Opening Doors to the Paranormal: The Power of Diversity and Inclusion with Wheely Haunted

Michelle: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. First of all, thank you for taking a listen to this episode. Before we begin, I just want to throw out a few ways you can get involved and help support the show. We have a patreon page as well as an Amazon link, so hopefully if you're interested in supporting, you can find a way that best suits you. All of the links for those can either be found in the show notes or over on the website. Of course, just continuing to help spread the word of the show on social media, leaving reviews and sharing with friends and family is also a huge help. So thank you for all that you do.

Michelle: And now let's get started by introducing today's podcast or guest today we're delving into uncharted territory the convergence of two realms that have long remained separate the paranormal and the world of disability awareness and inclusivity. Joining us is a trailblazer, an advocate, and a voice for change in both of these domains. Jayne Mortimore, the visionary behind Wheely Haunted, is here to share her insights, experiences and profound thoughts on how disability can illuminate new avenues of paranormal exploration. Wheely Haunted is not just an organization, it's a movement. Driven by Jane's passion to make historical and heritage locations accessible to everyone, Jayne has embarked on a journey that challenges norms and dismantles barriers. Jayne's own extensive journey through two decades of chronic illness have brought her to this moment with a wealth of experience. As a respected investigator and advocate for accessibility, Jayne's voice is a beacon of change in an often unexplored intersection of the paranormal world. Today, we dive deep into how someone with a disability can offer unique perspectives and heightened awareness in the presence of the supernatural. With Jayne sharing experiences that shed light on the unseen connections between sensory differences and paranormal encounters through the lens of disability, we might unearth new layers of the paranormal that have long remained hidden from our sight. In fact, recent studies have begun exploring the intersection of autism and paranormal experiences. It's research like this that begins to open doors for further study and into a world of possibilities. Wheely Haunted advocates for disability awareness and inclusivity within the paranormal realm, we're challenged to reimagine investigations, tours and experiences. Small changes can ignite monumental shifts in how we approach the supernatural. As we delve into this conversation, let's remember that inclusion is not just about access, it's about embracing diversity and illuminating hidden perspectives. Jayne's journey is a testament to the fact that our limitations can indeed be pathways to profound awareness and connection. Get ready to expand your understanding and embrace a world of possibilities where today we're not just exploring the paranormal, we're showing how that we can embrace disability awareness and inclusivity and in doing so, shed light on the immense potential for further types of research. Without further ado, let's open some doors, bridge those gaps and empower one another to see with small changes how all can explore the mysteries that lie just beyond our reach.

Michelle: Hi, Jayne. Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Jayne Mortimore : Hi, thank you for having me. It's really nice to come on.

Michelle: I've got lots to chat with you about. I can't wait to get into some of that. Before we do, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself and about what got you interested in the paranormal?

Jayne Mortimore : Sure. Well, I run wheelie haunted, but I've always had a fascination with the paranormal, as far as I can think from I mean, very early age. But I guess I used to read books on the paranormal rather than sort of like storybooks or it'd be children's ghost storybooks, but I don't know, it's just a fascination with what else there may be. I'm a total believer, but I'm also totally sceptic, if that makes sense, in the sense that I believe there is more. We can't be the only existence. I think it'd be ignorant to think that. But equally, I think a lot of what we experience or get on this side of life, shall we say, is explainable.

Michelle: I think I'm with you. I think I started in pretty much the same way. I think it's something I was interested in from a really small age and just consuming books, consuming those types of stories and that material and then having an experience. All of those things combined to just kind of create the perfect storm, I would say, in terms of just a fascination and just wanting to kind of look at it a bit more openly with that mindset of, like you said, there just can't be just this. There has to be more than what we think and what we can explain. And it is that mystery and the allure of the unknown really, isn't it?

Jayne Mortimore : It really is. I mean, when you start thinking that generations, in fact, since the beginning of time or the beginning of man, people have worshipped what they would say is a god. We know at the beginning it was the sun, but then equally, we've had people worshipping or doing rituals for the dead for so long, there can't be nothing in it because we've gone sort of like technology based. Have we missed something? That's what always makes me wonder. And if you look into quantum theory and physics, there's so much that can be looked at and potentially theorized from that.

Michelle: So do you have any particular favorite types of locations to explore?

Jayne Mortimore : Cornwall is a major draw for me. I've lived in Cornwall for 26, 27 years now, and it's always been a place that fascinated me. We used to come here often when I was a child on holiday or a visit, because I grew up in Plymouth, which is only just across the Devon border. But yeah, I think Cornwall is there's so much to kind of unwrap in any place in Cornwall from its history, from looking at the potential ground that it's on. You know, granite has got quartz in it. We know quartz has been used in watches, in energy transference and sound. There's such a draw to Cornwall for me that the places that I love are in Cornwall. The first three places that I love are the Castle, right down in Bodmin Jail and Jamaica Inn. Bodmin Jail and Jamaica Inn are like 15 miles one way, 15 miles the other. So I'm really lucky to live close to the places that I adore.

Michelle: I think there is truly something magical about Cornwall, and I think it's because there are just so many layers to tease apart. Like you mentioned, you've got wonderful history, you've got beautiful landscape that just speaks of so many things in terms of, like, you were mentioning geology, closeness to the water. I mean, just so many things there. But then you've got this wonderful richness in terms of folklore, superstition, age old things that still kind of are there in the earth itself. And then, of course, this wonderful tradition of smuggling and ghost law and all of these other things that just, again, combine to make this wonderful mixture. This hedonistic type thing that really does, I think, attract people. Whether it's for something entirely different than the ghost hunting aspect, but I think throw that into the mix and it's like, yes, definitely something not to miss out on.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, I totally agree, because I think a lot of history comes from working backgrounds. I'm honest, we're talking about mining, fishing. Like you said, smuggling only happens because people are poor. That's where it all comes from, in my opinion. When you look at places such as Bath that was made typically for rich people, just to go on holiday or to go and live because it was poor at the time, it's two totally different histories. People grafted, people put their blood, sweat and tears into the ground, literally, in Cornwall. And I think that has such a know, even going to Jamaica in on the middle of the Got, it's surrounded just by moreland it's on its own. There's a few farms and cottages around it, sort of like, within miles, but it was a stop off for smugglers. They used to leave contraband there. There's alleged murders there because it was the only place there. Lots of things happened within the building and there it was never really meant for the rich people, I don't think. So all the working class kind of went there, collected there, lived and died there, had affairs, loved. It's such a vast history across Cornwall.

Michelle: And you're so lucky that you have it right on your doorstep to explore, really, because it is truly a beautiful part of the world that for anybody who hasn't experienced it at some point in their lifetime, really has missed out. I think, because it is mesmerizing. There's something about it that really does kind of feel like it still has that touching point with something from the know, these old traditions that in many ways we've moved on from and we've kind of got on the treadmill and we've raced away from. But some of the locations that we've got, like Cornwall, do really still feel like that there is somehow this connection to something older, whether it's because of the land, whether it's because of those elements of superstition of folklore, whatever it is, there's just something like that. I think, for me, definitely, I think.

Jayne Mortimore : The look of the land also helps because it is so untouched in many places. And obviously you've got the rugged cliffscapes. That is very romanticized, of course, when you look at Poldarc, it's very romanticized. And that is a perfect picture of how people perceive Cornwall still today and the traditions that are still here, I think because we're right down in the bottom of the pocket of the country, so to speak. Times are changing slower than what they are potentially up further up north. So you've still got a lot of cottage industry, you've got all the traditions, the folklore still kind of hangs around and it does make a huge difference. A lot of the buildings are still 1600 buildings. So it adds to that romanticism and mystery, in my opinion.

Michelle: Absolutely. So when you go kind of on your paranormal events and experiences and tours in all the various locations that you do, what would you say are kind of some of the hallmark things that you, as an investigator try? And do in terms of how you approach it, what you want to get out of it kind of your process. As an investigator, what would you say are the things that you try and go in to achieve and to behave like, really, as an investigator?

Jayne Mortimore : Sure, there's a two fold thing there. It depends whether I'm doing something for Wheely Haunted or whether I'm just investigating for myself. If I start with myself, then I'm normally with trusted friends, which makes a huge difference to any investigation. We generally don't use any equipment because there's too much outside influence that can manipulate pieces of equipment which could give false positives. So from my own personal experience, I tend just to go in with a camcorder, night vision camcorder, not because I think we're going to pick ghost up on it, just because we can see what's happening. We go in with respect. We don't necessarily ask questions. We do invite potential spirits that are there to come and join us. We normally talk about the location, we'll talk about its history. We'll have general discussion. And I find that way we tend to get more activity, or what would seem to be activity, than if we sat there and said, is there anyone there? Can you knock once for yes or twice for no? And you get back two knocks. I think it's a more intelligible way of investigating personally because it's doing something more natural which would potentially attract more people or more souls or spirits.

Michelle: And something that you said for me resonates and it's something I've spoken about on the podcast before. I don't have anything against Gadgets and different things that people use, I use them myself. But I do think there's something really powerful about stripping back from that sometimes and just using your own senses. And we can be very much distracted by other things happening and can miss things. So that's where really just being mindful that you as the investigator, from seeing, from hearing, from sensing and I think it's important that we remember that, that you are just as important as anything else that you might bring with you into the location. Really.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think at certain points when you're looking at Gadgets, you're concentrating so much on gadgets that you're losing the ability to look past that and you're losing the rest of the room or the rest of the wherever you are gadgets. I don't begrudge anyone using them. It's not something I like, not something I use, not something I normally hang around. If people are using if we're on sort of like a public event, it's down to personal preference. I think if people want to concentrate on a gadget in water, flashy, whatever come up, I think there's merit in that. I don't think it's necessarily something that isn't happening or isn't paranormal. I just prefer to get different types of evidence for myself mainly, which I find we get when we're just stripped back to nothing is either we feel ourselves we don't do kind of mediumistic stuff, but the body consents changes. Like when you walk into an office and you notice people have had an argument, we kind of feel those atmospheric changes and then what I like concentrating on is just audio. We seem to hear what would be audio phenomena, voices out of thin air and then we'll pick them up on the camera later. It's really interesting and I would definitely suggest that anyone try that method over time. I think you want to start building and tuning in more to potential noises that aren't there in the first place, like voices. Bodmin Jail is a classic example, one that we use, one that I go to often. And it's just you can be sat in sort of like the naval wing by yourself, which is now the recreated cell wing. And you just hear a voice act. I've done that several times and course it on camera like full sentences. It's just phenomenal.

Michelle: It is truly one of those experiences that if you have it happen to you, it is that moment where the hair stand up on the back of your neck and on your arms type thing because it can be so crystal clear and so out of the blue. And when there is nobody else around you, when it can be coming from nowhere else. It's just the jaw hitting the floor moment.

Jayne Mortimore : It is, you could be sat in the building by yourself or this part of the building by yourself. Know that everyone else is across the other side of the building, so there won't be noise, contamination and there's like a voice behind you or you'll hear something beside you. Sometimes it can be really scary, but most of the time it's just a case of wanting more. Now, don't get me wrong, I've said I've had it happen a few times. That's over many hundreds of hours of investigations. It's not like it happens every time you go, but it does happen. And that, to me, is worth waiting for.

Michelle: Yeah. And I echo that. It doesn't happen every single investigation. It doesn't happen three or four times on an investigation. It happens once in a blue moon, but when it does, it stands out. It's memorable because it's genuine. And I think that's the difference. And like you said, it can just appear out of nowhere, close by, in the room, just outside the room that you're in. And yeah, you just don't forget it. You really don't.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. One of the best pieces of evidence I've got is we asked for footsteps again at Bobman Jail. The place is just absolutely steam on the activity at the minute. My friend and I were sat in the long room. We'd been left there. It's not quite the long room now, the cell room, then in the naval wing. We were sat there and we were asking we had some footsteps, didn't catch them the first time. Got this on video and then we say, well, come on, then, walk towards here. We get footsteps from one end to the other. It sounds like the bottom of an old wood shoe on, sort of like a hard floor. And it's the most phenomenal noise I've heard for ages. It was just like one end to the other. And I've got that on camera on one of my videos, which I'll send you a link to later.

Michelle: Oh, yeah, I'll take a listen.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, it's incredible.

Michelle: It is, honestly. Just like I said, I echo what you said. It's one of those things that you just don't forget and your brain tries to rationalize it, you try and find an explanation for it, but when you really can't, it's just something that you keep falling back on and remembering. And one of the best examples that I ever had was, sadly, at a location that has since been torn down because it was so derelict, but it was an old asylum and I mean, when I say it was run down, it was practically falling apart and going into this one room. And it had been used for very many things over the years, one of which was during the First World War. It was a place where the soldiers would go to convalesce to be treated and clear as a day. Clear as a day. It was stand by your beds.

Jayne Mortimore : Really.

Michelle: And I can only liken it to sounding like my father, who is ex military. It was that very crisp, curt, clear direction that sounded very military. And it really did fit with the kind of the history and the story. And where we were was where the soldiers were actually sent and were staying in this part of the hospital. And so it all just fit. And it was the only thing I heard in terms of auditory phenomena that night. We tried desperately to try and have other things come through, and it was almost just like this echo of the past, something replaying that we'd heard in this moment, and then it was gone. But it was just standout. It was amazing, really amazing.

Jayne Mortimore : Incredible. See, but that leads on to another question. Is it intelligent or is it, like you just said, an echo of the past? Is it stone take theory? And you're just there at the right moment, at the right time, in the right conditions. I think that part we will never truly understand unless we actually get to the point of proving the existence of an afterlife or what the energy is we communicate with or whatever it is we communicate with or we think we communicate with. I don't think we'll ever understand, really, until we prove it. And will we ever prove it? I don't know, because I don't know if we'll ever understand it.

Michelle: And I also think it's one of those areas that even if you feel like you're getting somewhere, I think you just open up more questions. I think there's just so much to this that it really does. I think it's one of those areas that I do think needs so much more study and so many more people from cross fields, cross sciences, just coming together, but sadly, they don't. And I think the result is that we just end up with something that ends up missing some of that kind of knowledge and expertise from different areas. Really?

Jayne Mortimore : I think so. I think, though, the way that the paranormal field is at the minute, it's very laughed upon for various reasons. And I think until that kind of paranormal community can be taken seriously, everyone included, not just one pocket or one part of the paranormal community, I think until we can show ourselves as totally being serious and all on the same page, nothing will ever happen. Because scientists will never want to put their name to what's going on, potentially because it's not a professional community at the moment, in my opinion.

Michelle: No. And I think that's where we as investigators, as researchers, can elevate ourselves no matter what other people are doing. If we have the attitude that we want to project, that we want it to be like, then I just think that's a starting point and a starting place for something positive, really.

Jayne Mortimore : I think within the last two years, that has really started to happen. There is sort of like one sect of the paranormal that is really starting to push forward and take things more seriously and want the world to take it more seriously as well. There's some really good investigators out there.

Michelle: I mean, I know that you've become part of this, but the UK paranormal Society I think is a fantastic addition to the community. And I think it kind of hits a brief and hits something that was missing because we've got ASSAP, we've got the Society for Psychological Research, but there's that bit in the middle of well, who do people go to? If for this reason and if for this reason, whether it's location, needing support and guidance, whether it's a team and investigating, wanting some hands on practical resources, it's kind of bringing together all of these different things under one roof and I think at the same time giving a very positive model of what the paranormal field could look like.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, there's a lot of people with a lot of disciplines in the UKPS, definitely, and I think the message that they're trying to push forward, not only the message, but the help that they're offering individuals heritage locations is huge. The guidance that's being given for teams, individuals and heritage locations and working alongside them can make a massive difference. And I think it's going to be organizations like this that really raise the profile of the paranormal community. So I think it's definitely needed.

Michelle: And I know that it's something that you've become involved with because of what you're doing with Wheely Haunted. And before we kind of dive into all of that a bit more, do you want to just tell everybody what Wheely Haunted is, what it's about, and what your personal aims and kind of mission for doing this is? Because I think it's a fantastic, very much needed aspect. I'm so glad you're doing it and I kind of just want to make people aware of it, really.

Jayne Mortimore : Thank you. Yeah, well, I have had chronic illness for nearly 20 years now and it's had a huge impact on my life, my family life, with my children, obviously my husband. But obviously I've had this passion all my life for the paranormal, so I've been investigating. It become more difficult and more difficult to mobilize because of the lack of movement in my legs and the exhaustion that come with it. So I am now an ambulatory wheelchair user, which is somebody who can still walk, but somebody who needs to use a wheelchair. Most of the time when I'm out, I use a wheelchair, I use a power chair, because if you see me, I'm six foot tall, six foot wide. It's not fair to make someone to push me in a manual wheelchair, so I use a power wheelchair, so I'm independent as well. It means that I can do what I want, I don't have to ask somebody to push me here, there, whatever. So basically I'm at the point now where there's a lot of locations which I can't get into because of access. Now, Wheely Haunted was kind of born because of that. And I was actually looking around for investigations one day and I come across Bodmin Jail and it says accessible. So I booked in on one of their ghost hunts and went down, and that's where it all kind of really started. My mission is now to find accessible locations for everyone in the paranormal and wants to be involved in the paranormal. Whether it's hobby, whether you want to do it as a job or you run an event or you're a location which hires out to teens, I'm looking for accessible locations to recommend, to go and review, to show locations that people have previously thought aren't accessible actually are with just one or two small changes like a portable ramp. If certain places have portable ramps, or they had extra chairs along the corridors, long corridors or quiet areas for people to kind of go and take five, it could make all the difference. Obviously you've got stuff for visual hearing impairment and it kind of goes a lot deeper. But that's what I'm about. It's about looking at different locations, bigging them up for being accessible, even if you've got the likes of certain locations, such as Woodchester Mansion is one that I use an example with quite often. It's a huge place. Now you've got a step to get into the access at the back where all the investigators go in. If they had a ramp, I haven't been there for years, so I don't know whether they do or whether they don't. If they had a portable ramp going on how it was a few years ago, all the ground floor would be accessible to someone in a wheelchair, someone with mobility issues, if they had a few chairs up along corridors. It could be a magnificent location for people with mobility issues or access needs in total. It's just something that could be opened up really easily and get a lot more people involved in paranormal. A lot of people are afraid to go to investigations. From who I've spoken to, they're afraid to go to investigations because they can't stand long, they can't walk long distances. They fear that they might have a meltdown halfway through because the change in atmosphere, lights on, lights off, people screaming, people not taking things seriously or being the total opposite way, just so much going cool off could make a huge difference away from, say, the base room. People that have come to me and said, well, I'm not sure I'd manage it. After looking at locations that I've actually been to, they're like, yeah, I think I could do that. And on the back of that, a few have actually booked investigations at Bodmin jail and I believe at Jamaica Inn too. So they've got into the game of doing something that they love and want to explore more. And that is what it's really about for me. So it's amazing.

Michelle: And personally, I think it's a win win situation because I think you're right. I think in a lot of cases there's a fear of finding out, not necessarily wanting to go, just in case, because there's nothing more embarrassing and difficult to deal with than being somewhere and suddenly facing that difficulty when there's lots of people. You don't want to kind of stand out, do you? And so you can kind of just completely take yourself out of that situation and just not get involved to begin with and you're missing out. But likewise, so are these locations, because they don't necessarily know what it is that they can do to make the event more accessible. And sometimes it's something small.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. Like I was saying, I'm in a position at the moment where I've kind of advised a couple of locations and advising a couple of locations about things that they can change simply cheaply. Again, just adding more seats. Ramps make a huge difference. And that can be tiny, tiny costs from less than 100 pounds, but it just opens up history, heritage and these locations up to a lot more people. Tiny, tiny things can make huge differences. Big fonts on text that people have got to read or anything like that, makes a huge difference.

Michelle: I think it is something that still very much can lag when it comes to people, just if they don't have someone that they know that has a disability, or if they themselves have never been in that position where they've had a difficulty with something. I think there can be an attitude of just not being aware, not through intentional means, by any stretch of the imagination, but just we don't necessarily think about it. And so when these locations are offering something, it's not forefront of their mind, but it really does sometimes mean just having the right person come along with the right set of advice. And like you mentioned, sometimes it's just as simple as having extra chairs where the access point is and how that can change. And it can make such a big difference. And like you said, it then opens up a location to more people. And that's something really positive for everybody, because nothing should be excluded from somebody, nobody should be missing out on that opportunity to explore somewhere. And we have a lot of locations in this country, let's be honest, that are very, very old, that can be difficult for people to access. Yeah, it really does just mean rethinking some things to make parts of it accessible, to see how things could be adapted. And again, just opening up to more people. And again, like I said, that's not a bad thing for anyone if it means that they're getting. More people come through, then that's more people coming through, paying for that event. It's supporting that location to continue. It's going from strength to strength. And for the person that's suddenly having this world opened up to them, they're not missing out on something wonderful either.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely, I totally agree. I think a lot of the problem comes with opinion that is just handed down and handed down and handed down. Sorry, we can't change, we can't do this, we can't do that. I wouldn't necessarily call it defined ignorance, although there is some type of ignorance involved with it. Just by not loaning or opening the mind a little bit more to look but then you don't need to do that. Why would you? The average person doesn't need to consider if they've got a healthy family, they don't need to consider potentially someone that does have a disability of any type. It's not something that you would naturally consider. I don't think so. Making awareness of it is something huge and it is opening minds. Events, companies are the same. We can't take people on location because we can't change. Well, yes, actually you can. Taking a portable ramp, taking some fold up chairs in the boot of your car, if you're able, of course makes a huge difference. You can open that event up to more people. But equally, like you said, it's about changing opinion. That's the huge thing. And kind of really pushing forward people's thinking. That's the major thing. I think, and just an example, I approached a location that had opened up fairly recently last year and said what's your access? Do you have any events? This is what I do. And the first thing they said to me is no, you won't be able to come because you've got to do some walking and blah, blah, blah. There was an assumption that I was in a wheelchair, that I did whatever. I don't really know this person. I don't think they really know me that well. So I don't know that they knew that I was already using a power chair at that point. But there was an automatic assumption that I wouldn't be able to go. There wasn't questions like well can you walk? Can you do this? Or this could be the case, but we can change stuff to try and help you. There was none of that. It was just an immediate no, we can't do it. If we can change that thought pattern just to open them up, let us know what your needs are and we'll see if we can help. That would make a huge difference. Definitely within the Equality Act 2010 Equality Act. It does state that companies, businesses have to make reasonable adjustment if they can by law. So I think a lot of what people are doing is actually unlawful now and it's time to make them aware of this. So opening up all these doors could be a major thing on many levels.

Michelle: And I also think it adds to the richness of the investigation, if I'm honest. And again, it's something that they're missing out on by possibly excluding certain people from those investigations and those locations.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. I've got some guidance going up on my website soon from Alison from Derbyshire Haunted Chronicles, I think she's called Lovely Lady. She actually works in kind of special needs and she's done me a load of guidance on people with kind of neurodivergent tendencies and listed things to look out for, for people on events with that. But also the rich side of what they could bring to an investigation, how they may perceive things, how they look at things, how they can help, how extra vigilant, say, someone with ADHD could be. There's lots of things that can be taken into account and give that richness to the investigation, like you said. So bringing more types of people into an investigation, not just different cultures, but different abilities, can make it that much more energetic.

Michelle: I think it's true to life. And if we think about it, when we investigate a place, we're investigating a place that had real living people, and that's all walks of life, all walks of experiences, all walks of abilities or disabilities, I mean, just so many different things. And we want who comes into those spaces to represent that, don't we?

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely.

Michelle: So that it becomes something more open and, like you said, more energetic for something to then happen and to possibly happen in terms of the activity.

Michelle: To celebrate heading into the spookier season autumn nights, howling wind and freezing rain, Halloween spookiness in the dark depths of winter. Haunted History Chronicles will be posting daily podcasts on patreon on all tiers over there, as well as the usual additional items offered. Signing up now will gain you access to these, as well as all previous archived content. For as little as one pound, you could be getting hundreds of podcasts to enjoy writing source material and more, and know that you are contributing and helping the podcast to continue to put out more content. You can find the link in the episode Description Notes as well as on the Haunted History Chronicles website or social media. So why not come along to enjoy a rich web of accounts perfect for this season dark tales of corpses, ghosts, folklore, Christmas and Halloween, macabre traditions and connections, and a whole lot more. And now let's head back to the podcast.

Jayne Mortimore : There's far more relatable connectivity, I suppose would be the word, if you've got someone with with different abilities. There's often reports in locations of people with special needs or people that have had injuries and they're then disabled for the rest of their lives. Historically, there's far more illness, death, injury in older times than what there is now. So it would seem to make it more relatable if you've got that variation of people within an investigation potentially why when I do an investigation, I get these energies trying to kind of speak to us. I don't know. It is something that we thought of and something that I think does bring some bearing on an investigation. When you do get some results and.

Michelle: I think something you touched upon earlier is so true and so under researched, is this aspect that well, do some of the specific types of disabilities have, does that make them more receptive to certain aspects of phenomena? For example, someone has hearing loss. Does that mean they're able to hear other things that we can't, more sensitive to other things that we can't? Can they pick up on other stuff? And I think there's a kind of a growing body of research that's taking place at the moment about people who are actually neurodivergent and how there is a growing awareness that actually something about their brain makeup makes them more receptive to types of experiences, phenomena when investigating. And again, that's fascinating. So why are we excluding people from that mix of investigating simply by not making it more accessible? It's such a shame, really.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. There's many things we could go off many routes talking about this. I think the major thing would be that I know there is an investigator who does events that actually takes a group of deaf people out and because they're deaf, they will feel the walls, feel the floor, feel the beams of an overlocation and they sense different things. Which is amazing because obviously I would imagine someone with deafness is more aware of touch and the other four senses. So because they're feeling different things, it automatically draws something different to an investigation and a new lead and a different way to go. And I really think that's major going back to it's a really big subject and it probably deserves a show of its own. Not from me, because I'm not an expert by any means, but when you look at people with bipolar schizophrenia, people that hear voices in their head, it's an age old discussion now, I'm sure, but are these people actually mediumistic and hearing voices or are they really having some type of episode within their mind? I think there's two different ways of thinking of that. Obviously yes or no, but I know personally from a friend who had bipolar issues, she would hear a lot of voices. She actually married a lady who was her parents were mediums and it explained a lot of things for her. She's actually come off medication, settled down and seems to communicate with what she believes is spirit, rather than being depressed with anxiety and having a lot of psychological issues. By understanding that side of whatever is going on or potentially going on, it seems to have helped her. I understand that it can be dangerous for a lot of people in a lot of situations. Just for my friends. I mean, I've known her since school, it really helped her situation. So if someone in an investigation come in like that and they were hearing things, what exactly are they hearing? Do we, as investigators, start going down that channel and then looking, well, are they communicating with the spirits in this place? What actually is happening? There's a whole thing there that needs to be explored, and whether people that are diagnosed with these potentially psychological issues as to whether they can actually help in an investigation.

Michelle: I just think something, again, that you said just resonates so much, and it's to do with how we investigate. And I'm sure you've been on plenty of investigations where it's almost a carbon copy of something that you've experienced somewhere else. And again, I'm not knocking that. But I do think there is something very powerful about trying different things, setting up different scenarios as test subjects, as experiences to see what happens, why we don't do more of that, and why we simply replicate the same thing over and over and over again and yield the same results. Baffles me, because if we just take this subject alone, you could have a really powerful experiment with somebody who is deaf, with somebody that is hearing and comparing, seeing differences, taking what you get from that alone as evidence, as a discussion point.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely.

Michelle: That is far more interesting to me than simply sitting in a room calling out, is there anybody there? Not once for yes, twice for no. There's something more investigative about that, that is telling you something, that is giving you other questions to ponder even further. And I think that's sometimes the steps that we miss, we forget that part of why we do this is this love of trying to explore the unknown. Well, we're not going to do that if we don't actually go on a journey to explore. And so, yeah, I think we're missing a trick. I think we're missing out on something by not including other people where we can actually see and compare differences.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. I would agree with that. I mean, there's a huge psychological aspect to the paranormal. You take into account something like the Philip experiment, where this was actually explained to me by Karin from the Jamaica In Team, a very good friend of mine. The Philip experiment, where people talk about something that was never really there, and then it manifests into something because potentially the thought pattern that people have, that in itself is a huge experiment. If you've got different people in a place of different abilities and you tell them that there's something there that isn't necessarily there, how would that also affect them? That would be a majorly interesting experiment for me, for anyone, really. It was something we were going to do recently, actually. We were going to set up an experiment. We've got a location, a research location, but we actually went into this location that's never been investigated before. We weren't expecting nothing, and the first night we were there, three of us saw this dark black figure stood in the kitchen and we were just dumbfounded. So it's kind of put that experiment on home. But from that, the actual experiment, we wanted to bring in a variety of people just to explore how it would affect different people at different times and kind of do different experiments. Like you were talking about bringing in the different abilities of people and seeing how it affected things, what they would get, what they wouldn't get. It's not necessarily something we put on the internet until we had solid findings, but it was certainly something that we were looking into until we experienced the stuff that we have in this little location.

Michelle: Oh, gosh, again, that just sounds so much more exciting and truly investigative. And like I said earlier, I think that's the stuff that I think we need to be more, doing more. And again, this is why I think what you're doing is so powerful on so many different levels, because not only are you giving advice and there is a support to enable locations to see how they can make these small changes, but you're this really positive driving force of actually we can do this. And then at the same time, I think there's this real opportunity to just try something different, be a bit more open ourselves. And yeah, I think it's very refreshing all round, to be honest. I hope it's something that I see, certainly.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, it's an amazing thing and I think it's something that can be pushed forward with through many voices, through many teams. There are teams that are actually starting to raise awareness on accessibility, in putting it within their accessible location, on their write ups, in really bigging up the accessibility for everyone that can get to a location. It's a huge thing. I think another thing that I really push for this is the historical side of things, because people in wheelchairs still like history, like people that are not in wheelchairs or can walk around and such like, but they can't always access heritage locations. Whilst some locations may not want to do paranormal stuff, I'm still looking at locations, heritage locations that I could potentially help just by a few small changes for people to get in, because nearly every old place has a ghost story with it. Whether it's true or not is another matter. But keeping history alive is a huge part of the paranormal. Without history, we wouldn't have paranormal as far as I can see it. So keeping that side alive is really important. But going back to the UKPS, the UK Paranormal Society, and the work we're doing, obviously I'm advising about accessibility and that side of things, but there will be times where I'll come together and work with some of the team about keeping real history. Whether experiments being done on investigations, like, we were talking about having one deaf person, one here in person, seeing what they get. History is important and valuable to keep, as it should be. I know that's kind of gone off on a tangent on the subject, but I think it's really important and it needs to be mentioned on every podcast every time somebody goes live, because it's not. History has changed really quickly because of the Internet. And you've got like the likes of people calling places the demon house because they had demon come through an app or on a radio or however they got this word demon and then it changes the history of a place. It potentially makes people want to go and visit it or not visit it. So I think keeping that history alive is really important. You think you've got somebody in a location and they think there's a demon there, this person can't run because they use a walking stick or they've got mobility issues and someone shapes demon, everyone's going to shoot and leave this person by themselves. It does have a knock on impact into kind of the accessibility and how things run within an investigation.

Michelle: Oh, gosh, I completely agree. And I think it's something that I kind of shout very loudly almost in every podcast because I think our history is so rich and to distort it and to change it and to lose it in some way is sacrilegious, to be honest. And I do see it as so combined with the paranormal. And it's about teasing these things apart and really understanding this very rich picture that a location can offer in terms of how the history and the story of that location has evolved. And by knowing that, by understanding that, I think it makes the experience when you go in and an investigator a far better one, personally.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. Because the prime example is Judge Jeffries and the Skirrid. I mean, it's the most famous example, probably, but if you don't look at the history properly, are you investigating properly? That's the thing.

Michelle: I mean, if you listen to every location that reports that he was there at some point, that man was everywhere. He got around according to every website and every bit of thing that's published on the internet. And like you said, it's something that once it's out there, it's very difficult to actually take away again. It kind of starts feeding itself and that's very problematic because it can change whole narratives.

Jayne Mortimore : I think that's where comes in the difference between ghost hunting and investigating, if I'm honest. Because although both terms mean the same thing, ghost hunting seems to be a far less serious terminology, for starters. And ghost hunting is different. You're going out hunting for ghosts than paranormal research or paranormal investigating, where you are looking to do these different experiments and kind of push the boundaries on what you're doing rather than just going for the jump scare, which is what I see ghost hunting as, although I use both terms for the same thing. I think there's a huge difference from ghost hunting teams and people who want to investigate. I think that also has a huge factor in what fake history hits the Internet. Because if you've got a ghost hunting team that are looking for the jump scares, go out and use phone apps that are preloaded with negative words associated with the paranormal, or you've got somebody that's going there to look at the real history, do different experiments to try and connect. They're worlds apart. And I think that makes a huge difference.

Michelle: Oh gosh, completely. And again, I think there's something positive happening now. I think where, like you mentioned earlier, there is this other kind of thing being pushed forward which I think could bring about some really wonderful, absolutely changes, maybe just rethinking of things, which I think will only be beneficial. And one of them is also what you're doing. I think it's hugely needed for so many different reasons. I think it will enrich what's happening massively and I think it's very beneficial for the locations and for people who are interested in this to not be excluded. And I just think it's fantastic. Like I said to you earlier, I think it's something we all need to be mindful of in terms of how we communicate with people around this topic. And if we just think about social media platforms and how inaccessible they are and how much of the discussion around the paranormal now takes place on Twitter or somewhere else and yet people may not be able to access it, well, what a shame. How terrible is it that that is something that still happens today, that not everybody can have the same opportunity that we do, which is to just simply be part of that conversation.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. Even I have trouble with certain types of social media because parts of Facebook can't be turned into dark theme. It's really difficult for people with visual problems like myself to read kind of black text on a white background. I find that really difficult. And when I'm even writing on my page for various things, putting up new posts for people to see, to do with really haunted, it's really difficult because it won't change into a dark mode, which is a huge issue. Now, if people have got older devices or they've got computers that are older, they may not necessarily be able to use any reader software to help them on any case. And yeah, I think people are missing out on a lot because accessibility doesn't just stop with the physical body. In terms of putting up a ramp, putting a chair here, website accessibility is just as important as physical accessibility.

Michelle: I think it's beginning to end. I think it's how we investigate, how we communicate, how we get together, how we talk about it. It's just rethinking from beginning to end what it is that we're doing and what we're putting in. Yeah, I think it is a bit of a cultural shift, but it is small steps, it's small changes, and it's just being more mindful. It's asking the question. And I've got to say, I think sometimes asking the question can then yield really fantastic things like we were mentioning. It opens up other opportunities for bringing in other voices, it brings in other opportunities for investigations. And I also think it shakes and changes things up a bit in a positive way. I mean, we mentioned earlier about what would it be like if somebody is less able bodied and they're in a location that's dark, and if people get frightened by something and start to move away quickly, how they're kind of left in a vulnerable position. I have to ask, why is it that we always do investigations in the dark?

Jayne Mortimore : Exactly.

Michelle: Yeah, it's because it adds to the scare factor. But let's be really honest, a lot of people experience paranormal activity in the daytime. It's when these locations were being used by people in the day. So why they only have to happen at nighttime when it's dark is ridiculous. Why don't we have more opportunities to investigate during the daytime when it would make it more accessible in some cases for people, whether they are able bodied or not, whether they are seeing or not, for some people, they just don't necessarily want to go somewhere when it's dark. It's actually opening it up to more people, period. It's kind of dark.

Jayne Mortimore : I totally agree. If you're like me these days and you're a lightweight, obviously, in the metaphorical term, we have investigated during the day quite often we investigate with the lights on, not because we're scared, but because we don't see necessarily the point of switching lights off. There's no point, as you said, and I can reiterate people or spirits that I said spirits on the other side now, they lived like us during the day. There were obviously night workers, like there are night workers now. But most people lived during the day and did their things during the day and in the evening they didn't wake up and suddenly think, right, I'm going to go and clean my kitchen at 03:00 a.m. In the morning and you might get assigned at 03:00 a.m. In the morning, pan clattering and say, Woodchester Mansion, it's out of place. Was it really that that you heard? Is it just your mind perceiving that yeah, it makes more logical sense for me to investigate during the day on many levels, health and safety for the illnesses that I've got, for my sight issues, but because people are around during the day, the only downside to that is that obviously you've got more noise contamination. If you're in a setting like a town, you can have more noise contamination. That's the only downside that really comes with it, I think. But I think if opinions can change, whether you're looking for the scare which comes to ghost hunting my mind or whether you're an investigator, it does make a difference. Most apparitions and research that I've done have been seen in daylight hours. People see someone walking by the window, or they see somebody walking down the street, or somebody appear in an old manor house in the middle of the day. They don't see I mean, although things are seen overnight, most reports seem to happen during daylight hours.

Michelle: It's an opportunity missed thinking about. You mentioned the Jamaica Inn. They're obviously extremely good at cataloging and recording so much data about things that are reported at the inn. And because of that, because they really do take it as an investigation, it means that they have a real body of evidence behind. If other locations did something similar whereby you had investigations at different times of the day, just that alone, the data that that yields in terms of active times, active seasons, whether there is a pattern for kind of paranormal phenomena that is so much rewarding again than simply always doing it at the same time and never changing the control. Let's be really honest. Again, it comes back to what we were saying. It's about doing things slightly differently, testing things, asking different questions. That, again, provides you with other sets of information and questions to kind of warrant further study and thinking.

Jayne Mortimore : Definitely.

Michelle: But we're only ever doing the same thing, only ever going at the same times of the night. We're only going to get the same types of things coming back to us. I just like to see something different. And again, this is where I think when you have other people's voices coming into the mix saying, well, have you thought about how this excludes this group of the population? What about if you did it here? Suddenly it's opening it up, and by opening it up, I think we yield other things. And I can only see that as a very positive thing. I really can.

Jayne Mortimore : Absolutely. I think part of the problem lays with paranormal TV, mainstream TV, because it's all the same things. Obviously, they've got to make their viewing capacity and numbers and whatever. So they're about the scares, they're about nighttime, they're about the jump scares and everything like that. But if you get programs on the mainstream TV that showed this side of serious investigating, trying to change patterns, trying to change pushbang reads further and further and open up different types of investigating, different types of cataloging, then I think people would start to see the wider picture, so to speak. Not just going out, seeing something and running away kind of mentality. Because a lot of people kind of still sit in that. Even if that was to happen, say, like a local location to me, that is accessible, I've got my eye on at the moment, but if I could set up something there during the day, they don't say it's haunted at the minute. Some people have kind of suggested that there is something there. And some people have never had experiences. So I'm just keeping my eye on the location at the minute. If they could set something up during the day at different times, or even if when they close or when they got quiet periods, it could make all the difference. To know whether these people have actually experienced something, whether it could be recaptured, recreated, rather than just doing events after dark, which they do occasionally, very rarely, but they do, it would make all the difference. Even with Jamaica Inn Bodmin jail. The torture at Bodmin Jail didn't happen at night, it happened during the day. Those spikes of negative energy that seemed to sit within the granite halls happened during the day. It didn't really happen at night. The moments at night were when people were sat in their cells in these small six by fours, and the thoughts were there. But different things happened during the day. Same with Jamaica Inn was a farm, then it was at some point Temperance House, then it was a cafe. That all happened during the day as well. So even if they could set up areas of points for investigators to come in, even if they hired out at those points, it could make a huge difference to said activity and reporting of activity like room three and four, the TV come on during the day, or the tap ten. I don't know anything like that. If they could open those rooms up in between guests leaving and guests arriving, it could produce yield so many more results.

Michelle: Well, I just think from a very selfish position in terms of wanting that information as well. Just think about evidence that is missed that we may never hear about simply because it's just never open at that particular time.

Jayne Mortimore : Exactly.

Michelle: That's just sacrilegious. I mean, who knows what could be going on? And it's just not being seen because it's not being utilized in that manner for that time of the day and.

Jayne Mortimore : Kind of going off of that as well. It could open up investigating to people with disabilities that can't do overnight or don't want to do overnight. It could open up little pockets of investigating for people that can only manage one or 2 hours at a time. Likewise, it could be something huge. I think what you suggested could be onto something there.

Michelle: But again, this is where I just think it takes discussion. And one of the fabulous things that I think you're doing is you're opening yourself up to saying to people, come and ask me, pick my brains, let's talk about it. Don't be afraid to say, well, this is our location, what could we do? It's a dialogue. And I think the same. It could be true of how people handle people coming and saying to them, well, I have this difficulty, can I still come? Instead of no, let's just start rethinking how we ask. Well, this is what we're currently providing. What do you think you might need to make that more accessible? This is where you're coming in almost as a bridge for that communication and that understanding, and I think it's fantastic. And not only for the paranormal side of things, but you're also working with Access Cornwall, and so you're really kind of putting yourself out there for so many different projects and organizations to support them, to make heritage history, the paranormal, all of these more accessible for people, which is phenomenal. I don't often mention her on the podcast, but my mum is terminally ill. For years she's had disability issues where she's been very frail. Getting her out of the house can sometimes be very, very challenging. And she has a wheelchair, but even with a wheelchair, it's not necessarily easy to take her places in terms of parking, in terms of getting in and out of cars, how you get into a building. It is so difficult for individuals and for families sometimes to simply get out of the front gate. And so for someone else to take up that mantle and say, this is important for the people that want to enjoy this, this is about giving them experiences, memories, restoring their positive thinking, maybe helping with depression, their mental health. You're opening windows, you're opening doors, you're opening places, you're just breathing a bit of life into something for other people. And we need that, I think. And so, as I said, I think it's phenomenal that you're doing this, Jane. It's so needed. And I can't wait to see more and more people taking this up and kind of coming to you and seeing what can happen, really, what they can do.

Jayne Mortimore : Thank you. Well, I'm hoping that a team can grow. I mean, it's me at the minute. I've got Alison writing for me. Who is Derbyshire Haunted Chronicles. I do apologize if I've got that wrong. Alison, she's writing for me at the minute. I really want to expand on what I'm doing, get more people involved, get more voices involved, especially the bigger voices within the paranormal, and really hope we can push messages out. Because not allowing people on investigations is not only kind of really so destroying for people with disabilities. There is a law against discrimination, of course, and reasonable adjustment and such like is a huge thing. And really pushing that out there and getting people thinking about disability awareness is huge. We are now in 2023 2012, there was a huge push in the UK on disability awareness because of the Olympics and obviously the Paralympics. Paralympics really seemed more popular than the Olympic event itself. So it really started changing things back then and after, obviously the 2010 Equality Act. Disability equality act. We're ten years later and we're still stuck. Or twelve years later, 13 years later, we're still struggling with it. It doesn't make sense. Why? Because technology has come so far, so quick that we should be able to just kind of put it into place. It should be at the forefront of every mind. Every website should be accessible by law in the UK. Ramps, quiet areas, large text, it's all important for people with hearing problems, sight problems, mobility problems, and there really needs to be a dive by everyone, whether you're a heritage location, whether you're an events company, whether you're a figure that lots of people follow within the paranormal. Contact me and we'll see if we can work something out to kind of push out this message. It would be great to have ambassadors who can really put a spin on things and potentially either work with, advise or arrange something where we can kind of open up this huge gap between abled body people and disabled people. It's huge. And the thing is to remember is that disability doesn't just stop at people who are in a wheelchair or cannot walk far. Disability is so much more. It's chronic illness, it's terminal illness, it's neurodivergence, it's as we said, depression, anxiety. It's so much more than just seeing someone in a wheelchair or just seeing someone that can't do something. Because although one ability is there's ability that somebody can't do, there's going to be something that they can do that I can guarantee that not a lot of other people can do in terms of people in a wheelchair may have more time and experience in front of a screen because that's all they can do. So they're more experienced on website building or their influence, their podcast is, whatever it may be, there's ways to just push things out there and make the paranormal an equal footing for everybody. And that's my goal. I know I'm kind of preaching, but that really is my goal.

Michelle: I'm singing it with you. I'm literally singing it with you. I just think yes to all of that. I think it's very important. Nobody should be excluded from anything at this point of the time that we're in. And the fact that we haven't really moved forward enough, I think is quite shameful, to be honest.

Jayne Mortimore : It's slow going, but it's time to really kick into turbo. It's time to do it. It's time that people at equal opportunity inclusivity, regardless of disability, gender, what you look like, who you are, your culture, whatever, as long as you respect people, no one really cares. I think in this day and age, we've all got to be in it together and I think it's still lacking a lot.

Michelle: And can I just say, this stuff benefits able bodied people as well who take part in an investigation. Because I'm going to say it now. I've been on plenty of an investigation where it's the middle of the night and everybody's starting to get tired and you're doing in an investigation how you can say it is controlled and it is without problems. When people are getting tired and they're on shaky legs and they're starting to sway and experience things. Just think a few chairs here and there, how it means that that investigation can then go so that it is, I would say, in a more controlled manner, where you can say, well, it wasn't tiredness affecting how they were standing and how they were feeling at that point because they're more comfortable. It's something that can really benefit, I think, an investigation period for anybody that's involved in it. And again, I just think it's sometimes just this cultural shift in thinking that it has to be one way all of the time.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, I would agree, totally agree. It benefits everybody in every way because, like you were saying, people getting tired, it does make a difference, it makes a huge difference. And I think bringing forward investigations as we were talking also kind of helps because not everyone wants to stay up till 304:00 in the morning. You do start to lose your senses at that time in the morning and I don't care who you are, whether you're a night worker or not, there's a lull in the middle of the night where you need to rest your body saying, come on, it's time to shut down. And you could be missing potential good evidence. Definitely, yeah, absolutely.

Michelle: Oh, Jane, I think you're fantastic, I really do. And I'm going to make sure to put all of the details on the website and in the podcast description so that people can find you really easily and come and see what you're doing, but also, if they've got a location themselves come and find you. If they maybe got an expertise in an area that might be of interest, if they got things that they could talk to you about and share with you, hopefully, even if it's only one person, if you think you've got something that you can bring or add or to ask, there's an opportunity here for someone to reach out. Really? And I hope they do.

Jayne Mortimore : Yeah, I'm really hoping so. It doesn't matter how small, how big, whether you think something's stupid or not, I can guarantee you it's not. It probably isn't something that I haven't already thought of in terms of question wise. I do go through a lot with disability. My mobility is up and down at the minute. So whatever your question is or whatever you want to talk about, nothing is too small, nothing is too big and nothing is too silly. I'm open to talking about anything.

Michelle: Thank you, Jane. And, yeah, as I say, I'll make sure to put all of those details out there for people and hopefully they find you. And thank you so much for coming and sharing some of this because I do think it's a discussion that we need to have more often, to be honest.

Jayne Mortimore : I'll come back, chat anytime you want and thank you. Thank you for having me on.

Michelle: I will say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody.

Jayne Mortimore : Thank you. Bye.