Investigating the Unknown: John Fraser’s Research into a Single Paranormal Source

Transcript

0:20

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:36

Picture this, a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

1:06

We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

1:30

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

1:50

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge.

Because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:11

Today I'm thrilled to be joined by a guest who has dedicated his life to investigating the mysteries that have perplexed us for centuries.

John Fraser As a prominent member of the Society for Psychical Research and part of the Spontaneous Cases Committee, John Fraser has spent years studying some of the most puzzling paranormal cases, exploring locations like The Cage, a place many claim is one of England's most haunted.

2:40

But it's not just haunted houses and ghost sightings that capture John's interests.

His books, research and investigations ask bigger questions about the very nature of the paranormal.

What if all of these phenomena, poltergeists, hauntings, apparitions are connected?

3:02

What if, rather than separate random events, they all stem from 1 underlying force?

John's fascinating research poses interesting questions that may cause us to rethink how we perceive the paranormal.

His work spans decades, taking us from the most infamous haunted sites to groundbreaking theories about A1 paranormal power that might connect it all.

3:29

So stay with us as we venture into this intriguing world of investigation, reflection, and perhaps revelation.

Could there really be one force behind all these strange encounters?

This is the journey of exploration that John Fraser invites us on today.

3:48

You won't want to miss this dive into the unknown.

And now let's welcome John Fraser to the show.

Hi, John.

Welcome to the podcast.

4:04

It's a pleasure to be with you tonight, Michelle.

Do you want to start by just showing a little bit about yourself, John, and, and your background?

You know in particular how you became involved in psychical research.

That's going back a few years, actually, probably all the way back to when I was a teenager, which is a few years ago.

4:27

I mean, my, my initial interest came simply from the fact that I used to be a horror film buff when I was a teenager and then I started seeing one or two documentaries on TV, which astounded me that people actually took it seriously.

4:48

I mean, that was long before the days of Most Haunted, so documentaries were quite rare.

I think there was one about Peter Underwood and I was just absolutely astounded that people took it seriously.

In fact, I was quite sceptical.

But after reading entire shelves of the library, I started to take it more seriously and as soon as I was legally able, joined the Associated Association for the Scientific Study of an Ominous Phenomena, and shortly after that the Ghost Club and then the SPR, which is a very abridged way of saying how I got into it.

5:31

It wasn't that I had any experiences or anything, it's just that I was fascinated by one of life's great, great unsolved mysteries.

And you know, just to follow up from that, obviously you've written a few books.

5:48

Do you want to just give an overview of the books that you've you've written about and what inspired you to to write them?

Right.

Well, going going back again a few years, I've written three books.

First one was called Ghost Hunting.

6:05

A survivor's guide must have something because I'm still around.

But reason I wrote it was because there was lots of guides to haunted places.

But at least at the time 2010, it struck me, at least this side of the Atlantic, there was very few sort of books trying to give insights and how to approach investigating haunted places.

6:33

And as by then I've had quite a few years experiences, vice chair investigations of the ghost club and then on the spontaneous cases committee.

The SPRI kind of thought I'd give it a go.

It's probably for anyone that does pick it up now.

6:51

It's probably a little bit dated.

Things have moved on since then, possibly even my the the my own way I do things have moved on.

But nevertheless I think it filled it filled a gap at the time.

Then after that it was a gap for about 9 years and I started to become more involved in both reading about and investigating poltergeist type cases, and it kind of struck me that they were kind of they neglected cousin of paranormal phenomena.

7:31

You've got all kinds of television shows about famous hauntings and so on.

But it kind of struck me that we're never going to prove our subject by somebody seeing something out of the corner of the eye at 2:00 in the morning half awake after three cups of coffee.

7:54

But we may well be able to prove something by looking at the type of cases where something is thrown across the room.

It's in one place and then it's in the other.

It's what I would call the fact of fraud scenario.

8:12

You've basically either got a possibly paranormal fact or somebody's playing tricks.

There's no real in between.

There's no real psychological explanation for it.

And so that really fascinated me.

8:28

So I thought I'd write a book about it and we'll probably talk about that a little bit deeper, but that was my prompting.

My latest book, Horribly long title, Paranormal Perspectives, which is the name of the series.

One big box of paranormal tricks from goose to poltergeist to the theory of just one paranormal power.

8:49

That kind of occurred to me during lockdown because when I wrote the poltergeist book, I'd seen a an overwhelming correlation between ghosts and poltergeists, and we keep treating them as the same thing, and they're almost certainly not.

9:06

We can talk about that a bit later as well.

And it kind of occurred to me that we have so many different paranormals.

Is it not at least possible that there are just different ways of expressing the same things and we've got spiritualism, occultism, ghosts, poltergeists, white magic, black magic, shamanism and Sauron, and how is this really a different process or just a different way of saying the same thing?

9:39

So I had far too much time to think about these things.

And during lockdown and the mirror, I looked into it and the mirror, I kind of did a bit of research, especially after lockdown ease, the more I thought there might be something in it.

So I thought I'd write a book about it.

9:56

That's probably, again, in brief, the the motivations for my three books.

I mean, I think in myself as probably a paranormal researcher that writes books rather than a, rather than a paranormal author that does research.

And I only write books when I kind of wake up one morning and think I might have something to say that hasn't been said.

10:18

And you might agree with it, you might disagree with it, but that's kind of where my motivations lie.

I completely agree with what you said.

I think, I think you brought some very intriguing questions, particularly with the latest book, some very intriguing questions and thoughts that I can't say I've seen represented anywhere else.

10:40

It really gives pause for thought in terms of what's to what could be happening, what possibly may be happening and what, you know, the terminology we use and how we lump all of these things together or don't lump these things together.

It was a really, really fascinating read, a very, very detailed, thorough book that, like I said, just with each page, with each new section, just ponder, you know, gets you to ponder different questions.

11:06

Really, really fascinating.

I'll, I'll let you into a little secret, though.

This is not a new idea.

I'd love to say I woke up and suddenly had a Eureka moment.

But I mean, going back to the 1990s, it was, I'd say sort of the approach of Paul Dever who was trying to trying to look into Earth energies and how they possibly produced UFOs and other different types of phenomena.

11:38

And going back a few years before that, there's a there's a chap called Albert Budden who nobody has never ever heard of apart from one person.

Every time I mention his name, who wrote a few books, including one called Electrical UFOs, which isn't primarily about UFOs, but is about how electromagnetism can trigger off all kinds of paranormal phenomena.

12:12

And if you go all the way back, you've got the likes of William Crooks, old SPR member, died 1919, invented vacuum tubes.

12:28

So he must have been a vaguely sensible bloke and he was looking into what he called as a a universal for psychic force.

So it's kind of something that's always been around.

12:43

But now we've got all these popularisation of the subject, people seem to fall into their own little boxes as to what they explore, you know, ghosts, UFOs, demonologists and so on.

13:03

And it's all kind of got a bit too compartmentalised.

So I thought I'd try and slightly I I call it a meditation rather than a theory.

It's something that puts some ideas in front of you and you can kind of have a good think about them and see if they apply.

13:23

It's not meant to be the last word on the subject, and it's not meant to be an indoctrination.

So just kind of shifting gears ever so slightly.

I mean you mentioned, you've mentioned a few times that the Society for Psychical Research of which obviously you are involved in as a, as a council member.

13:40

Do you want to explain more about the Spontaneous Cases Committee?

What it does?

You know what its primary role is, what its function is?

You know why you think it's an important aspect of what the SPR offer?

The SPR Society for Psychical Research for any of your listeners that don't know what we are.

14:04

Old institutions founded 1882 primarily by scientists and academics that that actually wanted to explore the paranormal, which is refreshing.

14:19

We've got far too few today, although with some notable exceptions, the spontaneous case committee probably emerged after Guy Playfair and Maurice Gross investigated Enfield in the 1980s.

14:39

Now the little known fact that when Enfield came along first to the Daily Mirror and then the Daily Mirror contacted the SPR, there was nobody really wanted to take it on.

14:55

And after lots of ringing around, there was this new member of the society called Maurice Gross who seemed really keen and I wouldn't for a second recommend this technique, send out a new member and quite a heavy poltergeist thing.

15:15

But that's actually what happened.

Thankfully Morris was wasn't was a very level headed Guy investigated it thoroughly and then got the later on got the help from Guy Playfair who'd just returned from investigating poltergeists in Brazil.

15:34

So it turned out to be an internationally famous bit of research in the end, but I think probably Morris realised this is not the ideal way of doing things.

So between Morris Guy and the rest of the council at the time, the spontaneous cases committee was set up with people that had had some experience and obviously people that could be trained to have some some experience, but normally people that had already had some experience investigating things.

16:07

To actually deal with the fairly frequent emails and apply to that letters we got to the SPR about spontaneous cases.

I mean, after all, paranormal events by the nature tend to be spontaneous.

16:23

We spent probably over a century trying to replicate them in laboratories with only limited use.

So that's how it all came about.

Much of what the SCC days is probably terribly mundane.

16:45

Latest case that passed passed my entry a little bit was somebody that was hearing inexplicable rattling all over the house, which I've we've not come to a firm conclusion, but could well turn out to be the central heating pipes based on the recordings we've got so far.

17:11

It may not, it may be more interesting, but an awful lot of them are of that type.

Then of course, we get the second type, which is more interesting, where there is a greater variety of phenomena and which most people never hear about because they are entirely confidential.

17:35

And then very occasionally we get a type such as Enfield, which has already been publicly reported to the papers, or somebody who is has no reason whatsoever for whatever motivation to keep their their experiences confidential.

17:58

And they're probably the ones the public hear about by definition.

So there's a lot going on in the background, rather mundane day-to-day stuff, but nevertheless people that have inexplicable events.

It might even just be odds which we probably need to explain the mechanisms of a digital camera on.

18:22

But occasionally we do get a very interesting case and obviously the ones which don't ask for confidentiality you occasionally hear about.

Could you just walk us through maybe then what, what happens when cases are reported to the spontaneous case committee?

18:42

How do you typically engage and respond?

You know, what are the steps in the processes involved as part of that investigative journey?

80% of them are, are dealt with by well, when they come to the cases coordinator who offer them to the committee members and depending on our speciality, somebody would normally take them up if it's a serious e-mail.

19:09

Occasionally we get somebody that's saying, you know, I am, I am, I am the second coming of Jesus.

I, I can prove it.

And maybe they don't go terribly far down the investigative line, but they they'd, they'd get passed on to A, to an investigator with appropriate skills who would then either deal by e-mail or phone and only occasionally if it was ongoing a visit.

19:41

A lot of the cases we get are historic and people just want to record them or maybe get some possible explanation, which is all you can offer if something's happened several years ago.

So, but yeah, occasionally we would obviously visit normally more than one person and talk to the person and try to come to some helpful conclusions as to what they might be experiencing.

20:11

What we would not ever do is to say that we would anyway clear a phenomena.

That's not what the society is about, and it's often counterproductive in any case.

So if you pick up a case that you know, maybe involves some analysis, you know, further investigation, some longer term involvement, what happens with any material and data that's collected as part of that?

20:41

What's what's done with that afterwards, you know, as part of that investigation and that reporting?

First of all, it becomes anonymised and this is very special reasons for not doing so.

It goes into the SPR archives and believe it or not, we are currently in the process of working out who should other than the SEC and obviously key members of the society who should be able to access it in the future.

21:14

And the SEC actually probably from a quiet spell hit quieter and Asus Suns at the moment.

And we do have quite a lot of data and we're at the moment actually considering how we can safely make that available to third parties within and possibly without the society.

21:37

I mean, all the old cases you read about, a lot of them probably started off as the equivalent of SPR spontaneous cases.

I mean, I don't know if you've heard of the haunting of Balafin House in Scotland.

21:55

It started off as a haunting of B house for about 50 years and then people realized everyone had passed on anyway and everybody knew that B stood for Balafin and that was a SPR case going back to Victorian times.

But at the moment we're very much in the debate as to as to how we present our findings.

22:17

So to a certain extent, it's a question of watching this space.

And obviously, you know, Speaking of spontaneous cases, you've, you know, you've recently worked on a case involving poltergeist phenomena, which has been shared previously on a podcast by the the female homeowner involved.

22:36

Do you want to just tell us a little bit more about your role in that case?

You know, what's have been some of the interesting insights or takeaways that you've taken from that case with regards to the activity and the impact on the family itself?

I've I've got a, what I'd call a very indirect role role in the case.

22:54

What actually happened is the lady in question approached the SPR in 2000 and 2020.

We were actually planning a visit and then suddenly the whole world locked down and I must admit for my sins of case was very much pushed to one side.

23:21

I couldn't think how we could possibly progress it because obviously there was an entire UK locked.

So we unfortunately lost touch with the lady and then about two years later Tony Hayes contacted at the spontaneous cases committee asking for advice on a case he was carrying through and I immediately thought that sounds familiar.

23:52

Apparently the phenomena had died down a good deal, perhaps surprisingly.

But during lockdown and then had started up again and after talking to various organisations, some very belief LED she had run into Tony Hayes organization and the arrangement we actually made because, I mean, to be honest, we'd kind of had one bite of the cherry.

24:18

And you know, through understandable reasons we hadn't been able to follow up was the SCC at the time took on what I would call an advisory rule where Tony could get second opinions and things and basically ask, ask for advice whenever he wanted.

24:40

I know I've I'd I'd initially spoken to the lady at good in at great length in 2019.

She comes across as a very credible person.

I know in the this particular instance they have totally balked at the idea of being on TV or being celebrities.

25:06

So there's no motivation for anything other than trying to make sense of the extremely ongoing going experiences, which basically consists of object movements and throwing.

Going back nearly six years now, since then I've I've visited the premises when the when the family were away.

25:32

I was intrigued by the amount of electrical equipment that was in the house, but could find nothing untoward with regards to electromagnetism, at least at least at that time.

But this is a household that has a television in every room, computers, fish tank and so on, which always interests me because there is sometimes a connection between electromagnetism and poltergeist activity.

26:05

We've done some analysis on some of the coins that have been thrown.

And again, from the videos, coins were thrown.

I mean, if we're talking hypothetically, they were either thrown by somebody or they were thrown by something.

26:23

There's absolutely no evidence it was by somebody.

It's not.

It's not absolutely out of the question, but we can.

We've got a case that's been going on going on for about 6 years and there is no reason or motivation why anyone would create that case.

26:48

And if anyone member of the household was pranking, I can't believe that the other House members of the household wouldn't have crossed and done by now and be rather annoyed.

Just for the record, whilst I nothing nothing unusual happened while I was there, while the team was there a period of few days, they did have some very inexplicable object movement while the family was not present.

27:22

Which again widen, widens witness pool, which I tend to think is very important because if you've got a wide witness pool, it stops other people thinking it is just simply a case of mass collusion or anything like that.

27:40

Yeah, it certainly makes it more compelling.

I think you're absolutely right.

It it gives more credence to that type of of reported experience when you've got people outside of the home having similar things happen to them without without the family members being present, it, it makes it so compelling.

27:59

Absolutely.

I mean, you, you've, you've spoken to the leading question yourself.

And I mean, I don't know what your thoughts are, but I can see no reason why no one would possibly want to go through this for six years without there being something genuine to go through.

28:20

And actually, my take is very much the the fact that the family's motivation is really trying to safeguard the younger children.

This is a case that they don't want public in any way in case it has a negative impact for the younger, the younger members of the family.

28:37

And so here you've got basically just a family trying to make sense of what's happening to them, trying to gain some control if they can for what's happening, but also having support from people for whom they can speak to and and talk through experiences sometimes to have things just simply, you know, documented.

28:57

But in no way have I ever picked up.

And I've spoken to the to the female homeowner a few times.

At no point have I ever picked up any motivation other than trying to protect the family and to shelter them from, you know, shelter this story from the public.

29:14

But at the same time, just getting some support for what they are experiencing, which at times for them has been very terrifying.

Absolutely.

That's the only take I can taking it.

The one slightly interesting slant is it's just been a lot of activity batteries quite I think they've as as I think they've got a whole a massive jar full of coins that have been thrown or appeared or what have you.

29:46

But there has been no commutative entity or apparent commutative entity at all.

It has just been one long journey of spontaneous PK, which is actually in in some ways quite unusual, but it does seem to be indicative that there might be a lot of pent up energy coming from somewhere.

30:14

The following clip that you're about to hear is taken from the interview with the female home owner that we have been discussing.

I'll make sure to leave a link to the full episode in the description notes for this podcast.

We was getting random noises, things disappearing like well obviously one time my partner was fixing something in the kitchen, he'd put his drill on the side, he'd gone to get something, gone back to the kitchen and the drill wasn't there.

30:39

So me and him, we both searched the house top to bottom.

After searching the house, going back down in the kitchen and it's on the side again, things were just disappearing and then appearing days later in random places.

We started getting a lot of scratching on the walls and a lot of knocking.

30:59

And the thing with the knocking is we'd always get the knocks in threes, which obviously I found quite strange at the time, but obviously not being able to pinpoint where they are and at that time because we'd never put two and two together.

Obviously, although there's no rational explanation for things disappearing, you're, you're left standing there scratching your head thinking, well, has that really happened and you kind of question yourself?

31:24

What follows is another short clip from that same interview to give you a flavour of the type of paranormal experiences encountered by the family, as well as the fear that it clearly evoked for the family, so that you could begin to picture and imagine what this might be like for you if you and your family were going through something similar.

31:43

I'd be washing up, I'd have coins thrown at me.

You'd be walking in the hallway, you'd have a queen thrown at you.

I even at one point I literally went through the whole house, took all the change at the house, the kiddies, kids, piddy banks.

And yet these coins were still coming.

31:59

And obviously that that is like what, what is going on that obviously we couldn't work out what that was because it doesn't make no sense.

There was also a night where me and my twins were in bed in my bedroom and we was having Queens thrown in the corner of the room for four hours.

32:17

We was just sitting there scratching our head, not working out what's going on.

Because at the time you see it, but I wasn't processing it.

It's, it's it, it was very strange.

I think one of the worst things that I've I've experienced in this house is I was in bed with my two twins and my daughter was in her bedroom with her partner.

32:40

And at the time we had them really heavy duty, thick crushed velvet beds with the big head boards and the Bigfoot bases.

All of a sudden we've heard Bang Bang, bang on what sounded like a wall in the hallway.

My bed literally started shaking.

32:58

Next thing I know my daughter's running with her boyfriend.

Her bed had been shaking and obviously that was it.

We was at them beds and downstairs quicker than anything.

It's a, it's a fascinating case and you know, Tony Hayes as well as the SPR have I think done such an incredible job of supporting this family.

33:17

And again, having spoken to the female homeowner, her response really has only been overwhelmingly positive about the support she's had from every single person who's been involved.

And she spoke about every single member who has been involved and the impact that you've all had upon her.

33:37

And just feeling like they have people who are listening, who are taking it seriously and just there at the end of a phone call or the end of a text when something happens has been incredibly reassuring for her and the family.

That's, that's probably the best any what paranormal investigator can hope to achieve.

33:59

There's no, there's there's no magic wand to wave it away.

With one exception.

I'll, I'll give you in a second and on, on the whole, all we can do is to get people to understand what might be happening.

Also get them to understand that it's apart from the shock factor that happening.

34:19

It's rarely or ever in any way dangerous and to possibly keep people away that would come in with belief LED ideas such as demonologists and possibly stir up a whole hornet's nest.

34:40

I mean for example, if you are having strange experiences and a demonologist knocks at your door, you're immediately just by even if they're well-intentioned.

That title is imposing a belief and what it might be.

34:59

And that belief obviously is not something that's terribly liked.

You know, nobody wants it even in the house.

And I would ask people if they are investigating these things, whatever their personal belief system is, please don't put it on your calling card.

35:23

The the one quick exception, I was going to say it's a wonderful little exception by I think it was Tony Cornell, a, a who did a lot of casework for the SPR and the mainly in the last century, he actually went into a house that had been having some poltergeist phenomena from memory.

35:48

Now remember the SPR do not do clearances or anything, but he said, I'm just going to go into the room and I will see what I can do.

So he went into the room, if I've recollecting this correctly, shut the door, smoked a cigarette.

36:06

We can tell this is very 20th century.

Banged his briefcase or whatever around a little bit, made a few noises, came out and said hopefully things will be better now.

And funnily enough, it worked.

36:25

So it shows.

It shows the psychological aspect of even of how possibly real paranormal stuff can be triggered off.

Which kind of reemphasises my point.

If you go in calling unusual phenomena this, that, or the other, you're liable to have the opposite effect.

36:48

And I also think if you are so sensitive, if you've been traumatized by whatever you've been experiencing it, it can then become a self fulfilling prophecy, can't it?

Almost in the sense that any small bit of activity, something rattling, you mentioned earlier about the rattling in the in the house, that may very well just turn out to be the pipe system.

37:14

You know, it can become something where every single thing is then part of this phenomena.

And of course, if you have someone reinforcing that, again, it just only heightens that sense of fear that everything around you happening is because of this is whatever they've labeled labeled it as, which again, if you have family, if you've got children, can be really distressing.

37:37

And again, I think it's something everybody has to be mindful of that this is often times people, a family that deal with this day in and day out and the impression that you give them lasts longer than when you then leave them to it.

And your role is, is really crucial, I think, in supporting the family or not supporting the family through what can be very difficult, difficult times of of their their their family life it.

38:05

Can potentially, this depends on the theory, but potentially be even worse than that, But because a lot of what my poltergeist book did discover is there is always a stress factor, almost always a stress factor prior to any poltergeist phenomena occurring.

38:29

I mean, that can be adolescence, which is for some people three or four years of stress that can be obviously moving into a new house.

Now, did you move into a haunted house or is it the fact that it's stressed you out actually causing the haunting?

38:51

Amityville would be an interesting example of that if we assume it's not a fake for they didn't renew overextend the mortgage, but they went into a house where 5 or 6 people had been killed in a not too dim and distant past.

39:07

So if one accepts that poltergeists and stress are in some way related, a investigator that increases the stress factor could well actually be causing or causing a catalyst, at the very least for real phenomena occurring.

39:28

Which is great from the testing point of view, but would break every ethical rule rule in the book.

So just kind of following on from, you know, this particular case, this active case at the moment.

Obviously earlier you spoke about the books that you've written and your book Poltergeist, a new investigation into destructive hauntings delves into other fascinating cases, including The Cage, which started off as a case that again came through the Spontaneous Cases committee.

40:03

Do you want to initially just talk about how?

How that came about, How this particular case came through to the SBR?

Yes, we got a, we, we got an e-mail communication by a lady called Vanessa who has obviously been in TTV numerous times, a current owner of the premises saying that she had spent several years living there, couldn't live there anymore and was wondering what to do next.

40:34

Basically, I do, I do kind of read the emails carefully that come in and there was enough nuance to but well, for me at least to take it pretty seriously.

And so initially we went down to visit her with my colleague Rosemarie or Carol, and we went through the whole scenarios and before we had in any way followed it up, she had taken the decision.

41:10

Some call controversial, but I'll actually try and justify it in her behalf in a second to actually let her house out for haunted events.

Now some people think, Oh well, she's letting our house out for haunted events.

41:27

There must be some underhand motivation for this Timeline was she'd lived there three years, she tried letting it out twice and other people hadn't stayed long.

She had then ended up, I believe at one point living in a caravan.

41:48

So as far as I am concerned, if you've got a house that you nearly got to the stage where she felt she couldn't morally rent it to somebody and she couldn't live there herself, there's a certain logic and saying, well, if I believe my house is haunted or has Baltic ghost activity, why not have various groups staying to see if they can replicate?

42:17

I mean, for some reason potential victims of paranormal phenomena seem to get a certain amount of Flack if they seek publicity.

Without them seeking publicity, we wouldn't have any on the record at all.

42:39

I mean, I seek publicity by speaking to you.

I'd rather hope a few people may buy my book.

I do not think Vanessa Mitchell's publicity seeking it's in any way different to that.

42:56

I mean, you probably hope a few people listen to this podcast.

So for that reason, I think the Cage got a lot of controversy around it.

So a couple of years later, I actually managed to get a small grant to basically rent A caravan closer to the premises and basically in a interview, all the key witnesses that lived in the area.

43:27

And then I followed it up with interviewing as many of the key witnesses who had visited the premises from outside the area.

And I wrote a full report on that which appears in the book.

43:44

But to briefly state, we did find quite a good correlation of experiences, particular types of phenomena, particular do a slamming for no particular reason, particular places where the phenomena was most prevalent from people that had no contact with other people.

44:09

And we also got the narrative down to AT because we spoke to Vanessa's and one of Vanessa's previous lodgers and the friend who had lived in the house with her initially.

And basically the story is dead consistent.

44:27

But where it gets interesting is let's assume you've got a Haunting's book poltergeist case.

You've also got a premises called the Cage and the haunting Poltergeist has become associated with Ursula Kemp, who was indeed held at Saint Joseph's prior to be taken to Chelmsford where she was hung as a witch along with one of her comrades.

44:59

I think the rest got a lesser sentence.

No, everybody thinks that this ex lock up, no cruisy little house is the place where Ursula Kemp was kept.

45:18

It wasn't.

No lock up in this country dates back past the 1780s Ursula Kemp is very much 16th century.

The lock up in Saint Joseph's is probably early Victorian, but what it does have is in the 1970s it was converted into a house connected to a very small house and the lockout was incorporated into the house and then somebody put a history plaque on it.

45:57

Nobody knows who that says the cage and then mentions Ursula Kemp and then suddenly you have an identity to the ghost.

Nobody's fault at all.

You've got paranormal phenomena happening in your house.

46:14

You've got a plaque, plaque outside saying Ursula Kemp was imprisoned here prior to her execution.

I mean, there's not a normal person in the world wouldn't think, Oh my God, it's Ursula Kemp.

But the actual cage is just a was just a a run-of-the-mill early victory in lock up that was incorporated into a house and building box in the 1970s.

46:42

Doesn't make it any more interesting as a haunting, but does give an interesting twist because it means there's a lot of noise behind the potentially real phenomena.

And I hope I managed to do my small bit to separate the noise from the phenomena.

47:00

But I think it raises a really interesting question that I think you also raise in in your latest book, which is this the weight of expectation that we can have, especially when we go into historical properties where there is some sense of history, right or wrong, that we bring to that, bring to that location.

47:21

And with that then comes this weight of expectation of what it is and an explanation of what it is that sometimes, like you said, in this case, can very much then muddy the water of truth from fiction and blur the lines somewhat.

And it's, it's an interesting point that you raise that I think this case does a really good job of, of helping to kind of show the impact that that can sometimes then have in terms of what people experience or report to experience.

47:50

Oh, absolutely.

I mean very briefly.

Another one that's brilliant is a black monk of Pontefract who a black monk suddenly turns up in a in a 1950s council house on a site that used to be covered with licorice fields.

48:08

Maybe the black mount cut a sweet tooth.

Maybe the shadowy figure was misidentified as a black monk.

And then there was a bit of history chucked in.

Because Pontefract does have some monasteries, but nowhere, nowhere near this 1950s council house and East Drive.

48:31

We love giving ghosts identities and as I think we love giving the paranormal identities or boxes, as I kind of try to explain in my One Big Box of Paranormal Tricks book.

And if we take it a stage further, let's go to Transylvania.

48:54

It's a lovely place.

I've been there about 5 or 6 times.

But a lot of paranormal cases, possibly poltergeist cases, are explained in terms of vampires.

And of course, when it's reported as such, Western researchers do not take them seriously.

49:14

And yet we are talking about black monks, wicked witches, grey ladies, headless horsemen.

I mean, who's the most who's, who's the most bonkers?

People that identify paranormal events as all those things or people that identify them as as vampires.

49:36

And now we're not just expressing the same box of paranormal in a way that our culture kind of allows us to do.

So vampires aren't the most common in Romania.

49:54

They're actually of vampires and vampire stories.

They're actually even more common in Greece.

What does Romania and Greece have in common?

They are both Christian Orthodox, largely Christian orthodox countries.

Christian Orthodoxy equates when the main difference between Anton Catholic Catholics and Protestants.

50:18

They equate vampires are incorruptibles as being demonic.

Catholic Church has far too many incorruptibles as Saints.

In fact, that's one of the main criteria.

50:35

So we cannot express.

We could not have invented the vampire to express the paranormal because incorruptibles are good.

So we all, we all have our own belief system in expressing what might be the same type of paranormal event.

50:58

I've said exactly the same thing I don't know how many times, and I've certainly had that conversation with Doctor Richard Sugg when it comes to his research around vampire folklore and historic cases and examples of what would have been reported as as vampire activity.

51:15

When you start to unpick it.

I mean, they just have so many parallels with what we see in in poltergeist phenomena.

And so there is this kind of crossover, like you said, where we've somehow pigeonholed them into these boxes with with these turns and these reference points because of cultural references or, you know, religious reference or something.

51:37

It's become known as this.

But when you actually start to analyse and look at what's involved, you start to see the overlap is much more significant and interesting and again I think sometimes under explored.

It's not just the person centred phenomena that kind of falls into this though.

51:57

There's also places that seem to attract numerous types of phenomena.

For example, when lockdown ended and I had got the word of reading about things, I took a trip to Rendlesham Forest and did a good bit of research about that.

52:17

I only went into the actual UFO events that have been obviously went into in such depths to some extent.

But as well as being a centre for UX for activity, at least for a period, Rendlesham is also supposed to be the the haunt of the legendary Sugar Monkey, which apparently when it was last seen in 2010, is 8 foot tall with the shape with a vase.

52:51

A bit like a baboon.

Let's call it the closest thing we'll ever get to an English Bigfoot.

It's also been where a lot of poltergeist cases events have been reported.

53:07

It's also, and this is speculative, it's also right next to the Sutton Hoo burial mound.

So 1 can speculate and one can only speculate to be honest that our ancient ancestors might have kind of thought that to be a rather interesting place as well.

53:31

And if you go back to Paul Devereux and all the research you've done in 1990s on Earth lights and places where a phenomena, late phenomena possibly misidentified as UFO phenomena were more likely to happen.

53:50

I mean, there's an awful lot of geological work needs to be done in these trigger areas for want of a better expression and possibly measuring of, you know, electromagnetic versus, are there any electromagnetic versus that might have been around in the 1980s due to the fact there was goodness knows how many air bases in and around Rendlesham have probably gone.

54:16

But there's also seem to be places where multi types of phenomena seem to exist, which again makes the overlap of phenomena even bigger.

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58:23

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58:40

Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

Again, one of the very interesting things that you raise as part of your research, you know, is this exploration of of poltergeist phenomena and how it differs from apparitional sightings.

59:06

Do you want to just kind of explore that a little bit further in terms of what what you think that has to show in terms of your research?

Well, let's, let's call the paranormal a syndrome in the same way as there's various, there's various medical diagnosis where we don't quite know the cause, but there's there's a lot of interconnected phenomena.

59:30

I I'd personally say apparitions and poltergeist activities are part of one in the same syndrome.

Why, you may ask?

I don't really know of any well recorded ghost story, IE just apparitions that actually exists.

59:55

Now your listeners might be going but what about Hampton Court?

What about all kinds of legendary hauntings?

When you actually look into them, they turn to dust and not the way you really want them to.

1:00:14

A quick example, you have quite a famous ghost story that the drones very much up until the late 1990s place called Eggtham Moot in Kent, which is supposed to be haunted by Dame Dorothy Selby who was bricked up there.

1:00:40

It seems to be a national pastime in the past bricking people up.

In this case, she was bricked up for between the Gunpowder Plot.

Now this was in many of Peter Underwood's books, but I mean he's not the only culprit.

There was lots of people that about this wonderful gross story.

1:01:01

Dean Dorothy Selby is buried in Saint Peter's church, IGSIM she died there in 1647, about 40 years after the gunpowder plot of of septicemia after pricking her finger with a needle because she was a quite a gifted seamstress.

1:01:24

Any ghost story that is just a ghost story tends not to have much substance to it.

There might be one or two observations in the last 30 years or something which to be honest, my most sceptical colleagues such as Chris Friend could quite easily correctly explain away.

1:01:55

As you know, walking into a haunted house with expectations and seeing, seeing a shadow from the corner of your eye and so on, The only time you get a really interesting case is actually when there is poltergeist phenomena attached, and then you seem to get the occasional apparition as well, nearly a side effect.

1:02:18

But sadly ghosts don't really get much of A look in when it comes to active ongoing cases.

I'm really sorry to disappoint any listeners and if anyone can find an exception, you know, get in contact to me through Michelle.

1:02:39

But there is not, there are few or any exceptions.

There's some wonderful ghost stories, but you know, I mean Anne Boleyn's supposed to haunt 7 different places.

I mean, does she get paid over time?

I think that's such a good way of putting it.

1:02:57

She gets about doesn't she?

She is the one of the most well travelled ghosts that that is certainly true.

And Mary Queen of Scots for the same reason.

For Scotland, it's just fascinating the the number of locations they're mentioned in.

Yeah, and I mean, and I mean even even if an apparition was seen and nobody, nobody goes up and says hi, I'm Amber Lynn or anything.

1:03:20

It's just, it's just assumed because you've got a wonderful archetype.

And if if it's not Anne Boleyn and it's a shadowy figure that looks vaguely male because it's your black monk.

But again, I think this is where, you know, you highlight some really interesting research that you know has been done before as well as you rightly note in in your book one big Box of paranormal tricks.

1:03:44

You know the the number of of different types of activities, including apparitional ghost sightings that do seem to be connected with the the poltergeist experience.

And again, it does just then raise that question of is it all not the same thing?

1:04:02

Is, is what being experienced here all coming from the same entity, the same source of energy as opposed to this is something that is broken down and being done by various different things.

It's fascinating when you actually see it collated in the manner in which you present in the book.

1:04:19

And again, I mention it is something that you, you reference in the book has been done before, but when you see the data to see the, the, that again, that crossover is a fascinating element that I do think warrants further discussion.

And and like you said, just really looking into what's going on when it comes to poltergeist cases, because this is where I think, like you said, they can offer so much in terms of really trying to understand paranormal activity or possible paranormal activity.

1:04:49

Yeah, it goes, it goes well beyond just, we've spent quite a lot of time talking about with some poltergeist, but it goes potentially way beyond that.

I mean, for example, you've got the case of Rosemary Brown who went into a spiritualist France and started writing automatically writing concertos from long dead composers.

1:05:16

And they were actually artistically very, very competent walks.

I think most musical experts think they copies on the style of other stuff.

But that's a heck of achieve, a heck of an achievement.

1:05:33

Then you look at our old friend Aleister Crowley, who went into a trance and contacted his guardian Angel, Ewas, and never really thought of Crowley as having a guardian Angel, but he did, and in just two hours, if we're to take him at face value.

1:05:53

But there's no reason not to vote his book of his book of law through automatic writing.

Now.

Rosemary Brown from the spirit tradition of spiritualist churches and Aleister Crowley from the tradition of hardcore occultism.

1:06:18

Would hate to think they went through the same process, but when you actually dissect it, what's the difference?

Yeah, absolutely.

And that is the question that I think and and again, this is where I think your book is so good.

1:06:35

You just leave people with these types of questions that just make you think because that is precisely the question that I was thinking about when you were just sharing that it's, it's, it's the what ifs.

It's those, those questions that come out of it that I think are really, really thought provoking to just dig a little bit deeper.

1:06:56

Again, it's fascinating.

And this is where your book is so, so good at doing that.

I think it's an amazing, an amazing, insightful journey into your reflections on the on the field itself.

I've, I've I've put pictures in my head at the moment of of Miss Brown and Mr. Chloley arguing that they have absolutely nothing in common with each other.

1:07:21

It would.

It would certainly make for a good afternoon tea, wouldn't it?

Sat round some lovely little table with some doily, I don't know, tablecloth.

Good, good.

Fly on the warm moment, I think.

Yeah, yeah, we'd have to make sure.

We'd have to make sure Alistair was in his best behaviour though, I suspect.

1:07:39

But I'd actually contend or at least hypothecate that that was going through.

I mean, I mean, how is that different to a shamanistic clamps either?

And how is that really different to the process of self hypnosis?

1:07:56

I mean, I've done some past life hypnotic regression experiments in the past and I was actually trained up to be a competent hypnotist and I'll ask everybody to listen to my voice.

1:08:12

No, I won't.

But it was quite clear when looking at the past lifes that people were coming out with facts and figures that were in the end entirely false, but were also coming out with facts and figures that were known by other members of the group that were entirely correct.

1:08:47

Quick example being a past a past life experience of one of the better hypnotized subjects.

I was a useless one, which is probably why they put me on the other side.

He went back to First World War.

1:09:04

His character or his persona was that a vague student in Cardiff.

He subsequently joined the army and died during World War 1.

He could name all his officers.

He could obviously give himself a name.

1:09:21

They all turned out if not to exist.

The records are good for World War One.

Checks were made, didn't exist.

But he's never been to Cardiff.

He got the walk from his digs to Cardiff University spot on correct.

1:09:43

However, one of the main organisers of this Group, A gentleman called Hugh Pinkcott, knew Cardiff like the back of his hand didn't obviously guide him through the process, but was he not just triggering some kind of ESP by getting somebody into a deep trance?

1:10:07

It's it's fascinating.

It's, it's something that I've touched upon recently with talking to Paul Goddard in terms of what could be happening.

And he raises exactly the same point, you know, is this just just some form of, of channelling of some form of ESP Yeah.

1:10:23

And again, like you mentioned, when you look at when you look at other cultures and use of certain drugs, for example, to to get into those similar type states all the way back historically, you know, when we think of very early civilizations doing the same thing, you can see again, this this blending and this crossover.

1:10:44

Can't you very much taking place in terms of what's being experienced and what is potentially happening.

Again, it just starts to open up again those deeper, wider questions as to what actually is being experienced.

And again, does it all kind of come under the same umbrella?

1:11:00

And I think we're kind of then left with, if we just accept it for argument's sake, is the paranormal an energy that gives a catalyst for outside for us is or is it wholly something within us?

1:11:16

And that's kind of very much up for grabs.

But I kind of err slightly towards the Something Within us theory, simply because paranormal entities tend to talk a lot of rubbish.

1:11:36

I mean, there was a case we were talking about, the confidential case we were talking about earlier, where there has been numerous spontaneous PK but without any attempt to communicate whatsoever.

1:11:55

And when communication does occur, the the quote I love best is actually one from again from my sceptical friend Chris, Chris French, who pointed out that during the Enfield case that the what was it 12 or 13 year old girl Janet, when she was apparently possessed by the ghost of an old man and started speaking in that famous graph voice, which, you know, there's been a lot of debate whether it's possible under normal circumstances or not, nevertheless kept asking questions about menstruation.

1:12:37

Now, as Chris says, would an elderly man suddenly getting the chance to talk to the outside world suddenly want to talk about menstruation?

Probably not.

1:12:54

Would a 12 or 13 year old girl who suddenly let's a subconscious loose want to dwell on important questions about that subject?

Yeah, probably more likely.

Yeah.

Again, very interesting ponderance as on on those events and and like you said just kind of brings home just this need for deeper questioning and deeper kind of analysis as we've we've been mentioning.

1:13:21

Absolutely, absolutely.

I mean, I mean, my book one big box of paranormal tricks.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say the rest gets far too long is I'd call it a meditation.

It kind of goes through what I've been up to over the last X number of years and how I tried to make kind of gradually try to make sense of it.

1:13:42

It doesn't in any way try to turn anyone's views, you know, sort of head over heels, just kind of gives a gentle prod to the possibilities.

It's not an academic book, not meant to be.

1:13:59

It's a book for people that want to have a nice relaxed think around the around the subject.

It's also a bit self depreciating at times because I always start with the thing.

1:14:16

Anyone that spends X number of years trying to make sense of the paranormal must be a little bit bonkers anyway.

But I think it's, it's like you said, it is almost a journey of your experiences, but it does present some very interesting questions and hypothesis.

1:14:34

You know, just thinking off the top of my head from from the reading, you know, the the notion of possible connections, say for example, between residual energy, residual hauntings, apparitional hauntings and poltergeist as we've been talking about, you know, this idea that they're one in the same.

1:14:54

That is this simply, is this simply all coming from the same thing that is has petered out or is then manifesting in some other form whereby you're having things being thrown.

For example, Again, it starts to make sense when you see that in many locations where you have poltergeist activity, you have these types of hauntings, these apparitional experiences earlier kind of running side by side.

1:15:24

Again, just starts to bring out these really intriguing thoughts that just make you think about what it is that you're.

You know, we've been talking about this crossover, this blend of this idea of the one paranormal power as you as you kind of use a new term within the book.

1:15:42

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I kind of, I don't think we're quite there yet.

I mean, I mean the paranormals in its pre scientific stage.

But like I, I tend to make like making the analogy.

1:15:59

Isaac Newton was kind of tried his hand at alchemy before inventing the series of gravity.

So he kind of went through the pre scientific stage as well and he didn't do too bad in the end.

1:16:14

But if we are going to try to get the paranormal to fit into the world at all, I mean, any scientific revolution, you know, Einstein, relativity, Newton gravity and so on, has always been one overriding idea.

1:16:35

This idea that we've somehow got, you know, the, the apple gravity of ghosts is somehow separate from the banana gravity of poltergeists.

I mean, you know, Newton obviously wouldn't have, wouldn't, wouldn't have tried to split the two.

1:16:56

They're just two objects behaving in the same way due to behaving under the same power, but they're slightly different objects, so they behave in slightly different ways.

So we're ever going to make sense of this in science?

I think there has to be 1 overriding theory for at least most of the anomalies that still exist, not them all.

1:17:20

I mean.

I mean if UFOs exist not as earth lights but actually as alien travellers.

Which is of course is not only hypothetically possible, but in the scale of the universe quite likely.

1:17:37

I mean they would, well they would actually fit into the our our our normal frame of science far easier than other stuff.

Stuff for the paranormal.

We just have to walk out how they got there so quickly and we're goodness knows how many light years away from the nearest identifiable habitable planet.

1:17:57

But it wouldn't cover absolutely everything, but it would cover the vast majority of what we think of as paranormal, I think.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, just kind of coming back to what you were just talking about, I think we've some, we sometimes made it very difficult for ourselves by breaking them down into the categories the way that has happened.

1:18:20

Because it does kind of mean everybody is then looking at it from that very narrow perspective as opposed to seeing the commonalities across them and starting to apply joint thinking and approaches to similar experiences or, or similar phenomena.

1:18:39

And like I said, I think it just makes sometimes a rod for our own backs in terms of trying to understand what is, like you said, is there something overarching all of these things that could group them all together that is that missing, that missing link, that missing understanding of what's going on?

1:18:59

I couldn't agree with you, MO.

Yeah, you put.

I have nothing to add to that.

You put it as well as I could possibly put it, I think.

But it is a really.

Really intriguing theory though, this one paranormal power idea and it is something that I think you know for, for sceptics, they will, they will kind of look at that and go, well, how can you possibly rationalize that everything could be done by one thing when there are things like UFOs, when there are things like cryptids, when there are literally so many different areas?

1:19:29

How can it possibly all come under 1 heading or or as much of that under 1 heading as possible when these are seem seemingly so unique?

What would you say to that as a counter for anyone who would?

Who would argue otherwise or try to argue otherwise?

1:19:45

Absolutely.

It's a weird, it's a weird argument for a sceptic that doesn't believe in cryptids to begin with.

I mean, let's take care here because if we, I mean there are unknown animals.

Bigfoot may or may not exist.

If it does exist, it might actually be a real creature.

1:20:04

The There's actually quite a lot of evidence of the Yeti as being a hybrid.

A hybrid polar bear.

And that wouldn't actually, that wouldn't actually a stone, a stone science.

But if we're talking about cryptids, what are they?

The ghosts, the apparitions are just taking on a slightly different identity to our headless horsemen.

1:20:26

I mean, I mean they're just an added an added term to to the vampires, the great ladies and so on.

I mean, what else are they supposed to be?

You know, it's, it's just a new one that somebody's kind of chucked in.

1:20:42

But exactly, and again, I think this comes back to what we were talking about earlier.

You know, there is an element here as well of the of the person experiencing as well and the interpretation and then how that is then described.

And it it raises, again, I think a question that you bring up in the book in terms of whatever is, you know, whatever is being experienced.

1:21:04

Is this something that you are experiencing as that, or is it something that is being put into your consciousness based on your own cultural references, your own historical references, You know, all of those things that again, make up how we interpret something that we are experiencing.

1:21:22

You know, again, there's, there's considerable overlap, which again, I think plays into precisely that, you know, when we think about cryptids, you know, could this just be something you are experiencing based on where you are, the location that, you know, stories, the animals that are there?

1:21:39

There again, there is this crossover and there is this bleeding over of, of different possibilities.

I think, which for me, again, we really does reinforce this idea.

I think of the possibility of one paranormal driving force.

But what is the the the thing that changes things up is us as the the human person experiencing it.

1:22:02

That might mean that I will see something or experience something and interpret it one way.

Someone else will experience something and have a different a different outcome, a different response to that, based on how they've interpreted it.

Yeah, I mean, if you come from Colombia, you might you might refer to a ghost spoke Poltergeist experience as a duande, which unfortunately translates as goblins.

1:22:28

So nobody in the West would take you seriously because we we're OK with some great ladies, but goblins are just a bit too stupid for us, if you know what I mean.

What I think if we were arguing about sceptics, I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I'm actually late touch sceptic myself.

1:22:48

But what I would say to a sceptic is if once we get rid of the terminology, we have similar types of events happening to people in similar states of mind and predominating also in particular pieces.

1:23:13

And if that scenario is happening, once we've got rid of the terminology all around the globe, you have something that is inexplicable happening.

1:23:29

And any good open minded scientist should want to know what that is.

Even if you start from thinking this is a weird innate psychological phenomena within us, to which I would then say I don't know any psychological phenomena that can throw a stone, but we would have that debate.

1:23:57

So I think in some ways getting rid of all the boxes and having a bigger box actually strengthens a paranormal and gives something coherent for open minded sceptics to have a look at.

1:24:16

Yeah.

And I think the way that you've just explained that is actually really hitting the nail on the head.

I think it, it's starting from that position of like you would with any kind of science experiment, you don't want to have the outcome for, you know, written ahead of time and therefore kind of alter what you're doing and your approach to try and get the the result that you want.

1:24:40

And I think when we have a label and a term instead of really just truly analysing the data and thinking about what's happening and what's occurring, we can start to miss things.

And I think that's what happens when we don't look at again this big overall picture.

1:24:56

I think we start to miss some of the the subtleties that are there that exist that show that there is this very much like you said, this crossover of experiences that is very suggestive of it, something bigger going on.

1:25:12

Yeah.

And I mean we also, I mean I gave demonologist, sorry, sorry, I need demonologist listening a little bit of a hard time earlier.

But what they do is no better, no wrath than what the sceptics with a capital K do.

1:25:33

They have answered the question before they even start their quest and by doing so, I don't even know.

I don't even know why I never understand why skeptics was a capital K or even interested in in investigating something that they know does not exist.

1:25:56

It's it's it's like a.

Waste of time.

Seems an entirely unscientific way of going of going into it.

What I meant by demonologist, where you present yourself, I have no problem with anyone coming from a, a more fundamentalist judeo-christian background.

1:26:18

But if you are going to publicly investigate something, you, everyone's got their own belief system.

I, I, I probably have as well.

But if you're going to investigate something, you have to at least try to put it to one side and not to put it on your business card for sure.

1:26:38

You know, I mean, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure if I if I said it might be inappropriate to do to investigate a sensitive case as a demonologist, imagine going in as a skeptic and basically saying, oh, you're just hallucinating all this, it's this the load of rubbish, etcetera.

1:26:58

I mean, that's more liable to up the stress factors and not do the person who is having the experiences any good either.

So.

Just kind of thinking and bringing, bringing the focus back to your book.

1:27:13

The one big box of paranormal tricks.

From ghost to poltergeist, in theory, you're just one paranormal power.

Yeah, I know.

It's such a long title, I know.

I've really bad habit poltergeist.

The poltergeist 1's just as bad.

I was only I was only mucking around there.

I think I needed to put put ghosts and poltergeists in it to make sure people regarded it as a sort of step beyond my previous book.

1:27:37

But yes, it it's a bit widely.

I think it reflects though, the journey I think it's perfect for.

I think it's perfect for what you do and what it's showing because it is so all-encompassing that it just doesn't fit into one, one thing in the title.

It can't be short.

1:27:52

It has to kind of cover all of it, which I think is is the necessity of it.

Do you want to just give a, a summary then of what the book discusses?

You know, who is the book for?

Is it for everybody?

The the bookers for thinkers, romantics and dreamers.

1:28:09

Now that's how that that that's, that's kind of sounded like a profound load of twaddle, but it's actually written in a way that I hope also keeps people aware to the romance of the paranormal because it is a wonderfully romantic thing.

1:28:29

And it can be both scientific and also in awe of the possibility of what if.

And it also it, there's a chunk, there's a chunk of religion in there as well.

And it kind of goes through what I think is a process, a thinking process or a journey that I think everybody is the better for going through whatever conclusions they come to.

1:29:00

It's not a conventional anti anti anti anti paranormal book.

It's a book that I hope you can sort of gives you the so.

1:29:17

Ah, yes.

Oh, Nah, sort of makes you think it was done.

It's part of a series called Paranormal Perspectives, which is why the title is even longer.

And my publisher collective ink 6 books are doing about 5 or 6 which is giving, would you believe, paranormal perspectives from the perspective of different people with different types of involvement in the paranormal.

1:29:55

So it's and I would recommend buying buying the others when they come out as well of course.

What's the the best way for someone to get hold of a a copy of the book?

And of course your other books.

Where's the best place for them to go to to to grab a copy?

Well, the the 2010 Ghost Hunting 1 is out of print.

1:30:17

There's usually a couple of coffees around in Amazon or the big second hand book shops, you know, online, say sellers.

The two that are are obviously more modern and pertinent.

1:30:34

Poltergeist and One big Box.

They are available on Amazon, on Kindle, on most other bookstores.

If you're Australian, it doesn't come out till December the 8th I think, so apologies about that.

1:30:52

But in most other places they are out and easily accessed either on the Internet or possibly in specialist book shops as well.

I have yet to explore enough of them to to to find out whether one big box is there or not.

1:31:12

It should be, it should very much be on every bookshelf everywhere.

It's such a good book.

It's so insightful and I think, you know, kind of following on from from certainly my take on it.

What would you hope are maybe some of the next steps?

1:31:28

What would you like to see people do with this book?

Are there things that you would like to see followed up on in terms of theories and themes that you bring up in the book?

What would you hope people take out from it and kind of do with it as the as the next steps if possible?

1:31:44

Well, anyone that's considers themselves a paranormal investigator I I would hope they would walk away aware of the CV and at least take a passing interest into whether it fits into whatever case they happen to be investigating.

1:32:06

Anyone else?

I just hope they'll enjoy it and it'll make them think about the limitless possibilities in life to be honest.

Because it is a, it is actually I, I just realized I'd actually put this as a secondary title in religious philosophy.

1:32:31

And it actually it is.

It isn't strictly speaking a religious philosophy book, but it does have an element of that in it.

And it just momentarily got to #1 and hot new bestsellers.

There's probably only so many hot new best selling religious philosophy books.

1:32:48

So it shows, it's kind of a, it's trying to appeal to a wider audience and the ghost hunter, anyone that just wants to have a meditation and you know, on whether there might be something else in life or not would probably enjoy it as well.

1:33:06

Honestly, I think it's a phenomenal book and it's certainly one that I would recommend for.

Like you said, I don't think it it it kind of fits into one category as to who it's suitable for, because I do think it touches on all of these bigger questions that we might have, whether we're coming at it from religion or ghost hunting or, you know, if we have an interest in UFOs or whatever.

1:33:29

I think you can bring that to reading this book and find something very meaningful from from reading it.

I really do think it makes you just pause and start to reflect, like you said, about what's happening around us or could be happening around us as part of our everyday lives.

1:33:46

And and for that reason, I do think it is such a phenomenal read for every for anybody, whatever kind of level that they come at it from an experience.

I think it's something that people will take something quite meaningful away from.

So yeah, it's definitely a book that I recommend as as well as your other writings.

1:34:05

So, you know, I'll make sure, I'll make sure to make sure that the links for your books and for you are readily available in the in the podcast description notes as as well as on the website.

Because like I said, I hope people go away and follow this up because I don't think people would be disappointed to to grab a copy and and dip their toes into this.

1:34:26

I think they'll find it really interesting.

Yeah, I hope so.

I hope people follow up with that and, and take a read because I just, I just think like I said, it will be eye opening for so many people.

I think just making you stop and start making you question and think and and look at it again, I think is never a bad thing.

1:34:48

Absolutely.

Honestly, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you and to kind of dive into a little bit more about your process and, and how you came at this and how it has kind of almost rolled out this from what you've been doing, how you can see the cases that you've also been part of has also very much played a part in some of the research and the writing in the, and that journey for yourself.

1:35:12

It's, it's been really intriguing to talk about it further with you.

So honestly, John, thank you so much for your time in in coming along and talking about it for the people listening to the podcast.

It's been a pleasure, Michelle.

Thank you for having me on your podcast.

And I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

1:35:29

Bye everybody.

1:35:46

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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1:36:02

Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.