Imagine! A Conversation with Attorney/Artist Michael Bogdanow

Don: This morning, I'm with my friend, Michael Bogdanow. Michael, how are you this morning? 

Michael: I'm doing great. Don. It's nice to be here. 

Don: Michael, you know, this podcast is called Higher Callings and the theme of it so far has been, I've been talking to lawyers and others who are non-lawyers about their work to support the common good, whether it's part of their paid work, or if it's volunteer work that they do in addition to their day jobs. 

You also I think have a higher calling, but it's a little bit different and I'm really intrigued by it, and I think our listeners will be very interested in it too. And that is, in addition to having a very busy and successful law practice, you also are an artist. And to me, that's a calling in and of itself. And the kind of art you do is, I find, both very beautiful and inspiring, and has some deeply philosophical and religious tones to it as well. 

So, we'll get into all of that a little later, but thank you again for agreeing to appear on this podcast.You and I have never had that conversation really. And I'm looking forward to having it today. 

Michael: Well, Don, thank you. And I'm honored to be included in a series of podcasts on the topics that you've chosen. I'm really happy to be here. 

Don: Well, let's start by talking about you as a lawyer. You told me as we were preparing for this interview that you come from a family of lawyers. Who in your family were lawyers, and how did that influence your decision ultimately to become a lawyer yourself?

Michael: Well, actually both my mother and father were lawyers. They're both deceased, but my father was a solo practitioner starting in the 1930’s and stayed solo. He was a very independent sort. My mom on the other hand, when she was in her early forties and I was a teenager, she worked full-time during the day. She was a single parent mom. She worked full-time during the day and she went to school at night, law school at night, and it took about four years, but in 1967, approximately, my mom got her bar degree. So, ultimately I was raised by two lawyers. 

Don: I kind of glossed over where you were raised, but you were in Houston, Texas. Is that right? 

Michael: Yeah, I was born and raised in Houston. 

Don: When did you start thinking yourself about becoming a lawyer and following in your parents' footsteps? 

Michael: Yeah. Well, first of all, I made it clear to my parents that I would never follow in their footsteps.

I was a teenager in the sixties and my dad often said to me that I would go to law school and end up practicing law with him. So I made it crystal clear to my dad that I would never be a lawyer. And my mom was supportive about that. My dad was disappointed. So I went off to college and majored in art. We'll come to that, I think, in a little bit on the podcast. 

Went on to grad school and got a Master of Fine Arts. And then, it's interesting, there was a time when I was at a Passover Seder. That's a big family gathering and it's almost like a service over the meal. There's a lot of symbolism, a lot of readings, a lot of singing. And a family member had graduated Harvard Law, had clerked for the U S Supreme Court, had worked for the U.S. Senate, and was talking about it. And it was intriguing to me. At that point, I was a high school art teacher. 

And, after dinner was over, big dinner, say 20 people, I was doing the dishes. And my mother-in-law, of blessed memory, came up from behind me. And she said, " You're jealous, aren't you?" I said, "Irene, I'm doing the dishes!" She said, "Yeah, I know you're doing the dishes, but you're jealous, aren't you? You were listening. I could just tell." And I said, "Oh, come on Irene." 

Well, she kind of sparked it. And I kind of realized, I had a Master of Fine Arts at that point, I was a high school art teacher. I loved making art. I could tell I wasn't a lifer as a high school teacher. That's a calling also for your podcast. High school teaching is definitely a calling. And I could tell. I had done it for a couple years and I could tell I could do it a couple more, but it wasn't my calling, I didn't think. 

And as far as selling my art, it's always great. I love doing it. I'm much better at it today than I was back then when I was 25 years old, but it wasn't enough to raise a family and pay the mortgage and all that. So, Irene kind of struck a nerve, and I did a lot of soul searching, and a lot of researching, not just law school, but business school, political science, public administration, organizational management. I just, the sky was the limit.

Don: You did all that while you were teaching art? 

Michael: Yeah. I looked into all of that. I started, I started really thinking deeply about, do I want to go back to school and pick up another degree? And I even said that to Irene. I said, "Irene, I'm like 25, 26. If I do this, I won't, it'll be, I'll be like 30 before I even graduate law school." And she got a good laugh out of that one. She said, "How old was your mom when she graduated law school?" I said, "46." She said, "Yeah. I rest my case.” So I gave it a lot thought. 

But you asked about, why law? So I ended up realizing that law was the broadest degree. All the other things I just mentioned, you could go into government if you went to the Kennedy School, and you could go into business with an MBA and all of that. They were narrow. I really felt that with a law degree, you could do anything. You could do all that. You could go into business, you could go into law, you could go into politics. I even thought I could, might want to run an art gallery. And even that, I thought, with a law degree, would be wide open. I felt the law degree just opened everything up. 

And probably having grown up with two lawyers and having actually kind of gone through law school with my mom as a teenager, I loved her law books, I loved talking to her about her classes, I was super comfortable with it. It was right down the middle of my strike zone. And so that's half the reason. 

And the other half is, I'm passionate about art. And I know we're going to come back to that. But art is very alone and very nonverbal. It's wonderful. I've loved it since the day I was born. Most of the time, you're alone in a studio painting or sculpting. Every now and then you come out of your studio for an exhibit, but that's a tiny piece of it. You're all alone and there's no talking, and I'm a talker. I'm a verbal person, analytical person. And I'm kind of right brain, left brain, kind of equal. So art wasn't quite enough to satisfy my needs. 

And I was a young parent and, or becoming one and not, not too far off, our first child was born when I was in law school. So the practical side, it was going to be hard to raise a family selling paintings. 

Don: When you described how you started thinking about going to law school, you had a very sophisticated vision of it. I went straight from college to law school, but I don't think that when I was in college, I was thinking law can open a lot of different doors. To me, law was a way to become a litigator, and that was the only thing on my mind when I went. At some point, you channeled that interest into a civil litigation practice. Did that happen while you were in law school? Did it happen after you graduated? 

Michael: Yeah, I'll walk you through it. But, just one more thing on going to law school.

So, my background was very art-based. I had majored in studio art undergrad. I had gotten a Master of Fine Arts in painting and in sculpture. And I had taught art. So I didn't look like somebody who would be applying to law school. 

So rather than hide that, I think I've told you this story once before, I'll tell you again for the podcast. Rather than hide that, I took an 8x10 color glossy of a seven foot tall redwood sculpture I had made of a horn player. And it was called “The Horn Player.” It still is called “The Horn Player.” Temporarily, for law school, I renamed it “The Expressionist.” He only had that name for about a half a year. And the first thing you saw when you opened my application was the photograph of “The Expressionist.” 

And then when you got to my essay, it explained how many similarities there are between art and law. And there actually are lot. It wasn't a BS essay. It was a legitimate essay. And I knew a lot about law because I'd grown up with it. And it turned out as I've practiced law, that everything I said in the essay was true. All the parallels between the two practices have turned out to be true. 

Don: What are some of them? 

Michael: Well, for example, I'm an appellate lawyer, but this would apply to a trial lawyer as well. As a lawyer, who's your audience? You've got to figure that out. Is your audience the jury? Okay, now, what's your message, and how are you going to best convey it to the jury? Is it non-jury? Is your audience a judge? Okay. Who is that judge? And how best does he or she listen? Is that a practical judge? An intellectual judge? A one-sided judge? And how best are you going to convey your message to that judge? As an appellate lawyer, who's my panel? Or is it the Supreme Judicial Court and what do they want to hear and how can I best convey it to them? 

Now, let me switch over to art. It's identical! See, exact same thing. Let's say I'm going to do a painting. Who am I painting it for? Who's the audience? How best am I going to convey whatever I'm going to convey so that they'll understand it and appreciate it? How will I interest them, engage them? So that's all identical. 

Now the process has started. I'm writing my appellate brief. But I'll do it parallel for you. I'm writing my appellate brief or I'm painting a painting of two people flying off of a stage at an outdoor theater. I'm writing the brief and I'm reading it and I'm being very objective. Wow. That section wasn't very good. Oh, that order was crazy. I went 1, 2, 3, but you know what? That third argument should have gone first because I'm being honest and I'm being objective and I'm not being stubborn about no, I came up with this plan and my plan is the best plan.

Now let's go back to that painting. Wow, that red dress on the female actress looks horrible. It's up against the bright green trees in the background and it's just not working. Well, I spent eight hours painting it. Really? I gotta paint out the red and start over? Yeah, Michael, you do have to do that.

So it's the same thing. Both are the same. It's paying attention, listening, being objective, changing, being flexible. 

Somebody comes to me to commission a painting. They want something, they have something in mind. A client comes to me and wants me to take over an appeal of a case. They're identical. I listened to the person with the commission. What are you interested in? How can I best do it? How do I create something that's going to work for you? Or, the client. Here's their case. Now I gotta read the trial transcript and think about how best to package it. It's just, I could go, I'm not going to take up the whole podcast, but I said all that in my essay, in part because I had been well-trained in art, but I had grown up around law, and my career has lived up to it.

Don: And I think again, your thoughtfulness in doing that and tying those two things together, but also displaying that as part of your law school application, I, that just, to me signals a high degree of sophistication at the time you were applying to law school. It's an analysis and an analytical approach that, at that time, I think you and I are roughly the same age, at that time in my life, I would not have had that level of sophistication and thinking through what's going to work best for my law school application. So that's just wonderful. 

Michael: Honestly, Don, I wouldn't have viewed it as sophisticated necessarily. I'm a risk-taker. I've been at a plaintiff-side law firm for, 30-plus, well over 30 years. And we are risk-takers. And it was a gamble. Somebody could have opened it and said, "This is a joke. Why am I looking at art? This person's applying to law school." Or somebody could have opened it and said, "Wow. That's really interesting. I haven't seen anything colorful in a law school application ever!" So it was a risk. I've always viewed it more as throwing the dice and thinking, this is going to catch their attention, and then, hopefully my application will live up to it. 

Don: Well, it paid off.

Michael: Yeah, it did. It did work. 

Don: I think your concept of risk is very interesting, because I'm probably much more risk averse than you are. And that's probably reflected in the fact that I went to the big law firms and, you know, mostly have represented defendants. We billed by the hour instead of waiting for the outcome of the case. So I think there is a, I think you're absolutely right. And I hadn't really thought deeply about this before. The plaintiffs’ lawyers, especially those who are doing work on a contingency fee, are much more prone to take risks and hope for the big payoff. 

Your risk that you took was successful. It got you into Harvard Law School. At some point, you decided to go into litigation. When did you start thinking about litigation as your career. 

Michael: So I, as we all did, I took lots of different courses in law school, and found some spoke to me more than others did. And some, I could tell, there was no way I was going into corporations or business or tax or real estate. Part of it was excluding topics that just weren't up my alley. 

But a big turning point was in the autumn of my third year. Cynthia Cohen, who went on to become. Appeals Court Justice Cynthia Cohen, Cynthia Cohen was an appellate lawyer at Parker Coulter Daley and White, which was a large insurance defense firm at the time. It no longer exists. But Cindy scheduled me for her last interview of the day. It was eight o'clock at night in the autumn of 1983. And we met. We hit it off immediately. She was looking for somebody to work for her in appellate law, something that interested me a lot because it's kind of intellectual and a lot of writing, a lot of research.

I liked oral argument. I sort of was intrigued by everything about it. But even more importantly than that, Cindy and I really clicked. And before you knew it, we were talking about how it was, now it was 8:30 at night, and both of us wanted to be home with our kids. I had a six-months old or eight-months old at the time. She had about a two-year old at the time.

We ended up talking more about kids and trying to balance work-life, and her views on the importance of men taking parenting seriously rather than creating mommy tracks for women. At the time she had strong views that the answer wasn't creating a lower track for women, it was having men be much more part of the parenting and child-raising process, which I was. I, at that point in my life, I had set it up so that I went, all my classes at Harvard Law were three days a week, freeing up two days a week that I actually stayed home with my son for a year and a half. And Margie worked those days. 

So we really clicked. And so, I went and ended up going to do appellate law for Cindy at Parker Coulter. And then not long after I got there, she left to form what was called at the time Meehan, Boyle & Cohen. And not long after that, she asked me to come join her at Meehan, Boyle & Cohen, now Meehan, Boyle, Black & Bogdanow.

So that's pretty much how I got both into litigation and into appellate law. 

Don: How did you decide on appellate law? 

Michael: Everything about appellate law, as Cindy described it to me, and it's all turned out to be true, just spoke to me. The research, the writing, the deep issues, legal issues, intellectual challenges, changing the law, creating precedent. All of that seemed just very exciting to me. And the lifestyle. As a trial lawyer, I know that when you're on trial, you can't necessarily do what I was just saying about parenting. I've seen trial lawyers, and when you're on trial, it's pretty all-consuming. With appellate law, that's only in the period of time leading up to oral argument, there's some of that. I certainly have kind of gone under getting ready for oral argument. But most of the time it's your own schedule. It's a lot of research, a ton of reading. Any time I have an appeal, I read the entire trial transcript, which can be enormous. 

Don: But you have to. I mean, you can't handle an appeal from a trial without doing that.

Michael: Yeah. And so, I've been reading two 4,000-page transcripts recently and that's, you know, it's a good thing I like the novel War and Peace, because I was prepped for reading lengthy, lengthy transcripts. So everything about it just spoke to me. And then working with Cindy was amazing and she mentored me for 17 years. And then when she became an appellate judge, I took over as the head of appellate for my law firm. So, it's just a great, it's a calling, 

Don: You know, I'm interested in your view on this. I have found that my own particular angle or approach to things, I was an English major in college. I like to write. I've always liked to write. The writing process has been fascinating to me. I think I learned a lot in college and then learned a lot more in law school about writing. When I write a brief, that brief is almost like a work of art that I'm working on, you know, and I don't think many lawyers view it that way.

I mean, it's a means to an end. You're trying to persuade a court. And of course the quality of the brief is going to make a difference, hopefully, in persuading the court. But there's something even beyond that, you know? I want the finished product to be something that I'm really proud of. That when the court reads it, not only will they be persuaded by its contents, but they'll be impressed by the quality of the brief so that it adds to the credibility of my side of the case. 

To me, that's really a very similar thing to creating a work of art, you know. And I'm not a visual artist, I'm a writer. But you want the final product to be something that you can look at, and you can say "I'm proud of that work." Is that also some of the appeal of appellate practice to you? 

Michael: Absolutely. What you just said is right on the button. 

I recently wrote about 150 pages of what I call vignettes. I wrote them for my kids and grandchildren, and someday great-grandchildren and further on, a lot about my life and my views on life and my family. And then just spin-off things, Houston, Texas. But one of the vignettes was on Russian literature because I'm a Russian literature buff. And my favorite novel is War and Peace. And I talked about it being just up there at the same level as, say, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. And so my oldest son said to me, "Well, what's your War and Peace? What do you consider your War and Peace?" And I think he meant, as a work of art. I think he was hoping my answer was going to be “The Horn Player.” Some such thing. 

I told him my War and Peace is the work I did for Reckis v. Johnson and Johnson for my law firm, a case involving just catastrophic injuries to a little girl who took Children's Motrin and there were insufficient warnings. She was getting redness, rash, and blisters. Now if you take it and you get that, the label tells you, stop taking it, but it didn't back when this happened. And she developed toxic epidermal necrolysis and just had just horrible, catastrophic injuries, life-long injuries. My law firm, led by Leo Boyle and Brad Henry, tried the case. It was not easy. Johnson and Johnson is a very formidable adversary, as you can imagine. And ultimately they ended up with about eight international law firms up against our, I believe, eight lawyer firm at the time. 

Don: And this was, was this in state court? Federal court?

Michael: Superior court. 

Don: In Boston? 

Michael: No, it was in Plymouth actually. But we won and got a very, very high verdict. 

And then it was just like all the cases at my firm, and it was passed on to me for the appeal. And I just gave that appeal everything I had. That appeal was my personal War and Peace. I worked harder than I've ever worked. Six day work weeks for a long time. I say six because I keep what I call Shabbat. The English word is Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath. I don't work on the Sabbath, but I work six day weeks and nights. And both for the appellate brief, like you said, I wanted it to be perfect, but also for the oral argument, I wanted that to be perfect. I wanted to know every possible answer to every question they could possibly ask and not have to ever even look down at my notes.

And we won the case in the Supreme Judicial Court, and we beat back a very aggressive attempt to get the U.S. Supreme Court to take the case. And ultimately the girl and her family were successful. That was my War and Peace. And yeah, I do view it as a work of art. It was probably better than my works of art are, the work I did on that case. I'm very proud of it. Proud of my law firm, proud of that little girl, and proud of my role in it. 

Don: That's wonderful. I learned a little bit about that case because your firm has a YouTube video of you being interviewed by Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly, about that case in particular. One of the things in that video is you show a, painting you did. I think it was called “Goliath.” 

Michael: It's called “Facing Goliath.” 

Don: Okay. And you talk about that in connection with the trial. So to me, that was sort of the first thing I saw that tied your legal work with your art. Can you talk about that a little bit? 

Michael: Well, as far as that particular painting, yeah, sure.

You know, the David versus Goliath story is a wonderful story. It's, you know, the Bible has so many great stories and a lot of very visual ones. And that certainly is one. And there was this little boy, you know, a little bit full of himself, a little cocky. He went on to become King David, so he had a major future ahead of him.

But at the time he was just a kid. And then you have this huge, you know, Goliath, but David uses his smarts and his talent and his aiming skills. And, before you know, it, David is the victor over this gigantic Goliath. And so, it just felt so parallel to what we had just done. Literally eight lawyers, you know, it just, it really felt . . . .

And when I say lawyers, our support staff is equally if not more important than our lawyers, but our entire firm was less than 20 people. And up against these mega international law firms, it was just very rewarding to, and especially for such a good cause, it was just really rewarding. 

Don: So let's talk about your artwork. I guess the first question I had as I was thinking about this is where do you find the time? I mean, you've done a lot of painting. I know you've done some sculpting. But you've also had a busy law practice. When do you do your artwork and how do you find the time to do it?

Michael: It's a good question, and obviously I get asked it a lot. 

I think the two answers that jump out at me, one is, it's very helpful to have had such a supportive law firm for so long. Meehan, Boyle was founded January 1, 1985. I left Parker, Coulter nine months later to join it. So I've been there for 36 years.

And for 36 years, I've been given the freedom and flexibility to maintain an art career that I'm committed to, and also to maintain a family life, and practice law. So I think step one is a supportive law firm. If the law firm said, "No, you don't, there's no time for that," or "You have to work around the clock," or, you know, "Why weren't you here last night?", then it would have been harder. So that's huge, of course. 

But the other thing is I am, I'm kind of very time-obsessed. It's an issue and a topic and a word even that I've been very intrigued by for a very long time. Your first interviewee on this podcast was David Hoffman, and years ago, probably 30 years ago, he turned me on to a book which of course right now, the name escapes me, the something of time. But it was an author who just devoted an entire book to the concept of time and to thinking about time, writing about time, the meaning of time. 

So I worked time the way we used to play the game of Tetris, if you remember that video game. It's the one with the shapes coming down and you have to fit them in together. And that's kind of how I work time. I see a small segment of time. I see an hour. And so I plug in something that fits well into that hour. I see an afternoon. I see that I'm starting a new work of art. I need a long time. I need maybe a full day if I'm going to get a new piece off the ground. You can't start a piece in an hour. It just doesn't work. But now I'm on the finishing touches of a painting. I could walk in for 15 minutes and clean up that problem in the upper right corner. And so I just fit, I really am a time manager and I'm very focused on it.

And so I watch my time for my briefs, reading transcripts. So I've been reading a couple of lengthy trial transcripts. And, I know that I can't read a trial transcript for eight hours. I just, I can't do it. I can read War and Peace for eight hours, but I can't read objections for eight hours. And so, instead, I set aside, I'll say, okay, I'm going to sit down for three hours now. I'm going to read for an hour and a half and then I'm going to stretch my legs, get coffee, walk around, and read for another hour and a half. And that's it for the transcript today. I can't, I glaze over after that. So just figuring out what works and how to fit it all in, I just do it.

Don: That actually leads to one of my questions, which is, what is your creative process? And I think we're talking mostly about painting, right? I know you've also done sculpting, but most of your work has been painting. 

Michael: Yeah. Let me touch on the sculpting really, because my training was as a sculptor, and I morphed into a painter and I'm now back to sculpting.

So let me just back up a little bit. I do remember a question that we got interrupted on, from a phone or a doorbell, but, you asked me about undergrad and all that. I started out at Brandeis, and I declared myself a theater, major, theater arts. And my reason for that was I thought it would be, cover all my interests, music, art, writing. I really thought that theater would open me up to be able to use all my creative interests. So I was in an orientation group, all theater majors. I didn't love it. I didn't love the orientation group. I didn't feel that comfortable with the group of people. It wasn't, it didn't feel right to me. I was walking across campus and I tapped somebody on their back to ask them which way to the student union. This is my first week at Brandeis. And the person looked at me and it was a guy I had known, uh, oh gosh, five years earlier in Israel for a few months when I was living in Israel for a while.

And we hadn't seen each other in about five years. And then all of a sudden, of all people, there was Robbie. And I said, whoa, this is funny. So we got into a conversation and he said, "You know what? You shouldn't go to the student union. You should go meet Peter Grippe. That's the opposite direction. He's a sculptor and you should be studying with Peter."

Now, how Robbie knew that, not having seen me since I was 13 and not even having stayed in touch since then, is beyond me. But he kind of told me, he said, "Turn around and head to the studio building and go meet Peter Grippe." Maybe I mentioned that I didn't love the theater, that I'd gotten off to, or I think I also mentioned I needed one more class to register for.

I went and met Peter and that became a lifelong mentor-mentee relationship. I adored him. And he was in his early sixties at the time, which of course seemed old. Now that I'm 67, that's a scary thought. 

Don: He was just a kid! (Laughs)

Michael: Yeah. He was eccentric, funny. Brilliant, a great artist, from the New York school, of the thirties and forties. And he basically told me that I was switching my major. The theater building was next door to the studio building. 

Don: Wow! The insight he had into you and your personality. It’s amazing!

Michael: He said, "You're leaving. You're gonna major in studio. And, I'm going to train you in sculpture and in drawing. And so for the next four years, half of my courses were with Peter. And it was an amazing relationship that lasted until he was in his nineties and passed away, and even continued another 10 years until his wife was about 101 and she passed away. 

And, so I actually, so that goes back to your question. So I actually was trained, deeply trained in sculpture. He was a great teacher and he taught the thought, the principles, composition, history, the relationship among art and literature and music, he just, it was enormous. So when I began my career in art, it was in sculpture. And then little by little, and I took painting of course, in college and grad school, but I was really a sculptor. 

And then little by little, I morphed into being a painter, more self-taught in painting than in sculpture where I was kind of deeply trained. And painting, it just, it solved some problems for me. I like dreams in art. I like fantasy. I like things that can't happen in real life, like two people flying off the stage into the sky. That can't happen in life and it's tough to happen in sculpture, but you can do it in painting. I also liked, when I realized I could sell prints of my painting and people who couldn't afford a few thousand dollars to spend on a painting could, you know, for 10% of that could buy a print. So it was much more accessible to people. So I liked that part. So I just kind of, without even paying much attention, noticed that I had become a painter. And I did that for 30 years or so, more even than that. 

But just in the past year I've returned and I am sculpting again. And I am so excited and I so wish Peter Grippe, my mentor, could come back to life and talk to me because I'm dying to share with him what I'm doing in sculpture and why and how it's going. 

That was not an answer to your question, but I'll go back to your question. Like the process itself? 

Don: Yeah. Does the process differ if you're painting versus sculpting? I mean, I'm sure the obvious differences exist.

Michael: There are differences, similarities and differences. To me, to sum up the art process, it's conception, and then the process, and then the final product. 

Conception can go a lot of different ways. Sometimes I'll, just something will come to me. I'll just have an image in my brain, and it just like in a flash, or literally in a dream. I've had dreams where I wake up, like, "Wow! I want to do that. That was amazing!" Or it will be from the Torah, the five books of Moses. Jacob's ladder is just so visual. Jacob lay down and he saw, and he had a dream. And in the dream, there was a ladder and angels were going up and down the ladder. It's so gorgeous. So I had to paint that. So sometimes it's like that. 

Sometimes it's a commission. Somebody will say they want me to do such and such and I'll work with them. So there are a lot of different ways. 

Sometimes every now and then it's political. I'm not a very political artist at all. But when our immediate past President shut down, wanted to shut down our borders to virtually anybody who wanted to get in, I was outraged because our country is built on people having come into our borders. That's why I'm here. And that's, I mean, that's why my family got here. 

Don: That's why I'm here. 

Michael: That's why we're all here except for the Native Americans.

And so, I was outraged. And so I did a painting of a woman and a child trying to come through the gates and enter. And so every now and then I become political like that. But for the most part it's more visual and more having an idea. 

Then comes the process. On that one, the similarity between painting and sculpture is that, similar to what I said earlier in the podcast, coming up with an idea, I sketch a ton. I research, now using Google, because I want to make sure I'm not doing something that's already been done. That doesn't interest me in the least. I want to make new things. And so if, obviously there've been a thousand Jacob's ladder paintings, but I wanted to make sure mine was different. I didn't want to paint one the way other people had done it. 

And so I want to see what's out there and I might even study. If it's a text like that I might study. What are people's interpretations of that text? What does it mean? So I do a lot of thinking and then a ton of sketching, and then start working. And when I start working, I just pay super close attention to what does it look like? How is it going? Is it working? Is it not working? Is it, did I make a mistake? I've done paintings where midway through the painting, I've painted out almost the entire thing cause it just looked horrible and I had to admit, and it hurts. It hurts me. I spent 40 hours doing something and then you say, you know what? That sucked. I'm going to virtually start over. It's not easy to do that, but you gotta be honest and do it. 

And then finally the product. I've gotten better at finishing. When I was a young artist, I was so eager to move on to the next piece, I often left pieces pretty rough. Like I didn't really do that last stretch of finishing it. But that's really important too. Just like in a brief. Just like in all these other things. So now I do spend a lot of time. 

It's done. I'll then maybe move it out of the studio, into our living room or family room and live with it for a while. Look at it and think, oh, that's wrong. Or, oh, what's that black dot doing there? I just noticed that for the first time, or something like that. I will see things. And before I go public with it, before I exhibit it, before I put it on my website, I make really sure it's properly finished. And that's what I mean by product. So it's conception, process, and product. 

Don: You've already alluded to this, but your themes. I've been captured as I look at your prints by two things. One is they are visually stunning, and I see them and I just want to stop and focus on them for a while and really absorb what they show. The colors are bold and I think powerful to look at. 

And then you also have themes in them. You've already alluded to the fact that some of your subjects come from the Hebrew Bible. Some of them I think are more secular. You have themes, I think, of peace and unity. So can you talk a little bit about both of those things? I mean, visually what are you trying to accomplish? And then why do you draw your themes from religion, from Judaism in particular, as well as from secular themes that may reflect more the fact that you and I are products of the 1960s, perhaps. 

Michael: Yeah. Let's start with the themes. Cause the theme comes before the color does. 

As far as the themes go, I'm really no different from any other artists. Degas didn't just paint and sculpt dancers because somebody said, you know, I think that would be a good theme. Why don't you do that? All you have to do is look at his sculptures of ballet dancers or paintings of them, and you could tell his passion. You can tell his love for that. You can tell how engaged he was. 

I could give you that same for in artists, authors. Vonnegut and time. Vonnegut in his novels really played with time. And so he probably was even more obsessed about time than I was, than I am. And he couldn't have dealt so deeply with the concept of time if he didn't care about it. You have to care about it. And that would be true up and down the line. And I could go on and on with other artists.

So, for myself, the themes that you see recur, including Judaism, are the things that matter to me. They're the things that make up my life. Judaism has been a huge part of my life since I was born. I actually tried to move to Israel when I was 13. My supportive mother said "Fine, you go. And if you can make it a year, I'll come join you." I came home after four months, but it was a shot. I don't know who called whose bluff on that one, but I tried. I then went back to Israel for a year, after high school and before college. 

I take my Judaism very seriously. Margie and I, on Friday night, we separate the Sabbath from the rest of the week. On Friday night, we pull out a nice tablecloth. We actually, we make a challah, the Jewish braided bread. We make it together. She makes the dough and I sculpt it into a challah. And we do blessings, candles and wine and challah and others. And like I said, I play piano for my synagogue, backing up our cantor. And I play in a band that originated out of the synagogue. So I'm just deeply involved with Judaism. So it makes sense. I care so much about it. It so defines who I am that, of course it shows up in my art. 

But then, you might notice that the sky, it's hard to find a painting by me that doesn't have a sky at it.

Don: Skies of various colors, I’ve noticed. 

Michael: Yeah, you could try, and there might be a few. But I would say probably if you went on my website, almost every painting you'll see has a sky and almost every painting you'll see has at least one sphere or more, a moon or a sun or stars or the earth or two earths. 

Don: But what I've noticed, Michael, is that the skies are not passive skies, like you might see in a landscape painting. These are very dynamic skies. Where does that come from? 

Michael: Yeah, I think the sky gives me a chance to be an abstract artist. I'm not an abstract artist. You look at a painting by me and you'll see things, you'll see musicians and dancers and Torah and Wailing Wall and all of that, you know, so nobody would call me an abstract artist. But when I get into the sky, that's my one chance to just really paint and work with color. And you can almost do anything with the sky. And I can use it to hold a painting together cause it can be any color. It could be blues or reds or yellows, oranges, purples, whites, blacks, grays. You can just pretty much go anywhere with the sky. And, I think about the universe a lot. And so those skies are not only aesthetic, they're also symbolic. 

Don: I was looking at your website this morning, and one thing that struck me, and I've seen it before when I've been on your website, is you have a painting, I think it's a print, I think it's called "The Juggler." You have a person who is juggling the planets just like a juggler would juggle balls, although instead of three balls, there's nine planets, or however many of them in the painting. That just was a remarkable piece of imagination, and also, as I said before, I think visually very stunning. Where does an idea like that come from? 

Michael: You know, that one was a little bit of a satirical self-portrait. And, you know, you asked me about how I do all these things in time. That was, it had a lot of punch in it, but if you look at it and you see that, you only see the person from the back. But if you look carefully, you'll see it's more or less me before I went gray. It's an old painting. And it was both me like being a little bit too cocky, a little too full-headed, a little too full of myself, thinking I could juggle the planets, but then all you have to do is think a little bit deeper and realize, yeah, but you can't, and you can't juggle nine things. And they're all going to come falling down any moment. Which is true. You can't. And from time to time, they have all come falling down on me and it has been hard and hurt. So there's some humor in it, some seriousness, some playfulness, a lot of color, and I just love the planets and the sky. So it's a chance to work with something that I love. 

Don: Yeah. I think your artwork is extraordinary. I can't pretend to be an expert on art, but I certainly enjoy it. In addition to satisfying your creative impulses and your own enjoyment, not only in the process, but in the final product, is there something you're trying to, what are you trying to accomplish? I could see that some artists, and perhaps you're one of them, may view their art as a way of giving to their audience, to the world, to whoever enjoys their artwork. What is it for you? What drives you to, beyond just your own need to create and your own interest and enjoyment in it, is there something else that drives you to it? 

Michael: Yeah. Thanks Don. 

It often, not always, but often is, I want to make people think of something, feel something, be moved by something, contemplate something. So, there's a painting called "Imagine," of the Wailing Wall. But if you look closely at, if you look carefully at that painting, and that was a hard one, that took a long time, that was a complex painting for me.

It's the Wailing Wall, but it's all people. It's Black and White, Arab and Jew, man and woman, gay and straight, young and old. And they're all getting along with each other. It's shocking. They're all at the Wailing Wall in the middle of Jerusalem in the old city of Jerusalem, which if you ever have a chance to go to Jerusalem, it's a fantastic and magical city. But where so much strife has happened, so many wars, so much bloodshed. But for one moment, all those people, representing all people, are talking with each other and holding hands with each other, and getting along with each other. Well, I wanted, I wanted to plant that. I just wanted people to see it. 

And maybe, you know, who knows. I’m not convinced that a work of art can change the world, but you do the best you can. You do what you can do. So you put out a painting like that, and maybe it just helps a few people think a little differently about, and that's why it's called "Imagine," it helps people think, "Wow. Could that be?" Which is way better than thinking, "Well, that could never be." So often, I do want people to think and feel, and maybe think a little bit, just a teeny bit differently. And I don't have any, I don't have any belief that it really can change things the way politics changes things, the way community activism changes things. I get that. It's only a work of art. But it is still a work of art, and art matters too. And it's what I could do. You know, we all do the best we can. This is what I can contribute. 

And you asked about the product and color and all that. And so just briefly. So my goal then is to pull you in. That's where those colors come from. That's where kind of imaginative imagery comes from. That's where trying to do something that hasn't been done, have you see something that, "Wow. I haven't really seen anything like that before." I want to pull the viewer in. It's that audience. It's figuring out how to talk to the SJC. Well, it's the same thing. It's figuring out how to talk to just human beings in a visual way and get them pulled in, have them want to stop and look, have them want to enjoy the color, and have them then therefore see the image and want to think about that for a moment. 

Don: Have you had, I think I know the answer to this, you've had exhibitions of your paintings at least. Do you have any coming up? Are there any places people could go now, any galleries where your art is being shown? 

Michael: Yeah. The pandemic has certainly taken a toll on all of that sort of thing. But for the national and international audience, the easiest way to see my art is on MichaelBogdanow.com, where I have probably 50 different images identified as prints. I don't have my sculptures on there, and I have to figure that out, cause like I said, just this year I've gone back to sculpting, and I'll have to figure out what to do about that. 

In the Boston area, you would go to a place called Kolbo, K-O-L-B-O, on Harvard Street in Brookline. They have been selling my art for, this is crazy, 40, 42 years, or 43 years actually. They started out in Harvard Square and I had a solo exhibit in what was called The Truc. No longer exists. It's kind of near the Brattle Theater, and that was around '78 I believe, '78 or '79. And, then they moved to Brookline and they've been selling my art continually ever since.

Don: Michael, this has been a delightful conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And I enjoy not only reconnecting with you, but also learning more about your background, both in law and your passion for art, which clearly, it's a passion for you. 

If any of our listeners are aspiring law students or current law students or young lawyers or even older lawyers who have a passion like yours to do something artistic or musical or something creative in addition to their law practice, what advice would you give them?

Michael: Yeah. It's tough, Don. But it can be done, but it is tough. 

I can tell you that, when I interviewed for my first law job, Parker, Coulter, Daley & White, after I met Cindy and I came before a group of probably eight interviewers, a big conference room, they interviewed me, but I went ahead and put it on the table. I said to them, "You know, I gotta be honest with you guys. I have an art career, and I have a young family at home, and those things matter to me. I'll work hard, you know, I'll put in, you know, your traditional nine to six, five days a week. And when necessary, when things get busy, I can do more than that. But I'm going to go home, and you're not going to see me here on the weekend much. And I'm going to take care of my family and I'm going to maintain my art career. And I want to put this on the table now, because, if that's not going to work, let's just agree that, you know, it was wonderful meeting all of you, and I'll do something else." It worked and they were supportive. I got the job despite such honesty, or maybe because of it, who knows. 

I had that same conversation with Jim Meehan, Leo Boyle and Cindy Cohen when they asked me to leave Parker, Coulter and come join them shortly after they formed Meehan, Boyle & Cohen. I had the exact same conversation. And they said, " Michael, we know you and we get that. And that's fine." And so, I think being honest, putting it on the table, is big. 

When I came out of law school, other people went the opposite direction. I had a very dear friend, in New York, who also had a wife and was starting a family. And his law firm told him, "You're going to California for the next year and a half on a big corporate case." And he felt he couldn't say anything. He didn't want to go. He just got married. He had a wife in grad school in New York City, but he felt, we don't question that, we just, they said it and I gotta do it. And he may be right. Maybe he couldn't have said, "No, I can't do that."

But part of it is asserting your needs and getting them. And part of it is, like I said, time management is big. But I also recognize it's not easy. And, especially in the young parenting phase or, forget, even if you're not parenting. But it's not easy when you're in your twenties and thirties and trying to get your career started. It's not easy to say to a 50-year-old managing partner, "Hey, I'm not going to work weekends." Some of them might say, "Okay, then go find a different job." 

So I get that it's not easy, I've been fortunate, but I think trying and being honest about it does help, and being a good time manager helps. 

Don: Great. Well, Michael, thank you. Again, I've really enjoyed this conversation, and I think our listeners will as well. Do you have any parting words? 

Michael: Don, I'm so honored. Well, I'm just so honored that you wanted me on. I know art is a little bit different path than some of the other interviews you've had and are having. But, yeah, I would just say, I've been really blessed to be at such a great law firm that's, you know, that's been committed to helping people, but also supportive. It’s been committed to helping the world on the on the outside, but it's also been committed internally to a healthy work environment and to being supportive of people's needs. So I've been very fortunate and I count my blessings. I get it.

And so, because of all that, I've been able to put out a lot of art, some of which I don't show you on the web because you have to have failures too. So I've been very blessed, and I've been blessed to be part of your podcast, Don. Thank you. 

Don: Thank you, Michael. Take care. 

Michael: Bye bye.