The Haunting History and Ghosts of Chillingham Castle with Diane Chambers

Michelle: Miller's End by Charles Causeley when we move to Miller's End every afternoon at Fall, a thin shadow of a glade quavered through the garden door dressed in black from top to toe and a veil about her head. To us all it seemed as though she came walking from the dead with a basket on her arm. Through the hedge gap she would pass, never a mark that we could spy on the flagstones or the grass. When we told the garden boy how we saw the phantom glide with a grin his face was bright as the pool he stood beside. That's no ghost walk, Billy said, nor a ghost you fear to stop only old Miss Wickabee on a shortcut to the shop. So next day we lay in wait past a civil time of day said how pleased we were she came daily down our garden way. Suddenly her cheek had paled, turned as quick from ice to flame. Tell me, said Miss Wickabee, who spoke of me and my name Bill the garden boy, she sighed, said of course you could not know how he drowned that very pool a frozen winter long ago. Happy spooky season, everyone. Looking for a fantastic spectacular Halloween event. Why not join the Causeley Trust at Lawnston Hall on the 28 October for a Ghostly townwalk, tales of witchcraft and folklore, ghostly music and poems of the late Charles Causeley. The Halloween evening will feature folk singer Jim Causeley, paranormal investigator Corinne Bessant and the Jamaica in paranormal team Simon Costin from Doc Acre house in the museum of witchcraft and Magic in Bose castle and folklore expert Mark Norman. The ghostly Town walk will begin at 06:00 p.m. At the town hall and will last approximately 90 minutes. Then at 08:00 p.m., there will be performances of Charles Causeley's ghostly poems set to music by Jim Causeley, a talk from Simon Coston about witchcraft and his work at Doc Ache House and discussion from the Folklore Society's Mark Norman. To find out more about it. Why not head on over to listen to the recent podcast episode A Spectacular Causeley Halloween and check out the description links in that episode for the Trust as well as how to get your hands on tickets. Hi everyone and welcome back to Haunted History Chronicles. Chillingham Castle is steeped in history and ghosts. This 12th century stronghold became the fully fortified Chillingham Castle in 1344 and the family bloodline has remained ever since. The castle occupied a strategic position during Northumberland's bloody border feuds and was often under attack. But the castle also hosted a dark past. It's claimed that the darkest time was one of torture and death, mostly at the hands of the resident torturer, John Sage. John Sage had fought with Edward I, but once injured was unable to fight more and being loyal to King Edward, pleaded with him to keep him on in some capacity. He was given the job as torturer and stepped into his new role with Relish. It was said that he had a deep hatred for the Scots and little mercy. With over 7500 men, women and children suffering an agonizing death at his hands. Often legs and arms were broken before they were thrown 20ft down into Ubliet. With no way to escape, they were to eventually starve and die in pain and fear. If this was true, then one can only imagine the feeling of hopelessness. It was also said that John Sage met with an equally gruesome death after he accidentally killed a tribesman's daughter that he'd been in love with. The father exacted his revenge on John Sage was executed at Chillingham with parts of his body taken as souvenirs, a fitting end to a life dedicated to such cruelty. Throughout the centuries, the castle's architectural detail and massive walls have remained unchanged. The medieval strength and character remains. Chillingham Castle boasts some of the highest levels of paranormal activity in the country, with a large collection of specters and apparitions spotted by visitors over the years. The poet Longfellow begins an apt description of Chillingham with the following verse all houses in which men have lived and died are haunted houses. Through the open doors, the harmless phantoms on their errands glide with feet that make no sounds upon the floors. Several ghosts are known to wander the castle's time worn interior. The most famous is that of the radiant boy, a childish wraith that is seen in the castle's pink room, and whose heartrendering cries of either fear or pain echo through the corridors upon the stroke of midnight. In the past, cries always seemed to emanate from a spot near where a passage is cut through the 10ft thick wall into the adjoining tower. As they faded away, a bright halo of light would appear and the figure of a young boy dressed in blue would approach those sleeping in the room. Later, the bones of a child surrounded by decaying fragments of blue cloth were found behind the wall. They were given a Christian burial and thereafter the radiant boy was seen no more. Until, that is, Sir Humphrey began letting the room. Some guests complain of a blue flash that shoots out at the wall in the dead of night. Although they attribute it to an electrical fault, sir Humphrey is quick to point out that there is no electrical wiring in that particular section of the wall. Another unquiet soul to stalk the castle is the spirit of Lady Berkeley, wife of Lord Grey, whose husband ran off with her own sister, Lady Henrietta. Lady Berkeley was left abandoned at the castle with only her baby daughter for company. The rustle of her dress is sometimes heard as her invisible revenant sweeps along the rambling corridors, searching for her husband and leaving a cold chill, not to mention unsettled witnesses, in her ghostly wake. Joining me today to discuss the haunting history and ghostly experiences of Chillingham Castle is Diane Chambers. So get comfy and let's get ready to explore many layers of history and paranormal activity associated with this magnificent castle.

Michelle: Hi, Diane. Thank you for joining me today.

Diane: Hi. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks for asking me to come on.

Michelle: So we're going to be talking about Chillingham Castle, which is a fantastic location and one that you're very passionate about. Before we dive into the castle itself, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe your background and how you got interested in the paranormal field?

Diane: Yeah, okay. Well, I live in Hertfordshire with my partner, and really my first experience was probably what led me to be interested, and that was my grandparents lived in a big Victorian house in London, and I used to visit there as a little girl, and I was probably about five or six. And it was one of those typical old fashioned Victorian houses. You had, like, the parlor at the know for high days and holidays. And my grandparents had a piano in there. And as a child, children are drawn to playing on pianos. So I'd go in and I'd tinker about on this piano, and this elderly gentleman, not my grandfather, another elderly gentleman, used to come and sit on the arm of the sofa, resting on a walking cane, just smiling at me. And I thought, oh, this is really clever of me. Look, this man's come to watch me play the piano. And I never thought anything of it. And this happened two, three times. But as I grew up, I started to think, well, surely that's just a child's imagination. Children make up friends and things like this. But then as I got older and I got into my latter teens and my interest was piqued by Horror and Supernatural and the Unexplained magazine, I loved that. Growing up, I started to realize that actually, probably what I was seeing wasn't my imagination. And I got speaking to my brother one day, who's quite a bit older than me, and he had been doing a lot of family research, a lot of the family tree. And he said to me, he goes, both me and my sister had claimed to see things in this house and also other people that had visited had claimed to see things there. So he asked me to describe the gentleman I saw, and I mentioned the walking cane, how he always had a.

Diane: Walking cane that he was resting on.

Diane: And he pulled out a picture of our great grandfather. And I said, that's the man. And he had a reputation. He was well known for his walking canes. He was a turf accountant in London and very well known for it. So that's sort of where it started. But I'd always had sort of for my sister, she says, I'm a bit macabre. I enjoy good horror films, good horror books, novels. I have a great passion to explore cemeteries because some of our cemeteries, some of the older ones, especially in the areas where we'd seen, like a lot of industrial, know the big towns like Yorkshire in London, where we've got these fantastic cemeteries with these big monuments, and you see all these interesting people there because the Victorians liked to show off why they were alive. And they certainly liked to show off once they were dead. So really fascinating. But then, just through life, I've had things happen that can't be explained. So that probably piqued my interest in the paranormal.

Michelle: Fantastic. I mean, it's incredible when you have an experience that just stays with you for the rest of your life that you can't explain and just resonates and feels very personal. And it's moments like that that I think have a lot of people interested in the paranormal field, because prompt those questions of, well, what is it that people are experiencing? What is it that's beyond death? It's a growing question, I think, because the more you become interested in the paranormal, the bigger the questions become. And again, I think that just keeps us going, really. We kind of mentioned that we're going to be talking about Chillingham Castle. It's an incredible location, very atmospheric. Do you want to just kind of help create that picture of what Chillingham is like for you, why it's such a special place for you to explore, to talk about, to visit? Because for anybody who hasn't experienced the castle, it's pretty unique and it is a very special location to go and visit. And I think sharing your passion and your perspective would be really interesting.

Diane: Yeah, I think as well, to start off with, it's where it's positioned on the edge of the Cheviots in the Northumberland countryside and there's not much around at all. It's quite a distance from many places and it truly is a medieval castle. Just to look at it from the front, it's got that slightly sinister foreboding look and it's not like any other castle you visit. And I always say this to people, if you're going to Northumberland on holiday, please, if you're in the area, go and visit Chillingham, because I find that a lot of castles, they're either, like, lifting, like Hannock by the Duke of Northumberland. So the rooms are very prestigious and beautiful because they're used and they're laid out and you can only visit certain rooms or you'll go to another castle where basically it's quite bare, with just boards up, telling you what this room maybe was used for. But you go to Chillingham, and even though Sir Humphrey lives there, and his quarters are quite separate from where you're allowed to roam as a visitor, it's such a bizarre castle, and he has this menagerie of collectibles from all around the world, from all different aspects of life, and it's just quite bizarre and fascinating, but you can sense the history. And if you're sort of a bit tuned in and you're very visual with your noticing what's what. You can look at the castle and you can see like there's layers and layers where things have been moved. You can see that there's certain windows that are now bricked in. You can see bits of rafters sticking out of walls halfway up. So you start to think, well, was there another floor in there or was there a staircase there? You can see that the castle has evolved, though to a first time visitor you maybe wouldn't notice. So I think this is the beauty of going back and visiting again and again just to try and pick through those layers of history and how it has changed because it has changed aesthetically quite a lot over the years. It's quite interesting. But like I said to a first time visitor I don't think you'd realize how it has evolved.

Michelle: And I think sometimes that is the real beauty of English castles and castles across Wales and Scotland in that they really do change. And sometimes that change can be very much open and it's visible and you can see it if you like. You mentioned visit again and again and other times it's very much kind of hidden within how it's been kind of added onto the castle. And it's quite rare when you do get a castle that kind of exposes those changes and allows you to witness them and see them and the subtle changes as well. Not just big changes like adding a battlement or adding another tower or a turret but the very subtle small changes like you mentioned. Is that what you're seeing part of what used to be an additional floor. When you get to see those things you can really kind of picture the castle through those different evolutions and imagine what it would be like and what life would have been like. And that's, I think, really exciting. It's very rare when you get to do that.

Diane: It is. And the fact that also we got to remember we've had the chilling and white cattle there for probably the best part of 1000 years as well. So people would have seen, going back hundreds and hundreds of years these massive wild white beasts sort of roaming the fields there. And there's deer as well. I've seen deer recently. Only back in June there was deer out on the south lawn with babies. So it's the epitome of that sort of rugged, wild border countryside which is.

Michelle: In itself something that is intriguing and wonderful to explore, isn't it? It's that kind of sense of isolation. And again, if you're into kind of exploration almost like going on an adventure, isn't it? You're stepping into something that feels wild, that feels isolated, that feels so much part of history and separate from kind of more modern life. Whereas often when you visit castles they can be very much in the center of a very busy town and part of that town. Whereas when you get these places that are more isolated, you really feel that they're still kind of holding on to their past and they're still there in some way and you're able to step into it and step into the past and really explore what it would have been like being someone of that time in that period.

Diane: Definitely. And it's because it is so isolated and it appears not to have changed that much visually to people. And like you say, you don't hear traffic, you very rarely hear a plane go over. There's not children playing nearby. It's almost like you have been catapulted back in time and you're sort of walking out of the castle in the 13th or 14th century almost. So it is just so unique. And I will just keep saying to people, if you get the chance to visit, it really is a must visit.

Michelle: Yeah. And I think we have a lot of castles across England, but none of them are really the same. You experience different things for different reasons and chillingham just is one of those castles that really does have something that has some unique magical draw to. I agree. I think for someone who is visiting up there, it really is someplace to explore, to enjoy, for its history, for its beauty, for its land that it's sitting on, for all the different aspects and things that you can enjoy as well as the paranormal. Because it is such a fascinating place.

Diane: It is. I just love it because every time I go I notice something a bit different. Or each time you see new guides and you get talking to the new guides and I always find this quite fascinating because I will say to the guides, and I know it's a question they get asked a lot. First of all, how long have you been working here? And secondly, have you seen anything or do you believe? And they all come back with virtually the same answer was I came here thinking it was all hype, that it was a bit made up. And then after X amount of months, I witnessed something. And I know now that it is haunted.

Michelle: And again, within the paranormal field, it really does have that reputation of definitely being haunted, but a lot of activity. And again, that's something that we're going to go into because it's part of what makes it an interesting location, alongside the fact that it is kind of untouched as a place to explore. And the fact that it is so isolated makes it a place to explore and where you can really immerse yourself in it. As a paranormal investigator, before we kind of go into that, do you want to just share a little bit of the history of the castle? Because again, I think helping to understand that really help people to understand why as a location, it's fantastic to explore as a history lover, but as a paranormal investigator, how that can also play into the kinds of things that we'll be touching on a little bit later, I think.

Diane: Yeah, potentially the activity that is witnessed there. Well, most people just talk about the original tower because it started off as one tower, but prior to that there actually was another dwelling there, which often is the case, the footprint before. And so it was actually part of a monastery and some sort of house or dwelling was there. So that was built in the twelveTH century. So we have in 1242, Robert Dumushamp, who was the Lord of Chilean, gifted eight acres to the church because it's got its own little church there. And it wasn't until 1246 we get the Gray family actually move in. So this is the Grays, who eventually also incorporated the title of Earl of Tankerville. So we go on and we sort of jump on a little bit. So I think life has been okay for the, you know, and it's on a pilgrimage pathway, so there would have been a lot of holy people and holy men traveling past and there is quite a lot of old churches in the area all sort of built sort of twelveTH century. And I think you can see how they all sort of line up and they would go to one church and then look out for the next and go on and on and on. So it was in 1296 and there was actually a Scottish raid in Chillingham and they burnt the original dwelling that the Greys were living in down to the ground. So this is when they think that the original first tower was built. And to my knowledge, the first tower is where the King Edward I room is. And this would be, I think it's sort of southwesterly to the building because obviously there's four towers with walls. So we've got this. And this is when it starts to get nasty because the Scots have raided, they've burnt this to the ground, they gathered up lots of women and children and shut them in a church and burnt them and the church down. So this is like now like really getting to Edward I or Longshanks, as he was known. And I don't know if people realize why he was called Longshanks, but back in those times it was rare for a man to be so tall. And he went about six foot three, six foot four and was very lanky. So he was given the name Long Shanks. So he then goes there or one of his right hand men, John Sage, which we will talk about because obviously what John Sage was and what John Sage did is probably a foundation for a lot of the hauntings and activity there. So we go on to that. So it then gets crenelated in 1344. So it becomes officially a fortified castle then with the four towers and the walls.

Michelle: And what that really means is that we've now got a stronghold as a means of defense. Its location kind of put it between these between locations. And so we've got something that is really kind of set up for further problems and trying to understand that bit of history in Know, it was particularly bloody and Chillingham was being caught up in that because of its location.

Diane: It was in a superb location, and once it had these four towers and four walls, it was a really strong defense, a very strong defense. This is like the center of a lot of the warring and lots of other royalty and important people would go there and stay there. Traveling Know, it was a safer place to stay. And Edward had permanent soldiers there being led by John Sage. And he had a real, real loathing for the Scots. His father had a small farm and they were constantly had their cattle stolen by the Scots. And he had seen women and children tortured, raped, burnt, so he already had a of was he really had it in for the Know, there was no doubt about this, maybe the right man for Edward to have, because there was no stopping him. And he was soon sort of propelled to lieutenant. He was just so good at getting them and even when it looked like things were stacked against him, he managed to turn it around and often won these skirmishes with the Scots.

Michelle: He's definitely an interesting character. And for people who, again, don't know the history of Chillingham, he's so much part of it. He really is so part of it. And I think your description of him as being that kind of right hand was he played such a pivotal role. That determination, his own biases, his own beliefs, his own attitudes towards the Scots, really kind of seems, from what we know of the things that he's done and what he goes on to do, really played a huge part in his determination and his ruthlessness completely.

Diane: You just can't understand. Well, maybe you can, because he experienced such horrible things growing up as a child and witnessed his family experiencing them too, but it was like he had a switch and it was just clicked and this is what we've got to do. And I find it hard to understand how someone suffered so much as a.

Diane: Child could inflict that suffering on other children himself.

Michelle: Yeah, it's such a kind of strange duality, isn't it, that you would think you would be able to evolve as a person to not create the same kind of harm, but he very much went on to perpetrate it. I think it speaks volumes as to how hard life was, particularly maybe in this region, that it was particularly bloody for the people on the ground, for people just trying to etch out their existence in these small farmholes and dwellings. And the dangers that could present were quite significant. And so it's very difficult, I think, when we haven't experienced that ourselves to understand the trauma that that can create. I think he was very much caught up in that and we have no idea the kinds of things he really did witness. We have an idea, but to really understand that, I think is very difficult for us to get our heads around. Definitely. Like I said, the way to kind of think about it, I think, is this strange duality that he goes on to do it himself.

Diane: Yeah, he was such a sadist. Also responsible for actually creating inventing some of the devices that were used to torture people. And you just think, where I know someone had to invent them, but you think, where is someone's mindset to come up with and create such heinous devices, to inflict so much pain on people? It was just incredible.

Diane: And you just think, yeah, if I.

Diane: Had that time machine, I'd like to pop back and have a word with him.

Michelle: Well, it's kind of that scientific question, isn't it? What is a product of nature and what is a product of environment and all of those different things. But you do have to wonder if there was something within him, like you mentioned earlier, that all of that combined, just switching something on in him just enabled him to go to that very dark place that maybe he wouldn't have gone to if it wasn't for his early life. Or maybe he would have anyway. We don't know. We do not know. And I think that's the real kind of part of the mystery around him, that we just don't know, because to us it's unfathomable.

Diane: Yes.

Michelle: But yeah, the torture devices and the things that he inflicted were particularly grisly.

Diane: Very.

Michelle: And there was no bounds as to who that was. Young children, older people, men, women, girls, boys.

Diane: There was no regard. No regard. I don't think he had an ounce of empathy, if you were Scottish, for sure what he was like to his own kinsman, I've no, you know, he was extremely loyal to Edward, I no doubt about that. Extremely loyal. And I think from what we can gather, he was held in high regard. And when we come round to when he had his demise, I think it was a real hard thing for Edward to decide what he was going to.

Michelle: Do there, thinking about that kind of history and the place that he plays within that and the part that he has within that. He was so integral, he was so important and it fascinates me that he is still so important within tillingham now, that he's still part of the bones of the his presence still, you know.

Diane: And I do think probably if anyone is going to linger and haunt chillingham, john Sage is going to be top of the absolutely.

Michelle: Absolutely. I don't think that's in question. But nobody can argue he had a presence, a ruthless one, but and a terrifying one, a brutal one, and it's no surprise that something about that has stayed there and that's, again, kind of opening up that question. When it comes to the types of paranormal activity that you experience there, is there anything else that you think with regards to the history that is really quite profound, that is really important for people to kind of grasp?

Diane: Well, I mean, obviously we go through many years of all the various earls, but I think it's probably not until we get to Lady Mary Berkeley, who was married to Ford, and he was the one know had this affair with her younger sister and left her.

Diane: So.

Diane: Lady Mary Berkeley a lovely lady. And she's known as the Grey Lady of Chillingham. And I think most people have heard this story that he had this affair with a beautiful younger sister, fled and left her with a child in this castle. And there's some interesting things about a painting, but there's actually two paintings which is quite interesting, which I probed last time I was there, and no one could give me a definitive answer, but I think I may have uncovered it. So that's quite interesting because I've just sort of probed a bit. So we have Mary, who obviously was or is alleged to be haunting there, and then we jump forward to the turn of the last century and we have the other Countess of Tankerville, Leonora, and she appeared to be very much psychic herself and she witnessed lots of apparitions and lots of things. And she was also responsible for unearthing the Blue Boy. Again, which a lot of people, if they hear of Chillingham and know of the ghosts, the Blue Boy or the Radiant Boy is another one of the particular ghosts people will associate with Chillingham.

Michelle: Before we head back to the podcast, with us all enjoying the current spooky season, right now is the perfect time to head on over to Patreon and explore the daily content suitable for Halloween and all things ghostly. You'll be able to unlock all previous content as well as access future content. You can find a direct link to the Haunted History Chronicles Patreon page via the podcast description. Note whilst we're talking this spooky season, if you love filling your home with autumnal scents or fragrances to spook in delight, take a listen to this short clip.

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Michelle: And now let's get back to the podcast.

Michelle: And it's one of those locations that there are so many apparitions, so much activity attributed to the location. I suppose the kind of the most obvious question to start off with again for anybody that doesn't know about know, what would you say are some of the main things that people witness and report? I mean, we've mentioned the Blue Boy. We've mentioned the Grey Lady. What other things would you say are the key things that typically people associate with chillingham as kind of the regular?

Diane: Well, I think obviously some of these apparitions you probably maybe not witness unless you're staying there overnight because the Blue Boy, that always seems to occur around midnight and you have to be present in the pink room. Well, that's part of Sir Humphrey's personal domain and often relatives and friends stay in that room. So as just a visitor, you don't get the chance maybe to stay in that room. I do know of paranormal investigators that have had access, but it's not a given that you will get access to that room. So there's that. But for me, I think one of the most common things is there's people always like it's more like they get a lot of emotional feelings. They can feel overwhelmed and teary. Now, of course, this may not be paranormal. This may be just that people are maybe tapping into the history and maybe what it may have felt like to be there, that there's certain phenomenon. And we actually came across this last time we was there a few weeks ago, which was very strange, and it was the first time for me, and we were staying in one of the apartments and one of the guys I was with was on a sofa bed in the lounge area. And the following morning then he said, I thought something funny was going to go on last night. He thought he sensed something at the bottom of the sofa bed. And then he said he got the most really strong smell of urine. And I thought, well, that's a strange one, I haven't heard about that before. So we go on and we go on about our investigations and we're split into various teams. And we was up in the King Edward room and we're sitting there. There was about six of us, but one of the guides had joined us, and she's just sitting there. And I thought I saw something dark I thought just seeing something dark on the floor. And she said, don't worry, there's no racks or mice in here or anything like that. And I said, no, it's just a bit strange. It just could be my eyes adjusting, I don't know. And then we went to the Grand Hall where we were all going to.

Diane: Meet up for a little bit of a get together, a little bit of.

Diane: Review of what we'd experienced so far. And I then got this whiff of really, really strong urine. And when I said it out loud, half a dozen of the other people went, I've smelt that tonight. But we was all in different locations, all at different times, people complaining, smelling this strong urine smell. So the guide, Nikki, she said, do.

Diane: You want me to tell you what.

Diane: That is all about? And we said, well, yes, is it something? And all she could tell us that there is something there they call Kai Ki, and it's a humanoid type entity. They're not sure if it's male or female, but it has no lower limbs and drags itself around. So it appears as like a darkness on the floor. And because it's got no lower limbs and drags itself around, they believe that it wasn't able to self care for itself. So hence, this is why we get this smell of urine. And I'd never experienced it before. And I've been visiting for ten years now. I'd never experienced that before. It was the first time I'd experienced it, and a good half a dozen other people experienced the same thing.

Michelle: That's fascinating. That's really intriguing. I can't say I've ever experienced something like that in any location. No, that kind of a smell.

Diane: Yeah, it was strange. The only time I've smelled it that.

Diane: She'S been in old prisons when I've.

Michelle: Been locked in a trail. That is true, but you kind of understand that one. You recognize why you're smelling that because that's really to do with the location and just kind of the sanitation and the systems and all of that kind of structure of the building. But yeah, that's a unique one to kind of hit upon in multiple spots throughout the castle.

Diane: Yes, it wasn't in any one location, and it was affecting people of different sex, different ages, different locations within the castle, different times. There was no specifics. So you couldn't pull it down to what we would call like a residual haunting, something that replays time and time again.

Michelle: That's fascinating. And it just throws up so many questions and theories as to what it could be, where it could be from, why it's still there. How it's in that state? What happened to this person? Whether it was male or female?

Diane: Yes. Was it someone that was thrown down the Uber Lets or was tortured and lost their lower limbs and took a while to die? Don't know.

Michelle: And all very possible and reasonable, given the history of the castle, that this could be someone who, sadly, is one of the victims of torture. Still lingering, still left there. Terrible. Really awful.

Diane: Yes. It's not pleasant. It only lasted everyone always said it's.

Diane: About two or 3 seconds.

Diane: You could really smell it strongly. And this is not a very nice thing to actually say, but it smelled like hot urine, like fresh hot urine. And yeah, it wasn't nice. But as I said, there were several people that experienced it, which was really strange.

Michelle: And to also have it combined with seeing this shadow moving along the floor and for the other gentleman to feel like there was something at the bottom of the sofa bed and smell it, you can kind of see more than one thing happening at once. And again, that makes for some interesting discussion, I think.

Diane: Yeah, as I said, because this is.

Diane: The first time I've ever encountered it in all the years I've been going there. It's the first time I've ever heard of anything like this. But I think lately they've definitely been having more people visit who reportedly are of medium clairvoyant type people. And I think this is where they're sort of getting some of the information from. But all I can say is, physically, that's what I saw and that's what I smelt.

Michelle: That's fascinating. That's really intriguing. And again, just, I think speaks so much to the history of the building and sadly, some of the bloody things that have happened there that it really does seem to still leave its mark in the way that it does.

Diane: That's the most recent one, and that.

Diane: Was when we was there a few weeks ago. So that was what happened then.

Michelle: But it does have such wide, varied paranormal activity and it really does seem to be a location that isn't just hype. People do experience things there. And the fact that you've had the chance to explore it and visit as often as you have, I think offers a unique perspective because you get to hear things and experience things and get told things that maybe other people wouldn't necessarily know. And I think repeating visiting a location is really important to understand the bones of the structure, to understand the history of the structure, to really get to know well. Hang on a minute. When I was here in this room before, it didn't feel like this. Why is there suddenly this kind of atmosphere? What is it that's bringing this to the fore right now? Is this something that is just right now? Or if I come the next three or four visits, is there something about this room that shifts and changes. And when you get to experience a location as frequently as you can, as often as you can over a period of time, you do get to understand those changes and add back to your kind of mental notes as to what the building is doing and possibly doing paranormally.

Diane: Because, yes, you go back and your questions won't be bog standard to the staff there because, like you say, you can pull up or recall something from last time and ask, has that happened again? Has anyone found out any more about why that may occur? So you go in with, say, with some knowledge so you can expand on what the general public for a first or second visit may ask.

Michelle: Yeah, because there is more to I think like any location, there is always more to it than the kind of the obvious things that maybe people know about and can read about or are told about. There's usually so much more depth. And beyond that, if you are able to spend the time noticing, listening, really hearing, really kind of exploring a location with all of your senses as often as you can, it's so great because.

Diane: The last visit I found out something else that I didn't know, so I'm just, oh my God. So now I want to go back and explore on that. That is it, you just want to go back.

Michelle: But when you do have a location that does that to you, that offers up new mysteries and new kind of wonders and new delights to explore, that's why you keep doing it. And again, it's part of what I think is so special about Chillingham that it does have that something else quality that keeps you wanting to return, to keep exploring and keep investigating the questions and the thinkings and the thoughts that you might have, but just to enjoy it as well as a beautiful location, as something wonderful.

Diane: It's a constantly evolving castle because obviously when Humphrey took it over in the early eighty s, nineteen eighty s, it was in ruins. It had been abandoned in 1933 by the Grays and they moved to another manor house within the Chillingham estate and it was used as barracks during the Second World War and it was sort of a wilderness and the men were miserable and cold.

Diane: They ripped off lots of the wood.

Diane: Paneling to create fires. So the castle not only suffered fire damage, it was open to all the elements and it was really quite rotten and run down. And it was one of these things where it was supposed to stay within the Grey family, the Grey line. But luckily for Humphrey, his wife was actually a descendant of the So and they said it could never be sold. And so he was actually gifted it by their last earl because his wife had that lineage. So he's slowly been trying to restore it to its former glory. And hats off to the man. I think he's done a fantastic job to get it, because when you see photographs of how it actually was, it was in a dreadful state. But then we go on to another fascinating part, because when it was laying there in ruins with no roof on, et cetera, there was the painting of the Spanish gypsy witch, and that was in the castle, even though it was open to all those elements, that was there on a wall, barely touched, which is really strange. So no one knows where it came from. They believe it's an oil painting, I believe, by a Portuguese artist, or they think in the style of a certain Portuguese artist, and this is the one that is supposed to protect the witch and will curse anyone who takes anything from the castle that they shouldn't. And there's no end of letters now, obviously, how true they are, I don't know. People might just like to keep fueling the story, but lots of people claim to have taken something and then such rotten bad luck as before them, they've hastily returned it with a letter begging.

Michelle: For forgiveness, which is, like you said, it could be just people fueling that story and that kind of mystery around the portrait. And it just keeps gathering momentum and momentum. But it's still such a fascinating story and it's an intriguing part of the castle's history and continuing history, and again, just kind of helps draw people in, I think, because it is so unusual, right? It's so unusual a part of the bones of the place. Again, that's it.

Diane: I mean, this picture survived. Survived all those weather conditions, survived the fire, survived being exposed to all the elements, and there it was, which is.

Michelle: So I mean, it's so unfathomable again that it could go through all of that and yet still be in the state that it's in, still have come out of that unscathed and still be there. When you have a place that does have real mystery, it is just one of those, like you mentioned earlier, wouldn't you just love a time machine to go back and explore the absolutely pedigree of something? And where did that come from? Or is it something else?

Diane: The picture itself is a mystery. It's a complete mystery. Who it was painted by, where it originally came from, how did it survive. So it's just another one of those things. But there's a lot of paintings that have been within Chimney Castle that seem to have some sort of paranormal activity linked to them, which is that itself is strange. But then do we go back to or come forward a bit when the 7th Earl of Tankerville dabbled in the dark arts and allegedly performed black magic rituals with a well known occultist in the northeast corner of the courtyard?

Diane: So did they trap spirits?

Diane: Did they trap spirits into paintings? Have they trapped any sort of souls or spirits there that create the activity now and again.

Michelle: It's just part of what makes this location so unique, because there are so many periods in time when you can look at something and think, well, wow, is this the reason why the castle experiences some of the things that it does? Or is it this period? Is it this? Is it all of them? It's just got so many moments in its long history.

Diane: It's one big onion.

Michelle: Exactly. The more you peel back, the more you discover it. And that makes for a very interesting kind of melting pot, I think, of different types of experiences, different kinds of possible hauntings, different kinds of atmospheres, all of those things that you can find yourself dropped into. And at one particular moment, you might have one type of experience, come back a month later and you could have a completely different atmosphere set of experiences and phenomena then. And that, again, is quite unusual to have that range, I think. But it speaks to the history, I think, speaks to this very strange collection of things and very dark things, some very light things, some very emotional things, but it's just a real range.

Diane: Yeah.

Diane: And of course, we have to go right back to the ground. Prehistorically. What was there as well. There's been lots of what the cups and circles they found from Neolithic people, so there's always been something there. There would have been ritual sites and their places of worship, all these sorts of things as well. So just so many layers. Again, it's so rich in Neolithic history there as well. And the churches, some of the churches do predate chillingham as well in the area, and they're fascinating. So it's a bizarre, wondrous place, definitely.

Michelle: What would you consider are kind of some of the more atmospheric parts of the castle that are really interesting to explore? Maybe parts that conjure up some of those different emotional kind of responses that we've been talking about, or something else, just something that really kind of draws you in as someone interested in the paranormal.

Diane: Well, I think personally, for me, the Edward I room in the tower, in one of the towers is particularly I think it's just because, you know, potentially what went on in there. This room, this is where the men would have sat and feasted and talk about war and battle. Women would have been brought up to pleasure. This was like a hub and this testosterone filled environment, which was extremely aggressive. And also, if we believe what we've been led to believe is that this is where, again, we go back to our lovely John Sage. And after he had burnt men and women alive in the courtyard down below.

Diane: And forced these small children to watch, he then meticulously, one by one, took an axe to each child. And apparently that axe is in one of the stairwells still today. So I don't know whereabouts it is. I'm going over my old photograph to see if I can find an axe on the wall in the stairwell. So this room is just like and I always feel slightly, almost a sense of panic in there, a bit of adrenaline, a bit of palpitations, but a lot of people do claim to feel extremely emotional headaches, feel sick. Maybe it's just they're unfit and they've had to go up a lot of steps to get to it.

Diane: I don't know.

Diane: Quite possibly you thought going around, around and up, knock, knock, knock. So that could be it. But it's a strange room, but of course, it's been left very rustic looking floorboards with rugs, the stone walls. It's still got a gothic shaped window that apparently was specially created for Edward I. And then for me, the other place is because we know so many places have changed so much. The other place personally, for me is the chapel. It's only a small room, but this is a place where on my first sort of paranormal investigation there, there was only a small group of us, there was only five of us, plus a guide, and we were being told about that. Again, mediums had sensed the presence of a young girl and she doesn't like men or doesn't like making contact with men, but she happily engaged with women. And sure as sure my Zip was being played with on my jacket, or felt like it was being played with on my jacket, which was very strange. And then sometime later, I went back again on another investigation and I was sitting in a corner in the chapel and I just felt really icy cold. And the guy was saying, Is anyone picking anything up? Is anyone sensing anything? And I said I said, I feel so, so cold. I said, I know I'm sitting near a window, but I can't detect a draught, I feel really cold. And then all of a sudden I'd got this strong wave, this smell of vomit. And I said, I can smell vomit. And everyone turned around and looked at me like I'd sprouted a second head and it was just so cold. And then when we left the room, there was a lady sitting behind me and she said, when you said you felt cold, she said, I put my hand up towards your back and I could feel the cold coming off of you. The chapel, for me is a place and they did go on to find three skeletons in the chapel. Two were a proper formal burial and one were the remains of a young girl. So since then again, mediums have come in. They believe the little girl's name is Eleanor and she does only interact with females. She's very scared of men, apparently. So when we went back a few weeks ago, I was eager to get down to the chapel and I was sitting between two guys and we had edis up the environmental detector indicators that measure various different components. And we had them side by side. There was only a slight difference in temperature between them. Mine was slightly cooler, and I started to feel really cold. And I said to two guys, either of you feeling this? Are you feeling the cold? And they go, no, feel fine. And we were getting temperature of about 63, 64 Fahrenheit. And I said, I'm feeling really cold. And I said, this is how I seem to get when I'm here. And I said both of them held one of my hands, so just feel how cold my hands are. And I said, yeah, you're feeling cold, but it was like, you're not that cold, though. But my hands were cold. And then after a couple of minutes, I said, I'm absolutely freezing. And I got them to touch my hands again. They go, yeah, you're really, really cold now. And I even said to one of the guy, I said, Touch my face, touch my nose. And he went, My God, you're freezing. I said, I know. And my legs were shaking. I go, I've just felt something blow on my face. And they're like, looking at me. And then the air pressure went off on my EDI. So for me, the chapel definitely personally, for me, that's where I've experienced something I can't explain. And according to a guide I spoke to back in June there, they have done various environmental tests, and they do not know why the temperature in that part of the room drops so much. They can't find no logical explanation for it.

Michelle: No environmental reasons, no nothing.

Diane: So that is strange because I wanted to check that. I wanted to check that. But when they also said that for the first time, they had done a spirit box this year, and I'm not too keen personally on spirit boxes myself, but they did get the name Eleanor come through, and the signal so poor there, I doubt if you pick up a radio signal anyway. So that's a little bit think. Yeah, I think to me, there is something in the chapel. What, I don't know if it is the spirit of this little girl. I don't know, but it does appear to affect females. And one of the young women we were with last time also experienced it as well. So I would say that another thing for me again is I've had equipment fail around the Minstrel Gallery area. And in the far corner where alleged black magic took place, I've had flashlights fail cameras. The shutters wouldn't depress. Then as soon as I get outside, they're back working normally. So, again, that's a strange one. That's a strange one. And I can remember when Help, my house was haunted. Went there and they were all up on the Minstrels Gallery and all their equipment was failing. I'm thinking, yes, I can relate to this. So, yeah.

Michelle: Equipment failing is always an interesting one. For me because I think paranormal investigators can be quite OCD in terms of making sure that equipment is fine, everything is working, it's all fully charged, that there is going to be no hitches and problems investigation. And then if it goes, you're just like what on earth is happening? And if you're in a position where you can change batteries or you can change the equipment and you experience the same thing, it's a really interesting battery.

Diane: Drain phenomena is very weird. Very weird because you don't get it happen in any other environment. It only seems to happen when you're on an investigation.

Michelle: It's only ever happened to me once before and it was whilst investigating a prison. And I think in this particular cell, I think I went through about five different sets of batteries for this one piece of equipment and it would work for about 30 seconds and then would stop and yet come out of that and it was fine.

Diane: I know. How do you explain that?

Michelle: I really can't. And again, all perfectly working equipment that I'd never had any problems with. All brand new batteries. You just think what on earth is happening? Just one of those head scratches.

Diane: Yeah, we know. Obviously if it's extremely cold, that can affect it, but not to that degree where you literally go from full battery to zero in a couple of minutes.

Michelle: And then to have your equipment have no other issues anywhere else. Anywhere else is stressful.

Diane: It's simple. The flashlight, the flashlight just stopped working and I'm thinking new batteries tonight literally step out the front of the castle and it comes on bright as anything. Okay, that's a weird one.

Michelle: And equipment, I think, is always an interesting thing because if we think about what they may look like to spirits, they would be magic, they would be something intriguing. And you do have to wonder if sometimes they really just like playing with them.

Diane: I always laugh when I watch anyone investigate and they go this device in my hand. I'm thinking, no, you're saying device. They'd be thinking I don't know what a device is.

Michelle: No, exactly. It's just something that's lighting up. It's doing magic.

Diane: You've got a black box or something and it's got these pretty lights on it. These things that show different colors, but that's it. How do you speak to spirit? Or have they got so used to so many people coming in and saying things, they go, oh yes, I remember this, it's called whatever, I don't know. But then you sort of go on to what's residual and what's intelligent haunting then, don't you? Because obviously if it's just residual, you can try and communicate as much as you like, but nothing's going to happen other than their reenactment of whatever they've been doing.

Michelle: And what you're suggesting possibly in this one spot is something more intelligent that it is affecting the equipment intentionally. And yes, the fact that this is an area where possible black magic took place. Where that's? Theorized you kind of have to wonder why target equipment if you think this equipment is something magical, some other kind of magic. Sorcery is there some kind of element to that? You just don't know. It just poses some intriguing thoughts. I think we're talking I mean, this.

Diane: Allegedly took place the early 19 hundreds, so obviously we're beginning to move on. We've had the Victorian era and all the inventions, so anything lingering from that period may have a better interpretation of what we're using. Possibly, but yes, what has been left there? The intention that has been created and left.

Diane: Absolutely, yeah.

Diane: And also, apparently, the 7th Earl, he was able to and it was not written as this, but this is what I assume they meant, was that he was able to astral project. Yes. I mean, they said he was able to out of his body, so I'm sure they mean astral project.

Michelle: I think so, yeah.

Diane: So you just start to wonder. Like I said, there's just layers and layers and layers here. And I'm slowly, with each visit, I uncover a little bit more and I'll find another piece of literature that I read that uncovers a little bit more. But I must say, all the literature I've got, there is lots and lots of contradictions. There is so much. So you think, well, is it this or is it this? Even down to some surnames as well? So I think we always have to be mindful. That what we're saying, it's not set in stone. And how well was history documented from.

Diane: Literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of.

Michelle: Years ago and truthfully documented? That's also the other thing to note, that it may well have been put down on paper, but history is written by the people who write it. And so is that really a true reflection of what happened, the true events of what happened at that particular moment? I think what you were saying about intent is really important because I think that comes through in what history is reported, but also possibly what gets experienced. If some things were wanting to be concealed, to be secretive, you kind of have to wonder and think, well, is that explaining why some things get shut down, why people experience some of the things they do, like equipment failing? And it's again, part of just all of these mysteries of the building. I think that it's had so many changes and different evolutions. History can be ambiguous because of who writes it, who tells it, but also just documenting it, how well it survives. And so what we are all trying to do, I think, as historians, people interested in history, people interested in the paranormal field, are to pull those threads together as best we can. And that takes real time, it takes real dedication and it takes real passion sometimes, because it's not an easy journey and you're. Not necessarily going to get to the end of a particular bit of research or a particular bit of investigation and feel like you have that definitive conclusive proof, because how can you how can you necessarily get 100% certainty that's it.

Diane: And the fact that there's been a lot of fires there. We've had the original dwelling burnt down in twelve, whatever it was. We know that in 18 three the east wing caught fire and burnt down and then we've got the army billeted there and I was told there was Canadian airmen there at some time and again they've stripped and burnt it again. So we've had these fires, these layers of fires as well. So what maybe potentially was destroyed, if there was some sort of documentation within the castle itself, it could have been lost through those natural disasters and all the rain that's come in. We just don't know. I mean, I think Sir Humphrey has done quite well on gathering quite a lot of information, I think, because after he did get it in ruins, and this is what I said about last time I was there, I know that the courtyard level isn't the real level that was put on top of another courtyard. And you can see that because in one corner you can see half a bricked up window, but the other half is missing, so that's obviously below courtyard level, but what I didn't know was below that level, there is another level as well, which is all sealed off and they don't let people go down there. But I think I might give a limb to go and have a look.

Michelle: Shouldn't it be exciting to be able to explore that just the real hidden.

Diane: Depths of the yes, because the initial level under all that courtyard is the original torture chamber. And apparently when it was unsealed, there was a man sitting in a chair and looked so real, everyone thought there's a live man, but then as the air sucked in, he just crumbled and just disintegrated because it was just like a mummified person. They found lots of bodies down there, all the remains of bodies and torture implements. So all under that courtyard is where the original torture chamber was, but there is another floor below that, another level. And all I was told was there were some grim things found that are not talked about and it's all sealed up and I'm just thinking, I just want to know more. So I will be going back. Unfortunately, the castle shuts at the end of October, so I don't think I'll be getting in to visit this year, but as soon as it opens in the spring, I'm going to be back up there, I think.

Michelle: I don't blame you. You need kind of like a pass that lets you in whenever you want, don't you access all areas?

Diane: Yes, you can rent the apartments over the winter period when the castle is shut, to the public. And, of course, all the apartments allegedly do have activity as well, so you may get lucky.

Michelle: Wouldn't that be like a wonderful winter experience? I'm just going away for the weekend. I want to experience some hauntings in this amazing castle. My idea of a good night away.

Diane: Yeah, I say, Be careful what apartment you choose. It was quite cold. But I think, again, that's part of being in a medieval castle. You are in a medieval castle. It's not like plush conversion, deep piled, four poster beds type rooms. It is lots of bare stone work and wood burners and plug in heaters, but it's definitely an experience. It's unique. If you're not after major comfort, not that it's not uncomfortable, but go for it, pick an apartment and hang out there and you can wander the grounds. Of course, there's lots of hauntings and folklore associated with the grounds around as well.

Michelle: It really does just tick every single box, doesn't it? And I say, I just think for someone to experience it, for that sense of adventure, of being able to step into a place, step into the lives of the people that once lived there, to have that kind of an experience in itself is incredibly special. But to then really unpick the layers of history, the different events that have happened there, the people that have moved through there who've been there at some point or another, and then to experience and think about some of the questions around events that happen now, how some of those things from the past maybe still touch us today with the paranormal activity is just another layer to experience and to kind of throw yourself into and keep going back to, because the questions keep coming and the desire to want to know more keep coming. And I think it's going to be a location that proves just as fascinating and interesting to people 50 years from now, 100 years from now, because it's just got so much to it. And that's pretty special.

Diane: It's just so unusual compared to and I know a lot of people say, oh, no, it's a castle. Yes, it is a castle, but it's pretty unique, I think. I've never really come across another castle quite like that. And I love all that. I love castles, I love old houses, especially anything from the Tudor period, love it. But, yes, it is a bit of a heinous, horrible history, a bit macabre, but I think sometimes that captures our interest more than, oh, there were some lovely, pretty people that lived here, and the ladies done cross stitch all day and the men went out shooting, but.

Michelle: That is part of its history. And again, that's things that you can tap into. But there is this other level that really kind of sits it in a prime spot at a moment in history that was particularly volatile, particularly bloody, and it was front and center. And some of the key people like you mentioned were moving through this location, staying at this location, actively planning battles, plotting, deciding what was happening. And this was a crucial kind of spot in all of that, as well as, obviously in so much torture, so much bloodshed. To the point where, like you've mentioned, they were finding things on the grounds and still occasionally find things because apparently.

Diane: It'S quite common to turn up the OD bone of a finger or a foot where so many people were hung on what they call the devil's walkway, which is the long driveway through the big gate.

Michelle: I think to understand that, to kind of grasp that what that means is that the very land that you're walking on is where people's bodies were just discarded and that were left in the chambers below, in the torture chambers below. And that is still all there, and that's still part of its history and possibly what it's experiencing in terms of its paranormal activity. To understand that, I think, makes it pretty unique because most castles, they were built for defense, they were built for protection, for possible activity. But when we think of castles across the United Kingdom, there's not many that have really seen true battle in that sense.

Diane: Yes, had like a dungeon specifically adapted or part of the castle adapted purely for the means of torture.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. And I think most people, when they think of castles, they think of that. They think that that is what an English castle is, that it is a castle with a dungeon that was set up for that. This is very different. This was specifically brought to this location to do this, and they did. And that's the difference. And like I said, there aren't many castles across the United Kingdom that have seen that kind of brutality play out to the depth that chillingham did. I don't.

Diane: You know, at the back now, you can do this walk and you can walk up to two of the lakes and they look know, they've got beautiful trees and that around when.

Diane: I was last there, the sun was shining, you've got like the blue skies reflecting in the water. But before this was a lake, this was a cesspit, and this is where a lot of the bodies from John Sage's time were. You know, deep down in there, there is estimated maybe three and a half thousand remains. So you walk up there and think, well, this is beautiful, but you're walking in hundreds of years of rotting dead people.

Diane: So this is where we start to.

Diane: Get the first lot of folklore as well. And that if you dare, you put your hand in the water, because if you do, one of the dead are going to grab you and drag you down. But apparently people have alleged to have seen people coming out of the water and walking, but ghostly apparitions, sort of slightly faded, slightly see through so is the lake area haunted?

Michelle: Gosh.

Michelle: I can just imagine there's going to be a lot of people right now listening and desperate to get to Chillingham. And if they aren't thinking that, then.

Diane: I don't they're running in the other direction.

Michelle: They are running in the other direction for obvious reasons, but I think it's the location that you've got to visit at least once, just understand that moment in history that it had. Experience the moment, the place that it had, and how important it was for events, for where we all are now today, I think. And so it's a place that I really do recommend everybody goes to visit. Yeah, just once. Just once.

Diane: And take your time, because it's just so bizarre, the things Humphrey has managed to acquire over the years. And you can go into the little museum area, it's just one of the rooms. There's all sorts of news articles there, and books and strange dolls, prams and creepy dolls. It's just like a little Aladdin's cave of things to poke around and have a look and maybe come across something really interesting, which I did last time I'd been down at a heavy horse farm and managed to take a photograph of a funeral carriage, all sort of like in black ebony with angels and everything on. And then I was up chillingham the following day and there is a news article, how it was helped to be restored, and there's a picture of it outside chillingham that's just a little bit strange and bizarre, but I think treasure.

Michelle: Trove is a perfect word. It's just a collection of so much interesting things to observe, to see, to hear, to experience. And again, that's why I come back to it's just a place that someone has to go to at least once to experience. And I think you've done a fantastic job of sharing that history, sharing your passion for chillingham. Because I think when a location does that for someone, it really speaks to the power and the presence and the atmosphere that a location has. And you've captured that, I think, so brilliantly.

Diane: Well, thank you.

Michelle: Thank you so much for your time in coming in and chatting with me today. And I'll say goodbye to everyone.

Diane: Yes, well, thanks ever so much, Michelle, for having me.

Michelle: Because there is so many ghosts, that's the problem. We could have multiple, multiple podcasts. There's hundreds, there's hundreds. We could do some more chatting at another time. That would be fabulous. Anyway, I will say goodbye for now and bye to everyone. Bye.

Michelle: If you like this podcast, there's a number of things you can do. Come and join us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. Spread the word about us with friends and family. Leave a review on our website or other podcast platforms to support the podcast further, why not head on over to join us on Patreon, where you can sign up to gain a library of additional material and recordings and in the process know you're helping the podcast continue to put out more content. On a final note, if you haven't read it already, then you can find my piece In Search of the Medieval in Vol. Three of the Feminine Macabre over on Spookeats.com or Via Amazon. Links to the book will also be in the episode description. Thank you everyone for your amazing support.