Lisa Holman on Cancer, Community, and the Paranormal

Transcript

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

1:19

Picture this, a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

1:48

We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

2:12

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

So, whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

2:33

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge because every ghost has a story and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:53

Welcome back to Haunted.

History Chronicles where we delve into the mysterious and the macabre.

Today I'm joined by a very special guest, paranormal investigator, cancer survivor, and author Lisa Holman.

In this episode, we'll be taking a fascinating journey through Lisa's incredible story, from her work in the paranormal field to the deeply personal experiences that shaped her book, My Boob Tried to Kill Me.

3:24

We'll explore how her battle with breast cancer transformed not only her life, how she found support from friends, family, and even the paranormal community during her toughest days.

Together, we'll reflect on the role of accessibility in the paranormal field, discuss what true power unity should look like, and hear Lisa's thoughts on what needs to improve to make this community more inclusive.

3:51

It's a powerful conversation about strength, resilience, and the mysteries that connect us all, both in life and beyond.

So get ready for an episode full of insight and inspiration.

You won't want to miss it.

4:13

Hi, Lisa, Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Hi, Michelle.

Thank you very much for inviting me.

Do you want to start by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

So my name is Lisa and I have been a paranormal investigator for let me think the best part of 15 years.

4:34

I am part of the Jamaican Paranormal team and I also help run events at the Old Vicarage in Bridgewater.

And obviously you've been through something really quite momentous in your life that we're going to talk about when it comes to your book.

4:52

Do you want to just maybe share a little bit about your life before that cancer diagnosis, which is a big part of the book that you wrote?

OK, so before my cancer diagnosis I had my own soft furnishings business so I would make curtains and moment blinds and play with lovely fabrics all day, which I absolutely loved and I was quite active in the paranormal community.

5:24

I was part of the Jamaican paranormal team, so I would go down with Corinne Bazant and help run events with the rest of the teams is Craig Williams, Jem Tredwin and Rachel Slater.

The five of us run events down there with members of the public and we explained some different ways of investigating different bits of kits that and equipment that we might use on the investigation.

5:53

I would.

I was also running events at the Old Vicarage in Bridgewater, which it's a fantastic venue as well, much like the Jamaica Inn.

And I was also a paranormal consultant for the coaching group.

6:10

So the coaching group brought the Jamaica Inn back in, I want to say 2022 of the summer of 2022.

So when I had a meeting with Kevin Charity about getting more of his portfolio's property portfolio to hire for the paranormal community because they're all our coaching insurance, the vast majority of them have had paranormal reports.

6:38

So we just really wanted to access that for the paranormal community and for the coaching in as well so they could make a bit of extra money when during the quiet periods, which we all know how much the hospitality trade is suffering at the moment through one thing another.

6:56

First it was COVID and then it's the cost of living crisis.

So we're really keen to try and try and kick start that as well.

So yeah, I was very busy in the paranormal community doing investigations, running investigations, consulting different venues and then with my soft furnishings business as well.

7:16

So that I was very, very busy.

And looking back now, I don't know how I fitted it all in my day, but I did.

So what kind of got you then first interested in the paranormal field?

What what made you become involved in researching and investigating it?

7:34

So I've always been interested in the paranormal from a very young age.

I grew up in an Edwardian villa, if you like, that was haunted.

And so I've always grown up and ran the paranormal and things that go bump in the night.

7:52

It's only after the passing of my sister that I got more heavily involved, started going on more investigations.

So you sort of, I started in much the same vein as I'd imagine most other investigators do.

8:09

You find a company and you buy a ticket and you go to their their events and investigate and then you go home and you're absolutely on a high because you had all these amazing things happen to you.

And then gradually you make friends with other investigators within the community and you start to get invited onto the private night.

8:31

So it's investigators only.

So it's a more more serious and there's more explanation, so you can learn a lot more.

So I started going down that route and doing the private investigating as well, which is great.

So I've made so many friends in the paranormal community and they really are such.

8:50

Amazing people.

And obviously a moment ago you were kind of talking about how full your life was before you received that diagnosis of cancer.

Take us back, if you could, to that moment of what that was like and how life began to change after that diagnosis.

9:09

So when I was diagnosed, actually it's the 29th of September 2022, so that that date is actually ingrained in my head.

That was when everything changed.

So I went to the various appointments and the whole way through I thought is they're just, this is overkill.

9:29

It's just hormonal.

I never actually thought that it would be cancer at all.

Actually when I went for my mammogram and my ultrasound, I left my husband in the cafe at the hospital.

So I said to him, no point you coming in, you sit there, you work, I'll be out in half hour at the most.

9:50

And then when they told me at the ultrasound so they can tell straight to which I didn't realise, I always assume that yes, there's something there, we'll have to do a biopsy to find out what it is.

But with the mammogram and the ultrasounds, the technology must be so great that they can tell straight away if it's cancer or not.

10:13

So they I was lying on the bed in the sand room and being told I had cancer.

I was all on my own.

So when I was diagnosed and then you have to go back for the a week later for the biopsy results, then they say this is what you've got, this is your treatment options.

10:32

And then the lovely McMillan nurse takes you into another room and gives you all the leaflets.

What shocked me the most was being told that I wouldn't be able to work.

I don't know why, but I just assumed that yeah, OK, I'm going through chemotherapy, I'm going to lose my hair and I might feel a little bit poorly for a week.

10:54

But the other two is between treatments.

Of course, I can work.

Don't be so silly.

So being told that I probably wouldn't be able to work when my work was my baby.

My kids are are grown up.

So my business playing the fabric was what I enjoyed doing every single day.

11:14

And I I remember thinking what am I going to do in my time?

What am I going to do now if I can't work?

How am I going to fill my days?

Not realising how I'll he can actually get through chemotherapy.

And again, this is where I think, you know, just to sing the praises of the Macmillan nurses a little bit because they are fantastic in, in helping someone to navigate this strange diagnosis that they're suddenly faced with.

11:41

And then navigate the changes that I think oftentimes people aren't aware are coming.

Because again, we have that mental attitude of, well, I'm just going to have to get on with XY or Z because that's my life.

And this just doesn't somehow fit into that.

11:57

It's brilliant to have the support of nurses and and practitioners like McMillan who really are that supportive organization and resource through whatever stage of a diagnosis like this really, really important.

12:17

So it's, it's fantastic to just have the opportunity to say thank you to all those people who work in in that job because they do an incredible, incredible job at what they do.

They really do.

And the chemotherapy nurses as well, they are so patient and so kind that, you know, anyone who works in oncology I think are really, really some of the best people you can meet because they're just just so kind and caring.

12:46

So I had to go and then they do the biopsies and then I had to go and grab my husband and we went back in to see the surgeon.

But you honestly think that you've automatically been given a death sentence.

And that's what I thought.

13:01

And it's only coming out the other side of treatment.

You realise that that's not necessarily true.

Vast majority of people recover and pull through.

It's only the very unfortunate ones that that don't.

13:17

But if you can, I've I believe that if you can laugh and try and remain as positive as possible so the mind is a great healer for the body, remaining positive can have the effect of helping you heal yourself.

13:36

This is where I think it's incredible that you're coming on to talk on the podcast, because I think part of what makes the news of a cancer diagnosis so difficult initially is that the language of it, it's all a bit of a minefield.

You're being presented with so much information that's quite difficult to grasp.

13:56

And of course, alongside that comes this very difficult aspect, which is navigating speaking to people and telling people about the diagnosis and the response from people and how you have that conversation.

14:11

But likewise how people respond in turn to being told themselves.

It's it's something that I think we underestimate how difficult just navigating that whole process can be alongside just grappling and trying to understand everything you've been told yourself.

14:29

Yeah it is.

It is difficult having to relay the news to people I already had in my head.

Obviously you tell your children 1st and then you tell your parents, and my sister and my ex-husband told his parents and then you have your close knit friends who you want to tell.

14:49

You don't want them to find out through the Grapevine or through, heaven forbid, a Facebook post.

So I already had a clear list in my head of who I had to tell personally.

My daughter was actually on holiday.

15:06

We just found out she was pregnant so this was possibly going to be her last holiday abroad for quite a few years because of having the baby in tow.

So I was diagnosed on the Thursday and she wasn't due back to the Sunday.

15:22

So we told our son when he got home from school he was actually doing his final year of A levels which he was doing a fantastic job and he was forecast to get a straight A for all three of them.

15:39

But in the end, by the December we're told he was going to fail them all because there was too much going on at home for him to cope with.

When my daughter returned from holiday, we had phoned her, we video called her and she was rather stressed because she's just had a shopping delivered so and we had to tell the news over video call because she wasn't going to be visiting us with her partner.

16:10

My son took it exactly the way we thought he would call us a cucumber, right?

OK, fine, can I go now?

And off he went up to his room and no doubt he researched absolutely everything to do with my cancer diagnosis to find out the the treatments, what the treatments can do, what the cure, probably the recovery rate, that sort of thing.

16:33

Knowing how Harrison works and my daughter Rachel, she had a complete breakdown which they both reacted the way I expected them to, which for me was great because there was no more hurdles to jump over.

16:50

I didn't have to placate 1 and not worry about the other one.

They did exactly what you expected them to do, which was which was actually a tonic.

Probably not for them, but for me it was a tonic.

When I told my parents, my mum didn't seem to quite want to believe it, but she had. 10 years previous she'd gone through her own breast cancer battle.

17:15

My dad said that he was going to come and see me straight away.

This was 6:00 in the evening and he lives in North Devon.

So I said absolutely not, you're not coming now, there's nothing you can do.

We just need to deal with it and move on.

17:34

But he'd just a week or so earlier, two weeks earlier, he'd been given the oak clear of prostate cancer.

So it was all very raw for all of us really.

And then I have my friends who I wanted to tell.

17:49

So there was Tash and Nava and Corinne and a school friend who I still not regular contact, but I'm still in contact with Lee.

And then there was another two couples who I wanted to tell face to face that this is what's happening.

18:10

One couple thought I'd gone to tell them that Rachel was pregnant, although she was.

I didn't say that she is because it's not my place to tell people.

It's her pregnancy, not mine.

So I didn't tell them.

Well, yes, she is, but this is what I've come about.

And each time you tell someone, it's like you are in that room being diagnosed all over again.

18:36

So yeah, it's hard.

It's hard.

And it does open up wounds.

But, you know, it's something that you've got to do.

And I, I feel quite bad because with Corinne, I said to her, I want you to tell these people in the paranormal community as a group of people, I want to tell, but I couldn't keep saying the words.

19:01

So I made her do it, which I'm not sure she's quite, very pleased about, but she did it.

And then I started up a Facebook Messenger chat page called The Bean Faced B Starred because in my mind it was the shape and size of a Broadbean.

19:25

I don't like Broadbean.

So it seemed a good idea.

That's what I called it.

So I made it perfectly clear to listen.

What's going on?

I don't want sympathy, I just want rudeness, jokes, inappropriateness, just make me laugh.

19:43

And they did.

They really did make me laugh the whole way through, which was absolutely fantastic.

And then another friend, she was actually in Rome when I told her the news.

I didn't realise she was in Rome.

She was in Rome on holiday and apparently she was in the Vatican having a bit of a little, little mini meltdown at my news.

20:02

So if I'd known she'd been, she was on holiday, I wouldn't have phoned her and told her.

But she was one of my, you know, top ten that I had to simply tell, you know, rather than them finding out third party.

And in some ways, you know, once you once that news is out there, it's, it's trying to keep things as normal as possible.

20:24

So like you said, having having a laugh, having a joke, having that little bit of normalcy and routine and fun so that life is better, life is happier.

Because like you mentioned earlier on, you know, the the mind is a great healer.

And I think you're absolutely right that if we have really good people around us who help lift our spirits and offer that support, that is not only hugely encouraging and empowering, but can have such a positive impact while someone's going through treatment and, you know, hopefully getting to the other side and getting the all clear or whatever the outcome is.

21:03

You know, having people there to lift you up when you need to makes such a difference to someone's well-being, I think.

It really does.

Yeah, I agree.

Completely agree.

And it's incredible that you have, you know, taken your experience and put all of this down into your book, which is a brilliant title, I might add, with My Boob Tried to Kill Me, I think just speaks.

21:27

I think it says everything about what you were just saying about, you know, you try to have a laugh about it, kind of be a matter of fact and a jokey about it and keep things like on that, on that level.

I mean, you have that with the title, which is great.

But you've taken something very, very personal, you know, the journey that you've been on and put this into something that is a really reflective journal response of what happened to you and and your experiences.

21:57

Why, you know, why would why did you want to do that?

What was your hope with writing the book?

So at it's initial inception, I'm very good at bottling things up.

So the initial inception of the book to stop me from bottling all of my thoughts and my feelings was a cathartic diary.

22:20

And I started it at the point of diagnosis and I would just write down everything I'm thinking and I'm feeling and it was never, ever going to be read by anyone.

It was just for me to get down on paper what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling so I don't have to think about it anymore.

22:38

So a cathartic release, that was the initial idea.

Going through treatment, I was incredibly I'll, I had sepsis three times.

I was asked to sign ADNR.

So I wasn't able to continue with my cathartic exercise due to being so poor.

22:57

I spent a lot of time in hospital fighting the infections and I had COVID once, which was great when you're already feeling absolutely rubbish from having chemotherapy.

And then here comes COVID, which until that point I'd managed to avoid.

23:13

I can only assume that I've probably picked up in hospital when I was walking back through back to the calf from one of my treatments because it happened relatively close to one of my treatments.

And then gradually some of my, I call them my everyday friends or my, my normal friends because I've got my paranormal friends and I've got my everyday friends.

23:35

Some of my everyday friends, they didn't know despite me saying to them, I want to laugh, don't treat me any differently.

Yes, I'm going through this, but I want you to see me the way you've always seen me.

I haven't changed as a person.

23:52

I still enjoy the same things.

I still have the same thoughts and feelings and rudeness and you know, mental mentalness if you want to call it that.

So don't treat me any differently.

Some of them weren't able to understand what I was saying to them and they just drifted away and they didn't contact me and eventually they just deleted me off of their Facebooks.

24:22

People that your kids have grown up with and you've been friends with for nearly two decades do that sort of thing.

It really does cut you to the quick and in some ways, being treated like that for something that's I have no control over, I certainly didn't ask to be diagnosed with cancer.

24:41

So I had no control over this.

For them to do that, in some ways it hurt more than the actual diagnosis of cancer because everyone has their ride or die friends, their friends that they know regardless of what they're going through, they will be there and they will support them and they'll have their back and they'll Jimmy them along.

25:01

But they weren't there and I realised, so I went.

Also, once I was finished my treatment and I'd had the surgery and I'd gone through radiotherapy, I picked up.

Not the paper and pen obviously, because it's all written on computers nowadays.

25:18

But I picked up my laptop and I carried on writing and I decided that this is what I was going to.

I was going to get the word out there that just because someone's had a diagnosis, you should still treat them exactly the same as you've always treated them because they haven't changed as a person.

25:38

They're just going to go through a bit of rubbish to get back to looking and feeling the way they used to, if that is at all possible.

And then I set up a support group for my area for cancer patients, survivors, friends, their friends, their family, their loved ones, because in my immediate area, the town I live in, there wasn't anything.

26:04

So I set up that as well.

And then speaking to other survivors and people are going through it, I realised that what I experienced with some of my friends isn't uncommon.

It it is, it is quite common for people who don't know how to react, don't react and then disappear.

26:24

So I decided, well, this needs to change.

And that's another thing that spurred me on to get the book finished because I picked it up.

And I just say it's too difficult trying to relive things because my mind did cut a lot of it out as a way of preserving me, preserving itself.

26:45

So I had to not interview, but talk to people when I was getting a flashback.

I'd say, well, I've just had this flashback.

What is this about?

Is that real or is my mind making things up and I'll be told no, that's real?

So I realised that I by using my experience it could actually do some good.

27:06

And even if putting my heart and soul onto the pages, it helps just one person not be alienated by those they think will be there for them, then it's done its job.

27:22

That's all I wanted to do, just just to help people.

So, Lisa, why did you choose then to call the book My Boob Try to Kill Me?

Well, for one, it did.

And secondly, the word cancer has so many negative implications.

27:43

As I did.

I thought I was going to die.

You know, someone says you've got cancer.

You also think, well, that's it, My, my, my card's been stamped.

Time's up, get your ticket.

Off you go.

So I wanted it to be tongue in cheek.

I wanted people to realise that humour is such a great tonic.

28:03

It's the best medicine that you can receive.

And I didn't want my book to be cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer.

Yes, it's about cancer, but it's, it's to me, it's more about friendship and humour and silliness.

28:19

So that's, that's why I called it my Boo tried to kill me because it's a little bit tongue in cheek and it's just so people are aware that you can still laugh even if you've got cancer.

So that's why I called it.

28:34

My bill tried to kill me.

I mean, it's quite a strong visual.

It makes me think of that.

Gosh, that advert, that was decades ago now where you had the the person running through the street with the belly running after him and that belly.

28:49

'S going to get you.

Belly's going to get you.

And it makes me think of a boob doing the same, which I know is it's quite a visual, but it's it's funny.

Like you said, it's tongue in cheek.

And if it, if it takes away some of that kind of the trappings of, of the stuff that wraps around that word cancer, that again, just stops people from talking about it, then it's done the job, you know, and sometimes it's, we need a title like that that just makes it OK for you to just say the cancer word and to talk about it.

29:21

And that's what it does, even if it makes you think of my belly's going to get you.

Yes, yes, but my boobs going to get you.

It's all good.

It is the book I wish I'd had when I was 16 when, you know, I was saying to you before the podcast that, you know, my mum was diagnosed when I was 16 and I was in the kind of in the middle of my GCS ES at the time.

29:45

And it was so hard because my personality type is I try and keep everyone going and to do everything I can to make life better for the people around me.

So my response to this was if I can do really well and be the perfect daughter who does really well at school and is no problem whatsoever.

30:06

If I can hold the sky up on my, you know, in my hands and on my shoulders by myself, yeah, any problem, that mum will be fine.

And so I became this ultra obsessive person about being perfect and, you know, it, it kind of spilled out into school where, you know, I became so anxious about the exams that were coming up and doing my absolute best because I thought all of this would make her better.

30:35

I wouldn't speak to anybody.

I, I could barely speak to my friends about it.

I certainly couldn't speak to my mum about it because I didn't want to put that worry on to her.

And I realized I was anxious and, and it kind of came to a head 111 moment in a history lesson where, and again, not to sound too nerdy for anybody listening, but you know, I, I didn't get in trouble at school.

31:00

I, I never had an attention.

My homework was always handed in.

I've always loved school, hence why I went into teaching myself.

But it came to a head in one history lesson where the history teacher that I had at the time, I'd had for multiple years at school.

31:17

And for that reason, I think I probably felt more comfortable letting some of that out momentarily.

And he just happened to ask something of me in front of everybody and I was sarcastic.

And that's so not my personality type to be like that with anyone, let alone in a school environment.

31:38

And he was quite shocked.

And he, he responded as as I would have expected him to, which was to ask if I was OK.

But asking if I was OK was such a hard question to hear at that time because I just couldn't mentally cope with being asked if I was all right, because I wasn't.

31:59

But I didn't want anyone to see it.

And he could see it on my face.

He knew something was wrong and he tried to speak to me quietly at the back of the room with nobody else listening.

And again, I just couldn't.

I broke into tears.

And it was that moment then that was the catalyst of me being able to speak to it.

32:17

You know, to be able to speak to him and my head of year, because they obviously spoke, realized that something was going on.

And of course, I was then brought in and spoken to and, and finally I had someone who could hear and could listen to me and could under understand that pressure that I entirely put on myself because I had no one to speak to.

32:40

And you know, as you were mentioning, you know, it's surprising how many, how many people find it difficult to cope with what you're experiencing.

I went through that kind of that process of, you know, stop friends stopping inviting me to things because my natural inclination at the time was to say that I couldn't go, my mum was unwell and I needed to be around to help look after her.

33:02

So they would stop asking.

And of course then you become more isolated because again, you're in this situation where they stop asking, they stop asking if you're OK and you stop communicating.

And so again, it's just as I said just a moment ago, it's the book I wish I'd had to know it was OK to talk about things and to to know that expressing my feelings were OK at the time and would have been OK at the time.

33:32

And that I didn't have to bottle it up any more than I would expect anyone either first hand or second hand, you know, second hand to do so either know if you have something to say, say it.

Not saying it is worse.

I think especially for my son, he was, let me think 17 when I was diagnosed, 1718 when I was diagnosed and we said, do you want us to tell the school?

34:03

He said no, no, they don't need to know.

And I think from his perspective, and possibly for when your mum was diagnosed at, you know, really, and you look back when you're that age, you think you're an adult, but as you get to an adult, you guys think you just, you're just a kid still.

34:22

I think in some ways you're just trying to maintain some form of normalcy because everything at home is going, you know, it's all going to change.

So going to school, you want some, you want school to be the way it has always been.

34:38

So you're not facing so much and dealing with so much changing such a short space of time because it is, it's like flicking off a light switch.

It's everything's light and it's all fine and all of a sudden you're in the dark and you've got to fight your way out.

34:55

So I'm hoping that the book will help everyone and it's, it hasn't been written necessary for the cancer patient.

They're more than welcome to read it if they want to.

I know when I was going through treatment, anything with the word cancer or I just avoided, absolutely avoided.

35:20

The Thor film came out.

I can't, what it's called now, Love, love or something where the leading lady is battling cancer.

I refuse to watch it.

I still haven't watched it and I and I love the Marvel films, but I I can't watch it.

35:40

I absolutely cannot watch it.

So I avoided anything to do with cancer.

When I was admitted to hospital, they said they were going to put me on the ward with cancer patients.

And straight away in my head it was, I don't want to be surrounded by cancer patients.

35:57

I don't want to see all those people dying because even then I thought I'd been given a death sentence.

So it is very difficult and it does affect so many people and I do think it needs to be spoken about more.

36:14

So yeah, that's, that's that's what my next.

Not really a campaign, is it?

But that is that's my goal.

That's my dream.

But I think it's a book, as you said, it's not necessarily intended just for the cancer patient.

This is a book that I think, you know, for, for someone who maybe knows of someone, it's, it's the perfect read to try and understand what's going going on in the mind of someone who is getting any kind of a diagnosis or going through anything difficult in their life, to be honest.

36:45

Because I think again, as human beings, we can be really, really bad at communicating in times of crisis and in times of need.

And I think this is a book that just reflects on the need to not fall into that pattern of not communicating and to instead in, you know, try and embrace that continued dialogue that you need to have, not only with yourself.

37:11

But those around you?

Again, just to help as part of that process.

So I kind of see it as a book that really is something that could be a such benefit to anybody who finds themselves in that, in that place of needing or wanting to maybe support someone else or support themselves or or going through anything of, you know, any moment in their life that's a little bit challenging.

37:42

Here's some here's something that could really aid you in seeing how you can navigate, you know, something difficult in your life or through someone else's life.

Yeah, yeah, I certainly hope it does.

It does that.

I just think it's so important for people to communicate well.

38:00

We live in such an insular world nowadays.

People don't communicate with each other.

And I remember growing up, my parents said to me, if anyone ever asks you, how are you, even if you're not OK, you say you're OK because they don't really care.

38:18

They're just being civil.

Growing up as a teenager, I wouldn't even look at someone when I was talking to them because I was so worried that they'd see the, you know, see my insecurities, as it were.

And I was aware growing up that I was different from the other children.

38:38

I don't know why I was different, but they, I suppose my parents were quite strict and I didn't want them to give them any reason to pick on me any more than what they already were.

So it does it's, I think we just need to talk more.

38:53

And I know there's the whole slag line going around.

Be kind.

But we need to be kind not just to others, but we need to be kind to ourselves as well.

And if you're having a day where you just don't feel like doing much, then don't.

39:10

Is it such a big deal if you if you have a day where you just want to sit in your comfy pajamas with a good book or watch a film?

Why is that so wrong?

But I think it comes back to it, It comes back to several things.

39:28

I think we can punish ourselves too easily.

I think there's we put such pressure and expectations on ourselves too, to keep everything going and that we're not allowed those moments of respite in our ordinary everyday lives.

We just somehow don't find the site time for ourselves, I think as human beings, but likewise, you know that term be kind.

39:51

It's it's so easy to understand, but at the same time, is it really easy to understand?

What does that mean?

How do we how are we kind to ourselves?

How can we truly be kind to other people?

What does that look like?

And it's that question of what does it look like that I think can be a bit of an enigma for others who haven't had to go through something like this before.

40:14

Because it becomes that what do I say that's the right thing?

What is the right behaviour?

How do I approach this person without upsetting them or offending them?

And I think again, we then tie ourselves in knots and that's where you get the distance.

40:30

And unfortunately, it's, it's not always, it's not always from that place of being callous.

It's that worry that they aren't going to be kind.

And again, this is such an important aspect of that communication part that what does it, what, how can we communicate with each other?

40:49

What is it that we need to kind of like, what conversation do we need to have with ourselves to, to realize it's OK, we can talk about this, that this isn't A to, to, to be subject for which we have to fear being able to speak with our friend about or our parent about or whoever.

41:11

And I, and I think it's that mental hurdle that's quite challenging.

And again, this is where I think your book is really quite profound because you actually raise this as such a big part of the book.

You know, this emotional distance that you've already discussed and you've brought up that that can be such a challenging part of someone receiving a diagnosis of this kind, how it then impacts and effects others around you and how they communicate.

41:37

Yeah.

And I, and I think, you know, thinking about that very big difficulty that can arise from from that.

What would you kind of say to maybe someone who's listening, who have friends or family that's going through something similar to this?

41:54

What advice would you give to someone who maybe is grappling this very same question of well, how do I navigate speaking and helping someone through something like this?

I think.

Because everybody is different.

42:10

So primarily it's reaching out and not saying how are you feeling.

Because I'm honest.

It's same poo different day.

If I'm absolutely honest.

That's how it was for me the whole way through.

So not necessarily saying how are you feeling, just say how are things going today?

42:30

Do you need anything?

I can swing past supermarket, I can I can pop in, come and see you.

Are you up for visitors?

I'd love to pop in.

And when you see your loved 1, you may realise that the chemotherapy has completely ravaged them and they may not look how you expect them to or what you are used to.

42:59

So my advice is before you get out of the car, shout at yourself, swear at yourself, have a cry if you need to, to make yourself strong enough that you don't do it in front of your loved one.

Because if you do, that is one of the worst things that you can do.

43:18

In my mind, in my opinion, it would have been for me.

I wanted to be surrounded by positivity and anyone who had have been sat there crying at me would have made made me feel worse about myself and guilty in a way for putting them through that and making them feel that way.

43:41

Because although we have no control over the diagnosis, I was very much aware that the way my body reacted to the chemotherapy, it was a great strain and burden to everybody around me.

And I, I felt awful for putting them through that.

44:01

I felt guilty that they shouldn't have to be dealing with this.

So my advice is don't ignore them.

Send them, send them.

I don't know if you've seen something funny and or you've seen something in the shop and the first thing you thought is them take a photo and sentence.

44:22

I saw this and I thought of you.

That sort of thing.

Just treat them the way you always have.

If you have a relationship where you insult each other, carry on insulting each other.

I Corinne love her to bits.

As I was going through the different stages of losing my hair and then my hair growing back.

44:43

I've had loads of nicknames.

I think at the moment I'm Brenda because of the the level it's at now.

But she would come and get me and after I'd finished all my treatment, when I returned back into the paranormal community, she would come pick me up and we had to go to Tesco's to get some snacks.

45:02

I would be in my wheelchair, clearly a cancer patient because I had no eyebrows still, and we'd start doing Andy and loose sketches from Little Britain.

We were walkers for laughter, absolutely wetting ourselves.

But the look on the general public's face, they were absolutely horrified that she was speaking to me like that.

45:23

Regards of the fact that I am literally laughing my socks off.

No one else could deal with it.

And I think that is the, the, the difficulty again, it's, it's the other people, how they deal with it.

45:38

It's checking their, you know, in some ways it's checking your own reaction to it.

Like you said, say what you need to say inside, scream it, shout it, but you need to be what that person needs at that at that moment in time.

It's not necessarily about what you think they need.

What is it that person needs?

45:56

And I think that's the question to approach it from, you know, what is it that they need?

It doesn't matter what I think.

What is it that they need?

How can I help them?

What's going to be that little bit of assistance?

And like you said, it could just be something simple, like you notice something, you take a picture of it and you send it.

46:14

It just shows that you are in their thought.

You know that they're in your thoughts.

Yes, it's dumping the small talk of which someone's going to be asked a million times if they're OK and there's a time and place for that.

But you know, it's having that, it's having that conversation that goes beyond that.

46:34

What is it that you can do?

What is it that they need?

And and that's again, I think about what you said.

Just checking, checking yourself, checking your own response to it, and just mentally shaking yourself to be prepared to be what that person needs for that time in their life because it has it.

46:54

It can be so profound the support that if you get it right and you have that group of people around you, that it can make on someone through this.

Yeah, I had a friend who a day, two days before each chemotherapy session, she would pop round with a chemo care package and there'd be a card with a positive affirmation, a sentiment and a gift.

47:23

One time she bought me pyjamas because she could see that my pyjamas were I'd lost weight, were hanging off of me and I had a bald head, so my head was always curled.

I wouldn't recommend being diagnosed with cancer in the winter because it you're, you're so cold because you have no hair anywhere.

47:41

So there's no insulation at all.

And you lose weight from not being able to eat or drink because you just feel.

So I'll.

So she bought me a pair of pajamas with a hood like a hoodie, which was really sweet.

And there were there were always cards and every card was signed off.

47:57

You've got this and we've got you.

And she says she didn't do enough, but in my mind she did too much because nothing was expected.

I never expected anyone to do anything except just call me every now and then.

48:17

So, yeah, the support that you give your friend can mean life or death because if you are going through treatment and you are facing it all alone and you feel that you have no one that you can talk to and there there is no one there supporting you, I think you'd just give up.

48:40

I, I thank my friends because I honestly think if they hadn't have been there, my friends and my family, the support network that I had, I don't think I'd still be here.

I really don't.

And I think again, this is where you know, your book is so good because it helps to bring some a lot someone along through that experience of really truly understanding the impact physically, emotionally on someone's well-being from the very beginning of receiving news like this all the way through that journey.

49:14

And again, you know, coming back to what we've spoken of, people can people can think that they that they are helping, that they're being a good friend by maybe allowing that person time to themselves to rest because they need rest and they need that peace and quiet.

49:32

And they don't want to be pestered and to be asked these things.

But I don't think people realize that actually, you know, someone who has a diagnosis doesn't suddenly lose their faculties.

You know, someone is quite capable of saying, I'm a bit tired and I need some time to myself today.

49:50

But I think sometimes we we forget that that person is a person.

And certainly that, you know, that's my experience again, with having had this something, you know, it's been something in my family since I was 16.

You know, people really forget that this person is still a person.

50:08

Let's talk to them like a person and see what they need, you know, involve them in that.

And and like you said, it can be the most empowering, special thing when you receive that love and care and real compassion and community coming around you through this to lift you out of some pretty desperate terrible times where you can think the most awful things, whether that's a spouse, a daughter, a son, someone personally experiencing this, that friend reaching out, that person reaching out can take you out of some terrible thoughts.

50:46

But just imagine if those people weren't there, you know, that's the the really bleak situation that some people can find themselves in simply because we do not know how to communicate well when it comes to our own well-being and people we care about.

And so again, it's such a profound book to make someone reflect on how we communicate around difficult topics like a cancer diagnosis or something else.

51:14

It just makes us, I think it makes anybody picking up your book just infinitely more reflective and self aware in quite an eye opening way.

And yeah, it's, it's amazing what you've done to be able to chronicle that journey the way that you have.

51:30

It's it's an amazing book.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate us as that's really nice to hear because although you know, I've written the book and I read it back a few times when I was editing it to check it, it, it was in date order and I hadn't missed anything or anything could be misconstrued from what I was writing.

51:52

I had let me think.

So my step mum Sue read it through for me and Rachel, my paranormal friend Rachel and another paranormal friend Laurie Ann and another paranormal friend Sarah.

52:08

They read it for me because I, I was at the point I couldn't read it anymore because each time I read it I was reliving it and I just couldn't mentally.

I wasn't prepared to relive it over and over and over again.

52:26

So once I thought it was at a standard where I was ready to release it.

I just got a few people who I, I know aren't you the authors or they do a lot of reading.

My step mum used to be a publisher so she knows how things work, so just as to make sure that all the information was in there, especially with my friends and my family, they were with me through it all.

52:51

I didn't meet Lorianne until after I'd finished all my treatments, so she doesn't know the person I was before.

And in some sense I've changed so much, but in other sense I've stayed the same person because I still think and feel the same.

53:09

But I don't hold my tongue as well because I just think, why can I not say what I'm thinking and feeling?

And it it comes back the whole we need to talk more.

We need, we need to communicate.

More and I and I think that's something that's so applicable to every aspect of our lives as human beings.

53:31

We just need to communicate more.

We don't and it's to our detriment.

And again, this is where I think the book is really empowering of just making you reflect to realise how powerful communication can be for ourselves and for someone else to know it's OK to talk and to share and communicate and to have that sense of connection because it's that sense of connection that makes us human beings.

53:57

So let's not, let's not cut ourselves off from the wider world.

Let's not cut ourselves off from our friend when they need it simply because we're a little bit uncomfortable and it doesn't quite fit into our lives.

It's, it's kind of breaking that stigma, I think, and breaking that barrier that I think exists around difficult topics that we somehow we have this attitude of, well, we've just got to have that stiff, you know, upper lip and get on with it.

54:27

It's OK to say we're not OK.

Yeah.

And I think that's regards of what you're going through some, you know, at some point in I think in everybody's life, you're going to have a moment where you're not OK, but what do you do?

54:43

Because people, you know, you, you worry that if you say, look, you know, I'm not OK, I really need to talk.

People would be, oh God, moaning again.

And people are so disinterested.

55:00

And it comes back to the whole insular existence.

We focus on ourselves.

And I think as a society, we have become very selfish.

You look out for #1 if anyone else fits in, and that's fine.

If it doesn't, Oh well, never mind.

And I think, I think society just needs to cut the bum it it really does support, support people.

55:23

We're all, we're all here.

We're, we're all, you know, living people.

And we all need help sometimes.

And if there's nowhere to go for that helping, there's no one to talk to.

Oh, is that person still going to be there tomorrow?

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55:57

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59:42

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Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

And one of the things that I think is really great about the book, alongside all of the, you know, the things that we've talked about and mentioned so far, is that it also shares these reflections from other people and, and again, provides this, you know, useful tool of glossaries and, and terminology.

1:00:19

The wording that I think just helps navigate this minefield because it is a bit of a minefield.

It's just a very comprehensive, reflective book that I think is so unique for that and and should really be applauded for what it is that you've put together and brought together for someone who who, as we said, will find it really, really useful.

1:00:41

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I wanted it to be.

I think as well as my journey, I'm aware that the people who are around me and supported me, it was their journey as well and we all look at things differently.

So I didn't want it to just be this is what happened to me, it was rubbish, this was wrong, that was wrong.

1:00:59

Which there are some dark points in the book, I won't lie, but I've tried to inject as much humour as possible.

There are lots of little funny anecdotes.

What my friends did to me and my family did to me.

I asked my friends and my family if they wanted to contribute to the book and write a little bit about how they dealt with it from the diagnosis to the treatment to see me afterwards to and if they'd been affected by cancer previously by someone else.

1:01:30

And they've also put the back the medical glossary for each treatment they endured and what the possible side effects are.

What you can and cannot do.

So kind of it is just to open people's eyes to what to expect.

1:01:47

You may not have hardly any of the symptoms that say you're going to get.

I know one lady, she worked the entire time through going through chemotherapy.

The only time you knew that she was poor, that she was going through chemotherapy because she lost her hair and her eyebrows, but she was fine going through it.

1:02:06

It didn't affect her so greatly.

But I think forewarned is forearmed.

So if you are aware that your friend may be going through this, you know what to look out for and how to support them.

Absolutely.

And again, This is why I think it's such a comprehensive, well done book because it is, it really does cover all the things that I think someone would, would find useful.

1:02:29

And for that reason, it is that book that I that I can see so many people either wishing they'd had or looking and searching for.

And it's knowing that there's something out there like that because I haven't seen anything like this before.

And as I've said numerous times, you know, it's the book I wish I'd had.

1:02:47

It's such an important book at bringing together all of these elements, which can be really, really helpful.

And so, yeah, it's, it's just so well done.

It's really, really well thought through as a as a book, as a guide, as a journalist.

It covers all of those kind of various different things in terms of that journey and that that experience that you went on.

1:03:08

Thank you so much I really appreciate it.

Also done a low content book called Forget Me Not so when I was going through treatment, one of the things I wish I had was a diary that I could fill out with my thoughts, my feelings, things to keep me positive, things to be grateful for.

1:03:28

Kind of a mindful journal but also to keep track of my symptoms.

Because for the first week after your treatment you feel like you are dying.

But then by the time you go 2 weeks later to see your consultant, you've forgotten how severe the symptoms were at the beginning.

1:03:51

So when they say how are things, you're like yes, fine.

Because in that instance it is.

So I wish I had something where I could have keep kept track of things, which is why I created the Forget Me Not journal.

And that is for the cancer patient to fill out.

1:04:09

So it's an 18 month journal and each month has a month to view for your appointments and then a week to view with little positive affirmations for each month.

There's mood squares in there.

There's important phone numbers, not necessarily for the medical professional, professional phone numbers.

1:04:28

It could be your favorite take away, Curry house, hairdresser, beautician, your Barber, a friend you haven't spoken to for a while that you want to contact, that sort of thing.

So it's just your journey, your well, your journey.

1:04:43

Journal through your treatment.

But it doesn't necessarily have to be for someone going through cancer treatment, could be anyone that has a long term health condition.

It could be helpful for them to fill it out so they can see.

Last week this is how I felt, but now I feel like this.

1:05:00

So I can see that I am improving.

Things are getting better for me.

And I would just add that I don't think it's a journal that is just for someone with a long term, I would say chronic condition because I actually use it to track my migraines, try and see if there's things that really have an impact on my migraines, which I've had since I was, gosh, 9 or 10.

1:05:22

And I know some things that are huge triggers, but, you know, having, having a place and I love journaling.

So it kind of like, it's wonderful for me because I love that kind of place where I can put all the things together and track things really well and have that record.

1:05:38

You know, the journal just provided me that opportunity to do that specifically for migraines.

And yeah, there's some things that I may not think are relevant for filling in for that particular, you know, what I'm tracking it for.

But it's such a good resource and a tool that I think you can play with it in terms of what best suits you in terms of what you want to use it for, if that makes sense.

1:06:00

So really, really handy little resource there that I think it's great that it does that 18 months because it really does allow you to see something for a longer period of time, which is fantastic.

Really, really, really clever little thing to bring out and to share for people to be able to access and use because like I said, I found it useful for migraine tracking.

1:06:22

Yeah, Yeah.

I hadn't thought of it that thought of it for that sort of thing, but or anyone mental health conditions, anyone, I think it for chronic illness or just to keep track of, you know, friends or something, if a friend's going through something, if you've spoken to them recently as well.

1:06:40

So yeah, I'm glad you found it helpful.

That's really good news.

Yeah.

And of course I will make sure to include the links to those as well.

So all these kind of books that we've mentioned about and and discussed we'll make, I'll make sure that those links are easily accessible.

So again, if someone is listening to this and thinking, well actually that that journal would be really great for, you know, my aunt or whoever that, you know, they might find that useful whilst they're dealing with whatever they're going through.

1:07:10

You know, a sudden diagnosis of here's a way to kind of help track to be able to communicate and have these conversations with their GP, You know, something that they can take along, which can be really useful as a tool to be able to advocate for yourself with a medical professional.

1:07:27

Here's what I'm feeling.

Here's the kind of things that I've noticed, you know, arming yourself a little bit, I think sometimes that you need.

It's a brilliant tool to empower someone to have those types of conversations and to just be more aware of what they're going through and tracking it in a way that can then helpful, you know, be helpful to navigate, you know, long term.

1:07:51

So yeah, I will.

I will make sure to include all of those links and hopefully someone will find it useful and know you know know that there are resources like that available for them.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

And again, this is where I think it's it's so wonderful, not only with the book, but you know, your response to everything that you've gone through since jumping back into the paranormal world.

1:08:19

You know, your awareness when it comes to issues around inclusivity and how to make things more accessible for others who maybe have some kind of difficulty, which would mean access is quite, you know, could be quite problematic.

And I suppose just to kind of before we get to that conversation, which I think is an important one to have and one that I think you can really offer some of your expertise and first hand experiences of.

1:08:44

Do you want to just kind of maybe briefly explain for, you know, for the people listening, you know, that process view of navigating that kind of move back into the paranormal life and just life in general with some of the, you know, the ongoing issues that you've had with, say, your mobility and things as a result of having had that cancer diagnosis?

1:09:09

Before I was diagnosed I was actually training to run the Bath Half Marathon so I wouldn't say I was super fit but I was certainly getting there.

And then diagnosis happened and the chemotherapy which was horrific with the and then the various encounters of sepsis which has all impacted me physically, mentally as well but mainly physically.

1:09:39

At the moment I am currently classed as disabled.

I need help with everyday tasks.

I cannot walk unaided, so coming back to the paranormal I probably wasn't ready for.

1:10:00

But Corinne would not take no for an answer, and I'm glad she didn't because I honestly don't believe I would be back yet if she hadn't have been.

Come on, this is what we're doing.

It's not all about you.

1:10:16

Come on, this is what we're doing.

We're doing this.

I'll come and pick you up and then having to rely on people to get me dressed, get me up the stairs, get me down the stairs.

Going from being so independent, fiercely independent, I would say to not really be able to do that much for myself has been incredibly difficult mentally, incredibly, incredibly difficult.

1:10:42

But I soldier on and when I go to different venues I advise them on how they could make it easier for someone who has got a disability, how to navigate their venue to make it as inclusive as possible for them.

1:11:04

In some venues, disabled toilets aren't going to happen because they're listed buildings and there's nowhere to put 1.

So we just have to muddle along as best we can.

So yeah, I'm hoping that through my experience it will help more venues understand what what can be done to make it more accessible.

1:11:26

And for investigators who have mobility problems, I'm hoping that they can see how I'm just getting on with things and they'll realise actually things have changed.

But I enjoy doing this and I can still do it.

I may not be able to do as much as I did before.

1:11:44

For instance, if I'm at the Jamaica Inn, I I can't investigate the bedrooms because going up and down the stairs for the bedrooms, I think I'll do 11 route and then I'll that would kill me completely.

So I stay downstairs.

So although I'm aware I have limitations now, I continue to push them because in my mind I don't know if I can do that unless I try.

1:12:10

If I fail, OK, I can't do it yet, but next month, next, you know, in couple of minutes time I'll try again.

Can I do it now?

Yeah, I was just going to say it's that positivity, isn't it, of, of not allowing that moment to defeat you to keep going.

1:12:25

And, and again, I think that's a really important mindset to have that again, if you have friends and and family and people around you that have that same mindset who are encouraging in that manner, again, really uplifting, really empowering.

And, and again, you mentioned, Corinne, that there's someone living proof of that, who, who had that attitude and that that mentality for you at that moment of come on, let's, let's go, let's go and do this.

1:12:51

We're going to be doing this at the end.

And, and made you see, made you feel as though you were wanted and you could do it and you were needed.

Which again, is really, really impactful on someone who maybe isn't feeling as as hopeful or as, as willing or as able or think that they can or whatever it is that's in their mindset that stops them from doing it.

1:13:16

When you have people telling you, you can do it, I'm here, we can do this together.

We've got this to look forward to and this to look forward to.

Makes such a difference, huge difference.

Yeah, it certainly does.

Yeah, it really, really does.

So Lisa, in your opinion then what kinds of things do you think maybe venues or teams could do then to be more inclusive for people maybe with disabilities or who are going through something like you've been through?

1:13:43

What could they do that would make a difference?

Do you think personally for?

Me if I'm struggling with something instead of just I know coming in and waking me up by my the back of my jeans to get me up the stairs.

Just say do you need any assistance?

1:14:01

And if they say yes, what assistance do you need?

Just help them get around.

It may be a case they just need to sit for 5 minutes and they can't get to the chair, so you just bring the chair to them.

In other instances it may be aiding them to get up the stairs.

1:14:18

I know especially with me when I am tired my legs are no longer legs, I cannot feel them and I cannot move them.

So I have a lot of help to get up and down the stairs by someone just moving my feet and making sure that they're flat because I can't feel if they're flat either.

1:14:38

When I'm incredibly tired, it makes my condition even worse.

So it's not rushing in, right?

Let's do this for you because I certainly wouldn't like that.

I like to see if I can do it myself 1st and then offer assistance.

And it may, it may be just such a small amount of assistance someone needs just to be able to get around or in other aspects, it may be they need a lot of assistance.

1:15:02

And then you'd need to weigh up your health and safety, whether you are able to offer them the level of assistance that they need.

Because we also live in a culture where if you injure me, I'm going to sue you, which is unfortunate, which is what I think puts some people off helping others and other people off asking for help.

1:15:25

But I think it comes back to exactly what we've been talking about.

It's about having the conversation about what could be made accessible, you know, small changes, what is it that you need?

And sometimes it could be something really simple, like having chairs nearby so that someone can sit down at regular intervals if they need to.

1:15:44

But we're not going to know that unless we ask that question or recognize that that's something that could be very easily implemented at no real cost, at no real extravagance, no real effort.

1:16:01

But again, it's it's kind of navigating that to be topic of it's OK to ask people what is it that we can do to, to better the experience for you individually.

And often, you know, thinking back to experiences that I've been on as, as you know, someone who has been on various different paranormal investigations with teams and things and you know, companies, etcetera, very often you don't ever see this question ever coming up.

1:16:28

You know, it's, it's never really put across two people.

Instead, you know, the onus really is on the person going and attending oftentimes to decide if they can do it or not, but they're not in full facts of what that location is like, what is going to be made available or what could be made available.

1:16:50

So again, it kind of stops any chance of a discussion before anything has ever even come come up, which is a shame because I think it's this barrier to this conversation that needs to come down.

1:17:05

Because then I think, you know, we've got we've got something that is immediately then more open to everybody from the get go.

And, you know, it's that discussion that's important.

Yeah, I think what I what I would like to see happen is every venue who hires for paranormal, but then it could also go into other walks of life as well, not just the paranormal community.

1:17:31

Have a scaling system from 1:00 to 10:00 and each each number.

So for instance, 1 is it's all level ground.

There's plenty feet to do on the ground floor or two.

There will be some steps you may need to get up and down.

1:17:48

The doorways aren't very wide for some listed buildings.

The doorways can be incredibly narrow.

And if you're in a wheelchair, a mobility scooter or which I had to use for a while was what I call a wheelie Walker, which is a roll later.

1:18:03

So it is a Zimmer frame on wheels with a with a brake that you can use with your hands.

They aren't necessarily going to fit through some doorways, which could make it problematic for some people to get to certain parts of the venue.

1:18:20

So I think if we had a scaling system, you would know what as a disabled person, what your limitations are and what number you can go up to.

So I know, so you can get to a number 8.

So if they're scoring 9 or 10, you know that it's probably not a good idea to go to that venue because you're really going to struggle.

1:18:40

If you then choose to go, then that is that is your prerogative because no one should be told you can't do that.

So if someone says to me you can't do that, I'm very much yes, I can, you stand, stand back and watch me.

I know I'm going to struggle.

But if someone says you can't do that, it makes me even more determined that I'm going to do that.

1:19:00

And that is where people can injure themselves just from their sheer pig headedness.

But with the scaling system, anyone who's going to any venue will know if it's accessible for them and whether some parts may not be accessible, but there'll still be enough for them to do on the ground floor.

1:19:21

Does that make sense?

It does and I think it's such a simple but really effective tool that would make things just be more transparent and and again, just enables better communication and better understanding on both sides as to expectations and limitations.

1:19:40

And to, to go into it, I think with more information and to be informed about if this is a venue that you want to go to or not.

But it's, it's these like it's, it's something simple like that, that would not take too much effort to, to bring in.

1:19:56

But it's, it's getting it done.

It's, it's starting something like that.

And I think this is where, again, it's just having conversations like this that make you stop and pause and think as to, well, how do we, how do we support certain groups of people coming in?

1:20:15

How you know, how is it that we communicate things about these venues that maybe we really should that would benefit to be honest, so many more people than I think people realize and and again, hopefully that's beneficial then to these these venues, these teams, because I think when you're transparent, it gives people who are looking at you and and may be interested in what you're offering.

1:20:38

I think it gives them more confidence in you as well, which again can only serve to to better these venues and these teams.

Yeah, see a lot, another word that's banded around a lot is inclusivity.

But no one's actually said how they're inclusive.

1:20:57

Yes, we yes, we're inclusive because we're going to let you come.

OK, great.

So I can come, but is there anything that I would be able to do while I'm there?

We just, is it the case of buying my ticket and I'm going to sit here on my own while you go off and investigate.

So it, it needs to, it needs to be clearer for what is what the, the accessibility for each venue is.

1:21:19

And also with the teams as well.

If they've got someone who is, is a mean, they should have a first aid anyway by law if they're selling tickets for parallel investigations.

But if they've got someone who is a carer, who's been taught how to lift someone safely, how to support someone safely, they could have that.

1:21:42

And that would be another green tick in the box for someone who really wants to investigate but feels that because of their disability, they're unable to.

And, and, and again, I think it's, it's small steps sometimes, as we've just been saying, that can make such a big difference.

1:22:00

And you're right, inclusivity is a word that is so overused, but actually very little done to truly understand what it means.

And I think that happens from the very get go when we think about, you know, someone booking in and, and maybe speaking to someone about attending an event or going to a venue for an investigation.

1:22:25

And it continues all the way through.

Because again, I just think there's this total lack of awareness sometimes as to how we can include all the people who come and, and attend what is being offered within the paranormal, within the paranormal field.

I think you're right there.

1:22:41

Sometimes this huge fear of, well, if things go wrong, then that's our insurance.

You know, that's us at at risk here.

But.

Actually, it doesn't need to be like that.

You know, we're really missing out on something that could be really wonderful in terms of bringing people together who really do love the paranormal and investigating the paranormal just by simply opening up what it is that we're doing by talking about it again.

1:23:08

And, and it's, it's things like the website use of access on the, you know, how easy it is to access the website, you know, lighting.

It's, it's some of the choices that we make and how we present our information.

1:23:25

And then just sometimes really simply thinking about the needs of someone who's coming along and attending a venue, like you said, about where where things could be held within that site.

Does, you know, having the opportunity to work on certain in certain parts of the building, even if it is only the ground floor.

1:23:45

You know, it's, it's having this plan ahead of time, which as as a team, as an event, as a venue, you're only going to know that if you start asking questions of the people who are attending.

And let's be really clear, this is something that also benefits everybody because not everybody is going to want to traipse all over a building for several hours in the in the in the night time.

1:24:10

They may want something that's a bit more sedentary or a bit more relaxed as opposed to feeling like a marathon going up and down the stairs like you mentioned.

Yeah, it's, it's something that could make the experience really more pleasurable for everybody, certainly more inclusive that buzzword that we were just talking.

1:24:30

About yeah, I think that and The thing is if you did it, the grading system like I mentioned, it's it's not going to take much to get that sorted.

It'd just be, you know, multiple choice questions.

1:24:48

And then the people who are who have a disability, they will know what their level is.

So when they book have a little button there saying my disability level is 6 or 7.

So when you go, the people who who you've bought a ticket with, they are aware that you may need some assistance because the the traffic, the numbering system will let them know you're level 6.

1:25:13

OK, so you're fine on the ground floor.

You can go up a couple of steps with assistance.

So they're aware of they may need to help you a little bit more to make your night as an an enjoyable event.

I think as anyone who is disabled has already lost so much, why should they lose this as well?

1:25:36

Why shouldn't they be able to do what they want to do just because they need a bit of help?

Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

But again, I think this kind of greater awareness only comes through dialogue and it's through having conversations with someone like yourself who is, you know, so part so much a part of the paranormal community.

1:25:56

You know, your voice on, on something like this can make such a big difference.

And I think it's incredible all those different spinning plates that you have going on with the various things you that you work on and that you support, because here you are bringing your own experiences and making these small little changes and, and having these discussions with people.

1:26:16

And again, I think that's so incredibly empowering and wonderful when it comes to really, again, that buzzword making things more inclusive, but you're actually physically doing it.

You know you are supporting people and advising people in ways that really do enable people to do this, which is fantastic.

1:26:37

Yeah, I'm very passionate about what I believe in and I do believe that more people should be able to do what they want regards of, you know, how much assistance they need.

And I've noticed that when I'm at the Jamaica Inn recently, we've been, we've had more people with who need assistance.

1:26:59

Either they've got a roll later, they're on crutches or walking sticks.

So they're a bit slower and they need a bit more help to get around the inn.

Whereas before I, I can't recall that we'd had guests with, with needs, with with a disability.

1:27:21

But I'm hoping that by seeing me down there, continuing doing what I love and what I'm passionate about, it inspires more people to do the same.

Don't put anything off.

1:27:36

If you want to do it, then do it by hook or by crook.

You'll find a way to do it.

Believe you may, because I certainly have.

Absolutely.

Oh gosh, absolutely.

And just kind of touching on something that I think is similar to what we've, we've been talking about.

1:27:52

Again, another buzzword within the, the paranormal community is para unity.

You know, it can mean so many different things and it can get bandied around a lot, But really, do we understand?

And do we, you know, is it something that's really truly understood by people who use it in your, you know, for you, in your view, what, what does that word para unity mean for you?

1:28:19

So at the moment I view it that the word power unity is used by people who are trying to be the next big thing or trying to launch their career off of the paranormal community, which I think is wrong.

1:28:36

Where the paranormal community we are all looking for the answer to the same question.

Is there life after death or do I?

When I die, is that it?

I'm done.

The only thing that lives on is my memory.

My body is dead, but does my energy continue to visit people and places that I loved?

1:29:00

So to me, the word power unity should mean that we support each other instead of putting people down, accepting that everyone has different viewpoints and different ways of investigating, instead of Pooh poohing any bit of evidence that they believe they have say, wow, that's really good, well done.

1:29:25

Instead of saying, well, that's not that, that's that, that's I just think we should be supportive, supporting each other more.

Maybe if we all got together and we supported each other more, we'd finally have the answer to the question that we keep asking.

And I think for me, you know, that's part of the part of what you were just explaining when it comes to what that word para unity means, it's that collectively coming together and discussing and working together rather than in, in isolation.

1:29:57

And you know, I, I think if you really are going to have the best kind of discussion and analysis and rigour, that only comes through these kinds of conversations where we can challenge each other and discuss things together in a way that isn't combative.

1:30:19

Where it is people coming in and sharing that same interest in those questions, as you mentioned, from all the different angles that we bring to it and and come at it from in a way that's much more productive rather than what can often happen, which is the falling back into an argument rather than seeing the merit in the discussion and the analysis of the different point of view.

1:30:44

It's OK to have different opinions.

What's important and what's interesting is why do we think differently?

What is it that with, you know, someone else thinks that maybe can make me or I should reflect upon to try and better understand my own position and to push my own thinking critically forward in what I want to do and what I want to achieve and the questions that I have.

1:31:09

How can we best support each other with whatever opinion we have to best do that to be critically analysing what's going on and thinking about it.

And again, the the arguing to me is just a a bit of a time waste and such a shame because it really does detract from that really important and essential dialogue that I think could be so incredibly beneficial.

1:31:32

For everyone, I agree.

To be honest with you, I think the paranormal community has changed so much since I entered it all those years ago.

If I hadn't entered it then and I was thinking about joining the community now, looking at the way it's backstabbing, infighting, it's spiteful, It's got a huge culture where people are picked on and bullied for their beliefs.

1:31:57

I probably wouldn't have even entertained going on my very first investigation all those if I was to Join Now because it has changed so much.

It's not that it is can be a friendly community, but unfortunately there is that dark side where they just want to be famous and they want to make loads of money and they think they're going to do it by being Evette Fielding in a way, the next big thing.

1:32:22

But this is where I think, you know, if that's something that someone comes up against and, and finds and faces, you know, if they're just stepping in and they're touching their, you know, dipping their toes into finding out and exploring more, you know, look a little bit further.

1:32:39

Because there are amazing teams, there are amazing venues.

There are amazing people who have that kind of mindset of coming together and discussing and it being this supportive environment that I think if you, if you can, if you can find your tribe and you can find these institutions and these organisations that also have these same ethics and standards and ways of approaching things.

1:33:07

You know, that's when again, I think it can be hugely beneficial.

You know, you can find you can suddenly just step into a whole other paranormal world, if you like, that is completely removed from that kind of first impression of the fighting and the, you know, the the negativity that can certainly, we can always see at some point.

1:33:31

You know, you only have to scroll through social media to see it.

But there is something really, truly wonderful when you scratch that surface and you go beneath that, that I think is really powerful.

And I think if that can really continue to blossom, it would be amazing.

Oh, wouldn't it?

Truly brilliant?

1:33:47

Really would, Yeah.

I think it's very easy to become consumed with hatred.

It's it's easy to hate.

It's harder to love, especially love someone or something for their differences.

It's a shame.

1:34:04

It really is.

There's so many, there's, there's so much that could be put right in the world with a little bit of love.

Absolutely.

So just kind of coming to the end of our chat here, what, what kinds of plans have you got next?

1:34:20

Lisa, what are you up to next?

Any investigations or, you know, future projects that you're working on that you're excited about or just looking forward to?

So plans for the future.

I have some more events that Corinne and I are planning.

1:34:36

I think at the moment, last count it was seven that we're planning for next year and the following year.

These are some private nights at the Jamaica Inn.

We've got a public night coming up next year at the Old Vicarage in Bridgewater and we have 3 weekends, paranormal weekends, which we go to with our paranormal family, which are amazing.

1:35:04

We absolutely love it and we get to stay at these amazing venues and see what we can find, see if see if we can get the the answer to the question.

Finally, I am also doing some more consultation work for Paranormal Consultants with the Coaching in Group and other Inns.

1:35:25

I work alongside Corinne and consult with Visit Somerset and I have redone the website for Warmly Clock Tower on the outskirts of Bristol because it needs updating, so I've done that.

1:35:41

So I'm maintaining that for them as well, and I am currently writing another novel as well.

Very, very busy year ahead then, by the sounds of it.

Yes.

More plates to spin.

Definitely, yeah.

1:35:58

Make sure to breathe in between some of that so that you can keep going and have someone offer you drinks to stay hydrated because that's a busy year.

That's a very busy year.

But I am so after everything I've gone through, I am so determined to fill my life to the absolute brim and make amazing memories with my friends, with my family.

1:36:20

I'm not going to let anything stop me.

Chances are the cancer could come back and if it does, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

But until that happens, I am going to be as busy as I possibly can.

And just kind of coming back to your amazing book, where's the best place for someone to pick up a copy of of the book My Boob Tried to Kill Me?

1:36:47

Where would you where would you recommend someone go to be able to grab a copy?

So you can order it from Amazon because it's self published on Amazon.

You can also order it through Waterstones and Foils in London.

1:37:04

They have it on their website.

So basically just put the name of the title into Google and it will show you where you can purchase it.

But Amazon seems to be the best bet at the moment because their turn around is within a couple of days.

And as we kind of brought up in the in the podcast, it's a book really for anyone.

1:37:25

And, you know, I think if we if we take a moment to think about it, we probably all know someone for whom the book could help, whether it's someone going through that rough time in their lives or someone who is supporting someone who is.

1:37:41

And you know, this is the book that you may want to consider, may want to have a look at to see if it's something that could make a difference to someone going through something right now.

So I will, you know, make sure to obviously try and also include a link to the book in both the podcast description notes and on the website and share all of that as best as I can.

1:38:05

Because as I said to you earlier, and I genuinely, genuinely mean it, Lisa, it is the book I wish I'd had when I was 16, when I was trying to navigate it all as that teenager taking on the world and feeling I had to do it by myself.

It's the book I wish I'd had.

1:38:22

So yeah, I will do my best to to make sure that it's easily accessible for anyone else.

Thank you SO.

Listening to the podcast.

Thank you that's that would be amazing.

Just get the word out there to help people.

Yeah, yeah.

And honestly, thank you so much for your time, Lisa, in, in talking about everything that you've been through, but also sharing that positive attitude that you've got about everything that, you know, I think we all need sometimes and we all need to be reminded that we have that inside of us and to look forward.

1:38:55

And yeah, it's just been such a joy to to talk to you and to find out everything that you've been up to and your, you know, your plans for the future.

And yeah, just your thoughts on your experience and and your book, but also about the paranormal community just in general.

1:39:11

Thank you so much for having me.

Honestly, it's been such a joy and pleasure for me.

So thank you so much for your time, Lisa, and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

Thank you for.

1:39:26

Joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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1:39:42

Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.