the bits I've bookmarked and thankfully to some wonderful finds in Oxfam and my last name and other charities exist, obviously, I think you'll find.

58:03

Yes, and a couple of.

Auctions.

I've picked up some fantastic books on very rare editions on witchcraft through Britain and Europe, and one of my favourite books which has very little to do with this but is on Witchcraft.

58:21

It's the 1st edition written in the 17th century and it's a complete transcript of the Pendle Witches trial.

Oh.

Fascinating it is, that is a find.

It is.

A Find, Yes.

I covered this book.

58:36

I have to be honest.

So it would be very interesting if I can find other transcripts of trials to compare them.

That's something that I I'm looking to do, which could prove quite interesting, yeah?

As I.

58:52

Say I think there there isn't a lot of, there's an awful lot of literature and research and material out there about witchcraft, trials and persecution.

But I still think there is so much more that can be done and so much more to uncover and aspects to explore by comparing and contrasting and so many other things.

59:15

And I do think that I think it's so important to not forget that part of history.

I I quite agree, I.

Quite agree.

I mean it's it really just showed the persecution of women at its worst by civilised societies and I think if you then can.

59:36

Civilized.

Societies.

But if you then consider.

All of that, to be able to understand some of the psychology and all the other aspects of play, I think it's very, very important because they are important messages to teach and to learn from.

59:55

You know, you'd like to think that it brings about change.

You hope it does.

But I think you can only ever bring about change by conversation.

And if we don't ever examine them, there is no conversation to ever have.

And I think that's, that's the main reason to continue to look at how this type of history played out and the impact that it had on society and people And to really understand the intricacies of it is just it's paramount.

1:00:24

And you know, there are very important bigger parts of history, absolutely, that deserve attention.

But social history I think is one of the parts that I think often gets overlooked.

You know the ground level history, It's the foundations.

1:00:42

Are so important, and the history of the lecturer, the history of that is so well known, it actually stands on these foundations and without these foundations the history falls absolutely.

1:00:59

And I I'm.

There's I'm looking at many different ways of actually writing this book to to whether I'm going to show it as a timeline to show how the trials changed through the years or how if I'm going to show how witches have become more acceptable through the years, I don't know yet.

1:01:16

But I do know that there are a lot of ladies out there who gave their life to their belief, who have a story to tell.

Yeah, absolutely.

And.

I.

Would like to tell it it's it it will be fascinating and as I say the fact that it it happens on on my doorstep So these are people that it's as you say you know we we can look at the Pendle Hill we can look look at Salem and we know all about those thanks to one the what the wonders of television but those that are on our doorstep do we really know about them unless it is the Pendle wikis on your doorstep.

1:01:59

You know Scotland had massive witch files, but very.

Little is.

Spoken about them outside of Scotland.

Yeah, I know.

And.

I find that a.

Real tragedy because these women were amazing women and yeah, just treated hellishly and I think you know.

1:02:21

Something that I kind of touched upon earlier when I was saying how they speak so much about superstition and folklore.

The fact is we still see echoes of these stories in our communities and we still listen and we take them in and we absorb them, but we don't necessarily make the connections.

1:02:39

And and I think that speaks volumes about the impact that their their story had, what happened to them had.

And again it's almost like history's crying out of don't let us be forgotten and they're continued.

1:02:55

And so the fact that they have, they've had that impact to the point where they've become so embedded and ingrained in and stories passed down.

I think that alone speaks to the fact that more has to be done in connecting us to those to those individuals from the past to to make that bridge between what's known now.

1:03:19

But really with what happened, I think that's so important.

So I I really can't wait to see where you go with this project and thank you so much for coming in and telling her story.

You're very welcome.

I'm.

I'm.

I'm actually very pleased to have told her story.

It's it's so nice to be able to tell a story with a happy ending.

1:03:39

Absolutely in this.

Area it really is.

And like we said, she was.

So fascinated.

Yes, yes, and I.

Seriously believe that her and the community had the had the last laugh.

I just think you're right to the.

Actually get to the.

Church now to photograph the the graves.

1:03:57

Oh, I can't pay my.

Respects.

I can't wait to see where you go.

With this, Rachel, it's going to be, I think it's going to be really interesting to see how you piece it all together and where you go next and what you do with it.

So good luck with all the spaces, I say.

Yes, and I will say goodbye to.

1:04:15

Everybody listening.

Bye everyone.

Goodbye everybody.