What (Some) Men Say In Therapy
What do (some) men sound like in therapy, to a couples' therapist? What are their initial presenting complaints? Can generalizations safely be made, after hearing the same themes repeated over and over again? Jerry & Kristy compare notes, and try to draw some positive momentum from it.
We also offer a sample couples' relationship fight, with it reworked using skills instead of verbal hand-grenades.
Hi, welcome to LoveWork. This is Kristy Gaisford and I'm here with my co host, Jerry Sander. Hey, Jerry
Jerry Sander:Hi. Kristy, it was great being out in Salt Lake City.
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, it was so much fun to be in person with you again.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, reminds me we are people who have bodies we're not just little boxes.
Kristy Gaisford:I know it was really nice. It was great to do a boot camp in person too.
Jerry Sander:is wonderful sitting in that room with people who are working again. It was very powerful. A great experience to get to do that, again in June, June 25, and 26th. We're doing it in Pine Island, New York, which is part of Warwick, New York in the Hudson Valley, you can find everything you need to about it on our website, loveworkrelationships.com. Just go to "How We Help" and click on "Relationship Boot Camp". And you won't be sorry. Yeah. So we were going to call this podcast "What Men Say in Therapy" And then we had realization, well, how do we know what all men say in therapy? It's not really what all men say. And we're not speaking about all men and all women. Men are on a spectrum of all different types of men. And what's the value in stereotyping? I guess I asked you that question.
Kristy Gaisford:Um, well, I learned this in graduate school, one of my professors that I loved said that all stereotypes are a little bit mean, and a little bit true. And, and I think what, what, what we don't want to be as mean, but I think there is some truth, there are some themes that repeat themselves more often than than others. There's exceptions to every rule. Everybody's different and unique. And yet, I'm in Utah, you're in New York and New and I hear similar themes throughout our sessions.
Jerry Sander:I like, the way you put that. Yeah. Yeah. That is the way to frame it. This is based on what we hear themes that we hear, and we're predominantly dealing with married heterosexual couples. So this is applying to that segment of people. And it's consistent with what we're both hearing. So it is what some men sound like as presenting in therapy with, and we don't claim to be speaking about all men, or all sexual orientations or all cultures or anything. It's the sample of people who we've had our time with.
Kristy Gaisford:Right, right. Yeah. And there's still a significant segment of the population that we see.
Jerry Sander:So yeah, and again, if you hear something like two or three times from clients, okay, but if you hear a two or 300 times from clients, there is a theme.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, and, and I guess we should say, I would like to say our goal in doing this was just to help people see the other point of view, sometimes, you really can't hear it from your partner, because it triggers you a lot. And I understand that because I can even feel it as we as we do this podcast a little bit, because you can see both sides. But when you can hear it on a podcast, and you hear that hundreds of men have said this is just for understanding where I think we want both male men and women to understand each other better. So that that's our goal here.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, and we're, in every podcast we do. We're not just describing what it is we're sort of holding out an invitation to change an invitation to become more relational and more intimate. And some people will take that and some people will not. Some people are going to say now I don't I don't need or want intimacy.
Kristy Gaisford:Now, yeah, that's true, too. Yeah, I started seeing certain themes, and I thought it would be interesting to talk about because I don't know if, if, if this is expressed outside of therapy, and I think a lot of men probably feel like they're alone in these feelings and and don't really know where to talk about it, but I thought we could talk about it here.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, could I address something even before that? Which is men tend to not come into therapy and say "So, I was thinking and feeling the following..." You know, it almost has to be shown that you've established a very safe place. And that that's a normal good, okay thing to do. Because the common perception is that talking about feelings is kind of a girly, female feminine thing. Yeah, I have had many men come in, and say, I'm not sure why I'm here.
Kristy Gaisford:And it does take a while for them to figure out, they know they need something. And they know that they are feeling unsettled, and want to work through some feelings, but they're not really sure what's going to come out until they actually come in the door. And like you said, feel safe and start to unpack some things.
Jerry Sander:Gotta feel safe.
Kristy Gaisford:All right. Okay, so you're gonna have both, we both had some thoughts and wrote down some things you want me to go first?
Jerry Sander:We'll take turns.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, we'll take We'll take turns. Okay. So one thing is that I hear is that men feel often like they're taken for granted in the work that they provide. And if they talk about how hard work is, they'll get answers. Like, we'll just find something else, or Oh, that's too bad, or they're not really listened to. And sometimes they feel like they're their partner, or their family just takes their the hard work that they do every single day in providing for their family for granted. And then they hear more complaints like, well, you're never here, or why did you get home late, or you're just so busy with work all the time. And I'm not saying there isn't another side to the story. But a lot of times the men feel like, but I am working so hard. And I don't feel like I get appreciated for the stress that I take on every day for our family, for the stress that I go through and making sure that you're provided for. And instead I feel like, well, yeah, yeah, that everybody works. And you'd be working, whether you are with me or not. So why should I have to give you credit for that? When they feel like that I'm, I'm providing this life for you. And a little appreciation would go a long way. Have you ever heard anything like that?
Jerry Sander:Not only have I heard things like that over and over? It's pretty much number three on my list word for word thing. So , yeah, let me respond to what you said, Well, let me share what I wrote. Because I think we're saying the same thing. Here's, here's my number three, I'd put it in first person voice. I don't know where she thinks the money is coming from, because it's certainly not from her. She expects me to bring home what I bring home. And then when I do that she gets upset that I'm not home or helping out with the home or with the kids. I feel like an ATM machine that gets yelled at. Wow,
Kristy Gaisford:that's painful. You said that well.
Jerry Sander:It's a bind. It's like someone who's trying to do what he learned a good man should do. And then being told -- or being made to feel -- somehow that's not what a good man should do. is confusing. And yet, there's a certain lifestyle that has to be supported with bills that has to be paid. This is definitely stuff that has to be talked about as a couple.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.
Jerry Sander:Otherwise, you get a miserable guy complaining that he's some sort of, you know, ATM machine who gets yelled at.
Kristy Gaisford:The other thing is I hear and I think I can see why they're terrified to say this because they don't want to come across as male chauvinist. But there's this feeling of I work so hard. And I, I would, I would like to ask in return, that these things be done, you know that the house is cleaned up that there's food on the table sometimes, or at least in the covers? Not that they're there. They're willing to cook and things to but they're like, I don't feel like an asset or I'll feel like this male chauvinist. But at the same time, I don't want to resent the fact that I'm working so hard, and I come home and there's nothing like nothing's been done.
Jerry Sander:I think that's like a pile of dynamite. No, it's even hard to read it for you that
Kristy Gaisford:I know! It's even hard for me to bring it up!
Jerry Sander:because it all depends on the arrangement that you've made, when you entered into it. And that all depends on what you saw growing up pretty much and either what you're trying to imitate or rebel against...So that's a very conventional arrangement that you might have seen in the 1950s or before feminism of you know, I'll do this, I will work very hard and bring home a bunch of money for us. But please, your role is to keep this place looking nice and put food on the table. Well, that is one way to do it. That's one way. And women worked pretty hard in the 1960s. To blow that up into well, there's many ways, why can't you cook? Or why can't I earn more money? Or why can't we both be responsible for the house?
Kristy Gaisford:And I think it comes back to the expectation and communication and the arrangement. Because yeah, obviously, there's many ways to do it. But when it's not talked about, and I also think it's, it's about the how these things are split up. If one person feels like they're doing a lot more than the other person. That's where the resentment comes in.
Jerry Sander:Yes, yes. Whether it's slaving away cleaning up the house, and you're not even noticing it, or, quote, slaving away to bring in money from the outside and you're not really noticing it. That's the key source of resentment, not feeling seen and valued.
Kristy Gaisford:Exactly.
Jerry Sander:And it is amazing how people walk into these relationships kind of blindly, not even knowing they're about to duplicate what they saw, or longing for it to be the way that they grew up. You know, my parents did not argue directly in front of me, almost ever before they got divorced. But I do remember moments where my father would say longingly on a Saturday morning. You know, my mother used to make the most amazing breakfast dish for me, and he would describe it. And my mother would say real tersely, "Good. Why don't you call her up? See if she's available to do that." I had a feeling there's trouble in paradise here. Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Not and not. They didn't know how to communicate in a way that that would work for both of them.
Jerry Sander:No, there were a lot of underlying resentments. But all right, you ready for my first one? Yeah. Because I'm a writer, I put them all as like first person.
Kristy Gaisford:That's great. And you're a guy.
Jerry Sander:I am a guy, but I did it for the females too. Okay, ready? I know it sounds bad. But everything changed after having kids. Very little interest in sex. It's like she could wit live with it. She could live without it. She's always tired, and puts the kids first. Ever hear that?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, I'm just laughing because our list we have not talked about this in our list are the same. So I wrote. I feel like I'm way too far down on her list. Definitely after the kids. And I feel like she can take me or leave me.
Jerry Sander:Wow, same sentiment, almost the same words. This is huge. Guys feeling like, Okay, we had kids. I know that was important to you. I'm guessing it was important to me too. But now that means I get to be the bottom of the list all the time, always?
Kristy Gaisford:And they'll say, like, I'll have men say I just want some attention. I want some time with her. I want some affection, and they won't get it. And then they'll see their wife turn around and give tons of affection to the kids. And it hurts so much that she has that to give, but not to them.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. You know, as I'm listening to this, I'm thinking some people are going to be triggered by our whole I know, they're thinking, you know, they're thinking we're saying things should be very, very conventional. And everything men say are right. We're not saying this is right or wrong. We're just saying this is what people say. This is what we hear. This is I think of it as this is the starting point. This is people's presenting arguments. You know, these are their presenting complaints. And what we do as good couples therapists is help people move from complaint to requests. So here's how they come in off the street. This is what they sound like Right? She always puts the kids first, I'm last. I'm in the doghouse. It's never going to change.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And then we help them come up with a healthy request and shift some things so that they're they're both happier and they don't have resentment. So I'm glad you clarified that.
Jerry Sander:Yep. All right. You've got one on your list?
Kristy Gaisford:A big one. Another big one is I want to be wanted sexually. I want my wife to be a sexual being who wants sex who doesn't just want to please me, or Let me hurry and get it done. I want her to want to be pleasured. I want her to want to be a sexual being and want me and I don't want to always be the one that is initiating. Or just having her like, okay, we can do this Hurry up. I want it to be a shared experience.
Jerry Sander:Absolutely. I think we covered some of this when we talked about codependent sex. Yeah, we did episodes ago, because it's the same thing. Like it's not no one wants to feel just accommodated. In that way. Like, okay, are you happy now? Like, you want someone who wants to be this way with you and finds it valuable and exciting. So that's a real sadness in a lot of relationships. If a man's saying that and feeling that something's really gone askew, and there's a lot of defensive feelings about it. Lots of times, I think women will link it up to something else. Well, how do you expect me to feel bleah when I'm when you're doing blah?
Kristy Gaisford:I also think men are misunderstood. I'm not saying they're never like this, but I think they're misunderstood. And that, oh, they just want sex, or they just want to use my body for sex, or they just want to. I'm just objectified. The men that I talk to you do not feel that way. They really want to connect with their wife. They love their wife.
Jerry Sander:I'm glad you're finding that because I think that's the truth that men want to connect through and via sex. And mostly, it seems like women want to connect, and then include sex. So I think there's almost always a strategic issue. How do we do both? How do we accommodate both and not steamroll over anyone's feelings? And I think that whole idea of foreplay, including emotional connection, it goes to this topic, but I had almost the same thing written again, is what you had. Mine said, number five was, I want it to be like it used to be when we were first dating.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Or first having sex?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Whenever that happened.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Did you want to go next?
Jerry Sander:Yeah, let's see. Okay. She's always on the phone, or texting either her mother, sister, or girlfriends.
Kristy Gaisford:I didn't write that one. But that's true, too. I've heard that a lot too. Yep, distracted. And I know what the woman would say, because I could say it myself. But that doesn't negate how the man feels, Yeah, feels neglected, he wants more attention. So the woman would say, I have so many balls in the air that I'm constantly trying to, to, you know, put out these fires and get everybody else taken care of. And I'm the one dealing with all the kids and all of their things. And you have the luxury of not having to do all that. The planning of it. So yes, I have to send all these texts, because I'm arranging all these schedules, and you don't realize what goes into that. So...
Jerry Sander:And also, do you think that it's true, or a myth that women are more relational day to day reaching out to include others in their orbit? More than men do?
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, absolutely. And women need other women. Women need their women friends, they get different things from them. But that leads to my next thing, I think. I think women need other women. Because women are better at being relational and saying the things that they need to hear. But one of the things I hear from men is it's not that I don't want to relate to my wife emotionally. It's that I really don't know how. And it's like trying to speak a language I don't know. And I feel like she wants all this from me that I don't know how to give. And sometimes I feel a panic like, I know she's wanting something for me, but I don't I don't know what it is. And she asked me these questions and I'm like, I don't know what you want for me. And so then I shut down, and then she's upset that I shut down. And then that leads to find out go talk to my girlfriend's because he's so bad at this. You know, um, that's how it ties in. But I don't feel like they don't want to be there. I don't think they were raised to know how to have the conversation sometimes.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. I mean, if you've never heard someone speak a language, that you've never seen it much on TV even. And you're suddenly being accused of not speaking that language? Well, yeah. I don't know Serbo.-Croatian? You know, I don't know it. I'm glad you do, but I don't. So I do have to learn it. Now, I guess I would say any effort in the direction of speaking and emotional language should be welcomed. And, once again, I'm afraid we're going to be misunderstood the saying that any time of man does anything more than grunts, he should be applauded and supported and stuff? Well, in a way, yes. Because if you want a more communicative spouse, when they try, you can either focus on well, that fell short of what I expected. Or, alright, we're talking, you know, this is great. Terry real tells the story of a person with a little plant, you know, like you don't, you know, come up with a sledge hammer and hit the little plant, because there's not an oak tree. What's wrong with you, you know, try and help something grow. And that means it's going to
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. sound messed up, you know, when people start talking. It's not. It's not like, therapy is presented on TV or in the movies, we're just get to the meat of it fast. So a lot of false moves. And, you know, just trying, we're flawed. We're really flawed. And guys who aren't used to talking. I wonder if I should tell that story. Why, yeah, I give, give this client, the assignment of taking four minutes and just sharing anything about what it's like to be him with his spouse. And he was in construction. And he really sort of panicked, like, he didn't know what to do, what what was I asking him to do? Let's just ask them to talk for four minutes uninterrupted. Then after around 30 seconds of silence, he finally said, "Saw dust." And his wife said, "What"? And he said "Sawdust. There was a lot of sawdust today." Now that might be what she was expecting. You know, I'm sure she was thinking, "Well, how did you feel about this?" but at least he started talking. And he got in his head "Wow, she's really listening!" So that's a small step. But to me, it was beautiful. That is beautiful. I think that leads to my next one is that a lot of men feel like their wives are always trying to change them, trying to get them to be something else. And I can see why. I mean, we do want more from each other. But I think if if, if men can feel loved and accepted for who they are right now, then they're more willing to grow. But if they feel like they're always falling short, they can start to feel like Why Why bother? Because I'm never going to please her. I'll never be enough.
Jerry Sander:That's right. That's right. I mean, how can we how can we do this without encouraging codependency? Because codependency to me is it's your role to always make me feel good. And that's just how it's going to be you know, that that there's no mutuality and codependent pendants for me. So the idea that maybe you could encourage me when I'm starting something, because I of course will do the same for you. I will encourage you, when you're doing new things, I'm I like to tell my wife that I'm her biggest fan, and I'm president of her fan club, you know, well, if I'm president of your fan club, maybe you could be president of mine and we could find a way to both support each other. And that way the score won't be one to nothing or we won't get into a role that's fixed with me needing your support all the time and not seeing that you need support, too.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And the flip side of that is well that, like, you're not my problem. Take care of yourself. I don't really care what you need. You need to deal with it yourself
Jerry Sander:Alright, sorry for this interruption, but it's summertime and I'll use any excuse to play surf music. So Kristy and I are going to be doing our Boot Camp live in the Hudson Valley in Warwick, New York, June 25, and 26th. There is a time and place for you there if you want to join us. If you're working on skills, learning skills, want to practice skills and do it with your partner, or do it by yourself, go to our website, loveworkrelationships.com, click on "how we help" scroll down to Relationship Boot Camp and you will find out all you need to do we hope, hope you'll join us.
Kristy Gaisford:So it is a middle ground, right? We're part is middle ground, partners. Together, we love each other. So it's in our best interest to help the other person get their needs met.
Jerry Sander:And it kind of is what a good person does. You want to help out and you want to encourage and you feel good. When you encourage someone. I mean, it comes back to you it gets it comes back to you.
Kristy Gaisford:OK, what do you mean by encourage, though, because I'm feeling I'm thinking like, Hey, have you thought about you said you wanted to lose weight? How have you done on your program like that wouldn't be encouraging. I don't think that would be encouraging.
Jerry Sander:It would sound something like "I really appreciated you telling me your feelings about the struggles, you know, like that are going on in your life right now, even with weight..."
Kristy Gaisford:So like saying something they've done and really focusing on what you appreciate.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, and that is not a lie either. Not saying coming up with a good thing to say, it has to be true that I really appreciate that we connected in talking before even if nothing's resolved, quote unquote. I think people are too fast to look for solutions. I think the process is beautiful, or it's disconnected if it's disconnected. And you and I both know, it's part of married life. There's moments of real disconnection in every week. And, you know, harmony, disharmony and repairs the the wave of it all. So, disconnection is not the end. I mean, we're in this for the long game. If you're going to love better, you had better be in it for the long game. Yeah, just can't judge by any one week.
Kristy Gaisford:And you have to be able to sit with the moments of disrepair without lashing out or making them worse. Sometimes you just don't feel great. And you just say, Well, yeah, okay, this is part of being in a long term relationship.
Jerry Sander:And I think as specific as we can get with our partners, the better. It's almost like a camera. I've been thinking about cameras a lot. I miss my old camera, I just want to focus in on a small area as we can to make progress. Because I think we get caught up sometimes feeling like as part of all these big issues in our life, what we've seen in Boot Camps and using the feedback wheel when you make a small, and you actually ask someone to do something nice. And they can say yes, it's the beginning of a real change. So I love when people get small. And then they'll usually say something like, well, that doesn't solve X, Y or Z, you know, I know. I know. But it feels good, doesn't it? It's nice to start building on something.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And it builds trust, because you realize, well, I can ask for something. And they can respond. And then I feel like wow, I could actually bring that up and they didn't get upset and they they actually listened to make the change. So I now I trust more.
Jerry Sander:Being seen and valued. And you know, guys, since we're talking about men, guys can get this narrative in their head. We spoke about the narrative of what a good man is, you know that he just goes and works and brings home a lot of money and that's it. But you can change the narrative to extraordinary directions that you never saw with your parent. You can be a father and a husband, the likes of which you've never seen. So I would encourage people to sort of blow up the idea that they thought they had about the parameters and what a good man does, and open it up some more. So I can't imagine my father having helped more around the house with some clean up and stuff, he just didn't do it. I can't imagine it. It doesn't mean that I can't.
Kristy Gaisford:Or that you can't change. A lot of people think, well, that's just how I am. But you can change.
Jerry Sander:It's such a crock. "This is just how I am." What does that mean? That's how I was last week?
Kristy Gaisford:I think it means "That's how I want to be."
Jerry Sander:That's what it's really saying "I prefer it. I prefer being the same." Just admit it, you know, we're trying to get people in therapy to face things with honesty. Admit it, there's a secondary gain to defining...You know, I remember seeing a documentary once many years ago, and a guy was an auto worker. And he said, When I come home at the end of an eight hour shift, assembling
Kristy Gaisford:Right. these cars and stuff, I am not going to help around the house. I'm just not going to do
Jerry Sander:Because if I can just come it. And he was presenting it as like, "Don't ask anything else from me. And by the way, go get me a sandwich, okay?" So that if that guy says "I can't change," he really is saying, "It's kind of nice to not change," right? home, and then the woman probably was feeling "Eight hours? I would love to work just eight hours." I worked eight,
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. I mean, when when he y'know.... thinks like I don't want to change because it's working out. What's missing is true intimacy. And they're not really it seems like in that kind of situation, you're not really seeing each other, you're both going through the motions.
Jerry Sander:Yes.
Kristy Gaisford:And you're not really connecting to the deeper feelings and things that are going on underneath the surface. It's not...
Jerry Sander:That guy would have said "True intimacy? My father didn't have true intimacy. My grandfather didn't have true intimacy. It's the I don't know what she's talking about. That's one of those Croatian words, you know, it's true intimacy.
Kristy Gaisford:I would say...
Jerry Sander:Some people will settle...
Kristy Gaisford:If you've never had true intimacy, true, emotional, spiritual, intellectual, physical, and sexual intimacy, you've never had the, the best interest form of, of any intimacy, and especially sexual intimacy. So it all comes together. And so men who think maybe they're really into sex, but they don't care about intimacy, they've, they've missed out on one of the most beautiful things in life.
Jerry Sander:I think that's our potential selling point there. That you know, you think you think you have a great sex life? Wait till you have true intimacy, and no resentments happening? That's just the truth. So my last one on my list, Kristy was, this is what guys will say, if you get them far enough along they'll say, "I'm just tired. It's relentless."
Kristy Gaisford:Can you say more? A little bit more? What? What's relentless life, the relationship?
Jerry Sander:Um, well, depends. If you have kids, the circle goes something like: work, work harder. Think about how you can work even harder and better. Bring home money, try to be responsive to what the requests are at home and then take the kids for some enjoyable sports activities or something which may or may not be enjoyable if they're organized team sports, you know, and then go back to work.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I think we can all
Jerry Sander:Well, that's that's the relate to that.
irony:it's not just men. You know, our next podcast, we're going to talk about what women say, because I hear, you know, not to give it away. But that's pretty universal with anyone who has kids. I'm just tired is relentless.
Kristy Gaisford:So my last one was, "I want I want my wife to be into me and proud of me." And they men also want compliments. They want to feel like their wife's attracted to them. I think it's hard for them to say that or to ask for that. But they're also...they also want reassurance. It's not just women that are insecure about their looks men would love it if their wife said, "I'm really attracted to you. You look really handsome today. I'm proud...
Jerry Sander:I love that you said this. I love it. Because yeah,sometimes guys will hear things like, "Are you gonna keep your mustache like that?"
Kristy Gaisford:Or "Are you gonna wear that shirt?"
Jerry Sander:Yeah, "That shirt? Okay. How old is that shirt?" You know, something, and men are as insecure as anyone else. That feeling that there's a certain way you're supposed to be, you know, not, not all men are George Clooney, you know? And I think I think you're right, that they have a core of insecurity that women can either....This is not me saying that women need to prop up an insecure male ego. This is me saying that it's a kindness to be kind to another person. And if you're involved with a man, it could be kind or it could go the other way.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes you think the things and you don't say it, like, "Oh, you look nice today," like you would say to a friend. I guess I do have one more. I just thought I'd add at the end.
Jerry Sander:Good.
Kristy Gaisford:It is universal, but I think it happens more often to men, so I'll put it in this one.When a man initiates sex, and is turned down, it hurts, usually. And so I think just being aware of that, that if if there's, if if you're turning your husband down, then you wouldn't want to initiate sometimes, because it hurts. It feels like a rejection. And I hear that a lot.
Jerry Sander:That's a good one. And it's definitely time to talk about it, too. If there, there are other things that are getting in the way and just need to be process because you're right, it can't easily be substituted for like, you know, like, no, no to sex, but we can play Scrabble, you know, it's not really the same thing.
Kristy Gaisford:And I just wanted to say it, because I think sometimes men don't say I feel hurt, or I feel rejected, they just withdraw. And so I'm just putting the words out there,
Jerry Sander:That's a good one. Good. Well, these are all beautiful starting points. You know, what, when we have our clients say things like this, this is all stuff that we work with. It's not ending points, right? These are all invitations to conversations, I think, if they're handled, right. So if you're listening, and you've resonated with any of these, know that you're at a good, good starting point. Not an ending point.
Kristy Gaisford:Would you like to do our fight?
Jerry Sander:Oh, yeah, we sort of gonna explain what, why we're fighting.
Kristy Gaisford:So we're fighting because we've realized through our therapy, and all the Boot Camps, we've done that most people never really learned how to do a proper repair. And there's not a lot of good modeling out there. And so we thought we would do at the end of each podcast, a fight that we can all relate to, and then how you would do it differently. And how
Jerry Sander:Yeah. All unscripted, by the that sounds. way. So we have years of experience of being defensive though, so we can we can do this. Yep.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay.
Jerry Sander:All right. You You were gonna bring it
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. So...Oh, hey, you're home. I thought you
Jerry Sander:Uh-huh.
Kristy Gaisford:I thought you said you're gonna be home like, an hour and a half ago.
Jerry Sander:I don't remember. I don't remember when I said I'd be home an hour and a half ago.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. The other night when I said I've been really overwhelmed this week.
Jerry Sander:Well, you're not the only And you said I could come home early on Friday to give you some time. And I'm...here you are again. Putting work over over me. one who's overwhelmed around here. Like I have my own overwhelming stuff at work. And
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, but you said, you said you would come home early on Friday. Remember, on Tuesday when we were talking about it?
Jerry Sander:I mean, a lot of things got said on Tuesday. I'm trying to remember right now. I don't...Do you want to quote my words? I don't remember.
Kristy Gaisford:So I guess everybody's saying I'm making it up.
Jerry Sander:I ...
Kristy Gaisford:You, know what, it's fine. It's fine. Clearly my needs...
Jerry Sander:Oh, no. Oh, now you're going to be the martyr.
Kristy Gaisford:Clearly my needs aren't important to you.
Jerry Sander:So I crushed your week...I crushed your week. And I just clearly your needs aren't important to me?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, you don't even remember the conversation and you didn't come home. So clearly it wasn't important to you.
Jerry Sander:How many conversations have we had this week? It's like been, that was one of them. Did you get the garbage bags by the way? Did you? Or did you forget?
Kristy Gaisford:I always laugh at the the point we could go like, nuclear. And go on and on.
Jerry Sander:Well, that was terrible. Okay. Blechhh.
Kristy Gaisford:Yuck, yuck, yuck.
Jerry Sander:All right.
Kristy Gaisford:So now do I save it?
Jerry Sander:Let's try and do the same thing better.
Kristy Gaisford:So I'll start badly. So you can do repair? Yeah. Okay, so, oh, you're home? Only an hour and a half later than you said you would be home.
Jerry Sander:What are you talking about? I just got out of the car and close the door and walked in.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, it's Friday night. And we talked earlier this week that I would have you come home early so I can have time to myself? Because I'm so overwhelmed from the week. Remember, we talked about it earlier? On Tuesday? I
Jerry Sander:I...on Tuesday? I'm sorry. I'm struggling to remember. Ummmm....I don't...Where were we when we had that talk?
Kristy Gaisford:It doesn't even matter. Obviously...
Jerry Sander:Wait, wait, wait. we may no, no. No. Kristy, it matters. It matters. I've been forgetting a bunch this week. I'm sorry. Sorry. It's quite that sounds like something I did say. It sounds like it sounds like I had this good intent. And I may have just screwed it up. I'm sorry. I've been pretty self involved. But I've been worried about work. It doesn't make it right. I'm sorry. How can, um, what can I do that would help make it up to? Because I hear that you're saying you just need some time for yourself. So if I watched the kids are sent out for dinner or something? Would that help at all?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.
Jerry Sander:Okay. I, I do Okay, so for bonus points. In real life, if the person said "I imagined it got to, it has to feel really crummy that I forgot..."
Kristy Gaisford:Ummm-huhh....That was...I could feel myself melting it the longer you talked it was like I was so hurt and so upset. And the more you could acknowledge it without me having to get you to see what you did wrong. I could just be still and listen to you tell me what you did wrong. I could feel myself melting and softening.
Jerry Sander:Okay. So it was the acknowledgement that I really had done something wrong. That led to it not being you know, the end or World War Three. And that allows for a new reparative something to happen that could get it moving in a good direction again.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.
Jerry Sander:Okay. So when we screw up folks, and we will...
Kristy Gaisford:Yes, we will.
Jerry Sander:Just acknowledge it and be honest, and don't hide behind the things I was hiding behind and my first attempt.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. That was great. Good job.
Jerry Sander:Well, so next time we talk about women, I'll be quieter.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay. Great. Thank you for all your insights.
Jerry Sander:Thank you, Kristy for you. We'll see you next time.