0:00
Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.
I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history.
0:16
Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.
That's the realm we invite you to explore with us each episode.
0:32
We'll unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.
We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.
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But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.
Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.
1:09
Feel free to share with friends and family.
The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.
So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.
1:30
Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.
And now, let's introduce today's podcast or guest.
1:58
Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where we unravel the mysteries of the supernatural and dive deep into the eerie tales of the past.
Imagine a world where the line between the living and the dead blurs, where the echoes of the past linger in the present, and every creaking floorboard and ghostly whisper tells a story.
2:21
Today we're delving into the heart of a documentary, but not only explores the paranormal, but also serves as a personal journey for its creator.
My Ghostly Footsteps is the brainchild of acclaimed film maker Guy Gilbert.
As a young boy, Guy was no stranger to the supernatural.
2:41
In fact, he was downright terrified when he heard a ghostly presence in a haunted house.
Now, as an adult, he embarks in a courageous quest to unravel the mysteries of his own childhood.
Was it a ghost that he heard, or was it merely the product of an overactive imagination?
3:02
In this 47 minute cinematic journey, Guy takes us on an intimate exploration of his own unsettling past.
Instead of relying on the typical ghost hunting formula that saturates the genre, he opts for a refreshingly personal approach.
3:19
The lens of his camera becomes a portal to the other side as he enlists the help of seasoned paranormal investigators to uncover the truth behind his ghostly encounter.
My Ghostly Footsteps breaks away from the conventions of the genre, offering a departure from the formulaic approach we've grown accustomed to.
3:42
Rather than a team of investigators chasing spectres for the camera, Guy Gilbert invites us into the heart of his own haunted history.
Joining me today is none other then the award-winning film director himself.
Guy will share some of the insurance and outs of the documentary, shedding light on the challenges and revelations that emerged during the production.
4:06
But that's not all.
We also have other special guests joining the podcast discussion, individuals who are part of the production, filming and investigation, each bringing their unique perspectives and encounters to the table.
4:23
So get ready to embark on a journey that transcends the ordinary, where every footstep carries the weight of a ghostly presence and every shadow conceals a long forgotten story.
Dim the lights, grab your favorite blanket and join us as we explore the haunting landscapes of My Ghostly Footsteps with the visionary film maker Guy Gilbert and our other esteemed guests who will be introduced throughout the podcast.
4:59
Hi, Guy.
Thank you so much for joining me this evening.
Hello.
Hi.
Do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?
Well, I'm a documentary film maker.
I've been one for about 20 years now and I've made many documentaries for the BBC for Channel 4.
5:18
Many one offs, quite a lot of series like the undateables.
So there's a lot of shows are quite popular and a lot of more quirky.
One off docs.
Themes are maybe more unusual than most docs.
5:34
And you have just produced the documentary My Ghostly Footsteps, which comes from something that happened to you in your own childhood.
I mean, there is something there that happened that really kind of pushed you to explore this documentary, you know, explore that through the documentary.
5:55
Do you want to just begin by recounting that childhood childhood experience of of hearing footsteps out your bed, you know, outside your bedroom door, and how that really did influence you into wanting to do this documentary?
Well, yeah, I mean I've made many documentaries about vast range of subjects, but this is 1 subject I've always thought I really want to explore more.
6:17
I ghosts basically.
And I've never made a film about ghosts.
And I thought, well you know, I'd love to make a film about ghosts, but actually I I had an experience myself as a child that I've never really understood and I've never explored.
6:33
So that's where it came from.
And I suddenly thought, well, why don't I just get a camera and do it myself?
And that's what I did.
I literally bought a camera.
I rang up the Bristol's most famous ghost hunter and made this documentary.
And it's basically about when I was a child, I would say, I think it's about 13.
6:53
I used to go to my granny's house, which is up in north in Northumberland in Newcastle every summer.
And this house is, I mean, it's very old house.
It's about 400 years old, I think, something like that very spooky place.
7:09
And I never experienced anything, but my granny always told me about she'd see ghosts in this house and I thought she'd she'd come in my room light and say, oh, I just saw the the maid again.
7:26
She walked through my room with a candle and I went, whoa, so as a kid it's all a bit, I actually weirdly now.
I actually thought it was all quite funny because my father used to be around and we'd all laugh and it's all quite humorous.
No one really took her that seriously, even though she was a very clever lady.
7:43
She was a mathematician, so I always thought that was really odd, having a very clever, rational person seeing ghosts.
But anyway, one night she had to go to the vet because her cat was dying.
And so it was in the middle of the night and she had to take the cat to the vet with with my grandfather and I was left alone in the house.
8:08
There was no my brother wasn't there that night.
So I was left alone and basically I haunted a house and I was about 13 lying in bed.
It was night time.
I remember it was really quite a windy night.
There's a lot of banging of windows and I just suddenly went into this state of terror.
8:26
I I just I just suddenly thought my God this house is haunted and I'm in it and I'm on my own and it's I I just don't want to see anything or hear anything And then I start hearing like I thought there were footsteps in the hall outside my bedroom.
8:45
And I I I've never experienced terror like that in my life.
I and I've done a lot of stuff.
Like I swam with the great white shark before, and that did not compare with the sheer terror of thinking as a ghost coming into my room when I and I literally hid under the bed, bedclothes, closed my eyes and said, and I I remember thinking, if this ghost comes in my room, I'm going to die.
9:12
It was that bad.
I thought I was going to die.
And thank God no one came in the room because I don't know what I would have done.
I mean, looking back now, was it a burglar?
I I don't think it was.
No.
There's never been a burglary in that house.
My granny was definitely not there she because I remember when they they came back about an hour later so that So what was it It wasn't I've no I that's basically what the film was about.
9:39
What then Earth was that noise that scared me when I was a child?
I think it makes part of the uniqueness of this documentary is precisely that it's coming from this perspective of quite an intimate journey, in the sense that you're exploring this childhood encounter, but from the position of being an adult, looking back and starting from that premise but then allowing it to expand, to really look at the paranormal, to look at investigating and to see it from ground level.
10:13
Yeah, well, what it is.
I mean, so even though I had that experience, I'm a total sceptic.
I do not believe in ghosts at all.
So I which sounds odd, but I just don't.
And I've always assumed there was like there's a tree banging the window or something or or maybe, you know, maybe another cat got into the house, something like that.
10:34
So I thought, what I want to know first of all do ghosts actually exist?
So I was going to I was going to investigate what what what I heard in the haunted house.
But before that, I wanted to know to my own, in my own mind, do ghosts actually exist.
10:53
So that's when I started following Corinne, who was a paranormal investigator in Bristol, and I started following her and her colleagues, going to all these haunted locations.
I mean, I even in the film, even though in the film there's not that many locations I get, I went to loads of them and nothing happened.
11:14
Absolutely nothing happened in anything and I think I went about 5 or 6 and I was getting fed up and I thought this is going nowhere.
I do not think I'm going to ever see or hear anything and that was until I went to, it's called George Jarvis School in Wales and that was that just changed everything for me.
11:33
But again, I think this is where it's it's a bit of a departure from traditional ghost hunting shows in the sense that it's very true to life.
It's not kind of putting things together in such a way that makes what is seen and observed more dramatic for that effect.
11:52
You are getting very true real to life experiences of what it is to be an investigator where a lot of the time not a lot happens, if anything at all.
But then when you do have something, it's so much more compelling because you you're trying to rationalize something and it's very difficult because you've got something that just defies what you're being and it does.
12:15
It makes those moments much more compelling.
And I think for people who who want to understand what happens, as I say, this is a much more true to life experience of what it is that a lot of people do when investigating the paranormal, whether they are skeptic or not, but are still doing this as part of something, whether it's a group, whether it's research, you know from whatever position that they're kind of coming at it from.
12:41
Yeah, look, this documentary is completely real.
There's no fakery at all.
So there's a lot of these terrible shows where like like, it's just all made-up.
So that isn't just something I'm completely not interested in.
So I know the documentaries I make are all completely real, isn't it?
12:58
You know, completely honest.
Yeah, because I have a reputation.
You know, I'm.
I'm made award-winning documentaries.
I certainly didn't want to do anything that had any level of deceit or fakery in, and that was just not interesting to me.
13:14
And if nothing happened when I was filming, then I would just say, look, I'm sorry guys, that nothing.
The ghosts clearly don't exist and I've done my best, but I'm going to walk away now.
Goodbye.
I would have done that, but what happened was after, I don't know, it's probably God, it's probably about six months of filming.
13:34
I had an unbelievable experience in a school in Wales that I just, I literally, I know I'm totally dumbfounded.
Even now I don't understand where we were.
I was filming Corrine and a few others in doing trying to contacts a spirit in the school and we heard tapping noises That and I I just don't understand what's going on, what sort of ghost tapping.
14:00
And I looked and I I actually walked around the school a bit and there was no, I couldn't see anyone tapping in another room.
So that changed everything.
I thought, well, maybe there is something in this, but I don't.
I still don't know.
But I think it's really wonderful that you leave it open for people to go along that journey with you.
14:19
You know, someone observing what's happening isn't being told what to think.
They're just a family on the wall as a perspective, you know, someone who is perceiving what's happening and being able to make that judgement for themselves.
And again, that's very refreshing because you're not being forced down a road to believe a certain thing.
14:40
It's very open to interpretation.
You are just presenting what happened as it happened.
Yeah, yeah.
It's basically, it's called it's an observational documentary, which is what I make.
And so with an observational documentary, you're not constructing anything, you're not writing a script.
14:57
You're not saying I want this to happen.
You basically film and film and film.
I mean, I've made films.
I've shot at like 500 hours of footage.
So you just wait for something to happen and then and then you follow it.
So when something happens, you go with it and and you just see where it takes you.
15:13
And that's what happened in this documentary.
Lots and lots and lots of filming.
And then something happened and I went with her and went, wow, what's going on here?
That's what's what it is.
And obviously you've mentioned that you collaborated with a number of different investigators to delve into this subject.
15:31
What would you say was their role?
You know what it what what was it that they brought that helped you to navigate what they do and the paranormal field in it in general?
Well, with Corinne and her friend called Colin, I I wanted to just go to locations that they told me were haunted because Corinne knows all of them.
15:51
I mean, she's an unbelievable authority and ghosts.
So I just went to all these locations with her and just filmed and hoped something would happen.
But there was another person I I knew about, which he's very famous.
I think everyone knows him in Ghost World, Richard Felix.
16:09
So even though I don't didn't know anything about Ghosts, I knew about Richard Felix.
So I contacted him and I wanted to get his perspective because I think he's very he, he knows the world and he knows about fakery.
So I was wondering if I was getting fooled by by the investigators, were they tricking me?
16:30
Was was I again taken along for a ride?
And I just wanted to find out what, what's the level of fakery here evolved in the Ghost?
The world of ghost hunting and Richard's rich is very honest.
He says again, there are some fakers out there, but some aren't.
16:46
And, you know, people like Corinne and they're just, they're just trying to find the truth.
There's no level of fakery with someone like that.
So I was reassured really by Richard, and with that I thought, I'm going to, I'm going to carry on with this documentary and really understand what happened to me in the house where I heard that ghost.
17:10
And that's what happens in the film.
I then take Richard and Corinne and Colin and we go to my granny's house and.
You know, again, I appreciate that you presented something that allowed people to have these different voices and these different perspectives and different investigators, because not everybody is going to approach the paranormal in the same way.
17:32
But I think at the heart, across all of them, you've got very, you've got people very much who are rational, they are pragmatic, they are investigators in that true sense.
And and again you've got a documentary that highlights their different styles and different techniques.
17:51
And So what you've you've got again is something that is I think a much more rounded perspective of what it is to be an investigator in the paranormal field going on this journey to these different locations.
And again the fact that there are different locations highlighted including your family home is refreshing in the sense that you're not tied to one place.
18:14
You are investigating A wider question across different locations and that's rarely been done before, where you get to really dive deeper over a much longer period and piece together footage that helps to show that journey that you've been on in answering a very specific question.
18:37
Well, yeah, you know, I found out that ghost hunting is a long and arduous journey.
It is not just rocking up at some house haunted house and getting loads of amazing footage.
It's like you know someone like Korean like we're talking years years of just waiting for something to happen.
18:57
It's it's it's I I I didn't have the patience for it but they love I think they love the whole history behind it as well of these buildings that.
So they actually really enjoy going in old buildings and learning more about them.
So, so there's part of that I think they get pleasure in now, but I couldn't do what they do really.
19:17
I think you have to really love it.
I think you have to be really intrigued and interested in the properties, the history as well as that question of you know what, what is going on here, What can we try and uncover that, maybe add something to that, to that kind of body of of research and things that are out there.
19:39
Yeah, I think it it takes real dedication.
Like you said, it's a it's a lot of work and I don't think people appreciate.
That Karina spent like a year and nothing will happen.
But she doesn't give up.
She just keep going.
It's crazy.
I just couldn't do it.
So what would you say from your position at the start of the project were?
19:58
What was your position at the end?
I mean, obviously you said you're a sceptic.
Where would you say you are now?
So part of the film was actually exploration of what I recall trauma.
I don't know if you you picked up on that in the documentary, but I did find it odd that virtually everyone I spoke to had a level of trauma.
20:17
So Corinne lost her father, Rachel lost her brother Richard.
Felix had a very traumatic spirits as a child.
I had AI had a level of trauma.
So I did think what you know is trauma is, is that doing something to our brains where it makes us hear or imagine things.
20:38
So that was that was a big part of what I was exploring.
And I wanted to understand when I went back to my granny's old house was I just in a state of terror on trauma.
And it and it this made me hear all these things and that's what I and I'm still don't know the answer Maybe I'm not.
20:58
Certainly wasn't trauma.
But again, I think they are.
So you know, it's questions like that that so rarely get aired or thought about, but if they do get thought about, they don't get highlighted.
It's more about highlighting something that's happened as opposed to going that step below that, you know, digging below that and and asking the wider, deeper questions.
21:21
And they're so valid, they're so important.
And again, I think the fact that it's it's things like that that do come through the documentary.
Well, yeah, we.
Makes it.
Refresh.
Yeah, I just thought it was an incredible coincidence that everyone I was filming had had what I would call a level of trauma.
21:38
Isn't that bizarre?
And so I did think, well, there must be a link here.
And and my father now lives in the house that's haunted.
And he's a neuroscientist, so he he.
So he's actually, I I think the film's an exploration also of what the brain can do and the power of the brain to make maybe something happen that you think's real and isn't.
22:03
And that's part of the theme of the film.
So my father thinks we're just imagining all of this.
This is all an imagination because the brain is so powerful we don't understand it.
Even my father who's a neuroscientist, he they he doesn't understand what's going on in the brain.
22:19
So it's that I want the film to be trying to uncover 2 worlds.
The world of ghosts and the world of the mystery behind the brain.
Well, I think it's it's bringing together the two worlds of the living, IE as what influence do we play on the experience itself, but then also the supernatural, the world that we're all looking at as you know, ghosts beyond life, death.
22:47
I think it brings those two worlds together in in quite sharp focus to see how how we interplay, if you like.
That's precisely it.
That's that's exactly what I wanted for this documentary.
How do we, how did we interplay with the supernatural?
23:06
And yeah, I tried to try to make that film and hopefully people will enjoy it.
Joining me next is Rachel Hayward.
Rachel grew up on the River Thames at Cookham Lock, where her father was a lock keeper for nearly 30 years.
23:28
Not only was this a unique experience, but the house itself was haunted and was the topic of her book The Lock House Haunting.
When Rachel moved to Gloucestershire in the early 1990s, it was not long before she became involved in the paranormal again and as a result formed the Teen Rope researchers.
23:50
Of paranormal events.
A big part of what you were doing was your involvement with the George Jarvis School.
Do you want to just share some of the historical significance of that particular location?
24:09
My team has been involved with the George Jarvis School for some time.
We've been going in, obviously with permissions and investigating mainly during the day.
In fact, although we've been going in for about a year, last week was the first time we actually went in at night.
24:30
So we've been going in and documenting any activity and then taking that back to the owner so that it can be documented and collaborated.
You know, if if there are any, anything there that comes up that's similar.
24:47
The school was built, it's called the George Jarvis School, but Mr. Jarvis never actually saw the school come to fruition.
He died before it was built.
The money was given by him primarily because he believed that there was not enough educational premises where where the school is located in that sort of in the villages.
25:12
And he believed quite rightly that every child should have access to education, which is why the school was built.
Alongside being a school, it has also housed some military personnel, I think during the Second World War and in between stages as well.
25:32
It stopped being used, I think, in the 1980s and became a bit of an eyesore really.
It was frequented by some undesirable, shall we say, and not used correctly.
25:49
There's a what you don't see on the documentaries.
There's a lot of graffiti and it is still a target for some use to try and break in, but now the owner has tidied it up as best as they can.
It's still very much in its original state, but it now has electricity, it now has security cameras and it's now lockable.
26:12
So it is, it is a safe place to investigate now.
But yeah, it's been many things and it has seen tragedy, which is quite sad for a school I think, but there we go.
It's got quite a reputation, let's put it that way in terms of of activity that it.
26:33
Is yes.
It is very active.
I'm not going to go along the lines of it's the most haunted building in the country because.
Everywhere is.
Everywhere is the most haunted building in the country and I have not been to every building in the country to be able to make that assumption, but it is very active.
26:56
We were there, as I said last week and we had three major pieces of activity which left us all in.
In fact, one who is a massive sceptic is still struggling with what he saw.
27:15
And I think This is why, you know, obviously it's a great location to include in the documentary because it is an active place, it is an active building and but it's also I think very different to other places that we've seen kind of being explored.
27:31
It kind of stands alone in that regard, the regard.
So you've got something very interesting to start off with in terms of its history in the building to kind of highlight and showcase and knowing you as I do and obviously some of the things that you like to explore, it was brilliant to see some of that being documented and highlighted as methods and techniques within the George Jarvis school.
27:55
That segment, it was very emotional.
It was a really, really powerful section of the documentary I think.
And I don't know if you want to elaborate on some of that in terms of the methods and techniques and what you felt came out of it as a result of that.
28:14
Well, the first thing that I could say that you don't see, which I'm actually quite pleased about, was afterwards.
Guy came out and filmed both myself and Kim and we were both crying because that part was, as I said, we didn't realise but it was the best part of two hours, an hour and a half, two hours worth of tapping communication.
28:37
This woman who said her name was Yvonne, was an American, I say servicewoman.
She wouldn't have been allowed to actually serve, but she would have been within the administration.
We understood from what her communication said was that she was there or working within the vicinity of the building and she was basically assaulted, which led to led to her murder.
29:06
We think that's what she said, but it was recorded as suicide.
We are still looking into this, the fact that because she said she was an American service person, obviously we don't have so much of the information over here.
29:24
So we have got somebody looking into it.
But it was extraordinary, A motive, the fact that she wanted to communicate, she wanted to tell her story.
She didn't want to use the board, She didn't want to.
You know, we gave the choice of and we always do.
29:42
If you want to communicate, you tell us how you want to do it kind of thing.
And this is what she came out with.
And what was really fascinating is Karine has an absolute incredible lust and love for history and her knowledge, particularly of the Second World War is incredible.
30:02
And she was asking trick questions that I didn't know the answers to, Kim didn't know the answers to, but the Spirit knew the answers to.
Every time Karine asked a question, the Spirit would either agree or disagree with her correctly.
30:18
It it was absolutely mind boggling.
And it was.
It's really sad because quite often you get, if you do get communication, it is usually of quite a sad nature.
It's very, very rarely is it the aggressive nature that you is portrayed in ghost hunting programmes.
30:36
Usually it is somebody wanting to tell a sad story, to make their mark or whatever it is.
That's what I found anyway.
I'm not going to say that's across the board, but that's what we've found.
And it was, it was, it was really upsetting to think that somebody had come over here to help us and had ended up being treated that badly by her, you know, her own comrades, her own workmates, really, really emotional.
31:07
But again, I think this is what is very unique about this, and I think you touched on it just a moment ago, which is that it's so easy to believe that investigating only leads to certain type of activity or experiences.
Here.
31:23
You've got something very emotional, very raw.
And I think it's really powerful to see investigators really invested in actually trying to understand these encounters that they are moments that matter to them as much as the investigation matters.
31:45
But actually you're speaking to someone as if they are living, you know, you're not disrespecting in any way, shape or form.
And so to see someone so personally invested in, in supporting and almost counselling in the sense that you're, you know, you really are speaking to someone in a way with such profound respect in trying to draw out their story, if that makes sense.
32:13
Again, it's it's a very different, a different perspective to kind of showcase that emotive aspect to it, which is that here are investigators that just care.
And that is the majority of people I know when it comes to what they're doing, when they're going into locations, they care about the the building, they care about those that might be there and the stories that they want to tell.
32:37
Massively.
But that's kind of, I suppose in a way.
That's why I spend hours upon hours hanging around dark locations and sometimes dark with history.
Not necessarily due to lack of sunshine.
It is because we care.
32:53
I mean Natalie who looks after the building, she won't mind me giving a plug with him, you know, it's spectacular.
So they run investigations there.
They also have so many open days.
They raise so much money for the local community.
33:10
The local community are really on board with it being investigated because it's being done in a positive in a positive way.
And the local community, instead of seeing a massive building that really should be pulled down because it's in such a state of disrepair, are actually seeing a building now that is being looked after and being used, being maintained.
33:37
There are toilets that have, you know, the toilets didn't work when when she took on the building, nothing worked at all.
So she, her and her partner have put in a lot of time and a lot of effort because the building can't be pulled down because it's listed to actually look after it.
33:53
And the community are seeing the benefits of it, which I think is as important as hearing the stories of those that may have used the building and gone before.
And that's what it If you're not investigating because you care, then you shouldn't be investigating in my book.
34:13
But This is why I also think as a location, it's also very interesting choice and a brilliant choice because yes, it has the activity, yes, it has wonderful history.
But all too often locations like that don't get shown because they, they don't fit a particular model of the type of building that ends up on a, you know, on ATV show for example.
34:36
And so you're really highlighting a building that in many ways doesn't fit the normal, the the normal kind of what you would expect to see.
This is a building that was very much abandoned and falling into disrepair and like you said, being used and mistreated by lots of people gaining entry.
34:58
And it's getting some love finally.
And so, yeah, to showcase that I think is really important to show, well, actually we can do something about these buildings too.
You know, they, they can be used, they can be investigated, they can be turned around because we see a lot of them all over the place.
35:16
And they can be better, they can be better used for other things with the right people involved.
And the paranormal is one of those fields that I think can be very, you know, useful and a powerful tool to get behind some of these locations.
Absolutely.
I mean, Natalie, bless her, she has, she's taken on three locations.
35:36
One's in Wales, obviously there's a school and there's one in Worcester.
She's got a a nunnery and a hotel.
The other two, one's nunnery, one's the hotel.
So they're three very different buildings.
The hotel was actually a stately, was a Manor house initially and this is what she does.
35:54
She takes a building, she looks after it to make sure that it is weatherproof, health and safety, all of that taken into consideration so that the people that are there, that you know, the communities, they get the benefit of knowing that that building is now safe.
36:13
It's not housing.
People have no fixed abode.
It's not being used for vandalism anymore.
It's not being used for people doing illegal activity.
It's, you know, it's a really good thing and I quite agree.
If we could get more love for more of the buildings in this country, it does seem that the paranormal is is becoming more accepted by the wider community.
36:41
Not massively more, but it's there are small steps going and this would be a great way of maintaining the buildings and actually breathing some life into them so that they've got some income to look after them.
And and This is why, again, I think this documentary is so important and powerful because you as as we said, it's the kind of a family on the wall looking at what investigators typically are doing.
37:07
And there is nothing nefarious about it.
There's nothing harmful about it.
It's very respectful to both the building and the, you know, the location's history, as well as the evidence that's being captured or not captured, because everything is very upfront and so it's so transparent.
37:26
I think that I think it's brilliant to suddenly see something like that with such transparency where you don't feel like it's gimmicky or you don't feel like you're being LED down a particular direction.
And so I think people can really value and see what happens within the paranormal world very much at grassroots level.
37:47
Definitely.
I mean when Guy approached me after speaking to Kareem, I sort of, I said to him, you know, we've we look at this location over in Herefordshire, would you be interested in coming along one day?
And he was really up for it.
38:03
So that's exactly what was filmed with him coming along one day.
There was nothing set up.
That investigation had actually been planned for quite a few weeks.
I'd go even a couple of months so you you know there was there was no set up, nobody knew we were going to be there other than Natalie who who let us in.
38:23
So it was completely a family on the wall.
Natural.
And again, I think what is so important to understand is that you know, you, you had this particular experience in this location, but there were other locations where things didn't come through.
38:38
So what you see is what you get.
It's literally that transparent.
If nothing happens, nothing's been doctored.
And again, I think what it does, because you have, you know, this moment at the school which is so impactful and it's one that you can clearly see resonating on the screen, has left this lasting impression on you as investigators that's so obvious it kind of hit you.
39:05
You kind of get that sense of how significant it is because you see that play out.
You suddenly start to see how moments like this also impact on people who do this day in and day out, which is that they then are taking that moment to do other things with them.
39:23
It spurs them on.
You can see the passion behind what they're doing, but like you mentioned, you know you're taking that and then doing further research.
You're you're not.
It's not something you discard to the back of your brain because this is something important.
That person's story matters to you.
39:40
It doesn't end when you leave the building and close the door, and I think that's all too often.
Again, something that people don't ever see or realise.
But here you're being able to get glimpses into that of these are powerful moments and experience of people who really do do this as part of their role as an investigator or as a team.
40:01
You know, however they do it as an individual.
As a group.
You know, these are moments that they then carry with them and do things with beyond the experience itself, because it's more than just the experience.
Definitely.
This is one of the things that we as as a team do is unlike a lot of teams that you will see go here, there and everywhere.
40:24
Our core investigations are the school and the nunnery.
So you know, we go, can we document and it's not a once in a blue moon kind of thing.
We go as frequently as time and life allows us so that we can continue to document and then can continue to research and and find out, you know, if there you know what truth there is behind all of this, it, you know it also means then that because we mainly investigate during the day, our experiences are quite often we think different until we go back and we say, well XY and Z may or may not have happened and then we get, oh we've had that you know on a night time investigation.
41:14
So it's it's almost like the building is accepting US 24/7.
It's, you know, it's accepting the day and the night time, which is you very rarely get that opportunity to investigate somewhere at whatever time of day or night that you want.
41:32
And that is I think is you know, is is absolutely brilliant with that.
It's one of the reasons I love the building so much.
Yeah, to be able to have that access is is very rare.
But I I I've said before another podcast, I do think it's an it's an area under utilised and missed.
41:51
It's an opportunity missed because who knows what evidence isn't being catalogued or or chances missed to explore something simply because it's it's purpose at that point is for something else or for nothing at all.
It might be doors closed and it might be vacant, but it's debunking that myth that only investigating happens at night time with the the lights off.
42:15
Which you know what purpose does it serve it?
It doesn't.
No, no it doesn't.
And although it it looked very dark when we were in there, that was I think that was around about 4:00 in the afternoon when that took place.
42:30
And it's it's not uncommon actually for us to go and investigate daytime.
It actually works out more expensive because rather than go somewhere of an evening, if they're charging, we'll actually hire it for a a longer period of time.
42:48
So we can actually see what's you know, or hopefully see what's going on.
More often than not you get nothing at all, but it makes those rare times when something does happen it, but it makes it that much more special.
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43:11
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45:58
What's coming up next?
One of the other things that I really appreciated watching the documentary was that you get a real sense of discussion that's very rational when approaching things that are happening.
46:17
You know things aren't being taken as as fact immediately.
It's something really investigated and and probed if that makes sense, so that you can get this real distinction and differentiation between what potentially is something but also could be something very rationally something else.
46:38
And so you've got this again it's this fly on the on the wall approach of you're really seeing investigators doing what they naturally do on their home ground, if that makes sense.
Whereby they're they're asking those questions and going through those thought processes that they they normally go through that you're able to see play out.
47:00
As opposed to, again, the let's run around like headless chickens telling people it's something immediately, without ever giving the other side of it that more reflective, sceptical.
Let's be very rational and calm about what it is that we're experiencing right now.
47:17
And again, it makes it much more authentic, much more genuine, much more realistic.
I quite agree I I'm I couldn't think of doing it any other way I.
Know it's your natural being.
It's my natural way to work.
It's a team's natural way to work.
47:33
And those that we work with outside of the team, like Karine and her team, it is.
So that's how we work.
We we don't go, Oh my God, that's a ghost.
Oh, quick, let's you know, we'll look into it.
And we we with the tapping, we spent ages trying to work out where it was coming from.
47:53
We were, you know, Corinne's the gadget girl.
I'm not a gadget minded person, but we were trying to you know, we've got she had them like vibration things.
So we were putting them against the wall, against the shutters, on the floor, on the table, on people's chairs, trying to work out where this sound was coming from and there was not a natural explanation for it.
48:14
It was bizarre.
But again, showcasing some of that, those moments where you're you, I don't want to say debunking, but trying to explain something to rationally explain what it could be first.
How and where do we see stuff like that happen?
48:31
Well.
This is it, yeah.
But it's an important step and an important aspect to be really that thorough.
And I mean, we've talked before on previous podcasts about how, you know, investigation is an investigation.
It's a word, It's a verb.
48:46
It's an active word.
You're doing something.
And in order to to be active in that process, you, you don't just take what's happening to you at at face value.
You've got to interrogate it.
You've got to understand it.
You've got to be able to exclude as much as you include.
49:04
And again, it's just amazing that you see something play out like you're an invisible witness in the room of something happening.
And yes, it's a kind of a diluted version of that, that hours and hours of footage, but you really do get the sense of this is exactly what was happening in the whole entirety of the of the filming.
49:29
You know, because you aren't just cherry picking best moments, you're seeing moments where not a lot is happening as well.
And so it's it's very much a kind of a microcosm of the whole thing.
And yeah, again, just very, very refreshing to see that.
49:46
Yes, I that was, I suppose when Guy sort of gave me the the blurb of what he what he wanted from the documentary.
That was the reason why I agreed to say yes.
It was because we weren't being LED, we weren't told what to do.
50:04
We were being ourselves and working our way.
And that was the result basically, which I I am really proud of.
And I just hope we know people watching it, we've mentioned how there is this lasting impression that it's had on investigators who are part of some of those moments that, you know, they stick with you.
50:24
I'm just hoping that people watch that get that same sense that it's it's something that they tangibly feel is different and a kind of a way for a way forward of how to investigate, but also just to have a very much a deeper understanding of the paranormal world in a very different way.
50:44
To see it from a different lens and a different perspective is is where I hope people go with it.
I hope so.
I do hope so.
It's it isn't all about sitting around trying to get results, it's about examining those results and being more in depth.
51:03
It is exactly, he said.
It's investigating and it's doing it properly, which it's very hard.
I suppose a lot of like the ghost hunting groups, they don't need to do that because they're taking people out and it's for entertainment and that's fine.
You can go out, hopefully see a cat ball go off or something like that and you go away happy.
51:25
That's not what true investigating is about, and as you say, hopefully if somebody will take that away and maybe use some of that for their own investigation, then it can only be a good thing.
One of the things that is interesting is that there are moments I think where you do see some of the the you know, guys scepticism challenged in the sense that there are some very interesting moments that are very, very difficult to rational, you know rationally explain in in any capacity.
52:00
They are quite you know, hair raising moments that as an investigator, as someone who's been involved in in investigations are quite stand out I think.
And so you can see those play out on camera, you can see it play out as you watch the documentary.
52:16
And I suppose you know a question to follow on from that is impacts on you and the others, you know overall in the team.
Did it lead to any personal shifts or thoughts or outcomes for you know, you all really in terms of what you think it it produced or what you know the outcome of what you think you got at the end of it all?
52:36
For myself and Kim, it has given us another another area to examine.
One of one of the first times we went there, we we were in the same room and I think hopefully you noticed that behind in the corner there's a a shelf full of dolls.
52:54
Those dolls have been that they are of no significance to the building whatsoever.
They have been brought in purely just to help decorate the place.
The first time we were there, we asked that if it if something was there, could it throw a doll off?
53:13
And it did.
Whether it's coincidence, I'm not prepared to say.
But we we looked and the dole seemed to all be quite firmly there.
So there does seem to be many different layers to this building, which is giving us different things to look at every time we go back and investigate.
53:35
And as I said, we were there last week.
We went in that room.
We asked for the same spirit and we had absolutely nothing, but we did have other things.
So you know, there is an awful lot that needs still to be investigated there and to be documented and to be researched.
53:56
It's not going to be a one year wonder.
The documentary itself almost reflects that same kind of outcome in the sense that it doesn't feel like something's being tied up completely.
You know, there is the, you know, the door feels very much open in the sense that investigation is something that continues.
54:17
And therefore these questions that are kind of the premise behind the original idea in the documentary and what you're bringing into each of these separate locations, these are something that's are still there.
You know it's an it's an evolving ongoing process.
54:34
Like you said, there's layers to it definitely And how therefore someone can fill in a one hour show you can answer everything and have a complete you know definitive answer to well this is something that is this this or this is is kind of a a farce.
54:54
But again here you've got something very much that reflects what you just said was your own personal revelation, you know, experience, outcome, which is there are layers to this.
And I think that the documentary reflects that.
You see layers of types of activity, experiences or lack of experiences.
55:14
And I think what it does is just prove the importance to keep investigating in this way, to have teams going into locations in the way that you do to keep exploring in this type of manner.
Because it's only by doing that that maybe we will get further ahead some answers or at least be cataloguing and understanding something at a deeper level, a personal level.
55:42
And so yeah, I think it's, I think it very much reflects that from the position of you know someone who's watched the documentary, seeing it unfolding, you know the 40 plus minutes you you kind of see that reflected back in in how it plays out on the screen.
I was just thinking while you were talking then you know we are only ever caretakers for a building.
56:03
Although we may have a mortgage that says we own this building, we are only ever caretakers for it.
Which means that within a building's lifetime, it will metaphorically see so much and the land before it was built will also see so much.
56:23
So you cannot tie anything up in 40 minutes.
It's impossible and I think it's it's really important to remember that we are just caretakers.
And when we go, whether it be because we move house or, you know, they find a slumped in the chair age 90 or something like that, there'll be somebody after us who will also just be a caretaker for that building and they will have their own story to tell.
56:52
And that's the important thing, is to remember that there is always going to be more than one story.
And I again, I think this is what is so powerful about my ghostly footsteps, because you're seeing a story, you're seeing a narrative, you're, you know, you're seeing an experience that happened in someone's childhood that's prompted going down this this rabbit hole, if you like.
57:15
And you get this, the chance to step into some different locations with different stories, with different people along that process.
But we as the people observing that are experiencing it with that position of being able to then draw our own conclusions, take from it what we will.
57:37
But it's a very genuine and authentic journey along the way that we get brought into.
And hopefully it it it prompts people to have a a more realistic understanding of what happens, but also maybe a more reflective understanding of what happens and respect of what people are doing.
57:59
I think to then be able to bring that to maybe what they're doing or their understanding of the paranormal or if they have experiences that they feel that maybe it's it's worth not feeling like it's something that they can't ever share.
58:16
Because, you know, here you've got guy who had this experience, quite rational, quite, you know, skeptical, who is exploring the possibility.
He's not saying definitively one way or the other, but it's that bit of human nature.
58:32
It's OK to ask questions, to explore and to kind of proceed in that manner.
It it doesn't necessarily mean the sky is going to fall down just by daring to ask something that we don't have the answers to.
No, exactly.
This is, this is, I suppose, been a thing with me for as long as I've been doing that.
58:51
But you know if you are worried, concerned, curious as to something that's happened, speak about it there.
There is, I think there are over currently there are just over 12,000 paranormal teens in the UK alone.
59:14
So you can, if you have that issue, you can almost guarantee that you're going to know somebody or know somebody that knows somebody that knows a little bit about this.
You don't have to be worried.
You don't have to be upset by it because there is always going to be someone fairly close that you can speak to and ask questions and and then you know, try and understand it a bit more.
59:48
Joining the discussion next is Corinne Besant.
Corinne is an experienced paranormal investigator who is part of the Jamaica Inn Paranormal Team.
She is also a paranormal consultant for venues and private heritage businesses as well As for Visit Somerset.
1:00:06
Corinne is a founding member of the UK Paranormal Society and is passionate about protecting heritage locations.
She was also the assistant producer.
With the documentary My Ghostly Footsteps.
So Corinne, you played quite a pivotal role as one of the investigators in My Ghostly Footsteps.
1:00:27
Do you want to just describe what your role was and your responsibilities were as part of this documentary?
Really.
Yes, certainly.
I had an e-mail nearly three years ago now by Guy Gilbert and not knowing anything who he was or you know what he did for a living.
1:00:47
We agreed to meet in a local pub for safety reasons of course, and he chatted about this idea that he had to do a documentary.
And I said that's brilliant.
But from my point of view, having done paranormal TV, that I wanted it to be real and and not an entertainment, you know a real documentary what's in or.
1:01:15
And he was very, very kind and said, yeah that's what I'm looking for.
I'm looking at a sceptical angle And I said right, what do you want?
He said right what I need is places and investigators.
So I then went to some fabulous investigators that I know and also obviously the wonderful, talented Richard Felix because he is so good on the screen, you know that he would absolutely make it fantastic, which he did.
1:01:54
So the first location we actually did was a charity location that's very dear to my heart.
That which I advise in the background is the Bristol Warmly Clock tower where we got a group of investigators from the southwest and just to show him different beliefs etcetera, because he wanted to see how this all worked.
1:02:19
He had no idea what the paranormal investigator was, what belief systems approaches, etcetera, because it was so different.
Depends on who you spoke to.
So we introduced him to that and then we took him down to Jamaica Inn on a public night so we can see how we cater for members of the public.
1:02:42
So he had his sort of baptism by fire, so to speak.
So then he said, right, I want to do other places.
Now, obviously when you're filming for a documentary, you tend to go to lots of places, which we did, which didn't make the final edit.
1:03:03
But we were very, very lucky to have access to Chillingham Castle and the old Vicarage Hotel in Bridgewater and Drake low tunnels, which some little things happened.
1:03:21
But for Guy, it wasn't enough to include in the documentary, which I fully understand.
Then after we'd done all this filming, he wanted to get to know some of us.
So Rachel and myself and Richard Felix, he wanted to understand why we do what we do and his point of view that it was, you know, something to do with death, grief, that sort of thing, and to look at it from that angle.
1:03:57
So it then culminated in going to his grandmother's farm in Northumberland, which myself, a colleague and Richard Felix stayed for two nights.
1:04:12
And it was such an honour to be welcomed into this lovely home by his scientist father and to watch the look of the amusement on his father's face while we investigated the property.
1:04:29
It's really refreshing in the sense that you do have a variety of different people, very different perspectives, very different takes, but yet at the heart something very much in common with each other, exploring the the paranormal.
1:04:45
I think it highlights and showcases the paranormal in a very different light.
Exactly.
You know some of the other places we had nothing, Nothing at all, and that is the chance you take while investigating.
1:05:02
Now the more sceptical you are, the less paranormal things would happen because you will have a more rational, debunking approach to what some people consider paranormal activity.
But I have to say, hands on heart, what we experienced at the George Jarvis School I will never forget to the end of my life.
1:05:28
There's no fakery about that.
There is just something very real and honest about.
You're only putting across what you've experienced, what you've seen.
Yeah.
And even though there was a camera on us, we just did what we always do and investigate.
1:05:45
It's very easy if you know in the edit or how you investigate to make it a wonderful everything happening show.
But that wasn't the purpose.
And I think when you see the emotion from myself, Rachel and cameras at the George Jarvis at the end of this amazing session, you will see that the passion and the thought that just maybe that hour and a half of response was from a person that once lived during the 1940s.
1:06:27
And to have that to me is remarkable.
And it just gives you that fleeting chance that there may be life after death after all.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And again, I think those moments then really do stand out because they are very real and very honest and you're not kind of being bombarded with so many different things, you know, which rationally could be so many other things.
1:07:01
But yet when you have something unexplainable, when you can't rationalize it when it is there and it is so unique like that it that's that's the kind of the standout moment.
But they don't happen all of the time.
And again what you've got is something that very much reflects what it is like I think to be a true investigator and to witness investigation like that without any of the romanticizing of it or the glamorizing of it or any of that business.
1:07:33
It is basically you are seeing what you get, what it is like.
Exactly.
You know, Chillingham Castle is an amazing location and last year I was there for three days and two nights and I had nothing remotely paranormal happened to me.
1:07:51
But it didn't matter because historically that place is a wonder to stay at and I would recommend everyone to stay there.
But I also know this doesn't happen to everyone.
I could go back again in a year's time and be totally astounded by what I see in front of me.
1:08:10
It's the luck of the draw and you should really, if you wanted to do the paranormal say properly.
If that sounds arrogant, and I don't mean it, is to realise that nine times out of 10 you walk away with nothing and just occasionally, as in the George Jarvis, your jaw would drop to the floor and think, wow, this is what makes it special.
1:08:40
So were there any specific aspects of the investigative process that you were really aiming to try and highlight?
I think it's the rawness, the honesty as what you see on camera.
1:08:55
We are very, very honest about our personal feelings.
You know, the deaths of loved one like myself, my father, Rachel with her brother and her father.
And when you suffer loss, a great loss for the first time of your life, it does make you explore the paranormal and wondering if there's a way to communicate.
1:09:23
But unfortunately, we are not psychic, so we didn't have that extra bit to say.
Yeah, it is real.
So we still try to find out if we can speak to a loved one.
I mean, I don't know if I have or I haven't.
1:09:41
Over the years I've had some things happen, but my head tells me it's not real.
My heart says maybe.
Who knows?
It's an interesting perspective to have that shown, to have that documented, whereby just that discussion alone as to why someone might be interested in becoming an investigator, why they might want to pursue some of these questions.
1:10:06
Because I think there are a lot of, I think there are a lot of misunderstandings around what people do if they're investigating the paranormal and what it looks like, how it, how it operates.
And so I think the fact that you've got something that really takes that step back as a documentary, almost looking at it from that perspective of, well, how do these worlds come together?
1:10:31
Why do people want to step into this in some ways normalizes a very, very real thing that everybody's going to experience.
And and the motivation that that might lead to people just exploring the question of death and what that might mean.
1:10:48
And for some, that means questioning whether there is something beyond death.
And yeah, I think that again, there's something very real and real about that and normalising about that, allowing people to understand the field a bit more rationally in itself.
1:11:06
You know what?
What motivates people to want to do this?
Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm very honest.
When I first started out quite a few years ago, I believed in everything.
And you know, when you meet like minded people, people have been doing a long time, they will say, well, actually, have you thought that there's a rational explanation for this, for this?
1:11:29
And then you think, well, OK, let me explore the more scientific side.
I still love the spiritual side, but I call them experiences.
I don't say, oh, I've seen a ghost.
That's proof because it's not.
I still see things that have me scratching my head like a shadow figure walked past you.
1:11:50
And you think, OK, that is different, but to me it's not enough now.
And I think that's what happens when you get more sceptical.
You want something that will prove beyond a doubt, but that will never happen.
1:12:06
Unfortunately, we have to wait until we die and they'll either be, Oh my God, it's real or nothing.
So part of your role was also helping as the assistant producer.
You've spoken about, you know, what your role was as the investigator through this process in terms of connecting with locations, connecting with other investigators and going on this journey.
1:12:31
What was it from behind the lens?
What was your role as the assistant producer, would you say from stepping back from the investigation itself?
To me, I must say that I found that the most enjoyable part, sorting everything out, the location, the people, the timings, finding what sort of narrative would suit that particular location, what guy needed.
1:13:00
So all he had to do is he says just turn up and film.
And having done this on another project as well, if I was 30 years younger I probably would think I'll try and make a career of it.
1:13:15
But I I was just so chuffed that this BAFTA award-winning producer would be so kind and to credit me as assistant producer.
So who knows, there may be a Part 2.
Well, I asked, I asked Guy that as to whether he had any intentions and motivations to to do anything else and he's certainly thinking about it.
1:13:36
So who knows?
I think it would be.
I think it would be something that would would very much interest people because I do think this is something very different.
There's something very journalistic, unbiased and really investigative in the sense that you do get to see things hands on, experiences and investigation play out.
1:14:02
I think that's something that people should should be seeing.
I think something like that should be out there and if there's more of that, I think some, I think it's certainly something that people would be wanting to watch.
Exactly.
And you know, there's there's a lot of research that went on behind the scenes.
1:14:18
So history research, the location research.
So you didn't just rock up and start filming, You had preparation, You had an itinerary and that was an important part of getting it all together.
1:14:35
And then obviously Guy did a fabulous job in the edit and the edit can make or break a documentary and I think he did a fabulous job.
I think journey is the right way to explain it because you do go on a journey and as the you know, the audience goes along that journey.
1:14:55
It was really nice to be involved in such a project that wasn't the usual ghost busting type of show, and as he very honestly put in the beginning that none of us are actors.
It's what you see is raw and real, and it was.
1:15:24
Thanks for listening.
See you next time and bye for now.
