The Last Experiment: Thomas Bradford's Quest For Proof With Sarah Blake

0:17

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2:07

Welcome to Haunted History Chronicles, where we delve into the mysterious, the macabre, and the untold stories of the past.

I'm your host Michelle, and today we are journeying back to a cold winter night in 1921 to explore the life and death of a man who believed he could unlock the secrets of the afterlife.

2:33

On February the 5th, 1921, Professor Thomas Lynn Bradford closed his bedroom door, blew out the pilot light on his heater, turned on the gas and laid down on his bed.

Bradford was just 48 when he took his own life, a tragic event under any circumstances.

2:54

But Bradford's death was far from ordinary.

It was part of the chilling and controversial experiment.

Today I'm joined by Sarah Blake from Hushed Up History.

Together, we'll examine the details of Bradford's life and the eerie experiment that led to his untimely death as we unravel the haunting tale of Thomas Bradford and his end experiment right here on Haunted History Chronicles.

3:28

Hi, Sarah.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Hello, Michelle.

I'm so happy to be back.

Thank you.

It's been a while since we have had the chance to get together and have a chat.

Do you want to just share a little bit about Hushed up history for those who may be again, just are unfamiliar with what you do and maybe give us an an update as to things that you've been doing for Hushed up history on your end?

3:52

Absolutely.

So hushed up history.com was a site that I created about almost 10 years ago at this point.

And it was an idea that came to me because I, I was writing for another website and I had all of these story ideas that I kept finding that were just amazing to me.

4:14

That these stories that were so incredible and so crazy and so out of the ordinary were just kind of buried, you know, in the, in the pages of time and not getting nearly as much recognition or, you know, eyes on it as they should.

4:32

And the, the issue with the site that I was writing for at the time was that they needed certain kind of parameters to be met as far as they were very location based.

And a lot of the stories I was finding weren't super specific to location.

4:49

They were more so about the people and the things that had happened.

So I felt like, well, I mean, they should have a place too.

So that was the onset of hushed up history.

And it's the said it's, it's been going for almost 10 years now and there's still so many stories to be told.

5:11

So I I have no intention of of letting it go anytime soon.

And that makes my little heart happy because these are the stories that I love.

Maybe the the stories that maybe aren't quite so popular in terms of people's understanding, but still have something very much still to share that can resonate and provide an opportunity to re examine something or to examine something from the first time from this unique perspective of something that maybe hasn't been shared and told in in quite the same manner before.

5:45

And this is what you helped to bring to light these stories that don't get the same spotlight, that don't have the same attention on them, that don't get shared with people in quite the same the manner.

Right.

And I mean, what is history if it's not great stories?

6:01

And who doesn't love a great story?

So every time I find something new to, I mean, I, I have a list that's, you know, hundreds of entries long and I'm still finding things every day.

And every time I do, I'm still just so excited to be like, oh, I can't wait to write about this.

6:18

This is going to be so much fun.

And this is what we're going to be doing today.

We're going to be talking about someone and their experiment that has been a feature on hushed up history, the website before.

Do you want to just give for those maybe who, who aren't aware of this individual, this gentleman, do you want to just give a, a tiny brief it, you know, overview in terms of Thomas Bradford, who we're going to be talking about today, and his experiment in terms of communication with the afterlife, what it was that he did that has become such, you know, a controversial experiment in its own right.

6:56

Sure.

So Thomas Bradford, he is a little bit of an elusive guy.

We, we know some things about him and about his early life that are, you know, broad strokes.

We know that he went to, he was a graduate of Columbia College in Chicago.

7:14

We know he was into electrical engineering, but he was also an actor.

And later on he became very, very vocal in the spiritualism community, giving lectures in and around Detroit.

And he became very, very into this world of occult studies, of metaphysical studies, of spiritualism, and being someone of this very analytical background, being an electrical engineer and other things that he had done throughout his life that were very based in cause and effect and seeing the results of things, he decided that he was going to take on the big question, is there an afterlife?

7:53

So he devised this experiment, the grandest experiment, and he carried it out.

He took his own life in the pursuit of trying to prove that there was an afterlife, but of course he needed someone else to verify that with.

8:08

So he began working with a woman named Ruth Doran, and they decided to work together to see if they could find this answer.

I think you you very much spoke of something that I think is very true about him.

Him is the fact that we, we know so little about him.

8:26

He, he is really a bit of an enigma.

We know so little about him compared to other prominent spiritualists or people who've had some notable moment or impression or something that has meant that they have become well known within the spiritualist community.

8:45

And there's no doubt that this experiment caused ripples.

It's certainly, it's certainly made people very much aware of him at the time.

But despite all of that, we really don't know a huge amount about him other than, as you mentioned, some of these changes in his career, the fact that he was married and that he was a widow, the fact that he gave lectures, the fact that he very much claimed to be a psychic himself as part of these lectures.

9:17

Other than that, we know so little about him, which in itself raises so many questions for me, that no one has ever really been able to get more about him and the motivations for wanting to do this.

I mean, we can only really speculate, which is so intriguing for me.

9:34

Right.

I mean, I mean, the few details and the details that we do have about him, they're so not directly like, Oh, well, this is definitely why he made this turn into spiritualism is that we know he went to college.

We know he did these lectures.

9:51

We know he was electrical engineering, but also an actor.

There was a the house that he was living in at the time that he took his own life for this experiment.

The owner of the house, his name was Patrick Marcotte.

He had a couple more details because they lived in the same house.

10:08

He knew that he was born in Detroit.

He had mentioned to him that he had seven brothers, that two of them were physicians, that his father was a farmer.

But other than that, it was.

And we also know that after his death, the family did not come forward in any way, shape or form.

10:25

So that raises more questions of, you know, was there a very, I mean, it seems like there would have been this very deep rift with the family.

What caused that rift?

Was there a rift because of his pursuits of spiritualism and that type of thing there?

There's so many questions about Thomas Bradford.

10:44

Absolutely.

And again, I think that's part of why for me, this case, his story is fascinating, not just because of what he did, obviously, which is a very controversial way of trying to prove or disprove the question of life after death and the existence of of the afterlife and being able to communicate with the afterlife.

11:05

Put that aside.

He as an individual is just so mysterious.

And that is very intriguing.

And you know, touching upon some of his his background, you know, the fact that he does has this does have this engineering, that background, this academic background, the fact that we do know some of his family members have again, academic backgrounds.

11:29

Again, we can only speculate.

But you we have to wonder, I think, if some of that helped to shape his worldview and his approach to scientific inquiry in terms of wanting to try and definitively prove this question of can consciousness survive after death?

11:48

I, I believe that, I believe that his background was a big role in how he chose to go about this.

Even though it was a very extreme way to go about it, it does somewhat make sense with his background.

It was an experiment.

12:04

It was something that he had planned out.

It was something that he thought about the different pieces that we're going to have to make this happen.

We, we can only assume that because he was so active in the spiritualist community that he had been to these things like seances that were happening and maybe that wasn't good enough for him.

12:24

Maybe he knew.

We do know now, unfortunately, that a lot of these seances that were happening were, were rigged, that there was a lot of theatrics that went along with these seances.

So maybe that was part of it, that he saw this and went, you know, I do believe this, but I don't believe this is the way to prove it.

12:43

So he went back into his analytical mind and said, well, what is the big question here?

The big question here is how do you prove there is life after death?

And clearly, based on how he chose to go about it, he felt that there was only one way to answer that question, and that was to experience it for himself.

13:04

And if we compare this to what was happening at the time, I mean, we have the UK with the Society for Psychical Research being established in 1882.

We have the US with the American Society for Psychical Research, you know, founding founded two years later.

13:21

These early groups had vast memberships of of all kinds of individuals, learned individuals.

And of course they were conducting their own experiments of their own to precisely study this same question of life after death.

So experimentation and questioning around this question wasn't the unusual thing.

13:41

It was very much usual within these circles.

But I think you're right when you said he has this very, you know, analytical brain to the point where he is trying to conduct this as a scientific experiment with controls and measures so that he can definitively prove.

13:58

And I think that's something that we that we see in terms of the note that was found by the police officers after his death, where he very much states, you know, this is to demonstrate clearly the phenomena of spirits.

Those are his words, demonstrate clearly the phenomena of spirits and prove that all phenomena is outside the domain of supernatural.

14:20

So again, you can see this is his end goal.

This is his intention.

Again, an extreme way to achieve it, but that was what his mind was kind of driving him to, to try and do to prove this once and for all.

14:37

And again, the question for me then comes, is it purely that science question that's burning this motivation and moving and, you know, moving him along in that direction?

Is it the the backdrop of this period whereby, you know, other learned people are also doing the same?

14:55

Is it personally motivated?

Is it the time itself, you know, just post the First World War I?

I don't know.

It could be a combination of all of them, but the fact that we don't know more about what it was that made him get to that point again, it's so fascinating.

15:10

It's intriguing for me.

Yeah, I, I do think it was a combination of things.

I, I do think it was the atmosphere, the environment that he was in at the time this was conducted, you know, not very.

I mean, this is 1921 that he conducted the experiment.

15:26

This was not long.

World War One was still very fresh in the minds of the world.

And it's after we saw it after the Civil War, we saw it after World War One.

Spiritualism had surges after these very large collective traumatic events that were experienced all over the world.

15:47

So this was something that wasn't, this was something that was accessible to him.

This is something that was spoken about.

This wasn't some like very hidden type of thing that he was really going to have to struggle to find people to discuss this, to find people that claim to have experiences with this type of thing.

16:09

This was done in a time period where this was a popular subject, where this was a subject of conversation, where there were these seances being held.

So I believe that that helped him a lot being able to have that environment where these types of things were being experimented with, whether there was a personal factor to it possibly.

16:33

We do know he was married, as you had mentioned previously, and his wife did pass away.

We don't know how, we don't know when, but he did have family members that were close that had passed.

So I, I think this was, and I mean, also like we said, he, he was a very inquisitive mind.

16:52

So I think this was a lot, there was a lot of compounding factors as to why he chose to pursue this and why he wanted these answers.

Absolutely.

And again, I think you're spot on.

I think this was a real collection of various things.

I don't think it's one thing definitive because we don't have the privilege of things that he wrote down or spoke of to other people.

17:13

And again, I think that's partly why this became so controversial and so impactful, the fact that this was done, you know, very much on his own volition, if you like.

He wasn't communicating with huge numbers of people about his thinking and his his ideas.

17:31

It was quite secretive.

Even though he does go down the route of, of placing something in an ad to garner the intention, you know, of other people, you know, it's a bit of a bit of a strange combination to say that he's being quite secretive whilst at the same time, you know, putting something out there for the general public to view.

17:50

But he's not necessarily sharing a great deal of the motivations behind it and what his intentions are and speaking to people around him that we know of because nothing came out after this event of people saying that he'd spoken of this, that he'd he'd mentioned this in in conversation.

18:08

So yeah, again, it, it's, it kind of adds to that mystery, doesn't it?

Because there's still so much unknown, because he himself didn't ever record that anywhere or share that with people.

Right.

18:24

It it's unfortunate because he, when they found him, there was a manuscript next to the typewriter in the room where he was.

And I did read a couple of places that the the manuscript was allegedly he was working on a book that he wanted to have published.

18:43

To my knowledge, I haven't been able to find anything about that manuscript, but I would have loved to have been able to read that and get a much deeper understanding of his thoughts on this, his motivations on this.

And when you you mentioned that he was being very secretive about it.

19:02

Yeah.

When he placed a newspaper ad for someone to help with this experiment, he placed it under a fake name.

And the ad was very kind of murky.

He obviously he couldn't state very clearly just right then and there what he intended on doing.

19:19

He was asking for a volunteer to take part in an experiment.

And he he termed it as taking part in an experiment of spiritualistic science.

Very vague, but intriguing.

And I think that is why this woman, Ruth Doran, who ended up being a part of this, ended up being a part of this, because you read this and it, it is intriguing.

19:43

And again, I think that's part of the mystery because, you know, various things have been published about her involvement as to the fact that she knew exactly what he was doing and knew ahead of time that she knew exactly what he was doing.

But then her police statements contradict that, with her saying that she didn't actually know in advance and her her religious position and background would have meant that she very, very firmly would have been opposed to that.

20:09

But yet what we do know is.

Despite those kind of opposing things that are recorded and put out there about her is that she did step in, she did become involved, she did find something intriguing about that very vague statement about spiritualistic science.

20:27

The inquiry of it and her involvement is then secured whereby she is going to work with Bradford to try and prove the existence of the afterlife.

Do you want to just take us through what unfolded in terms of that ad being placed and what happened next?

20:47

Sure.

It it's it's very strange and just as kind of vague and mysterious as Bradford is.

I kind of feel like the entire scenario between these two is is just as vague and mysterious and just leaves so many, so many, so many questions.

21:06

Because Doran Ruth Doran was a woman.

She was from a very prominent Detroit family, and she was very vocal about that.

She was not a spiritualist.

She was not a medium.

She was not a believer in any of this.

And she said that she actually responded to the newspaper ad just on a whim.

21:25

She was a writer, she was a lecturer.

But she, you know, she made very clear that she answered this advertisement just because it was something that she didn't know much about.

And why not?

Let's just see what happens.

So I don't know if that conflicts with or supports this at this her attitude of Oh, well, this just might be something to do.

21:48

You know, it leads into why she why didn't she stop him?

Why didn't she stop him?

That might be why because she just felt this was something to do.

She felt very, it seems like she was much more casual about this than Bradford.

And that leads into the question of did she know and why didn't she stop him?

22:07

She claims that she did not know what he was going to do.

This experiment took place in early February 1921.

They had only met a couple days before this.

They met, they had a brief discussion and she claims that when they last met, Bradford had simply said to her that I'm going to prove this.

22:32

And she just said OK, They left and then on February they've departed ways.

And then on February 5th, 1921, Bradford was at home at the boarding house that was owned by the man I previously mentioned, Patrick Marcotte.

22:48

Went into his room, placed his manuscript next to his typewriter, turned the gas on his stove, blew out the pilot light and just laid down.

And he was found.

After that, Ruth Doran was mentioned in these notes that he had left, and that's why the police ended up speaking to her and that's why she ended up making all of these statements of I had no idea.

23:12

He said he was going to prove something to me.

We were going to conduct this experiment.

I did not know he was going to do this at this point.

And it was actually her stating that saying, well, I didn't know he was going to do this.

That's what led to his death being ruled as a suicide.

23:28

I mean, it's incredibly calculated if we just think about the steps that he took in that process to prepare for this final experiment.

The fact that he's put out this ad, he's met up with this woman, he has communicated things in writing in his notes to point them to this woman, to Duran.

23:47

And you can, you can see this method behind it, this very methodical step by step laying the bread crumbs for what he's doing, what he needs to do next, but also for those stepping in after after the event to be able to follow the clues that he's leaving as to where he they need to go.

24:09

And again, there's something very disturbing in that.

But I think it very much points to his intentions here are, again, almost very, very clear, very methodical, very scientific, as we've been speaking about.

And it wouldn't surprise me if she knew nothing about this.

24:28

It really wouldn't surprise me that he had kept it so secretive.

But again, raises that question of, you know, why would she want to be involved in something?

Why?

Why was this OK with you?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's a very thing a couple days before from a newspaper ad.

24:47

And the interesting thing is, you know, this woman, Ruth Doran, it it says something about her because, you know, you, you meet this guy, he just says, hey, we're going to do this experiment, life after death.

Great.

All right, you depart.

You then find out he took his own life as part of this experiment.

25:04

But after that, I I think a lot of people, once they had been made aware of what had happened to him, would have just dropped the issue.

I'm done.

I'm not involved in this anymore.

Goodbye.

She didn't.

She firmly believed that he had this experiment in mind.

25:22

He had a goal in mind and she carried it out.

And the role that she carried out was that she held vigils after Thomas Bradford's death in her home, giving him a space to come through and contact her to prove this life after death.

25:40

This was something that she took very seriously for someone who did not know this man who claims that she was not a spiritualist and did not believe in any of these things.

But she still held these vigils.

And even though, and, and this wasn't something that she felt kind of flippant about, this was something she believed strongly about strongly because there were other mediums that came forward and said, oh, we heard from Thomas Bradford and she flat out said, I am his friend.

26:12

If I can, I believe his spirit will come back to me first.

I believed in him in life.

And I will wait to see if there's any spirit manifestation, if there is such a thing as spirit communication.

I believe He will make His presence known to me.

Yeah, I think there was a bit of a a feeding frenzy like sharks in the water.

26:32

I mean, there was a real kind of desire to be the first one to be able to share that they had had communication from him.

I mean, you had the press literally reporting no news yet.

They were all there was this eager anticipation of something.

26:48

And you're right, she she very much stuck to that in terms of committing herself to this wholeheartedly.

I mean, at one point she had a two week vigil just completely immersing herself in this, in this moment, awaiting communication.

27:04

And and that term friend, that he was her friend.

Again, I think it was something picked up at the time and has been speculated to death since then that, you know, was there more to their relationship.

Does that explain this very weird dynamic and and situation that kind of manifested?

27:24

Was there more going on between them?

Again, we don't know.

Or was she simply motivated by now?

Here's an opportunity for some kind of public, you know, awareness and acknowledgement and notoriety and fame.

27:40

Is it that?

Again, we don't know.

Yeah, we know she she was a speaker, she was a lecturer.

She did come from a prominent family.

So then it turns into were they more and this whole, oh, we only met a couple days ago.

If that wasn't true.

27:56

Or was she that type of person where she felt she had an obligation now that this man had taken his own life in pursuit of this and that inspired her to listen?

I, I have to fill my role now.

I have to, you know, fill my end of the bargain.

28:12

Or was it?

That was it.

Well, hey, I'm a lecturer.

This puts a much broader spotlight on me and my speaking and my talks that I give so many questions.

And then as you you had mentioned the two week vigil again, she very, very adamantly was, I am not a medium, I am not part of this.

28:34

But a week later, she claims to have made that contact with Thomas Bradford.

And but again, ropes in the community this this kind of communication that he's come through and he's very, very weak because he's only just made it to the other side.

28:50

And she needs the help from the spiritual community to to pray, to come together to show their support.

And of course, that then manifests in this very clear message that she then receives from him about what it was like for him, how he just woke up.

29:08

That's how he he phrased it.

He just woke up.

And then the account of what it was like for him on the other side, again, very much open to interpretation in terms of does that show she's really invested in this or does it show something more calculated?

Again, we just don't know.

29:24

It just throws more questions into the mix.

Right.

And I mean his, his account and you, you have to wonder if this was something where she was looking for like fame and fortune and to really be brought into this new spotlight and this new level of of notoriety.

29:40

She could if this was totally an elaboration, she could have made a much grander message than what she claims to have gotten from Thomas Bradford.

As you had mentioned, he just allegedly this message was I woke up and here I am and there's no major change and I actually have the the text of his message, The message reads.

30:06

I find no great change apparent.

I expected things to be much different.

They are not.

So it was just this very calm and just hey, I'm here, thanks.

And that was kind of it.

She definitely had the opportunity to make this a much grander thing if this was completely and totally fabricated.

30:27

But you also have to wonder, did she make it this?

Did it get to a point where she's like, I don't want to be involved in this anymore?

Here's his message.

He's great.

Everything's great.

I can now go about my life.

Because after this happened, she kind of disappears.

30:43

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Thomas Bradford.

33:56

And the experiment also kind of just disappeared.

It dropped off of that kind of public radar if you like.

And I, and I think you're right, it does lend that question of does this simply point to the fact that you've got this huge speculation, so this huge speculation in in the public domain.

34:18

And she then presents this very quiet, meek response from Thomas Bradford that doesn't definitively answer anything, doesn't say anything about the afterlife.

I mean, it's more theosophical than it is spiritual, I would say.

In terms of content.

34:34

Is that like you said, is that deliberate?

Is that simply to end this speculation, end this debate and the kind of the the race amongst the mediums to get something out there?

Does it definitively quash that and just end things again, just don't know.

34:50

It's just fascinating that this blows up so quickly and is so heavily dominant in the the public eye.

Yeah, I mean it lit.

Up and burns out quick when it's first happened and when it first started to come out there were newspapers reporting, you know, it's been 40 hours and nobody's heard from Thomas Bradford yet.

35:10

Who's going to hear from him?

It it was a whole ordeal with I think exactly what you said the race for the mediums to see who could hear from Thomas Bradford 1st.

And that's when we see Ruth Doran really kind of put her foot down as like he's my friend he's going to talk to me first.

35:26

So this just become too much of a thing.

Did it just become too heavy and too much to handle that she was just furious he came through 9:00 I need the help of everybody.

He says he's fine everything is great.

Thank you.

Goodbye.

Absolutely.

35:43

Which kind of is the is the, I mean, if you think about it in terms of what Thomas Bradford wanted to achieve it, it is, it does end on that flat note because it doesn't go anywhere.

And again, that's part of the intriguing aspect of this case, this terribly sad case that, you know, you have this, this man going down this route, this very extreme experimentation that fizzles out and doesn't ever really get the attention, get the interest, get the scientific discussion and the rigor that he was hoping from it.

36:22

Instead, what you have are these questions around, you know, the ethical concerns of what he was doing, the very much the, the scrutiny.

I mean, if we think about the period at the time in terms of religious beliefs with regards to taking your own life, I mean, this was incredibly controversial.

36:41

And so you have this, this very much being played out and argued about on the public in the public sphere.

But in terms of the experiment itself, beyond the, the clock watching, if you like, of it's 40 hours, it's now this.

36:57

When's he coming through?

When are we going to hear something?

Are we going to hear something after that's gone?

There's nothing.

It's not really spoken about.

So it has the complete opposite of his, of his intention, which is quite sad that he went to these great lengths for nothing.

37:14

Effectively, there's there's.

Multiple layers of tragedy in the story of Thomas Bradford.

Obviously extremely tragic that this man took his own life in pursuit of this unanswerable question.

Very, very tragic how he decided that he was going to go about these answers.

37:35

And like you mentioned, there's this second layer of tragedy in that we don't hear about him, you know, in his mind.

Again, we don't have his manuscript.

We don't know his thoughts super clearly as to what he was thinking, but it is very clear he was very motivated to find this answer.

37:55

He wanted this answer to the extent that he was willing to pay the ultimate price to have this evidence.

He sought out someone because that was the other thing, you know, he, he took the step.

He knew well, if I take my own life, I need a second party to be able to prove this.

38:13

He, he knew that he needed someone to be his voice, so he needed someone to be the proof.

So it, it is deeply tragic that, I mean, it's deeply tragic he took his life for this experiment, but there is a second layer of tragedy here that he, he paid the ultimate price.

38:33

He did this very extreme experiment and then it disappears and there were so many different circles waiting for answers.

There are so many different people and groups and belief systems that were asking this big question at the time of the afterlife.

38:51

I'm sure Thomas Bradford felt, I mean, obviously he had to have felt that this was going to make an impact.

So he may have firmly believed and obviously he had enough truth in Ruth Doran that he may have had this belief that this was going to be the groundbreaking answer.

39:07

He was going to be the one to give the information and the proof to all of these different circles, to all of these different groups to answer the biggest question that we have and it.

Just.

Fell short and it is deeply sad to think about it.

39:26

I've often.

Wondered actually that is it because of the the nature of the experiment, the controversy around it, if if that is why part of it was silence and he his name wasn't kind of spoken about in these circles.

39:44

You know, where other experimentation and other attempts to try and prove this once and for all or disprove it once and for all, why those names have continued, but yet Thomas Bradford's has just simply become the man who who was prepared to do this very extreme experiment.

40:04

Is it because, you know, what he did was quite damaging or seemed to be quite damaging?

You know, again, is this is, was this intentional?

In other words, to allow him to slip back into the shadows because of the extreme, extreme manner of which he was prepared to to take this to.

40:22

I I have wondered.

I, I was very, I was hoping that I'd be able to find something about how these formal organizations and these seance circles and these groups did it, did that, did it cool down after this?

Because people saw this extreme experiment went OK, we, we really have to take a step back here.

40:42

Did this inflamed them more?

Were there more people that were more vigorous now?

And we have to find this, We have to find the answers.

This man gave his life to find the answers.

We can't, you know, but there just seems to be nothing.

It just seems to be that this was a flash in the pan.

41:00

This was a huge story.

And then once Ruth Doran gave the message, I simply went to sleep.

I woke up.

I find no great change apparent.

It does seem odd to me that this was just taken as OK, there he is, but I I couldn't find any information as to what direct effect this man's passing had on these different groups and all these different circles looking for this this answer one way or another.

41:30

I agree, I just don't.

Think it had.

I don't think it had the impact on that scientific community.

There was no real reaction to his experiment.

There was no, there was no notable kind of critical discussion around it or comment on it from these institutions.

41:48

It's just almost as if they just ignored it, which I think speaks volumes.

I mean, the only thing that I can say and suggest that maybe hints to the impact of this is, is what we see happening just a few years later with Harry Houdini and his wife Bess.

42:04

Whereby.

You know, you have this communication ahead of his death to speak to Bess with the secret messages that he will come through and tell her if he can.

And of course, then we have the vigil on the anniversary of his death every single after that, every year Whereby Best waits to see if her husband comes through to share that message that they had agreed ahead of time.

42:33

So you can see some connection there.

And whether that was sparked by Thomas Bradford and this experiment that he had, he had, you know, carried through with just a few years before that in 1921, we don't know.

42:50

But you can see some connection there.

You can see something similar to what Bradford was doing, but in.

A manner that.

Didn't you know, wasn't necessary for someone to commit suicide and take their life in the process.

I I definitely.

43:06

Wonder that if Houdini, because as we know, when Houdini decided he was going to take on the spiritualism movement, he went after it and he had access to these people.

He had access to far more information than and connections with people than just anybody, you know, any normal person would have.

43:29

So I have wondered if somebody along the way or if he had stumbled along the way of this information of Thomas Bradford and his attempt to prove life after death through this way, and if that did inspire the the seance and the message to Bess.

43:51

But again, what is?

Fascinating is if you compare the end result of both, of both of those kind of attempts to communicate with Bess, his wife or with Duran after each of these respective individuals passed away.

I mean, we know like we've talked about, Thomas Bradford just disappears.

44:11

His name disappears, effectively he's not spoken of, but compare that with Bess and what she was doing with this communication or attempted communication with her husband, Harry.

That continues and it continues to this day.

It's still something that Garner's interest.

44:28

I mean, as far as I'm aware, it's still something that's conducted annually by the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry at their annual, you know, their annual Convention 4 precisely that to be proved or disproved.

Is this the moment that Harry Houdini is going to come through with this secret message?

44:46

So it's still something that continues, I believe to this day, still something that is.

Talked about all the time.

So then it becomes the question of, well, why did Thomas Bradford's experiment disappear?

Is it the method?

Is it because he took his own life?

45:04

Is it because he wasn't a celebrity like Houdini?

There's so many similar threads, but such a dramatically different result between the two.

Yeah, it's like they go.

Completely in opposite directions, don't they, in terms of outcome and interest and continued public interest and how they're spoken about And is like you said, is it simply because of his method?

45:30

Is it because of his personality?

Is it because he wasn't famous?

Is it because he wasn't part of an inner clique or an inner circle?

In terms of these groups, again, we don't know because it's almost like his story, who he was as an individual other than this experiment is gone.

45:49

We don't know if we don't know what his life growing up was like.

We don't know much about his family.

We don't know much about his career other than these changes from actor to electrical engineer.

We know so little about him and what motivated him, and those are some things that we still don't ever get.

46:10

And it it's, you know.

And it's the same with Ruth Doran.

We, we don't know much about her before this.

This brings her into the spotlight and then she fades.

So, you know, could this have been something that had longevity?

46:27

Could this have been something that people talked about more?

But the only voice left in this was Ruth Doran, and was it partially due to her shutting it down?

We, we don't know, and we'll never know.

46:42

Unfortunately, no.

I.

Think we're still going to be asking and wondering these same questions for a long time because it there is just so many unknown elements and moving parts to it and.

And I also think more than likely quite a lot of rumour and speculation and attempts to say things about these individuals.

47:05

I mean, we only have to think about how Ruth Duran was portrayed in terms of well, in in the press.

She was a 40 year old social worker.

Not a lot to her, but actually she was quite learned.

She was a public speaker.

47:21

We know she came from a really good family.

So contrasting descriptions of this woman, like we kind of talked.

About.

And, and the fact that the speculation was that they might have been having some kind of a relationship, again, what does that say about what they're trying to say about Ruth, Ruth's motivations here?

47:42

And yeah, just it, it muddies the water a little bit.

And I think some of those biases you can see start coming through in how they were portrayed or not portrayed.

You know, what information made it to the public or didn't is very clear that there wasn't a huge amount put out publicly that we can verify or, or look at because nobody really wanted to.

48:12

It was, it was like he said earlier, it was a bit of a flash in the pan.

It was there for a moment and then gone.

And that was it.

Yeah.

And it's interesting.

To me also, how like I I just said like was that was part of the factor as to why this story was kind of snuffed out so quickly?

48:30

Was that partially because of Ruth Doran?

Did she decide I'm done with this once this message came through?

But as we had mentioned previously, there was someone else who claimed to have contact with Thomas Bradford.

There was a medium named Lulu Mac and she's actually the one who claimed first that Thomas Bradford had come to her.

48:51

So there's there's more questions that and more questions to the mix of if this other medium Lulu claimed that she had spoken to Thomas Bradford, why didn't why wasn't that pursued more?

Why wasn't that followed up with it?

49:09

It's just, it's very, very intriguing and the how the story went and the fact that you had.

These groups of, of mediums coming together in circles to try and communicate and reported that they'd had things come through.

But again, so little reported on that.

49:26

Considering the whole idea of this was to have scientific notes and rigor and inquiry and questioning.

It's like, Nope, we're not doing that.

No, we're not going to be any interest in what's said other than, you know, almost Duran closing the door, if you like, because her, her interpretation and what she shared effectively did that.

49:50

It didn't go anywhere after that.

Very intriguing.

And I do wonder.

If Lulu Mac was given the same spotlight as Ruth Doran, if there were reporters and newspapers that pursued her and her connection with Thomas Bradford first, what was the message?

50:08

Would it have been just as mundane?

As I fell asleep, I woke up, everything's kind of the same.

Or did she claim to have a much more elaborate message?

If, if given the microphone and if given the opportunity, what would Lulu Mack have said about Thomas Bradford and what he was saying, quote UN quote?

50:28

And how would that have compared to Ruth Doran's message?

How would that have affected the legacy, so to speak, of Thomas Bradford and his experiment?

I I think it's a.

Really perfectly valid, valid question and and thing to raise.

And it is almost like her story wasn't that particularly interesting to the to the headlines in the the newspapers because she, again, she kind of came into the spotlight and disappeared just as quickly too.

50:55

You know, she says that he came through, but his voice was too weak to be heard by the world.

You know, she shares some of his stages of this spiritual journey, but again, he's too weak.

But then again, we don't know anything beyond that.

And so again, is it because is it because these women weren't particularly interesting and exciting to keep reporting about because it's now really them and their news, isn't it?

51:17

It's not about Thomas Bradford, is it, because they're not particularly inspiring in what they're saying?

Is it starting to lose that interest?

Is there something else going on?

Again, it just raises so many other questions that don't have an answer to it, don't have something tidy and neat at the end of that kind of journey in terms of what was going on here.

51:38

It'd be so fascinating to have been, I think, part of the newsrooms actually, when this broke, this story.

Broke to what was happening behind the scenes and how they wanted to report it.

Because I think that's a big part of it too.

What did they want to communicate?

51:54

Because I can imagine it's it would have been quite a difficult subject to raise with their readership, given this would have been very controversial because of the very nature of this incredibly transgressive society whereby suicide would have been this very destructive act against God.

52:15

I mean, it's in itself, it's a difficult thing to raise publicly and have a proper public discourse about.

And again, what we have, I think is here is it's raised in the public domain in terms of the media.

It's not being picked up by the SPR.

52:34

It's not being picked up by the American SPR.

It's not being picked up by these circles.

It it's, it's kind of forgotten on one hand, but it's in the kind of the gossip tabloids, if you like the, the, the media of the day and then it's gone.

52:50

And again, that's where it's interesting for me.

Didn't cross the line.

Yeah, that these groups were willing to very publicly speak about and give opinions about, you know, was there concerns that if there was a success in communication here, was there a concern that people that more people were going to do this?

53:12

Was it was the hand put down of just listen, quiet this because this could have ripples and repercussions that we do not want.

Is it?

Harmful for their reputation, I think, I think that's possibly something that was going on behind the scenes and and you know, I think that could that is definitely valid.

53:30

I think it would have been a valid concern.

It's not something you would ever want to endorse as a means of trying to prove this.

But to not say anything just keeps these same questions I think perpetuating, which is again just adds to the mystery of what happened.

53:50

So what would you say?

In, you know, just from your perspective, what would you say is, if you like Thomas Bradford's legacy, how do you think he is remembered today?

I think Thomas.

Bradford's story deserves to be known more, but I do think that the people who do know of Thomas Bradford, he is a very controversial figure.

54:14

And you know, another layer to the tragedy of his story is I, I don't think that's what he would have wanted.

I, I think he would have wanted to have been seen as a pioneer.

I think he would have wanted to be seen as someone who was very dedicated to the pursuits of this answer for spiritualism.

54:32

But I think he's just seen as this very controversial, different out-of-the-box figure that people are just used to kind of pushing aside.

And I feel like part of that is because we know so little and because there are so many questions.

54:53

So again, it's another another sad layer to this story of this man who wanted to answer the big questions, took the ultimate steps in trying to provide answers to these big questions, wanted to be a, you know, at the forefront of this research and getting these answers.

55:12

And unfortunately, for multiple reasons, known and unknown, it just, it didn't unfold for him in such a way.

And I think.

How you just phrased that is exactly right.

It's this known and unknown.

There's so much about him hushed up, which is why he makes for such perfect discussion.

55:30

I think for your website.

There is so much hushed up about him and yet things known about him at the same time.

It's this real dichotomy there is.

There does seem to be this secrecy to him that is very intriguing and I think sad because I think you're right.

55:48

I don't think he necessarily wanted to be the person remembered, you know, in this manner, certainly.

But I also don't think he wanted to be remembered for many of the things that he is.

I think he wanted to be a man of science.

And I think that's what motivated him and drove him to do it.

56:06

And it's it's sad.

It's terribly tragic that instead it's all become rather tangled and messy and like he said, controversial and as it, as it should be.

I mean, it's not something we should ever endorse.

But no, no, not at all.

56:23

I, I think we lose the man behind what it was that he was trying to achieve.

And if we think about it, you know, there are other people, other controversial people who have done things in the name of science, whether it is deliberately infecting themselves with something to try and, you know, advance medical science.

56:41

You know, we have seen other controversial steps people have been prepared to take to prove something, to advance something for mankind, for humankind.

I think he saw himself like that.

And instead he's just become, I don't want to say someone in a way ridiculed, but I, I think controversial is definitely the description for him.

57:05

He polarizes people and.

I, I absolutely feel he, he truly felt he was going to be a, a big name in spiritualism, that he was going to be one of these people that changed the world and changed how people thought of spiritualism.

57:24

You know, the at the same time that there were all of these seances and discussion and studies, there were also people that were steadfast in ridiculing it and.

Saying that this was.

Nonsense.

There is no life after death.

I feel like he also really believed that he was going to be the one to change people's minds and educate people and, and bring this to light.

57:49

And the fact that he didn't, I, I think he, I think he, he would have been disappointed at how it's just kind of been dismissed.

Honestly, it's it's so.

Fascinating having the chance to to talk about him further with with you today.

58:05

I mean, it is such an interesting account and you know, I very much recommend people going and reading the, the blog that you wrote for the website on hushed up history, but at the same time taking a taking a nosey around because there's equally incredible content, which I think prompts and provokes support.

58:26

You know, I've said to you before, I find myself on there quite a lot and going back and rereading and, and just pondering these things because they are moments of history.

They are moments of fascination.

They are intriguing.

There's something very different about all of them that just give that little bit of a a moment to something where you can think about something from that perspective of what was going on or from that individual and what they were doing or whatever it is that that story has to share.

58:53

And like you said earlier, history is about stories.

And this is a perfect example of a story that we shouldn't forget, that we should still be considering and thinking about for so many different reasons.

Agreed.

Agreed, a lot of reasons why Thomas Bradford should still be discussed and known.

59:13

Honestly, it is such a.

Pleasure to chat to chat with you about it.

Sarah and I will make sure that as part of the podcast description notes, obviously, you know, links to hushed up history are on there and your social pages so people can easily find you.

And of course, if they venture to the website, those links are already up there for you from previous episodes that you've kindly come in, talk to me about, you know, previously.

59:36

So if people haven't heard some of those, they can obviously listen to some of the previous episodes you've been part of.

Because like I said at the start, it's always a pleasure to chat with you and to get the chance to to dive into a topic with someone who I think has a little bit of a brain like mine.

59:54

I I was so happy to get your e-mail because every time we have chatted, it has been such an absolute pleasure to discuss these things and the things that we've discussed are so all over the place in the best way.

Yep.

1:00:10

So I.

Think the.

Last time we talked was about werewolves.

Yep.

What was?

That.

We've talked about yeah, so yeah, but it's been an it's always an absolute pleasure to talk to you about anything.

1:00:28

You you could contact me and and say, hey, can we talk about spoons and I yes, tell me when and.

Actually, there are some really interesting conversations you can have about spoons because they used to decorate beautifully.

1:00:43

So yeah, we could literally talk about spoons.

We could talk about anything.

I think our.

Conversations are like speed dating.

We go from one topic to another topic.

And honestly, we will have to.

1:00:59

Do this again soon and maybe pick up on some, you know, a different medium or case or something.

So we'll try and do something like that hopefully soon because I think there's so many, so many individuals and and people that were really part of this movement because it really did explode during this time frame, particularly the the post First World War period.

1:01:24

And like you said, other times of war, you see these surges and you get some really interesting people come through that again, maybe we don't know enough about, we don't talk about enough.

So we will have to do this again soon because it's so interesting.

Absolutely.

Anytime, ever and I will say goodbye.

1:01:42

To everybody listening, thanks everyone.

Bye.