The Bothell Hell House: A Terrifying Poltergeist Haunting With Keith Linder

Michelle : Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. First of all, thank you for taking a listen to this episode.

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Michelle : And now let's get started by introducing.

Michelle: Today'S podcast or guest.

Michelle : In the quiet suburbs near Seattle in the year 2012, keith Linda and his girlfriend Tina embarked on a new chapter of their lives. A picturesque home in Bothel, Washington, promised a dreamy life. Keith, a software engineer working for tech giant Microsoft, was living the life of his dreams, surrounded by the wonders of the Pacific Northwest. Little did they know their idyllic new beginning was about to be turned upside down. Keith and Tina's story unfolds in a house that seems ordinary at first. Yet as they settled into their new home, everyday objects began vanishing without explanation. Keys, silverware all gone. Innocent enough, right? But sometimes what starts as a whisper can escalate into a cacophony of haunting echoes. As they brushed off these OD occurrences, an evening of watching television revealed something much more sinister. A potted plant, heavy and ornate, lifted itself from its place, defying the laws of nature. They tried to rationalize, to find a logical explanation. But the threads of normality were unraveling. Soon, their nights were shattered by thunderous bangs originating from the attic above. The source of these ear spitting noises was elusive, defying any attempt to trace it back to its origin. Was it a spirit trapped, yearning to be heard? Or something more malevolent, clawing at the fabric of reality? Keith and Tina reached out to non denominational ministers, hoping a blessing could dispel the mounting unease. And for a brief moment, the house fell silent. But this respite was short lived. A phantom had merely stepped back, regrouping its malevolent energy for a more harrowing display. A housewarming party was meant to celebrate their new life. Yet guests experienced icy touches, spectral hands brushing against them. The air grew thick with another worldly presence, making the celebration feel more like a gathering of restless souls. Fear clung to the air, and reality gave way to the inescapable truth. An entity or entities had claimed their home as its own. Determined to confront this supernatural terror, keith sought help from paranormal experts. As the days turned to years, the assaults grew more relentless. Doors slammed shut, spontaneous fires erupted, and Keith himself was thrown down the stairs, his body bearing the scars of a malevolent force. As their home spiraled into chaos, keith recorded, documented, and searched for answers. Joining me today is Keith Linder, a professional in the It field whose journey from the tech giants of the world to a battlefield of spectral forces is nothing short of astonishing. With a love for fishing, sports, and Sci-Fi, keith never imagined he'd become a participant in a story that defies the very laws of nature. Keith shares his experiences, giving a palpable account of some of the events, as well as joining in discussions around the paranormal. Can science and research hold the answers to the inexplicable? Will Keith's determination bring new light to the theories around poltergeist hauntings? Without further ado, prepare to immerse yourself in an account that defies reason and challenges our understanding of reality as we delve into the realm of the paranormal and the haunting story of the bothel. House.

Michelle: Hi, Keith. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Keith Linder : Hi, Michelle. Thanks for having me.

Michelle: Do you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?

Keith Linder : First thing? I live in the United States in Seattle, Washington. I'm an It project manager, had been for quite some time in May of 2012, moved into a home in the suburbs, single dwelling unit outside of Seattle that was later determined to be poltergeist infested. But my background is technology. I've worked for companies like Microsoft, Dell Computer, verizon Telecommunications. So it was a new ordeal for me and my ex girlfriend Tina.

Michelle: And I think this is why it's partly why it's such an interesting case, because you came into this completely new to the world of the paranormal. It's not as if it was something that you were particularly engaged with. And so the phenomena that you were experiencing was totally out of the world that you were normally very comfortable in. And in that sense, we've got really interesting documentation from the perspective of somebody who hadn't really come across any of this before, didn't know what it meant, didn't know what some of the things that you're experiencing were other hallmarks of. And so it is almost a study and a documentation step by step, of your experiences from that perspective of, this is what I was going through, this is what my girlfriend and I were going through at the time. And we don't know much in terms of recordings like that where you get to see something and unfold and the experiences that you had. So it's a really interesting case study, I think, for that alone.

Keith Linder : Yeah. Michelle so you're right. Me and my girlfriend at the time, we had no knowledge, interest, curiosity, or passions about the paranormal. The only thing I knew about the paranormal was maybe a scary movie here and there during Halloween months or Ghost sort of every now and then. But I guess being new to it and being sort of thrown in, if you will, might in itself explain why us? Because I always ask the question, why me? And the answer I get back in my head is, why not you? It seemed like we were ripe for the picking, talking from the Portuguese perspective because we had activity on day one of trying to move into the home. That's unusual in other Portuguese cases. You're right. And the only thing I could fall back on is two things my upbringing as a child, as my parents molded me, and then my career. I'm an It professional, so one of the things I do day to day is documentation and the phenomena what we or myself was witnessing. Nobody told me to document. It just felt like that was the right thing to do. It's like, okay, I could tell this story of my couch and furniture levitating, but I sort of need to document the day and time of when it levitated, what did levitate, what noise did we hear? And try to capture that with some of the electronic equipment that we now have available as a society. So I just fell back on my It technical background, not knowing that I was sort of making things worse. As we gradually start living in the house of the more attention you give it, the more curiosity. It's like that old proverb, when you stare into the abyss, the abyss also stares back into you. And if you're familiar with the story, that's our story in a nutshell, especially with me in the activity. So, yeah, I want people to know we did not play with any Ouija boards. We were not paranormal enthusiasts. I'd never heard of a paranormal TV show or new friends of that matter either. And when I first heard the term poetry, guys, years later, we just called everything a ghost, but we was calling it incorrectly. And years later, I'm like, oh, this is the resemblance of a poltergeist. And I'm like, well, I remember that vaguely in the 80s in a movie that came out. And from what I remember in that movie, because I never saw all of it, the house occupants in that movie were going through pure hell. And then I like, AHA, yeah, that's what we're going through. Yeah, okay. Poltergeist. Okay, well, how do you get rid of it? And that's where the battle and the interesting thing started taking place of how do you lessen or get rid of it. But we're a long way from that.

Michelle: So do you want to just take us back to the beginning of the account, really? I mean, for anybody who is unfamiliar or needs refreshing, take us through that kind of timeline of some of the key things that happened between 2012 when you moved in to when you moved out in 2016, and maybe some of the history of the site that you know of that you think might be quite relevant.

Keith Linder : Yeah, and like I say, this story sort of like other Portuguese stories. Sounds a little bit cliche, but it's true. We moved into this home, me and my girlfriend, May 1 of 2012. We have found the house on Craigslist, I think two months, two and a half months before. And it's a single dwelling home. It's a two story home in the suburbs of Seattle, Washington. The neighborhood. And the home was built in 2005, so it had been lived in with about five families before us. And, yeah, it was a nice ring day, beautiful day. When we went to go get the keys to the home, we'renters matter of fact, we're not buying, we're renters. And we went to sign the leasing papers and shook hands with the homeowner. He gave us a bottle of wine, said, congratulations, welcome to your new home. We're excited. Well, we have no kids, no pets. And as soon as he left, me and just me and Tina there, we're just talking. We're sitting down in the living room. This is the room closest to the front door. And we're just talking, being married, talking about what we're going to do with the house and how excited we are. And in the middle of our talking, we heard a kid cough. And I say kid cough versus a regular adult cough, because while we were talking, we both looked at each other as soon as we heard it, and we asked each other the same question was, was that a kid cough? And it sounded like it came from upstairs. And we looked around. We didn't get up or go walking around looking for whatever the noise was, but it was very interesting. It was very loud, and the windows are closed. Once again, we have no children. We have no kids, no pets. And after five minutes of talking about, okay, that's weird, that had to have come from outside. But once again, having no familiarity with the paranormal and just being who we were, we just shrugged it off like any normal human being with maybe we heard that wrong. Whatever. Okay, we love this house. Fast forward to now. We're living in the house just two weeks later, or a month later, we started to notice items missing, like my extra set of car keys. These are my spare set or car fob that I never used, but I kept in a glove box in my upstairs office closet, and I noticed it was missing. And I remember distinctively carrying it over from my old residence. And Tina never knew these existed because she never saw them. And at the same time, Tina started noticing her jewelry. Things that she wears are missing. And she's asking me, hey, Keith, have you seen my jury? Have you seen my necklace, my bracelet? Or one earring is missing? And I'm like, no. And I don't keep tabs on her jewelry collection either. But the thing we both asked each other questions on specifically was the silverware, the kitchen utensils, and that started coming up missing, because you go into your kitchen, you prepare supper, you eat, you grab a fork or knife. And I found myself, within weeks or months of living in the home, always searching for what I'm like, okay, why am I always having to search for a knife or fork? There's only two people here. And it seems like the drawer that we keep, the knives and forks and spoons and all that seems to be depleting. So I asked him, hey, can I use and she's like, no, I was about to ask you the same thing. And we're like, okay, so that's weird, but nobody's talking ghost. And then the thing that really got peculiar was waking up in the morning and discovering, as we come downstairs to make coffee and go to work, kid toys. Now, these kid toys that we're finding are on the staircase in our direct path, easily visible. They're on the kitchen counter kitchen table. And once again, we have no kids. These are out in the open. These are not things we're finding behind large appliances that makes you think, oh, this is left over from the neighbor or from the previous tenants. So that was interesting. And then coming downstairs similar mornings and seeing all our kitchen cabinet doors wide open. I mean, just all of them wide open. Nothing in the cabinets of the cupboards are rearranged. They're neatly like we left them, but every door is open. And that made me proactively install a home security monitoring system, because I had told Tina and she told me, are we being pranked? Is this a bad joke? Is this somebody coming into the home while we're sleeping and doing all this stuff, leaving kid toys and opened up? Who does that? I mean, that's kind of home invasion, home intrusion, probably the worst prank ever. But how do they do it? Avoiding detection from us. So the only way to solve that problem was to install a home security system, which I did. Once again, not even close to talking about ghosts or anything, because that seemed like the logical next step. Well, that did not lessen items missing. That did not lessen items being found that neither of us owned, that did not lessen waking up and finding kitchen cabinet doors open, which then I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do. The night one night we were watching television, me and Tina. Tina has this four foot tall plant by the television Entertainment center. While we're watching television, the plant darts up into the air and does a spin, 360 degree spin, and falls to the ground in our direction in front of us. You couldn't miss it. And we both saw it at the same time. And I'm glad we did, because I let the tennis look at me and we like, did that just happen? A plant moved on its own. Not only that, it rose up in the air on its own. And fell over in our direction. So then we not running out of the house. Like someone instinctively think that might have been no smart thing to do. We walked toward the plant and started looking for a remote control device. Once again, not thinking ghost or paranormal because we're new at this. We thought we were being pranked. And we thought, okay, this is where somebody's going to come out of a closet and somebody's going to say, haha. We had a joke on you and Tina. Welcome to the house. Here's a trip to Hawaii for being good sports about it. No, the plant was just a plant. Then I looked at Tina, she looked at me and I said, I think we have a ghost, and how do we determine that? So we went to my office and looked on the Internet and just asked the question, how can you tell if your house is haunted? It seemed like a logical next step. And the websites that we were finding, paranormal websites now getting education, said, these are the five to ten things you can do to tell if your house is haunted. And we already experienced five or six or seven of them. Missing objects. Objects appearing out of nowhere, phantom footsteps, waking up and finding your kitchen cabinet doors open. A few websites even had a kid cough. Kid cough. But we're like, I think we had a child. Go. So fast forward the high level things this case is known for through the four years of our ordeal. We could talk about specifically, you could ask me. Started on May 1 of 2012, and from there on, you would have the missing of objects, which I could call teleportation or asporting or importing of objects. Me witnessing shadowy figures, I drawed some and put them online of what I saw with my naked eyes that walked by my office door multiple times. Burning Bibles. One Bible we saw on fire. One Bible caught fire. Woke us up after being missing or gone missing for a year and a half. A Bible. Two other Bibles were found severely scorched or burned beyond recognition. Once again, photos and whatnot video online. The apparition. The female apparition that I refer to as the Gray Lady. Why? Because she was gray when I saw her in summer of 2012. And then I referred to her as the White Lady apparition. I just call it ghost, but I'm later learned the terminology is apparition. I saw her in the summer fall of 2014, but now she's all white. Now. Both Gray Lady and White Lady are not translucent. They're not see through. They were what you would call full bodied, like you and me, except they're all gray or one color. They're not gray. She was white the first time she interacted with me. She turned off my office light while I was in the room. She turned it off manually and took off running. I saw that with my naked eye. This is summer 2012. The other things are, of course, the objects being thrown small, medium, large. And the wall writings, numerous, numerous wall writings in my office of upside down crosses, of six, six, six of other symbols we still today don't know what it means of the die. KL. My name is Keith Linder and there were times where the poltergeist wrote in my office, very specifically the words die in my initials KL. It wrote that in my office several times. It wrote that in my car several times, and it wrote it on the house lawn several times. And the pictures that you see in my office of the wall writings, some were written with sage ash. Some were written in a black chalk like substance. We still don't know what is today. Others were written with a black oily like, acrylic like substance that we later determined resembled bone black. We could talk about that which is incinerated buffalo or bison bone. And the symbol that pretty much got everybody scratching their head is the upside down man symbol, native American symbols. And then of course, last but not least, in addition to that, were the spontaneous fires. I'm not talking about the Bibles anymore. I'm talking about other objects in the home that just spontaneously caught fire, including the clothes that I'm wearing while I'm wearing them.

Michelle: It's such a detailed, comprehensive list of things that you write about. And one of the things that I really would like to kind of put across because I think something that you have done in your book Nightside of Physics is really hammer home. Some of the things that I personally think when it comes to paranormal investigating in general and research, whether it's into poltergeist cases or into just regular type hauntings, other paranormal experiences and encounters phenomena, is that we've almost got to this point where we research, we investigate, and we keep repeating the same style and type of questions, investigations, experimentation. We keep replicating and rehashing the same theories. But what we're doing not so much of is actually adding to those hypotheses that are already there. And so what we have is very few challenges to concepts, very few extensions or further thoughts being added to the discussion that's been there. And you ask yourself in that book, if we think about poltergeist cases just alone, what can we add to that discussion that we didn't know 40 years ago, 50 years ago kind of thing? And that is so true and it's something so missing because when we think about these cases, when we add a new case, when we add a new experience, we're adding something new in terms of what might be experienced by those involved, some of the phenomena that's unique or that fits a certain type of hallmark pattern. And I think there is a real problem whereby certain things get put out there and marginalized and categorized as well, this type of experience is only recognized when you see these things. And that's so misrepresenting what some of the experiences and the phenomena are. And just thinking about your case, when we think about some of those things that are categorized as poltergeist, where you don't have a young teenage girl, there isn't anything particularly troublesome happening, anything traumatic or anything stressful. You don't have phenomena that's being experienced over a very short period of time that then ends. This is something that was sustained over a much longer period of time. And although you had gaps where the phenomena ceased, it did start up again. That's unique. And then there are other aspects that you don't necessarily see in every single example. And I think we need to start challenging what we think we know and starting to widen the questions and the investigations and the research we're doing to try and answer some of the things that we don't know. And like I said, I think you tackle that so wonderfully in the book because I think when we start pigeonholing experiences, we're doing a real disservice to the types of phenomena and experiences that people are having.

Keith Linder : Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because one of the silver linings, if there is to be one from this case in me and Tina's ordeal is, and this is a strength, not a weakness, is me and Tina were not myself specifically, were not beholding to any existing theories surrounding poltergeist activity. Okay? As well as other people who've experienced poltergeist activity. Most people who experience poltergeist activity have front row seats to the phenomena. It's people who come in, who give it their own interpretation, in my opinion, which is most of the time incorrect, and make the house occupant dumb down or walk back some of their claims. And I, for one, put all my claims out there and will not walk back any of them. And the paranormal community as a whole, as a whole, cherry picks the phenomena that they want to match their existing theory. Once again, let's talk about the adolescent teenager. Well, our case runs smack head into that, right? We don't have any adolescents, let alone teenagers in the home. There's this other one of well, there's the focal person. The activity surrounds one person and not the other or the female. If we're not talking about adolescent teenager, then we're talking about female. Well, I can show you in the Balthel Hill House, the book one, where the activity sometimes mainly focused around both of us, sometimes around Tina and sometimes around me. But there's a caveat or an asterisk behind all that. And that being there were times we had activity in the home at the Baffle house when neither one of us are home, when I'm getting email alerts, motion detected, sound detected. And I'm 20 miles away from my house. I'm in work downtown Seattle, and I log in to my home because I can remote in via camera, and I can see the aftermath of the activity. Then the paranormal community needs to reevaluate existing theories because, whoa, wait a minute. Etha Tina are not even in the home and the house is active. I know there are cases like that exist, but they're very far, few in between. I can even take it a step further and say where I have been traveling and had activity follow me. 500, 800 miles, 1000 miles, 3000 miles, take your pick. And I've been attacked in my hotel room while at the same time, same time Tina's being attacked while still being in the hole while I'm gone. So the paranormal community as a whole needs to come to terms with that. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. You got two activities, both poltergeist in nature, happening in multiple time zones here. And then he's got also claims of his friends, my friends, being attacked in their homes after trekking through the Baffle house. So we got three, four, possibly five locations now that are documenting poltergeist activity. And I try to bring that to everybody's attention because it needs to be talked about in the current theory. Reevaluated, remeasured. And yeah, it has not been sort of semi fallen on deaf ears because these old theories, like you said, are pretty much copy paste, copy paste. Everybody's quoting one another, everybody's looking at old data, data that was born out in the we've learned so much. I'm talking from a technology standpoint. We learned so much since then. Houses today are different than the houses in the 18 hundreds, 17 hundreds, 15 hundreds, 19 hundreds. Look at all the things we have in our home now. Look at all the smart devices, the electricity, the internet, the WiFi, the Bluetooth, the smart refrigerator, the smart toaster, the smartphone, the smart dishwasher, the smart microwave, alexa, Siri, all these things that portrait guests is just toys. If I'm the Portuguese, I'm excited now about the toys homes have at their disposal now. And that's what makes my case a little bit interesting, because I was trying to use today's technology to capture the phenomena. And as you read, I don't know if you've seen the documentary, the entities, I'll call them entities, found some of the electronic gadgets very interesting, as if to suggest it was their first time seeing it, too. There's a video by Steve Mirror in this documentary, him and Don Phillips documentary. That's a free on YouTube, totally free. If I can watch this hour, 30 minutes long, where they're setting up motion cameras and voice detection devices in the hallway, unbeknownst to them at the review later. They review later their footage as they're trying to set up monitoring equipment to capture phenomena like most paranormal teams do. They're being monitored and the voices are monitoring them, saying, and I'm paraphrasing, but people can listen for themselves. They're like, it's a camera, it's a camera. What are they doing? Look at that. What are that. Look at that cord, those plugged in. Hey, take that. There's a voice saying take that. And that's clear as day to the person who hears them. And the enunciation, the EVP, I think it's called class A. Class b is a conversation between two unknown voices. You can easily distinguish Steve and Don's voice, but there's two unaccounted for unknown voices talking underneath them about the equipment that both men are setting up. And that's just profound in my opinion. Whatever it's worth, in my opinion, that should leap the paranormal research by leaps and bounds. Just that EVP alone, because it suggests so much that I've always hear paranormal teams say when they come into our house, is battery malfunction? Why is there a battery drainage happening? Why does the energy get sucked out of a device that's pertinent to the investigation? Why is there equipment malfunction was working fine before they came here, and now it's not working well, that transcend all continent. I've seen that story told on every continent on the planet for paranormal teams throughout the ages about the equipment malfunction and battery drainage. And now you have a voice saying something similar to, hey, take that. Yeah, okay. It's only power like that because it's plugged into the wall. You have the voice that match the phenomena that's been recorded by paranormal teams for quite some time. So you're right that's the whole book, third book was about was poltergeist night side of physics was to have that conversation. And I hope the paranormal community does have that conversation because there's a lot of there.

Michelle: There is a lot there, but that's because there were so many different types of experiences, and each one of them are very unique and really quite profound. And in some cases they are phenomena that you see in a very small number of poltergeist cases. In others, you see them across poltergeist cases. I mean, again, it just highlights that no one thing is kind of representative of everything. And again, I think that speaks to we need to stop categorizing something as well. You see this, this, and this, and it's because of this, because it's totally dumbing down the subject matter, I think. And it's totally putting a ceiling on the types of conversations. And if we're really being very honest, if poltergeist hauntings were simply the product of a hormonal teenager in a household or something traumatic, I think every single house on the planet would have poltergeist activity. We don't. And so therefore it defies logic. It doesn't make sense as that's the only rational explanation as to why, like you said, it's because someone's gone in, they've seen something, and they've interpreted it one way, and it's therefore stuck. And then what's really sad is when other cases come in that defy that it gets pushed to the background or it gets dismissed or it gets reported as doesn't fit the mold. And instead what we're not doing is saying, okay. Here are other examples. Should we be redefining what we think is happening in these types of cases? Should we be adding? And that, to me, is what research is about. We don't ever stop learning by simply say, well, we've got everything we need to know here. Let's now stop, we have more cases. So therefore, we should be looking at that and adding that to the bulk to the database of what we have already.

Keith Linder : You're right. New data is new data for the simple reason it can disprove or support existing theories. If the new data supports existing theories, then, hey, all right, everybody clap their hand. That's good. That's another feather and the cap for that theory. If the data doesn't support the existing theory, then we should all be clapping again, because we can now put that theory aside and start all over. Okay, all right, we got new data. It takes away from the existing theory. Okay, now we're back where we started from, and that's typically how science works. We always talk about one of the greatest minds of all time, albert Einstein theory of relativity, the special theory of relativity. He came arms folded to quantum mechanics. He didn't really understand or like it and reluctant to it, but at the end, he finally acquiesced. He finally said, hey, you know what? Okay, all right, yeah, maybe God does play dice and hides it okay? And that's what the prayer roma can be doing with new data coming in like the Bossel house. And there's other cases. I found them and I put them in my third book. But these are not the famous cases. One of the things that upset Tina a lot and me, but specifically Tina, was when paranormal researchers come to the house, they come to the house, they got their gadgets to clipboard and all that, and they just all want to hover around her. Everybody wants to hover around Tina. The office upstairs, the office where primarily majority of that activity happened, poster caught fire, computer remarks caught fire, all that stuff. Go up there and knock yourselves out. Spend a night if you want to bring a sleeping bag, the house is yours. But everybody wants to hover around Tina and poke at her and ask her questions. It took me a while, and I didn't know why. I'm like, what's this over fascination with Tina? And I found that when I started understanding Portuguese, and this whole teenager, female, adolescent teenager, you know, Tina's not a teenager. But the second bullet point to that is the female. They always like, well, the female and all this and this and that, and we're like, okay, you got all this activity on the other wing of the house, and you're not focusing on that. We've just told you we've had activity when we're not home or present. And then yeah, and then from maybe November 2014 till now, present day, the activities now hover, focusing around me. Tina moved out of the Baffle house, 2015. I moved out May of 2016. I still occasionally, occasionally, as recent as last night, this morning, experience phenomena. And there's that. Then let's rewind back a little bit and let's talk about the previous tenants in my home, rhonda and her family who lived in their home in 2008, 2009. Rhonda had three kids, and they had similar activity as well. And when I called Rhonda the summer of 2014, I called I mean, chatted on Facebook. Her son, now, he was a very young child in the Baffle house, now several years removed. They lived in Yakima, Washington, which is about 500 miles plus or minus East Washington. And she told me, without me even mentioning it, because I had not confided it to her what we were all experiencing, because I didn't want to dilute what she was telling me or influence it. Her son, she said, saw shadowy figures in the house where we lived in upstairs. His room was my office. Might explain the kid cough because he was very sick at the time. He developed meningitis. But she also said he still sees shadowy figures to this day. And this is 2012. This is four years after moving out the house. Now, she doesn't volunteer that information like I don't volunteer that information. If I met you tomorrow or today, I'm going to say, hey, Michelle, I still see shadowy fingers if you ask me. Hey, can, you been out of that box of house since 2016, right, Michelle? Occasionally. Occasionally, I still see shadowy fingers like you do. Yeah. Never subsided. And look at me. It's 2023. I moved out in 2016. So these are the data I'm talking about that should be either disproving a current theory and help creating a new theory or supporting theories that I believe have been ignored. And my theory that I believe has been ignored is, I believe, poltergeist, or what I call, for lack of a better term, third party, meaning they are an independent, sentient entity. And there's more than one. There's more than one. They work in unison. There's a cohesion, there's a unison, if you will, tandem with each other. We could talk about being in two places at the same time, which will know me being attacked over here, tina being attacked while still in the home. Or we can talk about two places at one time. Me still seeing shallowy figures, and some of my friends today seeing shallowy figures after they leave my presence, go back to their own respective homes, or Rhonda's son, who was still seeing shallowy figures when I contacted and reached out to Rhonda. So those are the conversations I think we should all be having, because once we start having them and I know the proof of concept is true because I get emails all the time from people all over the world who say, yeah, man, that happened to me. But I don't tell anybody because they think I'm crazy or they think it's me, or they want to focus on me. And yeah, that had to happen to me, too, or my friend or my friend or friend of friend has had that. And I wish it would be talked more from a high level in the existing paranormal organization community, like I said, because I think it helps.

Michelle: Well, I think there is this propensity to try and categorize it as one simple thing and have it in a neat box. And I just don't think a lot of what we experience and we see actually works like that. And my own experience of 30 East Drive, which is a well known poltergeist case, is one that really, again, defies a lot of the common thoughts of what a poltergeist haunting looks like and echoes what you just said. Of there's something else. I genuinely think it's a location that has hauntings that you might expect in typical kind of ghost haunting experiences. And then there is this something else that is very intellectual, that is mischievous, that is quite detailed in what it's doing in order to try and get your attention. And like you mentioned, is not specific to that location. There are hundreds and hundreds of examples where people who have been there have experienced things then in their own home, where things have been moved and taken to their home, seeing things moved in East Drive, and then it's somehow ending up in their own home. And you can't dismiss things like that. We cannot dismiss things like that. And my personal perspective is that is one thing attracting the other, possibly. I firmly believe that a lot of the paranormal experiences are based on energy. You mentioned electricity, the devices we have being something that kind of entities can draw from. I firmly believe that. And so it makes sense that, again, spiritual energy can also attract other types of energy. And that's why you can experience different levels and layers of paranormal phenomena. And it's about breaking those down and really examining them as unique experiences, which I think, again, we don't do enough of.

Keith Linder : Yeah, one thing I can tell you about the Baffle house, going back to maybe some of the root cause of the activity is what we found out through research. And it took some time to learn this, and we're still learning this. Steve Merritt, Don Phillips they believe some of the phenomena, if not all, is related to the they call the landlock phenomena. And how we able to determine that or give rise to that were two things, was the wall writings in my office gave hint because some of the wall writing was Native American related. And yeah, that seems cliche to some. I'll blame it on the Native Americans. But we didn't ask it to draw Native Americans. It did on its own. And I was always curious as to why an upside down man, what was that name, the symbol they drew, and upon research and this is not Keith's research. This is online. The symbol means a man has died or is about to die. Specifically, native Americans draw the upside down man only to reference if a man has died of disease, mainly smallpox. Okay. And I was able to research, spend many hours in the microfilm room of the county Washington, and discovered that there was a major outbreak of smallpox throughout what we call the pacific northwest, which is mainly Washington and Oregon and Northern California. And to bring the point even more closer to home was, yes, there was a smallpox outbreak that included the city of botham to where a lot of native Americans lost their lives in the mid 18 hundreds due to smallpox outbreak. The vaccine was purposely given to them last versus given to the settlers. Okay. And a lot of the native Americans who perished this is a cold, harsh winter were disburied in mass graves. Now, nobody knows where those mass graves are except to say the city of bothel. Now, of course, bothel Washington in the 18 hundreds was significantly smaller than it was today. And when paranormal teams start pulling up to our driveway, they got their paranormal title or name of their paranormal group on their shirt or back van. When TV shows start coming up to the home, when the news start coming up to the home, neighbors start coming out of their homes, and they start admitting, hey, Keith. Hey, Tina. We see these ghost fans point up to your home and two homes specifically to the left of the bottle house or to the right of the bottle house. Admitted to us volunteers, we didn't ask them. They just admitted after seeing they came out of their comfort zone when they saw the vans pull up, like, yeah, we sometimes have weird stuff happening in our home, too, and, oh, weird stuff like that. Our pets or dogs and cats, they don't go into certain rooms of the house. They purposely avoid going to the rooms that are close to your house. Me and my wife or husband and wife husband and wife had a conversation about why our pets don't go to these rooms, and we never knew know it's not something you would know why automatically, but now seeing that your house, keith, what's going on here? And I would tell them, okay, that's interesting. Okay, fast forward to when I moved out of the both of home. I still have a friend in the neighborhood who occasionally reaches out to me. He lives about a block over from the both of home, and he pings me on Facebook one day and said, hey, man, I'm leaving work because my motion detection devices are going off at home. Comcast has sent me an email saying, motion detected. The Burnham Arm is going. I got to go home and attend to it. So he gets home, and then he said, well, I got home since I was slow responding. The police were there when I got it, and they want to make sure everything was all right because if you don't respond quick enough, it goes to the local police department about a burglary. So they respond. That's how the count is set up. So he sees police officer, and he's like, hey, I'm sorry. Yeah, my alarm went off. And the police officer asked him, hey, are you okay? Everything good. It was brought in at about 02:00 p.m. During the day. He's like, yeah, everything's okay. And then he said, it must have been a false alarm. And then the police officer volunteered and said, you know what? We get a lot I paraphrase, but I'm quoting. We only get these type of false alarms. Talking about the home security system, what we respond to from this neighborhood. This is the only neighborhood in the whole city of bothel where we get these false positives false alarms. My friend knowing his home and knowing my home a few houses away, like, oh, really? Yeah. What do you mean, oh, yeah? All the time we respond to these calls, and then we get to the home, and there's nothing. But there's no burglary, obviously, but only in this neighborhood. In that neighborhood, the Boston neighborhood where I live and where my friend lives, it's about, give or take, 300 to 400, maybe 600 houses in a meeting area, all built within 2005 time frame. So they're going to be set up similarly electronically. As far as the home security minor system, but that's not even 1% of the neighborhoods of both, okay? Both Google and See, the population of both, even though that's not even close. But for him to go out of his way, talk about the police officers, to say, this neighborhood has all these fake alarms going off, and we respond to them and there's nothing, and then I remember that my home the same thing, and then I'm a friend, so, yeah, it can be something related to the land. And Steve Merrill said it great in his documentary when he said there's always going to be low level activity in Keith Linda's home, whether he lives in it or not. Neighbors or house occupants might not just notice it. I mean, how many times have we many, you, me, and others have lost something or misplaced something, and then we find it over here, and we're like, how did I get over here? And then we just shrug it off. How many times we leave and come back when the light was on, when we left and come back it's off. We don't think ghosts, like, maintaina we didn't think ghosts early on. If it just stays at that level, you just shrug it off. I forgot who wrote the book called just One of Those things. The mind just shrugs it off, and there's no repercussions to that. Maybe that's a safety mechanism where you go a step beyond that safety mechanism like I did, probably was investigated. Like, why are my lights always off when I come back in a room? And as you know, what did I do? I went and bought cameras. I started setting up tripods and motion detection and cameras to watch the cameras. And they tried to tell me to stop and decease with the cameras. And they would unplug one and I would plug it back in. And then they would take the SD card, and I would go buy another SD card, and then they would turn the camera and face it toward the wall, which Stephen mer and Stephen dong witnessed themselves when they lived in the home with their camera. Something was there purposely trying to say, hey, stop. Don't do it know this is a warning. You get two after the third one, we got to take it up a notch. And if you watch my videos, I'll talk about all my videos on YouTube channel go from the very beginning to now, it's a video diary of what I just described of new couple in the home. Look at the house. It's so pristine, it's so new. Look at it. And then you see this camera in the hallway trying to capture the lights going off and on. And then weeks and months later, you see another camera in the hallway, another camera in the bedroom. AHA, option being thrown, loud banging. Then you start seeing dents in the wall. AHA, wall writings, wall writings over here they seek burnt marks. AHA, fire. So you start seeing the gradual from a video diary point of view of how the activity escalated over a four year period to the point even mushrooming outside of the house.

Michelle: I think that kind of, again, brings something interesting into the mix because for most people who've experienced similar type things, that low level stuff to begin with. And if it then just ratchets goes up a notch, can't say the other word, my teeth keep getting stuck. If it goes up to that next level, that's when they typically start to leave. You didn't, you stuck it out. And therefore you've got again, this interesting thing playing out that you were documenting. And I think you're in one of those positions. And it's again, part of the frustrating thing that I experience and think about when it comes to the paranormal is that you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Because if we don't have video footage or audio footage or a photograph of something, well, it's anecdotal and there's no proof. If you have proof, it's well, that's too good to be true. There has to be something that's been fixed about it. You can't win. And it's frustrating because that wouldn't happen in any other area of science. But in your case, what you have got is very clear, documented proof. And not only proof from you but experiences from third party professionals, reports by different people working in the police force, in the fire service, so many other different agencies, kind of affirming what you yourself were experiencing, whether it was the spontaneous fire, having no explanation of how that occurred. And again, that's a very interesting case study, I think, of the type of phenomena that you are experiencing, seeing that escalation and that playing out with all of these different aspects to it being brought in by other professionals.

Michelle : Before we head back to the podcast, if you haven't already visited The Haunted History Chronicles Patreon Page, now is the perfect time to join, to listen and enjoy a multitude of additional podcasts, merchandise, mail, and other written materials. It's a great way to support the podcast to continue to grow and put out additional content to share guests and their stories, as well as helping the podcast to continue to be enjoyed. You can find the link in the episode Description Notes as well as on The Haunted History Chronicles website. And remember, you can always help support guests in the podcast by coming and liking the social media pages and chatting over there. It's truly all very much appreciated. And now let's head back to the podcast.

Keith Linder : Yeah, you're right. I tell people it was not my intention, but this is how it ended up. If me and Tina had left let's just say hypothetically, if me and Tina hadn't left the Baffle house, either because of the kit cough or the plant levitating that would have been in the story, this is who we just left. Oh, we're out of know. That's it. Look how much we leave behind as far as what we're talking about now, none of this other stuff would have never been known, including Rhonda and her experience, the previous tenants experience. So me staying, me documenting, yeah, it wasn't as rough. And I don't suggest anybody volunteer do it, but at least you have the documentation left over. You're right. I can't call it to cahoots with me. The Stahomas Fire Department, who respond and have to put out a fire in my office, they have to document their report. That's a legal document. Okay? And the conclusion they reached is unknown. Fire. I didn't tell them to do that. There's no money going under the table. There's no brownies. I'm not baking up cookies to write that on their report. That's an official state report. They have to take that back to their home office and classify it like we don't. House is fine. Lucky he survived. Minimum damage done. But we don't know what caused the fire. Skeptics ignore that. I can. Meaning? In 2008, 2009, when Rhonda lived there, there were 4911 calls to the Baffle home, four that were documented due to her suicide attempts that she told me in Chat. But she could have been just lying to me. But I went in research because in Washington you're allowed. You can go. If you're the home occupant, you can pull the 911 records from your own home if a resident can. And I did not to see if she was telling me the truth. I knew she was. I just wanted a paper trail. And when I got the paper trail, meaning the documents they sent me, these are reports that the police wrote when they responded to the 911 call. They have to once again follow the official report and tuck it away in their database. And when I read it, I'm reading what the police officer saw when he arrived on the city. If you have my second book, I put that in the book for others to read as well, and a link as well to the report. And in the paragraph of the report, the police officer says he responded to the 911 call and arrived to the home and heard a woman screaming from inside the house. What he wrote in quotes was, she's screaming, leave me alone. Why can't you all just leave me alone? This is in 2008, 2009. Okay, he's hearing that. So nobody's answering the front door, but he can hear screams. He walks to the back of the house, maybe somebody's in distress. Maybe there's a crime in progress, and upon going there, sees the sliding doors stuffed with a bed mattress. That's kind of weird. Who stuffs a glass door with a mattress? Well, you do if there's no glass no longer there. And he walks in. He removes the glass and walks in. And upon walking in, it's met with Rhonda coming from the garage, and she's holding a screwdriver, and she's just dug the screwdriver into her veins in her arm, and she's screaming, why can't they just leave me alone? And he tases her to apprehend her. Obviously, she drops the screwdriver, and they take her away. And then he wrote on his report, one of the last things he wrote on there is, there's nobody else in the home. Okay, obviously there's nobody else in the home. And this is what Rhonda was screaming. Now, he doesn't know why Rhonda is screaming. He looks like she's deranged or something. But that's not his problem to solve. He was just there to solve a 911 call. The paramedics arrived. They'll solve that problem of what's wrong with Rhonda. And his report was, there's no one in the home. So I asked you, and I asked your listeners and people who read my book, and I asked Skeptics. This is 2000 and 2009. Four years for me and Tina were even a couple. We're not even a couple yet. I don't even know Tina yet. Tina doesn't know me yet. We didn't meet till 2010. He writes in his report these things. And I asked anybody listening to this right now, who is Rhonda screaming to? Who is she talking to? Why don't y'all just leave me alone? She's not on the phone. That was shown from the report on the phone phone call, rhonda told me who she was screaming to or at. Okay. It was the voices she was hearing in her head to kill herself. The voices in her head was telling her to kill herself. She didn't want to. And unfortunately, in 2016, September, I believe, she successfully killed herself. She walked in front of a moving train in broad daylight and let a train run her over and wouldn't get off the tracks when the train was honking or blowing, whatever they do to get you off the tracks. But even when the train stopped, its momentum kept going, and Rhonda's no longer with us. So people in the paranormal I'm talking about skeptics or citizens, say all they want about Portuguese, other cases, but they can't say that about the Balthel house because what Rhonda went through and what is documented in official state reports has nothing to do with Keith and Tina. Now you have Keith and Tina come into that same house four years later, and you can sort of see, wow, you guys just walked into something totally horrible, and we're totally oblivious. You can say y'all were doomed from the start, and you'd be right. People would be right in saying that we were doomed from the start, because do you think I would have moved it to a house? But I don't know, four years ago, a woman is in her garage screaming, Leave me alone. And bloodied arms and a screwdriver to her arm. Do you think I would have moved it to that house? No. I would heck no. But nobody never brings that up as far as the skeptic community.

Michelle: No, because again, I think it's something that people try to rationalize away of. Well, that's an example of someone who was obviously psychologically struggling, maybe having some kind of break, maybe suffering from some kind of depressive state. We try and rationalize things away, but what you've got are experiences being echoed, repeated, and that doesn't happen in a vacuum. That's not something that you should so easily explain away. And I think what is so often underestimated when we look at these types of phenomena is just how psychologically isolating they are. People can feel very, very alone and misunderstood, not being heard. They can be dismissed by people if they go and seek help from various different organizations. They can have doors closed in their face. And so they are very much experiencing it by themselves. And the more that happens, the more inward you start to become. You become the very thing that I think they want you to be, which is even more vulnerable to what it is that they are doing to, you know, they want that.

Keith Linder : Yeah. It's not an accident or coincidence, rhonda's situation or me and Tina's situation of Tina finally moving out. Because when Tina finally moved out, they won one aspect of their torment, which is divide. And know, now it's just me in the home. And it got pretty dark with just me in the home. I mean, me and Tina can always rely on each other. There's always safety in numbers. I don't care how hopeless you feel. There's always safety in numbers. Okay. Tina's witnessed a lot of phenomena that I've witnessed because we're in the same room together, let alone the same house together. Now I have to worry about, okay, what happens if they push me down the stairs? Know, Tina ran to my aide when I got pushed the first time. What happens the second time? What happens if they start a fire now with just me in the home or throw an object my way? So all those things are running through my head because now it's just me. They've already gotten Tina out and now they got me where they want me. Okay, we got one now we can go help. So yeah, there's that factor that I constantly have to talk about. It's true. I slept with one eye open probably for the remainder of the duration of while I lived in the home, especially maybe up until Stephen Dawn arrived because I was just mainly going off fear of the no. What's going to happen? I got to sleep, I got to work. I'm not getting 8 hours of sleep, so I'll make do with four. And when you got running on 4 hours of sleep, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to be grouchy. And then if I be grouchy and if I verbalize that grouch and I leave me alone or curse at them, then they're going to take it up a notch. Okay, we got him. We working on him. He's getting grouchy. He's got 4 hours of sleep three days in a row. These are the things the psychological aspect I tell people is ten times worse than the physical phenomena that we witnessed. Ten times worse when we saw the first Bible on fire. There's all kind of psychological things running through your brain. Our brain, once we realized that was a Bible like man who burns the Bible, what force feels that comfortable, let alone two more times after that and it's fire in your home. Going back to that vulnerability of you're sleeping and you're waking in the building, anybody can relate to that. Everybody's home today. A home has a smoke or fire detector and you probably get a unanimous 100% vote if you ask who would fear worse, having a fire go off during the daytime while you're awake or have a fire go off while you're asleep, I think it'd be unanimous. None of us wants to deal with a fire while we're asleep or the next will be taking a shower or bath, which is interesting. The times they used to start a fire is when you're most vulnerable, where they can catch you off guard. And when they catch you off guard, you're going to overcompensate, overcorrect, you're going to. Make mistakes and yeah, the psychological the pushing down the stairs. I never forget when Steve Adal played back the EVP where the voices admitted that they pushed me down the stairs. Very nonchalant. Very nonchalant. No sign of guilt or remorse or anything. If I was to ask you if you done something bad, but so you better. Yeah, we push them downstairs. Yeah, we did. They said we. Yeah, we did. It was almost like there was a, yeah, all right, we don't know about it. We can do it again. And when I heard that, I was like, psychological, psychological. They're trying to beat you down. Beat you down. So I understood. Rhonda when she told me about her novel, one called because her husband was half a world away. It was a surgeon or three kids. One was very sick. They were up to their heads in medical bills because her son was very sick. He was near death. The medical family in the medical community, seattle Children's Hospital, were their wits in on root cause of his meningitis. They didn't know what to do. It was a very familiar, unfamiliar case of meningitis, and they know what to do. And then the husband has to take on a job to be an elastic fisherman based on the pay. It pays a lot of money, but it's very dangerous. You're in the ocean all day, all night, in one of the roughest seas in the world. He's sending money home, but he's not at home. He's left the wife to deal with the kids and who are sick. And you got a spirit there, and that's just easy pickets. That's just easy pickets for poultry guys, and they know that. And so, yeah, her becoming suicidal didn't surprise me. Didn't surprise me whatsoever. You.

Michelle: I think it becomes a hallmark of these types of experiences. And rather than doing what I think tends to happen, which is to say, well, it's because of something that was in that person to begin with that's caused this. We need to flip that script and actually realize, no, it's becoming a product of what they're experiencing. It's almost like psychological warfare in the sense that it's, over time, grinding that person down. And the more that happens, I think the more in tune you become to the types of experiences that are happening. And the more in tune you become, the more aware you become, the more it then escalates, the more it then happens. And I think that's why then we also see in so many cases documented how it does seem to manifest around certain individuals, and it's usually those that are really tuning into what's happening and looking at what's happening and seeing what's happening, and they become that target then of more and more things happening. And you mentioned earlier about how the energy of the land, something about the land, might be causing what's happening. I also think it's the right combination of people and sometimes I do think it is the person who's aware of what's happening also then feeding what happens, if that makes sense.

Keith Linder : Yeah, it's a YinYang, right? One cannot do without the other. There's a very important EVP on my YouTube channel. A male voice volunteered and said, just out in the blue, I'm a mirror. And it was captured on three devices. These devices were running continuously all the time, and upon review, you can hear a male voice say, I'm a mirror. And I took heart to that. The theory that I've concluded is, you're right. It's a yin yang. As far what we say in the United States when we argue with somebody, my grandmother would always say when I argue with my brother or sister, and I would always come to her, well, I'm innocent. I'm innocent. She's picked the fight with me. I didn't start anything. Why are you spanking me, too? And she'd be like, well, it takes two to tank up. I think Portuguese, there's some truth there in the sense of tina never saw the gray lady in the home. Tina never saw the white apparition. The kid call, we heard on day one of signing the leasing papers, the poltergeist, whoever did that kid cough were already in the home when we walked in, and within seconds of walking into the home, decided to give us our first paranormal encounter versus let's let them move in a little bit. Let's let them get settled in, get their clothes, the TV, the couch, the furniture. Let's wait and let them get acclimated. Guys, before we start doing the promo stuff, okay? Can we get a vote on that? No. The kid call was day one, okay? And that's always haunted me and proph forever will, but it's like, why day one? Why not day 35 or day 46? And I think you're right. I think they saw in us I'll use this word potential to where they could execute phenomena to the degree that the case is known for today. They knew Tina's background. They knew my background, and they saw us. To use my grandmother's phrase, we're going to tango with you guys whether you know it or not, we're going to dance with you, and you are very soon going to dance with us. You just don't know it yet. And we were. I was. And I think if you look at other Portuguese cases past that present, you could probably find similarities. Where I differ with some paranormal groups is where they try to make the house occupants or the party feel guilty. There's a stigma even outside the paranormal community. A little bit of stigma. Well, you got poaching us activity. Whoa. Stay away from that guy. Something's going on in his world. I want to be part of that. I get that today, so I know it's true. My story hits certain people's ears, they take two steps back. It's like I went to Chernobyl or something, and then you get that stigma. The paranormal teams go back to how they treated Tina. They give you that stigma, too, or paranormal teams, because one of the often repeated questions I get asked when interviewed, talking about when I wasn't above the houses, okay, what level of dysfunction we're looking? We're looking for a level of dysfunction in the home, some sort of these things like dysfunction. So we were in quantify dysfunction. You can't say there's no lack of money. There's no financial stress. I tell people, I got the Baffle house. I had just had a job promotion. I had just had a significant pay increase. Maybe some sort of health crisis. Well, for a health crisis. No, I'm in good health. Tina's in good health. You can look at us up and down. Same bill of health, even to this day. Every physical I got, inside and outside the house, I passed with flying colors. Besides lack of sleep. My doctor said, Keith, physically you're okay, you're good. Your vitals are where they need to be. For a guy your age, you're good. Might come back on the French fries, but that's yeah. So those things were some other sometimes it might not just be Truman. Sometimes it might be, okay, here's a tech guy coming in, and here's Tina coming in. And we think we can get some mileage out of both of them. And they knew that better than us. Obviously, they were right. In other cases, the same way, it's always like we try to look for the fault in individuals other than they're just being human. Like you said, if it was all about adolescent stressful, teenagers going to puberty and all that, it's 8 billion people on the planet. I don't know, off the top of my head, how many are adolescent teenagers going to puberty, but that's a significant amount. We would see more cases.

Michelle: Yeah, it would be on the knees.

Keith Linder : Every knees, every night. Last year. I know you remember this, and I think she's coming to your country sooner or later. When Taylor Swift announced that she was going to go on concert, the ticketmaster and crashed, the servers crashed. And a lot of teenage adolescent girls in the United States a lot, could not get Taylor Swift tickets. And they were going suicidal. They were driving. It was crazy. They were crying, ratting their congressman, congresswoman. They were posting on TikTok and Facebook. It was a revolt and uproar about not getting Taylor Swift tickets because they were sold out or the tickets cost too much. And I did not see a spike in poltergeist activity. No parents calling their homes, hey, man, I got flying furniture that coincided with Taylor Swift, announced she's coming, doing a tour. I didn't see a spiking activity. I didn't see a spiking activity during COVID lockdown in the United States or the world over when everybody husband and wife were working from home. And I've been on many Zoom calls, and the husband and wife are home 24/7 together now, and the kids are too. Nobody's going anywhere. And I just see a spike of activity, so I think we could put that to bed. All right. Okay. So, yeah. Now let's look at these other reasons why this might be happening. You're right. Is it the land? Is it the energy? But you're right. It's definitely that I'm a mirror. The male voice, that's an important, in my opinion, revelation of what it was trying to convey. I'm my own entity. I'm my own energy, but I'm like a chameleon. I'm like a lizard who changes its color to match his or her environment, okay? It's a survival evolutionary instinct that we adopt. Every species has one. This is ours. One of my often favorite quotes, and I think I included in one of the books because I'm a geek, so I can do that is Empire Strikes Back when Luke Skywalker is talking to Yoda and there's this dark cave on the planet and Luke is looking at this cave and he can feel the energy coming from it. The energy from the cave is talking to him. He's getting goosebumps. He's just saying, Yoda, like, what's that cave about? Yoda's like, hey, man, that cave is but you got to go through it's just part of your trial. So you got to walk in there. And then Luke looks at Yoda like, you walking in that cave, and you're like, yeah, you kind of well, he puts on his gun belt, his blast belt, and Yoda looked at him like, your weapons, you will not need them. Well, first he asks Yoda, well, what's in there? What's in the cave? And Yoda replies, Only what you take with you. Only what you take with you. He grabs his weapons, and Yoda tries to give him a warning, like a hint, like him, you're not going to need your weapons, but what you'll find in there is only what you take with you. And I always remember that to the I'm a mirror EVP that we captured at the Boba house.

Michelle: And I think something else. That line about the mirror that you had come through that I also think is really interesting is that when you look at a lot of the experiences, there is this mirroring of trying to use things that we understand. Whether it's religious iconography, like a Bible, like a cross, whether it is using symbols that we'll recognize Native American symbols or things that are something that we will understand and have some connection with in some way, they get used. And again, it really does, I think, put a really big tick against this is something very, very intellectual, using things that are very familiar to us to cause fear, to use it, to subvert it, to cause fear, and again, to grab our attention. Because there's nothing more noticeable than something we recognize in that way being destroyed, being used to write messages on the wall with, to change it in some way and turn it into something else. And again, so very intelligent. But it is mirroring us, but changing it in some way to kind of do that psychological harm again, to create fear, because, again, it's what it wants.

Keith Linder : Yeah. You bring up an interesting point that I never really gave much attention to, but that's very interesting. The six six six wall riders in Mantina's office. We see that in Hollywood. That never scared me and Tina. I was upset about it being written on my wall because I have to paint over it or I have to remove it. But I told Tina, I said these things. They never made much or many mistakes in the House Poultry guys, but that one they sort of did. But I think they got that six six six from their group thing, other poetry gang system, if that makes sense. And there's data in my case to support there's a group thing going on. So I use the metaphor of the board, the Borg in Star Trek of the Beehive, everything goes back to the collective, whether it be in North America, Europe, South America, Asia, Australia, whatever. All these activities go back to another high of Portuguese and they share this information. It's like a group thing. The six six six they did, I believe, because they wanted to conjure up fear and hopelessness for being Tina. Oh, my God. Six six six. Lucifer is coming. Oh, my God, the holy water. They want us to throw everything on the six six six, see the both eyes open, get in the fetal position and cry, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. And we didn't do that. We did it. Now, other stuff we did, but not that. I was like, me and Tina got so much hate email from the six six six. People are like, you guys did that yourselves. You put that six six up there to get attention, to get a rise out of people. No, we didn't. But they probably did that for you out there in the world, but in us. But Midtina didn't get scared by the six. I think the Portuguese thought they could write that on there and hope that we would. But it might have had some of its data might have been a little bit outdated, too. It might have been looking like, oh, pizza. Tina, don't respond negatively to the six six six. Okay, that's interesting. Now, the Die KL idea that's rewriting my name because I'm like, well, this thing know my name. So that idea. But the Six six Six, I think, suggests they were pulling from the existing, I don't know, mindset that we see that Hollywood does with these cases and what fraudsters and hoaxers do with these cases, too, of just going for the jugular. Meaning, oh, just write Lucifer paraphernalia on the wall. And that'll really scare know all that stuff. But I think they miscalculate that portion the Portuguese guys did because we didn't get a rise out of that. Only thing I did was get warmth of the water and try to rub it off. But other paranormal teams, or ghost hunters I call them, they got to rise out of it. Oh my God, six six six. And they start telling us some of their stupid theories that me and Tina just looked at each other and like dude, come on, don't pull a wall over eyes. Okay, let's walk it back a little bit. Six six. It's obviously a cliche now. It rolls off mid to get it very easily, but you guys are making a big hay out of it compared to us that we live here. So that was very interesting and I think today, and I tell people of all the wall writings, the six six six had the least has zero impact as far as fear level, as far as oh, Satan is here. No, we did not leap to the same conclusion because six six six is written on our wall.

Michelle: But I think you're right. I think it's this almost tapping into a bigger mindset. Being aware of popular culture, if you like, or popular mediums that they know mean something to someone and using that to somehow try and suggest something, whether it's to you or to Tina at the time or others coming in, it creates a response whether that doesn't really do anything or oh, my God. What is that trying to tell of it's doing that on different levels, I think, which, again, is just very suggestive of something far more intelligent trying to communicate.

Keith Linder : Yeah, very intelligent, very manipulative. Yes, very groupthink like, very calculative. Which I'm going back to what I said, they're observing us too. And I have to think when you observe something, you're taking what you observe back to the collective. It's just not free, Willy. They're doing things like I said, they did things to get a rise out of me. They did things to get a rise out of Tina. Like to purposely put female jury in the home, not children's jury, but females jury in the home for Tina to find it not me, I never found female jury. Tina always found them and she would bring it to my attention because my job back then sort of now I work from home a know, maybe two times, three times a week. So Tina would come from her eight hour, nine hour day to a guy who's already home all day. And for a woman to walk home and come into home as ours, or any home for that matter in the ten two house chores. Just normal stuff you do on a regular day of laundry, changing the sheets of the bed and to find female jury, not yours. But being in the bathroom. It being the kitchen sink. It be in the bed, physically in the bed, in the shower stall. It's definitely them trying to get a rise out of it, because it would it would be I will come home and find a guy's shoe either living room, kitchen or Den garage. Yeah, I'd be upset. I'd be upset. I'd be livid if I found some guy's shoes on my side of the bed that were mine, I'd be living then. Or a toothbrush in my side of the sink that wasn't mine. I'm canceling. And they did that so that purposely, in my opinion, they are being calculated. They're trying to get a ride. They're trying to start World War Three here. And Kennedy will come to me just fearing like, what's this? We got the priest coming over in 2 hours to bless the house. And she's fear is rightfully so. She's not equating poltergeist with this level of stuff, minus all the stuff we've seen in her with our own eyes. I'm trying to convey to her, hey, remember what house we live in. Yeah, I know what house we live in. A house from hell. But this is though what's this woman jury doing over here? Well, you had somebody in the home while I was away and she has the physical jury in her hand. There's no question about that. That's a real jury. That's a real diamond, silver, whatever earring or whatever you're holding. I don't know how I got that, Tina, and let alone only your side of the know I've been home all day. I've never felt and that's what they did. And for me to get a rise out of me, I would come to my office and then sometimes I would find Tina's bracelet. What I know is her bracelet on my keyboard, on my safe, on my computer or computer printer. Well, lets me know. Oh, Tina's been rummaging through my office while I was gone. And I would hey, Tina, why are you rummaging through my office while I'm gone? What are you looking for? Finding your jury. It's almost like cookie crumble, finding your jury in places in the office. So, Tim, what are you looking for? I can help you out. What are you looking for when I'm gone? Are you rubbishing through my office? And she'd be looking like no kid. I've never been in your office. I've been in your office all day. I hate your office. Your office is the office from hell. And she'd be right here it is Officer Hell, but I'm fighting your jury. Your bracelet on my keyboard, and we have a whole hour, two hour conversation or argument behind that and go to bed mad at each other, forget to do our daily, nightly prayer, and then guess what? We've just been manipulated.

Michelle: Yeah, like a game control.

Keith Linder : And another day gone by. And then bam. Fire. Bam. I do stone. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. New war writing. And I think people need to look at that and be like, yeah, that's some stuff. That's intelligence.

Michelle: Again, just very isolating because they're trying to isolate you from the other person experiencing it. In that case, which is so damaging, it's so psychologically damaging to become that alone where you are arguing with a significant person in your life who's experiencing the exact same thing, but it almost makes it something that you're experiencing, something that Tina is experiencing as well as you experiencing something together. And so it is this constant, relentless attack in different forms and in different ways. Again, a bit like warfare. And again, I don't think it's necessarily understood in that way just how relentless it can be, whether it's something small and subversive or something very large like water puddles or spontaneous fires being set and all these other things. It can be something small and something very big. But the totality of that is really very significant.

Keith Linder : Yeah, like I said, it's psychological warfare. It's what nations do to other nations during war. There's the physical bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb away. There's a leafless drop. There's the monitoring of communication, and then there's the manipulation of the government and the politics to take a nation down, to make them lose and lose focus on what it is their initiative is our initiative as a couple was to fight this thing. Our support system was family, friends, friends and family, the local church and a few paranormal teams where things start being blown up, no pun intended, was when we're battling each other, we're arguing over this and this and that, where, oh, okay, we're not unified anymore. We're isolated and we were warmed. We were admonished that this would happen, but it doesn't change the fact that it still happens. And when it happens, you're the last one to know you're being manipulated. When you've been manipulated and when you see your partner being manipulated and vice versa, it's hard to convince him or her. I was saying, Al Qatina, everything that happens here on Earth, we got to question and ring through a prison. Okay? We got to filter very deep because remember, where we live at, remember, this is where we live. And it's easier said than done. And it'll work for a little while. Once again, you fall back into that old mind frame of thinking of, well, Hope, Keith is taking advantage of me. Oh, Tina's taking advantage of me. She's taking my kindness for, you know, having an affair. On top of this, he's still having an affair. He's bringing women when I'm not present. He thinks I'm stupid. Nobody wants to be thought of a view that's stupid or naive. And they listen to that. They know all of that. We need to sleep 8 hours out of a 24 hours day. Hopefully they don't. They're there all the time. They've been there before we arrive. They're there when we sleep, awake, having dinner, supper, talking. I'm on the phone talking to people. They're there all the time, and they're listening, and we're going to try this today. We're going to do this today. So, yeah, the psychological of anybody who deals with this will tell you is way worse than the physical.

Michelle: And I think, again, it's the relentless nature of it because you mentioned how this is something that doesn't just stay with you in that home. It's something that follows you effectively. You can experience these things elsewhere, whether it's in a restaurant 300 miles away in a hotel room. It's something that follows and doesn't just disappear. You don't get a break from it. So it is, again, that relentless nature of it. The documentation that you've done is one thing which is fabulous as an account of step by step. This is what was experienced. This is how it happened. This is how it manifested. This is how it escalated. But again, one of the things that I really applaud you for is opening up a narrative about some of the other possibilities, the research, the thoughts, explanations that go beyond just the typical poltergeist haunting is this. And this is the only explanation. You're offering other possibilities and thoughts, and I really do applaud you for that. And logical question to ask is what you think some of that physics involved is what are your key thoughts, your key takeaways as to what you think the poltergeist activity really is, what could be causing it, what they're using, if.

Keith Linder : You like, as my case, as the example, and a few others. I think poltergeist, once again, are third party sentient, intelligent beings that operate from a hidden universe, a hidden dimension next to our own quantum mechanics. The theory that Einstein was reluctant to accept but finally did because the math is there, suggests that there are hidden dimensions close to the human being, to the human eye. There's much more that we cannot see. 99.99% of the universe our human eyes cannot even see, let alone detect. And these entities operate from that domain. They can interact at will, just like you and me can interact with. For an example, subpar species, a fish in a fishbowl. A fish in a fishbowl is a confined universe. It knows nothing of the outside world, even though the fish bowl is made of glass, okay? And you and I, looking above it, can see it to it. We can interact with it. We can put food in there, put new gravel in there, new rocks, whatever, and the fish is totally in the world. What's causing these things? It's like, hey, who keeps moving around? I love the food that's being given to me, but I necessarily don't understand what's going on here. But I'm alive, so I'm going to bite the hand to feed me. These entities are looking at us the same way. It's sort of like the old proverb, throw stones and hide your hand. I mean, that specifically. Poltergeist could throw stones, literally, and hide your hand and you not know where that stone or came from or the direction that it came from. That's why some of these stones, when picked up, are hot or cold to the touch. I think I give a brief description as to why that's so. In my book, these objects travel very far. They move very fast. The heat you're feeling from a rock or coin or whatever that was recently thrown is because whatever was thrown was traveling at a mid speed through air. It is friction of the air onto that object that causes it to heat up. And everybody will tell you these objects travel at emit speeds. That's why we call them projectiles. And they leave large gashes and holes and walls and do considerable damage and can hurt if they hit somebody. And those that travel could do zigzag and figure eight flip flop in the midair. And we're like, how is that even done? But it is. But if you're working or operating from a hidden or closed dimension, your laws of physics are going to be superior to our own. To us, it looks like magic. To them, we're just able to do this like you and I are able to do things to where an animal sees it. It is like magic. So science says there are eleven, if not more hidden dimensions. And I think based on the evidence from the Baffle house and others supports that. It's not far fetched. People want to prove me wrong, prove the mathematical quantum physics wrong, based on my assumptions of what they provide. But they said, yeah, the human eye sees only one spectrum, but there are other spectrums, microwave radiation, things of that nature, infrared, those are spectrums of light as well, that we have to use machines to aid us. But those spectrums exist. So yeah, that's what I believe. We're talking about a third party entity with enormous capability. Doesn't make them God. I say this very specifically makes them godlike based on our understanding of the deity. We tend to put things that exceed our capability in a deity. These entities have deity like characteristics. They can cause objects to light on fire within a second. You and I can't do that. We need an accelerant cigarette lighter or lighter. I can't think and look at a book and say, start on fire. That's not going to happen. Things can with these entities. And if there is, as to why they can't do that, physics does support that. We just can't do it.

Michelle: And I think there's something very much about us as a species whereby if it's something that we can't see, if it's something that we can't hear, if it's beyond us and something of our making somehow, therefore it doesn't exist. We have a bit of a God complex, I think. And I think you're right. There is so much more that we as humans and our frailties and our inability limits us. There are. Things that we don't hear that other animals do. Animals see in different ways. We limit our thinking based on that perception of that it somehow all revolves around us. And again, one of the really interesting things that I think you cover in the night side of physics is this discussion around things like sound waves, invisible sound waves, and how that might be responsible for some of the phenomena, like things levitating, things smashing, literally, almost imploding from the inside out, things like the water puddles. All of these phenomena could be explained by other aspects of science. And again, that's the type of stuff, the exciting stuff that I wish we spent more time talking and thinking about and putting energy into, because it's as of yet, I think, the kind of the side of it that we haven't tapped into enough, in my opinion.

Keith Linder : Yeah, I mean, infrared or infrared sound waves, sonic sound waves infrasound sound waves. I did not know it, but when I read, I was like, wow, the super larges are so uncanny, the invisible sound waves that humans can't hear, you're right. Our senses, and this is probably by design, and I have to believe evolution does this as a means of protecting us, because some of these sound waves, if hurt, they can't harm you, even if silence, who can't hear, can do harm to the human mind and body. But they have interesting characteristics, these infrasounds. And they can it's been proven in laboratories that infrasound can move or lift objects, that they can move and lift heavy objects. Science is just now at the early infant stage of understanding what that is and how it's done. Therefore, it doesn't mean that something more intelligent operating from another dimension can do it very easy compared to we need machines to fly these objects that are moving in homes, haunted homes. I always tell people, when you look at the invisible sound waves, we have to look for the trends. And the trends are very weird and uncanny. When you look at invisible sound waves, animals can detect invisible sound waves, animals can hear. And there's been documented cases of homes with animals or pets of the animals behaving weirdly in a poltergeist environment. We know through historical cases of tsunamis happened all over the world, that the animals and the Sri Lanka tsunami several years back, where the animals vacated the beach areas within hours of tsunami arriving. And that's because the sound arrived first, and therefore, they are instinctively going to higher ground, whereas humans, we don't go to higher ground. We didn't hear with the naked ear. If you're not listening to a radio or have something tell you, you could be in serious trouble. But animals purposely know how to move away, even sometimes from a volcano erupting. These are documented cases where we look at a volcano like, oh, man, it blew up today. Sunset blew up today. Not understanding? Well, yeah, it blew up today. But it's been preparing that for quite some time. It's been about to blow up for weeks or months or years. And the sound wave reaches a certain pitch to the animals knowing, too, and they move away, while we might be slow and reluctant to move. So I noticed a similarity with how science was saying, what are the ramifications of invisible sound waves? And it was objects moving, animals could hear. There's a sense of feeling of being watched associated with invisible sound waves. There's an uneasy feeling associated with invisible sound waves. You can cause equipment malfunction up until the point of even rebooting on its own. You can also cause equipment to have battery or power failure on its own. By the use of invisible sound waves. You can create water puddles or the appearance of water through invisible sound waves. You could start spontaneous fires through invisible sound waves. So I give a description of my theory of the entity with these capabilities built within its DNA, within its makeup. No entity is not walking around the Baffle house waving an invisible sound wave device in my office. Okay, we want officers, start flying. We're going to wave at this device in Keith's office and make objects. No. The entity is the southwave. Everything on Earth or in this galaxy, us included, has a frequency, gives off a frequency. And why should we think entities are any different? You and I talk, breathe, and some of us, same species as humans, can excel to better, bigger feats as far as track and field running, swimming, holding your breath. But we're all from the same species. But there are some of us who excel greater than others and entities of poltergeist who are the same way. Not every poltergeist house has experienced a spontaneous fire. And I believe that's because that species of poltergeist that is capable of creating spontaneous fires is not in the home. Those who have experienced spontaneous fire, that poltergeist has the proclivity and ability to execute. It's very interesting. Now, today, 2023, you don't hear spontaneous fire cases as much as you often heard in the early 19 hundreds. I'm talking about civilized country, I'm talking about modern countries, but you still hear about them in third world countries of the fire, poltergeist, deadly fires to put mine to shame, in remote parts of the world, where technology, where monitoring system, where listening systems, where detection systems has not reached. Know what saved me and Tina was the smoke and alarm detector. When our fires erupted in certain parts of the world, they don't have that. The house I live in now has a robust sprinkler system. So the Portuguese is going to start firing. Keith leders home today. It's not going to have the awe and horrific effect because the smoke alarm is going to go off. And if that doesn't go off and the fire has started, once it reaches certain apex, this water sprinkler system is going to kick in. Whereas you got a third country or somewhere remote, they won't have these luxuries. And those are the poltergeist's playground, those that start fires. That's why you see a congregation, if you will. My theory, in my opinion, you see a congregation of what I call pyro poltergeist today in third part countries of the know, southern Asia, parts of Africa, rural South America, where it takes by jeep days to hike in. And you get to these remote places and you see the places you're like, wow. But the people will tell you the characteristics are all the same. Fire started abruptly, no root cause, things just burned in addition to the other activity and phenomena that happened. But I cannot find Sister Baclaus in North America, United States specifically, of another Portuguese case where fire is a problem. I know that I have other Portuguese cases because I get emails all the time. I've not found one even in the UK. I have one of the fires, or from Australia or Asia, somewhere in Japan, China, something like that. But the rural country, yeah, I know they're still happening, but I think those Portuguese have migrated, if you will, to remote areas. Same thing with stone throwing. I cannot find a recent stone throwing. And if you notice the farther back you go with poultry gas activity, one of the main activity was stone throwing. The older I get with poultry gas cases, the most symptoms I see are the pebbles or rocks that are hitting the houses or flying through the window. Some houses, they may have glass. Back then, the rock just flow in. There was no glass. Essentially the clay as deco. So those are really easily noticeable. But today, 2023, if a pork was to throw a rock at my house on the roof, I would hear, because I got so many appliances on, it had to be a significant rock. I have TV on all day, have this on all day. There's so many noises that's going to drown that out. Whereas remote part of the world where they have no appliance in the home where you got to cook your food outside yeah, rock bank throw while you're trying to sleep, or a pocket full of rocks will be 20 or more coming at the same time through a window or through a roof. That's going to be significant to somebody who has to cook their food outside. But for you and me, you don't hear about those cases anymore. The poltergeist in modern world has moved on to other things, like my Alexa. Pretty sure you've heard other people's Alexa. We sort of shrug it off. It talks sometimes. It's just by itself just talks or answers its own command. I'm like, who told you to do yeah, you know, and we shrug it off and you see the just Amazon listening. Is it really Amazon? I mean, Amazon I know because I have friends that work for amazon. I live in Seattle. Headquarters of Amazon. I could easily email the creator of Alexa and ask them, did you program? Is there a program? Something in the code? We're just as dumbfounded as we are in R D department as the world is. We don't know why Alexa does this. Google the same know. I know the people who design these softwares. They're friends of mine, they're colleagues of mine, and they're just as dumbfounded. But it's not going to make front page. They're not going to say poltergeist or something. They're just as dumbfounded. It's not programmed to do that. It can't do that. But you get examples of, why is my Alexa talking to me? Why not even answer the question? Or it's executing something invisible sound waves. Something is talking to it, to where it's responding.

Michelle: So, yeah, I think it's learning as well. I think it's learning what we have adapting. And again, just something very, very intellectual about that and quite haunting in itself, because it very much speaks to you mentioned something's talking. I do think there is something communicating with us, and in this case, something very intelligent, something quite manipulative and malevolent. And again, I think it's using what people have and mirroring that back to them. And if it's using complex devices like Alexa, it's got that capability. And like you said, it's using things that maybe we don't have full understanding of yet. But I think the more we discuss, the more we look into these things, the more we and having a narrative around these things, I think the possibilities begin to open up as to what could be happening. And from my perspective, I would love nothing more than to see a reevaluation and a really good comprehensive study of poltergeist cases. But opening up what a poltergeist case looks like to include far more current examples, these examples that maybe have been dismissed as something else, reevaluate them, look at historic cases, look at present cases and start to maybe reclassify and rethink what we believe we know already. Because I think there's far more that we don't know than what we do know.

Keith Linder : We know nothing. We know zilch and half of us, our own fault. Because, like I said, we have this conscious bias of wanting to prove our theory, to be the correct theory and don't look at other theories or other facts or other data. So we just focus on one aspect of the phenomena, and that's a problem that hinders us advancing the field or our knowledge of what's happening. But it should be surprised to those who study poltergeist or paranormal when you take into account majority of the EVPs that Steve and others captured at the bothelhouse was voices that they found on recordings, audio or video that they reviewed later and upon review and putting it through sensitive sound to enhance the sound or to remove background noise, heard these well enunciated, intelligent, thought conversations of a male talking to a male, male talking to a female. Sometimes it's female only or child voice. These are voices that the human ear did not hear, but the recording device did. This is a tape recorder or MP3, audio voice recorder, whatever, but it's still an electronic device from a high low. It's no different than Alessa.

Michelle: Yeah, okay.

Keith Linder : Alessa has a microphone in built into it, and it pulls information in. These devices do the same thing. The naked ear cannot hear. But Alexa, being on all the time, hears and listens. So it's hearing voices that you and I don't hear. And therefore, if it's hearing a voice, it's hearing a command. Now where this is going to get interesting. What I believe in theory is as society mean as human beings, as we advance with our technology and gadgets. Keep in mind, 20 years ago, we didn't have the Internet. Let's go back ten years ago. Ten years ago. 15 years ago, the only time you had to get on the Internet was use at home. That's the only time you had access to your Internet. We now have access to the Internet everywhere we go. The Internet follows you. It's in your pocket, it's in your cell phone. The Internet is in your car. The Internet's in your restaurant. Every time you go to a restaurant, my friends always laugh because they're like, what's the WiFi password here? Everybody wants to know the WiFi of the restaurant they're in. The Internet is everywhere, man. And we didn't have that 1520 years ago. You had to go to the Internet. You had to rush home and get on your computer and get on a landline or 56K modem or something and dial out. Now it became more streamlined, and now you have the Internet on all these gadgets, and they're all connected, okay? So I tell people because I study it. This is what we do. It's our viruses. It's all our spread. If I'm a poltergeist, I can go from house to house. Usually back in the day, a Portuguese would just say, for lack of word, body jump. Okay? So a body chuck, it's adopted to an object. An animate object, a doll, a tricycle, a bike, a pillow, or whatever, some sort of trinket that you bought in the thrift store, and then you took it home with you. Now the poltergeist is in your home. Now, the poltergeist has the Internet, okay? It can go through the Internet and get into everybody's home, all right? Because we're all connected. If I send you an email and put an attachment onto you, that's why some people, when I email them or they download my books in the ebooks or have a communication with me via Zoom Chat or Facebook, they have an activity immediately on there. Something goes wrong. The dogs go crazy, cats go crazy. Because the poltergeist, I believe, is traveling through the Internet, okay? It's energy. We already know it's energy already. It's energy. And all the time it manifests when it shows its physical signs, when it manifests until it manifests, it's energy. And energy travels, and it can travel the speed of light through the Internet. So it's traveling almost through the speed of light and get to two places at one time. And it has an arena. The whole world is its playground now. So every advancement that we make, they make. Okay, going back to I'm a mirror. So that's why I believe you see, today people tell you their smart devices are acting up. This is acting up. This is acting up. This and this and this and this is acting up. And I believe it. They're everywhere because the Internet is always on. It's not something you could turn off. Like I said, if a virus spreads, if I open up a virus in my company where I work for today, if I get an outside email and don't run a virus scan by opening it, it takes down not only my computer, it takes every computer down in the company. So a poker guys could be the same way. Going back to my neighborhood, the bottle house where the guy was talking about, everybody was talking about their alarm systems going off, giving off false positives, but not so much WiFi. So much WiFi around that yeah, it's very easy for poltergeist to traverse, and they do. I believe they do traverse. I believe they do electronically. They didn't have that capability 50, 60 years ago, but they have it now. And the more handheld devices we have with the Internet built in, guess what? They can traverse that too. You're right. It's very interesting, and it should be talked about. We should be like comparing notes. Society. I believe we would take leaps in understanding this phenomena if we did that, versus these outdated theories, which I believe are just dinosaurs. We know so much now than the late, great Colin Wilson's and all these other people who did pave the way. So I give them respect in that regard, but they did not have what we have now.

Michelle: I think it's about trying to add to the picture that we already have. It's not a case of kicking it out of the door. It's reevaluating. It's a jigsaw. And it's a picture that I think continues to grow if we continue to look at it and examine and talk about it. And again, I just think that's the really important aspect that sometimes gets overlooked. Investigators, researchers, we can go into a situation. We can have something happen. We can hear something, we can capture something, and it's like, great, we've experienced this. But it's so what do you then do with it? It's what do you then test or set up with that bit of information or activity that you've experienced? What can we learn from that? What can we add to the discussion around that that I think is what would be really fantastic. And like I said, this is where coming back to your books, your three books, you've got two which very much focus on the experiences that you had, that Tina had that help to really highlight your case, which does show that real range of type of phenomena. But then we've got this book which know the night side of physics, which really does try and bring in some of that discussion, that rhetoric that I think would be great if we could have more of that. So they are three books that I highly recommend for people interested in parapsychology in poltergeist cases, just the paranormal in general. They are three really phenomenal books to look at, to look at as a case study. But some of that science and some of that discussion, as I've mentioned. So I'm going to make sure to kind of include all of the links to those on the website and in the podcast description notes so that people can easily find you along with your website and obviously your YouTube channel, which you've got, which is Keith L, YouTube. Because there's just so many resources, so many fantastic things that you're putting out there. You're not safeguarding it, you're not keeping it to yourself. You're basically saying, here's some evidence, take it, run with it. What can you learn from this? What can you do with this? It's for no other gain than putting it out there into the public domain for people to really learn from, to try and build this picture, as we've been mentioning. And I think that's really fantastic that you are putting it out there, as I say, for the purposes of really trying to add to the picture that we have and our understanding. So, yeah, I will make sure to add all of those details easily so people can come and find you. And I can't thank you enough for coming and chatting because like I said right at the very start, I think this is a bit of a misunderstood area that people have a perception of and I think we need to start challenging that perception. So thank you so much for coming and sharing your experiences and sharing some of your thoughts, really. So thank you so much.

Keith Linder : Keith hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for the good back and back question and answer. And you're right, I believe in information sharing. It's the only way we're going to learn. And I don't have all the answers, nobody does, but we have to start by sharing. So it was good to be here and talk to you and yeah, I hope you stay in touch 

Michelle : And I will say goodbye to everybody listening.

Michelle: Bye everybody.