The Allure of Other People
Ahhhh...the gentle (or powerful) allure of Other People. They're just....perfect. Aren't they? Wouldn't life be perfect with them? Jerry and Kristy consider the challenges, and illusions, the flashing attraction to others might bring.
Okay. Hi. You're listening
to LoveWork:Skills for A Relational Life. I'm your host, Jerry Sander and my co-host, out in Utah, is Kristy Gaisford.
Kristy Gaisford:Hi, Jerry.
Jerry Sander:Hi, Kristy. How you doing? Good.
Kristy Gaisford:How are you? All right.
Jerry Sander:We have like a good topic for today; this topic seems to get more interest than five or six or seven of our other topics added together, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Yes, the topic is the allure of other people.
Jerry Sander:Ah, alluring other people, like...not the one you live with every day?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Why are other people so alluring? I was thinking about this, because I just went on vacation. And everyone told us before we left how amazing this place was. And it was just so beautiful and raved about it. And my friend, and I got there, and it was beautiful. But our very first night there, someone grabbed her butt, as we walked by, just like groped her, and someone tried to steal our stuff, and we we got down by the beach, and there were all these bugs and all these people trying to sell us stuff you couldn't just sit in peace for for very long. And it was great. I'm not trying to complain. But we kind of looked at each other and said, Hmm, we didn't hear any of this stuff. Before we came, and, and I and then we were laughing because, you know, she posted on Instagram, and it looked like everybody else like the Instagram version. And, and I said, Well, maybe this is just what everyone does. They all say the good. And nobody, nobody likes shows the real stuff, you know. And then I got home. And I went running with my other friend and I and I said it was great. You know? I mean, there were some issues. And she said, Yeah, I didn't want to tell you before you went by had the same issue. Like so nobody shares. Nobody says the reality everybody is sharing this Instagram version.
Jerry Sander:And I think that's fascinating. That's almost like this would go with a podcast about the topic of why other people are awful, by the way. Not even the allure of other people. It's like, yeah, I don't even like other people. Because they're grabbing you and trying to rip you off and stuff like that. Yeah, so but I do understand your point that we put the nicest possible picture on things and present an image. And people have gotten really good at presenting an image, like way better than they used to be in previous decades. You get like, Photoshop-y things.
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, that's the other thing. Even the images are filtered. Yeah, even the picture doesn't even look like reality because it has a filter.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, it makes a sunrise didn't even look quite like this. We can pop it up a little bit. Yeah. And that's what they're Yeah, go ahead. Well,
Kristy Gaisford:That's what I think the allure of other people is that we see other people at a slight distance. And we see the image and the version that they put out to the world. And unless we're living in their home with them, which we're not, we don't know, all these other areas, the bugs and the mosquitoes and the theft.
Jerry Sander:I didn't know how impossible they are. And we don't know what their family of origin is like and what they're like at Thanksgiving and stuff. Yeah, I was thinking about this, like seeing influencers. Like if you go on Facebook, and there's someone -- and I think I've fallen fallen for this once or twice -- where there'll be some protein powder that I might be interested in, you know, it might be because I'm vegetarian and I I'm interested in kind of vegan protein powders, but it's being introduced by this very excited good looking young woman who's just like it's the best part of her day to have this protein powder you know, yeah, and her hair looks fantastic and like wow, obviously this stuff makes you young you know and happy and I'm paying more attention to the image of being the kind of person who does this then the reality the protein, but I'm not even sure I got to read the ingredients and I ordered...
Kristy Gaisford:Yes...you just know, that I this is like so embarrassing to admit. But one time I saw, I saw an ad for a swimsuit. And it was, so it was so cute. And I ordered it. And I tried it on. And I was like, oh shoot, it comes with my body.
Jerry Sander:That's really funny.
Kristy Gaisford:It doesn't look the same at all!
Jerry Sander:When I had the protein powder, I was still in my late 60s, you know? It was good. So we do fall for this, that things look so good. And it's like how it looks and how it makes you feel. And then you start projecting yourself into that equation, right? If I were with that person, oh my God, all the aggravating things that really annoy me at home, the circular arguments with the person I live with just the ones that just don't go away, they wouldn't be here.
Kristy Gaisford:And also, like, we tend to see the things we struggle with. We see the parts of others that they don't struggle with. So we compare our weakness with their strength.
Jerry Sander:Oh, say more about that.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, so say I'm struggling financially. And then I see, I'm going to look at people that have a lot of money and think, oh, they haven't made, they're traveling all over the world all the time. They have no, no worries financially at all. They get to go to all these fancy trips and these big basketball games and these, you know, they're just at every event, they look beautiful. But I don't know that deep down, they don't get along at all. And maybe they're not even happy with each other. Maybe they have a huge house, but they sleep in separate rooms. I mean, there's so many things that they might struggle with that I don't but I don't look at that, because all I'm looking at is the financial thing. Or, you know, you could do with weight. Maybe if you struggle with your weight, all you see is these perfect bodies, and you think that everything must come easily to them. Because they don't have a care in the world. But then you don't you find out that actually a million other things, you know, they're they their struggle with their family relationships, maybe they have physical problems, you know, I mean, I just think everything looks different from far away.
Jerry Sander:It does. And it's really the I think Esther Perel talks about this, that the, the, the purpose of the affair, or the interest in the allure of the others, is really about you. And feeling alive again, is really about remembering a version of you. That was very lively.
Kristy Gaisford:You know, I think it's about fantasy. I think it's, we all have this fantasy of the perfect soulmate. You know, and I think somebody from far away that the allure of someone else, is they can still be the fantasy. And anyone that you get to know close up, that fantasies gonna burst, because any human is a human.
Jerry Sander:I mean, how often in couples
Kristy Gaisford:Almost all the time. Because is the very thing that charms someone at first, come to really annoy them after a few years, you know? our biggest strength is our also our weakness at the extreme. And so that almost always happens.
Jerry Sander:So it's almost like it's like something you notice. And you thought, Oh, that's so sort of cute, right? And then like three years later, it's like enough already with it. Please, stop. Just be more normal, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Like the person who loves is drawn to someone who's such a hard worker. And they're so ambitious. And they they're really drawn to that success. And then a few years later, they can't stand the fact that they're married to a workaholic who's never around.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, yeah. Or maybe someone helps organize the table while they're talking to you or something. And you think, Oh, that's so nice. And then like, years later, it's like, will you stop moving my things around? I need I had them there for a reason. And I can find them when they're that way.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Or, or maybe someone more high stress really is drawn to someone who's laid back because they know on some level, they need that. But then years later, they want to die because the person like is so laid back. They're not doing anything. So I mean...
Jerry Sander:Alright, let's go to an obvious one, like a guy and is over age 55, who's on dating sites and wants to doesn't want to date a woman over 32. Right? You know...And if you ask
Kristy Gaisford:Yup. him, he'll say, oh, women are very alluring between ages 25 and 32. You know, that's the allure of others. What about the inside? What about the conversation? Yeah. What do you have in common?
Jerry Sander:There aren't too many 26 year olds who want to be with a 59 year old guy, you know, for their liveliness and stuff, but...
Kristy Gaisford:Just a big bank account? Probably.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. My, my point is this Yeah, I think so too. Like when I bought kind of like the allure of The Other. If, if I had that I would be young again. I would really, it's sort of delusional, if I had that quality. Like, if in the influencer, that I bought the protein powder, oh my gosh, I'm not sure I ever felt that lively and perky and optimistic in my life. But if I bought it, I might, you know, so if I, if I associated myself with this alluring person, I might have all these qualities that I don't think I that swimsuit, somehow I thought my body have anymore. So people are doing trying to almost appropriate those qualities, you know? would change with it. And I would feel as happy as that sunset model running down the beach. Sorry for the interruption. But I've been waiting to use that surf music but for a while. Kristy and I are going to be doing the essential relational skills bootcamp in person in the same room at the same time, on the same coast, not in little zoom box anymore, but actually live in person in the Hudson Valley of New York, the last weekend in June, June 25, and 26th you can find out more about it on our website, Loveworkrelationships.com Click on "How we help" and "Relationship Boot Camp" and they'll be more details for it there in person means and this has been scientifically proven 53% more personal warmth. 64% more soul 13%, more poignancy and 89% better company, so come join us in person while you can. Now back to the podcast.
Kristy Gaisford:But I do think that we I think the the real blessing of being a couples therapist or a therapist at all, is that we get to see behind the myths of these things. I mean, I feel like I've had people from every socio economic class dealing with every sort of different problem and you realize that there, nobody has a market on happiness, just because of how they look. And sometimes you'd be surprised who the happiest people really are.
Jerry Sander:It's interesting, isn't it? Sometimes people put so much time and effort into looking the way they do. I mean, it requires time and effort. And it requires more time and effort as they grow older. And their anxiety grows more. Because they know they're not 19 years old anymore. You know, this is huge with people in their 30s they just feel themselves starting to turn into something else. And it's an adult piece of acceptance, to see yourself aging, and not just constantly be reaching for to be young again. I was just reading this fantastic book called "Fantasyland" by Kurt Anderson, and he had this great chapter about he called it "Kids Are Us" where everyone in America is just at a certain point decided they're 21 years old, like 13 year olds or 21, 17 year olds or 21, 35 year olds are 21 and 70 year olds are 21 It's like everyone wants to be kind of young, full of energy. Just just to kind of carefree thing. That previous ideas about aging and becoming mature are sort of out the window right now. So there's a frenzy and this is what this is why influencers are so successful. It's almost like they're holding a box or something saying, hey, remember being young like me? Remember being happy like me, too. Don't you want to be with me? I might be available. But buy this bathing suit. You know?
Kristy Gaisford:See, I think that's so sad because I've also been reading this book by, it's called "From Strength to Strength". And he talks about that the strengths that you use in the second half of life are different than in the first half. And if you can really embrace those, you'll be so much happier. And it it's more things like wisdom, and experience and connections and relationships, like all the things that take a long time to build. And when we put so much into being young, I actually heard Justine Bateman call putting so much into your face to stay young, she calls it a Ponzi scheme, which is so true. I mean, nobody, you can't, you can't fight it, you're gonna be old, you might look different, you might have look a little bit. Not normally. Oh, you still look older, you know, and, and I do think like, this has to do with the allure of others. If we can't accept where we are, then we weren't going to we're not going to enjoy it. It's going to pass us by.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. And and it won't be part of us. It'll just be something we're standing next to. I'm thinking of this old Rodney Dangerfield joke, where he used to say you want to know how to look like a young, slim and sexy stand next to really fat old people.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, well, I, is there a certain part where...have you, did you go through a stage where you kind of accepted getting older?
Jerry Sander:Yeah. And a lot of it had to do with parenting, like suddenly the transition to being called a father. You go through Wait, what is the father again? What does the father do? How am I now that as opposed to what I was yesterday? I remember that was big. And it was the type of relief because there's this club of fathers, you know, where no one's really at least back then. Like, no one's really trying too hard to look 21 anymore. And we're looking a little beleaguered, and it's not so much about us anymore. It's about are the kids going to be in soccer league? And are you going to go to all the games? Are you going to be an assistant coach?
Kristy Gaisford:So when was that like in your 40s?
Jerry Sander:Well, because I had kids late. So my first child was born in '91. So I was six months before 37. So I was an older father already. But I think, for me becoming older in a way that I was looked at as older. What came from losing my hair early. And actually, like, as I was starting to go bald felt like a Yeah, I want to, I want it to finish falling out. Because I hate having thinning hair and looking like I'm getting old. Once I got older looking people were like respecting me like, 'Oh, you must be very learned and wise' when I wasn't and so even when my first internships that places in social work school, people were interacting with me like I was an older person. And I thought, I'll take it. That's fine. They don't know how much I don't know. Yeah, right. How about for you? What about for you?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, I feel like I'm in it. It'll be there and it will be wonderful. And That's why I was asking because my friend and I and our vacation, were kind of like in that mid 40s stage where you're not young anymore, but you're you haven't accepted that you're older. But you can tell that you're getting there. And we felt like the older people were so happy I do think the studies have shown that people because they just embraced it. They didn't have their kids anymore. They didn't start getting happier in their 50s that the they weren't didn't have the burdens of life that you have when you have younger kids. And they just some of them were retired. We just met these people at the pool. But they just seemed like, Yeah, our kids are in their 30s We're, we're free. We have some financial freedom. We're just living life. And both she and I felt like we still have all these teenagers. We're we work a lot. We have kids stuff constantly. And we're in this middle age like kind of mourning youth, not totally embracing the next stage but wanting to, I don't know.. hardest part is between 20 and when your last kid goes off to college, but I'm I'm at the phase now where everyone's out of my home and the possibility of it being just about you and your spouse again for a while with your money and time. And no more soccer games, no more soccer games! I coached for four years, two seasons a year. So I coached eight seasons of soccer, and I didn't even like soccer. I just loved my kids. And I don't have to see a soccer game again. So... Yeah, I was at six sports games last week. So...I hear you.
Jerry Sander:So someday Kristy, you're going to see one of those people who you always connect with, after there's no kids around anymore. And you're just kind of like, ah, 'Remember them? That's from a previous life." And so happiness can definitely come roaring back. And, again, it's going to be internal. If you own the aging, as this is pretty cool. And yeah, I don't look like I did when I was 19. And fortunately, I'm with someone who loves how I am. Loves who I look like, you know, and just loves me, then you don't have to worry. You don't have to worry about looking 21 anymore, because it's gone.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, and I think we can tie that back to the allure of other people, if you realize it's just a facade, it's so important to turn your attention and energy to your partner. I mean, this is the other thing I thought when I was traveling, I really liked to travel, it's fun, but it's also exhausting. You know, like I had, I had a red eye. I hadn't slept forever. I had a layover, you're like sitting there, you haven't slept for so long. You're starving, none of this places are open to eat. Like it's kind of takes a toll. And I started thinking about the allure of travel. Like, it's really fun. But we sometimes you forget how taxing it can be also, and I kind of I don't know, when I came back, I thought I still want to travel. But I also just want to really enjoy where I am right now. And including just loving being with my partner at home.
Jerry Sander:I think that that's that, you know, I feel the same way. I've got like a birthday coming up. And my first thought was, oh, I see something just opened on Broadway that I want to see. And like I looked at it was the Friday night. Tickets are over $250 Each or something. And they would be driving and parking and many people and crowded together. And I started comparing that with having some food in the backyard here and listening to the birds and hanging out and watching a movie with my beloved. And it was a no brainer. Like it was the alluring the Broadway night out. But really the deeper knowledge the wise thing was I'm gonna stay home and really love being home.
Kristy Gaisford:Mm hmm. Totally. So I think I think that when we it's easy to look at other people and think, Oh, what, what do they have that we don't? What is their marriage, like a relationship like...
Jerry Sander:Oh yeah, and -- by the way -- there are a lot of good looking people who have terrible sex lives. There if you're if you're equating good looking bodies with Oh, their sex lives must be amazing. That's a false equation.
Kristy Gaisford:That's true, it really has no correlatation.
Jerry Sander:So then you're thinking, 'Oh, if I were with them, my sex life would be completely healed and cured and ecstatic.' Not true.
Kristy Gaisford:It's funny, I watched a movie last night. And this girl is was so beautiful. And she'd be it was the life of the party. And every man would like watch her as she charmed and danced around, you know, in a room, and then it would show her go home with her husband. And she was crazy. She was a crazy nightmare. So that's like a great representation, y'know?
Jerry Sander:Oh, it's almost funny. It's like someone just looks utterly perfect. And then you find out they start talking about gluten, or something like that, or lactose intolerance and other things. And they've got a long laundry list of things wrong with them. And then their mother calls and you know, it's just not what do you think it is? I also want to laugh about this that when you're watching TV and all these ads for medicines come on, and people who are suffering from this and that and stuff. They all look like slim, happy, happy people. It's like the real people who have those problems, they don't look like that...
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, totally.
Jerry Sander:They don't look like that, these people look like the influencers who sell me the protein powder, you know? They're not...
Kristy Gaisford:Totally...
Jerry Sander:There's this actor portrayal...
Kristy Gaisford:Or what about when you see like a movie made based on a true story. And everyone's so glamorous and beautiful. And then at the end, you see the true people at the end? They really?
Jerry Sander:Oh, yeah. So...
Kristy Gaisford:Why do we have to make everybody so perfect?
Jerry Sander:Who do you think would play you in Hollywood, Kristy, if they made a movie, you know?
Kristy Gaisford:I don't know. I did have somebody come up to me in New York, though one time and said, I think you are. You answer that I got. I said, "Probably not. Who do you think I am?"And he's like "Jennifer Aniston?" And I go "No, sorry." Nope...Sorry. Sorry.
Jerry Sander:Well, I had something happened yesterday, when I was walking around the dog park. It was started out being cold warmer jacket, took it off. I was walking around with Scout. And this guy comes running up to me behind me with this woman. They're waving their hands. And I'm thinking, do I know them? And same kind of thing. Like they know me. And the guy said, You "You're walking pretty fast for someone born in 1954" And I'm thinking, "How does he know that?" He has my wallet in his hand, my wallet...
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, you're kidding?
Jerry Sander:It fell out onto the ground. So all my drivers' license....
Kristy Gaisford:That's really funny.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, he was really nice to return it. But it wasn't that I was an influencer or actor or something. So these other people are going to let us down, you're suggesting if we really got to know them, the alluring people.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, they're, they're going to have their, their own issues. And everyone's just a person. So...
Jerry Sander:Yeah. What do you do with like, the allure of the past? Now that there's Facebook and Instagram and everything else? You cannot just wonder about a boyfriend? Who you kind of wanted to continue dating in 10th grade? You can find them.
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, gosh. Yeah, I think that's a lot of people are. What did we call this the allure of other people? I think that's happening a lot. And the thing is, there's a lot of emotional affairs that are happening that way. Because they can maintain the allure because they are far away. And it is a distant thing. So they can make that person each other into whatever they want to be. But they're also they're not living with them. You know?
Jerry Sander:Yeah. And I don't know that it's all evil, you know, I'm thinking to a certain extent, if it enlivens you, and it's no secret, and you're sharing it with your spouse, you know, like, oh, my gosh, this guy, Kevin from 10th grade contacted me. And you know, we weren't we were something in 10th grade we were we were we're really alive. That can be a nice memory of aliveness that you bring to your
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, that's true. I in that spouse. book I mentioned before, it talks about the things that really make people happy versus what they think will make them happy, which, you know, fame, money, pleasure, all those things that we talked about. But the real thing is, he talks about is faith in a higher purpose, connections, connections as other people make people happier across the board. And so yeah, I mean, that's one way to, but when we do need true connections with other people, and I also think that's one reason the Boot Camps are so powerful is because there's no facade. People are not showing up, like Instagram ready. They're showing up with vulnerability and authenticity. And they're saying, "This is who I am. And this is how I struggle." And it's super bonding, because they're because everyone takes off the facade.
Jerry Sander:I think you're right. It's not just a question of reading or hearing some things from us is talking about who they are and how they got that way and finding other people supporting it. And resonating with it. Yeah, I think that's what makes the boot camps extraordinary. And again, we're doing it in May, in Salt Lake City and June in Warwick, New York, and in October in New York City, so I'm looking forward to gathering. Every time. I mean, don't you feel like we learn from every time we do it from some people, or some couple or some individual...
Kristy Gaisford:Every time, yeah. Yeah. It's just a healing place. Because I think in our culture, there is so much facade. There is so much social media and and, you know, filters, for example. Filters on their life.
Jerry Sander:Fantasy Land. Yeah, there's, we prefer it in some way. Like when you get to know, I was thinking, as you were saying, all this, that when you get to know someone, is probably after a year of solid hanging in there with them and seeing them when they're happy. They're sad, they're rich, they're poor, they're healthy, they're sick. They're annoyed, they're contempt, you get to see someone for a year like that, you get a pretty good idea of them. But that's not going to come from a 60 second ad, or a thing you see online that just swipe right or left to it's not going to happen like that.
Kristy Gaisford:No, it takes a lot of work and commitment. I mean, just yesterday, my, my me my husband, I it was just such it was a great day. But it started out. You know, he woke me up and he was grumpy. And I was grumpy. And it wasn't, it was it was there was no facade, there was no facade. In our bedroom, there was some grumpiness. And I felt bad. So I took him a drink. And while he was working, and we had a really good talk, and then we separated all day, doing our stuff, busy stuff, games, everything we all have to do. But then we ended the day with a great date night. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because relationships, there's so many different parts, you know, there's the waking up together, there's the quarreling a little bit, there's the talking through hard things, there's the having fun, you know, but it takes you have to keep revisiting and keep showing up and keep mending and keep repairing.
Jerry Sander:I love it. I mean, that's, that's part of the process, we say, has to be created every week, that you don't just go to a Boot Camp, and you're done. It's like, now you've got to like, integrate it into your week. And it's gonna be a series of judgment calls. And you could have in a previous lifetime, just gone with the bad mood. And he would have gotten in a bad mood, and whoever escalates it, you know, wins.
Kristy Gaisford:And, and the thing is, I thought through all of it, I, it was funny, because I was on a hike. And I was thinking, you know, when he acts like, grumpy, I want to wall off and act like I want nothing to do with him. And then when I act like I want nothing to do with him, that escalates his, his feelings, you know. And so I was very thoughtful about what I, the natural me would do.
Jerry Sander:Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:What I didn't want to do.
Jerry Sander:Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:Which is why I showed up with a drink and talk to him, because I'm trying to be a better version, because I want the marriage, the marriage that I want, you know?
Jerry Sander:That's a real skill. I mean, it was a skilled choice. There was nothing said you had to do it. You know, a lot of people would have forgiven you if you hadn't. But that was really nice, generous choice. I mean, when it sounds like every time you've responded with generosity, it comes back to you.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, it's in our best interest. We think, like, "Oh, I'll be the better person and all, whatever," but it's not like that. It's like, it was in my best interest. You know, what I mean?
Jerry Sander:Um-huh. Well, that's what I mean...that you're cultivating a climate of generosity that's going to come back and reward you.
Kristy Gaisford:Right, but I think people lose sight of that sometimes. And they think, "Well, I shouldn't have to be the one." Yeah. Right. And this is what I Oh, yeah, my office all the time. Like, just be the first one. If you both keep waiting for the other one to cross the room or, or make the move. You're both gonna be waiting forever somebody, but it is in your best interest.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. And that's why I always answer it when someone says, I think we need couples therapy. My partner says absolutely not. Is that okay? If I kind of do this work on myself? Yes. Yes. Yes, it is. And, you know, that person may join in may not. But either way, you're going to move forward. Yeah,
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, either way the relationship will improve somewhat and at least you'll improve.
Jerry Sander:Maybe it'll be a curiosity. "What is that woman saying in sessions to you?" or something like that? Well...
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, I, yeah, I hear that. Sometimes. They'll say, "My wife won't come, but she keeps wanting to know what you're saying."
Jerry Sander:Wow. Well, really good topic. Oh, I just wanted to say along with a culture of generosity, like I think we can cultivate a culture of authenticity, that this is who I am what I look like, at this age. Here's my good parts. Here's my bad parts. I promise to be authentic with you. It's better than image.
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, I totally agree. Yep. That's where the the true connection and belonging comes. If you have to change to try to fit in, you never truly belong.
Jerry Sander:I like that. And you know that when let downs happen, which they will, you can say, honestly, you're with a flawed person. But I've kind of knowledgeable about my flaws. And I really apologize. This one got past me.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, the thing is, I've been thinking about this, we always talk about when you're when you're triggered and upset. If you act from that place. You want to be right and protected. That's it, right? So it's like, if your partner comes at you, and you immediately put up a shield and get out your sword, you're showing them that you want the fight to continue.
Jerry Sander:And you want to be right. And it's more important than connecting. It's funny you said "right and protected" instead of "connected and protected." Yes, yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:So if you want to connect, you have to put away your armor and bring out your white flag and calmly you know, just just picture the image, I guess. And ask "What am I doing?"
Jerry Sander:Yeah, I think the words don't have to be "You're right, I'm wrong." The words can be "We can do better. This is not our best version of ourselves."
Kristy Gaisford:Help me understand. Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Yep. Good one.
Kristy Gaisford:Right. Okay. So dig into the reality of the present.
Jerry Sander:See you next time.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, take care.