Paranormal Mechanics, The Rochdale Poltergeist and Beyond: A Conversation With Steve Mera

Transcript

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:47

Picture this, a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics.

1:13

From ancient legends to more recent enigmas, we're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

1:29

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

1:48

So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

2:12

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where we dive deep into the eerie and unexplained.

2:30

Today, we're stepping into the world of poltergeists, known for their chaotic and unpredictable nature.

Poltergeists have haunted the fringes of human experience for centuries, leaving behind questions that science struggles to answer.

2:47

To help us unravel the mechanics of these elusive entities, I'm thrilled to welcome Steve Mehrer, one of the UK's leading paranormal investigators.

Steve is renowned for his expertise in parapsychology and has spent decades researching and investigating the strange phenomena linked to poltergeists.

3:09

From objects moving seemingly on their own to eerie noises and in some cases, bizarre water phenomena, Steve has seen it all.

In today's episode, Steve will be sharing insights into some of the most intriguing cases he's worked on, including the chilling Rochdale poltergeist case, where inexplicable water puddles appeared in the middle of rooms and bizarre, aggressive activity shocked investigators.

3:40

We'll also touch upon the infamous Seattle Bothell House haunting, where a home became the epicentre of relentless, disturbing poltergeist activity.

What exactly powers these forces?

Stay tuned as Steve unpacks the theories behind poltergeist mechanics and shares real world cases that will leave you questioning what you believe about the paranormal.

4:04

Prepare yourself for a journey into the heart of the paranormal, where the unseen stirs and strikes when least expected.

Steve, welcome to the show.

Do you want to start by introducing yourself to our listeners and maybe share a bit about your background?

4:24

Oh, absolutely.

Thank you Michelle for having me on.

I've been in the subject now for 41 years.

I started my first investigation back in 1983.

Seems a lifetime ago, but you know, anybody that's been in this subject knows how consuming it can be and addictive.

4:42

And I'm still here 41 years later.

I started in the subject of UFO phenomena back in 1983 and then I got into paranormal and parapsychological studies.

And over the years I've just become more and more involved.

5:01

I've I've wrote several books.

I'm an international lecturer.

I've lectured in many different countries.

I'm also run a number of organisations.

I'm the chairman of the Scientific Establishment of Parapsychology and MAPPET, which is Ranchester's aerial phenomenal investigation team, which was first formulated in 1973.

5:23

So it's, I think it's one of those second or third longest running organization in the country.

We have I'm ACEO of a magazine, Phenomena Magazine that comes out every month, which is free, which is an esign.

It goes out to 12 countries in four different languages.

5:39

We have currently about 1.8 million readers every month.

And I'm also the CEO of Awakening Events, which is an event company that puts on conferences within the subjects of the paranormal, anything really, which is unusual.

We're always interested in trying to find out and learn more about this subject.

5:58

I've done a lot of work over the years in television, from writing TV shows, assisting with them, to being on camera and hosting them.

I think you do about 130 different shows now.

I've just finished Unsolved Mysteries, which is out actually at this moment, which is Volume 5, Episode 2.

6:17

And I'm always keeping as busy as I possibly can, including investigation courses in ufological studies and the paranormal.

So that's pretty much my life in a nutshell, to be obvious with you.

It's a very busy life, very, very busy life.

6:34

Very packed, I think with, as you kind of mentioned, these subjects that are just so intriguing and fascinating.

Oh yes, I find it all fascinating.

In fact, I don't find any area dull.

I'm I'm interested in all aspects of anomalistic phenomena, you could say, because it's always fascinating to learn what we could possibly find out our new experiments and tests and procedures.

6:56

So it's a, it's another ongoing study of this phenol because we really do need to chip away at it now.

We can't stay static within the subject of the power normal.

As you can well imagine, it's been 120 years and we're still in the same place.

We've got to chip away.

7:11

And there are a number of relevant studies I've been involved in.

I mean, I'm also involved in a number of think tanks around the world and we are trying to sort of advance that subject and learn more about what is actually going on.

How does it happen, How does it work?

7:28

What type of interactions do take place?

I'm sorry, yes, it's an ongoing study, which I don't think I'll complete it within my lifetime because it is so immense.

But we do try our best to sort of chip away at the block, to be honest.

7:43

And you mentioned earlier that you know, you've written and co-authored several books on on paranormal topics.

Do you want to just give us an overview of, of the work that you've written, you know, the research that you've done, You know, what inspired you to to dive into those particular subjects for those books?

8:00

Absolutely.

I mean I've wrote there's about 7 books now and they vary from paranormal to ufological.

There's two main paranormal books out there, one which was the Rochdale Poltergeist case, which I wrote with Jenny, Jenny Ashford, who's a horror writer and which was based on true story that took place in 1995 to 96.

8:23

And probably the most prominent 1 is the the House of Fire and Whispers, which is an investigation which was carried out in Bothell in Seattle in the US some years back.

We had to visit twice obviously and stay over a long period of time to conduct the investigation.

8:41

And it was, it's a tricky 1 because we, we not only had poltergeist disturbances there, but we also had kind of elements of haunting stuff as well.

It's a bit like the Rochdale poltergeist case.

You know, a lot of people think it's, there's a clear divide between these two subjects of poltergeist and hauntings, but there isn't, there is no rule book.

9:01

It's not written in stone.

You know, we are finding incidents where poltergeist fire takes place, where there's nobody in the environment.

So it's not always catalyst associated.

And we find sometimes there's a correlation between, well, what we might refer to as poltergeist type disturbances, but also elements of haunting phenomena as well.

9:21

So clearly it's not quite divided into these two areas.

Sometimes there's an overlap between the two.

Keith Linda has been a guest on the podcast previously.

And it's a, it's a case where you really can see that crossover where there just isn't always that clear line that divides one type of activity with another.

9:42

I mean, it's a, it's a brilliant case to help, I think, exemplify exactly what you just said.

Well, it is, I mean, it was totally shocking for me actually.

I mean, because, you know, I walked into a environment where it was demonstrative straight away, which was highly unusual.

And the whole point about was going to Seattle because Keith had contacted us and the scientific establishment of parapsychology and he he didn't know where to turn to be honest with you.

10:09

And he contacted a number of sort of ghost hunter teams and stuff.

But you know what?

They go out and they, you know, they try to take photographs and capture evidence.

And are they really helping the situation?

Are they helping the individual?

And we really wanted to help Keith.

And unfortunately, he had to flee.

10:24

He fled the house eventually because his sanctuary was his bedroom.

To some point.

The phenomena was going along on around the house but wasn't taking place much in his bedroom until it did.

And the last straw was he told me that he was being poked through the pillow into his face and that was it for him.

10:47

He got out the house and I don't blame the guy to be honest with you, you know, he had gone through a lot.

But he did have a fascination with it and he wanted to learn about the phenomena whilst we were there.

So we was kind of educating him as well.

And it was certainly a bit of an eye opener for all of us whilst we were there.

11:04

But it was a fascinating case.

There is a full documentary available on it called Demons in Seattle Uncovered and you'll find that full documentary which is about an hour and a half long feature of us all the evidence and everything that was recorded as possible is very much record whilst at that location.

11:21

It's about an hour and a half long and and you'll find that on the Supernatural Files YouTube channel, which is there for anybody to watch.

It's certainly one that I, you know, I've been meaning to revisit, given that I've explored some other cases recently and historical cases like Enfield, because I think it is fascinating when you start to look at these side by side rather than in isolation.

11:43

Again, one of those cases where you can't say it's specifically one type of thing.

There is evidence of, of what appears to be other types of things happening simultaneously.

And the questions then that arise from that of, well, is that the poltergeist?

Is it something else?

You know what?

11:59

What's explaining it?

I mean, if we deal with the Enfield Poltergeist case, I mean, it's quite simple is that anybody will tell you who's been spend some time in this subject is that we had a bit of buffer stuff going on there.

We did have two phenomena taking place.

Absolutely.

I mean, I was really close friends with with Maurice Gross.

12:18

He was a member of my organization actually before he passed away and the Gills were faking things they were getting, you know, you got to understand that they'd never had, they lived sheltered lives.

It was poor family conditions.

He had family issues.

12:34

He had the financial issues.

It's a bit of a rundown council house unfortunately.

But you know, in them days he was, you know, there were a lot of homes like that and the children were very isolated.

And all of a sudden you got all these people turning up and they loved it.

They loved the attention.

12:49

They loved that there were visitors coming round to the house all the time.

And sometimes they did throw the odd thing across the room and, and, and, and, you know, and did play games.

There were children at the end of the day, but you've got to be prepared to be faced with that as an investigator because you've got to deal with the mentality of children around this subject.

13:07

And that was actually taking place.

Of course, that's become problematic because you've got some people that say, oh, well, you know, the girls were just, you know, faking things or you've got the professionals sort of saying, well, you know what?

There was captured phenomena.

And I've got the police reports.

13:22

I've got the documentation.

There's a video on on the police talking about what they experienced, including the reporters.

They experienced phenomena first hand.

Absolutely.

But so you've got a bit of a cross of both things and it becomes one of those troublesome cases.

But you have to be prepared when you're dealing with children and under those circumstances, you aren't going to get that sometime.

13:43

So you've got to be able to deal with that.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

And like I said, it's just fascinating when you start to examine these cases side by side to sometimes I think see things that maybe you've overlooked that you recognise somewhere else and you start to see some other patterns or things that really stand out as outliers in terms of experience.

14:04

It's always intriguing when you really start diving into these cases because I think particularly activity around poltergeist behaviour or reported poltergeist behaviour, there is really something truly remarkable that I think you start to to see that can be evidenced and you know, we're always talking about how can we prove that the paranormal exists.

14:28

I think if if anything ever is going to, it's evidence captured and thought about and recorded and documented and examined when it comes to possible poltergeist phenomena.

Absolutely, yeah.

I mean, sometimes it's just another stone to the mountain we're already adding because it's another video, it's another photograph, you know, but that's why we, we do specialised research in giving certain paranormal areas, especially regarding pontegeist manifestations and disturbances, those sort of things, because they're, they're common, they're usually high frequency, high severity cases as it increases your chance of obtaining data or evidence.

15:04

And it's what you do with that evidence at the end of the day, because you really do have to scrutinise your own work.

And that's what's really important is scrutinising your own work.

And of course, once you've kind of ruled out all rational explanations and the extraordinary is the only plausible approach.

15:23

So just kind of coming back to something you mentioned briefly earlier, which was the the monthly magazine.

Do you want to tell us a bit more about that in terms of what kind of content readers can expect if they if they take a look and you know more about how the magazine came about?

15:39

OK, well the magazine first came about then about maybe almost 20 years ago now, if not longer.

And it was an in house magazine for the organization and it was named Phenomena magazine because we wanted to put aspects of all sorts of strange things in there, be it affected sightings, be it paranormal, supernatural, ufological, you know, strange mysteries, earth mysteries, you name it.

16:07

We wanted to make sure that we could cover up the whole realm of different things in one magazine.

The magazine obviously got became high demand to the point where we had to take it out from being just for the organization and get it out for the general public.

We did that and over the years it's grown substantially into an E sign, which is distributed in it's distributed into 12 countries now and also in four different languages.

16:34

And these are, these are, these are very, you know, like we put an example, our Spanish issue magazine is not a Spanish version of the English management magazine.

We have different editors, different stories, different things appearing in them.

It's, it's also free, absolutely free because we believe, you know, the information should be given out freely.

16:55

It's also great for networking.

We're in touch with a lot of investigators and researchers, prominent ones all around the world, which we share the magazine to, and they are also providing data information for that magazine.

Like I say, it's available every month.

17:11

You can obtain that form.

You can go to phenomenamagazine.co.uk and I'll take you to our main website, which is just Awakening Events Limited.

Under there you'll see Phenomena magazine in the various languages and you can access the the magazine every month it comes out.

17:29

You could read it online or you can download it and when We also have an extensive archive of thousands of magazines which are available through the membership programme of Phenomena Magazine's website and which people can get.

I think it's honestly it's like 799 for the whole year.

17:44

And you can grab not only the every single issue of the magazine, both in various different languages and they go back to many, many years.

There's hundreds of them, but there's also probably one of the largest news clipping archives on there in the world as well, which is freely accessible and a number of other things.

18:04

And we are allowing people to come along and be part of experiments and be part of our specialised projects which are outdoors out and about where we're conducting specialised research.

People can get involved in that.

It's a matter of giving them something back for free.

18:21

You know, it's, we're all trying to learn at the end of the day about what constitutes the strange phenomena and it's about sharing that information freely and getting as much information out as we can.

So basically we can start taking steps towards a better understanding of them.

So it is available for anybody.

18:38

The October issues just come out today and it comes out at the end of every single month.

And it's like I say, it's an E sign.

You can subscribe to it.

So it could be directly linked to you.

So we'd send an e-mail to let you know it's available, provide the link so that you can obtain it.

18:54

And like I say, it's, it's, it's forever growing the subscription on it.

We're about 1.8 million readers now.

We deal with a lot of other magazines around the world as well because we, we like to make sure that we're networking and sharing the information as well as we think it's a real, a real effort to try and do things together.

19:12

And sometimes, you know, it all leads to sometimes holding a certain events where we've been speakers over from different places around the world to bring their latest research together.

So that's it's, it's evolved into its own thing really the magazine over the years.

But it's an incredible resource, I mean, a real powerhouse of, of information across the various different issues.

19:34

And again, just that broader perspective and analysis of these topics.

It's, it does, it's not one specific thing.

It covers all the areas and you just get a phenomenal array of voices and opinions and research and thoughts.

19:51

And I do think as a result, you know, you've got something that is a incredible body of evidence of research, of questioning, of analysis in in one place.

And you know, that's just an amazing resource for people to access because like you mentioned, it's available for people to to look at for free.

20:12

And let's be perfectly honest, there aren't a great many places that are credible.

Resources, tools, sites where you can go and explore these different phenomena.

You kind of have to wade through an awful lot of a lot of stuff to get there, but here you've got it in house.

20:30

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, everybody knows, you know, the Internet is a wealth of information, but you've got to hunt it out and the credibility of that information because it's, you know, equally if not more disinformation about on the Internet than there is information.

And that's the way it is really unfortunately.

20:46

But it is all in one place, like you say.

And like I say, it comes out every month.

Most, most magazines are like every bimonthly or every three months now.

But we've always made an effort to put information out every month because that's how fast it's moving the subject.

21:01

We're always having to put out latest information we possibly can.

Plus we also deal with archival information as well.

And sometimes it's things which have been reinvestigated.

And like I say, there's never an area where, you know, we don't cover because we'll, we'll cover any issue which might find.

21:20

I mean, we've covered ancient mysteries, you know, new discoveries, science and things, you know, and all the latest things are usually coming out.

We have a, a, a new section in there every single month.

We also cater for astronomers as well.

21:35

So we do as much as we possibly can.

So Steve, you've been involved in advanced studies into paranormal mechanics.

Do you want to just tell us a little bit more about that and, and what exactly paranormal mechanics involves and maybe some of the insights that you've been able to take away from, from those studies that you've you've uncovered along the way?

21:58

Yeah, it's probably the most prominent of all type of research within the paranormal community.

I've been lucky enough to be involved with a number of specialised experiments and programmes in the subjects of paranormal or parapsychological experiments.

22:15

The area that I specialise in is what is referred to as paranormal mechanics.

And this is what is this is the way how we're chipping away at the block to be honest with you regarding paranormal phenomena.

I'll give you some some examples in regarding poltergeist disturbances.

22:32

We we're looking and doing studies within the airport phenomena and there was one incident that took place during an investigation we were involved in some years ago in regarding a mug that had apported from one location to another.

22:48

Now, what is interesting is that sometimes object manipulation, what we don't tend to do often people think about is to measure the distance of movement between point A and point B.

In other words, where it was and where it was found.

Because sometimes similar statistics, similar numbers seem to turn up.

23:06

It's like a mechanism to this phenomena sometimes.

And sometimes you could even go to a point of as far as saying this like a rule, but in some cases, you know, they just tend to do certain things, poltergeist disturbances.

But that but what we did is, is that we were able to analyse the apported mug against a normal mug.

23:25

Now this was a, there was a set of four mugs that had been purchased only a few months prior to the incident.

So there were four of them and we managed to take away the a ported mug and a bench test mug, just a normal one on the collection of the four to how I analysed and we pushed it through atomic, atomic analysis, 3 levels of it actually.

23:47

Now, what was really interesting is that the computer system once we once we put the data in and the samples are taken of what you might refer to is the test mug, the normal mug, all the data turns up on the computer.

What it consists of your knee.

It's incredible what you can see in there.

24:03

You can see, you know, the process of manufacture, the ceramics, you can see the glazing, the colouring, the, you know, the laminating of it.

You can see everything.

But once we put the apported mug in for analysis, the computer could not bench recognise it against the the the normal mug.

24:23

It couldn't do a comparison.

In fact, the computer systems were basically saying that it isn't what the bench test mug is.

It's it's not identifying it as the same source.

And that was really, really strange.

So when we had to go through other layer levels of atomic analysis, we discovered that the the alterations in that particular mug was incredible.

24:48

The diathermic reaction alone was, was something quite incredible to see.

It looked completely different and the computer just could not bring the two together.

It was treating it as if it was a separate source, you know, something completely different.

So it LED us to start doing research into the airport phenomena simply because we have to question is the airported mug, the mug that left?

25:13

Now that starts getting the brain thinking because we start to think about, OK, well, how would we know?

Because both monks weighed the same, looked the same, identical.

You would not know the difference between them, but under analysis it clearly stands out.

So what worth considering is the fact that is that well, can we prove it's the mug get left?

25:34

Is it an alteration process through the the the process of materialisation and dematerialisation or is it a mimic?

So what we started to do is conduct tests in regarding removal of apples in homes.

And it was interesting because we might have high severity, high frequency cases.

25:52

These are incidents where you might have sort of, I don't know, 10-15 incidents per day, every day.

This is when it's, it's highest amount of disturbance.

And we, we removed the apples and once we removed the apples, there was a very strange void of incidents taking place for about 3 or 4 days.

26:15

There was like suddenly nothing.

I mean people ringing up and saying have you, what have you done?

Have you got rid of it?

What's going on?

So what what do you mean when we say, well, you know, there's there's nothing.

Everything stopped.

And we thought that was really strange.

Although interestingly enough, though, the phenomena seemed to track the airports for a few days and then it was seem I can, it's the best way I can describe it is that the phenomena kind of realises, hang on a second, what's going on here and start to deliver the phenomena back in that original environment.

26:43

So confusion sets in seemingly in regarding the phenomena when you start to remove the apples, which led us to believe that the appos are acting as some type of quantum anchor.

In other words, the phenomena leaves something in the environment so it knows where to deliver the the disturbances to.

27:01

It's like putting an X on the map in a sense of speaking.

But once you remove the app or move it somewhere else, then the phenomena gets a little bit confused temporarily.

And now that leads us into the possibility that is poltergeist or are poltergeist disturbances a management system for dealing with multiple disturbances in various homes, Not to say just that poltergeist disturbs has only happened in one home.

27:23

You know, is it managing many homes?

And this might account for people that are finding things that don't belong in the home or, you know, they're swapping them around from one location to another.

And we also know that sometimes the original airports, you know, sometimes when these actually disappear, sometimes they're found in walls or under the floor, that they're very resourceful.

27:43

It's the most resourceful phenomenon in the world.

Politics has disturbances, so it's going to move an item out of out of sight and make it disappear.

It's likely that it's used the least effort, the path of least effort, which means that it's just in the wall and in the cavity of the wall, like it's just under the floorboard.

27:59

And people have done alterations of how these things.

So it's this is what I refer to as paranormal mechanics.

We've learned a real considerable amount of information in advanced levels and studies of paranormal phenomena.

It's the science though, isn't it?

28:16

It's going that little bit extra.

It's going that next step into really trying to analyse and scrutinize what what is taking place, whether it's apports, whether it's the sounds and the raps, all the various different things that you can encounter.

What do those have to say?

28:31

Are there repeated patterns?

Are there things that are noticeable?

And like you said, oftentimes you can see things repeating.

You can see these patterns almost almost as intentional, deliberate things.

And then like you said, from that it raises so many other questions.

28:50

You start to think about and analyse and question things that you know you experience poltergeist contagion for example.

Does it explain these types of things?

It just raises so many more questions then out of.

What you really don't?

Really very rigorous science investigation.

29:07

Absolutely.

I mean, you know, there are certainly patterns and we can see that that's like, like I say, we we can pretty much write up a rule book.

Yeah, for the, you know, disturbances do things a certain way.

Poltergeist phenomena is a progression phenomena.

You know, it starts off with audible disturbances, then, you know, then object manipulation, physical experiences, those sort of, but it always seems to start as a as a progressive phenomena, usually starting with audible disturbances.

29:34

That's the pattern of events that tends to take place when in regarding the audible phenomena, we now know that the raps and the bangs are generated sounds.

We know that it isn't simply that something is physically wrapping on the wall because when we do replicational tests, it shows the frequency is nothing like what the frequency of the of the wrapping of the poltergeist disturbance sound.

29:57

It is a generated cell by the phenomena and the only way to distinguish them because they sound as if they're real, you know, and it's an actual incident taking place is through analysis because you'll see the frequencies differences.

And it's the same for vocal phenomena.

30:14

You know, we might hear vocal sounds could be DVP, direct voice for no now the air, or it could be something that's been recorded through the process of instrumental transcommunication or EVP, other other effects like that.

But when you start to analyse them, you'll find that they're not the frequency of of human vocals because they're not human vocals making them, They're artificial based.

30:37

But to our human ears we can't tell the difference, but under analysis we surely can.

We can see the differences between them.

Yeah.

I think the only thing that you you can recognise as being different is that difficulty often with people in that environment unable to identify and locate where the sound is coming from.

30:56

And the reason why they can't is because the the sound is not travelling in the same way, it's not being experienced in the same way.

So it becomes difficult for us to understand if it's coming from the left of us, behind us, in front of us.

And it's why you often hear people then saying during a paranormal investigation, where did that come from?

31:15

Did you hear that?

Was that over there?

And it's because they it it's hard to distinguish.

Yeah, some ways don't travel in the same way as normal do through harmonics.

I mean, when we're dealing with, there's a phenomenon which we've discovered actually ourselves, it's referred to as transplacement phenomena.

31:31

And through the experiments and what we discovered through instrumental transcommunication tests, this was actually, we were sponsored by Olympus.

We had Olympus engineers, you know, and we were using Olympus equipment.

How does, how does these recorders capture something which is not within the harmonic range?

31:47

How's it recording it?

Because we might not hear anything and yet the recorder captures it.

But the recorder's only designed to manufacture to record 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz, which is a human vocal range and yet it's on there.

Well, what we've discovered is it's called transplacement.

The phenomena transplaces each directly onto the equipment.

32:05

Now this was discovered years ago in something referred to the Skoll experiment, which took place in the 1990s in Norfolk.

And I was very good friends with Robin Frey, who was actually the lead investigator and a medium actually involved in that in those experiments.

32:21

Now it was quite simply discovered back then because of an old tape recorder, an old, you know, those old 80s tape recorders, you put the normal sized cassettes in the big heavy things and they put it in, but it had like a Figure 8 cable in the back.

And if you don't push it in properly, sometimes it just doesn't work.

32:38

You have to really push them in quite hard.

And they assumed that it was in on the record and they'd go about the business.

And then afterwards they took the tape out, realising that it was still in the record mode, but the actual spools wasn't going round because the Figure 8 cable power cable had been pushed in far enough for it to actually pick up the power.

33:00

Oh, well, what was really interesting is that they got vocal responses on the cassette tape and they thought to themselves, well, how do we get vocal responses on the cassette tape if it didn't actually record it, if there were no power and fair, that led to a further test to not not requiring power whatsoever.

And the vocal responses still appearing on the cassette, even taking out the microphone on even the recording head, you know, and still captured.

33:22

So really all he needed to do is put a blank cassette tape on the table and still it could capture vocals because it's delivering it his transplacement.

And not only does the phenomena transplace itself into various recorders, because some of those Olympus tests were amazing that we were evolved in, you know, just over a 10 second period of time, which isn't not long at all, over three different Olympus recorders simultaneously recording in a in a sight environment.

33:48

One got a female voice, another one got a male voice, and the other one just got some strange pops and clicks.

Well, we don't really shouldn't have been eating pops and clicks.

Nobody heard anything at the time and they were all transplaced individually over a 10/10 second period of time, all at the same time, which is really fascinating.

34:04

But they shouldn't be able to capture these things because it's beyond the human vocal range.

Now, sometimes we do hear them, you know, sometimes people have reported, oh God, I've just heard a name called over me shoulder.

Nobody else hears it.

You know, the recording devices which were running at the time don't record it.

34:21

So if they don't record it, how did we hear it?

Because it's not harmonic.

Same question is we start to look in into, you know, the the psychology of the brain and how we hear and that sort of thing.

We didn't find out.

Not only is, you know, these pieces of equipment that we use, we are pieces of equipment as well, sort of phenomena.

34:40

They can transplace directly to us into the inner ear, the cochlear area of the ear.

It's bypassing the eardrum completely because the eardrum isn't moving because it's not harmonic.

And what we're doing in what we're doing is they're generating frequency across the inner ear canal when it's liquid and hairs and that causes our brains to hear certain information with they're doing exactly the same to us as they do to equipment.

35:03

So we're now knowing that the transplacent phenomena is really no different than what it's referred to in ufological terms as telepathy.

It's exactly the same thing when people hear communications from these so-called entities, transplacement or or telepathy.

35:19

You can call it what you will, but it is the same phenomena.

Honestly, I just find it such fascinating stuff.

And this is the really exciting aspects I think that, you know, some people like yourselves are doing that I really do think could be quite groundbreaking in terms of, of the, the material and the wealth of understanding that can come out of just this next step, interrogation and study and analysis.

35:43

It's going beyond, isn't it?

It's not just simply a case of, like you said, turning up and taking some photographs and maybe a video.

This is really trying to piece together and understand the mechanics of what's at play here and what's could be happening.

That's it.

It's the mechanics.

It's the physics of a phenomena.

35:58

How does it do what it does?

Because it doesn't fall into our normal characteristical physics as we'd understand, you know, we've had professors in in physics and discussion about certain anomalies like this.

And it just goes beyond the normal understanding of things.

36:14

There are the metaphysical phenomena can take place during paranormal phenomena as well.

So, you know, we're dealing with objects that seemingly can go through a table several times and then bounce on top of it, you know.

So which means that they're demonstrating metaphysicality that the phenomena can pick something to be, to literally looks the same and it, it bounces light off it, it casts shadow, but it's not physical in nature when they manipulate it and it can be once they've finished with it.

36:45

So it's, it's very, it's a whole new physics that we really have to get involved in here.

We've got to start pouring out the some of the the full glass of physics we understand and adding some of the new stuff to it.

So just to to change kind of tracks a little bit.

37:01

I mean, earlier you mentioned very briefly a study program called Project Doorway that you're involved with.

What does that involve exactly?

You know, what are some of the the key findings and experiences that you've had while while working on that project?

Well the project doorway is principally it was about UAP.

37:20

Wouldn't you call it UFO if you want them new terminologies just to cause confusion?

But it's about the paranormal aspects to it.

Because a lot of people ignore the fact that the first time any strange entities or non human beings, whatever you want to call these things were seen were around science tables.

37:38

Believe it or not, long before the association to the alien abduction or contact phenomena.

It's the same entities that they were dealing with.

In fact, Skull, the experiments that took place in Norfolk in the 1990s opened up into errors of what we refer to as communications with non human intelligences NHI because of the new terminology now and they start, they had to shut down the actual circle eventually because it kind of lost control over the circle because of these things and it got a little bit tricky.

38:11

But dealing with them was is a slightly different process and we've been involved in a number of experiments with NHI and they've demonstrated considerable things.

One of those things is, is knowing of future events.

And we've got six of these noted down and the longest being 19 1/2 months.

38:31

And they're absolutely spot on to the day.

So how do they know that we'd think about we have free will and that we, you know, life isn't planned out, but they are certainly aware of future events and they're absolutely correct about them.

So that's the first thing that's really interesting.

38:47

The second thing is that we don't know what we actually are dealing with NHI.

There are non human intelligences, but there's a huge amount of deception that's involved and it can be a vote.

It can be carried out through the, the practice of seance.

Now there are a number of different ways.

There is the, the fast route, which I would not guarantee and, or should that suggest that anyone should do that because it can have a bit of a backlash.

39:11

And that is the, the, the invocation process that is like through ritualistic practices around sales tables that involve Enochian, Babylonian, ancient Latin, that sort of thing.

But it is a fast track to the NHI phenomena.

However, what is best is the is a, is a very skilled process of putting a sales and professional sales together.

39:33

And that can take up to a year sometime just to just to get the right people because we have to bench test the people around the table, the experimenters to see what the results are.

And we swap them in and swap them out with different people to gain the best circle.

In other words, the strongest links if you've got a weak link in there.

39:51

And this is what's very frustrating from coming from me as a scientist is that I want to introduce more scientists.

But if I introduce a scientist that is sceptical and doesn't believe it becomes a weak link.

It is really strange.

It is like the phenomenon.

It wants to demonstrate itself to believers and observers that.

40:07

Of this phenomena as opposed to those that don't believe, I suppose it's a bit like faith apparitions.

You know, if you didn't believe in religion, you wouldn't have a faith apparition.

So you've got to believe it to see it.

So it's all like believing you're seeing other than seeing is believing in some cases.

And those studies are taking place and it's took us a long, long, long time to get the right circles involved.

40:27

Sometimes takes such a long process, but once you have, you end up with a better methodology and it's a longer process to reaching NHI level.

But once you obtain communications with these this source NHI, it's interesting because it's like it's not like communicating with this.

40:44

The what we might refer to is the spirit realm in quotes.

It's a bit more like it's like they're on, it's like a, it's like a phone which is off the hook.

You don't have to go through that process again.

When you come back to the table, it's basically the hair straight away sort of thing.

Now then what's interesting is about that when we first started doing those experiments, the experimenters didn't know when to see.

41:04

It was so exciting.

You can well imagine the things we're seeing, that things we're witnessing.

They're so excited.

It's like we want to do it every day.

Well, the problem with doing that, which was which they didn't realise, is that once you start over indulging yourself, the phenomena starts to track back home with this glum.

There's a hitch.

41:19

I could type phenomena and it's not having disturbances at home.

It's not very good sometimes when those things happen.

So we had to write in a protocol to limit ourselves.

So that was like, you know, the, the two in five or the three in seven, which means that we, we're not doing it every day.

We have to break it up in between so that it's not so constant because sometimes we're dealing with the NHI phenomenon and communicating with them.

41:41

It kind of can get under your skin a little bit.

And when it does and has an attachment you can end up it can end up tracking back home with you and causing some issues.

So out of all of the, the, you know, the years of research and investigation that you've done, what would you say are some of the, the best evidence of what we would call paranormal activity for you?

42:03

Well, the first thing is, is that paranormal is such a, a vague word.

It means so much.

It means anything that's not normal.

And there are so many things that aren't normal, you know, would fall under the paranormal heading.

And one of the biggest problems that we've had is that compartmentalisation.

42:19

We've got paranormal researchers that don't step into the ufological or Cryptid area and vice versa, but they're not.

I don't think you're ever going to get a full answer until they start breaking that compartmentalisation down.

All those dividing boxes are start throwing it out all on the table and looking at it all because you start to realise some of your answers aren't in that camp, they're in another, they're in another subject.

42:41

And once we started doing that, we started realising that there's a cross pollination of phenomena in all these cases, paranormal phenomena within a ufological incidents and experiences that we reported these particular encounters as well as the Cryptid sightings, strange creatures that have been seen has paranormal undertones, this psychic ramifications amongst all of them and the conscious connection.

43:05

So we we don't use as a paranormal heading.

We use it as phenomenology because it we're looking at phenomenology as a whole now and seeing so much connectivity.

And that project Doorway does, it's about looking at the paranormal aspects of that ufological phenomena and the evidence really is pointing towards that.

43:26

It's not as simple as just saying it's extraterrestrials coming from some other planet.

You know, there's a lot more that's involved here and the paranormal aspects to it puts it in the paranormal camp for sure.

So it's about illuminating that area because you've got to consider these first experiences that people were having with these NHI was through the practice of ritualistic circles, meditation, fasting, you know, DMT, all sorts of different things.

43:54

You know, there are lots of different names for them for these different things in different cultures around the world, but they are singly all the same source.

And what is interesting is that the paranormal aspects to it, we're finding within the paranormal subjects as well.

44:10

There are a lot of people that you know, if you talk to them and say, oh, I've had a UFO experience, some of the best encounters in the world.

But if you talk to them and say, well, have you had any paranormal experiences?

The answer's usually yes and usually is a predecessor to the UFO phenomena.

Sometimes it's a a post incidents that takes place.

44:26

You have a UFO experience and then they have pods and guys phenomena outcomes out in the blue for a week or so afterwards.

You know, so it's trying to understand and bridge these areas together and look at the data and say, well, hang on a second, these things are the same.

It's the same source we're dealing with, but we we've put it into different camps and called it different things.

44:45

But really it's just they're demonstrating the same things.

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48:53

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Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

So just kind of circling back to, to one of the, the cases that you you referenced earlier, the the Rochdale case which you co-authored a book about.

49:20

Do you want to just take us back to that case, you know, leading up to your involvement, what kind of investigations had been involved prior to you kind of being there?

Was there anything that had happened before you?

You kind of were introduced to the family?

49:38

Oh yeah, I've been involved in, in, in, I think I've done actively about 8 to 900 investigations.

I did 16 years of corporate investigations for businesses and companies on a confidential basis around the UK.

Did 16 years of that.

49:54

That was working with some very big companies regarding.

Well, you could say disturbances were causing managerial problems.

Staff at won't work late, staff at won't work in certain areas of the building, you know, issues on a on a financial basis for companies.

I dealt with them, they became my client so.

50:11

And when I started doing that, I ended up writing a protocol for, for private landlords and city councils of across the UK.

And they took it on board because they were trying to deal with what happens when we have phenomena taking place in the home nowadays.

50:28

And but then still the tenants had more rights than the actual landlords and could actually turn around and say this is not a liveable condition and therefore I'm not paying my rent.

It's a real big problem for them.

So they employed me to basically go and talk to the witnesses and confirm if I believed or not or a phenomenon was taking place there.

50:52

There was an investigation process, a launching processes, everything was very rigorously documented.

And because I was working for, you know, the councils or the, the private landlords.

And yes, sometimes people were faking things because they wanted to move home.

51:07

They didn't like the neighbours next door.

So they manufactured something, you know, that did and does actually happen, believe it or not.

But then there are real incidents that took place and that involved supermarkets, it involved business officers.

I've worked with the police, I've worked with London CID, I've done a lot of different works.

51:25

So when it came to be involved in 199596 with the Rochdale Poltergeist case, I talked with the family because they were claiming that they were having some strange outpourings of water and other strange disturbances.

The council had done as much as they possibly could and that was Rochdale Council.

51:42

So I met up with Rochdale Council and we acted on their behalf to go in and and find out what is actually going on here because they they'd done as much as they possibly could and couldn't conclude anything.

And we did and we went in there and there was phenomena present.

51:58

We witnessed phenomena first hand.

We also witnessed phenomena taking place while the family was relocated for two nights during our investigation process so that we completely eliminate human agencies from being responsible for taking anything.

And yes, we had phenomena taking place.

52:13

We had water manifestation and this was this, unusually, this was actually a heat wave joining the UK.

That's a phenomenon itself, a heat wave in the UK.

But it was, and we hadn't had rain for quite a number of weeks.

There were hosed by bans on and so it wasn't simply that, oh, where's the water?

52:31

Big question, where's the water coming from?

There's only two sources.

It's rather rainwater or it's incoming water.

It's coming into the building, but it's just a prefabricated bungalow.

They didn't have anything in the loft, no header tank, no water pipes up there at all.

Everything came in underground from underground up into the boiler into the into the bathroom and and distributed around the house with water pipes.

52:51

And so how are we getting water manifestations across the ceiling?

And it was very strange to see it as well because it locked and moved across the ceiling as if it was intelligent and it was very strange.

It actually manoeuvred around a light fitting.

We taught samples of that water and bench tested it against the normal tap water cleanings in the house.

53:11

Because the first thing is to ask where's the water coming from?

We sent it to Northwest Water Laboratories and they came back and said, well, basically the difference between the water sample we took on the ceiling, the phenomena and the tap water was tremendous.

In fact, the, IT was a certain amount of data which they'd obtained which showed a significant difference.

53:34

UCSM level, the conductivity of that sample of the paranormal water was about 1953 UCSMS and normal tap waters around about 93 UCSMS.

You know, so we knew that it wasn't, we had to just prove it wasn't, you know, just average water.

53:52

It wasn't, It was a part of the manifestation process of the poltergeist disturbances.

And that was tremendous.

In fact the the strangest incident took place was was the family.

Mr. Gardener was going to make us a cup of tea and he went into the kitchen and he shouts.

About 5 minutes later he shouted us and it was a stranger scene.

54:08

I will never get that image out of my head.

I walked into the kitchen and it was raining and it and it was raining big droplets.

I immediately looked up at the ceiling in the kitchen, which was a shimmer, a shimmer of water and these large droplets falling down.

54:26

He was sat in the corner on a stool with an umbrella up.

It was the most comical thing to see his face.

He had this funny smirk on his face to say, I told you so, you know, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

In fact, the droplets were so large.

You remember looking at the cup of coffee, cup of tea, which he was making us.

54:41

That's what he went into the kitchen for.

And he, he, the gentleman puts the milk in first, obviously.

And I could see a droplet fall into the mug and it was so big that the the milk jumped out a little bit of the mug.

That's how you know, and, and this went on, but maybe, I don't know, maybe a minute or so and then it suddenly stopped.

54:59

It was everywhere was absolutely soaked.

And then it just seemed to really disappear.

It seemed like it went intant ceiling disappeared and just vanished.

And then the ceiling was completely bone dry, leaving everywhere in the kitchen absolutely soaked.

This is why Mr. Garter had three different bots and he just got up and started mopping around as if it was a normal thing.

55:19

It was like what the hell have I just seen?

I will never get that thought out of your mind.

I was so lucky to actually have even seen and interacted with a poltergeist disturbance which causes these types of manifestations.

I mean, that's just incredible as a as an image to see someone literally sitting in their in their kitchen with an umbrella up, having to ward off what is rain falling from their ceiling.

55:43

I mean, how often can you say you see something like that in your lifetime?

No, I've never seen anything like it before having I was I was like, you know, I was like, what the hell, What is this?

And and of course, obviously I had to do some research.

There isn't many cases of water manifestations.

55:58

There are a few.

I've come across a few over the top to years on of doing research, including manifestations of other liquids that are taking place during political disturbances.

But what was interesting is how quickly it would go and disappear and out and relocate to another room.

It was really profound.

56:15

I've never seen anything like it.

I'm not ever seen anything since like that to be honest with you.

So just kind of thinking beyond the water phenomena, do you want to walk us through some of the other types of phenomena that the family experienced, you know, the nature of the disturbances and how frequent they were?

56:33

Well, they were frequent, they were having, you know high frequency, high severity case.

In other words, there were there were about 10 not more incidents per day.

The stereotypical audible phenomena was taking place that caused that was the initiation of the phenomena.

Strange sounds and bangs.

56:48

Something sounded like walking around the home.

Then coughing sounds.

Sometimes there was smell of two different fragrances in the air. 1 was a very strong smell of flowers and another one was tobacco, a smell of tobacco.

57:04

And of course, then you started with object manipulation, movement of objects, apples taking place, things disappearing, turning up projectiles which would always miss the individuals, but it was enough to cause concern.

That's enough.

What that's what Pontryka's family wants.

57:20

Doesn't want to hurt people in some sense, but unless he's really aggravated, but he wants to generate fear because it's a parasitic type of phenomena and he wants to generate fear in the vexation cycle.

So it utilises the energies to create the next phenomena.

57:36

And it's always delivered in the sense of that.

You will, you will not, you know, be confused that this might not be phenomena.

You will have no option to consider.

It is because it's so dimensionatively, it does things in the way that you convince yourself it is actually phenomena to generate the vexation.

57:52

The stress levels go up and create the next act.

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a vicious circle that goes round to be honest.

But the disturbance has got to the point where sometimes people were actually physically touched or or slapped.

It's narrowly, narrowly avoiding the jet tiles.

58:11

Which one along was a battery came out of an empty room.

It flew so hard it actually buried itself into the plastic wall as Mr. Gardner was walking down the hallway.

And there were lots of problems.

But The thing is, the family didn't want to move.

They'd loved that little bungalow.

They had a lovely little garden, and they didn't want to move.

58:28

But they just couldn't live under those circumstances anymore.

So we ended up having to have them relocated by Rochdale City Council to another home.

Now, interestingly enough, it followed them for about 6:00, well maybe 6 or several weeks, several weeks he followed them and then it just suddenly died out and, and that and apparently it never returned after that.

58:49

So it was a fascinating case.

There were lots of stereotypical type of poltergeist disturbances.

What was also interesting, it did seem to have a crossover element of the haunting phenomena.

The smells of tobacco and the coughing was apparently what Missus Gardner thought was associated to her late husband who had died in the property with her.

59:10

He died in the property and he was a smoker of tobacco and he used to hear him coughing and she believed that it was a husband haunting her.

But then there was this pontegaeist disturbances as well on top of it.

Yeah, again, just there's so many questions, doesn't it?

59:26

Because you, you start to ask, well, are they one and the same thing?

Are they different?

Is this some kind of mimicry to to present something that would be recognisable and thought of as the late husband, which shows real intelligence or, or as I said, is there something that is separate happening at the same time?

59:44

Does energy attract energy?

It's it's, it throws so many questions out into the universe when you start looking at it.

It really does.

It becomes, I think the problem is, is our terminology in these boxes that we use.

You know, I mean, it was originally wrote up by the, you know, the Society of Psychotic Research SPR that a catalyst is always usually involved.

1:00:05

And he's usually more female than male, usually aged around from 11 to 14 years of age, sometimes a little bit younger.

Not always the case.

Absolutely not.

It's not written in stone because we had Pontergeist distributors taking place when we relocated the family, you know, So it's not always the case.

1:00:20

You know, sometimes it does fall into a pattern, sometimes it doesn't.

There's a crossover between hauntings, you know.

Are we dealing with two separate phenomena here, or is it all one source of phenomena acting in various different ways?

And he always sort of created these boxes, have called these different things, terminology, poltergeist, hauntings, whatever.

1:00:38

It becomes very problematic.

I would only say to anybody that just document it as it is, don't try and forcefully put it into other.

We're having poltergeist disturbances as well as a haunting.

I'd just say, look, you know, they're having these disturbances and this is what was taking place.

It does get complicated and I think we've caused ourselves some issues in regarding creating boxes and terminology around this when in fact we should just be looking at it as it as a as a whole thing.

1:01:04

So in terms of the the Rochdale, Rochdale case, what was it that made it stand out for you as as a as a case that you investigated?

What was it about the phenomena there that really did make it stand out against others that you'd investigated prior to that?

Well, I can tell you that and that was the night I got thumped in the back and that was not a pleasant really was not right.

1:01:27

If you pitch a in your mind, I was sat in.

We were trying to get the understand the household cells.

It's an environment that we're not used to.

So we need to know is the expansion and the expansion cells in the house.

What is what creaks from you know what, what noises does it naturally make in that environment?

1:01:43

We were separated into teams.

I was in the bedroom.

I was sat on the end of a double bed with two other investigators were Carol and and and and Valerie, which one either side of me.

I was sat in the middle in the darkness.

I was listening in silence and all of a sudden we heard this very deep rasping breaths coming from behind us and it was so loud and very clear.

1:02:06

The first thing I did is a look to my right to look at Cowell, and she was giving me that stare at last too.

I'm not looking behind me, you look.

I looked over at Val to my left and she'd give me that stare as well.

And I thought, right, well, seems I'm the man here.

I'm going to be the one that turns around.

And I went to turn around and just as I got my shoulder, my chin over to my shoulder, just looking around, next minute I'm, I'm literally off the bed and almost on top of this small dressing table in front of me.

1:02:32

It all happened so fast.

Not even though I ended up there and I was in pain and I'd got, I felt like I'd got a tremendous dump in the back.

Well, I did anything, you know, I did what any professional investigator would do at that time.

I ran, I ran out.

I'm not ashamed to say I ran out of that room and I ran out of that house and I sat on the wall at the front holding me back because he he was really hurt.

1:02:57

And and I have to say I was like, what the hell has just done happened?

Have I been hit by this thing and all sorts of things going through me mind.

Well, how can I stop that?

How can I control that?

How do I what you know, what warnings do I have?

1:03:14

How do I stop these things from happening?

And I thought I'm, I'm feeling a little bit out of me depth here.

And that was the first time I considered actually leaving the subject because it bothered me.

It really did.

It's not a nice experience.

Of course, I ended up being dragged back into the house.

1:03:29

The investigators wanted to see them, you know, more interested in looking at my back, which was coming up in a very large bruise at the time, which lasted a few weeks.

But I'm a big guy and it takes a lot to lift me off a double, you know, a double bed at some addendum, a double bed onto a small little dressing table.

1:03:46

And I thought to myself, you know, it felt like it was an electric shock and a thump at the same time.

You know, when you have an electric shock, it repels you.

It felt like that.

It felt like a huge discharge electricity and repelled me forward onto the dressing table, but also the physical fact that I did actually get a punch in the back.

1:04:04

So, and you know, like I say, I've no idea why that happened.

He rocked me.

Well, to be honest with you, he really did because I was really considering a believing the subject at that time.

But you know what, after days pass, she's like the adrenaline starts to kick in.

You start to think, well, how does it do that?

1:04:21

Where does it get the energy from?

You know, what capabilities or even limitations does this phenomena have?

And you end up back in it again tenfold more.

To be honest, I'm, I'm really buckled down on studying the aspects of poltergeist systems and an ending to paranormal mechanics because I'm yearning to try and find out the mechanics and the physics that are involved in this phenomena.

1:04:41

So yes, that was probably the most significant change in my understanding.

I mean, I was relatively sceptical.

You have to be to some degree to that point.

But yeah, that turned my life around and, and now with witnessing it first hand and many other incidences over the years, I kind of know.

1:04:59

Yes, absolutely.

This phenomena does does you know, it does exist, but it's not a matter of just documenting it.

We really do need to try and figure out how does it do what it does.

I mean even why did it do it?

To be honest with you, I have no idea but it was a life changing moment for me for sure.

1:05:17

So how did you approach the investigation?

How did you approach that, that scene, that case, you know, what kinds of methods and equipment did did you use to document the phenomena?

What were what was your process?

Well, I mean the basic process, I mean everybody in the paranormal field will pretty much understand the basic process of paranormal investigation In you go, in you document, you take, you know, you take anything you can go data.

1:05:41

This is 1995.

I mean the video camera we had was one of those massive things you would have to put on your shoulder.

It had a full size VHS tape in it.

It wasn't one that you could just throw around and use it like a camcorder.

It was basically a tripod device which we used.

1:05:57

But phenomena was taking place out of shot of camera lens.

It was really frustrating.

You know, you point it in One Direction and something's happening in the other, the other side of the room.

You point it in that direction and something happens in the other side of the room.

So it's obviously, you know, it was clearly intelligent, this phenomena and was was trying to be evasive.

1:06:15

It's best and yet dimensionative because it wasn't at all at all place whilst we were there, which was discovered in the middle of the living room carpet.

There's no way we could have missed that because we would have tripped over the damn thing.

And what was interesting is the first thing we did when we went into the home is to do a video recording of everything, every place of every room, all the objects, just in case things like this happen.

1:06:37

Airports.

Because then we want to know, oh, where did it come from?

Well, we can go back onto the videotapes and look exactly where it might have come from.

What was interesting is that the airport took place, So we went back and looked on the videotapes, and that object wasn't anywhere.

It wasn't even there, you know, in any of the rooms visible in any shells or anything like that.

1:06:56

So well had it disappeared prior to that?

And we were unaware of that when we did our video recording.

So we did the usual thing.

We did several different interviews, photography, some videoing.

There was audio recordings, there were strange sounds.

1:07:15

There were radio that came on which wasn't even plugged in.

Strange vocals that come through the radio as well was also heard.

People heard disembodied voices.

You know, there were some strange things.

The the whole usual thing you expect during an an Anti Potter guys investigation.

1:07:34

Even the strange joke does it in the air we experience sometimes you've been walking around and suddenly a big droplet of water just falls on your face and you stop and you think why is that?

It's a big droplet of water.

You look up, there's nothing there.

Nothing.

It's just occasionally just to get a single drop of water that'd just splash on you, you know, and then there were other occasions where, you know, a whole door was just beaded in water within seconds, you know, one minute it was there, next minute it wasn't.

1:08:01

It was just, it was a very, very strange case.

But like I say, you know, when I started to to post some details together, I was talking to horror novelist, she's well known in the US, Jenny Ashford.

And Jenny said, do you know, Steve, we should put a butt together on this?

1:08:17

It's interesting.

So I said, OK, no problem.

So I started writing because when I was starting to put things together initially to put something together, Jenny read it and she said, God, he touched me.

She said, Steve said, do you not have any feelings?

I said, what do you mean?

1:08:34

He said, well, you write it very analytically.

And I said, well, that's what I do.

I mean, I'm used to writing reports and scientific documents and things.

So she had put you void of emotion.

So do you let me help you.

And she, she wrote the book with me because she needed to interject.

1:08:49

I am a living real person.

And it's just that my methodology of in writing in in writing is very scientific and it doesn't put forward, you know, those bits about how did I feel at the time and that and some emotion are behind it and what the people were going through.

1:09:05

And she did a fantastic, an absolute fantastic job with with the book, the Rochdale Poltergeist case.

I mean, it's an incredible book.

I mean, anybody who hasn't read it really should pick it up.

If you're interested in paranormal phenomena, if you're interested in poltergeist cases, it is a really, really fantastic read in terms of taking you through that experience and really kind of getting into the into the heart of, of what you experienced in a, in a very tangible, immersive way.

1:09:36

So yeah, I I very much recommend that people pick it up and have a have a read if they haven't done so already.

Well, it is interesting, but yeah.

And I've thought that, you know, that nothing would ever top that.

But some years later I ended up in Seattle, which again, myself and Jenny wrote a book and they the the demons in Seattle, the Washington State politics.

1:09:59

It's basically the the title of it is The House of Five and Whispers.

And truly so because of the disturbances were were there, which were incendiary experiences which I've never experienced before.

And and of course the audible for now on was was just incredible.

1:10:16

And I thought that would, you know, nothing would top the list really, but I would say Seattle for me, and that was two investigations being conducted there and I have to and I had to take all the people.

I mean, I, I took a long at the time the president of the Scottish Society of Cyclical Research, because I needed somebody else who pretty much says it as it is to double check our standards in regarding how the phenomena and what we were capturing.

1:10:44

It was incredible.

We tried to video document as much as we suddenly could whilst we were there.

But the problem is, is that what we didn't realise is that across the video footage was being invaded by voice phenomena, voice phenomena we did not hear at the time, voice phenomena from females.

1:11:00

There was no females in the building and it was captured on the video when we were actually video documenting.

There was lots of profound things that took took place there which really kind of preceded the the you know, the levels of the Rochdale poltergeist case, even though I mean that was quite from a phenomenal to see the water manifestations.

1:11:21

So what would you say were, you know, some of the most compelling pieces of evidence then from the Roche Rochdale case?

You know, what were the besides the water, maybe what were the the, the pieces that really stood out for you as evidence?

Well, it was witness in the water forming because it came out from now, it's right next to the trap door.

1:11:39

It manifested on the ceiling in the hallway.

We went up there and you could basically go through the the hat and put your hand on the floor and look under and see that well, that's where the water is.

But there's nothing above.

There's no water tight pipes up there.

1:11:56

There's nothing up there.

There's no water up there at all.

It was just a small storage area.

Everything was bone dry and dusty and it just manifested.

But as it moved, it seemed to creep forward.

Now how can best describe this is that if you were to get a glass of water and throw it across your kitchen floor, you could see that where parts of it arch out ahead.

1:12:19

Now that's what it was like.

It was like parts of it was sort of arcing out and the rest would follow and it moved across the ceiling in a, in a, in a very unusual way.

And it came towards a light fitting and just decided to take an alternative route around the light fitting avoiding it.

1:12:37

And it was phenomenal.

Now it moved across the ceiling with no drops coming down at all.

And we ended up scooping and getting a sample of that.

And it was the report by the laboratory came back to say, this is not normal water.

It that's good enough for us because what else, what else could it be?

1:12:56

You know, it was so profound and unusual, we didn't couldn't understand what we were actually dealing with.

But it was a manifestations.

These manifestations were short lived and would appear in other locations.

The whole house was basically covered in plastic because as soon as you entered the, the the home for the first time when I was interviewing a couple, the smell of dampness, you know, you filled your nostrils.

1:13:20

You could see and smell that there'd been water damage across furniture and things like that because these sudden outbursts of water from nowhere was causing damage and the and they were going through hell, the family.

But because of all the other disturbance that did take place, which is, you know, your paranormal things, you know your such as your audible phenomenon, a physical phenomena.

1:13:43

There was also these strange occurrences of water outpourings which we'd never seen before and that's what made it so unique.

Now the family were relocated, as I said, to another home.

It did follow them for a short period of time.

The the bungalow, which was a prefabricated bungalow they lived in, was only supposed to have been a temporary home, you know, but they kind of, the council decided to just make them into permanent homes.

1:14:07

People wanted to stay in them and they loved their little home.

The Dartner family, they didn't want to move.

But after they moved, we convinced the council to what you, what we referred to as fallowing, which is you board up the house, you stop UV coming into the home, you disengage all electricity.

1:14:29

That's about the three phase coming into the home, you stop it there.

So that is void of light, it's void of electricity and it's left for 12 months.

And they did, they did actually follow our instructions and they did follow the house.

After about 12 months or so, they opened the house and a family moved in.

1:14:48

We provided a special questionnaire to that family.

Not in a sense of that well, it's got certain questions about power normalities in there, but he would do a specialised questions that we would know if they're having disturbances by the man streaming.

Very special type of form which we we put together and formulated for tenants and council owners and these businesses.

1:15:10

So it seemed that that family were OK.

And as I said, a phenomena followed up for about several weeks and then suddenly died out and never, never to return.

So for me, the most significant thing in there were two, the two main things.

The first one was experiencing physical contact for the very first time.

1:15:28

I've been punched in the back, which was very upsetting and very painful at the time, which like I say, it took me a while to get over.

And the the other thing was witnessing, which is hard to believe, is this water phenomena actually happening right in front of us.

1:15:45

And we witnessed it on multiple levels from, you know, water suddenly beading your walls and doors to downpours of heavy rain, to water manifestations across ceilings, which seemed to move intelligently.

It was just absolutely profound.

1:16:00

So it was those two things in the Rochdale poltergeist case that really did it for me.

And you know, you obviously mentioned how you collected the the water sample for testing for analysis.

Did you do that with anything else?

Did you bring in any other experts to to try and help you understand and evaluate what was going on here?

1:16:23

Well, I mean, The thing is, is that we we wanted to go straight to the top.

I mean, if you want water analysis being done, the best in the UK is actually Northwest Water Laboratories.

We cut out all the middle men and go straight to the top because those are the guys that work with it.

They've got the machines, they've got the analysis equipment.

1:16:41

So we couldn't go up the right type of format and analysis on the water that was required.

And we sent them the test sample amongst them, you know, amongst the phenomena captured water so that they had a difference between what was tap water and what wasn't because people said, Oh, well, you know, maybe that somebody was throwing waterfall.

1:16:58

I seen him.

Where did he get the water from?

Oh, could have got it from the taps.

Well, it wasn't tap water.

You know, that's what we wanted to eliminate.

Well, was it rain?

Was it water coming in?

Well, no, because it was a, you know, it was a heat wave at the time, it hadn't rained for 3 1/2 weeks.

So, but even if it had rained, was it was it rain water?

1:17:14

No, it wasn't rainwater.

And we could see that through the analysis.

So for ORS it was going right to the top there.

Now we discussed it.

We had other researchers in there and looking at it and they were just as perplexed as we were.

But we had to do the analysis and that was what was the main thing because this could have ended at any time.

1:17:30

We didn't know.

We've, we're suddenly witnessing this and we're thinking to ourselves, will it ever happen again?

Well, yes, it happened again a few times.

But you know, we every, any single day could have been, that's the end of it.

It's the manifestations have stopped, you know, because we heard reports of this sort of thing just suddenly, abruptly stopping sometimes.

1:17:48

So we didn't know how long we actually had.

We had to act quick.

And the best thing for us is that we conducted the best form of analysis that could possibly be done at that time, using the the most specialised people in the country to deal with that.

And that's what was important because that is data and that is scientific information that we could hold and we can look back on and we can do correlations with other cases.

1:18:10

Should we have water formings appear again?

And I was just going to to echo that in terms of this is this is an example of real scientific rigour.

This is at, you know, analysis of the highest calibre that like you said, you have as tangible evidence then to compare with other such phenomena if it occurs again in the same manner or to a lesser extent.

1:18:34

Because like you said, you don't often see water phenomena like this, it just doesn't happen as frequently so.

I've read about it never, I never thought I'd ever see it, you know, he was just at first I thought, am I seeing this?

Am I, what is this is, you know, and eventually over a period of time, he realised this is phenomena and we are, we are really lucky to have seen it, you know, and I and I and I thank him, you know, that I, I experienced that.

1:19:02

Not so much the thump in the back, that wasn't very nice, you know, but I'd have witnessed it, one of many few probably that I have witnessed.

Porter Geist liquid manifestations.

You know, we've heard and read about these cases of water bubbles turning up suddenly before the next act of paranormality takes place.

1:19:19

That water bubble tends to disappear.

It's like the phenomena utilises the resources here, you know.

So sometimes it could suddenly appear quickly and then disappear quickly for the next act.

And we never knew from day-to-day if it was suddenly going to end.

So we had to do as much as we possibly can in a time given.

1:19:37

The various different examples that you shared in terms of the sensory phenomena, voice phenomena, etcetera, and these experiences that were happening within within the family home, were those something that affected multiple people or did you ever kind of spot any patterns as to whether it was more individualized or was it just something that was experienced by anyone and everyone?

1:20:02

Well, I mean the local vicar, I mean, you know, if you see the images of the home, you'll see there's a Spire ascending behind the the bungalow in the in the distance.

And that was the local church where Mrs. Gardner was a cleaner and she knew the vicar.

1:20:17

And the vicar did come over prior to our investigation, but we decided to go round and see the vicar and talk with him to find out what his experience was.

And he was, he was, he didn't have a nice experience there.

He went in trying to assist family because when we when we went through the door to sit, sit in the office with the figure, I was really shocked for him to just turn around and say, you know, when I said about the Gardner family and he said, oh, yes, they, they have a poltergeist.

1:20:45

I was like, take it back.

I thought, well, that was blunt.

And you'll often get a response like that straight away.

But yeah, he'd had his fill of the place.

I mean, he'd been around a number of times, but on one particular occasion there was a very large picture.

It was, I remember seeing the picture when it was there.

It was above the fireplace and on the, on the brick wall and the chimney breast wall.

1:21:05

And it was, it was quite, I'll say what, maybe 3 foot long by 1 1/2 foot high.

And it was, I don't even people remember those 1980s foiled type paintings.

It was kind of made-up of foil and it was like of tigers.

And this thing wobbled a few times and sprung itself off the wall and buried itself into the the vicar's leg.

1:21:28

And he was very upset about that.

And he was upset he was hurt.

You know, he said he was, he had a bit of a bruise on there.

And, and this actually happened in front of him.

It happened to him while she was there trying to condole the family, trying to help them.

And we've got all those details from the vicar during that visit.

1:21:46

So he was absolutely convinced.

He'd actually wrote to the diocese actually to see something could be done and that's how much he was convinced of the phenomena.

So when we told him that we were involved, that we may have to have the family renovated the, you know, depending on our reports going back to Wattsdale City Council, he would basically was concerned about the family.

1:22:08

Now they all experienced it.

Mrs. Gardner did, Mrs. Gardner did, Mrs. Gardner's daughter and granddaughter experienced a phenomena first hand.

And there was a few people that visited the location that also experienced a phenomena and and ourselves as well.

So, yeah, it was demonstrative and it was it happened on the sunniest of days.

1:22:28

You know, there was nothing untoward about this.

He wanted to to demonstrate phenomena, but at the same time it also wouldn't play get the game.

You know, when we're trying to capture data, sometimes it would avoid, there would be disturbances, something would just suddenly drop off a shelf in the other corner of the room when the camera's facing the other way, you know, just things like that.

1:22:48

And which is, which is very frustrating.

Well, one thing I actually did when I first, I mean, I'd interviewed the family a few times on my very first visit, I did something which, you know, just kind of vented my mind.

I do these things sometimes.

And I had a small recording device, like a Dictaphone type thing.

1:23:05

And I interviewed the family.

And then I said, look, you know, we'll arrange to come back next week.

In the meantime, this is how to contact me.

I'm going to get some data.

I was looking into where the building was.

Was it over any unusual locations, you know the history of the place?

1:23:20

I, I had about a week's work to do, but I left it recording under the cushion on the settee and left.

I went round the corner for 5 minutes and then I went back and the knocks on the door and I said, oh, I think I might have left my recorder behind.

And I went over to the settee, pulled it out from the cushion behind the cushion.

1:23:40

And I said, Oh yeah, I've got it here, thanks very much.

I'll see you next week.

And they said goodbye, went back, and I listened to what the family was saying after I left.

And what was really interesting, as I could hear quite clearly, we all heard it, Mr. and Mrs. Gardner in conversation saying, do you think you believe us?

1:23:56

Because we need to have something and we need some help, You know, you know, they must think that we've lost the plot and things like that.

So they're very, very convincing, you know, that they were having these disturbances because it was too much to believe straight off the cuff to begin with before our active investigation.

1:24:14

But we were lucky to actually confirm that the family were actually telling the truth.

So after you completed the investigation, your and your time though, you know, what were your final thoughts then on the case?

Well, the final thoughts were the fact that there was disturbances there though that were poltergeist type disturbances, but they also had an undertone of maybe a possibly haunting as well.

1:24:38

The possibility that it was something associated to the death of Mrs. Mrs. Gardner's ex-husband in the, in the property, in that back bedroom where we're sat, funny enough, and the strange smells of tobacco associated maybe within the, the coughing sounds, the sound of walking around at night was seemingly more haunting type phenomena.

1:25:00

But there were Polterdam systems as well, as well as the water manifestation, of course.

So we had to just write it up.

It was, you know, there were elements of both.

With that we went back to the council.

We had a sit down meeting with them.

We provided all the data and the reports and the analysis and they asked us what do you think our best thing is to do?

1:25:17

And I said under the circumstances I would have a consultation with the family and asking them if they would prefer to be relocated.

But you know what, look, the family had been through hell and back.

I said look, let's make them a good offer, you know.

And they did because they moved them out of a, a small 3 bedroomed bungalow into a large 4 bedroomed house, 2 floors.

1:25:42

So you know, that was they did treat them really well.

For me it was about the concern of the family.

So the Rochdale Council did do that.

We kept it from I mean initially there was one Internet thing what happened where it did leak out to the press, which I picked up on.

1:25:59

It was completely controlled after that by by us.

So we dealt with it management wise for the council, for the Rochdale City Council and for the family as well settled.

We basically tried as much as we possibly could to make everybody happy, get a good response out of something pretty bad for everybody at the end of the day.

1:26:19

So the council were happy, the family were happy and we were happy so that there was a job done for us and we moved on.

That was part of our 16 years of doing corporate investigations.

That one was for Rochdale City Council.

1:26:36

So looking back, you know, is there anything that you would have have done differently during the investigation, you know, additional methods maybe that you would use now if you could or other ways that you would explore the phenomena now that you couldn't do back then?

Yeah.

1:26:52

I mean, we could see huge differences between when we did the Seattle investigation and then the 1995 investigation.

I mean, you know 95 is a long time ago and we didn't have heart equipment we had now we didn't, we couldn't have conducted hard to test we could now.

1:27:08

So it's a whole different process, a very vigorous now with the specialised equipment that we have which was unavailable at that time.

Some of the equipment wasn't even manufactured back then for what we wanted to do.

So yes, I mean it's, it is relative to the time of the investigation took place.

1:27:25

We could have done so much more if we had the equipment that we have now to do that and, and analyse and, and stuff and captured data.

There were so many different things.

But unfortunately, you know, in 1995 it's, you know, we didn't have half the stuff we could have had which we could do now.

1:27:43

So it's, it's just a shame really.

But it's just one of those things.

It's a sign of the times.

But you got a good workout in with that huge brick of a of a camera, so there was that plus.

Yeah, it was huge thing.

It was like a big productivity full size thing with the VHS tape.

It was so heavy.

1:27:59

Well, you put it on your shoulder, you had to put it on a tripod.

This was not something that was devised to be walking around the house with you know, it's and now look at it.

We've got all mobile phones and even have mobile phone.

They're not these smartphones and we've got cameras in, you know, the job is so easy now with, with all the things we have compared to them, you know, so things have changed drastically over the years, which is good for us because now we can start analysing and looking at, at the data a lot better with the the technology that we have.

1:28:32

So how would you say then that, you know, this case influenced the way that you approach other investigations since then?

You know, did it change your overall outlook in terms of paranormal research?

Well.

No, it didn't really change the outlook regarding paranormal research because I was like I say, I mean, I've been doing it since 1983.

1:28:50

So, you know, I mean, as as time goes on, you get new methods, new pieces of equipment, new ways of doing studies, you know, that's always increased over the years.

The methodology of an investigation is trying to be as thorough as possible as you can.

I'd already learned, you know, some things in psychology, some aspects of criminology, which is regarding detection of, you know, of deception, deception detection, which is about, you know, when you're interviewing people, the, the way they act into regarding questioning and stuff like that.

1:29:20

So, you know, you're looking for authenticity.

You're also trying to get there in as fast as you can because getting the raw data is the most important because exaggeration gets crept in, creeps into these cases over periods of time, unfortunately.

But for me, you know, it's like always call it for what it is.

1:29:36

I mean, don't get me wrong, you know, I mean, there are hundreds of cases that we've kind of just sort of concluded, no, it wasn't paranormal.

You know, some of them have been fate, some hoaxers, some of them are rational explanations, people just misidentifying things.

We've done plenty of them.

We just don't talk about them very often because nobody wants to hear about those cases.

1:29:55

You always want to hear about the really great ones, you know.

But equally though, I do think they're, they're equally of importance because, you know, it shows the process of our investigation and how we, we manage to conclude what we conclude at the end of the day.

But no, I couldn't say I would change the process of, of me and the way the process of investigation is.

1:30:14

I think the only time is, is that, you know, is that you gain better knowledge through the pieces of equipment and the new methods are involved in investigation standards.

In 19, I think it was 1993, we ruled the no hypnosis policy because you know, people we don't use hypnosis after that because of, you know, faint memory that can happen.

1:30:36

And I don't typically quite actually muddies of waters sometimes.

So yeah, there's lots of things that have changed over the years as we progress.

But I mean now looking now is, is significantly nothing like back it would be in 1995 with the with the equipment that we have now and the methods of the investigation process and data gathering is tremendous compared to where we were back in 95 and.

1:31:01

Just kind of bringing it back to the the book that you co-authored with with Jenny Ashford, how did how did that collaboration come about?

And you know, what was the experience like writing with her for this?

And obviously the the later book about Keith Linda's home.

1:31:18

Well, I remember Jenny contacting me because I had wrote up some.

We always have our own documentation on cases and I think it was featured on our main website at the time.

And she'd read it and contacted me and then wanted to know more about it because Jenny, Jenny's husband when he was younger, had poltergeist disturbances and they were repeatable through his life occasionally.

1:31:44

So she had this interest and she was a novel writer, horror writer, and she was quite well known.

And she said to me, you know, have you considered actually writing a book?

I thought, you know, I always would write a book.

It's just all down to time.

I'm so busy doing the actual work.

1:32:01

You still get very little time to actually, you know, put pen to paper and start writing a book.

I would love to, of course.

So she said, well, give me, give me, send me some information over, put some few bits together and send me over.

Well, let me have a look.

So I did and she came back to me and she basically said it's really good, but it's very analytical, very scientific.

1:32:20

Steve, people aren't going to connect with you.

I said, well, I don't need them to connect with me.

I need them to connect to the information.

She said, no, you don't.

He said not in a book you don't.

She was saying, she told me a lot, She really is great.

And she said, look, people need to identify, you know, you don't talk about what you were feeling at the time, which I would never do in a scientific report, of course.

1:32:41

Writing a scientific report in a book or two completely different things.

And I said, oh, right, OK, well, what do you suggest?

She said, well, let me write it with you because give me all the information and let me put it together because I need to could communicate with you and actually lose the questions about, you know, what was your feeling at the time, what was your anticipation, your fears, all sorts of things.

1:33:03

And so we did have a number of interviews and she put it all into the book and she did a fantastic job.

She's amazing at what she does.

And I learnt a lot from her about, you know, the compiling a book is, is not just simply putting all your scientific data into a book.

1:33:19

It's about connecting with your reader and because they've got to try and envisage what I was going through at the time, trying to imagine how I felt when I was watching this stuff unfold.

And you don't get that from science and reports.

So she did a fantastic job and the book is done very well.

1:33:35

It's also out in Japanese as well, so and that's done very well overseas as well.

So she did a great job.

So just to kind of bring things together for anybody listening to this, is there any advice that you would, you know, give to other investigators, other researchers that you would kind of say to them, what would your take away be?

1:33:57

What would you hope other investigators and researchers kind of learn take from your experiences?

Well, I think the first thing is, is that if anybody asks, I would say we don't, if anybody looks at our research or investigation process, we don't run around the houses with infrared.

1:34:15

We don't turn off the lights.

Why turn off the lights?

Light deprivation causes problems, you know, psychological problems and equipment problems and basically health and safety issues as well.

Why?

Because phenomena will, will produce itself in the sunniest of days.

You know, if you think people, you know, that only happens in the dark.

1:34:32

It's not true.

It's been proven that by Lawrence Livermore Laboratory's paranormal experiences, they happen during the sunniest of days, even when a phenomena, direct voice phenomena takes place and says it could only happen during the night or you're not allowed to have lights on, things like that.

It's not true.

1:34:48

You know, it can happen.

So basically we don't do that.

You don't.

I mean infrared, I mean, you know, we, we, we discovered that some phenomena which can be problematic in homes can be enhanced through infrared.

So we don't want to be using it if we really were looking to try and assist the people in the living under those conditions, especially if they're being traumatised.

1:35:09

So our method of investigation doesn't employ it.

The only time you'll see us actually using any form of infrared is when we're out in the middle of the night somewhere where there is no lights, you know, like in the middle of a forest or something.

We need to use that to help see our weight, to be honest with you, because we can't see in the dark.

1:35:25

But you know, that's the only time.

Very, very rarely would we ever use it.

We, we treat the phenomena as direct as possible as we can.

We, we always involve the witnesses.

We keep them up to date.

I would also say, look, you know it when it comes to data and gathering data, make sure that you know the priority is your witnesses.

1:35:46

It's always should be the witnesses welfare at the end of the day and it always has been for us.

If it's not our clients and big offices and businesses, then it's the individual clients of homes with residential buildings.

You know, they're the priority, super priority are when they are, you know, children are involved or you know, it's severe cases where people have been injured and that sort of thing.

1:36:10

They are super important to, to get straight on as soon as possible.

Give the rapid response teams.

You know, in other words, they if if they get a three o'clock a 3:00 call in the morning and you have to go out, you have to go out, you know, you've got to show support.

It's not just about gathering data, it's about showing support for these people are going through these terrible problems.

1:36:30

Sometimes, you know, especially if children are involved, it's just a nightmare.

And sometimes, you know, they, they, I mean, at, at Christmas time, I get with so many cards.

That's still constantly because from people, happy people that, you know, thanks so much for Steve, for everything that you've done.

1:36:46

They've never forgotten.

They leave, you know, they send me Christmas cards.

You know, I'm just doing my job at the end of the day.

I care about people.

That's the first thing.

Secondly, can I help them?

You know, and I'll do go out way out of my way to help them.

Also, I, we never charge for investigations.

1:37:02

If there's, if it's a corporate investigation, we'll claim for expenses, you know, but we've never charged for an investigation.

It's not something that is should be charged for.

It should be naturally within us to want to help people, you know, and that's what I've been doing even overseas at my own expense when I went to Seattle, you know, I mean, it's other places around the world, you know, it's, I've done that under my own expense because I'm interested in trying to help people and you build up a rapport with people around the world that you've helped over the years.

1:37:29

And that's probably the most rewarding thing from this.

But I say it's always try and be sincere.

Utilise some of the new types of equipment which are available for investigation processes, numerous different ways of capturing this data as well.

Because, you know, it's a matter of our understanding of how we manage to capture phenomena as well, which is a real important issue.

1:37:52

And sharing that information with the individuals, the witnesses and making sure that they're the number one on the list.

So that's really basically the best advice I can really give to be honest with you.

Don't get too involved with other groups.

I've done a lot of clean ups.

I call is when other people have gone in a ghost group or whatever.

1:38:09

I mean, I don't do paranormal investigations with ghost groups, you know, but when they come knocking on my door, these people are having problems.

They usually say, well, I've had this person in or I've had this grouping and sometimes we have to do clean up operation.

In other words, we have to go in and try and rectify the damage they've caused because they filled the heads with all sorts of things and they're absolutely petrified.

1:38:31

And that doesn't help when trying to live in an environment you're supposed to call your home, you know, So that was the first thing is it's the psychology of dealing with the individuals.

Sometimes you've had to do that.

It's, it's, it's problematic.

But at the end of the day, make that your cause, the number one thing that you want to help.

1:38:48

And and you can't really go wrong to be honest, as long as you're sincere and you're honest with them and keep them well informed.

Honestly, Steve, it's been so insightful to talk to you and just the knowledge, the passion, the information that you have is just absolutely incredible.

1:39:06

I think you're, you know, you are one of the, the best speakers in terms of this phenomena.

The experience that you've had over the length of time that you've had just makes you a real powerhouse of, of knowledge and information.

So thank you so much for coming along to, to share some of that.

1:39:23

It really has been a real treat for me to be able to talk to you and to hear your perspective on the Rochdale case, but also, you know, Keith Linda's home that you've touched upon as well.

Then going beyond that into into some of that science, that mechanics of it, which again, is just so fascinating is has just been such a treat for me.

1:39:44

And I hope everyone listening really takes that away as well, that this is something that is out there.

You can look into this, you know, and as part of that I will of course make sure that all of your details for the books, for your websites, etcetera, are readily available so people will find them.

1:40:04

On the most of the information you'll find on Awakening Events Limited, including the magazine for now in the magazine, our events and all those sort of things.

And also I've just finished with full solved Mystery Juice is out on Netflix at the moment.

Volume 5, Episode 2.

When I worked with a catalyst, a very, very profound catalyst called Don Phillips, and that's a whole episode on there.

1:40:27

It's on Netflix at this moment, so that's available there.

Yes.

So as I say, I will make sure that all of those details are in the podcast description notes on the website.

So I very much recommend that if anybody listening wants to follow this up that they come and find the magazine if they haven't already, come and look at the website, watch the the Netflix show if they haven't seen that.

1:40:48

And just yeah, I'm sure they will.

They will not be disappointed by following up with your books or all the other things that you've done.

They are a real testimony to the to the passion and the the research and the rigour that you've brought to everything.

So like I said, thank you so much for your time.

1:41:06

Thank you so much for having me on, Michelle.

Look forward to coming back on in the near future.

Oh, always.

The door is always open for it.

Steve, Honestly, I could, I could talk to you about mechanic quant, you know, these types of science all day.

I mean, I think for most people who maybe don't like science, I think this is something that could would quite easily make them interested.

1:41:25

It's the full.

Side it's the full side of science.

Don't know how to make it boring, but I'm just trying to let people know that, you know, there's so much more to just power off and all that meets the eye.

And we try and keep it as fun as much as we can and we've so much information to share.

So do keep it in touch, Michelle.

And we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll pick up on that again in the future and cover some more the aspects of that.

1:41:45

Definitely, and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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1:42:07

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Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.