The Enfield Poltergeist Revisited with Tony Hayes

0:32

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past, one ghostly tale at a time.

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0:48

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2:02

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:22

Welcome, dear listeners.

I'm your host, Michelle.

And today, we're stepping into the eerie shadows of one of the most infamous hauntings in modern history, the Enfield Haunting.

Picture it late 1970s in North London in a quiet, unassuming house on Green Street.

2:44

What begins as the innocent sound of knocking soon escalates into a terrifying ordeal that would grip the nation and become one of the most documented poltergeist cases ever recorded.

The Enfield Haunting is a story of fear, disbelief, and the unexplained, where ordinary lives were turned upside down by an unseen force that defied logic.

3:11

Tony's journey into the unknown began in 1989, and since then, he has delved deep into the mysteries of spontaneous activity, lending his expertise to some of the most perplexing cases.

With a background in science and physics, Tony brings a unique perspective to the table, blending analytical rigour with an open mind.

3:37

In today's episode, Tony will walk us through the harrowing events of the Enfield Haunting.

You will hear audio clips that capture the very essence of the phenomena.

As we step back into that turbulent period, we'll explore the public's fascination with the case, how it captivated headlines, drew sceptics and believers alike, and left an indelible mark on the history of paranormal investigation.

4:04

With Tony Hayes at the helm, we'll dissect the evidence, sift through the testimony, and confront the unsettling questions that remain unanswered to this day.

Prepared to be transported back to the late 70s to a time when the line between the known and the unknown was blurred and the Enfield haunting sent shivers down the spine of an entire nation.

4:30

Dim the lights, settle in, and join us as we unlock the secrets of this chilling case with Tony Hayes as our guide.

Throughout the following episode, you will hear direct voice recordings taken during the investigation itself at Enfield, as well as recordings from the investigators themselves speaking about poltergeists and the Enfield case.

4:59

Hi Tony, thank you so much again for joining me on another podcast.

Yeah, good evening, Michelle.

It's nice to to be back again.

So and another interesting poltergeist case.

Oh yeah, I don't think you could say the Enfield Poltergeist case is anything but interesting.

5:16

I think it's one that a lot of people are obviously aware of.

Whether they have the full knowledge and understanding of Enfield, I don't know, but I think it'll be a good, good opportunity to really dive deep into the case itself and understand it a bit more thoroughly.

Yeah, absolutely.

5:32

Similar to Boli Rechi really.

There's a lot of myths and legends and misunderstandings and different theories associated certainly with case of Anfield, as about with the Boli Rectory.

So it'd be nice to get through them, clear a few of those up.

5:49

So do you want to just start by providing an overview of thinking about the location, the family involved, just that kind of that basic understanding of what happened here?

Yeah, the, the, the, the Enfield case that really sprung into life in the summer of 1977 in Enfield in West London.

6:11

It, it was interesting in a social context because of the, IT, it really affected one family, the Hudsons, which is Peggy, the mother and the four children the husband left at that point.

6:28

So unusual for her mid 1970s.

She she was a single mum being it up a young family by herself.

The the case itself lasted around 18 months and was incredibly detailed as far as the investigation was concerned.

6:45

I think they had the right people involved at the beginning.

So I think when we look at cases where investigation such as the case I'm currently working, it was over five years old before it came to my attention.

All historical records I haven't got, all's I've got is a number of movies and I added into that comes the missing legends.

7:10

And I think with the Enfield, the investigations started very early on, certainly within a couple of months of the Enfield first being it into life.

So what was the kind of the historical context, if you like for the case, you know, how did it come into the to the public attention the way that it did?

7:28

Yeah, when you look at Enfield, it was unique because it's probably one of the first cases that we became focused into the media.

It was the media first got involved.

So the running to this was the the family who experienced some some strange phenomena initially frightened them.

7:50

Peggy Hodson, the mother, was somewhat in disbelief.

Is it the kids playing up before the the straw that sort of broke the camel's back with the heavy five sets of drawers that were in one of the children's bedrooms that just spontaneously moved a number of feet without anyone touching it?

8:10

That then spung Peggy Hodson into life and they took their children to the neighbours.

They actually got the police involved and this is, at the time, probably the right thing for them to do.

The police turned up on two occasions and actually witnessed phenomena taking place.

8:30

But the police can do nothing.

There's no crime being committed.

So apart from giving some sort of sympathy, couldn't do anything with it.

So the neighbours then contacted the Daily Mirror and it was a Daily Mirror themselves.

Initially there was a reluctance to attend Enfield, but because they were told that the police had witnesses, the attention then was well OK, let's go pay a visit.

8:53

They then witnessed phenomena themselves, including the fly in Lego bricks.

They then made the decision to contact the SPR Society of Cyclical Research and the Enfield story then began.

9:10

And you kind of briefly mentioned at the start the family members who were kind of at the the heart of of this case.

How were they affected by this haunting?

Yeah, the the four children, Margaret was 13, she was the oldest, followed by Johnny, who was eleven.

9:28

I think it was Johnny.

He he was age 10 and Billy was the youngest, age 7 that they were the four children.

I think it was Johnny he had, he probably in today's environment would say he had some learning difficulties and was often in in care, not as care home as in welfare, but he was apparently a difficult child to manage.

9:55

So he went into residential care for quite a long periods of his of his younger days.

So generally there's only three of the children, Margaret, John and and Billy.

And how would you say the experiences then differed for the different family members during the haunting itself?

10:16

The general belief was that most of the activities focused on the second olders, which is Janet Hodson.

But certainly in the case of Margaret, the older one, she also witnessed phenomena, but it seemed to be centred on Janet.

10:35

And I think this is where the and up to even today, some people generally believe that a poltergeist is pure energy coming from a generally a female reaching puberty.

We can't exclude that because if if for every case where you've got a young female reaching puberty, I'll have another nine cases, that suggests completely something indifferent to that.

10:59

So Enfield did give us a number of general theories that we are dealing with some form of hybrid energy and at that point certainly case of Maurice Gros and Guyline paper, they believe that it was associated to females which in puberty.

11:18

And I think the difficulty you have with a pure bird poltergeist these they only come around about every 10 to 20 years, 15 years on that period Michelle.

So we don't have an awful lot of the high end cases, the different levels of poltergeist from low end to mid range to, to high end, but the higher end ones that they're incredibly rare and we still don't know to this day what it is that we're dealing with.

11:46

So you kind of briefly mentioned a couple of names there.

Do you want to just explain who the primary investigators of this case were and what their backgrounds were?

Yeah, the the the first initial investigator is Morris Gross.

12:05

He it was actually his first case that he's taken on the SPR them days.

It was an invite only organization where today you can actually apply to become a member of the SPR them days it was in it was a pure invite.

12:20

So Morris Gross is interested in vitigating spontaneous cases.

So MPO was offered him and I think this still happens to this day.

When you know the SPR or any parmanormal organization gets that initial phone call, you don't initially know what you're dealing with.

12:44

So certainly in the case of of Enfield, Morris Gross was tasked mainly to shutting up because the the secretary of the time said he was mildering to death when I'm getting a case where the case solved.

But a case did come to his locality.

13:01

Mose Gross himself was the first one to contact him.

He then was initially working with the media that brought issues within the SPR.

You know, the SPR is an organization has been going over 142 years and they care very much about their public image.

13:22

So Mose Gross getting embedded with the the media wasn't their sort of thing.

And even today, Michelle, there is always apprehension from the SPR of getting too embedded into the media, particular live a live case.

13:38

So they introduce a guy by the name of guy lying lying paper, who without question at our point was the SPR poltergeist expert.

He does some work not only just in the UK, but abroad, including Brazil.

He, he investigated the famous Brazilian case.

13:56

So he was sent in just to really keep an eye on, on Morris Growth because there was, as he often find with these cases, a certain degree of disbelief and scepticism about.

Is this correct?

What we're being told here by the media via Morris Growth.

14:15

So they throughout the next 18 months, Guy Lane played by Morris Growth with the two people.

Morris Gross himself is with a highly intelligent guy, Sati no longer with those.

He was an inventor by possession ex Aria highly intelligent.

14:34

He wasn't what you would call a typical modern day ghost hunter.

The reason why most coaches himself got involved with the paranormal or investigating and said he's a member of the SPR was the fact he'd lost his daughter some years before, also by the name of Gianna, following a motorcycle accident.

14:55

And a lot of people, I think wrongly, have surmised he was probably not in the best mental state to deal with the complex case in in Enfield.

But having studied Enfield considerably over the decades, he did a good job.

15:11

Michelle.

I don't think they could have done any more than what they actually did for that period of time.

It's easy to look at it into modern contact, what we would do today, but back in 1977 there really wasn't much for them to go with.

15:28

But the investigation and all what they left behind for us researchers like myself to look at is an incredible legacy, thankfully.

What role would you say they played in the investigation?

You know what were their key contributions?

15:45

Guy Lane played for an issue which was was sent in to keep an eye on Morris Growth.

Morris Growth's intention was to investigate it.

The investigation side itself, like today I have multiple people I can pull onto for support from psychiatrists, psychologists, biologists, all manners are different people that are members within the SPR.

16:11

Morris Cross didn't generally have that available to him.

So everything was how can I work this case?

So it's all about evidence.

Take recorders, video cameras, normal cameras and so on and so forth and general making notes.

16:29

Guy Lane, Playfair.

When he joined him about four to five weeks later, he was able to bring his experience into his how to investigate and particularly document this case.

At that point they were thinking it was only going to last a matter of weeks, but in fact they were there for 18 months.

16:52

And during that kind of 18 months, were there any kind of particular phases would you say that were recognisable that you saw as part of that journey in terms of what was experienced?

You could practically split Enfield into three sections.

17:08

I often call it recycling.

It's when the phenomena just spontaneously changes and it's different.

So initially when the the family were first experiencing phenomena, they were reporting generally a white lady that was seen often in the in the living room or in the kitchen.

17:30

Bad smells were also documented at that point in time.

Then the phenomena then begins.

So you get the general wrapping, taps, footsteps, that type of thing which you will normally associate with the haunting.

Then what happens is your more extreme phenomena occurs, heavy objects move in, being thrown, that type of thing.

17:53

That's what generally then triggers the reaction to the family.

So an issue when you look at Enfield and it happens.

I think with most cases you get a mix of the haunting side.

So if you catch a poltergeist case early, you might misdiagnose and think I'm dealing with the haunting.

18:13

Then suddenly this is a poltergeist and sometimes the two run alongside each other crossing over and leaves you in quite a confused place thinking what am I dealing with here.

Then later on towards the end of the of the Enfield phenomena it began then to communicate which is the so-called Enfield tapes.

18:45

So there seemed to be a minimum of three stages.

The current case I've been dealing with now for 21 months, 22 months, that's recycled on five occasions.

It's similar to what happened in Enfield and there seems to be, I think in many respects.

19:01

So you don't just, it happens on say the first day of the 18 months and it stays the same.

There are periods of little bits of inactivity, sometimes maybe a week, couple of weeks, sometimes just days.

And then suddenly it changes and you're dealing with something completely different, almost as if a poltergeist moves out and is replaced by another.

19:24

So in the case of Enfield, the ghosts were there initially disappeared, poltergeist comes to visit, disappeared, replaced by the ghost again, who then began to communicate.

And that was right at the end of the of the 18 month period, which is quite a long time, you know, 18 months is quite some time.

19:44

And even now not all the Enfield documentation and evidence has been reviewed.

There's still stuff there to to see, although it will it will probably be small evidence rather than anything compelling because that would have almost undoubtedly been would have been dealt with by that.

20:08

So what would you say were some of the the significant events, you know, the turning points in the case and how did it kind of come to an end?

It's like when you look at any party guys, one of the questions you always ask is what was this trigger?

20:26

Where did this trigger occur from?

So and often you don't have an answer.

The only thing we have as far as Enfield's concerned was a highly stressed and an emotional household.

20:44

Mr. Hodgson had left, he'd moved in with another woman, left him, Mrs. Hodgson with the four children.

So you can imagine what that's like in 1977.

It's probably more acceptable in 2024, not so much so in 1977.

21:03

So that's about as closest we've got to understanding why this occurred.

Then obviously you've got then the myth and legends old the, you know, the the females reaching puberty.

21:19

Was that the trigger?

So they're the only two that we've got.

We don't know apart from that they're in the property perf of, you know, a couple years before anything occurred, which isn't uncommon.

So whatever was there, you know, the people lived in the property before never, you know, they never reported any activity.

21:38

That's one of the things that most girls looked at.

Never found a trigger and equally strange it suddenly just stopped 18 months on.

No reason for it, no understanding the case.

I'm currently working that again, we don't know why it suddenly came from nowhere so sort of spontaneously.

22:02

No trigger, no smoking gun.

I'm hoping at some point it will flat line for the sake of the family sanity, but you left with so many and it it's no different to other cases.

22:17

For example, the probably more recent one to that would probably the South Seals poltergeist Darren Ritzen case that was 11 months occurred spontaneously, disappeared equally as quickly on other cases such as the the Bothell House in Washington state, USA, the Keith Linda case that occurred spontaneously and disappeared.

22:41

And we just like scratching ahead, Michelle, not really understand it because sometimes when you deal with a haunting, particularly with the historical hauntings, you know, we look at historical figures, Anne Boleyn and others that Oh, yeah, it's the ghost of Anne Boleyn or it's our ghost of Annie the 8th or yes, somebody died in my property and he walks about from time to time with the poltergeist.

23:09

I think, I think we are dealing with something completely different.

What we don't understand is where it comes from and why particular households, because I asked the question quite recently.

Does anyone know of a household of one person living there that's been subjected to a poltergeist infestation?

23:32

Because I've not been able to find any.

And the most common occurrence is on young families.

The reason why, you know, I don't blame people thinking that the hypothesis here is, you know, it's energy attached to females, which in puberty are, it's a highly stressed household.

23:51

But how many houses in the UK are stressed?

Probably 80% of them.

You know, we expect to during COVID.

In fact, when I spoke to my colleague Amanda Griffey said, you know, now we're going into lockdown, we can expect a sudden increase in cars because suddenly people are stuck together in a household for weeks and weeks.

24:14

And are we going to see this energy suddenly find its way into phenomena?

And it never occurred.

In fact, it was the opposite.

We had less cases during COVID than what we anticipated.

So it it does leave you confused with very little answers, Michelle.

24:33

And but I think it's important to to kind of be aware of the different chess pieces, if you like, that's on the board of of what was happening around the family.

And I think the stress, certainly with the upheaval that they've been through is significant.

24:50

And I also think, you know, if you take into account the local geography at that time, you know, there are other factors at play that might have also contributed to those, those highly stressed environments, you know, that we've kind of been referencing, You know, I know for, I know for example, there was a murder not too far away, just around on a neighbouring St. that involved a father killing a young child.

25:17

And so, you know, there was a lot of things I think happening at that time within the family, but then also within the kind of the the local community that might have just added to that heightened sense of stress.

And again, I think it's important to recognise that that that may have been something that contributed to what happened here.

25:37

Yes, that's right.

I think as far as the the record show is that the the the Hodgson family had good neighbours.

They were friendly with the neighbours.

The children were were well behaved, although when the entered into the media, particularly the Daily Mirror run the the front page of the Daily Mirror, the House of Strange Happenings.

26:01

Certainly Margaret as well as Janet was subjected for bullying at school.

The you know kids will be bullies and would bidicule them over the story.

Margaret apparently was more capable of looking at herself where Janet was the more Placid of the of the two sisters.

26:23

Mrs. Hutchen herself is obviously lack of finance, money problems, that type of thing.

She was also being subjected to when the husband came out each Friday to drop off the Child Support money would often bring his new girlfriend with him.

26:43

That would obviously increase the stress.

So it was a stressed household, but it was far from unique.

I don't think Enfield stood out on it on its own it but it may, if you look at it, think it has to take a role or at least a par to what then occurred.

27:04

So do you want to just kind of give that kind of overview of the range of phenomena that was experienced during the Enfield case?

Because this is where I think people can have fixed ideas as to what happened, the kinds of things that were experienced, but it was so much broader than I think many are aware of.

27:24

So I don't know if you want to just give that brief overview as to what was experienced during that 18 months period of time.

Yeah, throughout the 18 months they did were subjected by multiple wrapping thoughts, bangs that continued throughout the 18 months, including the BBC Four reporter who arrived and actually recorded these raps, what she thought was coming from the stars, which is an incredible listen to to these things that are occurring.

27:59

They also had multiple objects, some of them incredibly heavy, that would move the police themselves when they turned turned up early.

Within the Enfield case, he said before the SPR was involved, witnessed a heavy old chair just suddenly sliding across the floor.

28:19

The police looked at that.

They couldn't find any reason why this had occurred.

Nothing there was fastened to such as fishing wire or fishing line.

The probably heaviest object was a cast iron fireplace at one of the the the bedrooms.

28:39

Morris Gross is present and that occurred.

So they just heard this colossal boom sound and they ran upstairs to find this heavyweight, probably probably 3 bags of coal weight.

So you're talking something of a significant weight.

28:55

I just pulled ripped out of the fireplace, objects disappearing, objects being thrown, Lego bricks, corpse, a teapot they also dealt with and it just didn't happen to when the girls were present.

29:14

One infamous one was Guy Lane Playfair.

We was in the kitchen making some notes and a neighbour came around to see how we, you know, what was occurring.

They'd had a cup of tea together and he'd asked most, sorry not most girls Guy Lane playfair what book he was reading and he told him so.

29:31

I've nearly finished it.

When I, when I finish reading, I'll I'll drop it off or you can have it.

Oh, thanks very much.

So a few hours later, finished the book, knocked on the neighbour's door, gave him the book neighbour walks in the house, Guyline Pifer walked back into the kitchen next door and the book's back on the table.

29:52

They also had a bizarre event with the levitation.

This has always been seen as controversial because the picture that the Daily Mirror ran looks like Janet Hodgson was jumping out of bed.

In fact, that's exactly what did occur.

30:09

The original pictures that were taken in black and white in the bedroom I've seen but the bit blurry and what the Daily Mirror wanted to do.

He's run a full colour picture and generally just got Janet Hodgson to attempt to try and duplicate the event.

30:29

But that was authenticated by the lollipop lady who used to leave the big sign in the Hudson's front garden.

And she came to pick the sign up and spotted Janet just levitating across the bedroom window.

30:47

And she's utter convinced that that's what she saw.

A witness statement up to the fact as well and also the orange cushion it was suddenly put an appearance on top of the house roof.

Examples of teleportation I believe are common in Enfield, such as the appearance of coins apparently dropping from the ceiling to land on the floor beside me, and the slipper seen by Guy player Guy Paper to disappear over the top of the bedroom door and then to be found directly underneath in the room below or on the map against the front door.

31:21

Because they were both, the slippers were found downstairs.

The appearance of a plastic rod in mid air in front of Mr. Mrs. Berkham's face came as a great surprise to her as she was standing at the kitchen sink one afternoon, so much so that she gave a scream and almost collapsed.

31:37

But perhaps the most bizarre of the episode that took place in that house was the placing of a large and heavy plastic cushion on the roof of the house, a cushion that only a moment before had been in the upstairs bedroom.

David Robertson, who was conducting some experiments with Janet at the time, was certain that Janet was not physically responsible for this happening and witnesses outside in the street were not aware of any opening of windows or any acrobatics taking place by anybody to get the cushion onto the roof.

32:07

Following on from this, Janet claimed that she subsequently floated through the wall into Misses Nottingham's bedroom.

We shall never know how all this took place, but the children's book that Janet claimed to be holding during her trip into Mrs. Nottingham's was actually found next door in that bedroom only minutes later.

32:27

No satisfactory explanation has ever been put forward for this episode, although one comment made to me summed up very nicely the depth of thought that is given to Paranormal Activity.

It was simply the kids were just playing clips on you.

So they had this continuous one after the other, these strange occurrences probably running into the 1000 events in total, which you can't argue the fact that it isn't a general heart and this is a a full blown operational poltergeist at work.

33:01

And again, I think one of the very compelling aspects is often witnessed by multiple people.

I mean, the orange cushion that you just mentioned was a heavy, heavy cushion and that was reported by multiple eyewitnesses from, you know, neighbours in the street who who saw this appear on the roof.

33:20

But the windows for the bedrooms were closed.

No explanation as to how it got up there from what they'd seen, what they'd observed.

And again, this I think is the compelling aspect that it's not just things being reported by the family.

It is police officers, it is neighbours, it is the family, it's people coming into the home as people externally witnessing things outside on the street at that kind of St.

33:46

Level, you know, you've got multiple things here happening that I think adds validity and real intrigue to the reported phenomena.

Yes, certainly, because a lot of people point towards the some degree of hopes that occurred in Anfield.

34:06

Yes, on one occasion Margaret and Janet Hodson got most courses.

Take the carder and hid it under the bed.

They were caught doing so on camera.

But then people get the poor, the skeptical, or the disbelievers because there's the difference between skepticism and disbelieving.

34:30

If you disbelieve, then you just disbelieve.

That's that's not an issue.

The skepticism is.

You've got to rely on the people that are evidence in this.

Maurice Gross and Galilean Playfire had absolutely no reason to invent the story.

34:48

So on the vast majority, probably more than 90% of the evidence was witnessed by one of them, at least one of them on multiple occasions by both of them.

And I think that's crucially important.

You know, people got say about the police, the reason why the Daily Mirror and the BBC Four got interested in it, because the police had witnessed it.

35:13

He seemed to throw a lot more, oh, this must be genuine and is therefore it's authentic.

But for what reason would Missus Hudson or the children for that matter, invent the whole story?

They didn't wish to move house.

In fact, Missus Hudson stayed in the property after the daughters got married and moved out for another 20 years and passed away in the property.

35:35

So that aspect of it is part of the frustration that we have within the paranormal.

You know, good skepticism is healthy, but where it moves into the more outlandish claims, then it's more bizarre than actually believing that it is in fact, generally paranormal.

35:59

So what would you say are, you know, some of the more notable or disturbing incidents that were documented as part of the experiences that took place?

Yeah.

I think in case of Morris Gross, you know, I'm looking at it in hindsight now.

36:17

Morris Gross generally saw it as a pure poltergeist.

Don't make that mistake.

I generally call them cases.

So if I had a case in Glasgow, call it Glasgow case.

I don't generally like to give it a label because obviously that will take you in a direction, although we are generally dealing with, in the case of Anfield Poltergeist, I don't think Anfield could be regarded as anything else but that.

36:43

Anything that suggested otherwise to Morris Gross, he was a little bit more apprehensive about bringing it into the basket.

And it's certainly it's only on recent times when I've listened to an SPR talk given by Morris Gross in 1982 where he tells about a bizarre story of he was actually upstairs in one of the children's bedrooms with guideline play fire and the neighbour had come round to see him.

37:13

And as he walks down the garden path, there's Boris Gross in the living room.

So he nodded his head, knocked on the door, waited.

The door doesn't open.

So he knocks on the door again.

Nothing happens.

He knocks for third time and this time he pushes the letterbox open and sees Maurice Gross going up the stairs.

37:34

Still he doesn't come back down, so eventually, after a number of minutes, Mrs. Hodson opens the front door.

What do you want?

So I'll come to see Maurice Gross.

Are we upset him because he's ignoring me so Well, How can he ignore you?

37:50

Because he's been in the bedroom for one hour.

Guy laying play for her.

So what did this neighbour see on a Morris Gross label?

It was a double younger.

So that's the only occasion I've ever come across of a poltergeist case where we're dealing with a double younger, which is incredibly bizarre.

38:14

So when you look at individual cases such as Enfield, the parts of it were unique.

The Phantom, as I already have told you, was seen as a young girl variously dressed in Elizabethan and modern clothes.

In Enfield, the ghost took on the shape of an old woman who periodically peered out of the windows, or the lower half of a man who was seen to go up and down the stairs.

38:36

Once a small child was seen to run across the room and disappear into the fireplace.

The most vivid descriptions of phantoms are given by Mr. Berkham and his daughter Denise.

Mr. Berkham saw an old man sitting by the table dressed in the typical working clothes that were worn during the early earlier decades of this century.

38:56

His description goes into detail and he describes the vision as being absolutely solid looking.

Denise in her description of another phantom was standing at the front door 1 evening waiting to be let in after knocking on the door and while she was waiting she saw me pull the curtain aside in the down downstairs front room and look out at her.

39:18

She waited for me to open the door but when nothing happened she looked through the window of the front door and saw me going upstairs.

Wondering why I hadn't answered she again banged on the knocker.

This time she was heard upstairs and Missus Hodgson went downstairs to answer the door.

39:37

She was greeted with the words What's the matter with Mr. Gross?

Why didn't he open the door?

Denise nearly dropped in a dead face when she was told that I hadn't moved out of the upstairs bedroom for the last hour.

On reflection, On reflection on this incident, I wondered whether it was a case of the off reported doppelganger effect or whether our mysterious visitor was going around impersonating me.

40:04

Probably the most extreme phenomena in that was documented in Enfield was.

It was obviously the 200 hours of recordings that were, that were taken in the, in the latter stages of the, of, of Enfield.

And I think Enfield certainly had its fair share of objects, heavy objects that that were moved or thrown.

40:27

Where were the cases?

Not so much so.

So even now we're still learning about new things of, about Enfield because it was only sort of a few months ago.

I listened to the tape from 1982 about the SPR archives.

I'm like, this is a private talk as most girls gave.

40:45

And again, I was not aware of that, you know?

So what other secrets are waiting to be to discover in a case that's 47 years old?

Also kind of begs the question for the cases that don't get investigated, are, are these more common than than maybe we're aware of?

41:04

They just haven't been noted and investigated and identified.

And so again, it just, it raises so many questions that this unique aspect that you just mentioned is part of this historical case that again, I think most people are not aware of as you mentioned.

41:22

But it is certainly a unique, a unique, interesting phenomena that hasn't been talked about enough, I don't think.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

When the cases first come to you, the there's always a reason, because certainly nobody makes a phone call or sends the e-mail or sends the message.

41:44

The moment something, one item occurs or one or one event occurs, it's generally a process.

So they may begin to encounter unusual knocking sounds, rapping, maybe footsteps upstairs when there's no one up there.

42:02

They may have the object, maybe when the thing did that remote control move.

Or am I imagining that and they just begin to dismiss it, then the big event occurs which then triggers the reaction.

So as an investigator, you're always playing catch up.

42:21

Certainly at least a couple of months generally.

Sometimes you get it a few weeks into it and then suddenly 6-7 weeks into into the case it just stops and you then wait for the next case and you restart the process.

42:38

So next one may be 3-4 months, others maybe 12 months, other cases.

So in the the case I'm currently working, that was 5 1/2 years before it come to my attention.

Yet it never been picked up as significant that multiple groups, probably a dozen different paranormal groups got involved and the family were then faced with either disbelief because, you know, this is extraordinary phenomena.

43:09

And they often say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and sometimes they've got that evidence.

But I think they just not a criticism of the investigator, just didn't know how to deal with this.

And this is where organisations like the SPR come into their own because certainly the case, the case they've got now within a couple of weeks, I realized that, oh, this is significant.

43:39

I then contact the the SPR.

I spoke to a colleague.

We, we shared the information.

Yeah, this is looks to be quite a significant case.

And then we could we, we, we go on this incredible journey.

I never anticipated that. 22 months after, I'm still investigating it.

43:57

And in the case of Enfield, Guyline, Playfire, when he's first approached by the SPR, I said, look, we've got an investigator in MPL, we've got media attention.

We don't want this.

Can you go in there and help them?

He's shot in as quickly as possible because he said that this stuff often dries up very quickly.

44:15

He didn't expect to be there for 18 months.

So there isn't any script with it, Michelle.

And this is where it gets difficult.

They can.

It's very easy initially to misinterpret or miss label the the phenomena, but when you once it becomes implanted, certain phenomena can only be a poltergeist.

44:39

It can't be anything else.

So in the case of of Enfield, it was the heavy objects that all the family members witnessed, which then triggered the the call to the mirror and then the the SPR and then Morris Gold got involved.

44:56

And sometimes I think in case of Morris Groves, I think he was the right person at that point because he what he as a new investigator, he certainly brought the enthusiasm.

I've been doing this 37 years.

And sometimes you think what happens if I suddenly begin to lose interests, You know, is it becoming a routine?

45:17

And in some aspects it's probably does become a routine.

But certainly in case of Morris, I think he he was the right man for the job and did an incredibly good job under the guidance of guideline Play fire.

And something that you kind of touched upon just a moment ago, earlier was, you know, raising the the sheer volume of recordings that they had when it came to the the voice phenomena, which is a a huge part of the case, I would say.

45:45

And something that I think probably is, I would say that's the aspect that maybe most people are more familiar with when it comes to the case.

Do you want to just describe the nature of these voices?

You know the experiences around the voice phenomena for the family.

46:04

With hauntings and poltergeists that matter, you're generally dealing with three types of voice phenomena.

EVP, electronic voice phenomena.

You don't hear it at the time, gets on recording devices by means what you don't understand, but you see you don't hear it at the time.

46:22

You can also deal with disembodied voices sometimes mimicking that that will occur.

It certainly happened in in Henryfield.

This is where a voice will take on almost the personality of a person.

So you'd think, you know, case of Janet, she might have thought her mother was shouting her, but her mother was at the shops.

46:43

She couldn't have spoken to her.

And Boris Gross himself, her daddy's his own voice mimicked the other side of it was where in the case of Enfield again towards the latter stages is it suddenly began to speak and it was always associated just behind Janet.

47:06

So we've got Guyline Playfire together, Mrs. Hodgson together with other people in the SPR together with most Gross taping these recordings.

And this full communication takes place.

Ask a question it answers which is unique.

47:23

I have never ever come across that.

Hello.

Hello, Margaret is sleeping, I'm talking.

47:45

Margaret is sleeping.

I'm talking.

Margaret is sleeping.

I'm talking wow, wow asleep.

It's a quiet old asleep and it's talking sound a loud love of food talking.

48:11

Janet, Mark and barely always sleep and it's talking.

48:25

Hello Mr. Blightfair Mom is asleep and I'm talking I we are what they, they.

49:48

Are.

Bang on the floor.

And I'll share.

Bring Graham up here.

Yeah.

Fall asleep.

Stay on the leg.

Let's get my talking.

50:05

Mr. Graves.

Mr. Graham.

Lights gone off.

Lights gone off.

You know, I don't know.

Lights going off.

50:24

Come on.

You that chemical smash your window?

Yeah, bang on the wall.

That time gone.

Alright, go on.

Just for planet Mark.

50:49

Mr. Graves.

Mr. Graves.

Mr. Grouse.

Mr. Grouse.

Quick, Mr. Grouse.

51:06

Oh well, something.

I was in this.

Oh my God, Mother.

Told.

Marvin, she was not on this.

Margaret what she's?

Not on this.

I have been in properties in another poltergeist chest of dealing with some years ago where we're dealing with wrapping.

51:30

So you'd ask a question, are you a man?

Give me two wraps, 2 wraps for now and you get the the two taps or the one tap.

You generally find whether it works for a mathematical formula.

So the answers would generally come 8 seconds, 10 seconds, 5 seconds or whatever.

51:50

All the answers seemed to be perfectly timed.

Enfield was unique because this thing would talk and took the personality on of Bill Wilkinson, a guy that had genuinely died in Enfield on a chart through brain hemorrhage.

52:09

So he seemed to be answering as Bill now when the recordings were, because over 200 hours of the recordings were taken by Morris Gross.

When they went to see the son of Bill Wilkinson, the son said that he's definitely my father talking.

52:32

How much of that is accurate?

Morris Gross is adamant that's what his son said.

I don't believe Morris Gross, but you know, this is a typically elderly man with a, a strong London accent.

He could be, was it his father or not.

52:49

So in a way, what were we dealing with?

Were we dealing with a spirit of Bill or we were dealing with the poltergeist?

It's very capable of duplicating in either voices.

53:05

If if he can duplicate a a double anchor of Maurice Gross, it can certainly begin to mimic voices.

So I am generally open minded.

I'm not sure where they dealing with the spirit of Bill Wilkinson or where they're dealing with the poltergeist is mimicking and taking on the personality of Bill Wilkinson.

53:33

The tapes themselves were donated to the SPR some years ago and they were digitalised by Doctor Mervyn William for the SPR.

So the belief was that the these are all reel to reel recordings, that the tapes themselves would deteriorate and would lose that the evidence of the digitised.

53:59

There's an interesting book called The Enfield Tapes by Doctor William and it's fascinating and there are numerous tapes that have been released.

I've got a number of them where you listen to this voice and you have to disclude that this is hoax because the SPR room were there present when they occurred.

54:20

Morris Gross together with Guy Lane, Playfire.

You've got to accept it as right that these guys are not going to hoax these voices.

So the other ideas then was, was it Janet being a ventriloquist?

That was checked out.

But what they generally came up with was the fact that the voices appeared to be behind her, not coming through the normal vocal passage.

54:43

Plus he put water in her mouth on one occasion to prove to some sceptics that she was not responsible for these.

And as Morris Gross pointed out himself, for anyone to keep that that voice up for that period of time would have destroyed the vocal cords.

55:00

When you listen to them, they are quite frightening.

Michelle, you know.

Have you heard only the tapes yourself?

I have and I think because of the, the quality and because of the, the kind of the, the wording and, and the things that come through, for those that are sceptical, it's easy to reach for that explanation of, well, this is just too good to be true.

55:24

It has to be fake.

But for me, I think the phenomena is just, it's, it's something else.

It really is something else.

Yeah, I, I, I totally agree.

It's, I generally go with sceptics, with some avenues of discussion with them.

55:43

The disbelievers I generally disclude.

I don't think they really should.

I need to have an opinion because if you, if you completely, utterly, 100% disbelieve in the paranormal or the possibility of the paranormal, there's no point in having an opinion because I'm not going to change your mindset.

56:00

There are some sceptics and certainly the SPR is not sure to have sceptical, you know, it's Kieran O'Keefe and others that are within the SPR and often you need a degree of scepticism.

But where people then begin to suggest the the, the honesty of the investigators on the ground.

56:22

Morris Gross went on to be a spontaneous case committee member and a valued member of the SPR for absolutely decades.

Guy Lane Playfair was always been an active member of the SPR and again went on for decades later.

These people have no reason to invent this because Morris Gross himself was could be sceptical.

56:46

He tried every possible Ave. to try and find out a rational explanation.

In the case of the bill tapes, he brought in the famous ventriloquist.

Yeah, he was brought in and attended and he gave him an opinion so they would go out and try to seek professional opinions.

57:08

He asked for us to put Janet Hudson into hospital for weeks.

I have a series of checks and all that.

So they tried everything to try and find a rational explanation.

But at the end of the day, what we've got left, 200 hours of the what I call the Bill tapes, the Enfield tapes of this extraordinary discussion that was taking place with knowledge that certainly in the case of Janet Hudson, if she, you know, unless she's the world's best ventriloquist, would never have known.

57:40

In a lot of the information provided by the Build tapes, they're unable to go to the London archives and find things like death certificates and medical records, which is easier in today's climate because the Internet, but not in 1977.

This was hard, hard evidence, research to find where these answers are.

57:59

So I'm absolutely convinced that the recordings are genuine.

I don't doubt the honesty of both Guy Lane, Playfair and most chords and others were in attendance when the tapes were recorded because there's 200 hours of them.

58:17

The only thing I need to rationalize in my own nerd is was it the poltergeist taking over a the personality of Bill Wilkins or were they dealing with the genuine spirit of Bill Wilkins?

58:35

I don't know.

It can be argued either way.

But as far as the genuineness of the tapes, no doubt you know, I've listened to them.

I've spoken to people that were who were present.

Most of them have passed on since they were dealing with something quite genuine.

58:52

So as far as those tapes are concerned, if anyone has a further interest with them, they are available by going to the SPR if you remember, and they will make certain tapes of them available to you.

They won't be one day.

We may be in a position where the SPL will release them.

59:11

But if we're talking 200 hours, we're talking possibly 100 CTS worth of albums here.

But the incredible lesson, but the book is out by Doctor William is is essential reader.

59:26

And if you have an interest in that?

And one of the things that you touched upon, I think is really relevant as, as information to kind of hit home on, which is if this was evidence that was just taken so easily at face value, then all the effort that went into trying to debunk it, to find a rational explanation, to seek out, you know, voice experts to, to have them look at what was happening, to have them analyse what was happening and give their opinion.

59:55

None of that would have been done.

But yet they, all of these efforts were made to try and understand this phenomena.

And at the end of it, they had no explanation.

And again, I think that is really quite significant that this wasn't just taken as a, you know, a tick that this is something that is easily this.

1:00:15

They went through all of these different things first at great lengths.

And I think that is, I think that's significant to be aware of.

After our test with the laryngograph, Professor Forsen reported that the voice was not produced by the larynx but by the forced vocal fold.

1:00:35

The hospital speech therapist called in on the case also reported that such a voice could not be sustained, sustained in the manner that she heard it without a damage to the throat.

No damage to the voice or throat was apparent despite long periods of speech.

1:00:53

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Mentioning the the medical profession got involved with the voices because when you hear them, you've got this very rough talking, that type of voice.

Janet is on the video, not moving her mouth.

1:01:11

So if she some farmer world's best ventriloquist, what the voice specialist said, for her to do that within 10 minutes would have destroyed a voice botch could never have kept that old fire as it's impossible.

So they can write off any sort of ventriloquist theory that they often throw out.

1:01:33

Yeah, there were genuine recordings.

And I think we just simply got to accept these were genuine recording and every type of research who was done as far as attempting not debunking to trying to find a rough explanation for that was never found.

1:01:50

Anything we left with these records which we can't explain.

And I think this is where the only option that's left for a number of people is the hoaxed.

Well, we're going back to the beginning where the voices first started to occur when Morris Gross got deeply suspicious.

1:02:11

What are we dealing with it?

And likewise with guideline paper.

But there was never any rational explanation.

Had to have been, they would have found it.

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1:02:39

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1:05:59

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1:06:24

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Let us venture forth, for the journey into the unknown has only just begun.

1:06:50

The Enfield case, as you no doubt know has been the subject of much debate and discussion and involved a family of a mother and four children together with various relations and the Hornsey case was centred on a modern flat in a newly constructed complex belonging to a couple in their mid 30s with no children.

1:07:09

The Hornsey case was noted for the outbreak of frequent fires that took place during the fireman strike, yet despite this the fireman would call to the flat 6 times and the fire prevention officer for London could find no logical explanation for the fires he observed.

1:07:25

The fire I mentioned in Enfield took place whilst I was in the house with the family and to my knowledge could not have been caused by any other people present at the time.

One of the fires that took place in Enfield was identical in practically every respect to a fire that took place in the Hornsby flat shortly before.

1:07:46

A partially burnt box of matches was found among the contents of a drawer that had caught fire.

In each case and in both boxes of matches.

The matches themselves were intact, despite the fact that both boxes were very badly burnt.

Right now, this, the first tape I'll play you, is the interview with the fire officers.

1:08:05

Not terribly exciting, but I want you to listen carefully to how they talk about it.

Despite 1A leading question at the end, which I must be forgiven for, but it's rather interesting to listen to.

It doesn't take too long, sorry. 71 Beechcroft.

1:08:26

Elthorne Rd.

They've had another fire here and I have the fire officer here who's going to kind.

Of give me a report on the.

Fire.

Would you like to just give me that?

This is a piece of my voice.

The Holloway Station.

1:08:44

Well, this is about the 6th fire they've had in this flat.

None of them have any apparent causes.

Normally, you know someone's maliciously said it's sort of a bigger place, but these are all small places.

1:09:04

There's no wiring involved, no feet.

There's no explanation at all for it Yeah, but I'm I'm the 3rd 3rd watcher 3 watches that have been to this incident.

1:09:22

We went to early as a day where there's no there's no way the fire could go from one thing to another.

Is there?

Is there any indication of how the fire might have been started?

No, no, I'm not saying I mean this bed spreads here.

1:09:39

I mean it's always decent start on the top, but how it's so how it's spread like that, I don't know.

On your little spectre expected to burn a bit deeper.

It's a surface burn.

The surface.

The burn looks as if it's I've gone through the cover and threw one blanket down to the sheet or just the cover, I think.

1:10:02

Yes, it's called the first sheet.

It's just the bedspread really.

The bedspread really, it's a hole.

Yeah, it's about square foot.

And this sheet of the banking, the the actual burn is about two foot square as we patch a little bit over on the left hand side of the bed, looking from on the right hand side of the bed, looking from the bottom of the bed.

1:10:29

And there's a fire on the dressing table.

Now what sort of fire does that be?

Well, it's of course that's him, but I'm not sure quite what this was.

It looks like a plastic flower holder.

Plastic flower holder.

There's mirrors, a plastic mirror, but as far as you're you're, you're concerned, it doesn't look like a malicious fire tour.

1:10:59

And would this be in in line with the other files we've had here?

Yes, yes, yes.

We've had a number of files now.

We've had two lost lines.

We've had two, one in the the clothes closet in the hall, which is just two or three orsons of clothings.

1:11:15

Berbs.

Did you come?

I came last night.

They called me out of last 12 last night.

Well that's fine.

Thank you for that interview.

I'm just talking to another fireman and you are.

Could you give your name please?

1:11:32

My name is Fireman Tony Baker and I'm attached to C30 Holloway which is in Hornsby Rd.

I mean just seen the bed and the fire as it was.

I would say in my 6 years of experience I've never quite seen anything like it.

1:11:48

For it to be just superficial burning and no more.

Normally a fire in a big it sinks a particular hotspot that goes right the way through and never ever remains on the surface like this.

So in your opinion, the explanation that I suggested that it being a psychic phenomena, would you be inclined to think that that is possibly true, certainly under seeing the type of burning and also the other situations?

1:12:22

That are viral.

Right, thank you very much indeed.

But I think that was very good.

People asked for for very good evidence.

Well, there's an evidence of experts because the first man was talking was the chief fire prevention officer for the whole of London.

Now from fire we go to water, but first we had a combination of both.

1:12:43

This took place exclusively in the in Enfield and was witnessed quite clearly by the investigators and the people involved.

At 810 we had a a fire in the kitchen drawer of the Gap by the Gasto, the right hand drawer facing the Gasto.

1:13:08

A few things in the drawer, such as dish cloth, an oven, gloves, paper handwich.

I don't need your help.

The help is the voice in the background, by the way, which you'll hear later on.

1:13:24

Paper handwiches, a box of matches, fewer odds and ends, and the matches themselves didn't catch far.

The box of barely scorched the Mr. Berkham found on the fire.

1:13:40

He looked underneath there, so there's a lot of smoke underneath of the drawer in the cupboard.

And then he discovered it was in the drawer.

We took the stuff out, put the smoldering.

It was smoldering.

1:13:56

Actually, no flames, it was smoldering.

We put them out and previously there have been some water phenomena on the.

There was some water on the floor by the by the toilet and after the fire episode there was a water on the floor again.

1:14:16

Margaret was the one who found the fire in the drawer but we had smelt burning oh quite a long while before that but I hadn't taken much notice of the smell.

It wasn't very strong but I can make a few marks I will.

1:14:32

I can confirm everything Mr. Ross has just said, but there's one thing he has forgot to mention is in the drawer there was water, which was quite a bit of quite a bit of water.

But I'll confirm everything that Mister Grass has said.

1:14:48

There was also one other thing, the strip of aluminium that was bent in the spiral, similar to the effects that David Robertson gets with his metal benders.

That was in the dryer.

And according to Missus Hudson, it wasn't there before.

1:15:07

And one of the other phenomena that is linked with Enfield, but maybe not so well known about is instances of fire phenomena, fire starting such as the fire in the kitchen drawer.

Do you want to kind of just kind of explain the significance of of these types of occurrences?

1:15:26

The fire pult is the Kali is relatively rare in the UK the the commonplace Africa India, I'd say as high as 80% of them catered contain elements of fire.

A lot of people suggested over the help countries.

1:15:44

The only other case of significance in recent times is the Keetlander Seattle WA Bothell Hull Bothell house where the Bible is spontaneously Catching Fire.

In the case of Enfield where the inside of the drawers.

1:16:03

It only happened in a couple of occasions, but I think the I, the, the sceptical was say the box of the matches that were there.

They also ignited something strange to happen and that's the reason why why the fight with fires started a real difficult one for them to resolve.

1:16:25

This one, they couldn't come up with a rational explanation.

But as I say, spontaneous fires are incredibly rare, but it's not unprecedented.

The the Gloucester case, it was done in the 1982.

1:16:42

It was actually subject to the the Cook report because they were blaming close by military airfields where a ceramic cup of all things erupted into flames.

So if you imagine that a ceramic cup, it's not even combustible, yet it apparently ignited.

1:17:05

So they were never able to pinpoint what the source of the fire was or where it actually come from.

Those that we do know about, in the case of Seattle, the Bible seemed to ignite from within the the the middle of the pages and burst outwards rather than outside in what should generally happen if he was a set fire to a book.

1:17:30

So on Enfield, it's a strange one, but it's only a couple of occasions.

You see Michelle, when it when it happen, when you've got just a couple small numbers, it does leave you open to is there a rational explanation here for this?

I, I can't think of one because, you know, it happened to be that there were boxes and matches in the drawers.

1:17:52

So I don't know.

But I do think it's interesting like you mentioned that there are fewer examples of this within the UK.

There are examples of them, but fewer of them certainly.

But it is interesting again that you see instances of possible fire phenomena within Enfield, something that we don't necessarily always associate with poltergeist cases.

1:18:20

Certainly here in the UK.

It's not in kind of our consciousness because it's it doesn't happen as frequently.

Yeah, I think if we had high numbers of spontaneous fires with Poltergeist skater, I think we'd have a problem when you I've done research on the indication, certainly in South Africa, the with the German dealing here with wooden structures with generally straw roofs.

1:18:50

So they would ignite and they would go up in flames.

And when I begin to theorise it, that you look at those cases, the people generally coming from poor backgrounds with very limited personal possessions.

1:19:05

So they wouldn't have be a stream of electronic devices, sofas, fancy tables and chairs.

So if a poltergeist comes visiting, it's going to disrupt your life.

And I think where you're dealing with somewhere like in Africa or or in case an Indian ones, there's very little in there for them to do.

1:19:27

So they can't if it's not even way to the mains, they can't really do anything.

Electronic devices.

And that's about the only explanation you've got.

In the case of Seattle, it was bizarre that it was only it wasn't just Bibles either.

1:19:45

In the case of Seattle, the other picture, the indicted the the smoke aligns went off fortunately and the Fire Brigades brigade were called by a neighbour, then Keith Lynn to come later and saw the damage.

By that time the the fire brigade had moved in.

1:20:02

That's probably one of the most frightening aspects of of a poltergeist of, you know, if we look at its power, setting fire to objects was probably quite simple for it to do.

But thankfully we don't have many of them because I think we would have a problem.

1:20:22

You know, I have looked at the one of the strangest and most disturbing phenomena even now we haven't got an answer for It's spontaneous human combustion.

We don't know why a human body can suddenly just ignite itself.

1:20:41

We've had some strange theories put about the Wick effect and so on, but it's not a done deal about any stretch.

So can it set fire?

I see no reason why it can't.

It just chooses on the vast majority cases not to, thankfully.

I mean, I can only think of, I think it's the Hornsey case where they had spontaneous fire where the, the top of the bed set alight and they, I'm pretty sure they spoke with the the chief fire engineer who said it's just, it's unfathomable how this fire didn't spread to the rest of the bed itself.

1:21:21

It literally just was contained on the surface of the bed.

This is where I began to look at the spontaneous humid combustion of like because what you got is fire contained to a small area and the rest, but you may get some smoke damage.

1:21:37

You get a bed that was suddenly just ignite and obviously we know what we're going to, but it would be just be contained to the object.

Chairs would set fire spontaneously and not affect the rest of it.

So it seemed to be very contained into a Pacific area and it's quite a small area.

1:21:59

It makes it quite unique to and to stand out.

It makes you wonder because that would be a a very strange insurance claim farm to write, wouldn't it?

Have you any reasons why your your, your bed set fire?

1:22:14

Yeah, the poltergeists did it, so who knows, but I think we're just thankful we don't get that many cases of spontaneous fires.

So.

And I think one of the other kind of stranger phenomena that again isn't as well known is the the the water phenomena that again was experienced at Enfield.

1:22:37

Water appeared in several places in the Enfield House, but particularly in the kitchen area.

Many times various people saw water appearing as if it was seeping out from the base of the wall or coming up through the floor.

At least three times it took on the shape of a dwarf like figure which we found very difficult to replicate.

1:22:57

At one time we bottled some of the liquid found in the middle of the kitchen floor and sent it to the North Middle Hospital for an analysis.

We thought this liquid could have been made by one of the children urinating on the floor, although I must qualify this by saying that we had no particular reason to think that they would have done such a thing.

1:23:18

The next day when we rang the analyst for the result, he greeted us with a couple of invectives and a demand to know whether it was some sort of a joke.

He had been under the impression he was analysing a specimen taken from a human, but was quite taken aback to find that they'd come from an animal, probably a catch.

1:23:37

The result may not have pleased the analyst, but it certainly gave us something to think about.

For there were no, there was no animal in the house.

Yeah, the waterfall when it arrives on the floor it is is a difficult 1 to investigate because there may be countless rational explanations why that would occur.

1:24:00

Someone Thorin watch on a cup where you've got water coming from ceilings, for example, you know your first thing you're going to do is I've got a water pipe that's broken always of the water tank found a leak.

1:24:16

In case of the Rochdale poltergeist, they had water seeping through the doors.

So you've got a normal kitchen door with weep water.

They'd come through the to the wall on recent times, the case of money at the moment, over the last couple of weeks, they're now experiencing water in just in containing the living room of the wall, the ceiling and the floor.

1:24:44

Rochdale, I think we were lucky when Steve Piereira, the investigator the π psychologist associated with Rochelle Poltergeist, when he sent the sample away because when he actually witnessed this, the what he described is that it was a prefabricated building from the 1950s, a single Storey similar to a bungalow really.

1:25:05

It didn't have any form of water tank.

The water come directly from the mains.

So there's no water source above the ceilings.

The reason why the council got suspicious and said Steve Mayer in there.

Now when he witnessed this, he said the the other way can describe it is that the ceiling was raining and what he was able to do is take a sample of the water.

1:25:28

He then got it analysed by Northwest Water Authority and they said that the water itself couldn't was not drinkable.

So when they compared it like for like to the normal tap water, they also sent a sample which considered to be normal.

1:25:44

This water that the suspected was done by the poltergeist had been subjected to heavy duty electrical charging.

Whether it changed the actual structure of the water itself, it's that it was undrunkable early.

1:26:00

It's not something that they've ever encountered before.

So that gave us a little bit of a clue as to what it is that we're dealing with the water.

Because obviously if a ceiling is water and there's nothing above it, it's not raining, there's no water tank, there's no pipe work, Where is the water coming from?

1:26:24

Is it just materialisation from somewhere?

And if it is, I think Steve Mayer has gone a long way to prove that in fact, that it seems to have been subjected to heavy duty electrical charge.

Highly destructive, though.

So how would you say things like the the fire and the water phenomena contribute to the overall credibility the mystery of the Enfield haunting?

1:26:49

When you start to write up a sort of shopping list for Enfield, there's not much that they didn't have there.

Enfield will always stand out for the the unusual phenomena, particularly the Bill Wilkins tapes to the 200 hours of the tapes.

1:27:10

And I think when you look at an 18 month period, you may get a week of a couple of days where you've got a fire that happened in the kitchen drawer, then a few days later another fire, then nothing.

Then it you'll, you'll have problems with water, puddles of water in the in the living room or, or the kitchen that disappears and it's replaced by something else.

1:27:32

So it seemed to have this ability to multitask and phenomena just comes and goes, Michelle, which makes it incredibly difficult to track it.

Enfield was never subjected to any wall writings, for example.

1:27:49

Other cases have done, they've had multiple different symbols and, and signs that are written on wallpaper, sometimes engraved onto doors and so on.

They didn't have any EVP whatsoever in, in, in Enfield.

1:28:05

They didn't have much disembody sounds, a couple of mimics, but most of the voice phenomena with MPL was associated to the end of the case with the the Bill Wilkins tapes.

Enfield also gave us a clue as far as the ability to look into the future or premonition.

1:28:26

And what I mean by that.

Is it one of the tapes?

It's early hours of the morning, probably 1:30 more morning and Maurice Gross is everyone's tired and they've had them rapping and knocks it occurring.

And just before he gets halfway through his sentence where he's going to say you're just having fun with me.

1:28:48

And just before he ends the sentence, a bot comes flying across the room and hits him on top of the head.

Now when Moses goes analyse this later, he was saying, oh, Moses, if it knows it advance what you're going to be doing or what you're going to be saying.

1:29:08

And I experienced that last year, a case of run out at the time where I was actually speaking to a colleague of mine, Karen Farrell over a particular case and giving him his weekly update.

And I actually said to him that this particular house at this point was having problems with TV behaviour.

1:29:26

So saying like, OK, Karen, it's been fairly quiet over the last five or six days, No reports whatsoever.

Beep.

I hear a beep over the the TV.

I then look at my mobile and there's a message from the householder saying TV just gone up to full volume that was sent before I I completed that sentence.

1:29:48

Michelle.

So is this a pure coincidence that this occurred exactly that point in time, or is there something else that's going on, occurring here in the background that takes us into a bit of a different direction, if that makes sense?

1:30:08

Yeah, it just brings up other questions, doesn't it, as to, again, it just feels like too much of A coincidence for those things to occur at the same time.

And the fact that this is something that was also experienced in Enfield, again, just as another intriguing mystery, another intriguing aspect to the case, this possibility of this greater awareness of knowing what is going to happen, like you mentioned, things that are coming that other people's conversations having this awareness, this intelligence is really rather striking.

1:30:46

So what types of electrical failures were regularly reported during the Enfield haunting?

Not a great deal.

I think a lot of that is just the fact that the only thing that he had was a radio and ATV.

But they did have problems with cameras and batteries.

1:31:05

In a modern day context, electrical interference is significant the because houses are full electronic devices.

So and I think this may go somewhere by explaining the reason why Enfield had other phenomena occurring because it's got nothing else to play around with.

1:31:23

So they certainly had Tele TV's that will switch on, switch off, change channels, which often can be say, well, is that down to a fault of the of the TV.

The radio sometimes would change channels.

They had one of these big old dials with the front of it, but not an awful lot lights a cup of take occasions when they add lights flashing all up, but that's about it.

1:31:48

It's just very spontaneous a couple of atoms as we've happened with other cases.

You get it for maybe just a couple of times, a couple of days of something will will play.

So she's a light flashing on and off.

Then the problem just disappears and you you'll have to think, well, what was all about?

1:32:05

Then it moves on to something else.

It's almost like a child with a new toy box type of thing.

If Enfield happened now, we'd probably see a lot more occurrence of electrical interference because it's the most common one that occurs.

1:32:26

And I think when sometimes you've got to be careful, Michelle when you because often the the experience that will blame everything on the poltergeist, you get blamed for everything.

Now if the television suddenly just changed channels or it went to full volume is a one off once in six months, you could probably just say that that's just down to a bit of a battery problem or someone next door neighbour with remote control or that type of thing.

1:32:56

But when it happens about 5 or 600 times in a space of about 8 months, that's different territory.

And that's certainly in the case of some of the of the more modern day poltergeist.

It's important to note, isn't it just that we are dealing with a case here that did happen in the 1970s.

1:33:16

And so the the kind of exposure that the family had is very different to the exposure that we have now in, in everyday life.

And so I think it is significant that they did have some occurrences of electrical failure.

And it would be intriguing, like you said, what would happen if, you know, if this was a case being investigated today, would it be something that would be more, even more apparent than it was back then?

1:33:42

Is is a kind of, I think an important aspect to think, you know, just to kind of be aware of.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

Because when you look at, because I, I was working cases and I remember this period very well.

1:33:58

When the cases first came across your table, you looked at them.

It, it was generally the most common room that these things occurred.

Well, the two common rooms were living room and the kitchen.

You can look at, I think, well, that's where most people would spend their time.

1:34:17

But it's also the two places where the vast majority of electronic devices energy users, and therefore you've got the radiation with that as well.

Very rarely you get any problems with bedrooms suddenly 1516 years ago where it's commonplace now for children to have computers, laptops, tablet, mobile phones, TV's, Xboxes, all the works in a bedroom.

1:34:51

So what I suddenly then began to experience is the report being made of problem with bedrooms.

So that did certainly give us clues as to what it is that we're dealing about.

1:35:06

You know, because what you seem to have need for any phenomena to occur, particularly with the poltergeist is 1 is the human victim, 2 is the location.

Take one of them out of it, it doesn't happen.

1:35:24

So if you take people out of a property, the phenomena stops.

If you don't have a property, you haven't got a phenomena to occur anyway.

So certainly in the case of energy, we must be dealing with some form of hybrid energy is able to use because I'm quite sure we're like minded that I don't believe that I can move solid matter on.

1:35:47

Just thought my thoughts alone.

There has to be some degree of energy transfer for this to occur.

And if it is, where do I get that energy from?

Is that associated to the rooms where energy is available such as kitchens and bathrooms?

1:36:07

Sorry kitchens and living rooms?

Or is it something completely we we don't understand yet?

That, but certainly when I put properties into lockdown, shut the mains off where you've got nothing really whatsoever phenomena stops.

1:36:25

So there has to be a correlation between the available energy and the phenomena that then occurs later.

Hello.

Yeah.

Hello.

Goodbye.

How he did that.

Now you're going to tell me how you how you knocked that seti over.

1:36:41

Come on, tell me how you knocked it out.

Goodbye that button.

You what?

By the bottom, yes.

Underneath.

Underneath it, yes.

What did you do then?

What did you do?

Make Janet come in the room first.

1:36:58

Why did you make?

Why did you have to make Janet come in the room first?

So.

She gets the blame.

So she gets the blame, Yes.

Could you do it if if Margaret came in the room first?

Margaret.

Or, or if Mrs. Hodgson came in the room first, could you do it then?

No, she's too old.

1:37:14

She's too old.

Could you do it if I came in the room first?

No.

Well, what's age got to do with it?

What?

What difference does it make?

Take energy from young people, not oh, fun.

Oh, you only take energy?

Yes.

Why can't you take energy from old people?

1:37:30

I use it on the day.

Pardon.

I use it all.

Oh, old people use more energy during the day and do young people stir it up then?

Yes.

How do you take their energy?

Yeah, suck.

Taking my electric shots.

1:37:48

Do.

You take electrical energy then.

Yes, I can.

If you can.

I can take.

You can take electrical if you don't take the energy.

Could you tip the settee up if you didn't take the energy?

No, no, I couldn't.

1:38:03

You could possible.

Impossible.

Yes, you always have to use energy from people.

Yes.

Can't you take energy from anything else?

No.

You can't.

No.

What else can you do with energy?

1:38:19

Tip the chairs over, pull the plugs out.

Yeah, but.

You can do other things prices.

Put books through the window I.

Put books through the window.

Who put the books through the window?

I did.

You did.

I took a shortcut and put it through it.

1:38:34

I.

See.

How would you, if I'd have said to you, put that book through the window without breaking the window, how would you have done it?

I put the window on phone.

Sorry, I opened the window and thrown you out.

You would have opened the window and thrown it out.

1:38:51

The biggest window found them.

Yeah, but could you have thrown it through the glass itself without breaking the glass?

Yes.

How would you do that then?

You would serialize it one night, didn't.

You do, you materialize it.

Yes.

How do you do that then?

1:39:09

I don't know, but I don't stomach, don't I?

Don't know how you do it.

No, a gift.

It's a gift, is it?

Well, surely you should know how to do it, Tiger.

So we've kind of briefly touched upon some of the examples of apples that were reported during the Enfield haunting.

1:39:38

Do you want to just kind of go into that a little bit more detail because there are some really intriguing examples of apples and and teleportations, you know, what was involved here in terms of this type of phenomena that was experienced?

Disappearing objects you know from a panel that you call them a poor so deport so they when they arrive back are quite common.

1:40:02

You often when you speak to a client initially.

You have a series of test questions you'll you'll give them and one of them have you come across an object that seems to disappear and never been either seen again or found in a completely different place?

1:40:18

And the answer is often that is the case.

So what we're So what actually happens to the object?

It simply seems to just simply disappear then dematerialise later is some other point, sometimes weeks after an event.

1:40:42

Mary Rose Barrington, ex SPR president actually turned the the label jot just one of those things that occurs and I think if you asked anyone on the street.

1:40:59

Have you had an object that suddenly just simply disappeared and you knew you put it there then suddenly it's been found somewhere you didn't expect it and you can rule out any other rational explanation someone else doing it.

The answer is often yes.

1:41:15

Now in the case of Enfield, the only genuine report where if we can say this definitely did happen was a book that I mentioned earlier with Guy Lane play for what Enfield had was heavy objects movement, 5 drawers, solid old set of drawers in the bedroom, the fireplace.

1:41:39

We've had the cushion, we've had boxes, teapot cups, other objects.

Lego bricks seem to be manifest.

The I suppose when you look at Enfield, we can probably say the Lego bricks were genuine a ports because what the Daily Mirror reporter said was that when they started to get thrown around, he suspected the children were responsible.

1:42:02

So he backed himself right in a corner until we had full view of the living room area.

And he said the local brick just seemed to come out at mid age.

It seemed to materialize and bang, come at you.

He in one occasion did strike, but generally it would move around the human target.

1:42:24

But it's the heavy objects.

We definitely did occur.

That was unusual because, you know, Guy Lane paper always said the world record for weightlifting for poltergeist was in Brazil, which is a Land Rover Discovery that moved 30 foot a tonne and a half.

1:42:44

So if it can move that other objects should be bitter child's play.

But they vary from case to case.

That's the problem.

You know, some some cases the objects just disappear never to be seen again.

Then sometimes weeks after reappear.

1:43:00

The case we run in now object disappeared in out of the kitchen and was fined in the passenger seat of the householder's car.

Where does this object go?

These in a quite a strange thinking because in the case of Rochdale they had a object sorry case.

1:43:23

It wasn't Rochdale, it was another case in Plymouth and it was a poltergeist that was handled by Steve Murrah and it went to they made arrangements to see the elderly lady and she when she spoke to me before she arrived, she said look how many of you come?

1:43:39

He said, well there's three of us, OK, no problem at all.

So when she arrived, she's actually specifically gone out and bought 4 beakers.

She was an elderly lady.

Jeremy used China cups and sauces and because she's got investigators she thought I'll buy, I'll buy 4 speakers for them.

1:43:56

So the other cup of tea, the lady says OK, I'm just going, what's the cup?

So put the kettle on again, sits down with him a few minutes, goes back into the kitchen, then comes back and says one of the cups he's disappeared.

Now when he monitored this, Steve Mayer maintains that 96 minutes elapsed before the cup suddenly reappeared.

1:44:19

When they sent the four cups off to some, it's a stoke on trance into Staffordshire that that where the cuts were made.

What they said is that three of the cops were perfect, no problems at all.

But the other cop, the suspect cop, there's no way it would have survived a a firing.

1:44:41

The structure, the internal touch of the clay was radically different and not how they would expect it to have been.

So that takes you into uncomfortable territory because if we're dealing with an report, the general opinion was the report would occur, it'd disappear, then we'll return intact.

1:45:06

Well, what happens if it comes back, but it's not completely perfect?

It is.

It's structure is some way different, which takes you into an uncomfortable territory and you when you think if that if that's if I can abort a heavy object and you know, take it away for a couple of hours or a couple of weeks before returning it, what's going to happen to a human body if the same applied?

1:45:38

I know we're moving a bit into the fantasy with this one, but it does leave, you know, comfortable situation where you think, well, the poor must somehow the materialisation must take place, the materialisation back later, but it looks to be that it's not put back in exactly the same condition as it was when it first disappeared.

1:45:59

But it's an interesting point that you raised because there was there was also the the the strange occurrence reported at Enfield of Janet mysteriously disappearing through the adjacent wall and the book that was, you know, for in the children's bedroom, then appearing in the bedroom in the the room next door.

1:46:20

So again, you've got all these kind of similar kind of strange occurrences that kind of delve into precisely what you were just referring to there.

That again, I'm just not sure is particularly well known in terms of of that being out there.

But again, it's just part of the story of Enfield, isn't it?

1:46:38

The mystery around all these very misprint occurrences.

Yeah, as far as the port's concerned, you could actually do a podcast and just on on this phenomena alone, disappearing objects, I've got an absolute arsenal of cases that are absolutely bizarre, from disappearing bananas to car keys that disappeared to two years and reappeared a property where where the lady had moved to with no rational explanation.

1:47:07

And I know about them because it's disturbed them so much that they had to tell somebody to see if they're, you know, there's something really strange with the, with the applause because, you know, we, we've had it ourselves, investigators, you know, we've had a couple objects that have disappeared and, and reappeared.

1:47:29

And it leaves you in a comfortable position because when the investigator becomes experienced and Michelle, you see it from a different angle.

So in the case of something that happened to me last year, I came away, I had got great problems in in speaking about this particular event because people just simply not going to believe me.

1:47:49

I know what I experienced and I know it was true, but convincing others is a challenge.

And so I do have empathy with people that may be listening to this podcast that may have experienced something.

1:48:04

One of their main problems they have to face has been being believed.

It's a particular problem, you know it's.

It's how it is, unfortunately.

Guyline Playfair and Maurice Gross both spoke about that with regards to how they felt being the experience of themselves within Enfield that, you know, they had things that they had to explain that they'd experienced.

1:48:31

And they were in also that same position.

And they, they kind of echo exactly what you just, you just said yourself.

It's, it's a different position to be in.

It's a difficult position to be in.

Yeah, because both of them handle the skepticism differently.

Guyline Playfire didn't take up, didn't take presses when it came to skeptic skeptics, the hardcore disbelieving skeptics, he had no tolerance for them at all.

1:48:57

Bobis Croft handled it slightly differently.

And what he actually put down with the challenge of the what was in 1000 LB in today's money is probably 5000 lbs.

I'm going to give you a piece of evidence.

You proved to me that that's been hoax.

1:49:13

And I will give you this money.

That money is still waiting to be claimed.

That's how Maurice Gross dealt with it.

And I think when you've been in investigating for some years, I'm in my 37th year, I'll become a bit of a guy laying play fire where I've become I'm nobody's more open minded and skeptical me when I'm being told something is extraordinary.

1:49:38

I'd like to to see the evidence.

But a lot of stuff that we deal with, we have to excite the person is telling you an extraordinary story.

Who am I to disbelieve them?

I can't tell you all you you hopes that you're telling me lies.

1:49:53

Whatever.

I haven't got that right because it seems to be in a paranormal perspective, it seems to have a much higher threshold than what we would do in a criminal Crown Court.

You know, if you've got 5 witnesses saying this is what we've experienced, all 12 jurors will probably believe them.

1:50:15

Yet somehow in a paranormal, well, the threshold is much higher.

Is a such a thing as is 100% paranormal?

I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure how we could capture that because somebody will say it's a light reflection and it's hoaxed because of technology and so on and so forth.

1:50:37

It's a continuous battle that you that you have so, and particularly when you've experienced it yourself.

We, we spoke about this before.

You've experienced phenomena soul of high.

We're very careful who ought to speak to about it.

But at the end of the day, we know what we've experienced is true.

1:50:55

You know that that's and that's really what it comes to the day.

I think that's what's important.

So what would you say has been the the last game pact of the Enfield case in terms of the field of paranormal research?

When you look on reflection of of Enfield, it was really the first case that became a major sensation with the Daily Mirror front page.

1:51:20

It went on for a long, long time, multiple TV programmes, radio, so that took the SPR and investigators into charity they're not accustomed to.

From my side, I've learnt the lessons of that and don't repeat it.

1:51:36

I Jemma run OK completely out of the public domain.

I don't want it in the public domain.

Do everything I can to avoid it.

It also gave us the chances to interpret on our reinterpret phenomena.

1:51:53

MPL gave us a series of theories, such as the theory of the human agent associated with adolescent teenagers, particularly reaching puberty.

We can now disclude that.

It also was one of the most widely and well investigated cases on record.

1:52:16

We've got a vast amount of evidence to look through and we learn from a great deal from it.

It's not been without its sketchism of controversy.

I think it is.

That applies to every case to be honest.

But it did have elements of high end witnesses there, at least two police officers, multiple members from the SPR, the media.

1:52:43

OK, the media, but they're a little bit more transparent than probably are today because they're looking to build it up into something.

But generally the statements themselves are incredibly compelling.

It's certainly you would get anonymous virtue, a court I think without question.

1:53:05

Moving on from it, we're able to be ready for other cases that come calling because a couple of decades before there was a Battersea, I think that was in 19571958 at Battersea, which is a little bit of a similar case, but not widely known or spoken about.

1:53:25

Enfield dynamics change obviously because the of the media intrusion.

It's both a challenge as well as an obstacle to the case because it makes everyone to become a little bit more worry to in the case of the SPR, it's certainly put the SPR in good light as well.

1:53:44

It's it could.

Both Maurice and Caroline Pleifer were both SPR members.

It was a good well invented.

I don't think they could have done anything different.

To be honest with you Michelle.

I can't think of a single thing that they could have done different.

No.

1:53:59

And I think it's certainly a case that impacted, you know, the public perception of hauntings and ghostly phenomena.

And like you said, I do think it very much raised the profile of the SBR in a very positive way because like you said, I don't think there's anything else that they could have done reasonably then that they didn't do.

1:54:21

I mean, the amount of experts that they spoke with, the amount of investigation they did, the amount of attempts that they did to come to rational conclusions, to debunk, to investigate the amount of evidence that they recorded and documented is just astronomical.

1:54:39

It's a huge body of work.

And so I don't think we can kind of move away from that fact.

I think to move away from that fact is actually very disparaging for the work that they did, which is huge.

Yeah, because when you look, Enfield was the first big major poltergeist case.

1:54:59

Without question.

It was the first biggest case in the the UK.

People refer the first case to the Bully Rectory, the famous highway price case.

I don't even buy that Boli Ratchi was a poltergeist.

1:55:15

I think if it was to take an educated guess at it, it would be more of a high end aren't.

And so when the Enfield came along, they had the right people at that point.

And I think what Enfield gave us was it became significant mainly because it opened up a completely different box to the investigator because we're generally dealing with low end, mid range haunting.

1:55:39

So suddenly you've got this bizarre strangeness of the poltergeist and it has seemed to have no limits to what its capability as it's multitasking.

It seems to be some, you know, partly spirit as an entity, is it PK, is it hypoden?

1:56:01

We just we simply have no idea what it could do a standout point with it as well and it certainly demonstrated that in Anfield with this with this high intelligence.

It seems to know things and would use it often back against you because you know, I've spent a longer time so long with investigating poltergeist It I've got nothing to positive to say about it, but I I do admire his ability.

1:56:30

If that makes sense.

It's also it seems to show a degree of knowing the future, the premonition thing that we touched on.

And I think Enfield was certainly out in a better place because of Enfield.

1:56:47

And thanks to the likes of the late Guy Lengplay for Maurice Gross for this incredible case that the that we had.

So, you know, when you look at the the evidence in the case, Borley Rectory itself did give us opened up Harvey Price to the potential of fraud or the OR the accusations of fraud didn't really happen before that.

1:57:15

It was only really associated with seances and mediums.

Borley Rectory sort of changed the dynamics of that.

I think if both Morris Gross and Guyline Playfire did say later on that they had the option, they would not have involved the media as early on as they did do, although they were not responsible for that.

1:57:39

The family when it first triggered didn't know where to go.

They tried the police that was going nowhere.

So they turned attention for the to the for the media and then they did get involved because it can the media can be a hindrance.

So I've certainly learned from Manfield and it's a case I've always been fascinated with.

1:58:01

And particularly when I go down to SPR and suddenly I'll come across a little bit of more information or an extra talk that Maurice Gross gave in the 1980.

It reignites your interest.

But it's a case I think we'll be talking about for forever because it's one it excites.

1:58:20

Everybody has an interest in the paranormal even 47 years after after the event, and we're still learning new things.

Michelle, you know what we spoke about today, some of the aspects of it, some of it will be duplicated, but you know, some of it isn't, you know, new information that both of us have suddenly just recently become aware of.

1:58:42

So for you personally, what would you say is the most compelling aspect of all the different phenomena that we've talked about?

What for you, is the most compelling aspect of the case?

The bill tapes, without doubt.

I've seen everything on the bill tapes.

I find it the most disturbing, the more frightening aspect, because you know, when the only communication that we generally are used to is the old seance tapping 1 rap, He has 22 raps for for.

1:59:13

No, you know, some of them can be subjective.

Subjective with the Bill tapes where you're asking fresh air a question and answers that's different territory seemed to show an incredible knowledge and intelligence on the persona of Bill Wilkinson.

1:59:39

Was it the personality of Bill or was it a simple double danger mimicking of Bill or a combination of both of them?

But when I sat back and listened to them, you think what will the we communicating with here?

2:00:01

How what is the process of this?

How does the sound end up at that point behind a couple of feet behind where Shanna Hodson was sat in never directly from the front of her.

That's probably the one of the most compelling ones and probably certainly the most disturbing aspect because.

2:00:21

You know, if you can imagine being in a room on your own and suddenly you're having a conversation with somebody that you can't see or something that you can't cannot see, what is it that's occurring here with it?

So if I ever look for the done deal in Enfield, it's to build tapes without question, you know?

2:00:50

64 Wilton Ave.

Enfield, Middlesex.

2:01:14

Mr. Berkham said Did any friends go with you?

And he said yes, all of them.

All the dogs are 68 dogs so that they can protect me from.

You killing me, they can bite your.

2:01:32

Head.

So that they can protect me from you killing me.

They can bite your head off.

How can we kill you, Bill?

You can shoot me off.

You can shoot me off.

Now how do exactly shoot you?

2:01:48

We can't see you, Bill, by praying to God right from the manifestation.

I'm going going to go back now to when the voice originally started and I must make here apologies to Doctor Bellof for using his name, but I did use it because he happened to be there at the time and it wasn't done as a joke.

2:02:16

I can assure you.

Now we're going to the start of the voice now.

All right.

Very nice, Bristol.

Very good.

Very good.

Let me hear you say my name again.

2:02:33

Come on, let me hear you say my name.

That's not my name.

2:02:52

Come on.

My name is Morris.

Let me hear you say it, Lois.

Now, now, say, now say my old name.

Maurice Gross.

Come on.

2:03:21

Come on.

Nothing will.

Come on.

Let me hear you say my name again.

Come on.

I'll tell you what.

I'll give you a good name to say.

Say, Doctor Bella, come on, let me hear you say that.

Come on, let's hear you say Doctor Bello.

2:03:45

Say Doctor Bello, come on, try.

Come on, try again.

2:04:01

Come on, Doctor Bello, who's been speaking can if you scream the ferry, I can't hear you talking.

2:04:51

Now say Doctor Bell.

Come on, come on, say it for me, Doctor Bell.

Right.

I must remind you that's an 11 year old girl.

Now we go on to Margaret talking to to to the voice again.

2:05:10

When?

When the voice is Bill Haylock.

Why don't you go and live up where you belong?

Why don't you go and live up where you belong with the dead?

2:05:31

He says.

I don't believe in that.

Don't believe it.

Why?

What's so different?

About being up there.

I'm not a heaven man.

I'm not a.

Heaven, Man.

I will I love and I hug George Law and off and Cindy you did up and I have come here to see my family look like all the dear legs.

2:06:15

Right, that's the carto voice that's been mentioned many times in previous poltergeist cases that have manifested voices.

The voice said yes.

The voice said, I'm Bill Haylock and I've come from Durants Park and I'm 72 years old and I have come here to see my family, but they are not here now.

2:06:39

Now next we go very short.

This you'll have to listen very, very carefully.

A raw DVA type voice.

I can assure you that I was absolutely silent at the time.

The family was up in bed asleep.

The whole house was silent.

I did the the type of Ordevo test where I set up the microphone, put it down, ran the tape recorder and then asked if there was any entity here, would it speak into the microphone.

2:07:04

Straightforward.

And I sat there absolutely dumbstruck.

Literally, I, I kept myself so still that, that I couldn't accuse myself of doing anything, that that was my attitude to myself.

And here you'll hear the word no, it's quite clear, unfortunately.

2:07:25

It really should be heard on high fire stereophonic equipment.

And you'll hear the voice very, very clearly.

Unfortunately I haven't got it here, but never mind.

You'll hear it.

2:07:44

We took directly into the microphone.

Directly into the microphone?

2:08:07

No.

Did you hear it?

I'll play it again if you like.

Want to hear it again for those who missed it, right?

2:08:38

No, fairly clear when you hear it on, on on.

Very good equipment.

So how do you balance, you know, the personal testimonies of the family with the the need for objective evidence in a case like this?

2:08:54

It plays a key role in everyday things that we do.

I spent eleven years in the police taking statements from people.

We will send people to prison for life based on personal testimony.

2:09:12

When it comes to the witness, a lot depends on you.

You can, you can only play detective up to a point because your job isn't to investigate the phenomena.

So you're always going to look at the rational, is it, you know, explanation first?

2:09:29

Is it over exaggeration in misreporting at the underreporting?

Is there any elements of fraud in there?

But unless I can prove that fraud, I, I can't go anywhere with a Michelle.

2:09:44

I I have to accept what the person is telling me is being truthful because I haven't got a smoking gun.

And I think this is where the sceptics fall away.

They will you know, I've had people from the SBR that you know, when I spoke to them about the television behaviour and they said, oh, I don't believe that it's a massive hoax are and lost complete interest guideline play for our most goals.

2:10:13

Both had this in Enfield because you know, Mose course himself would criticise his SPR colleague for disbelieving what he was saying because it wasn't just the family he was supporting, he was supporting himself as well as guideline play for don't you disbelieve me And you you know, you know me worked with me for so many years.

2:10:34

Why is it you disbelieve what I'm saying?

And he just have a point, you know, because if we, I don't think there's such a thing as 100%, I think we have to go with the, the logic of what is reasonable, you know, is generally how you would work in a, in a Criminal Court, wasn't it?

2:10:58

You know, it's, it's beyond reasonable doubt that if you've got four or five people, they may know each other, maybe even related to one another.

Well, four or five people taken away separately and give the identical stories, then you've got to accept it because if you're telling lies, I, I will find you out.

2:11:23

Because when I come to ask the questions in a week's time, when you, if you, if you're fabricating a story, you can't remember it, but people will always remember the truth.

The, the, if you need to catch it early, certainly within a week if possible.

2:11:42

But generally if it's something happened today and you interview the person, he tells you the story you write and like, no, you go visit him one time, he's going to tell you the same story.

So I'm very proud.

Personal testimony.

Are there any aspects of the case that you really believe warrant further investigation or re examination when it comes to the Enfield case?

2:12:06

I want to look at the audio in more detail.

I I I'm right to say that I'm slightly critical of the process that was done over the unfilled tapes to digitiser because of the we talk about analogue tapes being digitised, sending the sound down leaves through interfaces into computer to save the file is a WAV file.

2:12:35

It's not ideal, the process isn't isn't accurate.

So the reason why I think this is important is for some years I've been investigating wrapping.

What is the significant of the wrapping?

So if I knock on the table, I will generally see the massive pyramid of frequency.

2:12:55

With poltergeist wraps you don't see the side frequency, just the pillar of the fundamental sound.

When I've also investigated voices, I'd see the same again.

So in the case of the Anfield tapes that are closely guarded and under lock and key, if we was able to get hold of them, I would apply a different process of I would go pure analogue to analogue.

2:13:23

I wouldn't do any digital processing that at all to make the files as raw as possible.

I think we've moved into territory now where I've got tapes, they're older than that, They're still in good condition.

Michelle, I think it all depends on the storage of the tapes.

2:13:41

If the cat's in good, good storage, the that the shelf life of 30 to 40 years I think is inaccurate.

I think it's a lot longer than that.

So they certainly should be able to go back to those and to see if there are consistency, particularly with the voices, because what we seem to have here is Bill, an elderly gentleman, talking with a gruff voice.

2:14:08

Can we then begin to look at other similar voices to see are the comparisons or is that frequency completely different?

Because you know, if it is a ghost of Bell, he doesn't have a mechanical mouth, How on earth is he making any sounds?

2:14:28

Sometimes, And it certainly happened in the case of Enfield, you would hear a sound, you would hear it, but you generally didn't realise where it was coming from, from the direction.

So the location of the source is always incredibly difficult to find.

This is what they found with the bill tapes is when they were hearing it real time as well as recording it, they generally said it sounds like it's coming from behind Janet.

2:14:54

The reason why they threw some of them through the theory of the ventriloquist.

So I think there is some video on that as well.

Apparently I've not seen that.

That's what I've just been told.

I think there's still some way we can go.

I think the there's still stuff within the MPL file that still hasn't been reviewed all of the time.

2:15:14

And, you know, who knows what other secrets are waiting to be found because we've got the technology to look at these things now.

And.

Just to kind of draw things together, what would you say, you know, we can learn from this case, What can we take away from this case in terms of how it was investigated and the the kind of the research methodologies that we used?

2:15:36

What can we take away from that today still?

If you look at unfielding isolation is avoid the media like the plague.

Know what you're doing right early and seek additional support because there isn't many people even in the UK to be certainly be less than half a dozen that generally have a good ground in understanding of the poltergeist.

2:16:04

Not that they've investigated multiple poltergeist cases, there isn't that many, but what they have done is research the general historical cases that are out there in in the public domain.

So when you then look into the phenomena, I think in a modern day, if we had any field with us, we would hit the building with multiple CCTV cameras.

2:16:29

The drawback the cameras sometimes is it can stop a phenomena occurring.

It's almost as if there's an argument, you know, the skeptics say you put cameras in the hoax account hoax now because it get caught.

So therefore stops the reason why they don't get an activity.

2:16:45

But the other side of the coin is the fact that the poltergeist doesn't particularly like to get captured.

And that's why the bill tags make them unique because we've actually got an historical 200 hours of conversations with this this entity.

2:17:04

I think the rest of it comes down to lessons weren't were learned with certainly in the case that that MO rescues would use multiple support such as getting a ventriloquist, for example, with a voice are doctors and so on.

2:17:24

Also psychiatry and psychology into the children behaviour?

Are we dealing with some sort of hybrid energy is associated to the energy of the kids and so on and so forth.

So there were things that are still came from Enfield that we still use to this day.

2:17:41

We've also got the then Days 77 holiday really hard was a video card, audio recorder, cameras, general cameras, just photographs really.

But today we've got considerable amount of different equipment, different energy readings and so on and so forth.

2:18:02

At the moment the SPR working with quite a hybrid advanced device that they're going to deploy in this case and working now in September.

So even the SPR are working hard behind the scenes of looking to introduce a technology because we have to be dealing with analogy.

2:18:22

So therefore, I think in the case of Enfield, they certainly were.

Can we record, Can we measure it?

So we still got some way to go though.

I think that's the thing and I think, you know, people have to say about the mental health, stress, depression, anger that is evolved with with Enfield.

2:18:42

I think we can generally put a question mark against that now.

I don't I don't consider that is a an absolute done deal.

Certainly there's no smoking gun.

That's another lesson we've learned from Manfield that the family didn't want to move house.

2:18:59

In fact they stayed in the house for another 20 years after the phenomena did stop.

You need to put a support network around the because these are victims.

Mrs. Hodgson's got four children at the neighbours with Maurice Gross in particular even pay for the family to go on holiday.

2:19:18

So we can't support because there are victims with this Michelle.

So yeah, I think it's left us with a wonderful, like I say, what a fantastic story Enfield it's turned out to be, even though years after.

Yes, still people talking about it and I think again, it speaks to the impact that it had back then and equally still has today.

2:19:42

It's a really intriguing case and rightly so is one that is continued to be spoken about because it's it's fascinating.

And the more you, the more you kind of peel back, the more you do begin to realise there's so much more depth to it.

It's it's fascinating.

2:19:57

So thank you so much for giving up your time to help, to go into it, into more detail, to examine it further.

It's been brilliant.

Yeah, always a pleasure.

It's nice to have a bit of a redial recycling about Enfield.

2:20:13

I've enjoyed it, It's been good.

Thank you so much for your time, Tony.

And I will make sure to obviously include in the podcast description notes and on the website links to you and your pages, etcetera.

But also we'll get the pages, you know, the links for the Society for Psychical Research.

2:20:30

So if people aren't aware of where to go to, they can find the website if they're interested in becoming a member.

If they're, you know, interested in in seeing more of what the SBR does, then the website is a good place to check out.

So I will make sure to include those links as well.

2:20:48

Yes, and thank you for the invite, Michelle.

I wish yourself and your listeners with my very best wishes.

And I'll say.

Goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

2:21:04

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2:22:22