#14 | MindBites - The Effects Of Career Instability

0:00:00 - Speaker 1

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Tom, I'm Joe and this is Inside of Mind Mind Bites, season 2. Whether you're watching or listening, wherever you are in the world, we hope that this podcast can provide valuable advice on how to better deal with your men's mental health, and the topic we're going to discuss today is all about career instability and the psychological impacts that that can have on men, and men are 34% more likely to experience depression after job loss, which is a massive number one in three. So just just around that, I think, for men as a whole, like you said, that sort of like the stereotype of being the main breadwinner is very hard to fathom mentally. Personally, I have my own business at the moment and I know how hard it is for a lot of people out there, a lot of freelancers we bring on um, and for myself personally, that sort of like stability of income coming in is just incredibly stressful. It's incredibly stressful for anyone, no matter the situation, no matter their age, and I just think having a bit of stability, uh, knowing that sort of like paycheck is going to come in and sometimes you, just you can't control some things Like a company can liquidate. As we spoke out, we won't say any names A company we were dealing with the other day.

They liquidated. There's no money for anyone in the company. Everyone 17 people, whatever it was in total lost their jobs. That's frightening, but that's out of your control. So I think it's just from my point of view, is controlling the controllables much easier said than done?

Um, and then getting back, getting back on the grind, looking to find that job straight away, looking in new industries, keeping good contacts with people. I think having a really good network is so important as we're starting to find at the moment. A lot of opportunities will come, become through your network, uh, as a whole, and that would be my kind of advice on sort of like job loss. It's not something I've necessarily experienced firsthand yet, having my own business, but I got released from a lot of sports teams, uh, which was sort of my. My goal in life was to be a professional athlete, so I know that pain. I was just, I feel, very blessed that it happened at a young age and it didn't happen, because a lot of the guys that were there again would have kids. They'd have a mortgage to pay off, and I think that's a completely different situation to one like one where I was in, where I was young and I was trying to make it and I just kept getting released from places.

0:02:20 - Speaker 2

You say that, though I feel like it's a relative. I feel like, um, actually it's quite poignant with the. The sports thing and I can relate to the, the rugby thing as well is is the constant. I mean not being let go, but injuries letting you down and someone taking your place, so to speak. It's quite similar. But I feel like, with job losses and um being released from a sports team, for example, not quite making it, they are so relatable. But also you say that it's harder if you have kids. It's just relatable because you're so much older.

Well, you're more ordinarily, way older than you when you have children, when you're 16, 17, being released from a football team, rugby team, whatever it might be, is that is your life, that's your life, whereas when you're having children, you're usually in your mid to late 20s, 30s, whatever. You've got more life experience. So when you, when you experience those failures or those letdowns, you've got more life, life experience to be able to put up with that. So you've you know you're saying that it's, it's way worse. It's not. It's always all relative.

So I feel like, with men in particular, I feel like it's a sense of failure, like you failed at something and it's like how could I possibly have done that? I'm I'm not worth anything, whereas I feel like women coming back to the conversation we had earlier on about being equipped from a young age to be able to cope with these things better and have that camaraderie around the girls who might be going through a hard time, and men just have to deal with it on their own. So, um, the sense of failure, I thought, for me is the biggest thing in men when they haven't quite achieved something or been let go or um, I thought there's a certain sense of of failure, I think, in men when they when things don't quite go to plan agreed.

0:03:42 - Speaker 1

70 percent of men report that job stress negatively affects their mental health. 70 percent of men, that's a massive number and from your point of view we talked about work stress before because you were working in the city at some point what was sort of the signs that work stress is impacting, from your point, your mental health? Like, how did you know at the time and what did you do to deal with it?

0:04:03 - Speaker 2

yeah. So for those who don't know, um, listening to this is I. I worked in sports hospitality, which on the surface might sound great because obviously being involved in sport is fantastic. I was essentially cold calling, so I was actually on the phone all day, every day, and that, for me, was not for the faint-hearted. I hated every. I mean you're out there and you're in, you're involved in any form of sales, um then kudos to you. But I thought you have to be a certain type of person to be able to do that. Or if you do that and you can sit there, and Because the money was great, for me it's hard, cold calling is Unbelievable.

I was essentially tasked with cold calling heads of businesses, directors. I mean we've talked about the top 2% of companies and tried to target them. So finding, by any means necessary, trying to get the details and calling them, and you have a pitch or 15, 20 seconds long to try and sell the hospitality at Wembley, twickenham, whatever. And I hated every minute of it and the the month or two that I was there if that was probably one of the two worst months of my life, but also the period after that where how badly affected me it was the I'm not sitting here, gonna feel sorry for myself, but the ridiculously early starts at 5, 30 in the morning, not getting home until 7, 38, 8 pm. I always wasn't cut out for it.

Sitting on the train with thousands of other miserable commuters um head in their laps, just I, I couldn't. I was looking around, but this isn't me. I, I I'm not cut out for this. I'll sacrifice the money and again, fortunately I was still living at home. I had the the ability to be able to cut that and and find something else that worked best for me, which is what I'm doing now. But and not everyone has that luxury, but it was I was miserable, I was absolutely miserable. I see it all day, every day when we, when we go up to Canary Wharf and film for the podcast. I look around, I'm like people are just so miserable around me and the trains and you must see it all the time.

0:05:51 - Speaker 1

Yeah, I do see it all the time and I I always think I love my job. I think it's great, incredibly stressful, not easy running a business as they know um, but I love it and I just think it's something I'm so passionate about. Um, and I think that's the hardest thing is a lot of men and women as a whole will jump into jobs not necessarily knowing what they were, what they want to do, and they'll get super stressed out by it. I think they'll be in the in the wrong environment with the wrong managers at the wrong company for them, as, as you found out, with your stuff as well. But I just feel I feel incredibly blessed.

I accidentally started this business. It wasn't, it wasn't planned, it just came from off the back of loving doing this inside of mind podcast into an actual production side of things, and so I feel quite lucky there, although it is insanely hard, insanely hard, the stress you're put under, people who doubt you. Uh, if friends will tell you what are you doing, you're doing the wrong thing. You know, lack of funding, money coming in, people not paying, like these things are just very hard to fathom and they're not things people, people think about normally. But then I always just try and remind myself, like you know, everyone's stressed and everyone's just like, no one's focused on you solely and I think I'd always worry about what other people's opinions were, and I'm starting to just figure out, like, lock in with yourself, have your roots, which you're, you know your close friends, your close family. You listen to and you ask for guidance and help people like yourself. And then I found the stress of work go down a lot more and that could just be my personal experience.

Again sounds easier said than done. Finding something you're passionate about, like you love coaching now, um, in the gym, you love that whole lifestyle. You know this. Being self-employed, it's been great for me personally. I think it's been great for you totally, rather than being in a super high pressure environment. Uh, cold calling, doing something you're not actually passionate about and you don't even believe in. I think that's one of the the worst things, because I've done that before on on different things is like doing where you're like you know what. I don't even know why I'm doing this.

0:08:01 - Speaker 2

I don't think there's anything worse mentally when you go home than thinking that no it's scary I think you mentioned it earlier but doing something you're passionate about, and if you're solely money motivated and you can set aside selling your soul and doing the long slogs of 16 hour days, I just couldn't do that. I wasn't cut out for it and I'm happy to admit that I'm just not equipped to do the stupid long days. Sardines on the train sweat. I couldn't do it. I want to sit here and say I wouldn't be here if I carried that on. There's absolutely no way that I'd be able to continue that without sort of completely and utterly losing my way.

And I did after I'd stopped, weirdly enough, because it took so much out of me. It was more the withdrawal. So I completely withdrew from everyone and everything. I was in a relationship at the time and I'd spend any day that I could just completely curtains closed, away from everyone. And that was the wake up call for me that I really wasn't in a good space. I need to make wholesale changes and thankfully I did and I had the help around me, like you said, with the roots around you, to help build you back up again, which not everyone again has the luxury of having. But it was a wake up call for sure.

0:09:14 - Speaker 1

Do you think having an unstable career can still be successful?

0:09:20 - Speaker 2

it's a great question, unstable. In what way?

0:09:22 - Speaker 1

well, just you know you're sort of living paycheck to paycheck. You're struggling like you could be struggling. You don't know you're about to lose your job. You might not be living paycheck to paycheck, but it's just your career, is just your work. Life is a bit unstable. You don't necessarily know what you want to do or what's happening. Personally, it'll be successful.

0:09:42 - Speaker 2

For me that wouldn't be the height of successful.

The height of successful would be sort of having a purpose and it's nothing to do with the finances.

I feel like if you're living paycheck to paycheck and the anxiety that you're feeling is just trying to get to the end of the month to get paid and then the next month, the next month, and having the instability around whether you're coming or going, and and being self-employed is a little bit of that.

Because you could if we lost all our clients tomorrow, we're like we're screwed, we can't earn any money, whereas, completely agree, the jobs where you're living in the city and you're guaranteed an income regardless of the hours that you're not the hours are doing, but if you lose clients, you're still being paid because legally you're bound to be paid and you have to. So there are pros and cons, but for me it wouldn't be because the autonomy that I would lose in not doing what I'm doing now. If I was to double, triple the amount I'm earning to go and work in the city, I would say no to it because whilst I'll be earning more, I wouldn't be happy and I wouldn't be enjoying it and the anxiety I'd be feeling day to day to day to day, there are so many more things that are important to me than money, and that's just something I will never sacrifice again.

0:10:42 - Speaker 1

What does success look like to you?

0:10:46 - Speaker 2

We had this conversation off camera and it's a really, really hard word to define because I guess it's so impartial and it's down to the individual. What do you deem successful? And you might feel like if you earn a million pounds a year, irrespective of the hours you put in, that would be deemed successful to you was for me, if I earned 100 pounds in that year, but I was really happy and I developed these amazing relationships and connections with people. So I guess, um, I'm really waffling now but I feel like, no, you're not. I agree the journey that you you're on and if you feel the your autonomy is satisfied and deep within you fulfill that purpose in you, I feel like that's, um, that's successful in my opinion, because it's down to the individual. Hmm, what about you?

0:11:28 - Speaker 1

oh, you know, I we had this, as you just said before, we had this conversation off screen and I was just thinking like what actually would success look like to me? You know I'm not massively, you know, money motivated. I think what I'm motivated by what I said to joe was I'm very motivated by leaving like a legacy, a legacy one day and like building something really successful where we can help lots of people. And that's what I'm super motivated by. And I think, you know, did you say before, like the delhi llama, like I'm not, I'm not exactly sure of what the story is behind the, that's what I'm super motivated by. And I think, did you say before, like the Dalai Lama, I'm not exactly sure what the story is behind the Dalai Lama, but people are. They're people who I'm guessing this is. He's somebody who tried to do good, wasn't it not?

0:12:11 - Speaker 2

not just like some some stone cold warrior, just just to clarify yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like there's a hike of their power. He's not. He's not a warrior. Yeah, he's not. He's not like a warrior, it's more just. There. It's peace, tranquility, and it's it's about sacrificing the material good and it's about the the car you drive, the money you earn. It's about the woman on your arm. Um, it's about sacrificing the material good and it's not about the car you drive, the money you earn. It's about the woman on your arm. It's about achieving that inner peace, tranquility, and the word that I keep coming back to is purpose. Their purpose is to achieve that height of autonomy, and that's just by doing all things good, and that means just sort of sacrificing all those material goods and just being at one with yourself. I guess I think, yeah, I love that, sacrificing all those material goods and just being at one with yourself.

0:12:52 - Speaker 1

I guess I think, yeah, I, yeah, I love that. I think success, success to me would be a balance. I think what I'd want one day is eventually to have a wife and kids and like for them to just to be comfortable, you know, like if one of them was ill, if one of them, you know, say myself or the wife or whatever had cancer or someone died, like knowing I could look after family financially and also be there for them time wise, knowing I wasn't sitting 16 hours, you know, in a cubicle six, seven days a week or whatever. It is like knowing I had the freedom to, you know, be there if I need to, or drop my future kids if I'm lucky enough to have them at school. Like that stuff to me that's successful. You know that balance of helping people, looking after family and friends. You know, just being generally a good person and being comfortable enough. You know, whether that's financially or whatever it is, to look after and really care for family and friends. I think.

0:13:55 - Speaker 2

I think that would be my, my personal epitome of success and that, by the way, is far more realistic than living like the dalai lama in this day and age. We can't just go and live in the woods and say, you know what, we'll just not do and we'll just live off the land. And it just doesn't work that way. Unfortunately, as we go and live in the mountains with them, it just doesn't. Life isn't like that. So you have to. You have to strive to some sort of financial success in order to get that, unfortunately and in order to do that, sometimes the sacrifices have to be made or, like you said earlier, finding something that you're really, really passionate about, which obviously what we're doing here, what we're doing here. And if you can hit those two things, find that purpose and something you're really passionate about, then you're winning, in my opinion I think.

0:14:39 - Speaker 1

Lastly, just from joe and I, if you are struggling with your career at the moment and it is affecting your, you know, psychological state and how you're feeling mentally, just three really quick piece of advice from both of us that that I think would actually be quite similar. Yeah, and this is my. My first one is just talk to people, whether it's family, friends, you know, voice your concerns and don't just voice them and then not act on them. Voice them and make a plan around them. Make a plan on how you're going to attack, attack that problem and turn it into a solution. Secondly would just be exercising more.

I know it's so cliche for people to say just get out and exercise, but it just makes such a massive difference to everyone's lives and regular exercise reduces stress by 30 and these are all facts we talked about on the podcast before, facts we talked about with guests and that they always come up.

So, whether that's going for a walk, you know, joining a society or a club, going rowing, going running, going to the gym, whatever it is that works for you. That would be my second one. And my third one would be if you are struggling, really struggling, this would be using things such as breathwork using people like Jamie Clements if you haven't seen Jamie Clements before and there's also a girl which I really like to see on her Instagram at the moment called Maya Rachitora, and she does mental fitness for CEOs and just people in general. She does mental fitness lives where she teaches you how to be, you know, more resilient mentally to deal with things like career instability and really really stressful situations like finances, and how to sort of deal with them and make plans, plans around these things. So those would be my three things.

0:16:22 - Speaker 2

I'm sure Joe's would probably be quite similar very much so I'd just like to add on to one thing you said there and is not to settle. One thing I can definitely relate to is never settling for the bare minimum. If you have queries or questions and you're concerned and you need to go to hr in your department and you're worrying about finances not being paid the right amount, then do, because you're so easily replaced in most areas of work and never settle for something you're not happy with. And if you need to go and you can leave and don't, don't sell for the bare minimum you should.

0:16:50 - Speaker 1

Always it was striving and trying to achieve the best for yourself and uh yeah, never settle, never settle awesome brother, as you guys may know by now, on mind bites, all these questions are asked by you guys, so if you do want us to cover certain topics, what and everything we talk about is completely authentic. It's completely our point of view, uh, and doing research around it, and also stuff we've learned along the way as well. If you do want to ask questions around anything on men's mental health, drop it down below. I think there should be a little box that I put on on the podcast, on Spotify, apple podcast, wherever you're listening to this, and if you want to follow us on Instagram, tiktok, facebook or on YouTube, then please drop a comment on there as well.

0:17:31 - Speaker 2

We're also going to chuck a couple of links to the people you're mentioning, like the Jamie Clemens in below as well. So we keep reminding people to go check that stuff out as well.

0:17:37 - Speaker 1

We will. So you guys want to check out their Instagrams, please do. We have no affiliates to these people. We just generally think they're incredibly useful and their accounts they have are so useful to just learn from and take tips from, so hopefully you find some value on their stuff too, even though they won't be hearing this. And lastly, that's it from me, that's it for me as well. Cheers, guys.