Bron and Danielle dive into animal assisted therapy! Danielle tells us how animals, especially dogs, can be integrated into therapy to support psychological treatment. Danielle shares her journey into animal assisted therapy, the science behind it, and its benefits for both children and adults, especially those with trauma histories. We also cover practical aspects of implementing animal assisted therapy, training requirements, and the importance of self-care in the profession.
Guest: Danielle Graber, Clinical Psychologist, Director of 12 Points Psychology and Animal-Assisted Therapist
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[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. In today's episode of Mental Work, we are diving into the freaking awesome topic of animal assisted therapy.
I'm really, really excited about this topic. I know that I say that about all the episodes, but I'm in particular very excited about this because I love animals. I love doggos. I love everything about them. And I think it's a really great area of practice that we could all learn from.
So we'll explore how our furry friends can help support the therapeutic work that we do and discuss also, because our guest today runs a lot of professional development workshops and provides a lot of professional development educational courses, what are these? Sought after areas of growth for psychologists.
Listen in, and I hope that it's a really good conversation for you. And we've got heaps of practical tips coming your way. So here to help us out with the topic is our guest, Danielle Graber. Could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?
[00:01:10] Danielle: So I am, yes, Danielle Graber, and I am a clinical psychologist, have been for the last 15 or so years. In terms of non psychology passions, it's, well, I'm a, I'm a late identified ADHDer, so I now understand why I've had just so many different passions over the years. Uh, at the moment it's resin pouring. I'm very much into that and enjoying that.
Uh, I suppose my two, uh, my most consistent passions over the years have been animals and working with with animals, uh, in various guises, uh, and movies. I love, I love movies, I love movie trivia, I love, I'm really enjoying sort of that, that, that cinematherapy dive into movies and using them to explain complex topics and things like that.
So, uh, a lot of my interests do sort of overlap a little bit with psychology in the end, but, uh, but yes, those are my... the constants tend to be working with animals and movies.
[00:02:13] Bronwyn: Amazing. And maybe we can get this question out the way early. What's the best animal in your opinion?
[00:02:22] Danielle: Oh, that is really tricky. I probably, in terms of the best sync, so the, sort of the, the the quality of the relationship that you can have between a human and a dog is pretty amazing. You know, we've, we've been, we've been co evolving for, for, for 20-, 30 000 years together. We, we've literally evolved mechanisms to read each other better. And, and so I think in terms of the relationship that you can have with a dog, that's pretty hard to beat.
But Oh no, there's just so many amazing creatures out there and I'm reading a book at the moment called The Amazing Truth About Animals and it's talking about some animals that, you know, in the past have been a little maligned like sloths and snapping turtles and things like that and talking about some of the things that make them quite exceptional and now I'm slightly obsessed with a whole bunch of very strange and random animals and it's, I just think they all have something so amazing and so different to offer. In terms of relationships with humans, yeah, yeah, the, the dogs and the humans, we, uh, we fit quite nicely together.
[00:03:33] Bronwyn: Amazing. And so let's talk about animal assisted therapy because your group practice focuses on animal assisted therapy, is that right?
[00:03:41] Danielle: Yes, that's correct.
[00:03:42] Bronwyn: And how did you get into the area?
[00:03:46] Danielle: Well, uh, again, always been obsessed with animals. Uh, I, I volunteered at animal shelters long before I was able to have my own pets and had spent a lot of time with a, you know, I think one of the, the, most protective relationships in my life was with a pet when I was a child and I had a very instinctual understanding of the importance of the human animal bond and what that could mean and what that could do. You know, we've, we've since learned that in terms of things like ACEs where people have these, um, high numbers of adverse child events, that the, the one of the protective factors is the presence of at least one caring and attuned adult human or a pet that they have a close bond with.
And so I'd sort of always known that was, The case, and that was important, but it wasn't until we got our first dog, Rory, and she was just so curious about humans, so interested in them. She, if we went to the dog park, she would go up and introduce herself to all the humans and ignore all of the other dogs. She just loved being around people, uh, to the point that the vet said, she needs to be a therapy dog or something. Like it would just be cruel if we, if she didn't get a chance to work with humans.
And so I looked into, uh, animal assisted therapy at the time. This was 12 years ago now. At the time, I didn't even realize it was a separate field. Uh, it was still very early days, especially here in Australia. Uh, and then I realized that yes, it's, not only is it a thing, but it's something that aligns very closely with how I like to practice anyway in terms of attachment based work and, um, the importance of the relationship in the, in the therapy space and that kind of thing.
So, uh, I, I, I looked around, I did some research and realized that also one of the premier animal assisted therapy courses in the country is in Melbourne, which was very handy because that's where I was. And so we, we started training and I have literally never looked back. I'm glad that you said it's freaking awesome because it freaking awesome is, is right. It's just an amazing modality. It's an amazing field and I could never go back to not being an AAT.
[00:06:11] Bronwyn: Wow, that's so amazing. So it really just developed from your own interests, your own personal experiences, seeing how beneficial animals are. But then you discover this whole new world and actually it's a big thing and, and animals are very helpful therapeutically.
[00:06:24] Danielle: Yeah, and there's scientific evidence backing up the fact that this is, this is how they're doing what they do. And the things that I think a lot of people, if any of you have had, you know, a special bond with a, with a special pet in your life, then you know how, how enriching that relationship can be. And seeing that translate into the therapeutic space has just been incredible.
I think some of the most, um, significant and beautiful moments I've had in therapy have been, if not directly, indirectly influenced by the addition of the animals, and not just the dogs. So we, uh, we also had a bearded dragon who was working with us for, um, he was with us for about six years until unfortunately he passed away.
Uh, we have, uh, an axolotl, we have multiple fish tanks, uh, and we even have a sometimes therapy cat, uh, and obviously with animal assisted therapy, well maybe not obviously, if you're, if you're not aware, it's not just bring your dog to work day. It can be absolutely with dogs and they're probably, again, especially in Australia, the most common um, animal assisted therapy animal that we see. But you, there's a place in Queensland that does AAT with llamas. There's places that do, there's places that do sort of farm based AAT with horses and goats and there's equine therapy. There's, uh, yeah, there's, there's a lot of places are starting to work with reptiles. There's a lot of different options.
[00:07:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, well maybe let's talk about that because maybe a misconception that people have about animal assisted therapy is that the difference is, is the psychologist has their dog sitting in the room with them and then that's the animal assisted therapy. So maybe you could tell us, like, how does it differ from traditional therapeutic methods and is it just having the dog go there?
[00:08:18] Danielle: No, that can be a part of it, but if we're, if we're talking about, uh, I suppose when, what you're talking about there, if you've just bringing your dog to work and they're just sitting in the room, that would be considered an animal assisted activity. Uh, that, similar to something like, uh, if you do a little bit of training with your dog and you take them to visit patients in a nursing home or something like that in an aged care facility, uh, the dog is not an active part of the treatment plan.
In animal assisted therapy, the, the handler has to be an allied health professional or a medical professional and they have to be, the, the, the dog or the animal has to be an integral part of the treatment plan. Usually that involves, I think it should involve, some specialized training on things like how to incorporate the animal into your sessions, and particularly, Training that emphasizes the relationship between you and the therapy animal, you know, understanding their stress signs, understanding when they're enthusiastically consenting to work versus when they're like, eh, I'm not feeling it today. Um, and, you know, so that they trust you as well, that you have their back in whatever situation you might be, be walking into.
So I suppose it starts at intake. We ask all of our clients, our potential clients, Are you okay with dogs? Do you have any allergies? Because there will be dogs on the premises. Are you okay with that? It's in our consent form that dogs may be present in sessions. We've got a section on sort of zoonoses and the, you know, potential pros and cons of working with, with a therapy dog. Obviously, as well trained and well behaved as they are, they are still dogs. You know, they, they may jump up on you at some point or, um, you know, they, they, they might, um, you know, get a little over enthusiastic with their licking or something like that, you know. Uh, it happens. So, being okay with, with that.
And before the first session, the client comes in and we say, would you like to have the animals present in session? We go over a few ground rules. Uh, for example, with, if I'm working with, with kids, we'll talk about where the dogs like to be patted, where they don't like to be touched. Um, what it means, the dogs have a, a place, uh, under the desk that they can go, and that's their kind of, that's their quiet place. So, if the dog goes to this spot, then we leave them alone, because they're letting us know that they just need a little bit of a break.
Uh, and If everyone's good to go, then the dogs come into the room. We do introductions depending on the client and why we're doing the sessions in the first place. We might, it might just be introductions and talking a little bit like, this is Rory. She really likes the colour purple. She will try and lick you in the face if she does that, with what you do, uh, and, and sort of, yeah, use it as, as part of the icebreaker in a first session. Get them talking and interacting with the animal. It might be a bit more directive, so it might be, uh, would you like to see what Rory can do? And, you know, we might run through some tricks or something like that.
[00:11:33] Bronwyn: So do you feel like Animal Assisted Therapy, it sounds like it could be helpful for kids who are maybe apprehensive or unsure about therapy, have you ever noticed that's also true of adults?
[00:11:43] Danielle: Goodness, yeah.
[00:11:45] Bronwyn: Okay.
[00:11:45] Danielle: my god, yes, yes. I have had many people say to me, so I've been practicing as a psychologist for 16 years, four of those without animals and 12 with animals, and... which is slightly insane when I think about it, but um, yes, the number of times I've lost count, the number of times people have said, I really didn't want to come today, but I really wanted to see the dogs.
[00:12:12] Bronwyn: Mm, wow, that's so interesting.
[00:12:15] Danielle: Thank you very much.
[00:12:17] Bronwyn: Let, yeah, it's like, I didn't come to see you. I came to see the dog. Okay.
[00:12:21] Danielle: That's fine. It's fine. It gets them in the door. I don't
[00:12:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. So let's just go through like a hypothetical case study here, because I think this will help us kind of narrow down, um, the benefits of animals. So let me just read this out. So we've got, Emily, she's an early career psychologist. She was really nervous about her new client, Amy, who's a nine year old girl, who had endured significant abuse from her stepfather, who's now in jail. Amy struggled with nightmares, flashbacks, mood dysregulation, and had never stayed with a therapist for more than one or two sessions. She agreed to see Emily only because of Rory, the Therapy Dog.
In the first session, Amy didn't speak much to Emily, but she enjoyed interacting with Rory, especially during the trick training. As she left, Amy said, can I come see Rory again? Later, Amy shared that she felt safe with Rory, which helped shift the focus away from her trauma. So watching Emily's kind interactions with Rory helped Amy trust her, making it easier for her to return.
So is this, is this kind of like, uh, what am I trying to say? Emblematic, I guess, like. Exemplomatic, that word of, of, of, I guess, typical of what you might say.
[00:13:32] Danielle: It's very typical. It's very, very typical. And that, you know, that, that vignette is, is changed a little bit, but it, it's quite close to an early experience that Rory and I did have.
[00:13:43] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:13:45] Danielle: That I've just seen repeated time and time and time and time and time again, um, partly because I do a lot of work in the trauma space, um, with kids and with adults. And obviously, those people who have experienced significant trauma, they have issues trusting people. And one, we know that even by virtue of having a picture of me on the website with one of the dogs, that instills greater trust, just, just from that, just from looking at the picture on the web, they're more likely to book in and feel comfortable booking in with me because I have, I have an animal in the, in the picture with me.
Um, but that client, she was able to articulate very, very succinctly and very well that, um, that was the difference. Um, and it allowed her not to be the focus of attention and she felt like she could just take her time. She could just have this fun and positive interaction. And over time, she also realized that, you know, she could see as well, particularly with trick training, trick training is a fantastic intervention in, in AAT because the, the, the child and adult, sometimes gets to see that making a mistake is part of learning.
You know, we see a lot of kids with fairly high perfectionistic tendencies and that kind of thing. So they see that you literally, you have to make a mistake in order to learn something sometimes that it's just a very natural, normal part of the learning process. Uh, but they also see that a mistake doesn't have to signal the end of a relationship. It doesn't have to invoke, you know, anger, uh, that if, if one of the dogs makes a mistake, I don't love them any less.
And I can say that all I like in a session, but actually getting to witness that in vivo, if you like, is, is a very, very different experience. And for those, particularly that, you know, sort of complex trauma background... it's, it's, that's the kind of thing that really does help them start to feel that maybe I can trust this person because the dog trusts them. And, and I see how they are with, um, with the dog and, or the lizard or the whoever. And it's, yeah, it's, it's quite, um, it's very powerful. It's very, very powerful.
[00:16:05] Bronwyn: I agree. And I was going to bring that up about the trust as well, because when I think of somebody with a photo and them with a dog, my association is that person must be trustworthy because they're caring for an animal. And I don't, I don't know why I have that association, but I'm like, oh, they must be lovely. They must be able to see an animal when they're scared or, or they're in need and be able to comfort them and they must be gentle. And so I carry all of those associations, maybe inaccurately, I don't know. Um, but you know, like it works.
[00:16:34] Danielle: No, and we do. I mean, that, that is and we do carry those assumptions and that's why it-
[00:16:40] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Danielle: -works is because most people, and it's funny, uh, that, that, uh, and a lot of AATs talk about that, that you will trust, we'll trust our dog implicitly if they don't like someone, um, but if someone doesn't like our dog, we're like, we're a bit, we're a bit shady on you.
We're not sure about you now. Like,
[00:17:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's a bit of a vibe check, isn't it?
[00:17:03] Danielle: Yeah, why would you not like that? Yeah. So, um, it, it's, and that, oh yeah, that all by itself can be incredibly useful information. You know, the, the client comes in and they know, especially now, they're coming to an animal assisted therapy place. They know I'm an animal assisted therapist. They've gone through the consent form. They've, had the, you know, uh, I've been asked the questions on the phone and oftentimes we'll get someone coming in saying, yes, that's fine. And I'm great with dogs. Uh, and then they come in and it's quite obvious that they're really uncomfortable with the dog. Or, you know, a teenage client once said to me. I think it was Jersey was one of the other therapy dogs, was sort of sidling up to her for a cuddle, and the teenager sort of pulled back and was like, what does she want?
[00:17:51] Bronwyn: Oh, yeah.
[00:17:53] Danielle: Such good information.
[00:17:54] Bronwyn: Great.
[00:17:55] Danielle: Such good information.
[00:17:56] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:17:57] Danielle: So you get to unlock things that you wouldn't necessarily see, especially early on, and you get to see how that person responds to or even a more of a negative experience, you know, we, we had, we had someone once who the, the, the, the therapy dog started coughing in the session and the, the therapist quite naturally and rightly went to check that the dog was okay. And the client experienced that as sort of rejection and you're not interested and you're only interested in your dog.
[00:18:30] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:18:32] Danielle: So, but still gold in terms of working and, uh, and yeah, such important information. So...
[00:18:41] Bronwyn: Which you wouldn't have got maybe if you were asking them, like, tell me about your interactions with other people and they may report something different, whereas in real time you're seeing that.
[00:18:49] Danielle: Yes.
[00:18:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's wonderful. So what advice would you give to early career psychologists who are interested in animal assisted therapy? Because I think a lot of early career psychs.... um, I think they would, I think they're scared about going outside the traditional one to one. And I think, you know, in the early stages of their career, they're just thinking, how can I avoid AHPRA? Like, how can I just stick within the, the strict straight mold, you know? So what advice would you give to them?
[00:19:20] Danielle: Yeah, that's completely fair. And something that, that, a. There's an element of, I suppose there's an element of truth in that when you're starting out, it's that, it's that rock climbing analogy. Have you, have you come across that?
[00:19:38] Bronwyn: No, I haven't.
[00:19:40] Danielle: So, you know, when you're learning, when you're first learning to rock climb, because guess what was another interest at one point? When you're first learning to rock climb, you need to know this knot called, and how do I tie this, and how do I grip the rock, and how do I do this with my toes, and you know, you need to be concentrating on all of these, you know, quite small details in order to do it right and to do it safely.
And that's not the point necessarily where you want to introduce a therapy dog because a therapy dog or a therapy animal, you do need to be able to split your focus a little bit more. And that doesn't generally, I mean, you can do it, you can absolutely do it, but it's going to be, quite hard and quite draining. Uh, I think get comfortable in those basic skills, you know, figure out what color rocks you're comfortable hanging on to, uh, get that muscle memory in terms of this is how I grip, this is how I push, this is how I do this part, and get to the point where you can start to enjoy it, where you can start to feel a little of that automatic learning coming in of like, oh no wait, I, yeah, I've got this. This is, yeah, I can, I can now start to sort of enjoy the motion itself, and I can actually start to maybe, you know, even enjoy the view. Once you're at that point, then that's, that's when you can add in the therapy dog.
Because in some ways, it does take you back to, to the beginning. You've got to, you know, from the start, you've suddenly got to worry about, you know, your dog, your relationship with the dog, the dog and your client, the client's relationship with the dog, the client's relationship with you. It does bring more into the room to pay attention to.
[00:21:17] Bronwyn: That's a lot to keep track of.
[00:21:19] Danielle: It's a lot to keep track of, and you don't necessarily You don't necessarily realize it at first. Uh, so I would say don't feel like you've got to be upskilling. I mean, this holds for any, any modality that you're interested in. Don't feel like you've got to be upskilling in 20 different areas all at once and have all of the tools at your disposal straight away. Uh, I think early career, you really want to focus on the being rather than the doing and, AAT is a brilliant way to do that because it really, like, you have to be present. AAT sessions never go entirely to plan. You know, you're, you're introducing animals into the mix and animals with kids in particular, you never know what's going to happen exactly.
So it, it, it definitely keeps you focused on that being rather than doing, but I do think getting your basic skill set up beforehand is really useful. And then join my Facebook group, which is all about AAT, and hear from people who are at different stages. So those who are just starting out, those who are thinking about it, to those who've been practicing for a long time. Uh, and Definitely look at some good training options.
[00:22:33] Bronwyn: What training would you recommend?
[00:22:36] Danielle: I always recommend Lead the Way. So, Lead the Way is in, um, Baronia and Ferntree Gully in Melbourne. They do online options as well. They do online training, um, plus online certification, and it was developed by someone who is a psychologist and a dog trainer. And that combination, I think, is really important because not only does she teach you how to, uh, or do they teach you how to look after your dog and make sure that your dog is healthy and fit and into the work, but can also speak the language. With a lot of knowledge around how to incorporate the animal into your practice. Uh, and, and yeah, to do so in, you know, in, in a, in a very ethical and meaningful way.
[00:23:21] Bronwyn: Totally. What advice would you give to early career psychologists who just want to have, I can't remember the term you used before, but it was like animal, just being there.
[00:23:31] Danielle: Animal assisted activity. Look, I still think, I still think the training aspect is really important there. Just not. To the same extent, you know, you don't have to do quite as much training. So, you know, foundation training for a therapy dog where you're going to actively be working with the dog in session is minimum sort of six days, uh, theory, practice, workplace demonstrations, all of this kind of thing. And then you've got to recertify every two years and there's ongoing masterclasses and things like that, like any other sort of, um, I suppose, modality that you, that you do extra training in.
But if you're going to do, so for example, we had one of our admin people who had this beautiful golden retriever who was just absolute sweetheart, loved people, and we decided that she would make a very good waiting room dog. And so she was literally just there to hang out in the waiting room, to give people pats if they wanted to, uh, just, just be a... just, yeah, she was, she was good comfort, she was, she was beautiful.
So we, uh, we sent, we sent her and, and her, uh, and her, and her mum off to do just a three day intensive, uh, dog training course with, with Lead the Way as well, that's focused just on building that relationship between you and your dog. Because the most important thing is that you guys can read each other, and you guys can trust each other.
[00:25:01] Bronwyn: Mm.
[00:25:02] Danielle: Because even in a waiting room setting or a nursing home setting, or if you just want to have the dog, you know, come in and sit in the room with you, you want to know that you can read if that dog is stressed. You want to know if you can read that that dog is enjoying themselves. And you want to be able to manage things like toileting and, uh, and making sure that, you know, the, the, the, the dog and the client are, are both getting something out of that interaction as well.
[00:25:31] Bronwyn: As always, I love chatting about these things because it's deceptive on the outside it's deceptively simple. It's like you have Doggo in session, Doggo is happy. Everything's great. Everyone's loving each other and it's a fairy tale. And then when you actually discuss it, you're like, crap, it is more complicated.
And so when you're talking about the rock climbing analogy, I'm like, oh yeah, like transported back to my early days of being a provisional psychologist. And unexpected stuff happening in session just between me and a client. I was like, how the hell do I handle this? Like, oh, now they're breaking down crying. How do I handle that? You know, like somebody else has come into our session. What's this about? It's like, you don't know how to handle these unexpected things just with a, with another person in the room. Um, so yeah, it'd be hard to manage that and the dog.
[00:26:15] Danielle: Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And. And just because your dog loves you and loves hanging out with you doesn't mean they're going to love every person they meet.
[00:26:23] Bronwyn: Yes, that's so true. Yeah. My favorite dog, who I love deeply, um, they have a very traumatic history. They're an RSPCA rescue. And so like, as soon as they see me, we're like best buds, but everybody else is like, they're just like the spawn of Satan kind of thing. Yeah.
[00:26:41] Danielle: That, that happens. There are definitely dogs out there and it's really quite distressing. Sometimes, you know, I see people posting videos and, and, and, or pictures of their dogs going like, oh, isn't this cute though? You know, they let the baby climb all over them and all the rest of it. And that dog very clearly is stressed out of its head. And that's when things go bad.
So, um, um, even in terms of you know, doing the, the, the, the basic training to get an idea of what does your dog do when they're stressed. So dogs tend to, either, you know, very, very simplistically, but they tend to be kind of fight, flight or freezers. You want to know which one your dog is before you put them into an unknown situation.
[00:27:27] Bronwyn: That makes perfect sense.
Danielle, is there anything else that. You want to tell us about Animal Assisted Therapy that we haven't talked about?
[00:27:34] Danielle: Did I mention it's freaking awesome?
[00:27:36] Bronwyn: Yes you did. Yeah, but like, that's okay to mention it again. I think it's amazing. But like, now that you've gone into the complexities of it, I'm a bit like, okay, I need to think about this further. Um, because I love animals and I have thought about getting into Animal Assisted Therapy, but it sounds like, look, you need to do the training. You need to understand your dog. You need to understand each other. You need to be prepared to handle situations in sessions and the training is very important.
[00:27:59] Danielle: I suppose that's the other thing then. Yeah, that is, that is a really important point that, uh, you want to make sure as well, cause there's no guarantees, you know, uh, all of our dogs are rescues and you don't know when you rescue a dog, I mean, one of them was rescued as a puppy, but you still don't know if that puppy or if that dog is going to get to the point where they want to do this work.
So you have to be very sure that if you're getting a dog, for example, with the idea in mind that this will become a therapy dog, they might not like it, they might not want to do it, so you have to first be completely okay with, if I get this pet, they are a pet first, and they might be suitable for AAT, but if they're not, that's totally fine, and I'm going to love them and care for them anyway.
[00:28:51] Bronwyn: that makes sense to me. I've spoken with a few folks who, uh, trained goldens, uh, to be, um, assistive animals. And they've said to me like, this golden just didn't, they didn't like working. Um, and so they're my dog now, um, you know, that kind of thing.
[00:29:06] Danielle: Yeah. That is 100 percent the way to go. Uh, so as long as you're okay with, or even, um, or, or, or that they have to retire really early, you know, a friend of mine did the training, her dog loved it, it was fabulous. And then got into an accident and had some, some medical issues and never really wanted to get back into it. And she's only three. And, I know it was, yeah, it was very sad.
[00:29:33] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:29:34] Danielle: But if she had only wanted that dog as a therapy dog, that would get very awkward very quickly. Um, very difficult very quickly. And that wasn't the case. She's just like, no, I'm happy for her to just be my dog. Uh, and, and, and look after her that way.
So yeah, you, you can't tell, you know, you can... there's things you can look for, there's certain signs that indicate, yeah, with our rescues, we're always looking for a dog that, uh, even if they're terrified of humans, they're still showing an interest. They're still, you can see the parts of their brain fighting over, I want to check this person out, but I'm terrified something bad is going to happen. That you can work with, as opposed to a dog that's just like, I'm very happy to stay in a hallway and never move for the rest of my life. Um, I have no interest in people at all.
[00:30:27] Bronwyn: No, all very good advice, and that was really helpful to learn about that.
[00:30:32] Bronwyn: I'm wondering if we could turn to your professional development arm of what you do.
[00:30:37] Danielle: Yes, absolutely.
[00:30:38] Bronwyn: So, it's called the Therapeutic Tools of the Trade, is that right? Yep. And could you just tell us a bit about what it is?
[00:30:47] Danielle: Well, it's a little bit of a, it's almost a little bit of a misnomer now, but it started out five years ago, five years ago this month, actually.
[00:30:55] Bronwyn: Wow.
[00:30:55] Danielle: It's, it's out. Thank you very much. Uh, it started out as a Facebook group for my supervisees where I would have a session with a supervisee and, and they might, you know, have a request or a particular struggle that they're having. I would suggest a resource. And if they found it helpful, I would then, I used to just email it to everyone, but then I would... created the Facebook group, put it in there. And then that Facebook group just kept growing and the supervisees would invite their friends. And it's, yes. So what started out as a, as a group of like 20 people is now a thousand and something.
And I, it was focused very much... I used to do a weekly live stream where I would share a tool of some kind, either an existing resource and, and sort of revisiting some basics or new ways to use that existing resource or a brand new resource or a research article or something like that. And that then, evolved into running actual webinars, uh, on different topics. So I started out doing a lot in AAT, uh, and then people started asking, uh, interested in more information on this or that, uh, so we went to monthly webinars and group supervision and yeah, it's just sort of kept growing.
But what I realized over the course of doing that is that it's not actually about the tools. Again, early on, you need the tools, you know, you, and you feel like you need that full toolbox really early on. And you might look at your supervisors or something and go, Oh, how do they know that? And, and every time I ask them a question, they just know where that resource is, or they know what to refer to, or they've, you know. That's because they've had a lot of experience and they've built that toolbox over time. You're still building yours, that's fine. But the most important tool in your toolbox really is, you know, you,
[00:32:54] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:32:55] Danielle: The clinician. And I worry that for a lot of Newbies in particular, they focus so much on the doing and you know, I've got to be actively doing therapy, whatever that means. I've got to be making sure that I'm giving this client lots of resources and lots of homework and lots of things to do because otherwise I'm not doing my job.
And I think they forget... because, you know, our training doesn't really emphasize this as much, those natural skills that generally led them to therapy in the first place, the listening, the validating, the being able to be another human being in the room with someone in pain, uh, or distress, you know, those are the things that are actually, incredibly valuable because if you don't get that part right, all of the fancy tools in the world aren't going to do anything.
[00:33:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, you can have as many fancy tools as you want, but if the person doesn't feel heard, listened to and understood and like you're a safe person, then that won't matter.
[00:34:01] Danielle: Won't matter at all. So that's what I mean about AAT being a very, very good lesson in that because AAT forces you to, to, but just be sometimes, uh, and I think we have a tendency in this profession, you know, we know 75 to 80 percent of us, our primary schemas, you know, those, those, those negative core beliefs that we carry tend to be around people pleasing and perfectionism. And so we feel like we've always got to be delivering and we minimize those, those skills that come naturally to us.
[00:34:37] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I feel like that's, it's also minimized by the curriculum. It's like what I've had one counseling unit out of what, like 12 or 13 units. So it's like, it's totally emphasized within our curriculum that you need to be learning different therapies and doing different skills. And you need to be delivering two skills per session plus homework. And then you need to check in on that and all of that.
Yeah. I very rarely has the relational aspect being emphasized to me as an early career psychologist. Um, so yeah, totally relate to that. So do you find that maybe early career psychologists, that's the kind of stuff you're focusing on now in therapeutic tools of the trade?
[00:35:14] Danielle: Yeah, there's been a shift from, um, I suppose, well, my, My sense early on as well, same thing when I was early, it's like, but I need the tools, you know, I need, I need to know exactly how that rope is tied and then I need to know, uh, five different ways you can tie that same knot. Uh, but yeah, I gradually realized that that wasn't doing great things for our confidence as therapists and it was greatly minimizing our sense of achievement in, um, in being in the room with, with the client.
So the, the webinars now, there's still, we still got a monthly webinar. Group supervision now is focused very much on supporting the clinician's confidence and personal development, not just the professional clinical side of things. And the webinars are sort of shifting that way as well. So this year, for example, we've got a mix. We've still got. Very much talk about clinical skills, that's still obviously important, uh, and extending those skills as you develop and that kind of thing. But we've probably got half and half now. Half will be on professional development, and then the other half will be on something like, uh, next month I'll be talking about my, my SPARKS program, which is a customizable well being approach for therapists to combat some of those people pleasing, perfectionistic tendencies that we can have, uh, and, and really change that conversation about how we treat ourselves in order to treat our clients.
[00:36:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. I love that. I think it's so handy to know our own schemas and then how could that be activated in the therapy room and what could that activate in us and how might we respond to that? And I think that's super awesome.
[00:37:05] Danielle: Thank you. One- even the cost, this wasn't something that was ever discussed, certainly when I was training. That there's a cost in constantly trying to co regulate with all of these distressed people.
[00:37:18] Bronwyn: Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:20] Danielle: Yeah, we talk about vicarious trauma and all that kind of stuff, but I'm just talking like day to day. If you go from, you know, and you would have felt it if you end up in, in a day where you've got five, you know, super depressed clients, you feel pretty low by the end of the day. It's because we're generally naturally empathetic and that mirror neuron system starts going, oh, is this just how I'm supposed to be feeling now?
[00:37:43] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:37:44] Danielle: If you're in session and you are getting particularly activated by a client, schemas, you know, we'd get some schema chemistry happening there, uh, you might be perfectly appropriate and, and still deliver a really good session, but that's cost you more than a regular session where you weren't activated and trying to work against that. So, so thinking about just day to day, where that, where we're spending that energy, I think is, is something that's not really talked about as much as it should.
[00:38:15] Bronwyn: It's not. I've done a few episodes on the podcast where we've talked about emotional labor and there's been a bit of research around that and it's been fantastic. And just acknowledging that we do take on a lot of emotional labor and it really has an impact on us and how do we manage that, um, has been hugely beneficial for me personally, but I think it's been beneficial for other people to understand.
And so, yeah, I'm glad that, yeah, it's been interesting to hear you like, oh, originally I just did like a resource and now it's like focusing on a lot of practitioner well being and how can we stay healthy in this line of work?
[00:38:47] Danielle: And I think, I think AAT has been really useful there as well, because it's, Uh, when you do start doing animal assisted therapy, you realize that your therapy animal needs to build up their stamina as well. And a lot of people are just like, well, they're just, you know, they're sitting in session. And sometimes, uh, you know, if it is just a case that we're not actively working in the session, the, the, the dog might literally just be sleeping on the couch next to the client, getting pats, but sleeping on the couch at home, getting pats is very, very different to doing that at work. And I think being, um, the emotional labor, basically, that the dogs were going through helped me to understand, well, Jesus, like, if they're, like, if, if they're exhausted after four sessions and they didn't have to do the actual, you know, work bit as such, then no wonder I'm tired sometimes and maybe I should pay attention to that.
[00:39:40] Bronwyn: Uh, absolutely. And then of course, like, oh man, this could spark a whole nother conversation, but it's like early career psychs, they notice that and they're like, oh, there must be something wrong with me. Yeah. Guess I'm not cut out if I'm tired after spending 60, you know, like 360 minutes, like listening intently to someone else and managing their emotions.
[00:39:59] Danielle: Yeah, while all of that work is going on internally, you know, again, have I tried that not right? Have I grabbed the right hold? Or did I miss it? Yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot.
[00:40:08] Bronwyn: It's a lot.
[00:40:10] Danielle: Yeah, we need to acknowledge what we're already doing well, which generally if you've gone into this business is the listening and the validating part, uh, and that that is an achievement all by itself.
[00:40:21] Bronwyn: Mm. I completely agree. Mm. Well, I'm glad that, I'm glad that you're doing Therapeutic Tools of the Trade and maybe could you tell listeners where they can find out more about Therapeutic Tools of the Trade or about your practice or yourself and how they can get in touch?
[00:40:35] Danielle: Yes, probably the easiest way is just to go to the website, which is 12pointspsychology.com and that's one, two points, p o i n t s dot com.
[00:40:45] Bronwyn: Is that a Eurovision reference?
[00:40:48] Danielle: Yes. Yes. Awesome.
[00:40:52] Bronwyn: like, that's gotta be Eurovision. I don't think there's anything else that's 12 points.
[00:40:57] Danielle: Oh, that's so good. No, that's hilarious. So yes, you can, you can learn more about why our name comes from Eurovision. There's, there's a post on the, on the website about that.
[00:41:06] Bronwyn: I mean for me, you don't have to explain more because I love Eurovision so I'm like self explanatory really.
[00:41:11] Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. You'll just get it. Oh, that's so good. You are the first person in eight years who, who, who...
[00:41:18] Bronwyn: that's sad. Clearly people need to watch Eurovision more. That's what I'm hearing.
[00:41:21] Danielle: -don't know. I don't know. But yeah, so the website has, uh, well, there's three paws. So you'll see the, the green paw is for the clinic. So that's for the psychology clinic. The blue paw is for clinicians. So that's for training, professional development, therapeutic tools of the trade, all of that kind of thing is under there. And then there's a purple paw because we also, rent a space at the Bayswater location.
Um, so, uh, and then, you know, I'm on social media, Facebook and Instagram. And of course you can join the Therapeutic Tools of the Trade Facebook group, uh, where I still, I do, I still share resources. Um, but, uh, but yeah, the emphasis now is a bit more also on how are you doing?
[00:42:04] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:42:05] Danielle: Yes.
[00:42:06] Bronwyn: And usually I ask people, uh, what they'll take away from today's conversation, but because you're quite experienced, I just wanted to ask you, is there anything that you wish you knew when you were first starting out that you would like listeners to know?
[00:42:19] Danielle: Such a good question. There's a few things really, but I I, I wish, actually, I wish I'd had something like SPARKS. I don't mean that to sound self promotion -y, but I suppose...
[00:42:34] Bronwyn: Yeah.
[00:42:35] Danielle: But the way that self care was presented to me when I was training was, and it kind of left me with this, and I see this in lots and lots and lots and lots of other psychs, it left me with this idea of like I'd hear the term self care and I'd roll my eyes and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I have a massage once a month. That's my self care. That's fine. I didn't understand what it was actually about and how true holistic wellbeing can actually. Heal some of the issues that are creating the burnout in the first place, uh, and, and that, that the, our traditional self care approach is not helpful and so it's not your fault then if you burn out. You're not a bad therapist, not a bad person, uh, you are a very human person who's, you know, etch a sketch got a little too full.
[00:43:27] Bronwyn: Hmm. No, that's really lovely. And that's a good way of putting it and totally resonate with the, um, yeah, thinking that self care was a massage or like a bubble bath or something and being like, okay. And then becoming burnt out and being like, Oh, I need to take this shit seriously. And probably in a different way.
[00:43:41] Danielle: Yes, yes, that's a hard way to learn that lesson.
[00:43:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but I'm glad that, yeah, you've developed the 'sparks' and yeah, listeners can join the therapeutic tools of the trade group. And Danielle, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a real pleasure to learn from you about animal assisted therapy and to learn a bit more about your approach to professional development as well.
[00:44:03] Danielle: Thank you so much for having me. It was really lovely to talk to you and I think it's such an important area to sort of, you know, set up the next generation to avoid some of the mistakes maybe that we made.
[00:44:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, absolutely.
And listeners, I hope you got a lot out of today's episode. As always, if you enjoyed today's episode, do put it in somebody else's ears. It's the best way of getting the podcast out there and I'm sure they would love to hear it as well. And if you want to leave us a five star review, I would love you for that. Otherwise have a good one, take care and catch you next time. Bye.