Secrets in Stone: Exploring Cemetery Symbolism with Tui Snider

Transcript

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:57

Picture this.

A realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.

Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.

1:26

We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.

But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.

Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.

1:50

Feel free to share with friends and family.

The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.

So, whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.

2:11

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story.

And every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:33

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where we dive deep into the eerie and mysterious world of the past.

Today I have a very special guest joining me, Chewie Snyder, a Texas based author and speaker with a passion for exploring historic cemeteries around the world.

2:53

Chewy's fascination with these resting places has LED her to write a dozen best selling books including Understanding Cemetery Symbols, 6 Feet Under Texas and Paranormal Texas.

Her work has been featured on major platforms like Coast to Coast AM, ABCNBC, and Timeout Travel.

3:18

She even writes a monthly column for American Cemetery in Cremation and occasionally teaches classes on cemetery symbolism.

But her favorite way to share her knowledge is by leading immersive cemetery tours.

Just this year, Chewy guided a tour in Italy, and she's already preparing for another in 2025.

3:41

In this episode, we'll uncover some of the most intriguing aspects of her work.

What does she mean when she says cemeteries are for the living?

What are the most misunderstood symbols found in cemeteries?

And how can context change the entire meaning of these symbols?

3:59

Chewie will also share some chilling tales from a cemetery that once saved her life to paranormal experiences that might just leave you looking over your shoulder.

So get ready for a fascinating conversation about cemetery symbolism, urban legends, and the ghosts of the past only on Haunted History Chronicles.

4:23

Stay tuned as we say hello to my special guest.

Hi Chewie, Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Aw.

Thanks so much for inviting me, Michelle.

4:41

I'm very excited.

Would you like to start by just introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about your background?

Oh, sure.

So I live in Texas, that's my home base, but I am very lucky I'm AI get to travel a lot.

4:58

So I'm a world traveler and I write a newsletter, books, I give talks, I lead cemetery tours.

And I do a lot of research both in person at the when I'm traveling, visiting different historic cemeteries and also, you know, other regular, more traditional research.

5:18

So how is it then that you became interested in cemeteries, and cemetery symbolism in particular?

Well, as a kid, you know, I used to think that history was the most boring subject in the world.

It just seemed like we learned about wars and, you know, this war, that war and this king and politics.

5:37

And I, I just thought it was so boring.

But on the other hand, whenever I would have to write a paper about some historical figure, I love to doing the research and trying to find those quirky tidbits about them.

And later when I started writing and I started getting paid to write, I found that I still really loved doing research, but I like to do a lot of archive research into old newspapers.

6:02

And The funny thing is, is there's often misspellings in them.

And so someone's last name might be Kelly, but it would be spelled, you know, Kelly in one paper and then with an IE in another paper and then EY in another paper.

6:18

And I found that if I, you know, if I went to it, if possible, I can't always visit there.

But when I was researching for Texas, I would go and I would visit their grave site and I would just be like, OK, I'm going with EY because that's what's on the headstone.

And so I started spending a lot of more time in cemeteries I had as a child.

6:37

So this kind of reignited my Oh yeah, I've always liked historic cemeteries.

I started visiting them more.

And then I started noticing that there were symbols a lot on a lot of the headstones.

And I would think, well, well, what do these mean?

6:52

And so I just started compiling amassing information about that, keeping that in a folder because I found it a fascinating topic.

And it really just grew from there.

And one thing I love about it is it's a topic that's never ending.

I never feel like, OK, you know, that's that I've learned it all the end.

7:10

Even some cemetery symbols that I've known what they meant for a long time.

When I revisit them, they become more nuanced.

I learn more, another layer to the history of them.

And to me, it's a topic that's just never ending and and really fascinating.

And do you have a fascinating story about how a cemetery literally saved your life when you were when you were a child?

7:33

Can you tell us what happened exactly?

Yeah, Oh boy.

So I lived in Virginia when I was a little kid and when I was nine years old, you know, things are pretty different than they are today.

This was the 70s.

And so back then, my parents and other kids parents, they would just literally tell you on a Saturday, maybe go play outside.

7:55

We don't want to see you till dinner, you know, go playing unattended.

Kids could just range, you know, free range.

And I was a Girl Scout.

And so my friends and I would just walk from our school to our Girl Scout meeting, which was in a church.

And right next to the church, there was this old a nice historic graveyard.

8:15

And we love to play in it.

We would run around and we, we chase each other.

All very dangerous really, but we were running all around.

We we kind of thought we had assessed where the dangers headstones were and we thought we were doing a pretty good job.

We never seemed to get hurt there, so I guess we're doing an OK job.

8:31

Well, one day we go to the for a Girl Scout meeting and no one is there.

We didn't know they'd canceled the meeting.

We hadn't gotten the memo.

So this janitor comes along and he tells us, oh hey girls, the meeting is in a different room, come with me.

8:47

We go with him and he locks us in a room with him and we quickly realized that we're in danger, our lives are in danger.

This is not a good scenario.

He doesn't have good intentions towards us to put it mildly.

And luckily it was on the 1st floor so we were able because once I realized the door was locked, that's when we really freaked out and we managed to climb out the window and we were very shaken up.

9:12

We just start walking home.

We're not even running home, we're just like what just happened.

Well, he pulls up next to us in his car and tries to get us again.

So to escape him, we ran through that graveyard.

And because we had played in chase in that graveyard so many times, we knew exactly where to run.

9:32

And he, you know, ended up tripping overhead stones.

I heard him thumping.

He was falling.

He was not able to catch us because let's face it, we were, we were two little 9 year old girls.

He could have easily caught us if we had just run down the street.

But thank goodness we ran through that graveyard and then we found a path.

9:50

We knew where there was a pass through the woods, and we went through that.

And so, you know, that was a scary thing that happened to me.

And the sad thing was our parents didn't believe us back in the day.

You know, who would do that?

They thought we just made-up the whole story for attention.

You know, it's a little crazy.

So flash forward to a few years ago and I'm writing a book that I call 6 Feet Under Texas, and it's a travel guide to historic graveyards and cemeteries in Texas that are worth visiting for a day trip and fun places to go and have interesting history behind them.

10:24

And one of the stories I included in there is about the history of what we in America, we have the Amber Alert system.

So if a child is abducted, you get this horrible sound on your phone.

It's like, you know, it's really a horrible sound, but it gets your attention.

10:40

And then they had information about the child who's missing in case you see them, and they'd help apprehend the person and find the kid.

Well, it's named for a little girl named Amber.

It's actually what they call a backronym because they made an acronym out of it.

But they used her name.

And she's nine years old.

10:57

She was a Girl Scout.

And she was just walking alone one day.

And some witnesses saw a man pull over in a pickup truck and just pull her into the pickup truck and drive off.

And sadly, they discovered her body a few days later in a in a river.

11:14

And when I was researching that, oh, my gosh, I had chills head to toe.

And I just thought back to looking at pictures of her and just feeling queasy going, you know, that could have been me.

We didn't.

Thank goodness.

We have Amber Alerts now and just.

11:30

But yeah, So that the whole thing kind of the cemetery did save my life.

And that whole thing, learning about the Amber Alert, really brought it home to me, the close call I had.

I mean, it's rather chilling.

It's a terrifying experience to hear, let alone, I can't imagine what that would have felt like to experience something like that and at the age that you did.

11:50

I mean, it's, it's horrifying, but sadly very much part of our society, isn't it?

It's something that we have to be so aware of and so cautious of all the time, sadly.

Yes, and, you know, it did affect me.

I mean, I, our parents didn't believe us.

12:07

But I mean, even to this day when I go into a restaurant, I always scope out the exits, things like that.

I always think of.

I always I never wanted when I was growing up, the thought of wearing high heels made me nervous because I never wanted to wear shoes that I couldn't run in, just things like that, you know.

12:23

So yeah, it is very chilling.

And I really, you know, feel for Amber.

Her case is still an open case.

One of my friends who travels a lot and visits a lot of historic graves, he's a, a, a white male and he went to visit Amber's grave and he took pictures of it.

12:38

And this is maybe 10 years ago and, or even less than that.

And she was killed I think in 1996.

So, I mean, it's been a a while, but still as he was leaving, he was a plainclothes detective, came up and asked him several questions and he really saw.

12:54

I was like wow they they are still trying to find her killer which I I'm amazed by.

I'm grateful for, I think it's incredible that, you know, there are people who who dedicate sometimes huge amounts of their time in, you know, from their position in the police, reaching out and trying to find these people who do these terrible, terrible things.

13:15

I mean, it takes incredible dedication, I think.

It does.

It really does.

So just kind of coming back to this connection then with cemeteries.

You know, I followed you for, gosh, a few years now and I've heard you give some fascinating presentations on various different YouTube channels and so on.

13:35

And you know, I've often heard you say that cemeteries are for the living.

What do you mean by that?

How would you explain that to the people listening to the podcast?

Well, First off, thanks for following me.

I'm really flattered by that.

And secondly, yeah, cemeteries are for the living.

13:53

It was a bit of an epiphany I had at some point.

I can't remember exactly when, but obviously cemeteries are where we place our dead.

There's that's not disputed.

We, but none of us really knows exactly what happens.

I, we would all like to know.

We, I'm not in any hurry to find out 100% for sure, But the cemeteries are there and they are places that we can return to grieve.

14:17

They're places we can mourn.

I think in this day and age, they're especially important because cemeteries are outdoors.

So it forces us to maybe put our phone away and actually step out and connect with nature.

It can really help you put your life into perspective.

14:32

So in that regard, I feel it's cemeteries are for the living, and I mean humans, but I don't just mean humans when I say cemeteries are for the living.

Many cemeteries are actually very important wildlife corridors and they sometimes they are the last place where you can find native plants.

14:52

So their botanists who find them as as kind of like a living library where hey, wow, there's this, this native plant.

If they want to revive in a native habitat, they might turn to the cemetery.

There was a cemetery I visited in Cornwall that was amazing.

15:09

It's one of my favorites because it had a big sign up that explained as you walked through, this is a very large cemetery.

They had certain pathways that were mowed and you could see people walking their dogs and jogging and all that.

They had certain sections that were really wild and overgrown and other sections.

15:28

They explained that they, they time their mowing.

So they said it looks messy in this section, but we time our mowing to allow certain plants to blossom because that encourages the butterflies.

And they, they explained that they, that cemetery supported, I think they said 50 species of solitary bee, which I was, I didn't even know there were 50 species and I think 11 species of endangered butterfly.

15:52

They listed all the, the animals and plants that were being nourished by a cemetery.

And I, I just think that's really beautiful.

I think what's so beautiful, but beautiful about them sometimes is that like you said, they are this world.

They can be this world that you step into where it is almost like stepping back into nature.

16:13

This is this is something entirely almost preserved from the day-to-day hustle and bustle and the the fast pace of of life and.

You know you.

Can be surrounded by nature.

I mean, that was partly why they were constructed and built in the way that they were so that you could have this wonderful landscape and the flowers that represented the various different things that they do and the trees that depict various thoughts and motifs and and ideas and themes.

16:45

You know, it was it was a way of, of stepping into this environment and like you said, enjoying this environment whilst at the same time being able to pay your respects and and really be at peace with those that are buried there, those that have passed away and been and been buried there.

17:07

It's an environment to be shared.

And I think that's very much something that you can appreciate when you you do get to step back into places of these real beauty and uniqueness compared to the rest of what we often have to face day-to-day.

Yeah, You know, you just reminded me as you were speaking.

17:23

It just reminded me of a woman who I had, I shared her book with my newsletter.

I think it was last year or the year before.

But her father died during COVID.

And so like so many people, they weren't able to have a big family gathering afterwards.

17:41

And it really bothered her because I think that was part of her family's tradition, you know, And when traditions are disrupted, I mean, COVID disrupted everything, right?

So she ended up putting a wildlife camera facing her dad's grave and took photos from it for a whole year, showing the change of the scene, the scenery, like the flowers coming out and then drooping and then the leaves coming out and then changing color and the deer walking by and, and this and that.

18:12

And she made an art book out of it.

And for her, that was her way of visiting from afar, I suppose you could say, and and staying in touch with nature.

But yeah, you just reminded me of that.

I thought that was a beautiful thing she did.

But I think it connects us to the earth, to nature and that process of grief, you know, that passing of.

18:32

Time.

In a very still, beautiful way, you know, it can just allow you those moments of peace that I think like you, like we've touched upon that nature can really provide and these quiet spaces can, can provide that really do mean they are for people to to be able to enjoy as part of that grieving process.

18:55

For it to be their space, for it to be our space for it to be a communal space of quiet reflection and, and moment to take pause.

And you know, we've obviously had in the United Kingdom recently, the remembrance service, you know, November 11th, where we we remember those that fought and died in the world wars.

19:15

And of course, you know, you have similar moments like that where something can be marked as a day, but a cemetery is a place where you can mark those days every single day.

And I think that's something that really does need highlighting that these are these are places where we can have those moments of reflection.

19:33

So it's not just one day of the year.

Exactly.

It's a very special space and you've expressed it so well.

You mentioned earlier that you obviously part of what interested you in kind of returning to cemeteries and exploring cemeteries was partly to do with the symbolism that you can see on the different gravestones and you know, the symbolic nature of that and the art of that.

19:59

What inspired you to to want to go into researching that more and to create and write your book about understanding symmetry symbols?

Oh, well, yeah, a lot of it was my own curiosity about the meaning of the cemetery symbols.

20:17

And they, you know, I have a bird book, I have more than one bird book.

I have plant books.

I have a book, I live in Texas, so I have a snake book, you know, to identify.

There's all sorts of guidebooks you can get.

And there's that old saying about, you know, write the book that you want to read.

20:35

And I really think that's what I ended up doing with understanding Cemetery symbols because I, I have a lot of books about cemeteries and I have a lot of books about symbolism, but I didn't really have a book that was small enough to carry in my purse or glove box of the car.

20:53

You know, a lot of my symbol books are just massive.

You can use them as a doorstop quite easily and they're wonderful, but they're they don't zone in just on a cemetery aspect of it.

I wanted that kind of guidebook.

So that's where I was like, you know, maybe I need to, because when I would turn another thing that really inspired me and actually a big catalyst was when I would look up what cemetery symbols meant on YouTube or just the Internet in general, I would get a lot of misinformation, like things I knew were just wrong.

21:23

And I'm like, oh, good grief, people are just making things up.

This is not good.

I, you know, you have to be careful when you do research anyway, I'd really do try to find good resources and, and I wanted to provide a good resource for people who were visiting cemeteries because I think it can be, as we talked about and expressed, I think it could be a really wholesome family activity just even if you're not for grieving.

21:46

I mean, I'm, I visit cemeteries all the time for fun and people don't usually hear cemetery and fun in the same sentence, but that's really what I wanted.

I wanted to write a book that would be not a dry guide.

I wanted it not intimidating.

I wanted it to have information.

And I wanted the book to inspire you to go, wow, I pass by a cemetery every day and maybe I'll take this book and just go see what I can find there.

22:11

So for, you know, for people then who are maybe curious about how they could get started, maybe about learning more about cemetery symbols, where would you kind of point people to maybe begin that process of, of where to start?

Yeah, that's a good question, because a lot of times when I tell people I write and research about cemetery symbols, they kind of get this murky look on their face.

22:37

I can tell that they're thinking it's symbolism.

It's just really obscure and too mysterious to understand.

It's like that, you know, they think I'm like Robert Langdon from The Da Vinci Code or something, and I'm creeping around, which, you know, I do like that whole idea of mystery and everything.

22:52

That's fun.

But really in reality, symbols all come from a place of maybe a poetic metaphor, but they all ultimately make sense when you go back far enough.

I like to tell people.

Some good examples, I guess, are Ivy, Ivy.

23:09

Like when you see it depicted on a headstone, it stands for, you know, an Ivy plant.

It's always green and it clings to things, right?

So it stands for enduring friendship.

That's one of the symbol, symbolic meanings of it.

23:25

That friend you have who's with you through sick and sin, they've cling to you through life's travails.

That that's why Ivy, you know, stands for for friendship, enduring friendship.

Another one is ferns.

A Fern doesn't grow in the bright sun.

23:40

The Fern grows in the shadow of a of a big tree.

And so Fern stands for humility, being humble.

And it's like, oh, so once you dig into it a little bit, you realize that all the symbols that you come across, they actually have a very interesting reasoning for why they mean they're not just slapped.

24:00

The meanings just aren't slapped onto an item.

I think ferns should mean this.

I think Ivy should mean that.

Well, it comes from a, a place that I think is gets us thinking about life in a little bit more metaphorical terms, a little more poetic terms.

I, I think our ancestors were a little more attuned to poems.

24:18

Our ancestors often memorized poetry and poems could have a big impact on society.

So I think in some ways we've forgotten that.

So I think that's one reason.

Yeah, we have emojis now, but they're they're very literal.

Maybe too literal.

I mean this like I'm saying these symbols are they mean something.

24:37

It's symbolic, but I like the poetic aspect to it.

But anyway, when someone tells me they want to get started learning about cemetery symbols, I tell them that hands are a really good place to start because we can all and identify what a hand looks like.

You know, you might feel nervous, like do I really know what this kind of a passion flower looks like or whatever.

24:58

But you know, everyone knows what a hand looks like.

So you could start with them because I mean, a hand can mean, it can mean charity, it can mean sacrifice.

It can let you know if the deceased was married or even maybe if they died suddenly.

I can give you a good indication of that if you're doing research.

25:15

So that's kind of how I got my husband interested into it because I was constantly dragging us to different cemeteries.

And I started pointing out what the hands meant.

And then the next thing I knew, he started get into it.

Like, have we seen a hand that does this?

What about this kind of handshake?

And it's, it's really fun.

25:31

And now he's really knows quite a lot about cemetery symbols and will point out interesting things to me.

I do have when people follow my newsletter or sign up for my newsletter, I do offer them a free little PDF guide and it, it gets you started.

25:47

It tells you what the meaning of the hands are so that it shows several photographs and some different of common hands that you might see in a cemetery.

And so it's a, it's a good starting off point, I think.

And I think just following on from what you were just talking about, I think the symbolism of it, being able to spot and identify some of these things.

26:08

I mean, it is visual storytelling.

And as human beings, we, we connect with stories.

We are fascinated by stories.

We have our own stories.

We have our stories from our local community, you know, more historical stories, stories that are unique to our to our history, our culture, and then stories we enjoy from elsewhere.

26:31

And here you have art telling stories.

And I think there's something really magical when you can notice these things and when you start to maybe begin to understand them.

Like you said, starting off with something like the hand symbol and noticing the difference in what that might suggest and the themes that that brings up.

26:51

I think it just suddenly starts to bring that gravestone to life.

You notice that, you start to understand it.

It enriches the story behind the words that you see carved into the stone.

And again, I think there's something really beautiful in that deeper understanding that it just allows us to connect to a person, to connect to their word, to the words, their brief kind of detail of their life.

27:21

Suddenly you start to know more, you feel more, you connect more with that person, whether you are related to them or not.

And I think that's the real power that really kind of having this understanding of this can bring.

It is this visual storytelling that I think like like words on a page can just really hook you in and have that emotional connection to the words here.

27:48

It is through the imagery, through the the pictures that we see carved into the stone.

Oh, definitely.

And there are some headstones that I've come across that have just lured me in.

And it wasn't anybody who was a famous person in their day, but I got so curious.

28:03

The headstone itself told such an interesting story, like you said, and it brings to life that person.

You think about them and then you go home and then I'm like, wow, I want to look this person up and find out what more about them.

Not that I'm even related to them.

They just they captivated me.

28:19

There's some people that I've, I've met in, in quotes, you know, in this, in the cemeteries.

I'm like, gosh, I wish, you know, if I had a wish, I would love to be able to invite you to dinner, have a dinner party with all these people who I've, you know, like learn their life story because some of them are just so fascinating.

28:35

Sometimes it's just their epitaph too.

This one man, his epitaph, all it said was black sheep of the family.

But I enjoyed my life.

I thought, oh, my goodness, I bet he had some stories to tell.

You know, it's just it raised the question, what does he mean by that?

28:50

And he enjoyed his life.

Well, I'm glad he didn't feel guilty for being the black sheep.

I mean, just that little sentence kind of gives you a little taste, a little entry into what his personality might have be.

Yeah, I think they suddenly become much more colourful, don't they?

You see, you see that person more as a three-dimensional real person.

29:08

And again, I just think there's something very connective about that.

And you know, I think we all have a fascination.

I think most people have a fascination with genealogy or programmes where you can follow somebody, you know, celebrity where they're digging deep into their to their ancestry and we're fascinated by what things they uncover.

29:28

I think you get the same experience.

You can have the same connection and the same experience when you start to explore just these stories that you can identify these, you know, these markings, the things that we can pick up on from just a few things engraved into a gravestone.

29:45

It's the same.

It's the same thing that I think draws us to it, that we see in in other walks of life, in other things that fascinate us when it comes to human stories.

Yeah, it's like, you know, getting back to how I thought I didn't like history when I was a kid because it was very dry and impersonal.

30:01

But when you it's the individual stories, I mean, not everybody's famous, so somehow they can be the most boring people.

It's the individual lives of the past and the things they did and the adventures they had that can really be, I find quite fascinating and and really make me feel more connected to a different area and it's history.

30:23

And again, you know, just coming back to the fact that I've obviously had the real pleasure of being able to listen to other talks that you've given in the past.

I know that, you know, again, as part of some of the the lectures and things that you've given online, you know, you've really emphasized and mentioned that, you know, context is key when exploring these historical burial grounds.

30:45

Do you want to give some examples of of how you know the same symbol that in one location can mean one thing, but then somewhere else can mean something completely different based on, you know, the historical, the religious, or the geographic context?

31:02

Oh sure, there are a few symbols like that and it's interesting too.

I mean symbols they can affect us on a non verbal level.

I think there are certain symbols that if you see them like here's AI think a good example is the swastika.

I think if you, if I saw a swastika, if my next door neighbor suddenly had a swastika on their house, I would glance out in the morning and my blood pressure would rise and I would be probably feel scared.

31:29

Because in our day and age in in here in America, if I see a swastika, I tend to think, oh, this person's a neo Nazi.

It has some, it's connected to Hitler in some way.

But in reality, when we place it into, I mean, I'm not saying I want my neighbor to do that, but I'm saying when you see something like that, you have to think of where you are geographically, the culture and the religion.

31:54

Last year at this time, in fact, I was in Japan and I was using Google Maps to find my way to different Buddhist temples and they were all marked on the maps by swastikas because two Buddhists, The swastika stands for the four foot steps of Buddha.

32:12

I'm probably butchering that a little bit, but the the bottom line is that the swastika has been around for a long time, well before World War 2 millennia in fact.

Early Christians in the second and 3rd century used the swastika to be a cross.

32:29

It's been found in Christian catacombs, Native Americans.

I was at a Native American museum in Arizona and before World War 2 that it was common for them to have baskets that had swastikas on them because it was part of their creation myth about the OR their creation.

32:47

Yeah.

Their myth about the the four directions.

So Hindus use it too.

So this is a really, you know, a obvious example of where you have to be pretty careful of your context.

But I, I think a less inflammatory example, because there are plenty would be, I'd say the pitcher.

33:09

So like a pitcher, like a, you know, picture that you put water in.

So if you, when you see a picture on a headstone, you need to think context.

So OK, most, a lot of times cemeteries will have burial like maybe Catholics are buried in one section.

33:27

A lot of times they're, you know, real different religions, religious sections.

So make sure am I in a Jewish cemetery when I see the picture or am I in a like a Christian cemetery when I see the picture?

So if you're in a Jewish cemetery, then the picture at the grave site, it implies that that person descended from the tribe of Levi because the Levites would wash the hands of their priests with water.

33:54

However, if you're in a Christian section of a historic cemetery and I there's one kind of near me that has this really fabulous monument.

And as part of it, there's this marble picture that's kind of tipped to its side and as if it's dumping out water and it's, it's not in a Jewish section.

34:14

And in this case, when you see a picture, it usually stands for a woman and of who was a very strong moral.

So someone who was maybe really generous, known to be self sacrificing, very probably volunteer work, very charitable.

And also if it was during the time period when America outlawed liquor, it probably meant that she was a prohibitionist.

34:37

So it's the same symbol, but you, you have to take into account that context.

That's why I'm always saying context is key.

People sometimes are frightened or upset by symbols they see, but they haven't taken in the context of the religion and the time period and the geography.

34:54

And that really help explain it.

That's a problem I have.

Sometimes I love it when people send me photos of a symbol, a cemetery symbol, and they're like, hey, Tui, what does this mean?

But it will just be a zoomed in picture of a picture maybe.

So then I have to e-mail back and say, OK, where were you?

35:10

Can you zoom out and show me the whole scenario?

We you zoom in on something and you need to step back and see the full picture.

I mean, I think that's sort of metaphorical and very literal in this case.

But again, I think it comes back to what we've been talking about.

35:26

It really helps you to understand the wider story, the the wider context of of the culture, the the beliefs, the historical period of this time frame.

And of course, again, like you said, it brings history to life.

35:44

I think you can understand something about the day-to-day lives of the beliefs of the the people who are buried in that part of the cemetery or, or, or across that particular gravestone.

You know, the Marks and the symbols really do help to capture and note some of that for us in a way that I think again, is very connective.

36:05

But it is, as you say, context is key.

It's about making sure that we don't allow our own biases and our own understanding to completely change that narrative.

Let's try and understand what it shows in that context of who that person was and where where the site is exactly is is really important as you said.

36:31

As the days grow shorter and the winter nights draw near, the chill in the air invites us to gather closer to the fire where the flickering flames dance.

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36:53

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40:19

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40:36

Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

So what would you say then are some of the the commonly misunderstood cemetery symbols?

40:54

Oh oh boy.

There's a few one that's kind of funny that this happened.

Like when I'm leading a a cemetery tour and we're walking along, people will suddenly go, hey, Chewie, come here.

Look at this headstone.

There's a dollar sign on it.

Was this guy Rich?

41:10

It just makes me laugh because usually, well, really, I've never seen a dollar sign on a headstone.

Every single time someone has said that, what they've actually been seeing is it's called a Christogram.

It's a type of abbreviation.

This was the letters IH and S, but it's actually the, the Greek letters that look like IH and S for us.

41:32

And they, that's how you spell the word Jesus, which is Greek for Jesus.

So having IHS kind of woven together, that's just a ancient shorthand for for Jesus.

So, but it is funny because people will often mistake that for a taller sign.

41:48

But I'd have to say really the one that I get the most emails about and the most people are most upset about at least once or twice a year, usually this time of year because they've been on, you know, spooky season, quote UN quote.

People think about cemeteries with that in mind, and they will be I will.

42:08

One time I got an e-mail from someone in the headline.

It the subject line was just was grandma help?

Was grandma a witch?

I think is what it was.

It was something they were very concerned.

They had been going actually doing some genealogy.

They went to see their ancestors headstone and on it they saw, you know, gasp, A5 pointed star, otherwise known as a pentagram.

42:31

And to top it off, in between the rays of the pentagram, it's spelled the word fatal, which just sounds so scary.

Oh, no, fatal.

But you know, I kind of blame Hollywood, you know, movies for this.

Once again, context is key if you are watching a scary movie.

42:48

And I, I watch a good scary movie and, and there's a scene where maybe they enter a house and there is a pentagram scrawled on the wall in blood or something like that.

All right, we know that that's, that's Hollywood shorthand for something evil or scary or a witch in a bad witch kind of thing.

43:07

But in reality, you're standing on, most cemeteries are on, you know, there's a religious area you're, you're standing in like the, well, I don't know, the Methodist section of a cemetery.

They're not going to suddenly have a satanic emblem right there in a granite stone.

43:25

What that means instead is it's means that your grandma was a member of the order of the Eastern Star.

So that pentagram is stands for the Eastern Star, the star from the east that led the three wise men to Jesus.

And what's interesting is that fatal stands for fairest among 10,000 all together.

43:46

Lovely.

So nothing, nothing nefarious there.

But yeah, that one has caused a lot of people to have an upset stomach or be worried when they find it.

And I gosh, I come across misinformation about that.

I've seen YouTube videos and I, I just can't even comment on them.

44:03

People send them to me.

Hey, Tui, check this out.

This guy found a witch and this guy was walking through, I kid you not, just walking through a cemetery.

And he was commenting on what the symbols quote, UN quote meant, but he was just making stuff up.

And when he saw when he goes, oh, well, here, see, this is obviously a witch.

44:19

A witch is buried here.

And you could tell.

And I'm like, oh, good grief.

I mean, that is that is one of the reasons I wrote my book and one reason I tried to do what I do because I, I think a lot of times people just don't know what something means.

And rather than really find out which we have a lot more resources at our hands than we did 20 or 30 years ago.

44:38

So it's not so much of an excuse anymore.

And then they, they just kind of make up something silly like that and it, it's unfortunate.

And I think it's unfortunate because often times that narrative can really stick.

I mean, we know how quickly misinformation can spread.

44:55

And unfortunately, often times the real nature of the story can become lost because, you know, the saturation of misinformation can can quickly over, over kind of overwhelm if you like, the true purpose and the true, the true narrative behind that symbol.

45:13

And so this is where I think it's really important, you know, with, with the work that you do and, and others in really bringing again, this symbolism to greater understanding and awareness is so key because it is, you know, it would be such a shame for it to become almost a lost type of art where we, we lose the meaning of, of what these things mean and what they represent, because it's a huge part of our shared histories and our, and our shared understanding.

45:40

And I think it can quickly lead into some quite serious problems.

I think that brings us to a really important topic, which is urban legends and cemeteries and and some of the dangers that can come from these legends and these misinformation that then lead to things like issues like vandalism.

46:00

Oh, exactly.

And a lot of these quote UN quote witches graves.

That's a problem.

Often times if there's a really unique or unusual mausoleum or monuments or maybe kind of a unusual epitaph that people don't really understand, people make up stories about it.

46:20

And I mean, when I was a little kid, I was guilty of this too.

My friends and I in that same cemetery that, you know, saved our life, we, we had made-up stories about some of the different tombs.

We had one that we said was a vampire and one that was a witch and one, you know, Unicorn, all these different stories.

But we knew that we they were stories.

46:37

We weren't, we were just we knew that we were playing make believe as you do as a kid.

Well, the problem is with these urban legends is some of them they they stick, they make up an urban legend about a certain monument and it's usually it's never really a positive thing.

46:55

They never say, Oh, this person was such a hero.

They were a wonderful person For some reason.

It's usually this person was a murderer.

This person was a vengeful black magic practitioner.

And so they, they say something like that.

And so then people will go to the cemetery and do things like desecrate the tomb.

47:13

Essentially they'll chip.

I've, I've read once where they actually chipped pieces of it off.

They mess it up.

And this is very upsetting to the families.

Even if the person died 100 years ago, it's still someone in your family tree.

And I, I actually did write about this on my blog a while ago and I shared a link to this family who even like it was someone in the 1800s in their, in their family, their small family cemetery, which you know, when you lived out Texas is very big.

47:45

And if you lived out on a ranch, you wouldn't bury your family in town.

You'd have a plot in your ranch where you, you had your family cemetery.

So they, these people had been doing genealogy.

They discovered their family cemetery was all overgrown and they lovingly restored it.

48:02

And we're doing all sorts of wonderful things.

And unfortunately, a story got spread that there was a witch there and people started coming and just, they were fine.

You know, burnt candle wax all over the headstone, maybe a, a Ouija board, just really ridiculous things.

48:18

And then also they started chipping, you know, the headstone to pieces and all for a woman who had, I think she had died in childbirth or some from some present, you know, preventable disease.

While as a, when they first moved there, like she'd have been a young woman, there was no reason to slander her like that.

48:36

And there's another one here that really gets me.

I always talk about in North Texas, it's Smiley's grave.

And there's a whole family there, a family of five.

And they're all buried in the same plot.

And everyone, there's a very popular urban legend saying that Mister Smiley killed his entire family.

48:54

And so he and then himself.

And I know that type of thing does happen, but that's not the case with the smileys.

It was super easy to research.

All I did was I went to a newspaper archive.

I typed in the death date because it was right there in the headstone.

And the first thing to pop up was that a series of nighttime tornadoes had gone through Texas at that time.

49:15

And I shortly I was able to find in several articles that listed the Smiley family by name saying that they had been killed in a night time tornado, which I find terrifying.

And I think the real story is terrifying as it is.

And it's true.

So yeah, I, I do think that people need to be really careful with getting, you know, I, I love a good story like anyone else, but you really don't slander these poor people.

49:38

You're slandering them at the best, and then and then it leads to vandalism at the worst.

And it completely erases the real history, which is really tragic.

As you, you know, you rightly pointed out, sometimes their story is so much more than then the the legend that somehow gets attached to them.

49:56

You know, in really dire circumstances that, as you kind of pointed out, can lead to some pretty horrific vandalism that people, I just don't often kind of step back from and realise the damage that that does to the family who may still survive, you know, be surviving family member and see that.

50:14

But also for the local community.

I mean, it's, it looks awful if it can feel really awful when you see something like that within your own community, even if you have no connection to that grave and to that person's story, you can't help but feel that's that's really wrong when I think you see it and it's something you see often.

50:34

And I think sometimes people really just need to step back and put themselves in that position.

If that was someone I cared about, would I want that to be their story in 100 years time or 50 years time?

Would I want something like that to be how my loved one is remembered?

50:52

Exactly.

Yeah, And you know, I can think of just kind of following on from the two examples that you gave.

I can think of the the classic example that came out of this where you know, the, the urban legend almost grieved from the film, which is the The Conjuring where you had the, the grave marker in the memorial for who in the, in the story in the film version was, you know, the, the ghostly figure that is killing the children and causing all of the activity in this ghost story.

51:28

But in real life, she was just a normal person who, who sadly passed away.

And suddenly her grave marking her grave marker was being vandalized.

It had to be replaced several times.

It was being destroyed because her story got tangled up with this murderous woman in life who was killing the people around where she lived.

51:49

And then, you know, it's, it's become a fact.

And it couldn't in the real history.

But sadly, that led to complete desecration of her gravestone more than once.

Horrible.

Which is awful, absolutely awful.

And that's the power of things like social media and films and how it can really saturate people's consciousness and sadly, oftentimes plant this misinformation again that we've been talking about.

52:19

Yes.

You know, I, my dad was an editor and so I was, it's interesting.

So I was even as a kid, I was told taught kind of how to vet the information I got.

Like I might say something I'd heard at the dinner table and my dad would be like, well, where did you hear that?

52:37

OK, and how did that happen?

What sort of source is that?

If I quoted someone, I'd be like, and then Karen said blah, blah, blah.

My dad would say, did she really say that or are you paraphrasing?

And I look back at that and I'm really grateful that he taught me how to be careful about the information.

52:55

I think it's made me a better researcher.

A lot of things that my dad taught me and kind of ingrained in me.

And I think that that's in this day and age, especially when we get can get such quote UN quote information from so many different sources.

I think we all need to learn how to vet it in order to avoid being, being scammed or just taking in urban legends, believing them it's truth, learning how to find verifiable sources or trustworthy sources.

53:22

And I, I think a lot of that, I'm fortunate that my dad being an editor, he just would hold me to journalistic standards.

Even though I was 10 years old, He would catch me out on quick jumping to conclusions and not really doing my research.

And I think that that would be a really good thing to make part of every curriculum these days, even if you're not going into journalism, just to keep from falling for these urban legends and and falling for scams.

53:49

And I also think like we've been touching upon, you know, remembering that these are special places.

These are sacred places.

And, you know, they, they really do reflect, you know, these cultural attitudes, these they are places to remember, to mourn, to grieve.

54:06

They are places, as we've talked about right at the at the beginning, they are places for all living things.

You know, let's, let's treat them with that kind of respect and this and the people who are buried there with respect as well and their stories.

Definitely.

I totally agree.

54:22

And, you know, just kind of following on from that point, you know, thinking about how they can reflect these cultural attitudes towards grief and mourning.

You know, how do you, how would you kind of say that you know, the symbols, the architecture, the sculpture help to express some of those themes?

54:41

Well, I think it's really interesting.

I'd say when you visit a cemetery, cemeteries tell you a lot about what a society values, what the locals think is important.

They tell you a lot.

Yeah.

They tell you a lot about what we value as a culture.

54:59

So in the 1800s, nineteen hundreds, especially to have a grand family monument was important because at that, in that time period of cemeteries were really an expression of civic pride and family pride.

55:15

And so the they when people came to town, even in America, you, you figured that they were going to visit your cemetery while they were there because they were going to see and in the cemetery by the grand monuments, they would look around and they would see, Oh, I see the name Sanders a lot.

55:32

They must be a prominent family in town.

And you yourself, I think people back then cared a lot more about their family name.

Like, I don't find myself wondering, oh, am I doing well for the Snyder family name?

I yeah, I don't, I don't know people who feel the same about their family name.

55:53

And so I could think, but people 100 years ago did like, let's say they are 150 years too.

I mean, the in that time period, if you got a, a windfall, you would think nowadays you could have maybe.

Oh, wow, I won a little money and a prize.

I might go on vacation, but back then you might think, wow, I got a chunk of change here.

56:13

You know what, I am going to build a really grand monument that tells people how cool the Snyders are.

So they will instill a little bit of, you know, pride.

And when people walk by, they're going to know that, wow, I was a prominent citizen in my little town.

56:28

And so that's one aspect of the that's expressed when you walk through his cemetery.

It kind of shows you sort of the town's self esteem.

It tells you how they treat the different citizens.

Do they have different or people of different religions?

56:46

How different, how segregated are they do how are the rich and the poor treated?

I think a lot of that.

How are the different races and groups treated?

How, how is you can see a lot of that expressed culturally just through a simple walk through a cemetery.

57:03

I think today, you know, today it's different and our our cemeteries reflect this.

Today.

We don't visit cemeteries for the most part.

Well, if you're me, you're visiting them all the time.

But, but most people don't visit cemeteries unless they're grieving or they're at a funeral or, you know, worse comes to worse, they are the one in the, in the coffin.

57:27

Modern cemeteries, like I said, they reflect our detachment.

We, we, we don't visit cemeteries very much.

They nowadays in a modern cemetery, it looks from at a glance.

You might think it's a golf course at a glance.

You might just think it's a flat expanse of lawn sometimes, because nowadays they'll have flat markers and other people maintain them.

57:50

And those flat markers are so that people can mow really close or even even mow right over them.

So I think that's a real metaphor right there that's showing that a detachment from the whole idea of death, the detachment from grieving.

58:08

One thing that I think is pretty cool or interesting, and I think a lot of people do study this aspect with historic cemeteries is the aspects of especially in the Victorian era, the the strict rules they had for mourning, especially for men.

I mean, women, men had to get back to work pretty quickly.

58:24

But but even men were you were allowed to grieve maybe a little more openly, a little more deeply in some ways.

Like there was something that they call, I think they called it communing with the dead.

Where some people, and I've, I've seen some, not every mausoleum, it's like this, but I've seen some that have doors you could go in and sit next to your loved ones casket.

58:48

And I read accounts where a woman might go there every day and just read Bible verses or read a story to her deceased son.

President Abraham Lincoln even wanted he visited the, the tomb that his son, you know, it was very upsetting.

And after his son died, he would commune and, and visit his, him in his tomb quite often.

59:09

I, I don't remember how often it was, but, but this wasn't considered, you know, nowadays it would be considered disturbing and something a little mentally ill even, I suppose.

I think.

What was it?

I just actually, I just read last month that was it.

59:26

Oh.

Elvis Presley's daughter, Lisa Marie Presley, when her son died, she actually kept his body in his bedroom on ice.

You know, it had the the Funeral Home helped her with this and for about a month until she was finally ready to say goodbye.

59:43

And who's to say that that's wrong when you're grieving?

I think we can get very judgy about how people grieve.

I do think there was maybe more leeway and more, more acceptance of different styles of grief maybe in the past.

But I do really find it interesting that I, I, I, as I was saying, I guess the bottom line is I think you walk into a cemetery and it really does tell you.

1:00:05

It tells you much more than you realise about the the values of the of that area and the people there and, and I think now they really do reflect our detachment.

And I think you're absolutely right.

And I think it shows that evolution, that change, that shift from, you know, death and dying and grief was so much part of everybody's, everybody's day-to-day life compared to now where we try and distance ourselves from as much as possible to the point where we don't really talk about it.

1:00:34

Many people don't plan for it in the way that they used to, certainly doesn't have the grandiose morning rituals that we used to have.

And so it is much more of a of a topic that carries real stigma, real fear in a way that it wouldn't have done 100 years ago.

1:00:51

And I think it also reflects how, you know, that change in society whereby mourning and that that sense of loss could be expressed and felt by all.

So these were events that pulled an entire community together.

And now it can be much more isolating.

1:01:09

And, you know, again, I think it's something we saw very acutely through things like COVID, whereby these losses were something you you felt in even smaller groups because of the nature of what you could and couldn't do as part of that grieving process.

I think we have that anyway.

1:01:24

I think, you know, this is something that is is experienced typically now by much smaller groups of people as opposed as opposed to the large gatherings.

And I think that really does reflect a lot of shifts in societal changes towards the topic of what happens to us when we pass away.

1:01:43

Definitely.

And yeah, I think in America, especially the Great Depression, people had to move into the cities.

And so the there rather than living in a small family unit where you tended your own grave plot, you you move too far away.

If you had to move to the big city, transportation was a lot harder than even if it wasn't such a great distance, you might not to be able to get back and tend the graves.

1:02:06

So I think that's a big reason that we have, you know, there's a lot of reason, a lot of factors that played into it.

But I do want to say though, that I conversely, on the one hand, while I say that I feel like we are becoming more detached, I also have to say I do see a shift the other way.

I think there's a bit of a renaissance right now with people visiting cemeteries.

1:02:28

I actually had so many fun cemetery events here in Texas this last month.

There were festivals, outdoor festivals that I had two in one day to go to where they had like vendors set up and they had people re enacting the lives of different people who had lived in the cemetery.

1:02:46

And they, you know, they had food trucks and they had face painting.

They even had a costume contest for dogs.

I mean, this is at a cemetery and I, I think I went to eight or nine of those this last month, different types of festivals.

I went to a Dia de Los Muertos event in a beautiful Oakland cemetery in Dallas where they had people, you know, the people dressed in the bright colors.

1:03:09

They had vendors, they had folkloric dance.

And I, I'm actually have subscribed to several historic cemeteries across America that have newsletters and I'm always going, Oh my gosh, I wish I could go to this or that.

1:03:26

There's one in New York where in their catacombs, they had an acapella group come and give a performance there.

And I can only imagine how wonderful the acoustics were and what an amazing setting that would be.

There's some, some cemeteries actually have outdoor movie and there was one where they, they did an art gallery.

1:03:49

They did, they did an art showing, they had a lot of artists buried there and so they decided to show the artwork of the deceased artists, which I thought, wow, what a great thing to do in the cemetery, which I thought was cool.

So I think people are starting to kind of clue in.

1:04:04

There's like a growing appreciation for how these cemeteries can nurture us in kind of a modern time.

When I think we, like you say, we can be very isolated and very detached.

I mean, we, you know, what wonderful to connect online.

But I think getting out and going to a local cemetery event is, is a good thing to do as well.

1:04:25

You know, I think, and I do see a lot more of these events happening and it really makes me happy.

So do you have any, you know, particular icons, you know, favorite cemetery symbolisms or sculptures that you know, particularly move you or inspire you that you've come across as part of your your travels and as part of your research that you've done over the, you know, the length of time that you've been engaged and invested invested in, in exploring cemeteries?

1:04:54

Oh, gosh, yeah, I do.

I have a lot of them, actually.

I, oh, I I love, I have a new appreciation for statuary in general.

Like I can see the same statue inside a museum, but when I see it outside in the elements, maybe it's the bronze and has a bit of patina from the elements or it's marble and it has a little bit of stains or some lichen.

1:05:16

Something about that I find really just beautiful.

But if you came to my house, you would quickly appreciate the fact that I I love skulls.

I am a sucker for a good skull.

Anytime I see a skull or a skull and crossbones.

But as far as favorite symbols, you know, one of my favorites, which is a little more obscure, Yeah, I really like.

1:05:37

OK, sometimes you will see an arch archway, which stands for the arch, stands for triumph over death.

And, and in the center of the arch, you'll see a keystone.

And you can't make, structurally, you can't make an arch without a keystone.

1:05:54

So it's a very particular shape.

And I sometimes see those and that in the keystone, it will have the word love inside it, which I just think is so beautiful because it's saying we can't make this arch without love.

1:06:10

We can't triumph over death without love.

We can't have the strength to connect like this and, you know, create an archway without love.

I, I just think that's a really beautiful idea to express.

And then maybe while we're I see, I, I told you I had a time to see one other that I really love because it just gets the point across so abruptly is whenever I see a wings hourglass and one of my friends has a that has a tattoo from a, from cemeteries.

1:06:37

That's his favorite symbol.

But yeah, wings hourglass just to let you know that time flies.

So you better, you better get on with your life and do what you can while you're here.

I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it?

I mean, it's, it's again, it's just the stories that they can help you to connect with.

1:06:54

And it, it's amazing how you can find something beautiful and intriguing in the line of the sculpture.

And like you said, just the colour and the pattern changes that you see because of how long that that's been there and, and how time has weathered it in nature has grown around it.

1:07:11

I mean, again, you can just find beauty in the most strangest, smallest detail that is just really fascinating that I could just spend hours sometimes looking at something that a lot of people would just walk past.

But it's intriguing.

It's beautiful in its own way, I think.

1:07:28

And yeah, I think that's the power that again, this what you see, you know, the sculpture, the art, the imagery, the symbolism can really take and have, you know, that kind of power over you, that hold over you.

Definitely, yeah, it, it is.

I mean, like you said, it's that intersection of time.

1:07:45

It's that extra ingredient.

You know, you see something in a museum and they're they're keeping it in very rightfully, so they're trying to preserve it.

But when it's outside, it just has to deal with the elements.

And so you're it's, it's expressing that as you look at it, you see how time has affected that artwork.

1:08:02

Absolutely.

And just kind of coming together, you know, thinking about the various passions that you've had, you know, you've obviously also written about paranormal experiences and you know, you've, you've authored a book called Paranormal Texas.

If we think about that aspect of what you also like to explore and this this love that you have for cemeteries, you know, where do you stand?

1:08:26

What are your thoughts on the, the haunted cemetery and the stories around haunted cemeteries?

And do you have any have any of your own personal experiences that you know that you could share?

Yeah, yeah, It's funny, OK.

1:08:41

I absolutely love cemeteries and I feel like I'd go there all year round.

I'm visiting cemeteries and I I'm fascinated by the paranormal.

And, you know, I grew up in a haunted house and that's one thing that got me into research was I was just, no one believed the experiences I was having in my house.

1:08:59

So I just thought no one, you know, I'm the youngest.

So they all just thought, oh, what a nice imagination you have.

So that's one thing that got me going to the library and that's what I'm like, OK, I'm going to prove.

I never did really prove anything to my family.

But I that on the one hand, there I am who, who loves the paranormal.

1:09:16

And then on the other hand, I was very resistant to the idea of haunted cemeteries is simply because I, I guess I, I worried about that whole aspect of vandalism or people thinking that that was the only thing about them and that's not my main allure with them.

1:09:35

So I was really, you know, very, I don't know, I had a weird issue with that.

I didn't want to write about haunted cemeteries or anything at first.

But then my friend and I, ironically, we went on a paranormal investigation at this really haunted hotel.

I mean, it was crazy.

1:09:50

I saw like an orb like this with my eyes like a glowing white ball of light just go by.

I don't know what it was.

All sorts of things happened there.

It was really interesting.

And the next day we were just decided they have a beautiful historic cemetery.

So we thought it was about, you know, we had breakfast and then we about 9:30 in the morning, we thought, let's just walk through this beautiful cemetery and take some photos.

1:10:13

And my friend is who I was with.

She's a psychic medium and she's always joking to me that she tells me I'm the Pied Piper because she's when I'll come visit.

If I've just been to a cemetery, she says she can always tell because children, children's spirits will be around me.

1:10:31

She said, you just have a little collection of children's spirits.

They like you kids like me in, in life.

But you know, I don't can't always say on the other side.

So she pointed to this headstone she'd seen and she said to it, You have got to read the epitaph over there.

That's that's someone you would want to know.

1:10:48

And so I go over there and I, I read the epitaph and it says, has this German fella, he'd been born in Germany and he died, you know, moved to Texas.

And it said the epitaph says the orphan's true friend.

I thought, oh, wow, how interesting.

So I'm, you know, kind of hunkering down, trying to get good lighting on it and take a picture of it.

1:11:07

And as I'm squatting down, I suddenly hear children giggling, just like, you know, like kids are giggling.

And I'm thinking, Oh, there's some kids here.

So I, I, you know, I, I stand up and I look to where the voice came from and there's nothing there.

1:11:24

There's just a little tree.

And it's, I still, I run around the tree.

I mean, I do, I don't know.

I was just convinced that there were children there.

And I, at that point, my hair was just standing up on ends.

And I was like, oh, good grief.

You know, I maybe it's time for me to admit that cemeteries can be just as haunted and as any other place.

1:11:44

And in fact, I think one reason that people think of cemeteries as being haunted is, as we've talked about before, they are a place we go and we're actually quiet because other places are like bookstores are quite often, you know, haunted.

I have a lot of haunted bookstores in that paranormal Texas book.

1:12:00

I have a haunted libraries in there and people have to be quiet in a library.

I think we're pretty noisy in general as we go about our daily lives.

So that's my theory as to why.

So cemeteries, I think they're just as haunted as anywhere else, but they're just one of the few places we quiet down.

1:12:18

And yeah, the book Paranormal Texas, I, I wrote it because I wanted a, a travel guide for people to go to places that were actually haunted, but I wanted to give them the actual history, the legitimate history behind each place.

So if they said Joe Blow lived here, I would do research and I'd find out.

1:12:34

And I'd say, no, there was actually some guy named Jim Blow, you know, lived here.

I would try to just kind of set people right.

So before you went with your ghost hunting equipment, at least you'd have some actual history to go along with it.

So yeah.

But I think I think your concern is a valid 1.

1:12:51

And and you know, certainly we saw it in the UK during during COVID when we had so many lockdowns whereby, you know, when you are being restricted from, from any type of gathering in lots of different places.

You know, here's an opportunity to go and hang out in a grave in a graveyard at night, in a cemetery at night.

1:13:10

And unfortunately, it does raise, I think questions that I think does need that greater kind of like deeper dive into, you know, around ethics, around preservation of that site so it's not being trampled and, you know, the the markers aren't being damaged in any way.

1:13:27

You know, we would we wouldn't have, we wouldn't expect someone to walk into someone else's property unannounced and start disrespecting the homeowners in the home.

You know, the same needs to be said of any space, you know, within our communities, within our, you know, within our area.

1:13:43

And I do think it does raise those very important questions around ethics.

If it's, if it's right to do it, if, if it's being done in a respectful manner, that means that the site is being maintained.

1:13:59

The integrity of the site, the integrity of the history is being maintained.

There's nothing that's being done to it that could, like we've said, 'cause these urban legends and these stories to grow, that can then lead to vandalism and all kinds of other, you know, other problems.

1:14:14

And I think that just comes with having a mindful approach to it and having a discussion around it and an awareness of around it, around it.

That only comes, I think with people speaking up and making people aware of what, you know, the consequences sometimes of the damage that can be done by sometimes just not thinking about our own behaviour and, and checking our own behaviour.

1:14:41

And I think, as I say, I think that's an important question that we should all have in the back of our mind if we are interested in exploring these these locations for whatever reason, whether it's as ghost hunters or in some other capacity.

Let's always keep in mind that this is a special space too that deserves to be protected and to ensure that it's going to be there for for longer than us basically.

1:15:06

Definitely that that's one thing that, yeah, it gets to me.

You talk about ghost centers going to cemeteries and I that was, I think it is still a big concern of mine.

And The thing is, you know, the rules, cemeteries always have their rules posted at the gate.

1:15:23

You need to read the rules.

And you need to realize if it says it closes at 5:30, that that applies to those rules apply to all of us.

And let's say you're just dying to do a paranormal investigation there.

OK, you can ask I, you know, I've gone to some cemeteries where they were locked with heavy, you know, the gates were locked and there's, but there was a phone number on the, on the, the, you know, the list of rules.

1:15:51

And I called them and I said, do you ever unlock the gates?

And they're like, oh, hi, why are you there?

I said, oh, I'm an author, I'm writing a book, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, hey, well, here's the you can find the key to the lock if you go back here.

They told me how to get in and this happened to me more than once.

So and I said, why are you, Why are you trusting me?

1:16:07

And they were like, oh, come on, A vandal is not going to call and ask for this information.

So politely.

And they said, we, we have these rules, but we're willing to bend them if we think you'll like behave yourself.

So I earlier like last month, my friend, the same friend I was talking about earlier, the medium teal Gray, she got permission to do a paranormal investigation in the Odd Fellow cemetery up in Denton.

1:16:35

And this is not something they would normally allow.

And it was at night to boot.

But they gave her permission and she had everything very well set up.

We made sure that no one was running around in the dark or anything and no one got injured.

Everything was there was no litter.

1:16:51

I mean it, it just went so smoothly.

So you know that if if if you had just snuck in there and done that, I would have been terrible because it it ruins makes the cemeteries more strict for all of us.

But but when the people take the time to reach out and get permission, you can be surprised the things that can happen.

1:17:10

And sometimes you will even get someone might come along and take you into some off, you know, some locked mausoleum or some really cool thing that you wouldn't have gotten to see otherwise.

So it just, you know, it just bothers me.

If you want to, if you want to research something, really realize that the rules apply to all of us.

1:17:27

Don't break them.

But but but ask.

It never hurts to ask.

Absolutely.

And just kind of coming, coming to some other things and, and projects and things that you've been part of in the last, in the last few months.

And something that I was very jealous of when I was following it through your through your newsletter was your trip that you took to Italy where you were hired as a cemetery tour guide, say very jealous.

1:17:53

It looked incredible.

How how did that opportunity come about?

What was that experience like?

Because it looked amazing.

It looked incredible.

It, it was amazing and I just couldn't believe it.

I was, I was pinching myself.

1:18:09

I'm like, what?

How did this happen and how all it happened was I've have had a newsletter and it's changed as I've kind of found my footing.

I've been doing it since 2014.

And I have a lot of people in Texas on the newsletter.

And, you know, I share what I'm up to, but I also try to share interesting things that other people are doing, other people's projects.

1:18:30

And I, you know, I just kind of anything I think other people would be interested in, I share on it.

And this woman, Lisa Stabkis, who is a tour operator, she organizes these tours and she keeps them to small groups of 12 and under people.

1:18:46

And she does usually they're artists, but she's had photographers or in my case, it was just open to anybody.

You could be an artist or a photographer or just interested in cemeteries because she is.

And so she had actually joined my cemetery maybe like 8 years ago or something.

1:19:01

She's been on there quite a while, and she emailed me maybe five years ago and asked if I would be interested in leading a tour, being a cemetery symbols guide sometime for one of her 10 day tours.

I was like, sure, yeah, I'd love it.

And then nothing happened.

And then suddenly she popped up again last year and said, hey, I would really love to do one.

1:19:22

What do you think of some Italian, you know, cemeteries?

Tell me what 1 she would love to see.

And I, you know, fired off a huge list, which of course we could only do some of them.

And yeah, it was just marvelous.

I mean, I, I would have been jealous of me too.

I was really, I've got to say, it was really a wonderful time.

1:19:41

I learned so much.

I'm still processing everything I learned.

It was so amazing.

And she wants to do another one next year.

I don't think we're doing 1 the year after, but next year.

And I'm very excited because we are going to start the tour on Halloween so that we can be in Rome for All Souls and All Saints Day and see how they, which are a big deal in the Italian cemeteries.

1:20:03

And I, I'm very excited to see how they, you know, how they celebrate those Catholic holidays and everything that goes on.

And we're going to see some Etruscan tomb.

So you should come along, Michelle.

Don't tempt me.

I've I literally got response when you said that's when it was being planned for next year because it just sounds so evocative and, and an incredible experience.

1:20:26

And again, just a real opportunity to appreciate all the things that we've been talking about, the stories, the art, the, the symbolism, these spaces and what they can provide.

I mean, just everything, it just sounds so immersive in in all of those things that we've been trying to capture as part of the of the chat.

1:20:47

And I very tempted.

Very tempted.

I I hope you would come.

And it was great for me too, because I, you know, I obviously was there to teach and I brought like 40 pages of information that I was just constantly, you know, I had done a lot of research, but I learned from the students as well.

It was really interesting.

1:21:03

I mean, one of them knows a lot about Jewish cemeteries and Jewish headstones and so history and all that.

And so I, it was great to learn from them just as well.

So, yeah, it was really wonderful.

I hope you could come.

It would be great.

And you know, obviously for anybody who is listening, how would you say, you know, to anyone who, who would like to follow this up, how can people keep up to date with, you know, with your work, with other travels that you go on?

1:21:30

Where's the where's the best place to to stay to connected with what you're up to?

I would say to go to my website, itsjusttuisnyder.com and from there you'll see, it'll tell you to sign up for my newsletter, which is really, I'm trying to streamline everything because I'm about to go on another big trip and I want to share a lot more as I'm going.

1:21:52

Whenever I travel, I, I spend a few hours every day actually trying to write things up and trying to share because I guess maybe it's because, you know, I, there was quite a long time in my life where I really didn't get to go anywhere.

And I love a lot of armchair travel.

1:22:07

So anytime I get to go somewhere, you know, rather than bring back a bunch of souvenirs, I, I try to, I mean, souvenir just means memory.

So I try to share the cool memories that I'm making along the way and that neat things that I'm seeing with the people, my friends and family back home as much as I can.

So I would say go to my website.

1:22:24

I, my newsletter, I'm really making it now.

So it will be on my Patreon.

So if you, if anyone out there is on Patreon already find follow me on, you know, you can follow me for free on Patreon.

My newsletter will always be a free option on there.

And that's really pretty much the best ways to to keep up with me, I would say.

1:22:43

And I would say that, you know, I've, I've followed you via those routes for, gosh, I don't know how many years.

And they're just wonderful little snippets that come through via your e-mail whereby you get these little glimpses into where you've been and some wonderful photography of, of things that you've come across with the explanations of them and, and what you've been up to.

1:23:04

And it's just a really interesting way to again, experience what knowledge, what understanding, what history these locations can bring in a really fascinating, fascinating way.

So I, I very much recommend them.

1:23:20

And of course, I will make sure to include all of those details that you've mentioned both on the website and as well as part of the, the podcast description notes.

So, you know, I encourage people to come along and see what you're up to and, and sign up for the, for your newsletter, get, get their hands on that free guide that comes with signing up.

1:23:40

And yeah, see if, if this is something that you want to kind of continue exploring.

Maybe this is the beginning of someone's journey into exploring symbolism in cemeteries or or having that greater understanding and love for exploring and and discovering the art and the sculpture that we can we can find in these special sacred places.

1:24:03

And I, I really do prioritize answering when people reply to my newsletter.

I really do prioritize answering their questions.

It's if people, and you know, I love it when people send me emails asking what a certain symbol means, if they're confused because it is fun.

And if I don't know what it means, sometimes I turn it over to my newsletter.

1:24:22

I've done that quite a few times.

In fact, I think I have one coming out of mysterious symbol I couldn't figure out.

And it was my husband actually, this time we figured out what it was, but I will just be like, I'm stumped people.

I don't know what this is.

And I'll put it out there.

And it's just so fun.

We we, we work on it together.

So it's, it could be a really fun activity.

1:24:39

I look forward to meeting making some new friends through through your podcast.

Honestly, Chewy, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you.

Thank you so much for for coming along and finding the time to to share your kind of passion and your understanding and bring this greater awareness to what you do to the people listening to the podcast.

1:25:01

I really appreciate your time in giving that to to the people listening to give that time to, to share those thoughts and ideas and reflections with everyone listening to the podcast.

Well, and thank you again for having me on Michelle, I'm I, you know, last month was so busy.

1:25:19

I'm behind on listening to your podcast, so I'm really looking forward to catching up on that.

But I'm, I'm even more excited that wow, I get to be on it.

Thank you.

I'm really honoured to be on your show because I really like how you do your podcasts.

Well, thank you, Terry, and and like I said, I will make sure to signpost people to those links that you mentioned.

1:25:40

So if anyone's listening, please, you know, if you have an interest, follow this up and you won't be disappointed.

You'll be able to find those links really easily on the website and in the in the podcast description.

And I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

1:26:01

Thank you for.

Joining us on this journey into the unknown.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.

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1:26:18

Until next time, keep your eyes open and your mind curious.