Second Chance Romance: Late-Life Lesbian Love (with Aime and Lisa)

00:00 - Sarah St John (Host)

Welcome to the Lesbianist Podcast. I am your host, sarah St John, and my guest today is my first couple that I've had on the show, Aime and Lisa. They're both late-life lesbians who realized their true sexualities in their 30s while married to men. They live in St Louis, Missouri, with their four kids and their dog, luna. I found y'all through Emily Better, who has also been a guest on this show, and really enjoyed y'all's conversation and thought I should bring y'all on here. So, especially as my first couple, I'd love to hear more about y'all's story in terms of how y'all realized you're gay and coming to terms with that, what that process was like.

00:42 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

For me, I like to say it was coming to certain truth late in life. However, I would you know, once I got to where I knew and I could open my eyes and say, yeah, I think I'm gay Once I was at that point, I was 36. But at that point, looking backwards, there were a lot of little pebbles from heaven, as I like to call them, little flags, these little things that, as I put them together, at the end it's like you put one piece one. It was a pretty clear picture that I was in fact gay, and I would say that the first inklings for me probably sprouted in my late teens, probably early college, when I began to see my friends, girlfriends, and their reaction to men and just how they would interact with them and how I really kind of had somewhat of an apathy towards it. But I would reframe it as oh you know, I just I want to. I'm focused on my studies, I'm focused on just being very determined to do well in school, so I don't have time for that, right? So that's how I would reframe it, because at that time there was just no possible way that I could be gay.

02:16

I came from a very strict family, sicilian family. I knew what my path was. I was one of those kids that, okay, I'm going to get married when I'm 25. I'm going to have my first kid when I was 29. Oh, and I want to go to law school. So I got to do that before any of those other dominoes can fall.

02:37

And, believe it or not, that's exactly how it happened. I went to law school, I met the man that I ended up marrying. We were basically best friends and we became a couple. I didn't marry until law school was over. I got married at 25. I had the kid at 29. It was all according to my plan. And then, once the plan, all of my checkboxes were checked and I, you know, you kind of look up and there's always this feeling of not enoughness, there's this feeling of guilt, and all along the way there were these feelings and sensations. I would have friendships with women and I knew that when certain feelings would develop, I had to essentially move away from that friendship. It became too difficult to become friends with women and that was the biggest, one of the biggest signs for me along the way.

03:37 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

What about you, amy? I mean, my path was similar. I guess. I also didn't come out until I was. I was 33 when I came out officially. I'd been married for seven years at that point, two kids.

03:49

But prior to that, when you get to the end and you look back, you can remember things from like. I remember things from as young as like six or seven years old, like noticing women on TV or whatever and having crushes on girls at school. And the first time that I really understood that was I was probably a senior in high school, like similar to her. All of my friends were having these experiences and they were just so into it and I felt like that's what I needed to do too. So I a little different than her.

04:22

I was a bit more promiscuous, I guess, in my youth, but it was more like trying to find what everybody else was talking about With men, I will say. And so I just kept looking and looking, but nothing was ever filling that and I just kept thinking this is what all the hype is about. And so my first time that I had a crush on a woman was my senior year and it just kind of like blew my world open. From then on, I felt like I was just kind of chasing that feeling with any future partner that I had. But even then, like even though I knew all of this about myself, I still did not come to the conclusion that I was gay. It just was not even on my mind.

05:04

I was like, well, I'm probably just bi, so I just I carried that through my life until I was married and I didn't get married, thinking like, well, one day this will probably end and I'll come out. I was going to go to my deathbed carrying that with me and that was just going to have to be okay. But as I kept going, it just got more and more difficult to push down. I guess the signs just kept getting bigger and bigger. And I just like her. It's like I have everything that I'm supposed to want. I have this husband, who's so great, and I have two beautiful kids, and we, we have this lovely house and I have a great job. And why am I still not happy? It just keeps getting bigger and bigger until you just cannot keep it in anymore.

05:54 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Exactly, yeah, and just to kind of piggyback on that, when I came out I had two kids as well and a husband. We had been married for 11 years and for me it was very similar in the sense, you know, I had a checklist, a mental one, and I would go through it With every achievement, with every life challenge, over conference and getting married, getting the first job, having the first child. At every juncture there was always this feeling of, ok, if I stop too long, it's not going to be good, so just keep going, go to the next thing, go have the second kid, buy the bigger house, get the better job. At every finale, at every conclusion of that, I would just look around and again just feel this longing for something else. I would, especially in the personal life, the professional life I could control. I knew what I was good at, what I needed to improve on. But when I would come home that Monday through Friday, I was fine. But then all of a sudden Saturday and Sunday happened and like, oh, I have to do this other thing that I'm not sure about. And there was this uncertainty that I wasn't good at it the being a wife thing. I still am not sure whether I love it. I got teenagers that remind me that I'm not sure about this.

07:25

But the wife thing growing up with in a patriarchal family, seeing my mom and dad and my brothers with their spouses and my friends and their spouses it just there was a friendship, fierce and loyal friendship, friendship, but there was just that extra part that was difficult for me to wrap my whole heart and my whole mind around. There was just this part of me that was not fully in and that created issues, obviously organically you can imagine issues within the relationship. As those years went on and that longing continued, there was a resentment that began to a seed of resentment inside of me that I would project out, and it created issues with my husband at the time and also with family, with other family members. I just remember feeling this aggression towards all the people in my family that I was doing this for I was living a life. I began to realize that I was stuck in and I was doing it because I was afraid to let other people down. I was afraid to let my parents down, my father especially. And so here I am, just going along this treadmill of life and doing it for someone other than myself, and there was just. It was just a constant pull and giving and pulling and it was.

08:57

It was an internal torment and there was a point where, after I had my second child, I had no more boxes. It was essentially almost a feeling of I got to do this now forever. There's no way I can be who I want to be. I have to do this forever. And it was just this feeling of hopelessness and despair and just suffocation. It was too difficult not to breathe. That's when I started to look outward and started to really find answers Look outward and inward, putting that mosaic together. Like I said before, once I realized that I was not bi because I thought too. I thought well, I'm bi and this is what I've chosen, here's what I'm going to do. Once I realized I wasn't that part of the bi, I was just gay, I had to take steps. It was some of the most difficult steps of my life, for sure.

09:57 - Sarah St John (Host)

Yeah, I think a lot of and not to undermine and act like bisexuality doesn't exist. It does. But I think a lot of late life lesbians did have a long period where they just assumed that they were bi. I mean, I had like two decades of that. But something you said really resonated about like living your life for other people, and I think a lot of late lifers are also people pleasers and we're more concerned about other people and not letting them down and living our life according to what they expect. So what was when you did come out, both of y'all? What was that experience like?

10:41 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

Well, the actual coming out part was, I mean, it was terrifying and excruciating at times. I never really had to like come out to my husband. I felt. I feel like it was sort of a gradual thing. He always knew that I was interested in women. Our relationship was struggling, so we did the whole thing where it was like, ok, well, I'm going to try to find a woman. You know, maybe that will help our relationship.

11:08

And that lasted approximately like two days because I was like there's no way and I knew that it wasn't going to work. But I was just trying to do everything I could to make it work. But eventually it was like this we just can't do this. So once we came to that realization telling everybody else I was petrified to tell my family, my parents, but I don't know why, because I had a feeling they would be fine with it. I think it's just the undoing of all the things that people think you are. You're telling somebody that you aren't who they think that you've been your whole life. So that was really scary. But my parents, my family, have been really, really great. They were really great from the beginning. So I am very, very lucky in that.

11:49 - Sarah St John (Host)

Oh, that's good. So I guess they you weren't coming from like a religious background really, or no. I wasn't Okay. That probably helped. I bet you have a different story.

12:00 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Well, I went first. Coming out was very difficult. One of the hardest parts coming out was coming out to myself. I'm a big Whitney Houston fan and one of her famous songs is Greatest Love of All. Right, what is the greatest love of all? It's to love yourself, and I had a hard time doing that and, especially when I was going through this, to really come to terms with it internally. Only when I did that was I able to verbalize things and get it out into the world, and for me it all kind of came to a head. Like many folks, you know, you have a routine in your life and the routine is so comfortable and you just get into these habits and sometimes when you disrupt your routine, it's amazing what happens, what you can unearth.

12:47

I was in a position that I enjoyed. I'd been there with a company for seven years and I decided to pursue a more senior level position at a different company and you go through the hiring process. I got the job and just one thing was different my commute. So instead of having 15 to 20 minutes to myself in the car with very little traffic, I went from that to about 30 to 45 minutes in the car with a lot of traffic. I went from that to about 30 to 45 minutes in the car with a lot of traffic, and that extra time to myself to be in my own head was really when it all began, because I could not escape my thoughts as easily. Everything was new. So, you know, when you start a new job, sometimes it starts off a little slow. I wasn't as busy. I'd go from 60 hours a week to just, you know, still introducing myself and ingratiating myself with everyone. So there was a lot of downtime and in that downtime that's when I could no longer run from myself because all I had was myself In my head in my car, at work. I was constantly thinking about how different I felt, how I constantly started to see the signs more and more of how I saw certain women and how I really didn't react to men, and all that and it was within the first month of a new job.

14:15

I had a road trip. I had to go to the headquarters and it was in Omaha, when I would have these feelings of wanting to explore. For me it was almost like going to a candy store and putting my nose up against the glass, not going in, just looking right, and the one way I would do that is I don't know if you remember Craigslist used to have a women seeking women and I would go onto that and just look at all of the other women finding each other and other women looking for other women, almost just to be near it but not to be fully into it. Except this one time when I was on the road I read the post of a woman who was just like me. She was married, she had two kids about the same age as my kids, and she had all the feelings that I had. She felt guilty, she felt resentment, she felt stuck, and so her post. Just it was almost as if I had written it and I opened my computer and I just started typing a response back and that was the first time I had ever put anything out into the ether and I didn't think anything of it. I closed my computer, woke up the next morning and she responded. That was the first time in my life where I had put something out there and someone had reciprocated.

15:42

I never really wanted. I was all attracted to women, but when I would see someone or engage with someone I almost had my eyes looking at the floor all the time because I couldn't look at it in the eye. This was the first time someone had looked back at me and I saw them and it scared me to death. It scared me to death because I had used my email, I had used my first and last name, I was a chat room newbie, I had every, and I'm like, oh my God, this woman probably going to punt me down, she's going to, she's going to out me, my family's going to find out Just from that one post. And so I responded back to her and said I'm sorry, I've been hacked. I don't know who sent that to you. And she was incredibly gracious. She said okay, I think I know what happened. It's okay If you change your mind. Here's my contact information and basically, for the next 24 to 48 hours, I just went back and forth on whether I should reach back out and I did, and we became pen pals and for a brief period of time the thing about that exchange of information I never spoke to her over the phone, I never saw her in person, it was just entirely online and she was going through the same thing at the same time, and so when she came out to her husband, she's like I'm going to do it tonight. I felt this enormous I don't know what the word would be except I was jealous. I was like, wow, I want to be that person, I want to be her. I wish I could put myself in her shoes and have the bravery to come out to her husband. As hard as it's going to be, it's going to be the truthful setter for it. And that night she was going to do it.

17:26

And that night after I was having dinner with my husband at the time, and one subject led into another subject and we were talking politics as usual, and I just it came out. I mean, it was very organic. I just told him how I felt and I never uttered the words outside of my brain. And he asked me so what are you saying? And I said, yeah, I mean, it was a question in relation to Angelina Jolie, and if Angelina Jolie walked in the room I finished his sentence I said I would not know that you were here. That was the first domino to fall.

18:05

We had had many issues in our marriage, as you can imagine, and that was the first one. And at that point he was the first person I came out to. He could have really steered my life for the next decade with his reaction. It could have been very negative. He was, for the most part, incredibly positive and supportive and he knew that we both needed to know and I needed to know whether I wanted to be with women. And so from there, I continued to talk to this woman in Omaha and in a way, she was on the same level in terms of reaching out and trying to find her person and with her encouragement, I was able to essentially find Amy. And once I found Amy, we found each other on a dating website. And once I found her and again had that reciprocal feeling of of Not only attraction but also similar story, similar background, it was hard to say to myself this isn't where I'm supposed to be.

19:15 - Sarah St John (Host)

So do you mind if I ask which site it was? It was OkCupid. Oh okay, how long ago was that?

19:23 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

10 years. Oh wow 11 years, January 20th back.

19:29 - Sarah St John (Host)

Oh wow, you have the exact date down 238. You're gonna have to show receipts of that, you will. So then I guess y'all started talking, the two y'all before you were divorced. I guess, yes, yeah, okay. And then y'all's relationship evolved to the point where it was clear and y'all then both came out to your well, y'all were already out, but I mean, that's when y'all decided to get divorced from your husbands and yeah, okay.

19:56 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

I think for both of us it was like we reached a point in our marriages where we had these feelings inside and it was like we were just looking for a somebody who was going through something similar, somebody that we talked to about these feelings that we had. So that was, I think, the initial reason behind me putting those posts on OkCupid or opening profiles or whatever it was called back then.

20:21

So, yeah, I was like I don't think either one of us went into it thinking, oh, we're going to end up meeting this person who's going to just change the course of our lives. We're really just looking for somebody to talk to. It was so lonely living this existence where it's like everybody sees what they want to see, but inside I'm just like burning alive, basically. So, yeah, we were just looking for somebody to talk to, and then it just very quickly evolved into much more than that and it became apparent pretty quickly that things were never going to be the same. And we had a lot of conversations like, oh, we both had little kids at the time. Like, well, maybe we should wait until the kids are out of college or out of high school, oh my gosh, it's been forever.

21:04

Yeah, it just would not have been realistic, but it became too hard to just live the way that we were living. It was excruciating on so many levels. So I think it was just the natural next step. We had to come out, we had to take steps to move forward.

21:21 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Yeah, what we met and we saw each other, and I'm not saying just physically. There was someone else going through the same thing, literally living 10 minutes from me her whole life, and then meeting Mimi, and then it was like taking a genie out of the box. It was really hard, but in a good way it was hard to put that back in. And once those feelings emerged, it became very clear that the hard work was about to begin. Meeting was easy, even though it felt like it took forever. It took me 36 years to find her. I like to say it took me 36 years to find you. But that was the easy part. The hard part was about to happen and that was I had come to terms with it on my own. And then I met Amy and I felt the most comfortable I had ever felt in my own skin when I was with her, and the happiest I'd ever been. And then we found other friends and we started to become part of a community, slowly and slowly but surely, and then it was coming out to my family.

22:20

I think about it now. I still get that same pain in my stomach because, being raised in a Sicilian family, a Catholic, there was only one way to go. There was only one path, and the idea that I, the golden child, as my brothers liked to call me, was about to just veer off this path. And not only veer off, but blow it up completely and say I'm gay, Not, hey, I'm getting a divorce which would have been bad enough for Catholic family, right. But not only that, it's I'm gay, Not. Hey, I'm getting a divorce which would have been bad enough for Catholic family, right. But not only that, it's I'm gay. I am everything that you've read about in that book. I'm that the Bible. And it's ridiculous. Now I say it, I think about it and it's silly because I am a firm believer and I was then too that everything happens for a reason and God does have a plan for all of us. And God had a plan for me.

23:13

And, in fact, a month before I met Amy, I was in the lowest place in my life and I went to church and it was empty. I was just praying and I prayed to God that he help me figure this out, Because I was breaking my heart in shambles every day and tormenting myself, and I know that I was no good to anyone like that. I wasn't good to my kids. I wasn't good to my partner, who deserved better. I wasn't good to my family. I was just a shadow of myself. And I told God I need to know, you need to help me. If this is going to happen, you need to show me a sign. I mean, I went right there, I need to see something. And a month later I met Amy.

23:57

So from my perspective, I know there's a lot of people out there that believe that if you're gay, you're not welcome in the church or God hates you. That's not my God. My God showed me the path. He wanted me to love authentically and for me to be whole. And I wasn't whole. I wasn't complete, and until I met Amy, I was not. And then, when I met her, fell in love with her and accepted myself. That's when I became whole, and I think that's what, at the end of the day, God wants for all of us.

24:27 - Sarah St John (Host)

I love that. So how long were y'all talking before you actually met in person?

24:32 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

Two days, oh wow OK, it was like two day nonstop the initial text. It was just like nonstop, and we just sat for lunch on Friday at work, and so it was what like 45 minutes, 59 minutes, 59 minutes oh wow, quick.

24:52 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

It was what? The 45 minutes, 59 minutes oh wow quick. It was quick, quick, awkward meeting but I had never been more scared in my life and I'm pretty outgoing, I can pull people into conversation. I was surprised at how the cat had my tongue, but it was a stress-filled lunch. But it was pretty clear that there was something there for sure. Just knowing that there was someone out there like me who had similar background story to kids, and we're both coming at this from the same perspective, it was very therapeutic to meet Amy and talk to her for two days and we covered everything. And we, you know two days and we covered everything. I mean everything. That's how our friendship evolved.

25:34 - Sarah St John (Host)

That's so cute. Oh, because I was going to say, well, was it like a four-hour lunch or like a two-hour arcade. Those have been my experiences. But if you had to meet, during a lunch break.

25:43 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

If you were a lesbian, yeah, we had not had to go back to work.

25:47 - Sarah St John (Host)

We all could have just like called in sick and been like I went to lunch and I ate something bad and now I'm not going to make it in the rest of the week.

25:56 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Yeah no, in the early days it was tough. We were still. Obviously we had one foot in and one foot out of two lives.

26:03 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

We only could meet once a week, once a week we had like Thursdays a week we had Thursdays or something. We went out on Thursday night dinner.

26:11 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Yeah, and in between Thursday and Thursday to Thursday it was just a lot of communication via text.

26:20 - Sarah St John (Host)

So how long did y'all do that? Just the once a week thing until I feel like forever.

26:26 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

For a long time.

26:28 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Yeah, I think once a week then became every every once in a while would be like a saturday night. We did that. I want to say when did you do that? June, july, so about six months of that, yeah.

26:44 - Sarah St John (Host)

So while this was going on, y'all I guess, while y'all were getting to know each other, you y'all were still married to y'all's husbands.

26:51 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

And yeah, though now we would have to go back home and like but our, our husband knew like, okay, that's why we were aware, and I think it was just like we were separated in the process of figuring it all out, trying trying to figure out what the next. We all kind of knew where we were headed, we were, just didn't really know how to get there. There was a lot I mean, we had kids, and it's a lot to undo your whole life like that, so it just took some time. So that's a period of time where, when I think of it, I still get that feeling in the pit of my stomach because it was like so great to have one day with her, but then leaving was excruciating, and then everything going on at home was excruciating. A really, really difficult time.

27:38 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

It was really hard, yeah, and I think one of the things that made it harder is the more we met, the more we got to know each other. Obviously, we fell in love over them and we knew that we were beginning something. But we had to end this chapter, this whole decade or more of our lives. Not end it, but we had to resolve it, and that was going to be the very difficult part. So I think for both of us it was hard conversations with our spouses at the time but looking back on it, I think some things we probably could have handled a little bit better.

28:13

On both sides I think we came out pretty clean. The one thing that I think drove us and guided us was we wanted to make sure the kids were okay, and so we did it very slowly. The word that we use all the time was little by little, we transitioned as much in a very short period of time so that the kids would not feel like there was anything jarring happening. So that was the goal for all four of us, and so my ex-husband and I we lived in a house and we took steps to sell that house and then split the proceeds and he bought a house, all those sorts of housekeeping things that you needed to do in advance of quote unquote divorcing. We did them while separated but still together.

29:06

Then we brought, we introduced each other to one another and the children, so it felt as organic as possible and it took a while. It seemed like it was taking forever. It seemed like it would never end, but that part took a couple of years. A couple of years, yeah, and during that time I came out to my parents too. So first my ex and then my siblings which were easy I have two older brothers and it was had those conversations and then I came out to my parents and that was. That was the longest part of it, because I had to do it multiple times.

29:47 - Sarah St John (Host)

You had to come out to your parents multiple times. Yes, yes. Oh, can you explain what you mean by that?

29:53 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Well, the guy. Okay, imagine, have you ever seen the Golden Girls, mm-hmm? Okay, Sophia, picture it 1920, sicily, that's where. Okay, so my parents are from Sicily. They came to America in the 60s. They had a certain idea of what marriage is and what life is and all that, and I just essentially put a grenade to it. And so when I came out to my mom, for instance, I sat her down on the couch and I'll never forget. It's almost as if someone had shot her with a gun, because that was her physical reaction. She jolted back. It was that jarring for her.

30:33

And then the next day I came out to my father and he just didn't want to believe it. I went early in the morning on a Saturday and had a conversation with my father, because he knew that I had come out to my mom and he didn't want to believe it. So I went there and I told Amy I'm going to my parents' house and she said good luck, you got this. I got there in the morning and she called me like two, three hours later. She said how did it go? I'm like well, I'm straight again. That was the first introduction to it where my father convinced me that no, there's no way that you're getting that. He didn't convince me. I was obviously saying that in jest, but he convinced himself that you're not having this conversation. He was huge in that.

31:18

So there was multiple parts to this. It was six or seven conversations over the period of two or three, four months, and it took a while for him to understand that I can't change this, that this it wasn't his fault, it wasn't my fault. This is just how I was. And he offered he wanted to send me the doctor. He wanted to take some vitamins. They have Viagra for women. It's like, dad, that's not what I need.

31:48

And it was just like you know, you're a beautiful woman, you travel on your own. You've never wanted to have an affair with a man. Maybe it's just your marriage. Maybe your marriage is unhealthy, maybe you need another mate. I'm like I don't need another man. Last thing I need I've traveled on my own. I've been in corporate hotels where I've gotten a drink at the bar. Never have I ever wanted to have an affair and do all that. Never, it's just never. You can trust me, I was always the good girl. So, yeah, it took a long time, but at the end I know that it was difficult for my father and the place before he passed was able to accept me and accept my truth, and I know that he loves me and he loved me. It took a while and it was difficult, but at the end I think we got where we needed to go.

32:44 - Sarah St John (Host)

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that you reached that point. What about with your mother?

32:49 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

My mom was initially, but she's come a long way. She loves Amy. She loves Amy's kids. It's one of those things where I know she has difficulty with certain terminology. Like I think it's hard for her to hear me call Amy my wife. Why'd you say that? Why'd you call her that? But for me, you know my mom's 80. So I'm not going to be able to change 80 years of life. I know that she loves me. I know she loves Amy. I know she loves her kids. Yeah, and I'm not going to climb Mount Everest of life and try to change us. As the only woman in her 80s in what she thinks of gay marriage, she knows that I've never been happier. She accepts that, she understands that, she acknowledges that. And I think for her the biggest challenge is what other people think. And no matter how many times I tell her Mom, I don't give two Fs what people think. No, you shouldn't either, because it doesn't hurt.

33:53 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

She's gone a long way. I mean, my kids call her Nona Nopompa. Gone a long way.

33:59 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

And Amy's parents have been there from the very beginning and that always was a nice home base, you know. At least we had Tim and Judy and they accepted my kids with all open hearts and that touched me so incredibly when we were at the beginning. And it's still to this day. We're actually about to go on vacation together oh, that'll be fun where y'all going sarah, we're going to europe.

34:25 - Sarah St John (Host)

Multi generational trip europe oh wow, that'll be fun hopefully, and my parents yes, yeah, they pray for us, but it's gonna be a while.

34:35 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Say more than one light.

34:37 - Sarah St John (Host)

How did y'all's kids react when y'all came out?

34:40 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

They were little Like my kids when I came out were what One and four, so they didn't. I mean there was a lot that was confusing for them. It's like why are we all of a sudden living with mama and papa and why are we going back so we hadn't I, and why are we going back so we had? I had to explain it to them in very simple terms that my four year old can understand. You know what I mean. Hers were older.

35:04 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Seven and five. Mine were seven and five and I think you know it was about a year after we started where, when we met that we kind of started to use ageate language to describe what was going on. And I think, because they were so young, my daughter's about to graduate high school this week, my son's 15. My Jack is 14, going to be 15 in September and Liv is 11. And it's second nature to them. I mean, it's to see two moms working their butts off raising four kids. Seeing that dynamic for them is normal, natural and that's good. I think that's good for us and I think that's good for the world To have four allies out there just understanding that love is love. It doesn't matter if a woman and a woman are together, a man and a man are together or a man and a woman, it doesn't matter as long as you, love, are together. A man and a man are together or a man and a woman, it doesn't matter, as long as you love completely and authentically. That's the most important thing.

36:02 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

Yeah, introduce the kids to each other so slowly, like we just met one day at the pool and we're like, oh, we're just going to meet some friends at the pool. And they like swam together.

36:15 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

They hit it off really quick, yeah, and they like swam together and then we hit it off really quick.

36:17 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

Yeah, boys are just like one year apart, so they yeah. And then we would have I had a little apartment at this time, which was what? Two years with our relationship and every now and then we would have sleepovers. So everybody would come sleepover. We would have four kids piled in one bedroom. It was a lot, but it was a great way to get them excited, get them to know each other, and we just did that really, really slowly for a really long time. It kind of just became well, these people are in our lives, and when are we going to see luca and molly again?

36:47 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

right. Oh yeah, they're sitting more. I'd say when are we going to see jack and lit?

36:52 - Sarah St John (Host)

we will see them I really appreciate y'all coming on and sharing your story and the process that y'all went through, and do y'all have any kind of last tips, words of wisdom for anyone who is maybe in the middle of this process of coming out to whether it's their husband, their parents, kids?

37:11 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

I would just say everybody's journey is different. It's important to do things when you're ready. Just don't rush it just because you feel like you have to do it. Take your time and just be kind to yourself, because it's really really hard and there's so much guilt involved and you just really have to be gentle with yourself as you're going through it. I know it's really hard sometimes, but it's really really, really important.

37:37 - Lisa Nicastri (Guest)

Yeah, I would echo that. I think giving yourself grace is going to be the number one thing to get through. I think the other thing I would say is you're going to find that there are certain people that want to make this about them, and you have to remember that for once in your life you have to do something for yourself because you only live once and take note of those people, but don't feel like you have to live for them or make time in your headspace for them. Maybe put them to the side and deal with those folks later, stay on track, but be incredibly gracious to yourself and it will work out and the way that people react to you is not your responsibility.

38:23 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

People have a lot of opinions and they're going to project that onto you, but that it isn't your burden to bear how they feel about you. So you're going to have a lot, a lot of things to go through and a lot of people to deal with. So just don't feel like you have to own every single person's opinion of your life, what you're doing. So that's their stuff to figure out.

38:46 - Sarah St John (Host)

Yeah, that's a good point, awesome. Well, I really appreciate it. If people want to connect with y'all, y'all are on. Well, I know Amy, at least, is on Instagram Is that like the best way for people to connect? Yeah, that works, I'm on Instagram too. And then, what do y'all's handles?

39:03 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

I'm at Amy Lee A-I-M-E-L-E-E.

39:07 - Sarah St John (Host)

Amy Lee. Isn't that the lead singer of Evanescence?

39:10 - Aime Lee Oberheim (Guest)

Yes, she has an extra D. She has one more E than I do, but, yeah, same name.

39:15 - Sarah St John (Host)

She has a bigger bank account too.