0:30
Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.
I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history.
0:46
Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.
That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.
Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.
1:16
We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.
But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.
Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.
1:40
Feel free to share with friends and family.
The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.
So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.
2:01
Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.
And now, let's introduce today's podcast or guest gather close as we unlock Tales of the past on Haunted History Chronicles.
2:29
Tonight, our spectral journey takes us down many paths from the cobblestone streets of Salem Concorde's Colonial Inn and stepping into the world of Lizzie Borden.
And who better to guide us through these haunted narratives then tonight's guest, Sam Beltrussis.
2:47
With more than a dozen paranormal themed books to his name.
From the acclaimed ghosts of Salem to the haunting mass murders to the ghostly echoes of the American Revolution, Sam Beltrussis has become a luminary in the realm of supernatural literature.
3:04
His ink dances on the edge of reality and the ethereal, painting vivid stories of the unexplained.
You may recognise him from the shock dock, The Curse of Lizzie Borden, but that's just the tip of the iceberg in Sam's eerie repertoire, featuring on a variety of national TV shows such as the travel channels are Haunting, Most Terrifying Places, Haunted Towns and Haunted USA.
3:33
More recently, Sam has appeared in the documentaries The House in Between 2:00 and programs like Haunted by History, Paranormal Night Shift, Most Terrifying With Jason Hawes and the enigmatic Forbidden History.
Tonight we step into some of Sam's literary accomplishments and research, where ghosts are not just mere apparitions, but the echoes of stories begging to be told.
4:00
We explore some of Sam's personal history, where family connections intertwine with the dark tapestry of Salem and the infamous Lizzie Borden.
So dim the lights and brace yourselves as we step into the unknown with Sam Beltrusis.
4:21
Hi Sam.
Thank you so much for joining me this evening.
Thanks for having me.
Do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?
Sure.
So my name is Sam Baltrusas.
I'm the author of 17 historical Beast Ghost books.
4:38
I was a journalist for about 20 years or so before writing my first book, which was Ghost of Boston.
Since then, I've written 17 all together.
I focus mainly on New England, but I have kind of branched out beyond New England with my ghost writers book.
4:55
And I wrote a book called Ghost of the American Revolution.
So I've kind of expanded beyond.
I mean, that's an incredible plethora of work.
I mean, that's that's no mean feat to create that many bodies of work and publish that that many.
But you also write so abundantly for magazines and other places.
5:15
I mean, you, you really are someone that contributes an awful lot to the community in terms of research, in terms of experiences, locations, places and their stories.
I mean, as I say, it's just incredible the amount of work that you've put out there for people to learn from, to enjoy to experience.
5:36
Thank you for Thank you for recognizing that.
Yeah, I my goal really was so I started off as a journalist and when I started writing paranormal themes, history books, I really, I kind of said, you know, when, when, when I was when I was a journalist, I actually would write thousand like 1000 word articles per day.
5:55
So why don't I take that same, you know, approach and approach it to to apply it to paranormal theme books, which is what I've been doing.
And I, you know, I'm really passionate about telling the history and telling the history correctly, which I love that this is what the focus is on with your podcast.
6:12
And so that that's something that I and there's a lot of history to kind of to go through and to discuss.
I just think there's it's such a perfect combination and and relationship because these locations, they have such unique stories and history to show and they go hand in hand.
6:31
But all too often that history, whether it is the the actual foundation history, what's happened, you know on that on that land, in that house in that space gets muddled as does the ghost law.
And I think sometimes it's so important to try and unpick and unravel some of that, because the truth is that is often so much more fascinating and interesting and relevant to someone to to take away and to learn from.
7:02
Absolutely.
And that that is sort of a crux of what I do.
And I I I start off usually like my I try to immerse myself at a location when I when I write about it.
So for example, when I wrote a book on Salem, Goes to Salem was one of my best sellers.
7:19
I actually gave Taurus in Salem for about a year before I started writing the book.
So I try my best to immerse myself into into the location and then I really go out trying to untangle the myths and misconceptions associated with the location.
7:35
And Salem has a lot of, a lot of, a lot of layers to it, and it's actually taken me many years to really untangle those miss and misconceptions.
And I'm still doing it.
And it's kind of been a ongoing passion of mine, focusing specifically on Salem.
But I've done that in other locations too, like Concords, Colonial End.
7:54
I actually worked the overnight shift at the end, so I couldn't immerse myself at that location.
I was just going to say precisely that I think it's really wonderful to see someone so immersed in that location.
And that the last one that you mentioned where you where you said that, you know, you worked the overnight shift, I think is a fantastic way of doing that to be able to talk to staff the people there.
8:19
And yeah, I mean, you must glean so much by having that approach.
And just, yeah, very fascinating insight from a range of different people that way.
Yeah, I think the only way to to really to do it justice is to do that and immersion.
Journalism was something that I did even when I was a journalist.
8:36
So I take that approach where I immerse myself at the location and try to, you know, people do, they've kind of figured out who I am.
So I I can't go in and like be anonymous.
Would I would I go in So when I sign up for say working the overnight shift at Concords Colonial land.
8:52
I was a guest there for many many nights and became friendly with the manager and they hired me because I do work at hotels and it was a a great fit and also working the overnight shift I was able to write the book while I was working.
9:08
So.
So it was kind of, it was great to be able to do both.
So over the the many years of of researching and writing and immersing yourself in these different locations and their stories, have there been particular places, particular stories that you've just really found yourself gravitating towards and really wanting to to share for a particular reason?
9:33
Definitely Salem.
I I think Salem is something that, I'll be honest with you, I didn't really want to write a ghost book on Salem when my publisher approached me back in 2013 because I felt like it was, it was already done.
It's one of those locations that are visited by thousands of people on Halloween and through you know throughout actually throughout the year now.
9:56
So I felt really drawn to the history and specifically of the 20 innocent men and women who were executed for witchcraft in 1692.
So it's I was pulled there, but I didn't necessarily know why I was being pulled to to that story into Salem specifically.
10:15
And now you know the Fast forward years later when my mother was doing research on my family lineage, it turns out that we are related to the Putnam family who were the the major accusers in the Salem witch trials.
10:31
So it kind of all makes sense to me that that I was so passionate about the history.
You know, I would give tours in Salem and I would you know, people would cry on my tours.
It was that emotional and but realizing, you know, with that emotion, realizing that I was related to the ones that accused those innocent people of witchcraft, really kind of rocked my world.
10:53
And so a lot of the stuff that I was drawn to, I found out later that I was actually distantly related to to those topics including, you know, like the Salem Witch trials, the Pudding family and also Lizzie Borden, which is another case that I I knew very well.
11:11
But I also had, you know, kind of like a preconceived idea that Lizzie was guilty, and you had no idea that I was actually related to the Borden family.
So my my world has kind of turned upside down the past three or four years since realizing that I'm related to a lot of the people that I would write about.
11:30
And I was going to say, because I've I've read your piece that you did a little while ago that was printed in Haunted Magazine where you specifically spoke about this personal connection with both of those.
But specifically, you know, going into more detail about Lizzie Borden and and that case and that connection.
11:50
And I mean that's that's some pretty eerie, spooky coincidence to find out that you have these, these connections with these quite profound, well recognised cases worldwide I would say.
And yeah, it must be really quite spooky to find yourself part of that story that you've been writing about, if you like.
12:14
Yeah, it it it it was definitely spooky, but it also kind of made my life make sense, you know?
It was one of those like Eureka moments when my mother told me I, I, I, I the the.
She first told me the Putnam family connection and that that really broke my heart.
12:29
Lizzie Borden was a little bit more like, OK, what what else?
Like like it was it was less shocking because I already had the initial Putnam connection.
Lizzie Borden also made a lot of sense too because just because of, you know, I've always kind of joked that our family was cursed.
12:47
But I also felt like my mother who who's she's Southern and she was like Sam, I think, you know, I I think we're related to Lizzie Borden.
I'm like, OK, mom.
And she actually was able to prove it.
And so yeah, it it was spooky and kind of made everything all, all makes sense at the same time.
13:05
And you know coming back to that article that I just referenced where you're, you're talking about your connection with Lizzie Borden, you go into great detail about investigating at the house.
And one of the things that I think is so important that you talk about in that article that I also think comes through in the books that you present is this sense of needing to connect with the story and the spirits potentially at the heart of that location via means of which they would recognise, you know, something that feels familiar.
13:41
And so you know, you start that article by talking about connecting through seance, which you know, I think for many people who who are in the paranormal field in the community, they know that, but it's not something that they would necessarily utilise as a means of communication.
14:00
I think people can be very dazzled by all the the gadgetry but you know you're presenting something a little bit more different and and as I say just something where you are trying to communicate in a means that would feel appropriate for that time period.
14:18
Which I think is a really refreshing but also very important angle to explore and to to show that investigating doesn't have to be 1 size fits all type thing.
And I don't know if you want to elaborate on that a little bit further as to your your motivations and the the response that you you you gained from really doing it that approach during the investigation.
14:44
Yeah.
So with the Lizzie Borden house, specifically the the murder house in Fall River, it was really important for me to actually, like, I'll be honest with you, I got for many years, I couldn't even step foot inside.
So I was drawn to the case and actually as a journalist actually wrote about the house being converted to a bed and breakfast in the 90s.
15:04
So I've been writing about the story for many years as an investigator.
When I started writing Paranormal Dean books, I I it took me a while to actually coincide because I was something about the location was setting up red flags and I I I would have recurring dreams of a big chunk of my life, kind of replaying the murder.
15:23
So it was a very personal story for me and something that haunted my dreams.
And now that I know that I'm related to the Borden family, it makes more sense to me As far as the investigation, it's it was a long time to get to the point where I was able to.
So I filmed a documentary called Cursa Lizzie Borden with Dave Schrader and Chris Fleming.
15:44
And that was sort of a culmination of many years of it going in that house and investigating.
But the reason why we decided to approach it with as using a seance was mainly because I felt like that that was the appropriate thing to do in that house specifically.
16:01
I tried all other things like you know, traditional, you know, like using a recorder and what we we actually in our investigation we did use traditional recorders.
But I felt like that the seance would have been a great way to communicate with the the mini spirits that were in that location.
16:17
And we also, we filmed the Cursalazy Borden during COVID.
So it was one of those times I felt like there's that there was a desperation in the house that I've never experienced before.
So there was sort of like an urgency when it came to the spirits and the talking to you, not only Lizzie Borden, but to the Abby Borden and Andrew Borden, the the the father and stepmother who were brutally murdered in 1892 and other spirits that came through like Eliza Borden, who I never communicated with before.
16:46
But if you watch the documentary, I actually channeled Eliza Borden, who murdered her children, right next door to the house.
So it was definitely a very emotional investigation.
And you know, I'm, I'm really grateful that I was able to do it with someone like Dave Schrader and Chris Fleming and Luanne Jolly, who was the, the local investigator who helped out our team.
17:07
Because I really felt like it was, it was needed.
And it was, it was, to me, one of the probably the most profound investigations that I've ever been on.
Well, I just think it was, as I say, it was different.
I think there was something very personable about it and I think refreshing to see other techniques being used and utilized as part of that investigation.
17:30
But also something that you just referenced, which is that I think a location like that.
And I think this happens in so many places where it has a reputation or a particular history or pedigree if you like.
The sole focus can sometimes be just one story one aspect of it and there are often so many layers aren't there and and like you just said communicating with other spirits that are connected with that house whether it's other individuals linked to the to the family itself or the the surrounding house.
18:07
And I think that's really important that you know we we are open to that that actually we're open to the the telling of other stories that come through too.
And I think that's what makes your presentation and what you do, whether it is the story of Lizzie Borden in the house or the other research that you've conducted when writing your books, that you're peeling back all of those layers and articulating those, those different elements and not just focusing in on the one bit that I think everyone might might expect, if that makes sense.
18:42
Yeah, absolutely.
And I I think it's with that house specifically.
It has been investigated so much and it's been on so many television shows.
And for me it's I feel like a lot of this, the energy in that house was brought in by other investigators.
And trying to kind of like kind of cut through all that and get to to the actual spirits that I believe still were lingering in the house was really important to me and to the other investigators.
19:10
And trying to kind of decipher what what is sort of what what we call thought forms or created ghosts or created things that are going on in the house because people are expecting to actually encounter Lizzie Borden in that house.
And for for me, like, why would you want to go to a house where your parents were murdered or, you know, like, so it was an I.
19:31
So I was kind of a grappling with that.
And also I did make a promise having had a relationship with my distant cousin before that, I told her I would never call her back to that house.
So there was a lot of guilt associated with the kind of bringing her back to the house that she didn't want to go to.
19:49
I do feel that with the Lizzie Borden case specifically, there was almost like a splinter of Lizzie.
So there is.
And when I say splinter, it's almost like a not like a part of her psyche that psychically imprinted itself in the property.
And I I kind of refer to it as Crazy Lizzie.
20:05
It's sort of a part of her that's sort of the the mad crazy part of her and the true.
Lizbeth Borden, the one that I often communicate with was at her later in life home, which is called Maplecroft, which we also visited in the documentary.
So calling, you know the the what the Lizbeth that I know to the murder house was definitely something that I swear I would never do, but I felt like it was definitely needed to help the other spirits.
20:29
And she did.
She actually did help the other spirits, specifically Eliza Borden's children.
When we were crossing over the youngest one in the in the seance, I think that she was definitely part of that and she should be proud.
Like I said, I think it's really important and appropriate to have these types of of conversations and to share this.
20:49
And you know you just talked about something that I think is really important to to recognize and to understand which is this idea that we as the the investigator or someone just going into a location with the historical interest or a hobby type interest in the paranormal or the history of it.
21:08
You know, we bring in our own emotions and that creates a certain type of energy also.
And I think it's important to to recognize that because you know you just picked up on something that I think is is important, which is this idea that we can create certain types of experiences and energy through what we are, we ourselves are putting out into that space.
21:30
You know if we're expecting to experience a certain type of thing or to have something happen to connect with a certain type of spirit that actually we can conjure that up.
I mean the Philip experiment is a is something that I think for most people they would be aware of.
21:48
But it's I think it's important to not go in with such a closed mindset that we aren't open to all kinds of possibilities, because to do that I think is is not necessarily sharing the the full picture, the the the complete picture.
22:06
Absolutely.
And I think I'm currently writing a book.
I'm working on a book on Sleepy Hollow, which is sort of similar to Salem, but it's in New York and Sleepy Hollow.
The Ghost Floor associated with Sleepy Hollow, NY really is related to Washington Irvings, the legend of Sleepy Hollow and sort of the Headless Horseman creation.
22:26
And a lot of those spirits have been kind of created by Washington Irving, if you, if you will.
So it's important.
Like you I I'll see.
I see that a lot in Salem as well.
A lot of the, the alleged spirits that we're interacting with, you know, present themselves as Bridget Bishop, the first woman to be executed for witchcraft.
22:44
But is it really Bridget Bishop?
Or is it something else that we've somehow collectively created, almost like an egregore by telling her story over and over again?
And I have multiple examples in Salem and Sleepy Hollow of, you know, spirits that didn't actually exist.
23:03
Like they were like there.
There's no like, there's no history of, like, for example, the Lady in the Blue, which is a story that we tell on our ghost tours in Salem out of at a location called Rockefellers.
And I actually filmed a show called Most Terrifying Places talking about the lady in the in blue, and she's been spotted by multiple people.
23:21
And the whole story is that she was pregnant.
And this is in the 18 early 1800s waiting outside of what what is now monitoring Rockefellers.
She told her her BLOB, the the sailor who got her pregnant that she was, that she was expecting and he, according to legend, killed her and buried her in the bowels of the building.
23:42
Well, The thing is that story never happened.
We don't have any proof of a lady in blue, but we we we do have photos and we do have paranormal evidence that would suggest that she, in fact it, you know, is actually a spirit haunting that location.
But do we create her by telling her story over and over again?
24:00
Absolutely.
And it's certainly something that I think is a really interesting talking point and discussion point because I think it's one that is kind of overlooked in the sense that it's it's an easy thing to to kind of not understand the the the law and how it changes and how a story has evolved over time.
24:22
It can be very difficult to actually get to the heart of a story and to do that due due diligence if you like to do that research.
But I think it's part of why it's so important to have the historical understanding and how the story itself, that ghost law story, has evolved to really start to piece together that evolutionary journey, if you like.
24:45
Because it's fascinating to me when you see those accounts and how they can shift and morph depending on the time period, the time frame and when they pop up and when they disappear and whether they endure or not.
Because like you said it, that retelling of it constantly retelling in various different forms and how it gets shaped.
25:09
It's fascinating to then to match that with the history or the the non history if there isn't anything there, but to understand why certain aspects of it stay, why some parts of it might disappear And then to also track that against the phenomena experience and whether that is something that you can then match to a real person or not.
25:34
I think it's like I said, I think it's something that people don't necessarily spend the time really trying to connect all of that together.
And I think it is really important because we have to be really mindful as to whether we're creating that history as well as that story and perpetuating something and really understanding what could or couldn't be happening.
25:55
And getting to the the heart of the question, which I think most people have, which is what actually is a ghost.
Is it all the time something that is coming back as a spirit from the other side or is it something that we are also involved in?
Is there some connection?
And it's such a simple question, but it's a really profound question that again, I just think often times we we overstep and we overlook.
26:19
Yeah, I my, I always say when someone asks me what what a ghost is.
I would say a ghost is history demanding to be remembered and that's been my approach from the beginning and I I feel like that you know if if the ghost story actually helps me tell the correct history, then I feel like it's definitely it's definitely worth it.
26:40
I I tend to want to focus on those who are overlooked by history, whether they're Native Americans or women that were accused falsely accused of witchcraft or or men that were accused of witchcraft.
I I tend to go for the ones that either were marginalized or overlooked by history.
26:57
And so I so I you know, I I stick by the the definition of ghostless history, demanding to be remembered.
And I think that's a really good way of actually putting it across.
And I think that's why sometimes those stories endure, which is what I was trying to hint at and get at earlier in a very rambly way.
27:13
But it it it's interesting those stories that do endure over others and and how those are the ones that are perpetuated in local legends, in local storytelling and local folklore, that those are the ones that still exist hundreds of years later and why they're still relevant and how we still take things from them.
27:34
And I think it is often because it's those stories, like you rightly just pointed out, are demanding to be told.
And for me as a history enthusiast as well as someone interested in the paranormal, I think you're absolutely right.
That's when they can become very powerful ways of connecting with the past, with moments of history that maybe we know, but not always, but certainly we don't necessarily know some of the personal stories of some of those involved because they aren't the essential characters.
28:07
But often times these these stories help us to see this history on very local level that we can relate to, because it could be so easily us in that tale.
And I think that's what's powerful.
28:22
It's a way of connecting the past and the present.
Absolutely.
And you know, like like the Salem Witch Trials, just sort of the one that I focus on a lot.
I feel like that that before I started, I learned about the Salem Witch Trials.
It was pretty much, you know, it was like The Crucible.
28:40
So the Crucible was something that I knew growing up.
However, I always thought the Crucible was actual, like a factual retelling of the Salem Witch Trials.
And it actually is not.
The names are correct, but the people and the players and what actually happened were different than than, you know, than actual history.
29:00
So that's been kind of fun like sort of looking at The Crucible, using that as a template and kind of looking at what's true in The Crucible and what's not true and kind of like piercing together the truth and creating a narrative that is is similar to the to the Crucible.
29:17
But it's not, it's not The Crucible.
I mean, it's just so it's so rich, isn't it?
And I think this is what's for me is personally fascinating about exploring the history and the paranormal that there is so much so many different areas and ways that you can look at it and explore it.
29:35
And it is.
So I mean it's the it's something that just keeps giving in terms of questions and just making you want to keep going back for more and trying to understand more to piece things together and to you always come up with something else.
And I.
And I imagine this is precisely why you've you've managed to create so many bodies of work and to write so kind of widely because it is such a a rich and varied subject to explore.
30:05
And I.
And I think that's what's really enjoying about it there.
There's something always that's going to capture your imagination about this because we have a real fascination with trying to understand the history or what is a ghost, whether that's something that is there, you know, what happens to us after death.
30:23
It's a real kind of acknowledgement, I think, that this is something that fascinates us as human beings.
Absolutely.
And and you know, I, you know, I do think that there's more to it because I I identify as a as a clairvoyant.
30:39
So I I, I I so in addition to being a historian I also have, I'm sensitive to the spirit realm.
So what I have, I have to kind of balance the two.
And it's really difficult to be honest with you because as a historian, I want to look up the history before I go to a location.
30:54
But as a medium, I'm expected to go to a location and not like not know any of the facts and letting letting the ghost kind of guide me when it comes to uncovering the paranormal.
But I I do find that, you know, as a historian, I love, like I do love when I'm validated, when I'm able to validate what I pick up and to.
31:15
And having the spirits kind of, like, lead me in a direction that will ultimately, you know, kind of turn into a new book or turn into a new project based on something that I didn't even know about.
And that's happened multiple times for me.
Like I I walk into a location kind of knowing the basics, but not not just just the the first, the top layer, and digging deeper until I get to the heart of the story.
31:38
You know you mentioned that have that clairvoyant sense.
You know you can you can connect.
There is something there that allows you to connect with spirits and it's it's a topic that I've talked about with other guests, which is I think actually a lot of people have that sense.
31:55
You know we we we can pick up things we can we as an investigator as just as powerful as whatever we take in as a gadget I think and in some cases more so to be honest because our senses are so important they're so I think it's important to recognise our emotions and what it is that we're experiencing.
32:15
Yes.
Be able to have a a logical kind of thought behind what is it that that that I'm hearing what is it that I'm experiencing what is it that I'm seeing and try and and make sure that you're approaching it rationally.
Absolutely.
But I think it's so important to really listen to ourselves almost like a like an instrument in its own, in its own right because this is a story that we and a location and a person that we're trying to connect with.
32:44
And I think trying to completely distance yourself from that is I think in some ways it's it's not allowing you to have that immersive experience.
You know you have to be invested.
You have to want to communicate.
You have to want to be open to what potentially may happen.
33:03
And I think that's about being in that moment, being present and being really open to whatever is coming through, whether you might call that sensitive or not.
I think it's important to recognize that as someone in that in that moment that you know you have to be have a certain mindset to really get the the most out of that investigation.
33:28
Absolutely.
Like it's I I'd say like you work the muscle So what Like the more you investigate the more sensitive you become and you'll see this over and over again.
People that have been in the field for so long and they've investigated you know for years that they that they are sensitive as well.
33:44
It's just something that kind of kind of happens and and a lot of times, you know, especially when you're dealing with the skeptics and and people that that are that necessarily don't believe in ghosts.
You know, I have to kind of balance that because you know, I definitely believe that there's a spirit realm.
34:02
But I also, I know a lot of my readers are somewhat skeptical.
So it's, I guess it's important for some people not to be, I guess come out of the crystal closet, if you will like like not to be open about their, about their abilities.
But I also think you'll see it over and over again.
People that you know that are more in the sceptical side also develop their sensitivity as well by investigating.
34:25
It just kind of happens organically.
I think someone described it to be once as imagining it as a triangle and you kind of go down the middle of it.
It's I think for me it's being open to different approaches, that different kind of mindsets.
34:43
If you like, you can be very sceptical.
I think that's a a good thing to have to to not be so completely the other way where everything is, is something paranormal, phenomenal, you know out of this world to be to have that logic, to apply that rational kind of mindset to something, but at the same time not be so close minded that you're dismissing and not even listening, not even kind of taking the heartbeat of the the building if you like.
35:14
So I think walking that middle line, that kind of sense of being right down the centre of a triangle is is I think kind of where most people should ideally be as an investigator to to kind of have both feet in both camps if you like.
35:31
Yeah.
I tend to be like I kind of go on the on the more the at the edge of this triangle sometimes.
But I think you're right.
I try my best and I think that I I surround myself with people that that kind of bring me to the middle if you will.
You know, I work a lot with Richard.
35:48
Estep is someone that I enjoy, where he's a fellow author and he and I investigated to me some of the most haunted locations like the Hensdale house in New York and the Sally house in in Kansas.
And I I was terrified of both locations.
36:04
But he was there.
It's kind of ground me And also to point out if I'm picking up on something, he's like Sam, that's just, you know, like that's just something, you know, like for example, I saw a light in the in Hinsdale house and the horizon, it was actually just the the street lamp and I thought it was a UFO.
36:22
So he was like, and I'm like Richard, it's moving.
It's moving and he's like Sam that's that's a street lamp.
And I'm like, oh, so it's good to kind of like have someone with you that can kind of keep you grounded.
Oh, I so wish it was a UFO.
Such a good story.
36:44
I know, right?
And he he was like, Sam, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm like, I'm like Richard and I'm like and he's like he's like that that's a.
And The thing is, the trees were in front of it, so the trees were clogged to get to look like it was moving.
But I did.
37:00
But I think you are so right.
You know, it's about having a team around you, which is sometimes really helpful in the sense that that blended style and approach to something can be really useful.
And I think people go in and get different things.
37:15
I think people experience them and have different approaches, and I think sometimes combining that could be really powerful and fascinating to see how someone else is saying something and interpreting something again, just to get that very broad response to what's happening, if that makes sense.
37:34
Absolutely.
And I I tend to also like to work with, I don't usually work with the same group.
And that's what I like about that is I'm able to kind of go from group to group and kind of you know a lot of times the groups that I'll go with they have an invested interest in the location that I'm going going to visit.
37:56
So like I I find that certain groups like that's the energy of the group together can really make an invest, make or break an investigation.
And for the most part I'm I'm pretty good at, at choosing people that to collaborate with where we're all on the same page where we want to tell the history correctly and to communicate with spirit and to do a solid investigation.
38:18
But you have sometimes where you're I just did The Conjuring House, which is, you know, supposedly one of the most haunted locations and the country.
And it was the inspiration for the movie The Conjuring and I.
It was a quiet night like nothing happened.
So you'll have nights where nothing happens.
38:35
And that's the reality of what we do as investigators.
Yeah, it's not the TV, it's not the the jump scare.
It's it can be very different.
You can have one experience one time and go back the next 20 times and nothing happened whatsoever.
I mean it's it's to do with the the luck of the draw in the sense that it could be time related or it could be something to do with the group and the energy that you're bringing in.
38:59
I mean who knows really.
And again, I think that's part of the the intrigue about investigating it, getting to understand why some activity is there and then it's not why some apparitions seem more prevalent and then dissipate.
39:15
I mean, again, there's just so many questions that keep coming out of doing this type of research.
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41:51
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42:10
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Like I I read a book and I it was called The Fuel by Fear and what I this past year and the you're kind of alluded to haunted magazine.
42:37
I I wrote AI wrote a piece called my year of year like the year of year.
And in that year of year I really took an approach with these haunted locations like The Conjuring house like the Sally house or like the Hinsdale house that I was terrified to go into and trying to realize that the darker energies feed off of our my fear.
42:58
So I went in with like without the Fear if you will and and I found like I had a really different experience going in without that like that terrified you know fear like fear based motivation that I I had at other locations and the investigation was a lot calmer which was good.
43:18
We gonna we, by not not having that fear, was able to get kind of to the heart of the story in the heart of the ghost, the ghost lore at the location without using like, without amping up the whatever what I think are the darker energies at a location that were just beating off of it.
Well, I think it comes back to what we've been saying.
43:35
You know, we ourselves are just as powerful and we're part of the experience we're going in.
You know, we have our own energy and we bring that to that space and that can energize something, make something more exaggerated, ramp it up if you like, or it can help calm and and settle something.
44:00
And I think I think it's about being in tune with your own emotions and being aware of what it is that you're bringing and what you're expecting.
Because if you're expecting something really fearful, you're anticipating that and you're kind of finding that in all kinds of spaces and shadows and things that are happening, which again I just think keeps ramping that dark energy up, which I think like you said can then manifest in some of the some of the spirit energy that's there.
44:30
Yeah absolutely.
And I, you know I for the, so I managed to go a whole year with using that approach and then I found it really worked for me.
However I had a situation a few weeks ago I was at a church in Winchiton and we were doing an investigation like it was like early December and I had like I what I can only describe we were doing a seance and I you know I'm I'm I tend to do seances a lot since we're doing the curse Lizzy board And because I feel like especially if it's if it's if it's you know get spirit that from like the 1800s.
45:06
And I I I felt like that that approach was very effective but it kind of backfired when I did the investigation at this church and winter then in the sense that I was pretty much like lifted up and and I felt like dragged on the ground by an unseen force which I know it sounds super dramatic but I was going in I I kind of maybe may have like had a such a a calm year that I was not expecting anything like that to happen but it totally did.
45:36
So even when you're like even when you go in with that approach it doesn't always work.
I guess that's my whole point So it so even like something that you I was not expecting it to be dramatic ended up being dramatic.
Don't you think that then helps to separate experiences from other types of experiences in the sense that is that something very much to do with the location and what's there or is it something that we're bringing in and helping to manifest?
46:03
I mean I I I don't know.
Again it's that thing of trying to really understand what's happening.
I think what is the ghost, what is happening here?
What is being manifested here?
And I I think This is why investigating is so important because it's trying to really grapple with these very big questions that we've had for so long that I think we're probably still going to be talking about in 100 years time.
46:29
Well, not you and I you.
Never know you.
Never know.
It's just that you never know.
Maybe we'll be connecting with something, someone and having this conversation still.
But it is that thing of these are really big profound questions that are the motivating reason why we're so drawn to wanting to keep coming back and explore because we don't know.
46:52
We are assuming there are a lot of assumptions when it comes to paranormal investigating and the understanding of of this field, but it's because of these types of questions, the fact that you don't necessarily have something concrete and set in stone.
47:10
We're still really trying to understand the science, the the human aspect, the emotional aspect of it.
You know, it's a very complicated thing waving together that we're, you know, people are trying to unpick.
47:26
And that takes time.
It takes repeated investigation.
It takes repeated conversations and study and research and so much more.
And I think that will always endure.
I think there will be more and more to uncover, to be honest.
Yeah and and getting back to the where I had a sort of a a kind of a terrifying experience at this church in Wichita.
47:48
And I I feel strongly that I was tapping into the experience at this location and not really knowing the history going in having you know during the investigation several people on it was rotating investigations.
48:04
We had groups coming in and I was the lead investigator and the there was a whole back story of like the Mick Mack Indians from Canada from that area and also there's King Philip's War as well.
And so I felt like the what I was connecting with was something related to the Native American whether it was, you know, like like a like a elemental energy.
48:27
But I, I or maybe maybe replaying what happened to the the Native Americans that were massacred during King Philip's War, something was going on that was related to the Native Americans.
So I do whether or not, you know, you know, it felt terrifying at the time.
48:42
I have to also like these things that happen whether you get scratched or, you know, like things happen to you in an investigation that maybe seem kind of like they're being attacking you.
They're maybe trying to get your attention as opposed to trying to hurt you.
Yeah.
49:01
And I think that's a really important aspect to actually convey and to say, because I think for so many people this is something just terrifying anyway.
It's something that is frightening.
And if it's an experience that they're having for the first time, that's frightening in itself.
49:19
So it's trying to understand that actually a lot of what people experience is precisely that.
It's something just trying to to get your attention to be heard and how that manifests can can feel very frightening, appear very frightening.
49:37
But actually it comes back to what the whole premise of what I think a lot of people are doing in the in the investigation, which is just simply trying to communicate.
And it's trying to find a means and a way to do that to get to the story that needs telling the the the aspect of what it is that they're trying to say that they're demanding to be heard, the history to be heard their history to be heard.
50:02
And again that doesn't always happen via one visit.
It can take real repeated attempts.
You know it's it's not something always so straightforward and and and easy to do.
It can take multiple types of different approaches and questions and yeah, trying to get to the heart of what it is that's that coming through, to be honest.
50:28
And that's why I love doing this because I I really I love that challenge to kind of figure out what I'm what I'm supposed to to figure out and the concords colonial in book what's interesting about that book is I you know I did immerse myself working there the during the overnight shift but a lot of what is told on whether it's when we we had a sheet of like the like the ghost floor associated with with that hotel and it's it's close to the the northbridge which is where the battle of Lexington and Concord took place.
51:01
It also it's supposedly had like during the battle of Lexington Concord in the American Revolution.
It also supposedly served as a as a makeshift hospital.
And what's interesting is when I did my research the the the rooms 24 which is where supposedly where the the surgeries took place and room 27, which is where the morgue supposedly took place, wasn't built until the until 1820.
51:24
So that that that portion of the end didn't exist in the 1800s, which I found so fascinating that we've told these stories that people have reported over and over again of like seeing soldiers that you know like like with missing legs and that sort of thing at these locations.
51:40
But it did, you know it it did was a was a player in the American Revolution.
So it did that location.
The land did have native, not Native Americans had have soldiers there.
But what's interesting about Congress Colonial in what I felt like was more prevalent was not necessarily the American soldiers or the ones that were the colonists that were fighting against the British, but the British soldiers who lost their lives at the at the Battle of Lexington, the Concord.
52:06
So that that was interesting getting sort of the other side to it.
And you know Richard, who is, who's my my British, my British friend was he were able to investigate that location together and get a completely different perspective on Concord's colonial end.
I just think it's lovely being able to read your books, to step in to shared history, new history, new places.
52:31
I mean it's I mean it's just such a an A wonderful experience to be able to dive into these locations that you really do bring them to life and you're able to convey that to someone on the other side of the world and to bring their story to the attention of people in the way that you do is is just wonderful.
52:54
And you know you've been to such a variety of different places some that you know have that reputation for being haunted.
You know fits the typical typical kind of notion of what makes a good haunting if you like.
53:10
But also out of the way, places, places a bit more subdued.
And yeah, I just think it's wonderful that you're sharing that history, these of these locations and the people, and bring that to life, to people wherever they are in the world, so that we can connect with them, even if it's our history or not.
53:32
I just think, I think it's wonderful, really, really magical.
Thank you.
Yeah.
But I that's that that that's my depth really.
I mean I I I I've had people who have never been to Salem.
Like they're really fascinated with Salem.
But they'll read my Ghost of Salem book and it actually will inspire them to visit Salem which which I love.
53:50
And I and I, I also get people who, you know, they find my book in Salem and they, and they didn't necessarily have a good experience, but when they get the book, they actually have their it changes their experience in Salem after reading the book.
And I mean that that excites me.
54:05
Like I like I love.
I love that.
I love bringing people to a location that they may or may not know, know about, and kind of like giving them sort of an insider's take on it and not letting the ghosts kind of tell their story.
So what are your future projects?
Have you got things planned that you're intending to write about?
54:23
Places to visit and explore?
What's next to you for 2024?
Well, so I'm currently working on a book on Sleepy Hollow.
So I Sleepy Hollow is it was formerly known as North Tarrytown, so it's it's the Hudson Valley region above New York City.
54:47
I used to visit Sleepy Hollow because I lived in New York City for about about 10 years and I would visit every Halloween.
So this is sort of like a return to a location that I that I love very much.
I've I've been going on the weekends to do research and try my best to immerse myself as much as possible at the legend and lore I'm actually going to.
55:07
So my my new job is Auk based hotel group and I'm actually going to the UK to do some research on a future project and the idea is to trace my lineage back to England and so we so as we know I'm related to Lizzie Bourne and the Putnam family but what where did that the curse if you will where did it start and it I believe it started in in England so so I'm going to England in 2024 still kind of working out the dates for that but it's looking like September to work on a follow up to my book related to evil.
55:44
That sounds so exciting.
Oh, that sounds incredible.
But I.
Can't wait.
It's not about it.
I'm.
Really jealous.
I wasn't really jealous, but I think it's.
I think it's interesting that that, you know you've got that passion to want to almost continue that story, that kind of diving deep into that part of your own personal history and that connection and at the same time get to visit some pretty cool places across the UKI.
56:11
Imagine, I love it.
Yeah, you'll get, you'll get to visit some very different locations and places, I imagine, and and step into some of that.
Oh, you'll have to have to let me know when you get here and where you go.
And yeah, with Richard Esther, I'm sure he'll give you some pointers as well.
56:28
Places to be Are there any places in the UK that you would love to investigate?
Yeah, you know so I I'm fairly green when it comes to the UK, but I, I so I I keep dreaming about a castle and I'm not sure what castle it is but there is a castle in my future that I'm going to be visiting.
56:48
So I and I know, so I'm very open to where I'm going.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm excited.
I I would love to do the Festival of the Unexplained at the Bosworth Hall events coming up in September.
And I, you know, I actually reached out to the organizers to maybe get a stall for that event, 'cause I 'cause I I I would love to go to that location specifically, 'cause it looks lovely and so so yeah I'm looking it's kind of I'm really interested in.
57:16
There was a article in Haunted Magazine on the Headless Horseman of I forget what where the located.
It was the the Moorlands up in the north part of England that I would love to visit to you.
Yeah, Shropshire that way.
57:32
There's there's quite a few stories that come out of that part of the the kind of the country, yeah.
So there are some great places and I'm sure, I'm sure castles will definitely be in your in your future in the UK.
We've got quite a few, especially people in Wales.
You can't go more than a few feet in Wales and there's another castle.
57:52
It's fascinating.
You're in for a treat.
Honestly it's been such a pleasure to chat with you and you know as I, as I've said throughout the the chat that we've had, you are such an incredible writer and there are so many different books that you have written and I very much encourage people to to find you to take your read if they haven't.
58:15
As you know one of those books, I'm sure once they start reading one they will want to consume another one and then another one because they're just such wonderful stories to step into.
But also the history, the, the, I mean it's got everything literally.
58:32
If you had a a list of things that you want to tip that you enjoy about this type of of of research and writing and material and stories and history, I mean, it's all there, isn't it?
So yeah, anyone who is listening, if you haven't read any of Sam's book, I highly recommend, I highly encourage you to take a look.
58:52
I'm sure you will find something, whether it is Salem or Concorde, which you mentioned.
I mean, there are literally so many different places that you've explored and written about that something's going to capture someone's imagination, I'm sure.
Absolutely.
If you go to my website sambaltrusis.com give a rundown also the the different television shows that that have appeared on as well.
59:15
I have a list of those and where they appear.
Yeah, which is always handy because you know some things aren't available in some locations and you've got to find it in a different way.
So knowing titles and things and I will make sure to put all of that on the podcast description, notes and things as well so that they can easily find you.
59:32
Find some of the the documentaries and and programs and things that you've been involved in as well as obviously where to find your website and so on so that they can easily be signposted to you your work and take a dive in.
59:47
Whether it's through the medium of the screen or through the medium of a book, I don't think they'll be disappointed.
Thank you so much.
And I would say if I would make a recommendation, the first book that I always recommend for to read it of mine is Ghost to Salem, because I think that that's sort of like that that will that will lure you in and you'll kind of go in the rabbit hole of my books.
1:00:09
That is the perfect way of describing it, the rabbit hole of books.
And I think that's.
But I do think that's the hallmark of a really good writer, someone who once you've read one, you want to read more and more and more.
And you know, there are certain writers within the paranormal field that have have written such a variety of really good quality material.
1:00:31
You know, you're one of them.
Richard Estepp is another one.
There are some really good writers for whom their work really deserves to to be shared and to be talked about because they are so well researched.
They're so well put together.
So you know, thank you for for doing what you're doing and continuing to do.
1:00:48
Thank You so much, Michelle.
It's honestly, it's been such a pleasure to to chat with you and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening.
Bye everyone.
Have a good night.
