The Black Hours: Modern Demonic Experiences & Folklore

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Michelle: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. First of all, thank you for taking a listen to this episode. Before we begin, I just want to throw out a few ways you can get involved and help support the show. We have a patreon page as well as an Amazon link, so hopefully if you're interested in supporting, you can find a way that best suits you. All of the links for those can either be found in the show notes or over on the website. Of course, just continuing to help spread the word of the show on social media, leaving reviews and sharing with friends and family is also a huge help. So thank you for all that you do. And now let's get started by introducing today's podcast or guest.

Michelle : Welcome to another episode of Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast that delves deep into the darker pages of history and realms of the supernatural. Today, we're diving headfirst into the world of demons and folklore with demon folklorist and author Victoria J, who has been a previous guest. She's here to tell us more about her book The Black Hours, a tome that promises to unlock the secrets of modern demonic experiences and folklore. Brace yourselves as we venture into The Black Hours modern Demonic Experiences and Folklore, a meticulously crafted reference guide that will leave paranormal investigators and the curious public alike spellbound demons have always been shrouded in enigma, lurking in the shadows of our collective imagination. But Victoria J, armed with her extensive knowledge, has set out to demystify these malevolent entities. Fasten your seatbelts as we unlock the pages of the Black Hours with author Victoria J.

Michelle: Hi. Victoria. Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Victoria Jaye : Thanks for having me again.

Michelle: So you've been on the podcast before where we briefly talked about the fact that you have a book that was coming out very imminently. And as of speaking tonight, it is due out even sooner and we can obviously get into when it's due to be out and so on in a little while. Do you want to just tell us some more about the book, give us a bit of an introduction in terms of the title and the motivations for the title? Because it's a brilliantly catchy title, in my opinion. Do you want to let everybody listening know a little bit more about the book itself and just introduce it to start with?

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, of course. So. It's called the Black Hours modern Demonic Experiences and folklore. The reason it's called The Black Hours is actually a weird feeling I got via my Claire audience, that it's in a poem somewhere, what you're looking for, the title you're looking for. And I ended up finding it. And it's sort of referenced, but it doesn't exactly say The Black Hours, but it says something about black hours and how it can kind of fall on you and it feels like things are never going to get better. So that's where that came from.

Michelle: Interesting story, though. I mean, it's an interesting way to come to a title because I've got to say, it's the one thing I always hate about generating a title for the podcast. It takes me forever scratching my head trying to decide what to call the thing. So, yeah, it's a brilliantly catchy title that just says it all. Really? Yeah.

Victoria Jaye : Once I found it, I fell in love and I was like, oh my God, that's it. Because I know how you feel. There was a period of time where I was having a lot of problems with titles. They just weren't coming to me. And then there are times that they come to me, like, really lightning fast, and I'm like, that's it, and I build it around the title. So this was actually once the book was pretty much done that I had figured that out. And then modern demonic experiences and folklore. I looked at modern because I think antiquity has been studied quite a bit and it's not really what interests me. I'm more interested in what demons are doing now.

Michelle: And the front cover itself is incredible, the artwork. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about the illustrator, the person that has helped produce that and why you kind of went with that theme? Because, again, it just seems so fitting with the book itself. I think it just seems to all come together perfectly.

Victoria Jaye : Yeah. So it was done by Christopher Maxwell. He goes by Dementia. He is incredibly talented. And I had reached out to him because a friend of mine had redone his artwork for his site for public speaking, and it had been on the topic of personal demons. So he had this guy do it, and that's how I became familiar with his work. And I sent him a message. And what I really love about Chris's work, he just took my idea and just ran with it and came up with something that was a lot different than what I was thinking, but was still perfect. And he gets excited with me, and I need people who get excited with me to work with me.

Michelle: Well, I think it's stunning. And I think when people get physical copies, they'll definitely agree or see the picture of it. It really does just seem to work with the title and with the concept and the whole thing. It's just come together beautifully. I know we spoke briefly about this in the last podcast, but do you want to just remind people again why you wanted to do this book? What prompted you to dive into this subject matter and put this into a book for people?

Victoria Jaye : So I had done this topic for my thesis, and my thesis advisor, Lisa, had been like, you should turn this into a book. And I was really burnt out by the time that she told me that. So I was like, Nah, I'm not doing that. But over time, I realized that I was still very passionate about it and it felt like I had to. It was something I couldn't run from. I had produced this work, and, yeah, I could have stopped there, but there was so much more work that I had done to expand it that had to be pared down for the original thesis of stories that weren't. Connected specifically, like to Ed and Lorraine Warren, for instance, because I had used their books for the thesis so that I could prove what I was saying was true, that there are in demonic behavior. And yeah, I got into writing it, and I remember now it was because I was at ATOMICON. It was my first ever conference on the paranormal track, talking know, I was on one about ghost stories, and then I had my own on demons, angels and gin. I realized that there was interest and there was a market for my book. And I started talking to people. And I eventually found my wonderful publisher, Kat Benstead, of Hear US Scream.

Michelle: I mean, I think from what you've just said, a really big takeaway from that is that what you've been doing is very much dependent upon the research that you've put into it's. A real crucial aspect of bringing together these different experiences and helping to catalog and to create something that means that you can show these observable patterns and that comes from looking at different source materials that, like you mentioned, are broader than just Ed and Lorraine Warren. Do you want to just take us through that process that you followed to gather that information and go about step by step what you were doing when analyzing those patterns and looking through those research materials that you had to hand, what you were doing to help gather that information, to then distill it into the black hours?

Victoria Jaye : Sure. So what I would do is I would read a demon book, and then I would either on my Kindle or sometimes physical copies. But honestly, I love my Kindle, so this might as well be an advertisement for Kindles because that's how much I love them. But I would highlight the piece of phenomena, meaning if it was something that could be seen, heard, smelled, or felt, I would highlight it and then note where it was, and then I would organize it into the system based off where I felt it should go. A lot of it was very like, especially when I was doing my thesis, a lot of it was very blind of just going through a simple outline, since outlines were really helpful to me in school. So I found using, like, I would start with a piece of phenomena. Like, for instance, let's see the smell of decay, like rotting garbage. Right. It'd be like something like that a letter it would start with. And that was the phenomena like in the outline.

Michelle: And it's that breaking down of the step by step what you were doing, because again, for someone then picking it up, they won't have known that that's something that you've come across via so many different sources where you're pulling out that same phenomena as it appears in different places. When they are referencing a case where they're referencing a report of some kind of activity and phenomena, you're pulling out those details and categorizing them and placing them into those different sensors to see what patterns you see coming up time and time and time again as something that stands out as observable repeated phenomena across these different experiences. So that over time, gathering that information from such a wide catalog of reported activity, from case records and so on and experiences, you've then got this list of, well, these phenomena are appearing time and time again. These are something reported that's being seen and experienced, and these are the kinds of things that I'm observing coming up time and time again. So it's a really interesting process to see what you were doing to kind of begin that and pull that together. Really? Yeah.

Victoria Jaye : When I was putting it together in grad school and I was trying to figure out what exactly I wanted to do with demons, it seemingly just sort of like, appeared to me that, oh, I want to figure out how they behave. The way to do that, I'm going to have to make a list of all the things that they can do and then it will show me what they can't do from that list. So that's really how it kind of all came together. Just very much instinctual for me working in demonology at all. It's all been very psychic based, I guess.

Michelle: I think what you've done is though approach this very oh, scientifically for sure.

Victoria Jaye : I tried to anyway, but I do.

Michelle: Think it is very scientific because you have taken these threads out of something that is written as a narrative piece. It's someone's experience that's been documented and written and recorded down. But then what you've taken is a strand, so a variant and you've then applied that variant to see where else it come across, if it comes across anywhere else at all. And so yeah, I mean it's very logistical, very scientific way to do that, where you by then are creating what is essentially a spider web of information across various different texts and accounts, all reporting phenomena whereby you can see these patterns as to what you see and what you don't see. And if there's then patterns as to where you see them and where else you might see them, if that's then kind of linking to some other kind of phenomena and entity. So again, it's a really interesting system, a lot of work. I mean I can't imagine how many books and source materials you went through in order to be able to do that. It must have been an enormous amount. But yeah, you've done an awful lot of work to be able to bring that together and to give that to people to consume, really.

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, it was a lot, I mean a lot of it had already been done, so I had that framework ready in case I wanted to do something with it later. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do and then of course I lost that document which had all that, so I had to read everything again except for what was already published in my thesis. So yeah, it was a lot of work but I think it's worth it just because, yeah, I'm trying to legitimize people's experiences because they often worry that they're not going to be believed and that nobody could believe such a crazy story. I'm always going to feel like an outcast and it's like actually this has happened before and almost exactly the same way.

Michelle: And I think that's something to kind of reiterate is that these experiences that you are looking into when you say you're coming across them in books and other materials, these are accounts, these are reported experiences, so this is someone's experience at some point that you're looking into. Again, I just think it's really interesting that you aren't looking at a specific case in isolation or a few which seems to be the pattern in terms of research before looking at a few examples. Instead, what you've done is have a much wider pool of information and sources to tap into, which is a much more thorough study, I would say, of the phenomena, to really hone in on what it is that you're seeing those patterns, as we've mentioned. Yeah, so a really interesting process to kind of what you were doing in order to pull that out. Really?

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, that is why I did it. It was because I noticed all demons in every single book. It was factual, but there wasn't cohesion there wasn't any kind of continuous thread. It was, oh, demons do like these five things to watch out for. And I was like, There must be much more information, but I couldn't find anybody who'd brought it all together. So I was like, Well, I guess that's going to be me. That's me.

Michelle: But that's what I mean about doing that across so many sources is very cohesive. It is looking at a much broader pool of information, isn't it? Rather than just a very small sample, what you've got is a much more rigorous process of research looking at that data, whereby then suddenly what you think is, well, you only have these types of things that are experienced, you suddenly notice much, much more because you've got a wider sample to look at. So, yeah, I think it is much more cohesive. It is much more of a continuation because you can follow something that you're finding through into other sources and discount it or place it somewhere else or tie it up with other research and things that you found across that time of study and analysis, really. So, yeah, I think it is very, very cohesive. I think that's the perfect way to explain it. Were there any challenges and surprises that you encountered during that research that stood out for you?

Victoria Jaye : Surprises? Not really. Except for there were a couple of times that I realized there was something I had forgotten in there. Like, as far as I was watching, for instance, one of the Insidious movies. And I was like, that's not correct when it's telling us, like, oh, this guy, he's starting to look very old and decrepit and it's because he's possessed right now. And I was like, that happens more in oppression narratives. And then I went back physically to look for it, to make sure I was right about that. And it's like, actually, it does show up in possession narratives. So I often need to reassess my own assumptions and I'm so happy I have the data to be able to do that. I always have to question myself and my own conclusions much more than I had thought I would, because there's new information all the time, like witches in particular, especially like pagans. They see demons as very different and I want to look into that more deeply for a different book and organize the phenomena that they describe to see if I can figure out what they're talking about. Because based off everything I understand, me and the pagan community, witch community, they are not talking about the same entity, even though we call it by the same name, because a demon, for instance, the way that I tell people what they are, they want to hurt humans. They would never help a human, not for any reason. And their presences cause harm to humans just by being there. So that's been really interesting. So, yeah, just questioning myself. But also it was very difficult to do this research with my thesis and then with the book because it pressed down on me psychically, because it's such a dark topic.

Michelle: Well, I think the process of book writing just in general is also quite isolating because it's you in your own headspace, you deep in research and so you're kind of naturally in that space anyway. But when it is darker subject material and you are tapping into quite haunting experiences of which you are trying to stay detached from, to have that analytical, critical observer perspective, it is still quite, I think, immersive, however much you try and keep that distance. I think any process of writing, however much you try, you end up immersed in the material to a degree. And this type of material is a bit harder, I think, to not feel something. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because I think it's like any type of research, when looking at certain elements of other areas of the paranormal world in the field, there are things that are a little bit darker. And if that's all you're focusing on, that's kind of going to be with you for a little while until you come to the other end of it. I think.

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, I agree. I'm fascinated by demons, but there is something about the research of them that it becomes difficult because these are real people and these are their stories and their experiences and you just can't help but feel horrible for them. It's happened.

Michelle: Yeah. And again, I think it's really interesting and important to keep saying that and to raise that, because the title, when you're saying modern Demonic Experiences and folklore, it is very much clear that this is about experiences. People are having real experiences and I think it's very easy to forget that. Do you know what I mean? It can be very easy to kind of compartmentalize it and label it as a story. And yes, it is someone's story. That's what makes it an aspect of folklore, because folklore is simply a story that has been recorded over time and we have to be mindful that it's coming from someone's experience. And again, when you're aware of that and the material is a little bit darker, when this is someone who has experienced really negative things, again, that takes its toll. Because there is a person or a family or people behind that account that.

Victoria Jaye : You'Re reading that and the fact that there were things that came up in my own possession. That brought it back a little bit, not too much, but it was a bit of an emotional journey for me at certain points to read that other people had gone through the same thing, or at least similar to mine. Because mine was not demonic, right? I think theirs was a lot worse, but it had similarities that were jarring.

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Michelle: Was it cathartic, though, at the same time that almost hearing and reading other people's accounts when you've gone through something yourself that's very traumatic like that? Again, it must be so isolating. But then to have that opportunity to understand that you weren't alone, was that cathartic at least kind of seeing that whilst you were doing the research that this wasn't something that you and you alone had gone through, if that makes sense?

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, definitely. But at the same time, it also just made me sad that someone else went through this something so horrible. Of course, I'm not the only person, but you almost kind of wish you were because you just feel for that other person that I am so sorry you went through this, because so did I.

Michelle: And again, I think the big motivation then comes for you in doing this research and bringing this book together. You're trying to bring something that might be useful for someone who is experiencing something or for someone who really just has an interest and wants to broaden their understanding on the topic, to move away from maybe the generic understanding of what demonology is, from what they glean from films and TV and from scary books. You want to kind of give them something based on facts that is based on research and accounts, I think is very much why you were motivated to do this, to give something that would really help others want to either find something that's a useful tool or to further their understanding, wasn't it?

Victoria Jaye : Absolutely. Yeah. That's actually a perfect summation of what this book is, which I forgot to do earlier, but it's essentially a guide. It's for the public, it's for paranormal investigators, especially some of these newer ones, who are quick to mistake things as demonic because that's what they've been told is what it is, because it was negative. And it's like, well, negative and evil aren't the same thing, but until you're standing in the presence of evil, you don't really know what it is. So that's like the first thing I tell people. So if you were not standing in the presence of evil and it did not want to torture you and rip you apart and kill you, then it's not a demon. Like right off the bat, all narratives have that one marker. So I want to help. I want to show people that there is much more to this than just what they heard or what they've seen on TV.

Michelle: I mean, in terms of your thesis, it was very much looking at demonic evidence and the patterns that you are seeing. Does the book go further than that? Are you looking at other things? Are you bringing together information on other entities and phenomena and putting that in the book? Or what's the overview in terms of the types of entities that you're exploring in terms of the book this time?

Victoria Jaye : So I did mention Jinn quite a bit and then a little bit on Dibukim, but it was only really to point out that there are other possessing entities. And then in Abrahamic religion, we have the three. So Christianity, Judaism and Islam. And Islam believes heavily in Jinn to the point that they're even mistaken for demons. Overall. They're not exactly the same entity even in Islam, but I've even seen Islamic authors make that mistake. So there's a lot of diffusion there about what a demon is. But this, unfortunately, I couldn't much as I would have liked, because then it would have been a different book. But that's what's going into my next book on Jin and then probably one on oh, it's going to be on UFO abduction experiences and then Keem.

Michelle: Very topical right now, the UFO, isn't it?

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, definitely. I was telling someone about it and they were very excited. But it's like that's. Sorry, that's the third book I'm doing. It actually because of my dad. He loves UFO stuff and he's like, Vic, you need to write a book on this. He also tells me to write one on Bigfoot and Nessie, and it's never going to happen because I'm not really a cryptid person.

Michelle: But I think it's interesting, though, that you already have roadmapped where you want to go next based on where the research has already taken you. And again, I suppose it comes back to what we were saying. This is almost a continuation, isn't it? It's something that you are carrying on with to see what else then you can take it into and kind of replicate or again, apply those same rules of research to other aspects of possessive type entities. But also I do kind of see it as a continuation of well, it is carrying on that same type of research in the sense that you're connecting these experiences together, so that, again, there is a greater understanding of two or three or several different things. That then means it's much easier to look at it, look at something that's being reported and go, well, where does this fit? What is this kind of showing me in terms of what I have here, in terms of reported paranormal experience, phenomena experienced? And again, it's kind of matching those things together, it's pulling those threads together, which, again, I don't think there's been much of. I think if someone's looked at an aspect, it's been an aspect, it's not been in connection with something else, to see where there is overlap. And I think that's where it gets really confusing because there is an awful lot of overlap between experiences. And when you have different terminology, when you have language that's different, used to label something, and some of it gets very overused, it's really hard to know where something fits. And here you're trying to give a model that enables someone to understand where something fits.

Victoria Jaye : Essentially, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I want not just for myself, but for the public, to show that there are threads, there are universal threads of folklore that seem very connected to the point that maybe there's even been classification errors because every place has its own thing. I'm thinking how gin and Irish fairies have a lot in common.

Michelle: Yeah.

Victoria Jaye : So that'll probably be another book as well. I know it's on the list somewhere because I simply want to understand all of these different entities and not just whether they possess. Because that, to me, I'm not personally interested in possession. I included a possession section in this book because I know people are interested in it. They want to know what are the types of things they could expect from a demonic possession or any other type of possession. I'm more interested in experiences. I would even go as far to call myself an experiential folklorist, because that's what I want to know. What does it feel like to be in front of a dibbuk? What does it feel like to hear the sound of fairies in the forest? That sort of thing.

Michelle: But I think you raised something that's really important, which is sometimes it's really important to keep reevaluating where you've come to and where we are at in terms of research, to look at something with fresh eyes again. Because things do move and things do change, and we look at things historically, but do we really look at them historically under these new kind of experiences? Do we compare them and contrast them? Very rarely. They kind of sit in isolation as well. These were recorded in. Folklore historically as fairies. But when you look at these experiences, do they fall under other things? Can you see commonalities? Because again, we have to understand that how we've labeled and categorized, something has changed over time, that narrative has changed over time. And so looking at them with a more modern experience, more modern set of eyes, is really interesting to see if these experiences fit into narratives that today we would call something else. And again, I think it's an important aspect of research to dive a little bit deeper into some of these other things because it can be quite revealing. You can see real overlap with so many of these early accounts of all kinds of phenomena that were recorded in history, but have very, very interesting experiences that overlap geographically, culturally, through different time periods. And there has to be a reason for that that can't be through coincidence. And so, again, I just think it's that constant reevaluation that's necessary to really bring these threads together. Cohesively again, like we've been using that word, it's so important.

Victoria Jaye : I am only probably going to go into modern experiences just for demons. It was partially because I wasn't as interested in antiquity. There was too much to analyze and I wanted to see what was going on now. But with these other things, I may have to go back to antiquity quite a bit with gin. I've already had to, because modern gin experiences are fairly common, but they're not as widely reported, especially in the west. More of a Middle Eastern idea and concept that gin even. Yeah, I think it's really important to include both experiences. But for this book, that's not what I did, because honestly, that research has been covered quite extensively by academia, maybe not bringing it all together. So maybe that's a future endeavor of mine, because I'd like to understand how ancient people understood demons, or maybe not even ancient people like medieval times, how did they understand what was going on? Because folklore tells us a lot about the people, rather, and also what was going on at the time. Because, for instance, I can't remember if we talked about this, but Kim was during a period of time where women had no voice, so if they were possessed by a dibbic, they would have a chance to speak publicly and be heard. And it's been posited that that's why it happened, that they're not a real spirit at all, which is I don't.

Michelle: Think you did mention that in the last podcast, but it's a really interesting aspect to denote, isn't it? Because again, I think it does play a really big part in the types of experiences that people have had and have been reported. I think the time frame is important and there's a really good example right there.

Victoria Jaye : I mean, time period, it informs a lot of folklore, honestly, even what's happening now. But yeah, for this one, it's a little bit limited also because of my own interest. So I wanted to see what demons are doing now.

Michelle: So we kind of touched upon something a little bit earlier, which is that writing this book at times was a little bit unsettling. It's dark material to engage with. It can be intense. How do you recommend readers approach engaging with the material in a way that is productive, that's respectful? It is an area of research, I would say, that garners quite varied opinion. So how would you say someone should approach researching demonology and reading the book in general?

Victoria Jaye : In general, I think you need to remember that these are people and they're stories. And because you don't believe what happened to them, that's not really a good reason to sit there and argue with what they believe happened. They believe it, they remember it. Whether we believe them is a whole different story and we are all allowed to have our own opinions. But there was this podcast I had listened to because somebody had wanted me to evaluate the phenomena she was talking about. And her case definitely sounded demonic. And she had recalled the experience of being called a liar on social media because people had tracked her down from the small amounts of information that she had been given over the podcast and how horrible that was for her to have this experience and then be told that she's lying about it. So when you approach demonology, you need to remember that these are people, that this happened to them, and it is incredibly terrifying. And they want help, especially if you go into demonology wanting to be a demonologist, because generally demonologists go in and they help people and cleanse houses and do all that sort of thing. So that's one thing. And then with this book, as long as you keep it in mind that these are real people with stories, it's very frightening, naturally. But I think I've removed it a little bit into this scientific data set so that it doesn't tell the story as much as it shows you the commonalities in the stories. But to keep in mind that these are real people, these are their stories, and that we should believe, much like folklorists do, that even if we don't believe it was a demon, that something happened.

Michelle: And I think you kind of mentioned something, you bring up something that is really important because I do think skepticism is important. It's a balancing act, isn't it, between being skeptic and remaining open. It's healthy to be open minded. It's healthy to be skeptic about something. It's crucial, I think, to be both of those things. Actually, if you're exploring a particular topic, whatever it is, within the paranormal kind of realm, it's finding the balance between those perspectives when diving into any subject matter. But I think if you're going in with that mindset of wanting to be critical from the offset, being disbelieving and bringing your bias to it, then that doesn't really serve any purpose. It's counterproductive. Even as a skeptic come in with that open mind of, just like you mentioned, read it with that sense of this was someone's experience that they believed in. What can you take from that? What can you learn from that? Is there anything that kind of furthers your understanding in any way? I think if you have that mindset, it's much more helpful, I think, when diving into the topic.

Victoria Jaye : To be honest, I definitely agree, because I straddle being a skeptic while also being open at the same time, because I do have psychic abilities. Whether other people believe me about that is not my problem. But I know that I have this and that it sort of led me on this journey. But at the same time, I tried to be scientific about it, because here's the thing most people don't believe in the supernatural, or if they do, it's in a very limited way. Odly I've never had the question, which I hear a lot of authors get when they write about the supernatural, like, oh, you don't really believe in that, do you? And it's like I've actually never gotten that question. I think it's because of religion, but at the same time, I am always skeptical when somebody comes to me with a story, because you have to be. But I try to listen with an open mind anyway. That, okay, tell me what happened. But they're not always going to get the answer that they want, which is, oh, yeah, that's totally a demon, because I would never tell somebody that unless I thought it was true. A lot of people think demons are everywhere, and they're not.

Michelle: And the book itself isn't trying to convince anybody of a particular narrative itself. It is simply showing the evidence that you've come across through your research of what patterns you've observed, what things you've observed across many different accounts. And so therefore, then you've got data as someone who is diving into that material to see what that then provides for you, what it gives you. Does it further your understanding? Do you see anything yourself? Does it help you in any way? It's not trying to make you believe in something. It's not trying to change your mind in something. It is simply showing the evidence that you've come across through your research, through analyzing these accounts, these stories, these experiences, what patterns are you observing? It's therefore then up to whatever it is that someone is going into and reading the book for them to use in terms of what purpose it serves them, I think. And essentially, I think that is why it's such an important guide, because it's not trying to convert anybody. It's not trying to change anybody's mind. It's simply a tool to further understanding for someone who's coming at it for a particular reason. A particular purpose.

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, exactly. I think of it as being a guide to help people understand the way that demonic phenomena behaves. That demons aren't as mysterious as they'd like to pretend to be. That there is all of this evidence everywhere. That they behave in a certain manner to do a little research of your own and check off, because it's very literally meant to be written on. Now, people with Kindle, obviously it's not quite the same thing, but I think it'll still have much of the same effect because you can highlight things, right, but you can check off very literally like, oh, this happened to me. Oh my gosh, so did this too. So that people can further their own understanding, but also not make the mistake of calling something a demon when it's something else. Because that's a huge problem we have right now within the paranormal, especially with YouTubers and new people coming into the field, they don't have any kind of basis for their demon knowledge. They're sort of like gleaning it from sources that maybe they shouldn't have been reading in the first place.

Michelle: So when is the book due out? When can people expect to be able to find and get their hands on a copy of the book?

Victoria Jaye : So, officially it'll be out on Halloween, but it looks like on Kindle. If you buy it on Amazon on Kindle, it will be out on the 27th. So a few days early.

Michelle: Brilliant. Obviously, having been on the podcast before, all of your details are up on the website so that people can easily find you, keep abreast of what you're doing, future endeavors. I mean, you've mentioned already plans for other projects when it comes to your writing. So if people are really excited to kind of follow up on some of those and keep aware of what's happening and where you are on those projects, obviously they'll easily be able to find you on the website and on the podcast, description notes and so on that go out with the episode. But yeah, I think it's a really interesting bit of research that you've done that, like I said, I think is really worth taking a look at to further everybody's understanding. And I think it's useful, and I think I said this on the podcast before, I think it's useful to have this information, whether you are really interested in diving into demonology research or not, if you are on the periphery of that in some aspects because you have an aspect of the paranormal that you're interested in. I do think it is important to keep abreast of these different areas to understand how they play into each other, if that makes sense. Because again, there is overlap and I think it's healthy to have a better understanding maybe of other things that are happening within the world of parapsychology. So, yeah, I think it's a really amazing research book that you've pulled together, a guide that you've pulled together that I can see having so many uses for different people coming at it from a different position and a different need, if that makes sense.

Victoria Jaye : I really hope so. I hope it'll be useful to anybody who really picks it up because it's meant to help. It's meant to help and clear up confusion and set it up so that if you were really interested in this, here's more on this subject that maybe hasn't really been done before. I always feel super big headed when I say that, but unfortunately, it is true. I could not find any kind of work where it was all pulled together. Because when I was reading, for instance, one of Andrea Perron's books, house of Darkness, House of Light, I was just kind of like, okay, and then what happened? And then going through the story. But the story wasn't as interesting to me as what she was reporting. So I guess sort of then, this idea had started to grow, even though I was nowhere near writing it or researching it.

Michelle: When you spot a need yourself, when you realize there's something missing, it's strange how those moments can come to you when you realize there's something that you wish there was. Yeah. And then to kind of have the capacity and the time and the energy to actually dedicate doing it. Because, as I've mentioned, it's not easy to do that. It's an awful lot of work to do the kind of thing that you're doing. So it's taking away a headache for anybody else, I think. And, yeah, you've done the hard work. Now people can enjoy it.

Victoria Jaye : Yeah, exactly. But other people have done the work, I think, for me as well, laying out these stories. So it works for me because I love doing this, honestly.

Michelle: I just think it's so interesting and such a brilliant project. And I think in bringing kind of the idea of it together and having people kind of finish with the podcast, it's just really important to be aware. This is a guide for you to use to further your understanding, to apply to what, you know, might change your concept of demonology and what demons are. It may enhance it. It's there as a guide. It's something that I think you'll find useful. And, yeah, I can't wait for it to come out, really, to see the full thing.

Victoria Jaye : I'm in the middle of edits right now. I should have them done by the end of September. Just getting it all polished up for all of you guys.

Michelle: Well, I appreciate you coming on tonight then, to chat about it and yeah, in preparation for it going out and being there on Halloween. So thank you so much for your time, Victoria, because I know you're busy and I know, again, it's a lot of work. And even that editing process is not easy. It's not easy going back in and going over everything again and again and again. Try and polish up and make sure it's perfect. So yeah. I appreciate you coming and sharing more about the book, really, and giving it that kind of closer attention that we didn't look at in the podcast before.

Victoria Jaye : I appreciate you having me and letting me rattle on about all the intricacies of my research. So thanks for having me, and I.

Michelle: Will say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody.