The Epworth Rectory Haunting With Matt Arnold

Transcript

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time.

I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this Erie journey through the pages of history.

0:50

Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes.

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1:20

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1:43

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2:04

Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story and every story has a history.

And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest.

2:24

Today we dive into one of the most famous and enduring hauntings in history, the eerie tale of the Wesley family Poltergeist, the mysterious force that terrorized the family of the famed hymn writer Charles Wesley, the father of Methodism.

2:42

The haunting's unexplained knocks, groans, and footsteps set the stage for a chilling encounter with the unknown.

In a letter written by Mrs. Wesley in January, she describes the family's terror.

On the 1st of December, our maid heard at the door of the dining room several dismal groans, like a person in extremes at the point of death.

3:09

Some nights after, several of the family heard strange knocking in divers places, usually 3 or 4 knocks at a time.

This continued for weeks, with the haunting growing louder, more insistent, until, as Mrs. Wesley recalls, one night it made such a noise in the room over our heads, as if several people were walking, then running up and down the stairs as if somebody had emptied a bag of money at my feet and on his as if all the bottles under the stairs had been dashed in 1000 pieces.

3:46

Joining me in the podcast is Matt Arnold, author of The Invisible Dimension, Spirit Beings, the Afterlife, and Ghosts.

Matt joins me to explore this bizarre phenomena reported by the Wesley family.

Stay tuned for this conversation on Haunted History Chronicles, where we journey into the past and the Upworth Rectory Haunting.

4:15

Hi, Matt, thank you so much for joining me on another podcast.

Thank you for having me again.

Do you want to just reintroduce yourself to the people listening and maybe share what you've been up to since we last spoke?

Well, I'm Matt Arnold.

4:31

I'm editor of the Christian Parapsychologist Journal, and I am the author of The Invisible Dimension, Spirit Beings, Ghosts in the Afterlife, and I'm also a member of the Ghost Club, the Church's fellowship for psychical and Spiritual Studies, the Alistair Hardy Research Trust.

4:47

And the I'm actually now on the survival research committee of the SPR.

So that's what I've been doing really since joining you last time.

And generally I've just.

Been kind of bobbing along in life.

5:04

I went to the ASAP conference and spoke on the Epworth Rectory poltergeist case.

And since then I also went down to London to the Ghost Club and spoke again in much more detail on, on the case itself.

5:22

And, and I'm kind of working on, I've been typesetting really a couple of books for the Church's fellowship, one of which is talking about spiritual experiences, which is for, really for.

Church leaders to understand that they shouldn't really be brushing this stuff under the carpet, but engaging with people in more positive ways, so it gives them some helpful guidelines as to how to do that.

5:51

So yeah, I've kind of been a busy bee, really.

I was just going to say that's a very busy bee in the last last little while since we last spoke.

But it doesn't surprise me because from everything that I've seen from you in the past, you do like to keep yourself busy with writing and speaking and, you know, being in these various different organisations and lending a really interesting perspective.

6:13

I think when it comes to spiritual matters and, you know, parapsychological matters, events, cases, I mean, you name it, you've been involved in this field for such a long time.

And as I say, just adding that different perspective, which I think is quite important sometimes.

6:31

As I say, I'm one of the very few Christians who actually engages in a positive way and doesn't sort of demonize everything and doesn't condemn folk for having an interest in it.

Really.

And you mentioned a few moments ago the case that we're going to be talking about this evening, which is the Epworth haunting.

6:53

Do you want to maybe just provide an overview of, of the Wesley family and the and the household members involved in the haunting itself, you know, who were present?

What role did they play in the events?

OK, well the the Wesley family is most famous for the son of the the Samuel Wesley who was the the vicar at Epworth Rectory at the time.

7:18

John Wesley was the he basically went on to be the founder of the Methodist movement.

So the Wesleys really were a very church oriented family.

There was the whole haunting itself really starts to take place between December 1716 and January 1717.

7:43

So we are beholden to written materials about these people and by these people as well.

So we can tell that the the family themselves, there was Samuel Wesley and his wife, Susanna Wesley.

8:04

They had quite a number of children, as you did back then.

Some of them survived.

Some of them really didn't survive very long.

But the ones that did survive to the time of the haunting were Samuel Amelia Susanna, otherwise known as Suki Miri, who's called Molly Metabel, who is known as Hetty and who strangely was called Nancy.

8:31

John, who was called Jack by his family, Martha, who was called Patty, Charles and Kezia.

And these have a range of ages from 25 right the way down to six.

Interestingly, all of the boys or men were out of the household at the time of the haunting, apart from Samuel Wesley himself, the the elder.

8:58

And so it was literally just Samuel Wesley the elder, his wife Susanna and the the female members of the family that were in the house at the time.

There was a Robin Brown, who was Samuel Wesley, the elders Butler, as it were, that sort of his man that did his his bidding and his his work for him.

9:22

And there was a a nanny type character as well.

Both of those arrive on the scene shortly before the haunting itself starts to take place.

But yeah, they were all in various rooms, some of them shared different rooms at the time and that the lads were basically down in London or other educational establishments.

9:49

So yeah, that's basically what was going on there.

Was there anything particularly noteworthy about the the family dynamics at this point or or anything that you can think of that might have played into the the reported phenomena within the family members themselves?

10:07

Well, Mrs. Wesley herself had had her husband walk out 14 years previously for a whole year, and that was due to political differences.

Mrs. Wesley herself was a Jacobite and Mr. Wesley was pro William of Orange being being the king.

10:32

So a lot of the politics must have blown up to a head when it got to 14 years previous.

And so some of the children that would have been around at the time of the haunting would have known their father having gone away for a year before he returned.

10:52

So there is that kind of dynamic to it.

There is a lot of teenage females in there, one of whom was quite well liked, shall we say by some of the the people, some of the men in the village.

11:12

There had been previous to the the current building of Epworth rectory.

There had been a previous Epworth Rectory that shortly after they moved in as a family and Sammy Wesley started his preaching, it mysteriously burnt down.

11:28

And we think that that was potentially arson by disgruntled villagers who were not impressed with Samuel's firebrand type preaching.

So yeah, that the family had been through quite a bit, shall we say.

11:44

And at the time of the haunting, I think hormones were playing quite a big part in it as well, which is often the case with poltergeist phenomena.

Was there anything in terms of, you know, the Wesley's beliefs, you know, particularly John Wesley and his interest in the paranormal and his religious views that maybe also help shape the the narrative around the haunting, do you think?

12:08

Well, I mean, we do have issues where the family, because what's what's gone on is that the, when the haunting takes place, various family members are writing to John and John is showing a real interest in this and writing back to them and asking questions and so on.

12:26

And because of this, we can see that when some of the knocking started, they started to think that potentially this was one of the, the children, one of the sons, Samuel the younger, who potentially they thought had died.

12:45

And so they they thought that this may be his spirit that was coming back to, to haunt them, as it were, or to alert them all to, to show that he was on quiet in some way.

So that belief was there that that the supernatural was a thing.

13:01

John himself, his most famous book about this case is written 70 years after the events themselves.

So that was partly my task when I went and did the the research behind this back in 2020 during lockdown.

13:21

I wanted to see how his ideas, how his recollections had changed compared to the original data that was in the letters that were written at the time, the contemporary letters.

So it was quite interesting to see how some of his recollections were slightly different or more embellished to the safe because all good stories deserve embellishment.

13:47

And as a result of that, I think the family themselves were potentially the younger kids were more maybe this is something some of the youngsters, the very young children were would play with it as it would knock on the floor or stamp on the floor and it would knock back.

14:07

So they thought it was a bit more of a curiosity.

The the older ones, Emily basically did not like the fact that her father thought that this was people coming into the house, lovers basically.

14:24

So Emily wanted this thing to carry on, to prove her innocence, that she wasn't having any of this.

Whereas Missus Wesley thought, oh, maybe this is rats because they've had rats.

They'd taken a horn and blown it all the way around the house on the road opposite and it had had an effect of getting rid of the the rodents from the place.

14:50

So they Missus Wesley tried that at her house and they blew it all through the house for a morning.

And instead of it being more localized phenomena, it's that seemed to trigger it to spread all around the house.

15:08

So that was an interesting thing.

And that was when Samuel Wesley, the father, was told, actually, we think we've got a problem.

We think that there is something going on here that is not of this world.

And he is reported to have, towards the end, stormed into his study where this thing never ever stepped foot, as it were.

15:33

And he was.

Pushed.

Back out of the door.

So that was, you know, he, he's experienced some of the phenomena as well.

So overall, yeah, I think the family themselves, when they'd taken a more skeptical view at the beginning, started to think, oh.

15:51

This may be more supernatural than we originally thought it was.

And you mentioned, you know, earlier when Speaking of the, the people in the household, some of the, the servants who were involved.

Do you want to just maybe share briefly the the kind of the role the servants or neighbours or other witnesses to the events had in terms of who else might have been involved, in terms of some of the the paranormal reports and experiences?

16:20

Well, the very beginning of the accounts start with Nanny Marshall, who heard some and unusual groans at the dining room door, according to the mother, and these are reported by Molly and Emily as well, that Nanny Marshall had really been freaked out about this and didn't want to go from room to room without actually having having it as daylight as it were, or without company.

16:49

She she was just so unhappy with what had happened.

It had really freaked her out.

Now when we get to Robin Brown, he was fetching corn from the garrets, which is the attic space basically, and they kept all of the corn up there and he heard a knock on the door which made him run all the way downstairs and used to frequently visit him in bed.

17:16

It's recorded and he he said it sounded like a man in Jack boots with a nightgown trailing after him and it would lift up the latch in his room and make a sound like the gobbling of a Turkey cock, which, you know, quite an unusual sound that we hear.

17:36

But but that itself is not unusual in in some paranormal poltergeist phenomena.

There are reports of similar sounds in at least one other case.

17:53

I think it's the book by Sasha Ferrell sit well called Poltergeist and he talks about this particular phenomena as well.

So that in itself is strange.

He also says that he saw a a mill, a hand mill.

18:13

So this is for grinding corn.

He said he saw a hand mill turning around and he was a bit annoyed actually, because the mill was empty.

And he said if corn had been in it, at least the poltergeist would have been, you know, some use for grinding corn for him.

18:31

So yes, we've we've got Robin Brown occasionally popping up with various phenomena.

And then we get to the almost the very last night of what we would say was, would be the biggest phenomena of all really, which was the the night of the vigil where Mr. Wesley sends for the the vicar of the neighbouring parish church to come over and do an all night investigation basically.

19:03

And that was on the 28th of December.

And it was Mr. Hall or Reverend Hall, the vicar of Haxey.

And he came over and basically Samuel Wesley and Mr. Hall, both of them stayed up and observed some phenomena going on.

19:25

And then as soon as it appeared, it pretty much disappeared.

It just knocked on the outside of the house and went off.

And that was the last pretty much that we see of it.

There are some occasional odds and ends of phenomena, dancing spoons that are a month or two or three later, but that's it.

19:48

So it kind of builds up as it all traditional poltergeist poltergeist cases do.

It builds up and builds up and builds up and then just stops and then maybe there's just a little drip effect afterwards.

So yes, that's that's basically what what we've got in terms of witnesses for this that are external to this.

20:10

It's always fascinating to me, though, how when you have cases like this, when you do see other witnesses involved in terms of some of the experiences.

And you know, this case in particular does seem to have, you know, quite a few external accounts from other people from various different kind of levels of society and connection with the household, Which makes for some very, you know, interesting aspects to the case in terms of questions around how reliable or not their their accounts and their part of the the story are alongside the family themselves.

20:45

But when you have this broader number, it certainly makes for an interesting case, I think, to really tease apart and unpick.

Definitely.

And with not just the external characters, but the internal family having written so many different letters, you can put them alongside each other and you can see patterns where yes, this is corroborating this, this corroborates this, this corroborates this.

21:13

And I think that we've got so many letters that are involved in this that we can plot out not just the actual poltergeist haunting itself, but we're even able to work out the names of various rooms and where people were living just from the level of detail that were in their letters.

21:34

So I think, you know, we've got a really well documented piece of evidence here.

And I think at the time we hadn't got the situation that we've got now where everybody wants a ghost.

Everybody wants to take a photograph and see some orbs and and be confirmed that they've got a a pet ghost, as it were.

21:55

These things were looked at in a very different light back then, something almost to be slightly embarrassed about.

They weren't as as cool as as, as it were, as it is seemed to be by some people today anyway.

So I think we can look at their accounts and think, yes, that's there's, there's some merit to what's been going on here.

22:18

Although we don't have any of Hetty's letters, strangely so all of Hetty's letters.

And it would be strange to think that a 19 year old girl would not be writing about this in her diary or in letters to the lads.

22:37

But there's nothing from her.

And we we think that potentially that's because she became a bit of a black sheep of the family.

And as a result, maybe her letters were destroyed.

We can't say that is definite, but she did become a black sheep of the family.

And it would be interesting to have seen whether or not there had been any letters originally, but we can't do that now.

23:01

So you walked us through a moment ago some of the the kind of the events that surrounded the external witnesses and the servants of the household.

Do you want to make it?

Do you want to maybe take us through the timeline of the events?

So the Saturday the 1st of December the the first phenomena was that groaning that was between the entrance hall and the dining room and that was observed minimum by Nanny Marshall, Molly and her sisters.

23:32

And then the the next day, Sunday, the 2nd of December, was when the servants room, the Garrett stairs, the Garrett and Mr. Brown's room had some phenomena.

Rather it was more groaning more and some knocking.

The Turkey sounds.

There were sounds of stumbling over boots and knocking on a door and apparently the levitation and operation of a hand mill in the Garrett.

23:56

Now whether or not this actually happened is open to subjective kind of.

It's only Mr. Brown's word for this one.

And but then we've got the latch lifting as well.

That took place then on potentially Monday the 3rd of December, we've got some kicking on the shelves in the dairy.

24:17

So those, that was an audible phenomena.

The witness there was one of the maids.

Then on the potentially the the evening of the third of Monday the 3rd to Tuesday the 4th of December, you've got more knocking and thumping, but this time in Trump triplets, you've got some rushing sound against the outside doors and you've got tingling of latches and one of the warming pans.

24:42

So a bed warming pan that would have been hung up, that would have been making some weird metallic sounds as well.

Then we move on pretty much to the next week, which is the week commencing the 8th of December where you've got metallic sounds like chains outside of one of the chamber doors.

25:05

You've got bottles that are sound like they're smashing underneath the best stairs.

Now the, the Epworth Rectory's got 2 sets of stairs.

It's got the best stairs which are for the family to use.

And then you've got the the other sort of servants stairs that are the the narrow stairs that they're sometimes called as well.

25:24

So these were bottles being smashed into the best stairs.

You've got the sound of what seems to be coal smashing into splinters in the front kitchen, but no visual phenomena.

You can't see anything is actually smashed there.

It seemed that there was a man in a loose nightgown that was moving down the Garret stairs.

25:42

You've got knocking under the feet, so on the the floor you've got knocking on the fire screen in the kitchen.

There's all sorts of weird things happening about the 11th of December.

So 10 plus days after that starts, you've got a man in a loose nightgown a a study latch being lifted again.

26:06

And this is basically Mrs. Wesley's like I think this is rats.

So she orders for a the horn to be all brought into the house.

So she she go sends out to to borrow it and bring it in.

26:23

And that's when the following week, you get the horn being actually blown in the garrets.

And the effect was that whereas the noises were always in the night, this time they were heard all throughout the the hours of the day.

26:42

So Emily thinks, you know, she finds it actually utterly hilarious that they were trying for half a day to frighten away.

And she names this poltergeist Jeffrey at this point.

And she she finds it hilarious.

26:59

They're trying to frighten away this poltergeist with a horn.

Now, on the 20th of December, this is when Mr. Wesley is told because he's starting to experience things in the bedroom, knocking nine loud knocks.

27:15

There were three sets of three knocks.

Those were in the master chamber.

And that's when Mr. Wesley's like, OK, I want to find out what's going on here.

And he's it basically sets out to try and find the cause of all of this, but to no avail.

27:33

At that point you get to the second that sorry, the 22nd to the 23rd of December and you're getting 6 knocks and some deep groans and knockings within the nursery.

So this is where two young the of the youngest kids are, plus also Hetty, who's 19 year old.

27:50

She's in the same room as the two youngest children as well.

So it was not brilliant sleeping arrangements for a bless.

Then from the 23rd to the 24th of December, you've got some what seems to be clockwork sounds winding up of a clockwork toy box.

28:09

You've got the gain more triple knocking.

You've got that seems to be sentient.

So it's responding back and you've you've got mimicry knocking as well.

So Mr. Wesley used to have a particular knock that he would knock on the outside of the house door to for the family to let him in, obviously because they didn't want to just let any old person in by opening the door that, you know, having had the experiences of the the villagers, as it were, potentially burning down their house.

28:41

You know, it was times were dangerous for them.

And you also get this.

So this mimicry, they, they knock, and this knocking comes back with Mr. Wesley's particular signature knock.

So maybe mimicry is quite interesting.

29:00

I find there.

You've also got what appears to be the apparition under one of the beds of a badger, some sort of creature that disappears under Emily's petticoats.

Now, what's interesting with this particular phenomena is that it's reported by the mother, but Emily herself never makes mention of this, which I find curious because had something disappeared under, you know, into my clothing, I think I would have made mention of it.

29:28

It would have freaked me out.

Christmas Eve itself was very quiet.

Nothing happened.

But on Christmas Day and through to Boxing Day again, you'd get some more smashing bottle sounds and you would get the sound of money being poured out into the foot of the the best stairs.

29:55

You'd get loud noises in every room of the house except the study and people would it would be it would almost seem like people were walking up and down the stairs and visible things included room doors and latches shaking as well.

30:10

So there's, there's quite a lot going on by the the 4th week, which continues further into sort of again more clockwork winding on the 26th of the 27th, you get more knocking in the nursery.

30:28

And at this point you get to the Friday the 28th where Reverend Hall has come round.

You've got knocking, you've got mimicry again, you've got triplet knocking, you've got the sound of silk nightgowns moving around.

You've got what seems to be the planning or soaring of wood.

30:47

It's got the sound of windmills turning the the creaking of the sails and almost like the sound of a rubbing beast against a wall.

And then after that, on the 29th of December, the only thing that seems to happen on that night is when the father had never had these disturbances in his study.

31:09

But he opens the door and it's thrust back in his face with such violence as it is likely to have thrown him down.

But he thrust the door open and again and went in and there was knocking first on one side, then the other side, and then after time in the next room.

And he tried to speak to it, but nothing, it didn't respond.

31:31

And then after that it's, it's pretty much it.

There is very, very little 24th of January, there's there's knocking, but that's only during the prayers for the king, which is interesting.

So Samuel Wesley's praying for the king and this knocking's taking place during his prayer, which is curious considering the family's dynamic before and how he sort of not got the same political views as his wife.

32:02

And there seemed to be some sort of white rabbit like creature that was seen visible in the the back kitchen.

And then Mrs. Wesley tries a bit of an experiment.

She sort of like tries to knock with the praying for the king, praying for the Prince.

32:21

But then after that, not a lot. 26th of January, there's some knocking above the stairs.

And then after that we move to the 24th of March where there's a dancing plate on a table and that's it.

That's literally it.

32:38

I think you're so right though, with what you said earlier, you really do see that pattern which is so similar with with other cases of just something escalating and building and then completely petering off and and completely disappearing in, in, in so much of what you see.

32:55

And it is fascinating to see that escalation to the point of, like you were saying, this mimicry something that seems much more intelligent, which again, does seem to fit a lot of other cases and experiences of these types of hauntings that we have historically to to look into.

33:12

Would you say there's any other patterns in terms of, you know, key locations and such in in the house and the experiences?

Well, I, I plotted out the, the map of the house because I wanted to actually engage in an interactive walkthrough of the, the whole haunting both on a daily basis, but also walking through the house itself.

33:37

A lot of the knocking seems to come from the Garrett area.

And also it seems as though some of the knocking follows a pattern of moving around the house, whether it's moving down the Garrett stairs, which are right next to the nursery and then along the landing and then down the best stairs and background.

34:00

And then coming back up the from the back kitchen, up the the worst stairs, the narrow stairs.

And they're not through to the back to the Garrett again.

So I'm wondering if some of the phenomena are just certain folk moving around the house.

34:21

Now there was also, I forgot to add, there was also a family mastiff dog that was part of the family and he this, this the dog would be taken into the room by Robin Brown.

So Robin Brown lived in the garrets and Robin Brown would take the mastiff into the room, which I find very interesting because you'd normally want the dog to be pottering around the house during the night.

34:49

Because if you've got people who you think might be wanting to break in, that's really why they got the dog in the 1st place as a bit of a guard dog.

So having the dog moved out of the way was itself I find quite interesting.

35:10

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And you spoke earlier of the the volume of of letters and written material that make this case, I think really so interesting because there is this wonderful first hand material that can be examined.

39:05

And you briefly touched upon an example of, you know, this badger that seems to disappear in inside the petticoat of one of the dresses and this how this is reported across different family members.

What else do you think you know these types of sources these letters can provide in terms of the overview of the experiences and and how they compare and contrast?

39:32

There's a lot of curiosity as to what the heck is going on.

John Wesley is very curious and really keen and wants to know more, but he stuck down in London.

Whereas the, the family themselves are experiencing these things.

39:49

And I think when we when we look at the different ways of reporting what's going on, I, I myself, I'm more interested in, in where is their corroboration between the different eyewitnesses so that you can say, yeah, I'm pretty sure that this actually happened.

40:11

John Wesley's final recollections 70 years later.

Do pick out quite a bit of the stories, but again, there is that embellishment stuff.

So for instance, none of the letters, the contemporary letters mentioned that very final case where Samuel Wesley goes into his study and gets pushed back out again, that only appears in the the story accounts 70 years later.

40:37

So we, you know, I'm, I'm interested to see, did that really happen or was this sort of a miss understanding or a misrecollection of what went on?

Or is it an embellishment to sort of like just say, yeah, well, Samuel, he was the good godly man and this thing didn't get him in the end.

40:56

You know, it kind of he beat the system.

He bit this poltergeist.

So yeah, I think really when you look through those letters, you you can see a family that is struggling to comprehend what's going on.

You've got some family members admitting they want it to continue and you've got other family members who are really fascinated.

41:22

I mean, as I said before, the the youngest kids, they are fascinated by this and almost play with it.

But it also does give us an insight into Hetty because Hetty seems to be the, the, the person around which most of the phenomena takes place.

41:40

And she is very often found in her bed sort of out of breath, sort of breathing deeply and sort of shivering and shaking and all of that.

And, and it's quite sad really to see that what is going on there is obviously affecting one of the members really quite deeply, whether it is because of what's going on that she knows about, whether there's something that she's involved with or for some reason she's become the target of this particular supernatural phenomena.

42:17

We, it's very difficult to see what's, what's taking place.

But it is, it is concerning when you can see just how certain family are really struggling to comprehend what the heck is going on here.

42:33

And it's frightening for them.

I think that's one of the most compelling things that come out of the, the material is this, you do get a real deeper understanding of the emotional response.

This the impact that it has on certain members, as you, as you mentioned.

But also just this cross section of the inner workings, their thought processes and their responses.

42:54

Which again, is really quite unheard of in, in any case, to have the, the kind of records that we have here to really get into the mindset, if you like, of the, the, the volume of people involved within the family is so compelling and just really helping to contribute to that understanding of the case.

43:15

It's so much more detailed as a result because of the the quality and the volume of of source material that are thankfully still survived and and available.

As I say, this is one of the most documented poltergeist cases around that hasn't been I would say polluted by modern myth making.

43:39

And for instance, places like Bawley and even 30s Drive, you've got these original things were happening and then years and years and years and years later, other things are happening as well.

And this whole mythos about these particular properties has has built up.

43:59

Whereas most poltergeist cases, they happen for a short amount of time, whether it's a month or a year or maybe a couple of years, and then that's it, it's gone.

So you kind of mentioned how obviously, you know, we have the the letters and then written material that comes seventy years after the fact.

44:18

How?

How reliable would you consider them to be in terms of their accuracy from when they were written?

I would pretty much say that they are quite accurate because when you cross reference them with other witness statements, witness lettuces of the same events and you can, you can work it out.

44:38

You can plot the letters, put them alongside each other and work out what, which day they're talking about and which phenomena they're talking about.

And the, the general theme of what happened is there in all of the letters that are about that particular day from 2/3 or even 4 different perspectives.

45:00

So yeah, I, I think they're quite reliable.

So you mentioned earlier how John Wesley Junior obviously wasn't residing at the time in the house but was still writing letters to the family.

What would you say his perspective and take on all of the the events are?

45:18

You know, how does his his letters inform the picture of as to what was what was happening and his response to it all?

Really.

Well, John is somebody who is not frightened of this obviously, because he's not actually at the property, but he shows that a an incredible interest in it.

45:37

And so he asks some of the questions which get answered in later letters.

So I think his his own letters do help to at least at least the fact that the that communication chain is still open.

45:54

It means that the family are revealing more to him about what's going on.

It's not like he says, OK, that sounds great, I'm too busy doing my studies don't bother me again sort of thing.

He keeps the communications going and as a result we we find more and more information as the time goes by with this particular haunting.

46:16

I think for me, I think it shows, just as you said, that it shows the level to which these experiences have impacted the family, that this is something that they are corresponding back and forth on.

You know, this isn't something trivial that is mentioned briefly.

This is a real, you know, subjective discourse amongst them going back and forth.

46:38

Definitely, definitely.

And it's great to actually see how the family are supporting each other really in this relaying the story and basically providing us with an incredible set of documentary evidence, first hand account stuff.

46:56

So thinking back to the the different experiences, the phenomena that you reported, do you think there's any, you know, physical evidence of, of possible reasons behind some of what was reported?

You know, thinking back to things like the shaking of the walls, the noises that were that were reported, do you think there's any structural or environmental factors that maybe could explain some of that and what was going on?

47:24

I think definitely there are some factors that are environmental.

I mean, for instance, things like the brushing of the the outside of the house.

We don't know under what plant life was around the property at the time.

So we can't tell if there were any trees which had the wind been blowing in a certain direction, there would have been sweep, you know, brushing against the house.

47:48

Or even we, we have the evidence because Epworth is on the Isle of Axiom, which itself about 100 years before had been drained in order to make the land fertile for, for farmers to use.

48:04

But also around there, and I, I found this out recently, there's a lot of gypsum mining that had taken place before this haunting and these mines were no longer used.

They would have been filling up with water.

48:19

You would have had mine collapses.

I think it's the Trent.

It's, it's on the it's a tidal river and it's the tidal effect of that river comes up as far as Epworth.

48:35

So you have got the potential for this creaking to be because of the tides.

It would be interesting and I haven't done this, but I mean the tides change by about 55 minutes each day.

So you would have expected certain phenomena that were happening at certain times to move throughout the day on that cycle if it was just related to the tidal phenomena.

49:04

So, but I, I think certainly some of the more loud banging could be structurally adjusting, shall we say.

And then again, I think you've also got the fact that Hetty now Hetty was a very headstrong lady and she, she became, as I said earlier, the black sheep of the family because she ended up going with a lawyer, becoming pregnant outside of marriage.

49:37

And an arranged marriage was, was organized for her with a local plumber who the they weren't very suited for each other at all.

Hetty was a very intellectual lady.

49:53

She was quite headstrong.

So basically the marriage was a bit of a mess in the end.

And she has written a lot against marriage in her own poetry.

So she's got a book of her own poems and she is very scathing about marriage in that.

50:11

But also, I think the fact that Samuel was thinking that some of the the girls had got lovers that they were bringing into the house.

And this just started to happen less than a month after Samuel Wesley's got this new man that's come into the house who's living above the the nursery where Hetty is.

50:36

And Hetty was herself.

She was the one that would take her.

She would light her father to bed was the was the phrase used in the letters.

She would basically take the candle because it was pre electricity or gas.

50:52

She would take the candle and light her father's way to his bedroom.

And then she would be the last one up, as it were.

And she would often sit at the bottom of the Garrett stairs, which would lead to Robin Brown's room.

So potentially you've also got there a situation where there is a little bit of carnal interests that may be taking place as well.

51:18

And if you've got phenomena that have been strange and weird and supernatural, should we say at the beginning.

Often we find in things like Enfield, people want to continue this to to keep the interest going, but it also provides an excellent cover for some sort of a fair type situation.

51:44

So that and Emily herself wanted to keep this thing going to prove her own innocence.

And the fact that you've got Susanna Wesley, the the wife of Samuel, who was really Hacked Off with her husband's politics.

52:05

And Susanna you know, she doesn't want to be disturbed by this phenomena.

So seems to make some sort of deal where it doesn't disturb her during her hour of.

Prayer.

And then as soon as the the the King's prayer, prayer for the king takes place towards the end, knocking happens again is I think you've got a whole quite a dysfunctional type of family situation going on there.

52:29

So I think you've got paranormal stuff, you've got normal stuff as well, psychological, sociological, all sorts of stuff happening that is contributing to this particular case.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

52:44

And like you said earlier, the fact that the dog, which would make so much more sense to have the dog prowling around alert, observing, you know, potentially dealing with anything that may be disturbing the household, but yet the dog is is shut away is quite compelling in itself.

53:02

As to again, is that just something then that is covering up and masking something else that's going on internally within the house.

Like you said, this is an interesting family dynamic, so it's even more intriguing that the guard dog is also out of the way, so to speak.

53:19

Conveniently put out of the way, I would say.

So how would you, I mean, you mentioned a few cases a moment ago.

How would you say this case compares to other cases, other examples of poltergeist activity, or other hauntings?

53:36

Well, I mean, we've got Enfield, which is particularly known for its focus on the, the young girls in the family and one, one of them in particular.

So you've got that again, that link there.

53:52

I don't know too much about Bali, which is really unusual, but I've been there.

But in terms of the place itself, but I've never really been that fascinated by poltergeists as much as maybe I should be.

This one is my first real getting my teeth into something.

54:12

So, yeah, and and as I say with 30s drive, I think that's just been turned into a paranormal playground.

But I think when you look at this case, if if ever there was a case that kind of firmly seems to agree and lend itself to the the feelings and the thoughts around that young emotional teenager or the emotional young woman and the hormonal young woman.

54:35

And activity here, here is kind of the hotbed for that.

I think you can certainly see how it aligns with with other similar cases and really seems to tickle the boxes for that, shall we say.

Yeah, I mean, it is the almost the de facto the, the, the definitive poltergeist case as it were, where other cases will have some of the phenomena that happened in here, whether it's smashing bottles or Turkey sounds or crashing cymbals, metallic sounds, all that sort of stuff is found in most of the cases as well.

55:18

I mean, you've even got the drummer of Tedworth case, which is earlier than the Epworth one.

And I'm wondering, I mean, I'd be fascinated to be able to see if there was any link between the phenomena and the Tedworth and the the Epworth case, because I wonder if they'd read if there was an awareness of the drummer poltergeist in the the Wesley family.

55:45

It would be interesting to to have that information to see if there is any correlation or not.

Absolutely.

So just kind of thinking about the the case and the the experiences reported, where, where would you say that you lean in terms of your thoughts and your explanations for the events?

56:04

Are you leaning towards more paranormal or more natural or a combination of the the two there?

I think it initially started as paranormal.

I think potentially you'd got some natural phenomena that were taking place that because there was a fact a paranormal narrative already started to build up.

56:26

The natural phenomena were interpreted it through a paranormal lens.

And as I say, I think some of it may have been embellished.

Some of the phenomena may have been created maybe by Emily or maybe by a combination of Robin Brown and Hetty, who were in cahoots, as it were, to cover up their own things that were taking place in the house at the time.

56:53

But I do think there was definitely some supernatural stuff that was taking place.

And whether or not it's because of heightened emotional states within the family that were acting as a magnet for this sort of stuff and it was feeding off it and then some sort of feedback loop with amplification by human means as well, I think you cannot say it was definitely one or the other.

57:17

I think it was a combination of both and a very complex one at that.

And, and I think it's complex because, you know, hearing you speak about the, the dynamics of the family and the relationships of the family members, you can really see how in so many of this, there is, you know, something else going on as well, something underlying there that maybe maybe creates a reason and a motive for also adding, adding to this scenario and maybe embellishing and extending the experience of, of what's been reported.

57:51

I mean, just thinking about the knocking during the, the prayer, I mean, you could very easily see how that could be Mrs. Wesley using that opportunity to obviously again, show that opposition she has politically with her husband around his beliefs and so on.

58:06

So I mean, it's, it's fascinating and it's intriguing to also see how some of that could, like you say, play into the experiences alongside some that are much harder to, to dismiss.

And I, you know, I think it makes it for an interesting complex picture.

58:24

So, so often these cases are where you can't firmly say one one way or the other, exactly what's going on.

Yes, definitely.

I think that the way that we've, we've got this insight, this telescope into the family through the letters, we can get such a, a rich concept of the family itself that we can set.

58:54

And plus we can also use the historical letters or the historical information about things like drainage and about the, the tidal situation.

We, we've got the ability to at least work out.

59:11

I would say maybe not as much a percentage, but yeah, I reckon this is probably highly likely to be supernatural, whereas this is highly likely to be somebody playing around or joking about or trying to distract from what's going on in in the in the household.

59:32

Was there any role in terms of maybe the local folklore or things that were happening within, within the community that might have also played into the experiences of the family in the house?

I honestly don't know that one.

I am not a folklorist, so that would be for somebody else to have a look really.

59:52

And this is one of those cases that I would say, take the information that we've got now, take what I've produced, take what are the people I've produced and go and do some further.

Digging around because just like on, on something like uncanny, the more people that can bring in their own expertise and, and bits of evidence that they've discovered from libraries and archives and so on, we can maybe even dig a bit deeper into this case and find even more stuff.

1:00:24

So I mean, if, if we could ever find Hetty's letters, if they exist, we would have a real insight into what was going on as well.

I completely agree.

And I think there are some really interesting aspects that you've already touched upon that, you know, if someone could add that little body of information to, it would be incredible.

1:00:43

Like charting the changes in the tides and, you know, mapping that alongside the reported phenomena and see if there's any trends, looking at folklore to see if that played any part into this.

You know, there are, there are different lenses through which you can examine this case.

1:01:00

But the fact that there are again, all of these letters that make this really quite unique because it's so well documented does mean that you can do any research alongside those.

And just as you have done, you can begin to really interrogate the the evidence alongside other things.

1:01:19

Then to again, add to that picture to see if there's anything that can contribute to what we know already, rather than it simply being a case that is in the past that maybe we, we can't do that too.

You know, here we have something that we can hang research onto because of the letters, which is is fantastic.

1:01:39

And as I say, from the letters, we were even able to say, ah, yes, there appears to be a door between 2:00 rooms downstairs between the, the dining room and the, the back kitchen There, there appeared to be a door that was going on because of the way that you could trace the flow of the, the members at particular times.

1:02:03

And yet when I did this in 2020, I couldn't go to EPPO directory because of lockdown.

I went a year later and I was able to see, ah, yes, there is a door that has been blocked here.

And you can see in the roof a reconfiguration in the plaster work of some of the the doorways, some of the walls.

1:02:24

So that was just because I, I couldn't get a floor plan.

I went to the English Heritage, had done a tree ring analysis of the Timbers in the house.

And so they produced a floor plan of the house at the various levels.

1:02:41

It didn't have the names of the rooms in as per the letters, but from the letters themselves, you could work out which rooms were being related to.

And then to be able to go a year later and walk around the place and see the rooms themselves.

Although the, the garrets were closed off at the time and the, the paper chamber, which is the best chamber that was also shut off.

1:03:05

So you've got that.

You've also got things like the, the ability to look at the, the moon and the, the tide, the moon phase and the timing of the sunsets and sunrise.

Because we can do that with computers that can tell us that on that day, even hundreds of years ago, because that even gives us an insight into the, the light levels.

1:03:26

What could be seen by natural light?

Was it daylight when these things were taking place?

Was it dusk or was it, you know, much, much darker than that?

So there's so many different things.

It's incredible.

And again, This is why I think it's such a fascinating case because I think it makes for a really interesting study into how we can discuss and interpret documentation and how to document experiences.

1:03:56

You know, even thinking about, you know, someone's experiencing something today, you know, the same level of questions like you were saying, light level, you know, that's something that you can track through these letters and through what we have today in terms of of of access to that information so easily available online.

1:04:15

You know, these are things that we can apply to this with that rigor that I think makes again for just really interesting questions around how we document, how they documented it, then what they considered important and why we consider them important today.

Yeah, definitely.

1:04:31

I mean I in ASAP.

I did some training with Steve Parsons on investigation and we didn't go around with any of these gadgets that a lot of people seem to like.

We literally just had a notepad, our watches, and we would document what we heard, what we saw, and we'd stay in a place for a certain amount of time and then we'd move to another place and document what we saw and what we heard.

1:04:58

And Steve said that it some of the reports that came back provided a fascinating retelling of the how the light in the rooms changed as even just the sun moved through the sky.

1:05:13

So yeah, you know, all of these things that we rely on our own senses rather than on gadgets actually might be much better for being able to document stuff.

I I truly believe.

And again, just kind of following on from that, it's the critical discussion that you can have around the merits of that type of phenomena reported alongside, you know, our observations and what we know about how light can travel.

1:05:42

You know, how we can apply these things when looking at this material, which again, I think can prove to be a really interesting discussion with regards to studying and understanding reported phenomena.

And again, just really emphasizes that need to have rigor when it comes to any phenomena and how it's reported.

1:06:05

Because it's, it's that it's the details that often can be really, really either hit or miss, should we say, in terms of really understanding what's what's been experienced.

Absolutely.

I say document everything lower how small and how insignificant it might seem.

1:06:23

It might be that whatever you see is corroborated by somebody else or experience is corroborated by somebody else.

Obviously you have to make sure you don't cross contaminate the evidence by talking about the stuff before it's recorded, which is one of the, again, one of the things that Steve taught us about.

1:06:42

So yeah, I definitely would say document everything and then afterwards you can sift through.

And This is why I think historical cases like Epworth still really have a place in terms of the lessons and the insights that we can we can draw from the experience because it is so very well documented, as we've we've spoken of here is a case for which we can really truly understand the emotional responses of the family, the impact that it's had on them.

1:07:15

The timeline clearly laid out that we can then compare and contrast.

But likewise, this understanding from a paranormal investigative standpoint as to the details that are captured that again, spark this discussion.

1:07:31

We can really learn from this case in a way that sometimes we don't often get to, even with more notorious cases, you know, that make all the headlines too, that are more recent, but we just don't have that material around them.

1:07:46

You know, maybe the the reporting isn't quite so good and quite so detailed and laid out in the way that we have here with the volume of letters that we've got.

So, you know, there is a place I think for really truly understanding and reflecting back on cases like Epworth to see how they sit alongside more modern examples and to see what else we can discover, things that we can we can do as further research, again, as we've alluded to.

1:08:15

Definitely, definitely that's.

It's a great.

Case for armchair investigation to cut your teeth on before going out and doing something out in the in the big wide world, as it were.

1:08:31

And you've done such a lot of work around this case.

I mean, the, the, the material that you've produced and put on the website, your website that is, is incredible.

So it's a great starting point for someone to, you know, dip their toe in and have a look at the, the material and, and the progression of the timeline.

1:08:52

And again, just use that as that standing point, you know, that starting point to go away and further analyse and to look into this case or, or others, you know, as someone see fits.

It's a great one to begin with because you've done a lot of that work already for someone else.

1:09:08

Definitely if people are interested in following this up, my website is www.ghostschoolsandgod.co.uk and in there on the articles database you can find the the chronological step week by week analysis of what went on what the sun and the moon data is, the various phenomena, audio or visual, where these things happen.

1:09:35

You can find the maps, layouts of the household, the names and the the rooms that the the family were living in.

You can actually, I've also uploaded the letters themselves and they're all coded letter referenced.

So as you go through, you can have you can read in the original letter what's going on at that time on that day.

1:10:00

You've got access to links to the tree ring analysis, so you can again cross check.

You can see all sorts of, but basically it's a collection of the documentation that I've been able to get hold of and make that that is in the public domain that I can I can make freely available for people to investigate and make up their own minds.

1:10:24

And I will make sure to obviously include those links and links to you and your book and your social media pages and everything.

Because again, I just would like to make it as easy as possible for people who would like to follow up with this to be able to click on a link either via the podcast description, notes or the website and be able to follow up on what we've been talking about.

1:10:48

Yeah, that'd be brilliant.

Thank you.

And just to finish, Matt, I mean, I know you briefly mentioned your book that we have obviously spoken about on a previous podcast.

I would highly recommend, if you haven't listened to that one, take a look back at the episode that Matt has been on before talking about his book.

1:11:06

But just briefly, Matt, do you want to give a brief synopsis of your book and the title again, and the best place for where people can find a copy of the book if they're interested?

So the book is called The Invisible Dimension, spirit beings, ghosts and the afterlife.

1:11:25

A synopsis of it would be it is looking at it, looking at the early Hebraic beliefs.

So we're talking about the time 2 1/2, three, 3 1/2 thousand years ago in ancient times in ancient Near East.

1:11:44

It's about the beliefs of the nation that would become known as Israel at the time.

The way that the afterlife understanding goes from you die and you go to be with your sort of ancestors to the tribe, then to your nation.

1:12:00

It looks at the segregation where the things like the the concept of hell come from as well as heaven.

And, and what do these words actually mean?

Because there's four different words in the Bible for the word hell, we've got one hell of a translation problem.

Sorry about the pun there.

1:12:16

But it then looks at what what did the earliest Christians believe about the afterlife?

And so you can see not just the stuff that's in the Bible, but the the books of the Bible, as it were, that some slim line versions of the Bible, the Protestant version emits.

1:12:34

So the Deutera canonical text or something called the Apocrypha, as well as some of the what's called pseudepigraphal books.

So all the ancient literature, some of which is in the Bible, but some of which it isn't in the Bible, and how that all into place.

So what is an Angel?

1:12:50

What does Angel actually mean?

What's a seraphim?

What are the cherubim?

And it looks at these beings from the surrounding cultures as well.

So it's from it's looking at it from the perspective of the original writers as they move throughout time and interact with Egypt, with Mesopotamia, Hittites, the Canaanites, that sort of idea.

1:13:15

And yeah, it's looks at demons.

And what does the word demon actually mean?

It can mean three different things in the Bible, including spirits of the dead.

So we've, you know, we seem to think of demon as something out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or the Exorcist.

1:13:36

But back then it was much more nuanced.

There was, there was a lot more going to it.

And it wasn't the same sort of idea that we'd necessarily picked up nowadays.

So, yeah, there's, there's all that sort of stuff in there as well.

And it's it's based on my master's thesis, which I won an award for.

1:13:53

So it's not sort of just random stuff.

It's actually been well argued and researched.

And yeah, so I'd recommend it especially to people who are of the Christian persuasion or are interested in the Christian persuasion.

But also those are getting it in the neck, as it were, from Christians who are telling them, oh, you shouldn't be dealing in this sort of thing.

1:14:15

You shouldn't be interested in this because actually the biblical writers themselves were fascinated by the the supernatural.

So, you know, it's a great one to say.

Well, actually.

Here read this.

It's an incredible book.

I mean, I said that the last time that we spoke about it.

1:14:31

It really is such a well researched, put together book that personally I think anyone can can read it and really gather and learn from it, whether you are of a Christian background or not.

1:14:47

It's it's a really, really well researched book.

It's phenomenal.

And for anybody that is very much interested in the supernatural, it provides such an important reference point in terms of the writers and the speakers of the day and their beliefs around what happens after death.

1:15:04

So yeah, it's, it's one that I also highly recommend.

So yeah, I will again make sure all the links are easily available to be able to grab a copy of the book in the in the podcast description notes and again on the website.

Fantastic.

1:15:20

Thank you.

Honestly, Matt, it's such a pleasure to be able to, to talk to you again.

Thank you so much for your time in, in bringing your knowledge and your understanding and your research around the Epworth case.

I mean, it's been brilliant to tease apart some of the details with you and hear your viewpoints.

1:15:37

So thank you so much for your time.

And thank you for your time and for having me back on the show.

Thank you very so much.

And I will say goodbye to everybody listening.

Bye everybody.

Bye.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

1:15:57

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