0:30
Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.
I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history.
0:46
Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.
That's the realm we invite you to explore with us.
Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas.
1:16
We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way.
But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you.
Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities.
1:40
Feel free to share with friends and family.
The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access.
So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, Haunted History Chronicles is your passport to the other side.
2:01
Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.
And now, let's introduce today's podcast.
Or guessed.
2:16
A belief in the possibility of communication with spirits from the afterlife can be traced to ancient civilizations the world over.
Our fate after death is the central mystery of humanity.
2:34
If we exist in some form, spirit, soul, or ghost, after our last breath, then contact with those who have already made this transition could provide a first hand answer to this question.
Throughout history, Mystics, mediums, scientists, and those just seeking comfort and answers have claimed to have accomplished such contact.
2:59
Without evidence of such experience, most claims are dismissed.
In the 19th and 20th centuries, advancements in technologies of documentation provided the hope of scientific proof of these experiences and evidence of life after death.
3:15
Spirit photography provided the first hope for such proof in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with the possibility that the camera could see into dimensions invisible to the naked eye.
With the invention of the phonograph and 20th century advancements in recording technologies, the possibility for auditory proof of the spirit world was awakened.
3:38
Rumours of electronic voice phenomena experimentation dates to the 1920s, but it was not until the 1950s and 1960s that the first EVP was recorded.
Joining me today is Tony Hayes.
Tony grew up in Cheshire in England.
3:56
After graduating in Science and Physics with chemical giants ICI, Tony left the security of a large company and formed his own training business before changing careers again.
Moving into government service, Tony has investigated spontaneous activity since his first case in 1989.
4:16
He is the case manager and lead investigator at Paranormal Investigations UK, as well as a member of the SBR and ASAP.
You're in for a master class as Tony joins me to take a closer look at Audio and Electronic Voice phenomena with me in the podcast, drawing on his years of experience, research and investigations.
4:41
So get comfortable and let's say hello to today's guest.
Hi, Tony.
Thank you so much for joining me this evening.
Thank you for inviting me, Michelle.
Do you want to start by just giving the people listening a little bit about yourself and your background?
5:02
Yes, I am a case management panel investigator from Panel Paranormal Investigation UK with a small team of three people.
I my background is chemical, chemicals and physics, which is where I took the degree with ICI and Imperial Chemical Industries and then I left that to go into government service with the MOD and later the police service.
5:30
And I retired in around 2005 and dedicated myself for full time into the paranormal.
And that's, that's the position I'm I'm here now.
So that's as far as my, my, my career goes, you know, nothing too enlightening.
5:50
Well, I think it's varied and I think sometimes having having had various different hats if you like, does mean that if you are someone who investigates the paranormal, it does mean that you can, you can approach it from those different skill sets, which I think is really useful.
6:08
I mean you mentioned a couple there, police and Modi mean that's some pretty unique skills that you can bring to your role as a case manager and a lead investigator and obviously then also being associated and involved with you know the SBR, ASAP, etcetera.
6:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You're absolutely right with do the MOD work.
That's what really got me interested in the phenomena we now call EVP, Electronic Voice Phenomena.
That was in around about 19841985 and I could that.
6:47
I've continued with that interest because I come from a size background anyway.
And then my Lagnier queer in the police service, I know how to report and record cases, which I think is quite power now for anyone that's new into investigation, comes into it the first time very often it can be somewhat a bit Lapsidisy when it comes to actually recording down what it is, your experience.
7:16
And then you can take that on then to other investigators organisations.
I am a member of the SPR.
I've been a member for many years, the SPR as well as the Asasa as well, which another affected group.
So there's quite a strong bond between all the organisations.
7:34
Everyone seems to know each other and you're able to seek assistance, pass advice back in two because we still, even after all the hundreds of years of investigation, we don't quite understand what is happening here with this.
So no one really got any answers yet.
7:53
Michelle Abbey.
No, I think we like to think we do, but actually it's I think it's an ever, ever evolving field to be honest in terms of theories.
But also it's it's one that's very difficult to prove anything for certain.
8:08
You know, we can, we can keep adding to the picture, but I think it really does take a lot more very, very careful, methodical investigation for for us to get anywhere I think meaningful.
8:24
Yeah, because you you pick life's, you know, I've been fortunate with the careers I've had before.
You pick life skills which are useful to you in your later life, particularly with panel of mitigation.
I also took two courses with the Parapsychological Association in the United States, really.
8:44
So there's always a bit of ghost hunter in everybody.
That's generally where people start ghost hunting, see, then move into paranormal investigation, which is more into looking at the phenomena, the experience, and but more and more into the area of parapsychology.
9:01
Now trying to understand and find answers to this strange stuff that we call the paranormal.
And it's one.
This is probably the most interesting period of my life.
This since I retired and came into it full time and I've enjoyed every day ever and continue to do so, which hasn't always been.
9:23
And I think, you know you touched on some some topic points already that I'm really hoping that we can get into.
And one of them is audio and EVP phenomena.
Because I think for anybody who who comes at the paranormal and starts maybe by watching televisions, television shows for example, they'll see people using particular devices.
9:46
They'll they'll have a very kind of low level understanding maybe of what they're doing and what it's showing and how they're being used.
And likewise, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding in terms of paranormal investigators, in terms of what it is they're actually capturing.
How they can really interrogate that, that kind of data and what it is that they need to be looking for.
10:07
The kind of the pitfalls as well as the the kind of like the real gems in terms of what it could be highlighting and show and showcasing for them.
And so, given your background, I'm really interested to kind of pick your brains about this topic in general.
Yeah, the the electronic voice phenomena, it's prevalent in our investigation.
10:26
I would say of all these various numbers of how many investigators are out there, anything from 15 to 30,000, no one really knows.
But all of them, I would say I've gone into investigation and captured EVP Electronic Voice phenomena as long as they're able to actually distinguish the two between outside the environment to a genuine EVP.
10:53
Because one thing that the the recorder whatever device they have and one of my first advice is to investigators is if you're going to go down the road of Electronic Voice Phenomena recording is get a device that you're able to use.
11:09
A lot of the zoom and task and recorders around now are generally made for recording live bands.
Michelle and there are multiple different adjustments.
They have certain apps built in such as noise reduction, high risk filters and so on.
11:27
And what you're after really is a basic recorder something like an 11 person.
And the key, the second great tip is the actual format that you say that audio in.
We're all familiar with MP3, aren't we?
With everyone knows what an MP3 is.
11:43
It was only really designed to be useful to send a recording via e-mail, because they're quite small file sizes.
But an MP3 is a compressed audio farmer format where if you recorder, such as if you get a musical CD you purchase from a shop, that's called Wava Wave and that's an uncompressed format.
12:06
MP3 is compressed.
So generally if you've got a capture and you need someone like myself to analyse it, the better quality of it is, the more likely it.
With enhancement I can get the best side of it, the different categories, people you're probably familiar with Type A, Type B, Type C and so on of EVP quality.
12:30
I've never ever recorded such a thing as a Taipei crystal clear recording multiple syllable where I can clearly define what is being said.
So the Germany needs some form of enhancement.
As long as you can prove that it is a voice that you've recorded to predominately be the EVP, the most common one is 1 syllable.
12:54
Hello.
Goodbye.
Some some sort of word, generally 1 syllable.
Are you familiar with the term paradolia?
Yeah.
And I think it was one of the things that I wanted to talk about because I think most people are very familiar with how, you know, you can have that visual kind of your brain picking up and making something an image.
13:18
I mean, if we think about clouds, for example, seeing something in a cloud, something like that is very familiar to people.
But the fact is, we have the same thing when it comes to our hearing.
Brain does exactly the same thing.
And it's so easily influenced.
If someone else says, oh, I hear this, Or if you see something come up on your screen where someone has what they think is a really good EVP capture and they put subtitles on it, where you're reading it as well as hearing it.
13:44
Because the minute you start reading it, your brain is going to tell you it's exactly what you're reading.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because with for photograph for example, the giveaway where you know that it's maybe not as quite as good as the Ledger to believe is when they put a red circle around there straight away saying this is what I'm looking at and that's often associated with EBP, they'll send one over and they'll put it saying how are you.
14:13
I don't need to be told that and much prefer to find that from from myself.
And when it is that we've analysed audio particularly for something that if the words are going to be such as, so will we.
14:30
If that's what I hear when I pass it over to my new colleagues and say what can you hear?
We've never, all three of us have never agreed, Michelle, on what's being said.
So paradolia will play a part in there with it.
And the other one that I've come across, which is people forget you don't just hear audio, you can actually see it, you can actually visual see it if you're using software to analyse the audio, which is a key part of what I do.
15:02
So a perfect example of where things go wrong, where we have paradolia we're working with.
It's a Friday night about 9:30 and this guy got in contact with me to say, look, I've had a message from me wife and what had happened is the guy's wife for the first time since the the value of the first newborn child.
15:27
Six months later mother's gone away with her friends for the first night.
Obviously she's a bit concerned that she's leaving her husband with this six month old baby for the first time.
So what he does, he sends her a video of the daughter.
She then shows her friends at the pub and they bring.
15:46
She rings him up.
What on earth?
If you recorded?
There's a woman screaming so he come to me so well, what?
What's this?
I didn't hear it at the time.
The problem is with the two issues.
One is if we've all been to weddings and listened to the the bridegroom during his speech.
16:07
Now if you were to record that on your mobile phone at the time, all you're going to hear is the bridegroom talking.
Yet when you play about the following day, you're going to hear chairs moving.
What people walking, glasses tinkering, and oh, where's a lot of sound come from?
16:24
It's because your brain has been focused on the matter at hand, which is recording the the bright green speech.
So I wasn't over convinced that he might not have heard this.
Now when I actually put that into the software, sure enough it did sound like a woman screaming.
16:40
So obviously there's a safeguarding concern here.
Who is there?
But when I saw the frequency of real life straight to like this, it wasn't human.
It was around 3 1/2 thousand Hertz.
It was sounded like a woman screaming and a little bit of research and I found out what the culprit was.
16:57
It was an urban fox.
That's what the sound was.
He's quite happy now and I'm delighted because there isn't a woman in distress.
So sometimes looking at the audio as well as listening to it is it's just equally important if not more important to be honest.
17:19
Another aspect with EVP, which is I would say as high as 60 to 70% will be at a tempo much faster than normal speech tempo.
So if I was to say the word Hello are you?
17:36
That's normal tempo.
On an EVP more syllable it'd be Hello are you.
Very quick and on my default is generally around 50% and it then brings back into what I consider to be normal speech tempo.
17:53
I've recorded vocals for over 30 years and I know when some something is speaking much faster.
I haven't got an explanation for that, but what I just do, it ticks the box that maybe I am dealing with an electronic voice phenomenon because we don't know how on earth it gets there because we don't hear it.
18:12
We do hear it after we do the recording.
So it's one of those compelling ones and most investigators get it and you see them on Facebook.
I recorded this one in a churchyard and I can hear someone saying, who are you?
18:28
Well, have they taken steps to ensure that it's not a noise within the environment?
If you're concentrating on walking around in the dark, for example the recorder in your hand, you may not necessarily hear that with your ears.
But the recorder isn't selective, it will pick up everything, so I don't know if that's any use.
18:50
No, I think it's really valuable and I think it highlights what I was trying to suggest before, which is I think people see them being, see them being used, they utilise the the kind of the tool itself, but then it's what you do with it.
It's how you analyse that and how you can interrogate what you've got that little bit further.
19:09
And in some cases it's just being made aware that you can look at some of these things like tempo and start to really just tease apart what you've got.
And that's the that's the important thing, I think just to have that greater awareness of it, to use it better.
19:27
Yeah, you what you the more you analyse physically analyse with you get free regarding software such as Audacity these days and cost anything.
So it's not just about downloading the recorded to your laptop, having a listen, put it onto YouTube, whatever.
19:44
Because people need to remember as well.
Spotify, YouTube, all these online.
I'll compress the file formats so if you've already got a degraded audio and start to put it onto YouTube, it's going to degrade a second time.
20:03
A perfect example of this is.
We're running a Poltergeist case at the moment.
It's in Essex and we've got multiple cameras in this building to do remote monitoring.
Now what we realised is that these video footage goes directly into the cloud.
20:21
Amanda Griffiths my colleague, she then downloads it and he and sends it through to us on the Facebook message.
I realised that the quality of it wasn't very good, but if she puts it directly into her own cloud account, the quality is far superior.
20:39
So again, the platforms that people use, YouTube, e-mail, Facebook message, Whatsapp's even worse.
To be honest, Try to avoid that and generally use if you're going to send audio back into.
20:55
Use cloud accounts and links to physically downloaded direct and you'll get a far better quality audio at the end of it.
Yeah.
And again, I think there's just that kind of misunderstanding around that because I think we assume, don't we, that with these different platforms are going to be able to allow us to do what we're doing and not realising that it's actually impacting on the quality of what it is that we're then listening to at the end of it.
21:22
And yeah, it's just knowing all of that, I think being aware of it and I don't think people are.
I think it's that simple.
This information isn't necessarily readily available for people to understand some of the pitfalls around what what it is they they're using and they're doing.
21:37
Yeah, because it's only over.
The last puppy, the last 2025 years, since we've used computers, really, that sort of device to analyse as well as move files back into.
At one point we used to take photographs and you get the same problems.
21:56
Michelle with video and a perfect example of this was a case of what was suggested was an applauded coin.
So if you can imagine looking at the top of a staircase of a landing area and what you just hear is a bank and suddenly this 10 pence coin just puts an appearance in the make of the carpet.
22:22
The carpet, it seems to just come from nowhere.
The original idea behind this when this was first presented is have we for the first time seen a genuine apport?
I'm going to presume that you know what an apport is, Michelle.
22:37
I do.
But for people listening, they may not.
I mean it's, I mean it's something that's very common in reported poltergeist cases.
But like I said, I'm not sure it's a term that everybody would be familiar with.
So yeah, feel free to elaborate.
Yeah, and a port would be an item possibly not associated with the property you're living in, or may have moved from one clay location to another.
23:02
For example, a depot would be.
You put your remote control, which is the most prominent one that disappears.
It's a remote control.
You place it on the copper table, you turn your head away for 10 seconds, you look back and the remote control is vanished.
Then half an hour later it's back again.
23:20
That's the A port and the we generally felt that we may have got in front of the very first recorded A port where we can actually authenticate.
Definitely this is the case now.
The issue with this was that it was it was CCTV that captured this, had gone to the person, they'd download it onto the mobile phone.
23:45
They then sent it to us via e-mail and you cannot see the coin travelling, there's no image of it at all.
But when we then went to the property much later and then we downloaded it direct from the camera, we can't see the flight of the coin.
24:03
It's there.
So we now know that it was travelling through the air and just didn't just appear mid manifest itself, almost like a dematerialization.
It wasn't quite the case and that was because we just took the trouble getting the original without being having the e-mail or the mobile phone involved where it's changing formats.
24:27
If for example if you're using some cams and you download the video onto an iPhone, it will put it into a complete, it might do an MP, MP4 or one them sort of format.
If you're using a Windows based computer then it's going to use a Windows Media so it actually reformat the the visual as well as the audio and that's where it begins to degrade And it may not always be exactly what you think it is.
24:56
You see that's the that's the thing with it.
But I think with audio and an AVP there are it performs differently because we've got to accept that that a ghost is unable to communicate with you via normal means.
25:13
It hasn't got a mechanical mouth, and if a human speaks to you, sound travels on molecules towards you, and the furthest away it goes, more frequency begin to dissipate.
If it goes through solid objects, it will remove frequency from it, so by the time it hits the recorder the frequency will look slightly different.
25:34
With EVP I generally support the hypothesis of a projected sound onto a memory card, for example, because I've been eight and one on enable where I'm pretty confident I have got an EVP to be able to duplicate it by it or the means.
25:56
It just looks different, if that makes any sense.
Completely, yeah.
No, it does.
Makes complete sense.
Yeah.
So when you look at the wraps, which is another one that we were, we would say we're going to talk about the Poltergeist wrapping obviously associated with a lot of Poltergeist cases, but it's generally that's the most often reported phenomena with general hauntings, high end hauntings, poltergeists where people will often say I heard footsteps upstairs or I heard banging the have they heard footsteps or have they heard something else.
26:38
So it's quite prevalent and sometimes people say the rap, If people say I've heard of rap, they will generally associate that with the poltergeist.
But you do heard them in general hauntings as well.
And what I was able to discover about five years ago in a place in Chester which is central Cheshire, whereas it was a case that we were in principle, we've never actually closed the case down.
27:05
And what actually happened when the first lockdown occurred, you know COVID.
And what then happened is that the business establishment went into full blown lockdown, everyone was working at home and the owners decided to fill this place with a full of TCTV camera.
27:24
The cameras then began to alert and we were then tasked to go and find out what exactly what was occurring.
So what we can't say is the building was divided of any human, there's no one in there at all.
Yet these strange events were occurring and what actually occurred happened on several occasions.
27:45
Captured on CCTV is objects such as the stapler or a tape dispenser we just launched itself captured on camera.
So what we began to do then is to place objects around each room to see if it could be captured because it needed generally allow bangs such as that sort of sound for the camera to trigger the cards alert and the alarm to to occur.
28:22
So if you, for example, let's give you a visual aid, say a cricket ball, yeah.
Yeah.
And I got that cricket ball and placed it on top of a filing cabinet which is a Bob without falling at 4 foot away from the the floor underneath it.
28:39
The cricket ball then falls off.
And when you look at a CCTV and it appears to roll and fall.
So your question is, so when the cricket ball actually falls, you think, well as they've been in vibration and the balls just fell, you can also do the same with a square object where you've got a flat surface.
29:03
What we actually did then, we because it's captured on camera, we're able to duplicate the event entirely using the same camera, same filing cabinet, same object, and just push it off with a finger.
It falls on the floor.
What we realised straight away was that when we pushed it off the desk or the cabinet, if you can imagine like a pyramid, you know, like the pyramid of Giza, you get that sort of shape when the ball or the object hits the ground.
29:39
Yet when it fell off by unknown reasons, it's almost like a tall chimney of signal, almost like a pen upright, with no side frequency evident whatsoever.
So that's an interesting question.
29:56
Now is if if a spook comes along and he thinks right, I'm going to move that object, throw it on the floor.
His job is over, but I don't think it is because it seems to be.
When the object is flawed, the camera picks the sound up.
30:13
Either analyzer is performing completely different.
It's almost as if it's surrounded in like a glove or a cushion which cushions the sound from ejecting outwards.
And the reason why when the microphone picks it up, it's performing so differently.
30:32
Does that make sense?
That sounds fascinating.
I mean I'm I'm trying to think of a different way maybe explaining it almost like a sound within a within a tunnel within a space that you can't see, like you said a glove.
So that like it's not it's not kind of going outwards like you mentioned it is.
30:51
It's got this barrier that you can't see.
So like you said, it's performing differently.
Differently the sound is different you.
Analyse Yeah, me colleague from the SPR Doctor Barry Colvin.
He did some work some years ago and he found the same issue.
31:09
It seemed to perform differently.
His hypothesis was that the sound seemed to be so.
For example, if you're hearing rapping, you haven't a clue where you don't generally know where the sound's coming from.
It seems to work differently, so we can generally guarantee that the ghost isn't using a physical hand to tap the table.
31:34
He suggested that it is a sound coming from within the wood outwards, and that's the reason why the frequency different.
But I've suggested a different hypothesis.
Now it's a, it must be some form of energy that's involved that does the wrapping.
31:51
So it's almost the way IT projects energy into a source and you get the bangs of thoughts and so on that occur in different volume.
And certainly I've investigated for iron poltergeist cases.
32:08
And the more you do, the may, the more you become knowledgeable.
The way that this thing generally operates.
And what you'll find is when the outbreak first occurs, you know you'll probably get old, someone will make a contact, and it's generally because they're hearing noises.
32:27
They don't understand Michelle and it frightens them, which you can understand.
You then get involved early, and what you then begin to do when you measure these is over the period of weeks to begin to increase in volume velocity.
It's almost as if it's building up its energy, learning how to use the energy before you finally gets into at the higher end of object movements and that type of thing where it's able to move heavy objects.
32:58
You know, Guy Line Playfair's quite a famous person.
He's no longer with his night pass away.
A couple years ago he was heavily involved with the the Enfield haunting with the Enfield case.
It's Germany Morris Gross that gets mentioned.
But Guy Line Playfair also played a typical role in in in that particular case and he investigated the case in Brazil of a fully operational poltergeist where it moved a two ton Land Rover about 30 foot.
33:25
So that's a sort of territory and Guy Lane Playfair actually saw this with his own eyes.
So, and if you know Glyde Playfair, he's not one that he generally says it how it is and I generally believe what he was experiencing.
33:42
So moving an object like a panel remote control is probably a piece of cake where if we can move a tooth to a mantra over.
So that's the sort of territory we can move into.
But undoubtedly with the poltergeists we're getting these things like the the rapping and the sounds of it's using energy.
33:59
And I think, I think we're on the way now to understanding what these raps are because it's not using a physical hand.
What is the object of making the sounds in the 1st place?
Why is it these these sounds in the case in Chester, that was an interesting place because what we were able to do there is demonstrate intelligent wrapping by asking a series of questions.
34:29
And what we found is when we initially tried them, we'd write 10 questions down if anyone tried.
Yeah, the best way is to have one person in the room alone, monitor from distance, have its preset questions exactly and time on 10 seconds between each question.
34:47
So for example they have to be yes or no answers.
So you might say for example I want I would like one wrap for yes, two wraps of a no.
Are you a male and you wait 10 seconds?
Are you a female?
35:03
You can generally be flexible with the question depending on if you're here in the raft and what you'll generally find.
If you're dealing with an intelligent polter guide, the raps will begin to decrease in distance.
So initially maybe 1012 seconds, then it'd be 8 seconds, 5 seconds, 3 seconds, and I'm dealing with the case now for lady and she's got it down to two seconds.
35:29
Asked the question.
Bang.
Exactly 2 seconds after that.
Then you're dealing with some form of intelligence, whatever that intelligence is.
Interesting, yeah.
It is interesting and I think it suggests so many different things because I think it very much plays on that notion of obviously it being something very intellectual.
35:52
But also like you, you were talking about how almost this energy is feeding the energy itself.
And so it it's it's becoming something much more intense and I think you see that then in in in the ability to give a much quicker response and to grow in intensity.
36:11
So the sound might change, it might be louder all of those different things.
And it's it's I think it's important to start again like to uncover some of that and to kind of tease some of that apart to reels try and appreciate like you said what's happening and to gain that further insight and knowledge as to why you know how, how a poltergeist case for example or any other haunting how it initially manifests and then how it changes over the time and what does that then tell us as investigators.
36:41
Yeah, because we your most common investigation we deal with around about 160 cases per year and I've done for quite a number of years and 99% will be general hauntings, white spirity stuff.
36:59
Then you get the the high end poltergeist which is incredibly rare.
So you haven't got massive amounts of data available to you to actually use to look from one case to the other, but they do differ greatly.
37:15
Certainly the case of Enfield, which is probably the most famous UK poltergeist case I initially they were dealing with wrapping Knox bangs.
Thoughts. 18 months later this thing began to talk and the boys came behind Janet Hudson, full male voice.
37:37
But it took time for them to get to that point.
It was an instant and I think when you start to look at cases because General Poltergeist will be gone 1216 weeks.
But there are some.
The case that I'm with now has been going on in March next month.
37:55
It's seven years old, but it has had periods of times, which I call recycling.
It goes dormant for period, and then it starts itself up and it generally will evolve again.
They're ultimately fascinating, What these things get up to nowhere.
38:14
We're nowhere near close to understanding.
Are we dealing with a dead individual, some pastaway, classic spirit?
Are we dealing with some form of PKR reoccurring?
Spontaneous power?
38:30
Psychokinesis.
There seems to be elements of of of everything in there.
I asked the medium recently that I've got no I've got this psychic ability of a snail.
I don't sense or feel anything, to be honest.
38:47
I envy those.
It can, but I have.
I do keep in contact with a high number of mediums because I'm interested.
I think it's you.
You've got to be.
So I asked the medium that what do you think of what's occurring as well?
39:04
I don't really feel anything, but I felt something on that this other room as well.
If a poltergeist hasn't been a living person at any point, it's some form of like hybrid energy form for example.
39:23
Is that reason why you can't lock on to this?
You don't feel anything?
It's quite possible, but again, it's just a theory and we really got no way to go.
We don't understand what on earth it is.
In the case of Hanfield, the everyone suggested that it was associated because of Janet Hodgson and the Sister Margaret of a female reaching puberty.
39:49
But if you look at other cases like the South Shields poltergeist, there wasn't one.
There's just an 18 year old month old boy, so he's not reaching puberty.
And the case that we're dealing with now, that has nothing to do with teenagers reaching puberty.
40:04
So sometimes you can go well because it can be sent on a wrong path pathway and it's come to a red herring so to speak, because we simply don't know what it is they do exist.
But understanding it, it's the $1,000,000 question.
40:24
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I I think part of the problem is something you mentioned earlier because this is a phenomena that doesn't happen all of the time.
43:40
There aren't as many examples of it.
And I think because of that there has been, there's been some type casting in the sense that you know poltergeist case will always look like this.
It's it's usually around a young teenage girl or it's very short lived.
It's only going to last a certain amount of time and then it stops.
43:58
And you know, there are things that change.
They're not always the same.
They are much more complex and I think it's growing that picture and really trying to tease about, tease apart the detail.
Yeah, because people.
Again to keep adding to it.
Yeah, because sometimes people too often look for the for the smoking gun.
44:17
Why did this trigger the the SP Rs terminology with it Is spontaneous activity spontaneous, and that's correct.
It just comes from nowhere and sometimes you can't find a smoking gun.
Why this could occur and sometimes we just don't know why this happens.
44:40
There are certainly dynamics because you know, people have said over recent times it could be stress related.
That's the energy source.
That's the reason the person's stress, the person becomes like a human agent, PK and so and so forth.
44:58
Well, it's stress related.
Well, how many households in the UK have got stress?
95% of them.
Would you say it's so?
Tired To be honest, yeah.
I think we'd all be having poltergeist cases and activity in all of our homes.
Yeah, Was the only the only source of what was going on.
45:16
What we can say with the poltergeist is ultra ultra bizarre.
This case now is 7 years.
I have got the OK to talk about certain aspects.
I spoke to the householder last week and said we've come doing the podcast and may need to reference certain areas of it because you know it's important that we make it as interesting impossible.
45:37
But if I was to save you for example, I'd be dealing with the case that for the last 14 months and we have in daily contact with with the family, we've got cameras for remote cameras which we operate.
45:54
Keeping an eye on this one, what would you consider to be a in total number in say 12 months of activity as a as a guest?
I'm just interested to see what your thoughts were.
Oh, less than 10.
46:12
Less than 10, yeah.
So you would think that somebody's got something in there going on the House last 12 months about 10:10 or so of events.
Yeah, around then.
Yeah, I can tell you.
I can tell you exactly how many because we we keep a day of diary, which is 838 separate events since the 30th of October to last week, 838 events including five.
46:43
It's only 458 coins just come from nowhere.
It will switch TV channels over at random, monitored by CCTV.
It will write into search engines as well in the CC, in the in the television.
47:00
It will flash.
One of the strangest things we've seen there Ken all monitors on CCTV is 1.
Room will just flash its head off.
It's light change, the lights makes no difference, it just flashes anyway.
Then nothing happens.
Three it moves on to something else.
47:17
Trying to find out an answer to this family is proving quite a challenge.
They find great comfort with the cameras, which is good because I think when people, when it comes Carling, the first problem that people have is people is the believability side of things, people believing what you're saying is an obstacle or challenge for the person that's telling you.
47:48
And sometimes we can be quite guilty by we say, well where's your evidence for this?
Where we've got any video, we've got any audio, we've got any picture, but you also need to consider if you've got six or seven people or witness something utterly bizarre, you would prosecute a person based on on six or seven statements, wouldn't you take them to court.
48:14
So why do we not apply the same science into, and we generally do, people do like the evidence and we have got this with this property.
We haven't got any closer to understanding it, but what we have got is it's probably the most closely monitored case on record and at some point in time it's going to become spoken about.
48:38
But because it's a live case, obviously I just can't compromise the location of the individual because.
Can you imagine you'd have half the country probably descending on there to try and see what was going on.
You know that kind of attraction isn't it?
That interest that just yeah can spark and go out of control.
48:56
So anonymity is absolutely crucial whilst a an investigation is going on, but also so beef are they for the family still living there and undergoing.
Yeah, yeah.
Because it's like those examples that gave you, you know, if I was to say 458 kinds have been imported into your property.
49:15
People listening to, I don't believe that a television that writes in its search engine, 666 on other words, wouldn't believe it.
What they do when it's captured on TV CCTV, and this is when, you know, when you're faced with this as an investigator, it is a challenge.
49:39
The believability aspect, Michelle, it's got to be because you're dealing with ultra bizarre phenomena that's been reported to you.
You know, my husband was sat on the bottom of the stairs and the Hoover just lifted itself up and smashed him into his face.
49:56
If you hear this, are you going to believe it?
The answer is you're going to have your doubts, aren't you?
You'd have to be, yeah.
Most people would.
Yeah.
So sometimes when the investigator becomes the experience, the dynamics changes.
50:13
Because you know when you moved into that territory, when you see something so profound that you think any doubts, lingering doubts I may have had over this bizarre phenomena is now ended.
50:28
And you become more committed to the cause of trying to finance it.
Because you know, what is the message here where a coins your support from, you just hear a tinkle and you've got 510 pence one piece, 2 pence coins on the floor.
50:47
What's the relevance?
Why, where they come from?
Why are they there?
I don't make any sense out of this one at all.
You know, unusual container tots being thrown around a bedroom is another one of a recent time.
51:03
It's not associated with the house yet.
We don't know what's developments to that.
Super, super strange.
And I think it's also, I think it's also really strange some of the phenomena that is very specific to poltergeist cases, which again are so bizarre and unusual and in, you know, can be quite extreme.
51:24
If we think about the ability to set fires, strange puddles of water appearing, all of these are the things that can occur.
And yet trying to understand how is that possible?
How is that happening and why?
What's going on for these for these things to happen and why we have these certain commonalities in a lot of the cases?
51:44
Yeah the if you look at the world worldwide of the poltergeist cases, we the UK doesn't have too many what they call the fire starter Poltergeist.
I think the last case that I'm aware of was 1986 in in Gloucester.
52:00
Apart from that there are very, very few of them.
Yeah.
If you go to India, Africa, United States as well, they've had a few of the Pyro Pots, UK thankfully we don't get many of them if any.
Every case is bizarre and unusual, and it's very difficult to understand the the rationale.
52:22
What what's occurring where, How did it start in the 1st place and why does it manifest in this way?
If you're dealing with some sort of trouble, spirits, it's lost or whatever, moping around your property trying to get a message to you.
52:38
It might be a relative or friend, you can understand that, but the poltergeist is something completely different and it's really difficult and every case is so radically the oddball.
Would you like to give you a prime example?
52:55
Wham to us in September?
Yeah.
No, please do.
This is when the investigator comes the experiencer.
Now what actually happened in the end of August, September, the family of this property in ASIC moved and went on to holiday and opened the property up to us for a week.
53:20
So I'm based in Central Cheshire, Amanda is based in Staffordshire, my other colleague is based in London.
So we all met there and decided we're going to stay there for five nights and six days, bought ourselves in a property.
53:35
Let's see if we can experience in this first, and this is the second investigation, the previous one we've done, when the family were in property, we just stayed in the hotel.
So what I've decided to do, we need to live like the family tried to cook, wash, shower, do everything the same is what the family did.
53:57
And that's just experience in the property.
We had some jumble things we were going to do such as energy measurements and so on.
So the first night we arrived back, we've gone out for tea, come back about 9:00, see me on CCTV.
54:13
Go in the kitchen.
I've got the car.
I put my car key on the side of the kitchen surface, captured on CCTV.
We then had a coffee, sat down with the night, went to bed.
Following morning we wake up.
Now what I've got to do now, coming on to lunchtime is go to the shop to get some bread, some sandwich meats and cheeses and stuff.
54:38
I can't find my car keys, so I said China can't find it.
Now my colleague Andy drink what?
He's based in Chester.
He was monitoring the cameras from there.
So I said to Annie, look, can you go and find out what I do in my car keys?
54:55
Because I remember coming through and I thought, like he said, they were on the kitchen.
You put them on the kitchen.
But I can't see what's happened from sense now because it's keyless car.
I've got a problem.
I've got no car.
I'm 260 miles away and I thought, well, we're just going to have to find them, you know, looking through coats, pockets and mislaid them.
55:21
We can't find them.
So anyway, I walked to the shop, Come back that night.
We're setting up now a second camera because we were sleeping in all the it's a four bedroom house.
Each one of us has selected a room we're staying in and we're going to put cameras in there, so we set them up.
So Amanda Griffiths now goes to what called Box 2 to get a lead out, which is always we've done, is taken it out the car, put it into the into the house.
55:48
Boxes are put on top, takes the box off the top, goes into the bottom box.
There's my car keys at the bottom of the box.
Now, no matter how we've looked at the CCTV and analyse this, the three of us come away scratching ahead.
56:05
What happened to the khakis the following day I smoked cigars, particular brand of cigars.
So I've taken a full brand new box of cigars and a lighter.
They disappeared and I've never seen them since.
So from an experience, what happened to me, Khakis?
56:25
Did my colleagues do this as a practical joke on the CCTV bolt cameras, kitchen camera and the hallway camera?
Not the case.
No one went near that route.
That box too Out of the car keys?
56:41
Get there, Michelle.
I have no idea.
I'm scratching my head as much as you.
And and what actually happened with that when it came out of it, we actually do a report for the SPR because it's in a way it was like a joint investigation with the with the cells leading above, with the SPR involved with it.
57:00
They've been an absolute godsend to this one, which is incredibly complicated.
Kate and I have great difficulty while here to talk about this event because no one's going to believe a word I say, people.
Now listen, I don't buy that one.
It's actually true and it moves you into territory of the experience, which is often the power investigator when they're dealing with clients that can't contact them, they're telling you bizarre stories.
57:28
You know, bananas that disappear never to be seen again is is another one that that's happened to 1 case that we've had with.
And how many of these do you hear?
You know, I mean how do you get people?
57:44
It's not a question of getting people to believe, to believe.
People believe whatever they they want to believe, but it's uncomfortable for the investigator when it sort of becomes the experience.
I'd never had it before.
I don't know if anything's ever happened to yourself, Michelle.
58:01
Well, I was just, I was just going to say that I've had an experience of only a very small number of us going into a property and nobody else.
It was locked.
The house was locked behind us and we went upstairs so there was nobody downstairs and we kind of done a a walk around everywhere.
58:21
So we've been around all the rooms downstairs and we were basically going upstairs to check out these other rooms.
So we knew where everyone was.
We knew no one else outside had access to the house.
And in the living room in this house was a chess set on a table.
And when we came downstairs, one of the pieces from the chess set that had been on this full set, this board that had been laid out in the living room, one of the pieces was literally laid at the foot of the stairs, just laying there in the hallway.
58:52
And as I said, we were all upstairs.
This was a this was a house where poltergeist activity was reported frequently.
And it's what, again, it's very similar to what you were just saying of none of us could explain it because we were all upstairs.
59:07
There was no one else that had been in the property.
It was locked.
Every window was shut and locked.
Every door was locked.
And the only people in the house were all together in this very tiny house.
I mean, you could hear a pin drop if someone moved.
We were all upstairs in each other's company.
59:24
Yeah.
And yet this piece was missing from the living room.
Chess, You know, the chess board, Yeah.
And had been placed purposefully, I think, at the foot of the stairs, where it was going to be clearly visible towards the minute we all started to come back down from upstairs.
Yeah, yeah.
59:40
That's another example.
How do you explain it?
Yeah, yeah.
The, the, and this is where I think for for me, because I I generally deal with the client from the outside, is I have a lot more empathy now because I've experienced something bizarre, which I know certainly people are like, Oh yeah, I like this story.
1:00:02
But for me it did generally happen and I haven't got an explanation for it.
And that that one example you've just explained there is another fascinating story of these things that occur and we haven't got a even closer rational explanation why, What's the relevance for this?
1:00:19
You know you can.
I'll never understand, you know, because if my we could never be 100% with anything that we experienced.
But I'm 99.9% certain.
My keys went from the kitchen into into a box which had been left unopened and stayed there for a day and hour.
1:00:43
How did it get there?
We can't see it on the camera.
It seems to have disappeared from the the work surface into into a box and we, I don't know and like that when it happened, something utterly bizarre.
1:01:01
What is physics?
It's occurring there for this to do this exchange, you know.
But I think that is the that is the thing that word physics.
It's what what energy, what's what is happening, What's the size behind some of these phenomena that you're seeing where there is the puddle on the floor, whether it is the spontaneous fire that erupts, whether it is something being moved around and these very peculiar sounds that are heard, these, these are the all these types of phenomena.
1:01:28
How is it that that is somehow being projected in into the space?
How is that manipulating the environment to create that, to create that phenomena?
And that's the really, that's the puzzling question that I still don't think we analyse and talk about enough.
1:01:44
No, I think when you there has to be an energy involved here for these things to occur.
There has to be, I don't believe for a second that you can move an object on on thought alone.
There has to be some form of energy transfer however that takes place and I think with the the Chester case that we dealt with with the the move we had loads of movements of objects.
1:02:12
This other case we haven't had so much.
It's more or ported objects directly into it.
And this is where we looked at the energy side and think about how what we experienced there is like a form of compressed energy, almost like a balloon and then IT projects it into the area, the balloon skin disappears and suddenly this energy is transformed and does whatever it is it wants to do, move an object, make a sound.
1:02:44
It's very, very difficult and even when we've taken some real high end equipment in with a, we've never been able to really measure it, not in the the numbers which we would expect to see.
We simply don't know.
1:03:00
Are you familiar with the trend slit experiment?
I'm not.
You'd have to walk me through that one.
Yeah, the the easiest way with that one, I think it because I'd be 10 minutes trying to explain it to you, is to probably just make a note of it, call the twin set experiment and look at that.
1:03:17
That may give you some ideas of the the area that we're looking into.
When we talk about the physics, we may actually be in the realms of the the quantum physics side, where the suggestion is it's something like a monetary atom, for example, would have a conscious thought.
1:03:38
You'd have to look at that one separately and and and digest that.
I wouldn't be able to do it justice because I think you need the visual aid.
I've actually seen the video playing with that one.
For that one, Michelle, so.
I'll try and find it though and share it for people listening so that they can they can have that as a reference point once they've listened to the podcast.
1:03:57
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I think anyone listen and to go on to YouTube, put twin slip experiment and they can see a genuine scientific proof of this is a genuine something that occurs, This is reality.
It appears to be that an atom as a conscious thought and can change what it's doing just on the point of the stage of observation, which is something which is interesting with the poltergeist.
1:04:27
It's incredibly rare if not unprecedented, to capture its behaviour on camera.
The case that you're dealing with now, three nights ago, a comfort.
You know the comfort liquid the Alpha put in washer and a washer.
1:04:45
It was on the side and the male house all examined, admonished tea in the kitchen.
You hear this bang, you can see him react and look over and he's he notifies us.
We then access that camera, but it's just off camera.
1:05:03
We can hear it and we can see his reaction, but we can't see the Comfort Buffle, which is apparently just lifted itself up and dropped onto the floor.
It's just off camera and you get a lot of this just off camera.
It's always catching it at your most vulnerable when you're not quite with it, you know?
1:05:25
Is there a science behind that?
I don't know.
You know?
It's an easy excuse to use.
The poltergeist doesn't want to be captured on camera.
Their point does everything off it.
But in my experience that's that's the case.
That's how it seems to operate.
1:05:41
The quantum physics aspect of it is is one that I think has for me.
I think it's the next step.
It's where I would like to see a lot more kind of research and work done into it.
Because I think there are so many possibilities when you start to tease apart consciousness, quantum physics, the relationship between them and when then you start to think about all these different theories about entanglement etcetera.
1:06:07
That I mean, there's so many things that could then be explained when we start to kind of see that duality between.
Because sometimes we have got the science, just give us some clues.
If you look for them and what we're talking about the paranormal is the hypothesis is the afterlife is does the consciousness survive bodily death And you know the physics for 100 plus years about, well how can a consciousness energy survive when it's in its brain?
1:06:42
The brain dies.
How does it survive?
Is it'll dissipate like smoke?
Like a?
Battery.
You know, yeah, that's right.
It's got a cell life.
It dies.
It gradually disappears.
Yeah, Now Einstein always said energy cannot be destroyed.
It can either be transformed or transferred.
1:06:59
And it wasn't really till 2013 when, Doctor, I think it's Peter Higgs disabled to find the mythical, what they call the ghost particle.
Because if you look at an atom, everything's atoms, there's an enemy shell.
1:07:15
Every single thing is all atom.
Without it the universe doesn't exist.
What physics is long theorizes How does an atom which is going to contain a minimum of three components, 1 neutron, one proton and one electron with a nucleus in the centre, How does them four components remain together in one single mass?
1:07:39
So what he was actually do using a particle accelerator, by impacting atoms against one another, what they're able to detect is much smaller minute particles, almost like a glue that keeps the atom structure together.
1:07:56
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, completely.
I think that's a really good way of actually explaining it.
Yeah, in a very simple way.
Yeah, so it sticks together like a glue.
So therefore when an individual passes on the consciousness, they can in fact survive because of they actually call it the Higgs Bolton particle.
1:08:17
The conscious can survive because of the of exposed them.
Because it's glued and stuck together, it doesn't dissipate like smoke.
It could continue on and will as I stand said either will transform or transferred into some other entity, dimension, whatever it is, it comes under the umbrella of the afterlife.
1:08:41
So I think science in that way can explain that the consciousness undoubtedly can survive because we've got the science to back that up.
The other areas is we need to go much deeper and I think you know for hundreds of years, you know the SPR have been going for 137 years which a long time.
1:09:11
We're barely scratching the surface of our understanding of what is actually occurring here.
And it's a fascinating subject because if you look at people in the UK, there's 65 million of us, 35 million of us generally believe that the in in spiritual ghosts and spirits 35,000,000.
1:09:35
So there's a quite a way it will be in worldwide.
And your other science size is where you do the research we mentioned about EVP.
Now those practice practitioners of EVP that have dealt with hundreds of them will generally say the standard 100 Evps, 70 of them will be male compared to 30 female.
1:10:02
Why is that?
Well, if you take that point a little bit further into the area of you're familiar with past lives, Yeah, not past life aggression, it's past life.
So this is generally kids at the imaginary fence.
1:10:19
So it may be between two and six years of age, which is where the child appears to have unusual information, preferably pre Internet days, which she shouldn't have.
I used to fly on a course air aeroplane.
1:10:35
I was killed in the Second World War.
I crashed in Hirojima in Japan.
A child of five wouldn't necessarily have that information.
Now Jim Tucker who investigated over 3000 cases of past lives within children.
What he found is on the 3000 cases looked at all of them 70% were male compared to 30% female.
1:11:02
Now that doesn't suggest for 2nd that more males get reincarnated this female, because what it does do it mirrors exactly if you take a standard 1000 unnatural deaths, unnatural being, murder, suicide, war, conflict, that type multi accidents, it's generally 70% male compared to 30% female because the male generally takes more risk with his life than a female does.
1:11:36
So here we have a pattern of past lives which is 70% male to 30% female mirrors unnatural deaths that 7030 and AVPS are 70% male compared to 30% female.
1:11:54
Are they relevant to one another?
How about the all red herring is it's left to the to yourself to decide on that one.
But interesting all the same, isn't it?
Oh, my brain's already starting to go down certain rabbit holes with that information and thinking Crikey, yeah, that's that's some very interesting.
1:12:13
We can back that though.
That's that's something that science has proved in all pre-K said happens to be the 7030 equation.
Does it get any closer understanding Maybe not.
But it is hard fat.
It's not an invented theory, you know the they seem to be that way inclined and may give us some sort of answer to what's going on out there.
1:12:34
It's fascinating.
And again, this is, this is what I think is so intriguing when you start to start to go down the path of investigating the paranormal because there are just so many aspects to it and things to it's still things that you can uncover and more questions that then come up and then more questions after that.
1:12:53
And it is something that I just think is such a big concept and there is so much that we don't know and just not enough people really investigating it unfortunately And really bringing together all the skill sets from different kind of aspects of professions, experiences, backgrounds like they would do in terms of other science, other areas of science, which is the shame.
1:13:20
Yeah, anyone that has a a part of interest in the paranormal, I highly highly recommend that you join organisations.
It's ASAP, which is for electronic.
It's only £5 a year, £20 if you want.
1:13:36
The magazines come to your post, but five.
They have webinars every Thursday night, every every week, every Thursday.
This brings like minded people together and they're not generally they're not all it's not academia.
1:13:51
It's not all pan obvious against general people have a general interest in this this and likewise with the SPR you know it's more academia based more science based.
Both organisations offer fantastic resources particularly the SPR.
They go back to 1884.
1:14:08
You know the all our archives are now slowly but move moving online to be available paramount for people like me that get a complicated case and we want to do the best for the family and at the same time try to understand it.
1:14:27
Because there isn't any of us out there that know everything you need often need to go on to resources you had to go and leave back on didn't you?
Some a few weeks ago.
Yeah.
American, yeah.
Just before Christmas.
1:14:43
Really fascinating conversation.
But you know, and I think this is the key thing everybody there's, there's different things and approaches and kind of key takeaways that you learn from talking to different people or hearing from different people or reading different articles.
1:14:59
And I think that again is that the main take away is that not to be in that vacuum like you were, you were mentioning, you know, being more aware of what's out there and who's out there to help as part of that journey?
Yeah.
Oh yeah, And it's a heck of a journey.
You know, I could do this for the rest of my life and probably be a little bit closer to understanding.
1:15:19
But you know, we live in hope that we'll find one day that the ultimate smoking gun.
But it appears to we only seem to be confined so much, but not everything.
And it's more frustrating job you'll ever get involved with, because you also have to become an an expert in things that you'd never thought you'd be an expert in, such as crickets, cuckoo birds, cows, foxes, all these strange things that you need to suddenly, you know, hear some sounds and you need to fit.
1:15:52
Your job is to go find out what it is.
And it happened to be a cricket.
Another occasion it was a cuckoo and you got these other different dynamics to it and you become almost like a Jack and all trace trying find the answers because sometimes you can find rational explanations.
1:16:09
In Charles not everything is paranormal by any stretch but sometimes you're left with no alternative.
Then something quite unusual is is occurring here and you know will we find out what that is.
Because I don't know what you know.
1:16:29
We all, you know, quite sure you've had this thought yourself.
If we're ever to have absolute conclusive proof of an afterlife, the world will change in an instance, won't it?
It would completely.
I'm not sure that that it would be good one.
1:16:47
It'd be a positive way.
I don't know.
Maybe it's a question for another day, but an interesting one all the same.
I think it would.
I think for half the population it would be deeply unsettling to have have certainties around what that means because I think it shifts their world view, either either one way or the other.
1:17:11
And I think for a lot of people that is hugely disconcerting.
And then to think that there might be things happening around you that you can't see.
Yeah, I'm with you.
I'm not sure that for some it would be something that they would be able to cope with.
No, I think you're right.
1:17:28
I don't think it would do it because areas such as religion, you come into problems.
There are issues with that, but people like myself because of careers, let's get older.
1:17:43
You lose friends, loved ones, and knowing that there is something else out there.
When eventually I pass on, it has to bring a form of comfort because bereavement and grief is soul destroying to any individual that's gone through it.
1:17:59
I've gone through it a number of times and I'm quite sure you've experienced it yourself, Michelle.
It's deeply, deeply unpleasant.
But hold on to the fact that you know, when we do pass on, there may be something else waiting there for us than the place that we live in at the moment.
1:18:16
Because it's quite an unsettled world, isn't it?
It is, Yep.
You only have to turn on your news on a night and you think, gosh, yeah it's it's horrible.
Some of the things that we kind of have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
And and like you said, I think sometimes for some it is absolutely something that is a source of comfort to know, to know that and to have that belief and that certainty of something after death.
1:18:43
And for others, it's completely scary.
And I think if it was proved certain or if it was disproved, either way they're going to be people that are upset with the outcome.
And I think that's the difficulty.
And I don't know if that's why it polarises opinion and it polarises.
1:18:59
Whether people take it seriously, I don't know.
But it's it's not a, it's not a subject matter that I think will ever lose interest.
I mean, if we think about how long human beings have been fascinated with what happens to us after death, I mean that's that's as old as earliest human beings, isn't it so?
1:19:20
Yeah, that's right.
Because, you know, if you look at this paranormal, supernatural, the Stonehenge predates Christianity by thousands of years.
They had a strong belief in some form of afterlife.
1:19:37
The reason why they went to extraordinary lengths that they did do to build these structures.
So see it predates Christianity by quite a big margin.
And I think I'm not a particularly I will guide myself is agnostic and a spiritualist.
1:19:56
I'm certainly not religious and to that extent you know I think it's our estate to be honest.
You know spiritualists generally get on OK together.
You'd never get attacked by a spiritualist either.
Doesn't happen so.
1:20:13
But yeah, I think at some point in time we'll probably get there thinking, ah, yeah, I was right.
After all what happens now?
So yeah, but in the moment, all we're doing is scratching the surface.
It's a new scratching surface and hopeful hopefully to to find a couple more answers.
1:20:33
Oh yeah.
Honestly it's been so fascinating to talk to you when you are such a wealth of of knowledge and to the podcast description that's so people can come in and see your website, be able to access some of the material that you've got on there and you know the the different things that you've collated as a you know it's a really useful resource bank.
1:20:56
And yeah, honestly thank you so much for your time.
It's honestly been absolutely fascinating.
No, I've been talking.
We could talk about anything.
We.
Could have gone down the route of Poltergeist WE.
Could have gone down the route of in terms of the the land, this you know the geography of the land, how that might impact.
1:21:12
I mean there's so many different things that we could have spoken about and we would have been here for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.
That's just how complex you know the field is, I think.
Well, maybe.
Some of the points, if we ever do another one, we can we can lock into how to run a case where you do look into location in depth travelling back into the into it, trying to find the answers why these things happen when the Matrix suddenly fractured and you've got a poltergeist running around property.
1:21:47
So yeah, yeah, that yeah, that would be a really interesting one.
I think that.
Would be great for a future podcast.
You're welcome back for that one anytime.
Yeah, yeah, no problem at all.
So we'll we should.
Look forward to speaking again.
It's it's some tough point in the future hopefully.
1:22:02
Honestly, it's been such a pleasure and.
I say goodbye to everybody listening.
Bye, everybody.
OK.
Bye.
