When the Adaptive Child Insists on Prevailing

Kristy (00:02)
Hi, welcome to LoveWork. This is Kristy Gaisford and I'm here with my partner, Jerry Sander. Hey, how you doing, Jerry?

Jerry (00:08)
Hey, Kristy. Good, good to see you. Good to be back.

Kristy (00:12)
Yeah, you too. Today we have a topic that was suggested by Heather. And so we want to give a shout out to Heather and G. The topic is what do you do when you or your partner gets stuck in their adaptive child, that immature part for an extended period of time? Like we all get triggered and go into our adaptive child for moments.

Jerry (00:32)
Yeah.

Kristy (00:43)
But what do we do when it's extended? It stays at a time or weeks. don't know.

Jerry (00:48)
And let's just give a context. came, they were in a bootcamp that we just ran in New York city, which was wonderful. And this is kind of an advanced level question. So those of you who are listening, have no idea of our vocabulary. Come to a bootcamp. We've got one coming up in a week from this weekend in Western Massachusetts. And then two weeks after that in Salt Lake city, right? So East coast, West coast, I just got a

We're giving shout out, so shout out to Western Massachusetts. The Pioneer Valley is a beautiful area. And if I didn't live in the Hudson Valley, which is a beautiful area, I would have chosen the Pioneer Valley. So come visit it and come visit Salt Lake City and or don't come to both boot camps, but come to one of them. this vocabulary that we're using will make much more sense, but we're going to try and make this accessible to everyone, right?

Kristy (01:30)
Hmm.

Thank

Yes, yes. So if you don't know what we mean by adaptive child, it's just the immature part of you that gets really stuck in your ego and really, really wants to be right and really wants to protect yourself. And I think everyone can relate to being in that place.

Jerry (02:08)
Yeah, yeah, you can call it what you want, but it is definitely the fighter in you or the fleer or the fixer, but many of you will just react to, yeah, you mean like the fighter, okay.

Kristy (02:23)
Mm-hmm. So I would like to first address when your partner is in their adaptive child for an extended period of time. I think that it's such a difficult thing. think many of us can handle it when our partner's triggered or in their adaptive child. We can handle it for minutes or maybe hours, maybe a day where...

It takes a lot of muscle, but we're like, okay, they're having a bad day. Let me just be patient with them. But as the time goes on and on and gets stretched out, I think it's really hard to keep that patience and the resistance gets less when you kind of want to go, you know what, I've had it with you and go into your own adoptive child.

or however you tend to handle it, but it does get harder and harder the longer it goes on.

Jerry (03:20)
Yeah, so we're using this concept to suggest that this is not actually the other person's fault. That even if the other person did something that upsets your partner, really pisses them off even. It's not your fault that they go into their adaptive child, right? I mean, we teach that there's always a choice.

Kristy (03:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (03:49)
even when you're pissed off or triggered. So if they've gotten there, it's not right to pummel yourself like, my gosh, I caused this, I need to fix this.

However, it's pretty unpleasant. And anything you can do to contribute to it being fixed is helpful.

Kristy (04:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. And sometimes you can't really do anything. I mean, that's what we're going to talk about. But it really is up to yourself to when you're in your adaptive childhood, you're the only one that can actually pull you out of it. So.

Jerry (04:33)
Yeah. And I think of that saying that I used to have on my wall at work. It's the school job. When things go wrong, don't go with them. So you're in a situation where things are kind of going wrong or haywire for your partner and they may be provocative to you or throwing hand grenades in your direction. And that is your moment of choice. Do I join in and

Fight, let's just use fight for an example because I'm being attacked and it's a

Kristy (05:07)
Yeah, or a lot of times they just are being ice cold and ignoring you. It could go either way. But I think you're right. I think the very first step is to take a step away and to really breathe and really get clear about what's going on. Really take the time to get centered in yourself. Like, okay, my partner's clearly not in their best place.

and what do I need to do to keep myself centered in this situation?

Jerry (05:42)
That's a beautiful way of putting it. My partner's not in their best place, you know, and it's compassionate too. Something's upsetting them. Something's really going wrong for them. Yikes. that's not good. You know, I care for them. What's going on and how can I, how can I handle it? Now, obviously self-protection is first and foremost. and that's why this is difficult because as much as you want to help your person,

Kristy (05:55)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (06:12)
If you do feel under assault, it's pretty natural to want to protect yourself.

Kristy (06:21)
Well, and the thing is, remember that if they're in their adaptive child, they don't want to be close to you. So you can try.

Jerry (06:28)
Yeah, say more about that. Explain that because they're your partner. They're close to you. What's happening? Yeah.

Kristy (06:33)
Because when you're triggered, you don't want intimacy. People don't feel safe to you or you feel justified in being upset and you're blaming your partner. And so you're not in a place where you want to repair. If you're still triggered, you're wanting distance or you're wanting to prove that you're right and your partner's wrong and...

it's not really safe to keep trying to repair if the person is going to stay in their adoptive child. So that's why it's so important to get clear with yourself and take time for yourself so you don't get pulled into the fray of just making it worse.

Jerry (07:18)
Yeah, yeah. What seems key to me is timing and safety. that's actually I'll reverse the order of that. The first thing is, is this safe? Is this place and conversation safe? And for someone say who's come from a family of origin where verbal abuse was a big thing. If it starts getting abusive sounding, there's like an

Kristy (07:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (07:46)
automatic trigger of this isn't safe. This is not a safe conversation. And that's something that I think you just have to absolutely remove yourself from. Like, and there's ways of doing it, of saying, you know, my favorite way of removing yourself if you need to is I'm overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed by the direction this conversation has just gone. I don't like it. Doesn't feel safe. Doesn't feel good. I want to talk about whatever we have to talk about.

at three o'clock today or eight a.m. tomorrow, but I don't want to just keep doing this.

Kristy (08:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I also think because if this is going on and on, it's not just a conversation. I think one practice that really helps is the practice of abundance. And that's just taking time by yourself and saying to yourself, this really hurts. I really, really don't like it when my partner and I are at odds and when

Jerry (08:39)
Hmm.

Kristy (08:52)
They're in their adoptive child for a long time and they can't seem to get through to them. And I don't like it at all. It feels terrible. And I'm not going to die. It's going to be okay. I'm okay. I'm not, I'm not dying. I can practice abundance, meaning what is it that I can still appreciate so I don't get drawn into this and lose myself. I can still go on a walk.

fill the air in my lungs, fill the sun on my face. I can take time to just enjoy the beauty of the world or listen to beautiful music, listen to a podcast that is uplifting to me or a book I could call a friend. can, anything that helps you stay in your centered place and remember that I don't.

I'm going to be okay. Regardless of what's happening with my partner, I just need to manage myself.

Jerry (09:58)
I have a question about that because a lot of people, I mean, I agree. I do agree, but a lot of people I see are overwhelmed with anxiety. That. Arguments equal the end of the relationship. my gosh, we're breaking up or this is the wrong relationship or I knew it would end or have had friends who are getting divorced and maybe this is how it.

Kristy (10:00)
Okay.

Jerry (10:28)
ends or something. And that makes it very hard for them to just go for a walk and do the things you just said because they think everything's ending. That this is some sort of litmus test for how bad we are, the relationship. So I guess my question would be for you, how do you do that and hold on to the reality that the relationship is going to have ups and downs?

and this isn't one of our most fun moments.

Kristy (11:02)
Well, I think that's when you need to do this more than ever because if you believe the relationship is going to end, you're going to act irrationally, you're going to overreact, you're going to catastrophize, you're going to chase down your partner, you're going to try to control them or you're going to get revenge somehow. Like everything you're doing is going to be from fight or flight. And that's why you need this more than ever.

I'm not going to die and even if the relationship does end, I'm going to figure out a way to be okay. And I need to be okay with me and I need to be in a strong and calm enough place that I can see what's really happening and address it from my wise adult self. Because that's not a wise adult self who's saying the relationship's over, everything's going to end. You know, that's a very scared child who's saying that.

Jerry (11:55)
I appreciate that. I think speaking personally, you know, I'm, and I would speak to everyone who's gone through a divorce, whether it be your parents or your own, that I've talked about how divorce is sort of a template for failure. And if you've seen that with your parents, say, and lived in fear of it, and then had that happen in your own life in a marriage once, it makes direct.

It makes it extra difficult to say in a second marriage, yeah, we're having not a great day. It doesn't mean, my gosh, this too is going to go down the drain. There's an extra element of anxiety that makes some sort of internal sense that what gets cued is, I've seen this before. This is how it goes. But I do think...

that that's a distortion of the adaptive child, not the wise adult who can actually remind you, wait a minute, this person is really different. The person who I'm married to or partnered with is really different from the other situations and the other people. We're having a crummy day and arguing about it in a crummy way. And we can do better.

Kristy (13:18)
I also I learned this from your boundary exercise that we do in boot camp, but this is on a much bigger level. But what you teach is that your yes doesn't mean much if you can't say no. And if you take that on a big level in a relationship, if you can't handle saying no to the relationship, if you can't live without it, then you can't fully live in it.

Jerry (13:33)
That's right.

Kristy (13:48)
Like it has, you have to be able to be okay without it to be able to really choose it. If you feel like I'm gonna die without a relationship and then you're hanging on to it in desperation, that's not a very healthy relationship. Like you wanna be sturdy enough that you don't have to be desperate about it. It's like, I...

Jerry (14:04)
Yeah.

Kristy (14:14)
I will be okay no matter what happens. I will find a way to be resilient and be okay. If the worst thing happened to me and I was by myself, I would figure out a way to have a good life. It wouldn't, it's not what I choose. I wouldn't be happy or excited about it. I'd have a lot of pain, disappointment, sadness. I'm not saying those things wouldn't exist, but somehow I would find a way to be okay. And, and from that place, okay.

Jerry (14:29)
It's not what I choose. I wouldn't be happy or excited about

Mm-hmm.

Kristy (14:44)
now let me deal with my relationship. But if I'm like, I will die without this relationship. I don't know what I'm going to do. It's not a healthy place to approach it.

Jerry (14:50)
Yeah.

Yeah. No, and it's not, it's also not the least bit attractive. Sandra Bernhardt, the comedian used to have a tour, a comedy tour she called, Without You I'm Nothing, you know? And yeah, that's desperate and unattractive and actually the opposite of what probably attracted you to the person initially. You saw someone who kind of...

Kristy (15:00)
No.

Mmm, yeah.

Jerry (15:18)
was cool and could stand by themselves and have a good life and seemed, you know, interesting and attractive, not desperate to have a relationship with you. I doubt you would have gone on a second date if you met someone who was desperate for a relationship with you, you know. So.

Kristy (15:31)
Mm-hmm.

And on the other side, it also means a lot when you choose to stay because you don't have to be there. You're there because you want to be there and you mean it, you know. It means a lot to you. So and you can trust that.

Jerry (15:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

So if you can find the wise adult in you in the midst of a barrage of your partner going off on you or off on themselves or just spinning around in a world of hurt and if you can say something that will not make it worse, you know, don't make a situation worse with words.

Kristy (16:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry (16:18)
That's the search. What can I say that's true that doesn't throw me under the rug, that doesn't automatically say everything you're saying is right, but helps.

Kristy (16:30)
Well, I think the thing I put next is I think it really helps if you've done the practice of abundance, you've taken some time. If you then, from this wise place, take time, put your own ego aside, which is hard, and try to put yourself in your partner's What might they be thinking? What stories might they be telling themselves?

Are they struggling with something in their life that has nothing to do with me? Is my energy contributing to the dynamic of the relationship? Are you reacting to them and adding fuel to the fire that you're not even totally aware of? Are you being maybe more cold and distant as a reaction to them being in their adaptive child and it's

Jerry (17:09)
Okay, let's yell. Go ahead.

Kristy (17:28)
fueling the fire so to speak. Like I didn't realize how much I contribute to the dynamic in my marriage without saying anything. Because my energy

Jerry (17:37)
You mean just by having a cold, distant energy.

Kristy (17:43)
Well, yeah, like we're angry or I mean, I might think I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything, but my energy says a lot without words. And my husband's really taught me that. Like you don't have to say anything. Your energy speaks it all the way across the house, you know? So I think sometimes we're ignorant to our own energy and the role that we're playing in the whole dynamic.

Jerry (18:09)
I like that point because our own energy is much larger than the words that we say. Words are only a tiny part of it. You know, I'm a great skeptic about words like, I'm sorry or something. It's like the energy has to be right and it has to be in a aligned energy. And I agree, you can tell when you are connected as a couple with your energy in a good place and you can tell when it's wonky.

Kristy (18:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (18:38)
And it's really interesting how you can have a whole day that's sort of off kilter with your spouse or partner. And, you even, you know, even the slightest thing can just like continue that day. You know, I mean, my wife might say something completely right, like, could could you take off your shoes? You know, we said we were going to take off our shoes and it'll be exactly the wrong moment.

for what I was hoping to have be in that moment. And then it'll be like, yeah, this whole morning's like this. The whole morning is like this. When are you gonna do this? Well, I thought you were doing that. It's just not smooth and easy. And then other times it's like effortlessly easy. And I think this is what happens if you're in a long-term relationship.

Kristy (19:18)
Yeah.

Totally.

Jerry (19:33)
And you also get to know the direction that the other person is going off in. You can recognize it. It's usually one of only around four directions. And it's usually one of only three or four arguments, actually.

Kristy (19:39)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right. But yeah, I think if you can take the time to really put yourself in their shoes and think about how they might be feeling, it would be easier to reach out to them from a really sincere place. You know, like...

Jerry (20:02)
It's hard though, sometimes, right? It's hard to put yourself in their shoes when you're in the midst of having some need to connect a particular way with maybe hearing a certain line from them or something and you get the exact opposite. You get the exact opposite. And it just means, we're two different people in two different places, two different kinds of mornings. Of course.

Kristy (20:21)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (20:30)
Of it makes sense.

Kristy (20:31)
But I think, I guess I'm thinking more long term, like when we said if they're in there for a few days or, you know, it's like, it's not just the moment. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry (20:37)
Yes Yeah, that's what heather asked about you know ones when you get stuck in it and getting get, you know, let's talk about getting stuck In it like my first question would be well, what is the reward? What what prize do you get for being stuck in it? You know like it's manifestly Destined to not work because you're going to have to resolve it and come out of it somehow

You're either gonna wait for it all to be forgotten, which means it'll just recur, or you'll talk about stuff in a way that you probably could have talked about stuff much sooner. The problem is that someone has to make the first move and I'll be damned if I'm gonna make the first move, right?

Kristy (21:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I think that's why I was saying it's important to ask what stories might they be telling themselves because maybe they're telling themselves that they're they're a disappointment and that they're not a good partner and they're never going to measure up and you probably don't really want them anyway. And like maybe it's not about how bad you are. It's about them. And if if we can try to ask them what you know what's going on with you, what

Jerry (21:52)
Yeah.

That's right.

Kristy (22:02)
what stories are you telling yourself, then we can try to meet them where they are and be curious.

Jerry (22:09)
So meet them in curiosity, safety, and the right timing. So that's the question for the couple to me is someone says, you know what, this is obviously going haywire, this communication right now. When could we carve out a little time and place in safety, no distractions, to try and do a better job with this? I don't think that place is blame.

I would welcome hearing that. And I think that's something I could say, even if I was upset. When could we do this even better? And if the person goes, why are you saying your labeling is not good enough because I'm expressing my feelings? No, I just wonder when we could really take another look at this, because this is kind of ended up circular with a lot of bad feeling. And I don't want to walk around with a lot of bad feeling for two or three days. I don't want to.

Kristy (22:48)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (23:07)
I think it's OK to talk about what you want for the outcome, which is I don't want to walk around in a crummy mood for two or three days. I'd love to have this out. I don't think it was an easy, effortless discussion. I think we're going to need to wrestle.

Kristy (23:11)
Yes, yes.

Yes, I love you. I want to be close to you. I don't want to waste these days not speaking to each other or fighting. I don't want to be shut out. I want to be close. I think that's really good. I do want to say this because unfortunately I've seen it quite a bit. If you've tried everything, if you've reached out lovingly, if you've done the steps we talked about, if you've

Jerry (23:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (23:52)
practiced abundance, if you've put yourself in their shoes, if you've texted them loving texts saying, let me know when you want to talk, I'm here for you. If you've told them your intention and they're still just being a jerk.

It might be time to leave for a while. Don't stay there and keep being treated terribly for a long period of time. That's not okay either. Yeah. And just say, look, I don't want to be around this. I've tried. I don't know what else to do, but I'm going to go wherever. I'm going to get a hotel for a night or I'm going to go see my parents or, but I can't.

Jerry (24:21)
I would agree with that. I would-

So.

Kristy (24:38)
continue to put myself in this situation if you're unwilling to treat me with respect.

Jerry (24:45)
And I think that has to be after you've made it as clear as possible that you don't want this to continue that you've used the us word, you know, that we, I'm hoping we can do a better version of this conversation. hoping we could get to a better place. Hope we could find a safe place to discuss this, find a different way to discuss this. I don't want to feel separated and apart from you. If you're still getting just angry blowback or something or.

Then you're right, but oftentimes people don't Do that wise adult? Invitation stuff and that's what I wrote, you know when I heard originally when I heard Heather's question the first question in my I kept thinking it was about What if you get stuck in your adaptive child? Because I do sometimes you know, and when I feel attacked I do and

Kristy (25:25)
Absolutely.

Jerry (25:44)
Biggest question, the first and foremost question is how do you even know you've gotten into your adaptive child? Well, it seems to be about 90 % of it. And I think we've talked about scanning your body with someplace in your body that feels different when you're either ready to fight, flee or fix. Something feels different.

Kristy (25:50)
That's a good question. What do you say?

Jerry (26:10)
So if you get good at this, can notice, yeah, my shoulders are really tight. My jaw is clenching. My breathing is shallow. People talk about in the boot camps, the pit of their stomach, you know, something's happening. So scanning your body is your responsibility. Your partner can't scan your body. You have to scan your body and take responsibility for understanding something's happening right now. What is happening?

For me, it's a recognition, fighting is happening. Fighting is happening. Same way it always happens. Same kind of conversation, same circular result that doesn't result in any sort of progress. And that means you're looking at, if you're scanning yourself in the moment and all you're coming up with is that I'm searching very hard to figure out what to say.

to hurt the other person or to fight back or defend myself, I'm in my adaptive child.

Kristy (27:21)
Yeah, I agree. I know I'm in my adaptive child when I'm either feeling like a victim or looking down my nose in judgment thinking I'm better than and I'm being critical and judgmental.

Jerry (27:40)
And I want to say a word of defense about fighting for a second. Fighting doesn't break people up, relationships up. I think relationships get broken up just as much, if not more, by people who try and make believe there's no disagreements between them, even though there really are significant disagreements that are building up and building up and building up, and they finally explode in nuclear fashion.

and it feels like all too much, maybe we're doomed. So I think it's much better to accept we're gonna have disagreements and we're gonna find good ways to talk about it and that's part of a good enough good relationship that we have is gonna last forever.

Kristy (28:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and not it's so true not catastrophizing it and making it more than it is like, okay, we had a disagreement now how can we repair this?

Jerry (28:37)
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I have a tendency to catastrophize disagreements. And if you can hear like a soundtrack kicking in with like orchestral music, you know, of a really major nature or something, you're probably overplaying the nature of this disagreement. It's not like the end of the world. I also wanted to mention rabbit holes. Rabbit holes to me are a place you can.

to or sink into without even consciously being aware of it. It just feels so familiar. It is an escape. It's a way of detaching. It's a way of removing yourself of fleeing. But it doesn't even feel like that. It just feels like gravity. It feels like gravity pulling you down. And I know for me, when I go into that sort of place, it's pretty hard to get me out, you know?

And it's not easy for my partner to deal with me then, because like, now what? We're not even arguing anymore. He's gone into a really bad place.

Kristy (29:46)
Yeah. How do you get yourself out?

Jerry (29:52)
I think I recognize that this is a no progress can come from me remaining in it. I have some empathy for myself. Like I understand why I go there and I can try and put my arms around me and say, it's okay, kid, you know, like I understand how you'd end up here. But in fact, you were adding two plus two and getting nine.

because the person who's arguing with you is not what you've put together in your head. You've added up all the bad experiences of your life and you're loading it into one moment and getting really sad about it. And that's not really fair. What about just wrestling it out with your partner about some sort of issue? That's what I saying, like fighting is fighting or wrestling, I call it, is normative. It's like,

Kristy (30:32)
Yeah.

Jerry (30:52)
a good thing, but do we?

Kristy (30:54)
No, that's true. I feel like I get stuck when I'm not sharing how I feel and I'm making up in my mind that if I share it will just make it worse. And so now I'm stuck in my own world, you know, and that's not true. Like I've made that up, but I haven't actually tried to share or given my partner the opportunity to respond because I already made up what he's going to say or do. And then I can just

go to a place of white bother. And that's not a good place.

Jerry (31:26)
Okay, so that's your place. And I go to a place of, obviously I'm not good at this stuff and who am I kidding? And I can't, I give up and everyone leave me alone. Kind of the lower left quadrant as you're going to the upper left quadrant. Yeah.

Kristy (31:29)
Sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, upper left or lower left. Why bother? Like, yeah.

Jerry (31:48)
Do you

Yeah.

I guess upper left would be why bother with this person, you know? Do you think we can do a role play about this and illustrate a different way to cut short what could be a two or three day silence?

Kristy (31:57)
Yeah, I can go to both. I'll definitely own both of those. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jerry (32:18)
All right.

Kristy (32:19)
Yeah, maybe we should just do a good role play because we already, the bad one already happened. It's been going on for days.

Jerry (32:24)
A good one. Okay, yeah, we know it.

Okay, so this would be how to resolve it. And this could have happened two days earlier.

Kristy (32:38)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (32:39)
What's a good hypothetical that would be something, you know, would logically lead to a fight?

should we? Go ahead.

Kristy (32:51)
You maybe like you felt disrespected by me somehow. And I didn't like pay attention to your feelings and I misunderstood and so you're feeling misunderstood and rejected and and I feel I mean obviously I feel misunderstood too because I was just trying to do this but somehow you've disappeared for days.

Jerry (33:16)
Okay. Okay.

Kristy (33:20)
Right? we're like, I'm.

Jerry (33:22)
Okay, I've got one in mind. How about you? You've invited two or three people over for some kind of hobby group or something and that it has to be done in the main room where the TV is, you know.

Kristy (33:26)
Okay, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Jerry (33:42)
And you you've worked to build this group over the past year and you rotate going to different people's houses or something, you know, this is your turn.

Kristy (33:52)
And you're, you got upset about it like a couple days ago? Okay.

Jerry (33:55)
yeah, yeah, yeah. So you want me to explain why I got upset? So I'll already be in my adaptive child as we join this argument in process, right? And then we're going to try and back down from it.

Kristy (34:12)
Okay, either that or the fight happened and you've been giving me the cold shoulder for two days. So now I'm trying to repair.

Jerry (34:16)
Okay, so... Alright.

All right, well, let's just give the how it how it we won't illustrate the negative parts, but we'll say what happened was that from my point of view, Christie asked three people over to do some, I don't know, was it quilting or weaving or whatever, something that had to be in the main room where the big TV is. And I had really planned on doing my annual rewatch.

of The Godfather Part II, the best movie ever made with my friend Kevin. And we hadn't talked about our schedules, but that was the day I was inviting him over for. But the next thing I knew turned around and your event was happening and that we hadn't communicated about it. And I've just withdrawn from the argument because of course,

your view is going to prevail. And I've sort of removed myself and gotten all attitudinal and saying, you know, I'm going to just watch it, Kevin's house, and maybe it'll be a very late night or something like that. And then I did. And I took myself out and didn't come home until two in the morning and have had an attitude since.

Kristy (35:42)
Okay. Okay. So, I've been suffering with this distance, knowing that you're punishing me with your coldness and your silence. And I've been upset and then I've taken time to do what we've talked about and gotten centered and tried to put myself in your shoes. So now I'm going to come approach you.

Jerry (36:00)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Kristy (36:13)
Okay.

is, hey, Jerry, I'd really like to talk briefly. I know things have been difficult the last few days. It's now a good time.

Jerry (36:29)
They have, yeah, yeah. It's been horrible.

Kristy (36:34)
Yeah, well first I just, I wanted you to know that I took some time and put myself in your shoes. And I can imagine that you feel like I always get my way and that I don't, I kind of plan things without checking with you. And if there's a miscommunication, I just assume that you'll go with the flow and sort of let me have my way.

I didn't really think of it that way until I took some time, but is that how it feels? Does it feel like I kind of run the house?

Jerry (37:11)
Yeah, that I appreciate that because first of all, I appreciate you trying to put yourself in my position because I do try to roll with things. I do try to make it that your home is your place, you know, to relax and have even have friends over. And I did feel like disregarded.

I did feel like it was an automatic kind of gimme that you got the place and I would have to either change my date with Kevin or do it elsewhere. So I didn't feel like the house was really mine. I just felt like I worked to help pay for this house and so you can change plans on me whenever you want. It just felt.

Felt invisible, I felt invisible. Can you understand that, seeing it that way, even though that wasn't your intention? I don't, I can't believe it was really your intention.

Kristy (38:21)
Yeah, no.

No, no, I can I can totally see that I made a lot of assumptions like that that it wouldn't be a big deal that you'd be fine with it. Like I didn't I didn't take the time to respect that it's your house too. And maybe you didn't want that to be happening or it wouldn't work for you. And I definitely I totally should have should have checked in with you before I planned anything. And I.

Jerry (38:43)
Yeah.

think it would have helped, you know.

Kristy (38:53)
Yeah, I don't want you to think that I feel that way. And I know that sometimes I act that way. So I need to work on that.

Jerry (39:04)
Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you. I think I go to a pretty crummy place, which I'm not excusing the days of coldness or silence, but I get pretty depressed thinking like, obviously I don't know how to be a good host to Kevin, or I never really developed friendships enough, or I don't know how to be a good friend at my age. And it just starts seeming kind of lame and goofy and, and

Kristy (39:04)
and I'm sorry.

Jerry (39:34)
Why bother? get down in a way that I can't easily be lifted up out of. I go to my place and that place at its worst tells me that if I just shut up and keep the money flowing or something, things are good. But if I have any needs of my own that I speak about, that is not good. It's depressed. It's a depressed place.

I'm not really feeling that way right now. I just wish I missed talking to you for those days. I didn't take any pleasure in that, but I just didn't know how to approach you because you've, you you get you wall off too. And I think.

Kristy (40:19)
Yeah, I mean, I feel it when you're in that place, it feels really lonely. But I don't think I appreciate how intimidating I can seem when I'm hurt and walled off. So I can see how I would be hard to approach also.

Jerry (40:37)
Yeah, well, thank goodness you're not that way all the time. And I don't think I'm depressed all the time. You know, these are like just kind of distortions of our best selves, right? Thank you. We could do better.

Kristy (40:49)
right?

Yeah, thank you. Okay, that's over. Now I just wanted to say, I meant to say this, I'm glad it came up. Maybe if your partner's in their adaptive child for a long time, it could be that they have a mental illness to be addressed like depression. And it can look like an adaptive child. So I'm glad you brought that up, because that is also something to think about. Like, are you depressed?

Jerry (40:56)
It's open.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's a difference between going to a depressive place and a rabbit hole versus waking up in the morning. Why bother? Life is terrible. Depression. Yeah. Let's look at what the key turning points in that were. There were several points where you just acknowledged some self-knowledge of how you get. And I think this is

Kristy (41:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (41:48)
Pivotal that it's our job to know how we get at our worst This is the kind of thing we try and teach in the boot camp. How bad do you get? I Think people are always surprised wait, we're focus on that and this I thought we're gonna focus on him, you know, no

Kristy (42:05)
Yeah. Well, I have to say it's incredibly healing when your partner says something about themselves that they've recognized. It's like, my gosh, they see it. They get it. I don't have to tell them, you know, like, okay. And then you can relax because you know, they're working on it.

Jerry (42:23)
Yeah, when you said, you know, I get walled off or one up or, know, but I forget the words exactly. You said cold or frozen or something. Intimidating. Yikes. That means I don't have to argue and yell going, well, you're walled off and intimidating. You know, I don't have to because, know, you know, you get that way and that's not you at your best self. mean, all this.

Kristy (42:34)
intimidating.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry (42:51)
The takeaway from all this is how can I challenge myself to be the best version of myself every day, even when that person's pissing me off and disagreeing with me? Because it's easy when they're saying, yes, yes, yes, that sounds wonderful.

Kristy (43:09)
Yep.

Yeah, it is. It's being honest and accountable and showing up as your wise adult and it makes it much easier for your partner.

Jerry (43:24)
So how long is too long for people to take as a break from an argument? How long is becoming a frosty, passive aggressive jab versus I need space to myself?

Kristy (43:44)
I mean, I think more than a few hours, but if we have to stretch it, mean, the longest is 24. I think that's too long.

Jerry (43:47)
Yeah, I would say that too.

Yeah. I agree. I agree. I think that you're going to still have to do the heavy lifting of bringing the best version of yourself back to your partner. Why not do it after a couple of hours? Try and say some stuff to indicate, you know, that you weren't easy to deal with, you know, and that's, that's an advanced class skill to say, I understand. I, I get a certain way that

I'm not so easy to deal with. That's exactly what you were just doing. And in me acknowledging the depressive place that I go, that it's almost impossible to reach me down there, that's the same kind of thing. But I didn't wait for you to point that out, because if you did, I would have fought.

Kristy (44:25)
Yeah.

Yes.

Right, right. It's so different if you convict yourself.

Jerry (44:47)
This goes back to that podcast we did about don't be your partner's therapist. know, like don't weaponize these understandings and say, well, you go to a lower left position on the quadrant. It was like, you know, like just, I don't want to hear that. Even if there's, yeah, you can speak. You can analyze yourself all you want.

Kristy (44:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, make it about yourself.

Because if you're convicting yourself, you're being humble and you're getting out of your ego, which helps you reach towards your partner.

Jerry (45:19)
Yeah, I mean, has your partner really asked, could you please analyze me and put me in a quadrant frame and, you know, and relate this to my family of origin? They probably have not.

Kristy (45:26)
Yeah

Right, right.

Jerry (45:34)
Well, good job. I look forward to working with a whole crowd of new people in Massachusetts in less than two weeks now? Two weeks from tomorrow. Yeah. And excellent. All right. So we'll see you next time, Kristy. Good job.

Kristy (45:37)
Yeah, thank you.

I think exactly two weeks from tomorrow. Yeah, it'll be beautiful.

Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Take care.