Maurice Barbanell's Life And Legacy In Spiritualism With Dr. Nick Richbell

0:17

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0:33

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0:59

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1:34

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1:58

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

Welcome to another episode of Haunted History Chronicles.

2:15

Today we delve into the life of a figure whose name may not be on the tip of your tongue, but whose impact on the world of spiritualism was nothing short of profound.

Our focus today is Maurice Barbanel, a man who dedicated 61 years to the world of spiritualism.

2:34

He wasn't just a medium.

He was a trailblazer, a public speaker, a writer, and the editor behind one of the most influential spiritualist publications of the 20th century.

From his fervent public discourses to his contentious debates and his deep connection with the spirit world through his guide Silver Birch, Barbonell's journey is a story of dedication, conflict, and legacy.

3:02

But why, you may ask, is Maurice Barbernell's name often overlooked in contemporary discussions, even as the teachings of his spirit guide, Silver Birch continue to resonate within spiritualist circles?

To help us navigate through Barbernell's intriguing life and his lasting impact is Doctor Nick Richbell, a recent PhD graduate in history from the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada.

3:31

His doctoral dissertation brings Maurice Barbannell's narrative back into the spotlight, presenting him as the 20th century's leading advocate for the spiritualist religion and movement.

His meticulous research is shedding new light on this almost forgotten figure, reasserting his place in the history of spiritualism.

3:52

In today's episode, we'll explore Barbannell's rise as a prominent spiritualist, his role as the editor of Psychic News, his mediumship, and his enduring legacy through the teachings of Silver.

Birch will also dive into the conflicts he faced both within the spiritualist community and from external sceptics, and how he navigated these challenges to become a key propagandist for the Spiritualist movement.

4:20

So dim the lights, settle into your seat, and prepare to journey with us into the past as we uncover the haunted history of Maurice Barbenel with my special guest, Doctor Nick Rich Bell.

Hi, Nick, thank you so much for.

4:41

Joining me this evening.

Hi, Michelle.

Thanks for having me.

Do you want to?

Start by just introducing yourself to the listeners and sharing a little bit about your background.

Sure.

So I'm Doctor Nick Richbel.

I'm an archivist and historian, so archivist by profession.

4:59

I'm a head of special collections at Clemson University in South Carolina.

Before coming here, I was head of archives at the University of Waterloo in Ontario.

And while there working in that archive, I became interested in history and spiritualism as we had some spiritualism collections based on seances that took place in Southwest Ontario.

5:20

So I decided to to actually do a PhD in history on the subject.

We're going to talk about today Maurice Barbenelle and his spirit guide, Silver Birch.

And you know, I think it's been a fascinating journey to get this point.

And I'm pleased to have this platform with you to to talk about Maurice Barbenelle and his life and career.

5:41

So do you want to just help set the scene a little bit about Maurice Barbenelle's life and maybe take us back to his early life and his upbringing in East London to tell us more about him?

Sure.

So Maurice was born Maurice Morris.

He changed his name to Maurice probably in his 20s.

5:59

He was born on May the 3rd 1902 in Mile End, East London.

His parents came from Eastern Europe.

His dad Monell was born in Russia and his mother Rifka, later known as Rachel, was born in Warsaw, Poland.

So Manel emigrated to London in 1900 and Rachel followed him a year later in 19 O1.

6:24

She stayed behind for a year looking after their two eldest children, Sophie and Sammy, who were born there.

And then obviously she followed her husband.

I imagine they were fleeing the programs of Eastern Europe and how difficult it was to live there at that time, you know, and with hoping to start a better life in London.

6:42

Of course, London at that time for immigrants was not a great place to be either.

They, you know, lived in, you know, A2 room apt, I guess we can call it in, in the East End of London.

And there were six children in all.

6:57

Morris was the 3rd, as I said, followed by Sarah, Esther and Annie was the youngest one, all born in London.

His dad Manelle was what was called a master hairdresser, likely working from the home.

So you can imagine in A2 room apartment there wasn't much room for eight people to live and work, so it must have been very uncomfortable.

7:18

I would imagine at one point it's reported that Maurice told someone that they had bedbugs and at night they would have to use wet bars of soap to kind of get rid of the bedbugs before they went to bed.

So that kind of gives you an idea of how difficult it was living at that time.

7:35

I learnt that his mum, Rifka Rachel in Eastern Europe owned maybe a millinery factory.

So she was, you know, likely quite well off before she came to England.

And then their circumstances were quite different, although, you know, they weren't poor by any means, but they weren't living in the best conditions.

7:58

They did eventually move into a four room apartment so, you know, doubled their space, but still a family of eight, that would have been quite, quite tight for them.

So I know not much is known about Maurice's childhood because later on in life, as he turned to spiritualism, there were lost contact with his family.

8:19

I did get to interview Leslie Brooks who is Maurice's niece.

Her mum was Annie Barbenelle, the youngest child, and she said she never got to meet Maurice.

And they believed that, you know, as he found spiritualism, his mother, who was devoutly Jewish, likely, you know, turned her back on her son at that time.

8:39

So just kind of touching upon something that you just kind of referenced there in terms of his mother's religion, you know, how how would you say his parents differing beliefs influenced his views on spirituality and religion?

I think they greatly influenced him.

8:55

So as I said, Rachel, she was developing Jewish, she kept a Jewish Home.

And Manel Maurice's dad was an atheist.

So you can imagine the conversations that went on in that house between mum and dad about religion.

9:12

You know, they, I think they had probably heated arguments even about it.

So Maurice was growing up in this, in this environment, hearing these discussions between his parents and he, you know, did later on in life say that he followed his dad's beliefs more than his mum.

9:31

He never shield away from his Jewish origins.

He was very proud of them.

He actually lived in several different areas of London known for the Jewish populations, including Finchley and Golders Green.

But I think he, and this is where as we, you know, we'll talk about this further.

9:50

His, you know, Ponchon for arguing, if you like with people or you know, having disputes probably was formed at this early age in the home.

So what led Maurice to attend his first seance and and how did that experience shape his view of spiritualism?

10:08

So this is probably my favorite piece about Maurice's life, if you like.

So around the age of 18 and 1920, he was the secretary of the Ghetto Social and literary collab in London.

And his job as a secretary was to go up into a debate with someone and to always hold the opposing view, you know, in in contrast to the invited speaker and then 1920, the speaker was there to talk about spiritualism.

10:37

And for whatever reason, Maurice Barbenelle felt that he could not participate in this debate because he did not know enough about spiritualism.

So he cut, you know, among to the upset of his friends, if you like, in the club.

He just would not go into the debate.

10:54

The speaker invited Maurice to join him in a seance so he could start and challenged him to investigate spiritualism.

Maurice wrote that he would give himself six months to to investigate spiritualism so he could engage in this debate.

11:10

And this six months turned into 61 years.

And then as I said, the speaker invited him to a seance in East London.

So this was was when he his first experience of first hand of of spiritualism.

So can you describe the the the moment when Maurice first experienced mediumship and and how Silver Birch began communicating through him?

11:35

Sure.

So the first time, this first seance he went to, he, he found it laughable.

He actually said he laughed out loud during the seance.

He couldn't believe what he was seeing and hearing.

So this was in the home of Ethel and Tobias Blaustein, also immigrants from Eastern Europe and very prominent Jewish spiritualists in the community.

11:56

They founded several Jewish spiritualist organisations.

Ethel was the medium and she was known to speak in different languages those that she would not have been familiar with in her everyday life.

And, you know, so Maurice found this, you know, hilarious as he wrote, he went back a second time maybe the week later.

12:19

And during this seance, he, he fell asleep.

He actually didn't fall asleep.

He went into a trance.

So this was when Silver Birch decided it was time to start working with his channel Maurice.

And when he woke up, he was embarrassed.

12:34

He apologized for falling asleep.

Then he was told no, no, you were in a trance and now you were going to continue with this work going forward now that your spirit guide has come through.

This was the first time that Silver Birch appeared with Barburnell, even though, as Silver Birch has said later on, he always knew he would be working with Maurice Barburnell even from the point of Maurice's conception back in 19 O 102, so he he was destined to do this work.

13:03

And something that you touched upon, and I think that's resonated in some of the statements that you've made about Maurice's life, you know, this kind of environment that he grew up in around discourse and discussion and debate and people having different opinions, you know, and then his involvement obviously in groups like you mentioned, the Ghetto Social and the Literary Club, you know, how did those contribute, do you think, to his development as a public speaker and an adversary as you, as you've already touched upon, that kind of comes through in terms of all aspects of his life through those 61 years as he's involved in spiritualism?

13:42

So I, I think if Maurice was around today, we would, you know, label him a nerd, you know, like so many of us are, who are fascinated with one particular area of, of life.

So I think, you know, Maurice grew up a learned child.

I think, you know, he read about world religions.

14:00

And again, this is something that Silva Birch has said to have influenced him as he was growing into his teen years before they started working together.

But there's no doubt, whether it was his parents arguing in the home or the the debate club, this was just the perfect kind of breeding ground from Maurice Barbonelle for the 61 year career he had that a lot of times, especially in the 1930s as we'll look at, he was an adversarial at best and antagonistic at best of people around him and those who he felt were doing a disservice to spiritualism.

14:36

I think you used a really appropriate word for him, though, that, you know, he was a learned man.

And you could see that about the fact that his role was to be always arguing one position in these debates.

But he didn't feel he could do that when it came to spiritualism because he didn't know enough about it.

14:53

So rather than, you know, giving in completely and dismissing it and just never coming back to that topic, his approach was, well, I'm going to go and find out more about that.

And I think that speaks volumes about his character and this very open mind and just desire to know and to learn things.

15:12

I think that says a lot about him.

It does.

You're right.

And you know, he, even though he was strong in his beliefs, he was always welcoming of those who opposed him.

You know, he liked that challenge.

I think he wanted to educate people about spiritualism.

15:29

He wanted to have this platform, whatever that took, whether it was a propaganda tour or psychic news.

He he would often print people who didn't agree with him.

So it wasn't as if he was always believed.

He was right all the time, but he welcomed the challenge of these debates.

15:49

And you touched upon something just then that I think, again, is also important, which is his role in psychic news and, you know, sharing of information.

Again, just very much demonstrating the learned man that he was and interested in sharing information, being open to new information and having a space to to kind of bring that to people's attention.

16:11

But there's been some confusion around how Psychic News was founded.

Do you want to help clear that up and go on to explain what inspired Maurice to found Psychic News in 1932?

And then, you know, what were some of the challenges he faced in those early days?

16:29

Of course.

So founding Psychic News, according to Maurice, was the big biggest decision of his life that he ever took.

So the confusion is that a lot of people believe wrongly, that J Arthur Findlay was involved in the founding of Psychic News.

16:44

He wasn't.

Findlay's Wikipedia page, of course, is incorrect to this point as well.

But Wikipedia is is not often supportive of anything related to spiritualism.

That's a whole another podcast we can we can go into there.

So basically what happened was Maurice Barbenel was a director of some companies of which I've never been able to find out what companies he was a director of.

17:08

But he was failing.

It was the 1930s, early, early on, the depression was happening.

Life wasn't easy for anyone.

So he had to wrap up these businesses, and he was working with a gentleman called JM Rubens who was helping to to wrap up the accounts for these failed businesses.

17:27

He suggested to Maurice Barbenel and Hanan Swaffer.

So Han Swaffer is or was a famous drama critic on journalist and spiritualist himself.

And he became friendly with Barbenel.

And they'd done a lot of propaganda tours during the 1920s.

17:44

And Rubens suggested to these fellows that they should consider providing some editorial support to a psychic publication that was being considered.

Nothing came of that, and Maurice Barbenel likely thought nothing of it.

Then he turned to Maurice and suggested he actually start his own psychic newspaper.

18:05

Of course, Maurice Barbenel was not a journalist, and he had great reservations about entering into this domain.

So he, of course, as a spiritualist, turned to his medium friends.

So he had some sittings and during one of them with Alfred Val Peters, WT Steed came through and was interested in Maurice Barbenell pursuing creating a psychic newspaper.

18:30

And he, Steed, was a journalist himself and he perished on the Titanic and then published some posthumous books, if you like, after his passing.

But he was urging Barbenell to go down this road.

He said that Barbenell had journalistic urges in his fingers and he needed to cultivate his writing powers, and he saw him working with Hannan Swaffer on doing this.

18:58

That was not enough for Maurice Barbonelle, so he then turned to his friend Estelle Roberts, a very well known medium of her time.

Roberts was known to give huge performances or demonstrations of mediumship at the Royal Abbot Hall, for example, and she worked with a spirit guide called Red Cloud.

19:16

Now Red Cloud told Barbannell that these plans were already made and that he would be going forward to do bigger work.

So really, Barbannell had no choice he that this was what was going to happen in his life.

Then again, needing yet more confirmation that this was going to happen, Maurice Barbannell found an unknown medium called Kathleen Burkle, who worked with a spirit guide called Whitehawk.

19:41

Again, Whitehawk told Barbonelle that everything was ready for a psychic newspaper to be published and then the rest is history.

So really, the founding was with, you know, three or four dead men, and not with J Arthur Findlay.

So what were some of the challenges that he faced during those early days?

20:00

If you like.

Sure.

So I mean, the biggest challenge was finance.

You know, there there was getting the money together to to start publishing psychic news.

Bar Bunnell was a failed businessman, didn't have much money.

So between Rubens Swaffer and Bar Bunnell, they were each going to contribute the same amount of money, about 600 or so pounds, to get psychic news going.

20:27

Swaffer suddenly decided not to do that because he did not want people to think he was earning money from spiritualism, so he withdrew his financial support.

So Maurice Barburnell ended up borrowing money from a friend to to get the newspaper started.

20:43

So they did.

But for, you know, the first little, little bit of time, finances were tough.

And this is when J Arthur Finley comes into the story.

Maurice Barburnell wrote to Findlay asking if he would contribute an article to the newspaper.

21:00

Findlay had recently published, On the Edge of the Etheric, a book about his own journey through spiritualism with the medium John Sloan.

And that book was was wrapped incredibly successful and republished many times over the course of a couple of years.

21:18

So Findlay came on board and provided thousands of pounds of financial support and he founded the Psychic Press alongside Barbenell as well.

So they were the the main challenges at the beginning was, was financial.

And just for anyone who's unclear as to, you know, maybe what the psychic news was, do you want to just share maybe some of the mission statements, if you like?

21:45

What was its purpose?

Would you say in in a quick summation what was the aim behind it?

Psychic news was really to to bring light on, you know, psychic stuff if you like.

So Maurice Barbenow was known.

You know, spiritualism is about really at it's heart is communicating with the dead and bringing forward messages from those who passed over to the other side.

22:09

And so psychic knew the really this platform to tell stories about psychic events and you know, phenomena.

And you know, we could Helen Duncan would have appeared in it, for example, you know, and their very first issue in 1932 was a challenge to the Daily Mail, who had, you know, the press was supportive of spiritualism.

22:32

Same 1920s.

And then by come the 1930s, the tide was turning.

And the Daily Mail in particular had published an article about a medium called Nurik Morris and her spirit guide called Power and how she was fraudulent.

22:50

And this became a huge, you know, legal case between her and the newspaper.

And so this was a great platform for Maurice Barber now to start speaking out against these people who were against spiritualism and even those who were involved in spiritualism but were forging themselves.

23:08

And he was obviously involved for quite some time.

Do you want to just explain the circumstances that led to him leaving Psychic News in 1946 and then no, obviously coming back in 1962?

Sure.

So about 1945, Barburnell had realized, you know, he was going to get old, and so was Arthur Finley.

23:30

And Finley being a bit older than him, Barburnell was concerned what would happen if Finley dies to the shares that were created in the companies that they were leading together.

So he wanted Arthur Finley to donate his shares to either himself or to, you know, the newspaper so they could ensure that, you know, they could keep publishing after the the death of one of them.

23:56

Arthur Finley was not interested in doing this.

He was already planning to leave his home, the which is now the Arthur Finley College to the Spiritualist National Union.

So it could be a training camp for mediums.

And he, you know, said to Barb and L.

24:15

Well if you can come up with 8000 lbs in within the week then I will sell my shares to you.

Barbonelle A couldn't come up with that money in in a week and didn't feel he should.

So instead he gave his resignation into the newspaper.

He served his one year notice so they could find a new editor and so he left and it was a very, you know, in the middle of the paper.

24:37

The announcement was a couple of sentences saying as of this date, Maurice Barbonelle is no longer editor and has been handed over to to Stuart Martin to edit.

But Barbenow didn't give up working in journalism.

He went on to edit The Two Worlds, which was the rival psychic newspaper of its day, which started publishing in the late 1800s by Emma Harding Britain.

25:04

And then he did return in 1962.

I'm not really sure what happened in that year because Finley, he passed away in 1964, so something must have shifted.

But he said when he returned to Psychic News, it wasn't in the condition that the good condition he left it in in 1946, that we were going to run down office finances were bad.

25:26

But again, thanks to the intervention of the spirit world, he was able to turn it around.

And you've obviously spoken a little bit about Arthur Findlay.

Do you want to just go into the nature of the relationship between Maurice and Arthur Findlay and and how that really did kind of influence what happened at Psychic News?

25:48

So I think at the beginning they they must have been good friends or at least good businessmen colleagues, if you like, because Finley was with them for for many years and gave a lot of money to keep Psychic News afloat.

So it is kind of sad that they did fall out over these shares in, you know, 194546 and Arthur Finley apparently didn't have any I'll will towards Maurice Barbenelle because in his autobiography he didn't have anything bad to say about Barbenelle.

26:18

You know, it was just a, a business decision I think that led them to to part ways as they did in 46.

And how would you say Barbenelle's role as editor of Two Worlds kind of complimented his work with Psychic news?

26:35

So I think that's an interesting question.

I'm not sure if compliment is right here because they were rival newspapers.

They did in I think 2018 kind of become one.

So two worlds got absorbed into psychic news, if you like.

26:53

And I think what's interesting during this period because of around 1957 that Maurice Barbonelle came out, if you like, as the the medium for Silver Birch, who had been published since 1935 in psychic news in his teachings.

27:08

So he, you know, he revealed a huge secret, but not in psychic news, his, you know, his beloved psychic newspaper.

But it was in, you know, this rival paper that he he did this monumental announcement about this that, you know, people didn't know what was the case.

27:29

And obviously we've touched upon how he loved to engage in public discourse and, and discussions and arguments with blood.

Paul, what would you say were some of his significant public battles in support of spiritualism?

27:46

You know, who were those figures that he went up against?

You know, I'm thinking, you know, people like Harry, Harry Price and, you know, the Church of England.

I don't think there was anyone who wasn't prepared to battle with in terms of different, different opinions really was there.

There wasn't.

And this is what I love about Maurice Barbonelle.

28:03

So I just say as an archivist, you know, I work with many papers of many people who are no longer with us, and you develop this kind of relationship with them.

And throughout writing my dissertation, I feel like I've developed this relationship with Maurice Barbenelle as well.

And no, you're right, Michelle.

28:19

He would speak out about anyone.

It didn't matter who you were, as long as, you know, he felt he was strong in his conviction and that he was not even necessarily right.

That's not the right word.

But what he he was saying, what he believed in, then he would.

28:34

So Harry Price, of course.

So Harry Price, you know, as people know, was quite a infamous, if you like, debunker of psychic phenomena, especially physical phenomena.

He was probably the most vocal opponent of Helen Duncan, you know, accusing her of from having two stomachs in when she produced ectoplasm to regurgitating cheese clock.

29:01

That's where those accusations came from.

So Harry Price, so if we go back to when Maurice Bourbonnell was publishing Psychic news for the first time, like he wrote to Arthur Findlay, he also wrote to Harry Price, his friend at that time, to see if he would submit an article just talking about why Harry Price believed that spiritualism more than for religion.

29:24

So, you know, there was some friendliness between them at that point.

Then later on, in the 1930s, Harry Price went off to the Hars Mountains in Germany to conduct a an experiment.

29:40

And the experiment's aim was to demonstrate that the days of sorcery were over.

And this involved using a virgin, a group of magicians, a white male goat whose mouth was and a quote to be smeared with blood, honey and the metal scraped from church bells.

29:56

And they would get around to some incantations.

And the goat was supposed to be transformed into a youth of surpassing beauty.

So of course, there was a lot of newspaper interest in this.

Journalists went to watch him do this, and nothing happened.

Of course, you know, Knuckle, we would expect it to.

30:14

Maurice Barbonelle picked on this as soon as it happened and would publish many comments about Harry Price in psychic news deriding him, making, you know, comments about him.

You know, one he said he was bringing up Helen Duncan again and he wanted Harry Price to reproduce some ectoplasm he was said to have taken from Helen Duncan who gave to Hanan Swaffer.

30:38

But Maurice Barbenell said, you know, oh, maybe the goat ate it from when you were in the mountains in Germany.

Of course, Harry Price as well, similar to to Maurice Barbenelle also not afraid of some, you know, public disputes.

Then they got into this bit of a, you know, a battle in the pages of Psychic News about this.

30:57

This did culminate in the late 1930s with a legal case between Harry Price and Maurice Barbenow in Psychic News.

Because Harry Price had given an interview to a Sheffield newspaper and he was denouncing mediumship and mediums.

31:14

And Barbenelle didn't like this so sued him for libel, a case that didn't go anywhere in the courts because Harry Price seemingly ran off from that.

And so nothing happened of that.

I was just going to say, doesn't that just show his character, though, in terms of his reactions to how he deals with it?

31:32

I mean, just thinking about the response that he he has for Harry Price about the cheesecloth and maybe it was the goat, and the fact that he is prepared to stand by what he believes in and go through an entire court proceeding process to challenge something that he believes is wrong.

31:49

I mean, again, I think it says a lot about his character, but also about his wit.

There's something quite charming about him as well, I think.

There is, but it's also part of me kind of finds it sad, Michelle, is that they were once friends and now that, you know, he, he's kind of burned some bridges in his support of spiritualism.

32:08

So he wasn't afraid to lose friendships, whether it was Arthur Findlay over money or, you know, Harry Price over, you know, some, you know, strange, strange display of sorcery in the German mountains, He wasn't afraid to lose friend.

32:26

He also, though, Michelle, he was not afraid to let something to keep something going, to keep these fires burning, as we see with the Church of England.

So in the 1920 Lambeth Conference, the bishops of the Church of England, they tried to address the effect of spiritualism on the Church of England.

32:45

It didn't go anywhere at that time, and nothing happened for many years until the 1930s.

Francis Underhill, who was the Dean of Rochester and later the the Bishop of Bath and Wells.

He was investigating spiritualism himself in terms of seeing mediums and experiencing having readings and wanted to know the wider effect of spiritualism on the church.

33:08

So he approached the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Cosmo Lang, to see if he would set up a formal committee to study spiritualism.

Lang didn't want to have something so public, so he formed a small committee of, you know, maybe 10 or 12 people to spend a year or two investigating the effect of spiritualism on the Church of England.

33:30

And bear in mind, you know, we know from one of your other guests, Dr. Kyle Falcon, that there's a period of when there's war, people turn to spiritualism in their time of grief to get answers and keep that connection going with loved ones who died.

33:46

And so the Church of England, like other organized religion, had lost people coming to them because they weren't able to address death and what happens to people after they die, especially in such tragic times of war.

So this committee served, you know, they met 12 times.

34:04

They produced a report.

And there was a majority report and a minority report.

Majority said there was something to spiritualism but didn't really want to go into confirming what the effect that was on the church.

And three members went against that, even though this was secret.

34:22

Word had got out that this was happening.

And of course, Maurice Barber now knew this was happening.

And so he spent from the 1930s to the 1970s, when the report was finally published, going against the Church of England and every Archbishop of Canterbury who served to get them to publish this report, which they would not do because they said it was a private report and was never intended to be published.

34:47

Interesting that excerpts and the report was published by Psychic News at a time when Barbanel was not there when he was not editing it, which I think is interesting.

Even though Barbanel claims that his greatest scoop was publishing the the Church's report on spiritualism, he claims to have been friends with one of the members of the committee, a Harley Street psychologist, who, although he did not give Barbanel the report, Maurice Barbenow said one day in his office, he left the report on his desk for Maurice to read.

35:22

Maurice claimed to have been able to remember it word by word and then republish it.

So there's some confusion definitely around who was who was the first person to publish this report.

And I'm not convinced it was Maurice Barbenow.

I'm against what he says.

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38:08

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38:26

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Let us venture forth.

For the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

So how did Bob Annell's editorship help in propagating Silver Birch's teachings?

38:51

And you know, why are those teachings considered so significant in spiritualist philosophy?

So around 1935, Psychic News, I think it was Hennan Swaffer's suggestion that they should start publishing the teachings of Silver Birch because they were so meaningful to the to the Hennan Swaffer home circle, of which Silver Birch and Maurice Barburnell were the the leaders, if you like.

39:18

So Maurice Barburnell agreed to publish the teachings as long as he could retain his anonymity.

He didn't want people to know it was him.

And again, like Swaffer withdrawing financial support from founding Psychic News, Bob Bennell didn't want people to think he was profiting from Silver Birch's teachings.

39:36

He didn't want to be seen as making money from them.

So they started publishing.

It could have been questions from the public to Silver Birch that were posed to him during one of the the Home Circle seances.

Or it could have been, you know, the philosophy that Silver Birch was communicating through Maurice Barbenel every Friday evening at Maurice Barbenow's home in northwest London.

40:00

And I think that the teachings are significant because they're they're foundational, I think to spiritualism.

You can read them, you learn from them, and then you can set them aside and continue your own belief system into what you believe spiritualism to be and what you have learned through your time.

40:16

You know, I think Silver Birch teachings are definitely from a time.

Silver Birch did not believe in euthanasia, didn't believe in keeping people on life support.

You know, abortion was, you know, against his philosophy because he believed, you know, life has a natural end date and we shouldn't be prolonging someone's life medically.

40:37

And which, of course, today we do that.

And when Silver Birch was around for the first many years, that wasn't a possibility.

Medic medicine has come a long way since then, so I'd be curious to know what Silver Birch would say today about the the state of the world and life as it is.

40:54

So what contributions did Maurice make to the Spiritualist National Union?

So a lot during the late 1920s, he, he gave, he was part of the propaganda committee.

So that was popular in the beginning of the SNU and then kind of went out of fashion.

41:13

And then in the about 1931, the SNU restarted their propaganda activities.

And I know people are shocked that we use the word propaganda within spiritualism.

This is what they were doing.

So Barbenel and Hanan Swaffer would travel the country in the United Kingdom over the course of three years and they spoke to, as they claim, audiences of, you know, 250,000 people over those three years where they would try and educate people about spiritualism, tell them what it is, what it means.

41:47

Bourbonnelle would be speaking out against the laws that were against mediums and mediumship.

So he was very involved with that.

Then he was the vice president of the London Area Group for the SNU for a while.

He also became a minister with the SNU before the Second World War, actually about 1928, which meant he didn't have to serve in the Second World War because he was a religious minister and he actually wanted to become president or vice president of the SNU.

42:17

But he was never voted in to do that.

And he stopped his involvement officially with the SNU around the time that he founded Psychic News.

And you know, right at the very beginning of the podcast, we obviously spoke about Maurice's very early upbringing and his parents role in his life and maybe how that impacted on some of the decisions and the the kind of the route that he took in life.

42:41

Being someone who liked to speak publicly and have these types of discourses with others.

Do you want to just kind of go into maybe some of his later life and you know, the two marriages that he had and and how his personal life again influenced his professional?

42:58

Work.

So he married Lily Black on August the 15th, 2019, 25.

Maurice was only 23 at the time, I believe Lily was 24.

They had one son, Derek, and unfortunately Lily and Maurice divorced around six years later.

43:16

Divorce at that time would have been hard to do.

So it seems that what happened was Maurice, you likely said set this up so a few times he was caught in a hotel room with another woman in two different hotels in central London.

43:32

So that gave Lily, you know, the cause to to sue him for divorce because, you know, she had proof that he was committing adultery.

He claimed he was a gentleman throughout the whole marriage, which makes it interesting that this was, you know, in the divorce papers that he was caught with another woman.

43:51

What I find interesting as well, only four days after his divorce was finalized in the court, he married for the second time and he married a woman called Sylvia Abrahams, who was his wife for the rest of his life.

They were together until 1981 when Maurice Barbonello passed away himself.

44:11

So how did this influence his professional work with his first wife, Lily?

I think this is when he would have been ostracized from the family when his mother no longer spoke to him because he was involved in spiritualism at that time and that's how dedicated he was to spiritualism is that he was prepared to to leave his family behind for that.

44:33

He later on in life, a letter came into Psychic News from someone claiming to be his son.

Roy Stemann, who opened the the letter and he was working for Psychic News at the time, knocked on Barbara Nell's door and said, oh, there's a letter here.

44:49

It's marked personal and confidential, but it's saying from someone who's saying they're your son.

And he's like, yes, that is my son.

I haven't seen him for years.

And they did meet for lunch.

And then Roy said he never heard the son's name mentioned again, which is interesting.

Sylvia, on the other hand, his second wife, she was involved in Psychic news.

45:09

She was an author herself.

She would write about what happens when children die or when your pet dies, and she often produced articles within psychic news, often related to things like vegetarianism and animal protection and anti cruelty to animals.

45:27

So how did Maurice kind of balance his commercial career alongside that dedication that he had towards spiritualism before really kind of fully committing to the latter?

So I'm not sure he did balance his commercial career.

45:43

I think because he was a failed businessman.

He wasn't terribly good at business by all accounts, whether that was him or just the time in the 1930s, I think spiritualism became his business, if you like.

You know, he he was editor of two spiritualist newspapers for 61 years together.

46:01

So that became his commercial career for like keeping those alive.

You know, he did write many books.

He published No 1415 books throughout his life.

So he was able to make money that way as well from spiritualism, oftentimes repeating the same stories in his books.

46:16

I have to say, which can be hard to to read that time and time again.

And you know, I talked about his issues with the with the Church of England.

He also had issues with the Catholic Church.

He was able to produce pamphlets and books about these challenges he had with them and made money from.

46:38

So what were Barbenell's views on reincarnation?

And, you know, is that something that changed throughout his life?

Yep.

So reincarnation I think is the most challenging part for spiritualists because spiritualists in general don't believe in reincarnation.

46:55

When you die, your spirit goes over and that's how spirits communicate afterwards.

So if you reincarnate, how is spirit communication happening?

Suburbanel was definitely anti reincarnation, did not believe in it because of his spiritualistic beliefs.

Then I think those evolved over time with his work with Silver Birch and that.

47:16

And I think we can describe it this way.

And this is how a friend of mine described it to me.

When you Passover, when you leave your physical body, you do, you know, your soul passes over, but a little piece of you can reincarnate.

So it's not the whole of you, it's just a piece of you and that will come back into the earth.

47:35

So which allows, you might say, oh, you know, my son Joe has these characteristics that are just like Grandpa John.

So it's just that little bit of Grandpa John that's come come through.

So, you know, and I think this just shows that with spiritualism, you can change your view.

47:52

You're not expected to believe the same thing throughout the whole of your your life.

You can and you should grow with with the religion that you're you're following.

So how did Barbenell approach mediumship and transcommunication?

Did he have any particular methodologies that he believed in and approaches that he kind of took to his craft?

48:15

So these aren't entirely clear through everything I've read about Barbenell, but I know that he was aware that there were doubts that people had about the veracity of mediumship, including his own.

Yet Maurice was adamant that Silver Birch was not, as some people would say, a secondary personality.

48:34

He knew that his spirit guide had a complete individual individuality of his own, but knew that because mediumship is performed by human beings, it's always possible that those messages from spirit could be colored by the mind of the medium.

48:52

And I think for for Barbonell, how he approached mediumship, then it was time that made him better.

At the beginning he was very aware of what was happening.

He said he would often lie in bed and it was almost like watching a movie of the messages or the the philosophy that he delivered from Silver Birch.

49:13

And then the more he did it, the more he was able to remove his ego from the equation and distance himself from the message and not be aware of what he said afterwards.

And this is quite common with mediums, if you talk to them now, is that most mediums when they deliver messages afterwards, they don't remember what they've said.

49:33

They don't remember who came through, who they spoke to, because they've removed themselves completely from their mind, if you like, so that the message is not coming from their subconscious, but it's coming from the spirit guide that they're channelling.

So what were Barbonell's views on the authenticity and ethics of Mediumship?

49:53

You know, particularly regarding the portrayal of racialized identities and seances.

So this, this is a great question.

So Silver Birch, as we know, presented as Indigenous American and the story changes through through the early years where he says he's Indigenous American, then he's not, then he is, then he's not.

50:18

So it's quite confusing.

And even Hannon Swaffer wrote about this in one of his books that at the beginning, Silver Birch came through and the English he used was not easy to follow.

But yet over the years, his English improved and was, you know, very easy to understand.

50:37

And I think with Barbonell and Silver Birch, and this is a common belief among spiritualists of that time, is that indigenous Americans would present themselves as spirit guides because people were more likely to believe what was being said because of the this stereotype, stereotype and trope of the Native Americans being, you know, lovers of nature and spiritual people themselves.

51:05

So I think it is problematic.

I think we can argue that this is, you know, appropriation of another culture with the spirit guides portraying themselves in a particular way.

It's interesting how the UK, the mediums, a lot of them, their, their spirit guides were either from the Middle East or from India or from countries that have been colonized, colonized by the United Kingdom over time.

51:31

So I think it's a highly problematic area of mediumship.

And I, I talk about this in my, my dissertation, you know, in the language that's used and the, it's almost the accents that are used.

There's a mimicry of of the spirit guides and who they're portraying as a as a race in the seance room.

51:53

So how do you think Maurice Barbanel contribute?

You know his contributions have shaped spiritualism.

What would you say his impact has been?

So I think his impact has been immense.

If nowadays seen as behind the scenes, he certainly doesn't have, you know, isn't spoken about like other propagandists of spiritualism, which I think is sad, which is why I, you know, chose him as a topic for my dissertation.

52:22

You know, and I think as we've talked about throughout this podcast, Michelle, because he wasn't afraid to speak out and he did speak out in favour of spiritualism and against spiritualism when they were fraudulent mediums.

He was, you know, uncovering.

So I would like to think that he has influenced spiritualism today.

52:41

We just don't know it's his influence because he's not been spoken about for so many years.

And what would you say his legacy is?

You know, how is that reflected in terms of maybe the ongoing influence of psychic news, maybe in Silver Birch's teachings?

52:57

So the legacy is significant just because Psychic News is still being published to this day.

Yes, there were periods of shaky ground for psych psychic news when it wasn't published and issues of ownership and what have you.

And so I think the fact that that's still being published is very significant for for Maurice Barbonell and his legacy.

53:18

In terms of Silver Birches teachings, yes, they are still spoken about in spiritualist churches, but it's of course it's those teachings that resonate with the medium or the speaker who's who's giving the talk in the church that day.

I just wish that Moore was spoken about Maurice Barbenelle himself and not just Silver Bunch.

53:38

So how do you see maybe Barbenelle's work being remembered and honoured within the spiritualist community today?

So sadly I don't think it is Michelle.

There is the Barbenelle Centre in the UK that is part of the DSNU and the Art of Finley College.

53:57

It's another kind of conference type centre there that's named after him, which is great.

And of course, as we've just said, Psychic News continues.

But I think we could do a better job in remembering Maurice Barbonelle.

He was spoken about, you know, on YouTube by the president of the SNU a few years ago and Tony Watson who worked with Barbonelle and is the current editor of Psychic News.

54:20

So they did speak about Barbonelle, but otherwise I think he'd been too easily forgotten compared to others who who went before him, like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Oliver Lodge, who's still spoken about more than Barbonelle.

And, you know, I think that's the real shame that there are so many people for whom that, you know, their contribution, their legacy, their life's work is maybe in the background.

54:45

They are the shadows of the story.

You know less about them if you like.

And I think it's fantastic that we can have these types of discussions around someone to raise their profile and, and what they did.

The amount of things that he did in his lifetime, the amount of decades he dedicated to spiritualism deserves to be remembered.

55:04

And I think it's incredible that you spent your time writing about him for your dissertation, you know, wanting to share his story.

And I know you have plans in the future to obviously do more on that.

And I don't know if you want to kind of share some of what your next steps are when it comes to what you're planning to do next when kind of talking about and sharing what you've learnt about Maurice's life.

55:29

Sure.

I mean, you know, and thanks to you Michelle for giving us this platform to talk about characters such as Maurice Barker.

Now this is fantastic.

So I've condensed 4 years of research into an hour conversation with you from my dissertation.

And now my, my plan is to turn that into a book so we can publish that and I can include parts of Maurice's life in there, such as some travelling he did, I found interesting sailing first class on a ship from New York to the Caribbean, which isn't really an academic dissertation topic, but I think it's fascinating for a book for those who want to know more about Barb and Alba Man.

56:06

And I want to be able to illustrate it more.

I did include about, you know, 10 to 15 images in my dissertation just to highlight some of the characters and events that I write about.

But I want to be able to add more to that and make it more visually appealing to everyone.

56:24

And that it's not just an academic test text, but it's more accessible by anyone who wants to learn more about it.

So what do you think was his most significant achievement in his lifetime?

It has to be the founding of Psychic News, something that, you know, as I talked about, he didn't jump at the chance to do it.

56:44

He saw, you know, three different mediums, had three different sittings to be sure it was the right path for him.

And it was because, you know, even up to his last day, you know, in July 1981, you know, when he died, he was still editing psychic news on his deathbed.

57:02

You know, he, he'd been away on vacation and come back and was unwell for a short while and was literally in bed on a Friday.

I think it was finishing up the latest edition of Psychic News when he, he, he passed away.

So yes, Psychic News has to be his most significant achievement.

57:20

And are there any misconceptions or lesser known facts about him that you would like to clarify or to highlight?

I think, you know, yes, he was antagonistic, but he did it for a reason and he believed in that reason and I respect him.

57:36

The sticking to his guns, if you like.

There was one time, Michelle, I didn't talk about, he was attacked by the wife of a medium he'd accused of being fraudulent with a horse whip in the street.

He was physically beaten for the work he was doing that you know, people don't know about.

57:55

And, you know, I think he was a good man, a private man.

He clearly loved his wife.

They were together for many years and they had a great partnership in that sense.

Sylvia sat with him during every seance next to him as he took his glasses off and went into trance.

58:13

And I just think I would love to have met Maurice Barbonelle and had a conversation with him.

So just to kind of bring things together, you know, what would you say maybe are some of the lessons that contemporary spiritualists could learn from Barbonelle's life and his work?

58:29

So I think we learn that you can evolve in your thinking, that you don't have to stick to the same thought in 10 years time that you had today as we see, you know, he evolved in his thinking.

And as we talked about with reincarnation, and I think it's speaking up, it's, you know, spiritualism is divided.

58:48

You know, people do look down on it because they don't believe it.

And so I think, you know, we have to advocate for what we believe in, especially as spiritualist churches.

You know, the population or the popularity is decreasing.

Churches are closing, so we need to We could learn from Barbenelle to ensure that this doesn't happen and that spiritualism as a religion keeps going.

59:12

Honestly, it's been such a privilege to chat with you and to to go into more depth about Maurice's life because he is so fascinating and the dedication he had for spiritualism is really rather remarkable.

He is a remarkable figure and like so many figures, so many people who are in the background, it's amazing when you know you can have that opportunity to speak to someone who has dedicated a portion of their life to finding out more about them and researching them and and raising their profile.

59:44

So thank you so much for giving up your time to come and chat with me.

Honestly, it's been such a privilege to chat with you and find out more about him.

My absolute pleasure, Michelle.

It's been great to to talk to someone interested in Maurice Barber.

Now, as you know, I've been sat with him on my own for for many years.

1:00:00

So to to be able to share, you know, these little bits I've been able to learn about him with you and your listeners have been amazing.

I really appreciate it.

And I will make sure to include in the podcast description notes as well on as well as on the website, you know, links to yourself, information about yourself if you like, so that people can follow along.

1:00:20

So they can keep updated about what you're doing in terms of this book, hopefully coming out and just obviously being able to see what you're up to in terms of your profile, etcetera.

And I'd obviously love to have you come back on the podcast again in the future, hopefully to talk about other individuals that again, I think deserve to have their stories also shared with people.

1:00:44

Because like we've kind of alluded to in this podcast, there are so many people part of this field for whom we don't know enough about them.

They are not spoken about enough.

And I think that's a shame.

So as I said, I hope you come back on to share your insights about other personalities in the future.

1:01:04

I will for sure.

I look forward to the invitation.

Honestly, thank you so much for your time and I will say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.