Time's Illusions: Exploring the Phenomenon of Time Slips With Dr. Ann Winsper

Michelle: Welcome to haunted History Chronicles, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of the past one ghostly tale at a time. I'm your host, Michelle, and I'm thrilled to be your guide on this eerie journey through the pages of history. Picture this a realm where the supernatural intertwines with the annals of time, where the echoes of the past reverberate through haunted corridors and forgotten landscapes. That's the realm we invite you to explore with us. Each episode will unearth stories, long buried secrets, dark folklore, tales of the macabre, and discuss parapsychology topics from ancient legends to more recent enigmas. We're delving deep into locations and accounts all around the globe, with guests joining me along the way. But this podcast is also about building a community of curious minds like you. Join the podcast on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to share your own ghostly encounters, theories, and historical curiosities. Feel free to share with friends and family. The links are conveniently placed in the description for easy access. So whether you're a history buff with a taste for the supernatural or a paranormal enthusiast with a thirst for knowledge, haunted history chronicles is your passport to the other side. Get ready for a ride through the corridors of time where history and the supernatural converge, because every ghost has a story, and every story has a history. And now let's introduce today's podcast or guest. In this episode, I'm honored to be joined by Doctor Anne Winspur, a renowned psychical phenomenologist whose expertise in the realm of paranormal research is truly unparalleled. Doctor Winsper holds a PhD in the psychology of electronic voice phenomena and is the recipient of the prestigious Michael Benteen Award from ASAP in 2021. With her extensive background and avid interest in the paranormal, Doctor Winsper has dedicated years to studying one of the most intriguing phenomena of all, time slips. Join us as we explore the enigmatic world of time slips, where the boundaries of time blur and individuals find themselves inexplicably transported to different eras or moments in history. Together with Doctor Anne Winspur, we'll examine the common sensations and experiences that filter across these encounters. We'll delve into historical examples that have captivated the imagination. Examining the geographical and cultural factors that may influence the occurrence of time slips, Doctor Winsomer will share her insights into the theories behind this phenomenon and shed light on the ongoing quest to understand its true nature. From the more unusual cases that challenge our understanding to the practical implications of studying time slips, this episode promises to be a fascinating exploration of a phenomenon that continues to both mystify and intrigue. So join us as we embark on this journey through the shadows of time with Doctor Anne Winspur. Hi, Anne.

Michelle: Thank you so much for joining me this evening.

Dr Ann Winsper: Thank you very much for asking me.

Michelle: Would you like to start by just introducing yourself and sharing with the listeners a little bit about your background?

Dr Ann Winsper: Sure. So, I'm Anne Wincburg. I describe myself as a psychical phenomenologist, partly because most people can't even say it or spell it, but also because I think it covers what I do. So I look at people's experiences of apparent paranormal phenomena. I started off with an interest in the paranormal at a young age. It fascinated me. And when I was a teenager, I had a number of experiences which to this day I can't quite explain. And that cemented for me that I had a lifelong interest in the subject. I formed what is termed nowadays as a ghost hunting group. But we were a paranormal investigation group way back in the mists of time with a friend of mine, Steve Parsons. We'd realize that a lot of people out hunting the supposed paranormal weren't doing it in any sort of scientific fashion. So we created a group to do just that, try and use scientific principles to investigate what was actually going on. We went to a conference in Liverpool where all the academics were discussing the subject, and they basically snubbed us because we were just the ghost hunters from down the road, which annoyed me enough that I went out and got a psychology degree while still working full time. And then all the academics started saying, oh, well done. So when are you starting your PhD? Which annoyed me again. So I did finish a PhD in 2020. It's in psychology that I was looking at electronic voice phenomena and how people are perceiving voices, apparently from the dead. So that's sort of a quick overview of my career in the paranormal.

Michelle: But it's such an extensive background, and your experience really is second to none, academics aside. I mean, you have been working and interested in this area for such a long time, and I think the fact that you are sharing information, that you are putting things out there in a really positive manner, is fantastic. And I think one of those areas is obviously what we're going to be talking about tonight, which is the time slip phenomenon, which is a brilliantly fascinating area of the paranormal that you quietly get on with research and collecting case studies and so many other things that I think it would be really interesting to be able to talk about that. Just that one aspect of something that you do with the listeners tonight. And I don't know if you want to start from that kind of beginning point of maybe just explaining. For those that don't know what a time slip is and how it presents what you would describe it as being. Exactly.

Dr Ann Winsper: Okay, it's a bit of a slippery definition, and I'll explain why in a moment. So it's generally an anomalous experience where the person who's experienced it appears to have moved or traveled into a different historical time. Usually the past, but sometimes the future as well. A time slip is really a general term, but it can transform into other experiences. For example, there is a bit of a grey area between a haunting and a time slip. So I usually go by the definition that a haunting experience is usually confined to a figure or a group of figures, whereas a time slip involves the scenery around the percipient changing as well. So, for example, a ghost might appear as a figure in a location, whereas in a time slip, the whole location and all the people within it appear to be solid, but from a different time. People can also interact with the figures seen within a time slip, and there are a few instances of objects actually being brought back from a time slip. There's also a few experiences that have been reported to me that don't quite match this traditional time slip experience, but they are still time anomalies. So I tend to lump those under the time slip experience as well.

Michelle: Well, hopefully we can get into some of those as well, because, again, those unusual ones are sometimes really intriguing to be able to compare alongside the more common sensations and experiences. And I think that's probably the next logical kind of thing to maybe ask you about, which is, are there common sensations, common experiences that are reported in terms of what the person experiencing that moment has as a perception, in terms of maybe how it impacts on their senses or something else.

Dr Ann Winsper: For example, a very, very common thing that's reported is that people talk about a dimming of the light and quietness. Everything seems to go quiet. It's not always the case, but it does seem to be a defining factor in a lot of cases. One of the witnesses said to me it was. It was like when there was a partial solar eclipse and the sky, everything went a bit darker than it should have been. Those two things tend to be the most common things that are reported during these time slips.

Michelle: So could you share some historical examples of time slips that are particularly interesting and well documented?

Dr Ann Winsper: Yes, of course. Well, the most famous one is the mobile yardain experience at Versailles. So there was a book published in 1911 called an Adventure, and it was published with pseudonyms by two women who told the story that had happened to them. They'd visited the palace of Versailles in France. They'd wandered through the rooms and then they decided to visit the. It's a nearby chateau that was given to Marie Antoinette by Louis XVI. So as they were walking along, they encountered two men wearing tricorn hats and long green coats standing by a wheelbarrow. They asked for directions and the man very curtly said, go straight on. They repeated the question to him because the answer just seems. They described it as casual and mechanical, but they received the same answer. They did notice a cottage on the right with a woman and a girl standing in the doorway. And they both had white kerchiefs tucked in their bodices, and the girl's dress was down to her ankles, and the woman was passing a jug to the girl. And both witnesses said that they seemed to pause like they were in a tableau vivant. They carried on, but the path didn't seem to be going in the direction they'd expected. Then mobile. He describes an extraordinary depression had come over her which steadily deepened. She didn't find any reason for it. She says she wasn't tired and she was becoming more interested in the surroundings. Jourdain describes there was a feeling of depression and loneliness about the place. She began to feel like she was walking in her sleep. And she describes the heavy dreaminess being oppressive. They then approached a small circular building with a man seated on the steps. They describe him with an expression that was evil yet unseeing. They then heard footsteps behind them, but when they turned round, there wasn't anyone there. They then realized there was a young, agitated lad standing next to them, which shocked them quite a bit because they hadn't seen him appear. He told them they should follow a different path, and when they turned to thank him, he'd vanished. Mobili describes everything looking unnatural and unpleasant. There was no effect of light and shade, and there was no wind in the trees. They eventually found the petit Trianon and the land before it was rough grass with a woman sitting, sketching. They describe her in detail in the book. They went up to the building and suddenly a boy appeared from a door in the building next to the Trianon. He offered to show them the way in and he was insistent that they didn't enter in the way they were planning to. Once they were there and inside, the atmosphere lightened again and they enjoyed the rest of their trip later on, comparing their experience, because they realised something wasn't quite right about the atmosphere and the events. It transpired that only Mobiley had seen the woman sketching. But after looking into the history of Versailles, they decided they'd actually been back in time to 1789, due to the clothing of everyone they'd seen. And the sketching lady apparently bore a great resemblance to Marie Antoinette. The other events with the people they encountered also seemed to fit with the people who'd actually lived in Versailles just before the revolution. They did go back three years later to retrace their steps, but everything seemed completely different. Some of the smaller buildings were now in ruins and the door the young lad had run out of had been boarded up for 15 years. Now, these claims have been derided over the years. The Society for Psychical Research reviewed the book and decided it was all misinterpretation. A study of the experiences seemed to show that the events had been embellished over time, and much was made of the fact that both women had described paranormal experiences before. One possible explanation was that the french poet de Montesquieu used to give parties in the grounds where his friends dressed in period costume and perform tableau vivant. And the ladies may actually have gate crashed a gay fancy dress party. But despite all the explanations, there is a core of the experience there that I think you can't explain, particularly with the descriptions of the light dimming and the sounds being quieter. The other really well known story, I think, is the Kersey time slip. This occurred in a village in Suffolk in 1957. One Sunday morning, 315 year old Royal Navy cadets were taking part in an orienteering exercise, the route of which took them through Kersey, a village they hadn't been in before. When they walked into the village, the atmosphere changed completely and everything became quiet and still. The church bells were silent. There was no smoke from the chimneys and there was no wind. The street was deserted, with no cars, no aerials, street lights or telephone wires. All the houses looked old and decrepit. They looked through the window of the first house and it appeared to be some kind of butcher's shop. They noticed there were three oxen carcasses within, which were green with age. The next house also appeared uninhabited and looked old. They'd got scared at this point and they ran back the way they'd come from. When they reached the top of the hillock, they turned back to look at the village and they were astounded to see that the church bells were ringing, smoke was coming from the chimneys and the village again appeared inhabited. They described an overwhelming feeling of unfriendliness and they had a feeling that they were being watched. Many years later, one of the trio contacted Andrew Mackenzie, a member of the SPR, and he flew over from Australia to go to the village again, this time with Mackenzie. The butcher's shop was a private dwelling and it had been back in 1957, but the house actually dated from 1340. They could only trace it being a butchery back to 1790, but it had been a butchery for some while. One thing they described was that when they entered the village, the season seemed to change from autumn to spring. And when they were in the village, they couldn't see the church at all. The church was actually being built in the 14th century. So looking at all the evidence, it is possible that they travelled back to 1349, when the village had been ravaged by the plague and the building of the church had been stopped for a while, so they wouldn't have been able to see it, which also fits in. And I've got one other that I'd like to mention, because it's a slip into the future. These are nowhere near as common as slips into the past. So this is Sir Robert Victor Goddard. He was a senior commander in the RAF during the Second World War. In 1935, he took off in an aircraft travelling from Andover to Edinburgh. When he got near to Edinburgh, he passed over an old RAF airfield in Drem, which had been abandoned. A few days later, he took off on his return flight, but not long after takeoff, he ran into a rainstorm, where he was enveloped in strange yellow clouds. He tried to rise above the clouds, but to no avail. Suddenly, the clouds cleared and he reduced height and looked down. He could again see the airfield at Drem, but this time it was a hive of activity, with mechanics in blue overalls and four yellow planes on the Runway. One of the planes was a monoplane, which he hadn't seen before. After flying over Drem, he again was enveloped in rain and yellow clouds, after which the sky cleared and he continued back to Andover. He did tell his colleagues, but they mocked him for his story. However, in 1939, the airfield again became operational. The training aircraft there had been changed to yellow, and the crew's overalls have been updated from brown to blue. And there was also a monoplane station there. So he does seem to have gone forward in time rather than backwards.

Michelle: That's a fascinating one. I mean, they're all fascinating, but, gosh, there is, as I say, I think when you hear them, you really can understand and really appreciate them for the. The mysterious nature of them, the quality that they have that is really quite intriguing. That draws you in as to what the experience is. And I think one of the really very compelling aspects to many of the accounts is how often the encounter is experienced by more than one person, which to me makes it a little bit more compelling when it's something that's being experienced by someone other, other than just one single person.

Dr Ann Winsper: It certainly makes a lot of difference when you've got multiple witnesses who describe the same thing. Obviously with cases like the ladies at Versailles, it's difficult because they did discuss the case between themselves before they actually wrote the book. And obviously, ideally you want to speak to the witnesses individually before they can cross contaminate each other. But yes, the fact that people are having these experiences not just solo, but with other people who are seeing the same thing as them, it certainly makes it more intriguing.

Michelle: Do you have any particular unique cases of time slips other than the one that seemed to go forward in time that for you, is particularly noteworthy?

Dr Ann Winsper: Yes, there's two very similar ones. One of them was told to me by a lady, and it happens in Liverpool, in Castle street in Liverpool. So I'll tell you exactly what she told me. So she said in 1996, my friend had recently finished school and got a job in a solicitor's office on Castle street, opposite the town hall in Liverpool. Me and another friend decided we will go and meet her from work. Having never been any further than the top of Lord street, we joked that we will probably never find it as neither of us have been to Castle street before, and we stopped to ask a lady for directions. She pointed us in the right direction and we followed her instructions to walk past boodles and turn right. The sky went dark and it started to rain. Huddled under our brolly, we started walking, walking and turned on to Castle Street. I don't remember passing the law courts or the Victoria monument, but we passed a series of roads instead, with buildings that had slight type roofs. As we walked up Castle street, there was no traffic, just the odd black car. I didn't take much notice of the type, but both of us presumed it was a pedestrian only road due to the cobbles. We joked to each other about how all the businessmen were wearing long black coats and bowler hats. Some of them had umbrellas and others had canes. We knew this area was the business district, but with neither of us ever having been there, we didn't think it strange. I remember walking past a gentleman in Ebola hat who looked at me very strangely, and I joked to my friend, as I didn't realize people still dress like this. After walking up Castle street, we finally came to the end, looked up at the town hall, and all of a sudden traffic started coming up the road from behind us. We looked around and saw we were standing in front of the solicitor's office where we were going to meet our other friend. We then continued down Dale street to catch the bus. Neither of us thought anything else of it until we told our friend how we thought it was strange that the city gentlemen still wore bowler hats and carried canes. She looked at us both with a bewildered look and said, it's 1996. Of course they don't. So what struck me about this particular case was the fact that they walked up what they assumed was pretty much a pedestrian only street, which in the current day or in recent years certainly was certainly not pedestrian only. It had cars, taxis and buses going up and down it. So how would they manage to get up the street without being run over by a car? I've read another experience recently. I won't go into full details, but the relevant bit is that the person was waiting to turn out onto a busy road in their car. The surroundings appeared to change as if they were from a previous period of time, and they turned out onto the now deserted road and carried on driving. And some short distance away, all the traffic returned behind them. How did they manage to get onto the road without causing an accident?

Michelle: My brain is literally, like, buzzing. I'm trying to, you know, you know when you have a big question that you want the answer to and you just can't grasp the answer because that's just so uncanny. I mean, like you said, how is it that that is possible without causing an accident, or likewise not being hit by something? If you're going down a route that is, is not pedestrian only? I mean, that is just so spooky. I mean, so again, just, you want the answer to the question, but you just can't get to it because it's just so unfathomable. But again, just make some very compelling examples, I think, of the experience whereby it does lead to that very big question of how is that possible without this happening as a result, if this was something else, if it was something that you could explain away so easily. Yeah, very compelling examples. Those are fascinating.

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Michelle: Some of the examples are accounts of different types of time slips.

Michelle: There does seem to be some pattern.

Michelle: With some of them and correlation in terms of the geographical location and the occurrence in the reporting of time slips. Are there certain locations that seem to be more prone to this phenomena in your experience, and do you have any thoughts as to why that might be happening?

Dr Ann Winsper: When I originally started looking at time slips, it was because I used to have a regular slot on radio Merseyside, the local BBC radio station, where myself and my paranormal partner, as I call him, discussed paranormal phenomena. And we started getting reports from listeners about apparent time slip experiences. And a lot of them appeared to centre around Bold street in Liverpool. We assumed that there must be something special about Bold street. And we did try to come up with a hypothesis why this might be so. One of the theories we came up with was that it might have something to do with the underground railway that runs under Liverpool. Maybe that was causing some sort of effect that was making people have these experiences. However, in the years since then, I've had reports from all over the world, from busy city centres, small villages, and I just can't find any unifying factor. There have been a lot of reports from Bold street. Why that should be, I just cannot fathom at all.

Michelle: And I think, again, it's one of the things that makes it so intriguing, because maybe you start to think that you can formulate some kind of an idea, maybe, or theories. But then again, I think as you keep gathering evidence and experiences, it's adding to that body. So it's just, again, makes it trickier, doesn't it, to find common, you know, common things across them in terms of what could be behind them. There has to be something. There has to be something. I think about the geography in some of the examples. It's just, again, the question of what. And, you know, you mentioned the idea of the train being one factor, you know, could be so many different things, couldn't it, in terms of ley line, something to do with the location itself, whether it's located near water or something else. I mean, there's so many theories and possibilities, it's a hard one to pin down. Like most things in the paranormal, we have lots of ideas.

Dr Ann Winsper: But I was just going to say it's like everything in the paranormal, because you can't stick it in a laboratory and test for it. These things are happening outside while people are going about their daily business, and it's almost impossible to try and work out why something has happened to a certain person in a certain place.

Michelle: I mean, I've often wondered if it's something to do with the experience themselves and whether they're picking up on something. You know, I've got friends, for example, who have experienced time slips, who are very much someone who experience quite, quite horrible, horrendous examples of migraines. And, you know, they can get them quite frequently, and they've had experiences of time slips, for example, and you. It's, again, you try and look for connections. Maybe that connection is a leap. Maybe some of the things that we think about are a leap, but it's. You don't start to kind of come to some kind of an idea, I think, until you start. Start gathering a really large body of examples whereby you can hopefully try and make connections. But again, everything, like you said in the paranormal, it's difficult to quantify because it's hard to pigeonhole. These experiences can vary and throw up so many anomalies and so many differences and similarities. That it can be hard to track those threads. That is the common thread throughout all of them. So, yeah, and I'm sure it's a fascinating thing to explore, but I bet it scratches your head at the same time when you're trying to grapple and reason with some of that.

Dr Ann Winsper: Yeah. One of the problems we have is that, particularly amongst the more skeptical community, they can replicate certain effects under controlled conditions, but with a perfectly rational explanation. So they might say, well, we've put someone in a laboratory. We've put certain electromagnetic fields in their temporal lobe. That's made them hallucinate. Therefore, everyone who sees a ghost is this is what's causing it. And just because you can replicate an experience by doing something to someone. Or having them in a certain emotional state or a certain psychological state, that doesn't mean that's what's causing it on the outside.

Michelle: In your opinion, what distinguishes a genuine time slip experience. From other paranormal phenomena or psychological factors, would you say?

Dr Ann Winsper: A lot of the witnesses I've spoken to have been initially reluctant to tell anyone. Because they're afraid of being thought that someone thinking they're mad. I mean, some of them have contacted me when they're in their seventies and eighties. And they haven't told anyone before because it was such a striking experience. And they were so afraid that people wouldn't believe them. They all seem to have the experience of something not being right. Like I said before, the lights dimming, the sounds muting. There could be a psychological explanation, but these are profound experiences that shake the witness up. And again, as you said previously, there's frequently more than one witness. The commonality is something strange is happening with time. Which may separate them from hauntings. There may be a historical figure in a haunting, but in that one, it's the figure that gives the pause, not the feeling that time has done something odd. It's always time that's involved in these. Rather than just the actual figure or the experience.

Michelle: And is there anything about the kind of the post state, the post experience that sets it apart as well in terms of the impact and the effect that it has on them as they come out of that moment and again have realized that there was something very odd in terms of what has just happened to them. That experience that they've just had.

Dr Ann Winsper: It's certainly a profound experience for people. A lot of people up to now have just kept it to themselves and locked it away in the bit of the brain where you hide stuff that you don't really want to think about because it's a bit concerning to think about it. I think probably nowadays more people are becoming aware of what it is, so they can then hopefully assimilate it a bit more easily and discuss these experiences and what they might mean. But certainly many years ago when I first started looking at this, these were such profound experiences that people remembered them in great detail. I know when people have an experience, when they repeat it, they inevitably embellish it. But these people, if they have told people in the past the story is absolutely the same over time. There's no embellishment, there's no adding bits on the story is the story, and that's how it stays in their memory.

Michelle: And you hinted earlier that, you know, from your research you've got examples of cases from all around the world and that it's really quite common. Just how common? Based on that data that you got and that research that you have, would you say something like this is as an experience?

Dr Ann Winsper: I actually believe now that it's very common and it may be happening much more than we suspect. So I'm going to give you two examples for this, which appear at first 1st sight to be slightly at a tangent. But over the last twelve months I've come to a realization that they could quite possibly be tied in with the same thing. So the first one is the disappearing car phenomenon. So I'll read out an experience. So there's a highway, Winnipeg and Star book, the number two in Canada, where there's been reports of cars disappearing when passing other cars. I didn't believe it until it happened to me last Thursday. I was driving to Starbuck, the town, when there was a blue car behind tailing me. So I slowed down so it would pass me. The car started to pass me, went into my blind spot, and when I shoulder checked to watch it pass, it wasn't there. There was nowhere for it to turn off. It didn't turn into a side road, it had just gone. It freaked me out. And when I told my coworkers, they said it happens to truckers that work for our company all the time. Cars pass the trucks but never actually pass them, they just disappear. And another one. I was following a car the other day, a pretty distinctive one. It made it through the traffic lights and I got stopped just after the lights changed. I looked in the rearview mirror and I saw it behind me. The same car, same registration number, the roads we were on. There was absolutely no route it could have taken to get behind me in the time the lights took to change because of all the traffic, one way streets and other traffic lights. Even the highest performance car on clear roads, hitting all green lights, wouldn't have been able to get behind me in the time I was at the lights. So the other phenomenon is reappearing people. So again, I'll read out what was related. Once my cousins and I were taking a trip on a bike path. I don't remember from where, but we were riding our bikes to Corona in California. The bike path is a straight route with forest on one side and a river on the other. About 30 minutes before making it to Corona, we saw an elderly couple walking slowly towards the same way we were biking. The elderly man was in a wheelchair with an orange flag attached to it, and the woman, which I'm assuming was his wife, was pushing him and she had a large cloth grocery bag. So we sped past them. Upon arriving at our destination, we were shocked to see the same elderly couple walking towards the end of the bike path. How did they make it to the end so quickly? We don't know. There was no way someone could have picked them up in a car because cars can't go through the bike routes. We thought maybe it wasn't the same couple, but the orange flag, the woman's short curly hair and a large cloth grocery bag were identical. And one more. I was in a small shopping centre. A woman walked by me. For some reason I clocked her, probably because she had a grumpy expression, yellow top, carrying a bag from a particular store, hair tied up and back. I turned right, exited the centre, walked down the road and towards a corner onto another road. This took a matter of seconds. All of a sudden, the same woman came round the corner and walked by me again. Every single detail about her was the same. It was absolutely impossible for her to have come from that direction. It would have taken her ages to circle back round and come from that way without her running past me at full speed and waiting there to emerge for no reason at all. So these are slightly different, but I think they're related because they all seem to be tied into some sort of weird phenomenon where people are disappearing and popping up somewhere else and cars are disappearing. And if we relate that back to where the car was pulling out onto a busy road, except it was suddenly quiet and then busy again, I wonder what the people who were on the road who stayed in this time saw. Did they see her as one of these disappearing cars? It's a possibility.

Michelle: I've often wondered if some of the other experiences that get reported and kind of lumped into, say, one particular category, if there is overlap between experiences, because there does seem to be some unusual aspects that fit very much into this strange anomaly that we're talking about to do with time and things moving from here and there. Like you mentioned, that I do think suggests, like you said right at the beginning, before sharing those examples, that this really could be far more common than people realize. And I suppose part of it is being able to interpret what it is that you're experiencing at the time and whether you can interpret what you're experiencing at the time and when that. If that then happens later, to be able to kind of make that connection as to maybe what it is that you just experienced.

Dr Ann Winsper: The problem is, if we think about big experiences, like someone walking into a village and it looks abandoned when they look back, it isn't. That's one thing. But if all these small ones are happening around us all the time, we wouldn't necessarily spot them. If someone's quite distinctive and they suddenly appear somewhere they shouldn't be, we might spot it. But imagine if it's just someone we don't notice who appears 30 seconds later somewhere where they shouldn't be, we just wouldn't notice it at all. We always say the same thing about ghosts. We could be absolutely surrounded by ghosts. But unless they do something really odd like walk through a wall or disappear, we just wouldn't know they're there.

Michelle: Well, I think I was just about to say something that you just echoed. It's this. You only notice something if it is really much more exaggerated and obvious a difference. And I suppose that's where maybe the historical examples, where you have such a noticeable period in time when there's something sizeably different about the experience, is more obvious. But what happens if you have a time slip, for example, that is much less in time, for example, where maybe the structure and the surroundings haven't really changed that much? Would you really necessarily pick up on that detail? Probably not. Those are the things that I think really could be passing us by that we're not realizing. Because it's not a noticeable change for us to spot that difference.

Dr Ann Winsper: If we have a time slip of a week, a day, maybe even a month, we wouldn't necessarily notice it.

Michelle: No, absolutely not. And I had a friend who was on an investigation where they think they experienced a time slip where they saw themselves because they heard their own voices. They saw themselves somewhere off down in this particular building. And they were absolutely flawed because it was only something that was a very small kind of unit of time in terms of the measurement of that experience. But it came away and left them with that really profound sensation of, what is it that we're really experiencing here? And what are hauntings, if you like, is a haunting us haunting ourselves. What's going on? How is it, you know, they were literally scratching their heads. It just threw so many things up in the air for them. But I think that's an example where it really does highlight that it doesn't have to be this massive stretch of time. It could be something from just an hour ago last week. But again, unless there's something in there that you noticeably spot, you might just casually carry on your way and really have no idea that something's just happened to you, that you've just experienced something and had that moment.

Dr Ann Winsper: The one that always made me laugh was a gentleman walking into Waterstones bookshop in Liverpool, and as he walked in, he saw himself coming out. But again, you've relayed the experience that your friend had, but there are lots of reports of people saying they've seen themselves. And what about doppelgangers?

Michelle: Yes.

Dr Ann Winsper: The number of times people have said to me, oh, I saw you at the shops the other day, and you didn't wave. And I'm like, you didn't because I was in work.

Michelle: And the possibility of deja vu, does this somehow have connections with that? And it's only then something that we can understand at a later date and experience that we've had. Again, I don't know. But there's so many things that you start to wonder and ponder when you start to explore time slips, I think that, again, just makes it so intriguing. And once you've opened that door, you just want to keep going. I think. So, just to kind of follow on from that. Do you think there are other factors, you know, cultural factors, historical factors, that might influence the occurrence or the interpretation of time slips?

Dr Ann Winsper: Hmm, that's a difficult one. All the reports I've had have been from the UK, Europe, America, Canada, Australia. So fundamentally the same culture. So obviously, any experience we have is tempered by cultural factors and paranormal ones are definitely not exempt. For example, in the west we like hunting ghosts for want of a better expression, whereas in Indonesia, a haunted house is considered very bad luck and you wouldn't go near it. I know this as a fact because my sister in law is indonesian and when her and my brother lived there, my brother and I were going to buy a local haunted house so we could start doing paranormal investigations over there. And the reply was, that's really bad luck and I'll divorce you if you buy it. So there's obviously going to be cultural interpretations. I haven't seen any cross cultural interpretation, so I haven't seen anyone say, oh, suddenly I was in a different country. So I haven't really seen things that appear to move in space as well as time. There may well be incidences out there. If there are, if anyone knows any, let me know. But certainly the ones that have been reported to me are culturally from the west and only involve slips in time, not in space as well.

Michelle: So why is it that for you personally, this is an area of real interest? What is it that draws you in? And do you have a particular favourite account of a time slip that really interests you personally?

Dr Ann Winsper: My interest started because of all the reports that were coming in. It was a local thing in Bold street in Liverpool, so I could go over and have a look at it whenever I wanted. And it just seemed such an interesting thing to look at. But then I have had two experiences of my own. So one was in dem Bosch in the Netherlands, a Sotogenbosch. It was in 2016. Myself and my husband had gone over there for the 500th anniversary of Hieronymus Bosch's death. And they gathered 17 of his surviving 24 paintings in the museum. And the town was full of sculptures and events to commemorate the anniversary. It was like heaven on earth for me. So one day I was. We just had breakfast and I was looking out of the window. The window in the hotel room was absolutely tiny. It was only about twelve inches high because we were on the top floor of a hotel right in the middle of the town square, almost at the house where Bosch actually lived. And I heard music coming from outside. And because there'd been so many events going on in town, I thought, great, something else I can go watch. And I looked out of the window and from one of the side streets I saw all sorts of musicians and performers coming out. They were playing music and they were dancing. So brilliant. So I grabbed my husband, I said, there's a parade. I want to go see the parade. And he rolled his eyes and went, okay. So we got in the lift, went down to the ground floor, went outside, and there was nothing, absolutely nothing. We checked all the side streets because I was going, I have definitely seen this. And there was absolutely nothing there at all. And the second experience was a reappearing person experience, which, again, is why I'm so interested in these other experiences. I was with Steve, my paranormal partner, and we were going to investigate a long standing case we'd been going to. And I picked him up at his house, and we were driving to the witnesses house, and it was on the Wirral, and there was lots of small, windy country roads. And we came up behind a cyclist, one of these middle aged men in Lycra. And obviously we couldn't get past him because it was a windy road, and we were stuck behind him for ages. We finally got to a piece of road where I could overtake him. And as we went past, Steve stuck his head out of the window and shouted at the man, which I was absolutely mortified about. But because he'd done that, he got a good look at the man's face, and we both had a good view of the man's behind because we'd been stuck behind him for so long. We carried on, went over the roundabout, down the next set of country lanes, and a couple of miles later, we were behind the same guy again. Now we know the roads around there like the back of our hands. There was no way he could have got in front of us. We know it was the same bloke, because as we went past, Steve stuck his head out of the window again to look at his face. He said, yep, same guy. So the only explanation we could come up with was that there was a set of identical twins who'd gone for a bike ride but were traveling 2 miles apart. So that's really what made me think, I've got to start looking at this phenomenon. There's something there. There's something real, and I want to know what it is.

Michelle: So would you mind just kind of documenting the kind of maybe historical research that's been done in the past? And based on your research and your expertise, what you believe maybe is the most promising direction for any further investigation.

Dr Ann Winsper: Into time sets the research that's been done before. Again, like ghosts. It's really hard to research apart from taking a witness statement and then seeing if what they've said actually makes sense with the historical record. I know Andrew McKenzie did a really detailed investigation of the three lads in the village. He did write a book about it, and. Excellent. He's done a really in depth one for the rest of the research that's been done. A lot of it is just documenting. But interestingly, there's one case that I looked at that took place on the Wirral. The lady had a very clear experience that lasted about 15 to 2020 minutes, and she could describe everything that was on the route she was walking down. And when I looked into the historical record, everything that she described had been there, but at different historical periods. So, again, that throws another spanner in the works that people are seeing actually what went on. So is there another kind of phenomenon that's like a time slip, but that suggests to me maybe she's picking up on something there, rather than actually walking through an exact time slip. The more I look at it, the more experiences there are, the more it blends into other paranormal stuff and the harder it gets to try and do the research. So the best thing really, for me is if somebody has an experience to both document it straight away and to preferably tell me about it straight away, but to chase up CCTV footage from when it happened, this is the first thing I need to people to do so that we can actually see what happens to the witness while this is happening. This is the one thing we're missing, is people on the outside just seeing what happens to the person who's having the experience. So, for me, that's the key point. I want to know what's happening on the outside and that will hopefully give us some sort of direction we can move in, because nothing might happen to them. Does that then suggest that actually, it's a mental thing, not necessarily them just creating something, but them picking up on something that's already there, like. Like a psychic experience, but in people who aren't necessarily psychic or on the CCTV where we see them disappear. Can you imagine that? That will be absolutely phenomenal.

Michelle: You'll be on six knees, wouldn't it? Exactly.

Dr Ann Winsper: But we need to develop also, I think, a state of mind where we start to notice a bit more what's going on around us, so we notice if there's something different. This is incredibly hard to do because the human brain naturally filters out most of the information around us. We couldn't move or work on a daily basis with the volume of information that comes at us constantly. So the brain is forever filtering out what it thinks is not important. So subconsciously, we might notice a woman with a red berry carrying a small dog, but it's only as she reappears in an unexpected place that our brain flags it up to us. So we need to be thinking about the things that aren't quite so startling, and is something startling happening with them. So we need to look more closely at the nature of time as well. I'm not a theoretical physicist. I've looked at some of the theories involving wormholes and multiple universes. I'm not convinced from what I've read from the physicists, but something really odd is going on with time and we need to seriously start looking at it.

Michelle: And I think you raised some really relevant things, which is about internally being aware and documenting the experience in all the detail. But like you said, trying to see if you can capture something external that's also seen that moment. And I think, you know, we live in a world now where we've got, you know, doorbell ring, capture videos that are pretty much everywhere, aren't there? So there is an opportunity, I think, to explore that a little bit further. And this is where, you know, I think you do such a phenomenal job because you have a Facebook, a Facebook group for which people can come and share these experiences. And it's a community that really does contribute, that you take such note of every experience. And this is where, you know, for people listening, if they have an interest, but also a story and account or something that comes up in the future and finding you on Facebook. And I'll make sure that all those details are obviously very easily signposted in the podcast description, notes, et cetera, come and find you, because this is where you would gladly receive that kind of information as part of what you're doing. And I think it's only through exploring more and more examples and gathering that information. And maybe if there is that opportunity then to look at video or a ring catcher video or something, then that would be phenomenal. That would be amazing. And yeah, I think it would be advantageous for people who have an interest, like I said, to come and find you to see if they can be part of sharing some of their experiences, if they have them.

Dr Ann Winsper: That would be wonderful if people could. Respectful group. We don't make fun of everyone. Every experience is valid and every experience gives a little bit more knowledge towards what we know of the subject. Even if it's just a tiny little experience. Those are just as important as the big spectacular. I walked through a village and it was different ones. Every experience is worthwhile in every experience contributes to our knowledge of what's going on.

Michelle: Honestly, it's been so fascinating to talk to you and like I said, I will make sure that those links are readily available so people can come and join if they wish to. It's certainly a community that I recommend if you're interested to go and join because like you said, it's so collaborative but also very welcoming. And like you mentioned, people listen respectfully and that's, that's kind of refreshing in this day and age in a lot of Facebook groups. So it's really wonderful to see that kind of research and sharing of accounts with, with you in the way that you conducted all. It's absolutely brilliant. So I'll make sure that those links.

Michelle: Are available for people listening.

Dr Ann Winsper: Thank you. And hopefully, hopefully we'll get a bit further in our knowledge with all these experiences that people are sharing with us.

Michelle: Absolutely. And who knows, maybe in the future there'll be something on the 06:00 news with some video of something phenomenal being captured. Who knows?

Dr Ann Winsper: Oh, I hope so. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Michelle: It would be amazing. It would be really quite staggering. But yeah, honestly, thank you so much for your time. Anne, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. You are so knowledgeable and the research that you're doing is amazing. So I really, really appreciate you giving your time to come and share some of this with the people listening to the podcast.

Dr Ann Winsper: Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been great fun.

Michelle: I've enjoyed it and I'll say goodbye to everybody listening. Bye, everybody. Bye.