Are your money beliefs holding you back? (with Marie Vakakis)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey mental workers, welcome back to the Mental Work Podcast. The podcast about working in mental health for mental health workers.

[00:00:11] I'm your host. Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about money. And we're talking about money mindsets. It's one of those topics that we rarely talk about, but we are interacting with money every day as mental health professionals, particularly as early career mental health professionals. We can feel overwhelmed by the concept of interacting with money.

[00:00:31] Today, we're going to be talking about how do we manage money? And what do we think about money? Is it helping us, or are our beliefs about money holding us back? We're going to unpack maybe some healthy. money mindset patterns and some unhelpful money mindset patterns.

[00:00:47] And hopefully you'll walk away with some practical tips for managing your relationship with money so that you can stress less and focus on your work of being a mental health professional without those beliefs holding you back.

[00:00:58] Here to help us out is our guest today, Marie Vakakis. Hi, Marie.

[00:01:02] Marie: Hello. Thanks for having me back.

[00:01:03] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you back as always. And since you are a regular guest, I would love for you to tell listeners what's something good that's been happening for you lately.

[00:01:14] Marie: Oh, um, I I'm training. Well, actually by the time this episode airs, I will have done my first triathlon.

[00:01:21] Bronwyn: Wow! Oh!

[00:01:22] Marie: Um, that's being very positive, isn't it? That I will have done it. It'll be great. Maybe even done a couple. Um, but it was the first thing I sort of tried to do that was like, I've never done anything like that before.

[00:01:34] Um, And, it might be really well linked to some of the things we're talking about of when you get an idea in your head of what you're capable of or not, or a fixed belief of like, I just can't do that. And they come from really random places. It could have been like when you were little, or in high school, or you might've sucked at gym class or something, and that sticks with you.

[00:01:54] And, um, so I just wanted to kind of push myself. I've heard stories of people overcoming like significant physical obstacles and starting from scratch again, thinking, oh, this is learnable, just like so much is teachable, this is learnable too, and fitness is, it can be built on, and I don't have to win it, I just want to participate in it.

[00:02:15] And so, yeah, that's um, that's something I've been chipping away at, trying to get in a swim, a run, a walk, which has also been really good for, you know, self care because now that the weather got a little bit better after winter and a bit of hibernation, I got to do a little bit more outdoor stuff. So, um, yeah, I think that's been a positive.

[00:02:33] Bronwyn: I'm really delighted for you. I think that's going to be awesome. I jumped into triathlons a few years ago, actually, and I don't do many, but my funny thing with triathlons is that with a triathlon, you do a swim, bike or run, or some of them allow you to skip the swim or skip the run. In any case, there's always a transition between activities and for me with triathlons, the transition, I'm usually the slowest person because I really love to be comfortable while doing a triathlon so I'll put on my little bike gloves and I'll make sure my socks are nice and I'll make sure I'm completely dried and I don't really mind because I'm just there to participate, like you said, and I'm having fun. And I kind of laugh at myself that I'm always the princess last and my partner's like, come on, hurry the fuck up. And I'm like, no way I'm going to be comfortable.

[00:03:19] Marie: Yeah, that might be me.

[00:03:23] Bronwyn: And this year, because I did the triathlon a few weeks ago, I was like, I'm going to be a big girl today and I'm not going to wear my bike gloves and I saved myself like 10 seconds, but I feel like I had regrets. Next year, I'm going to go back to bike gloves.

[00:03:37] Marie: Maybe we could, um, I can tell you about how it went after.

[00:03:40] Bronwyn: I would love to hear how it went afterwards. And yes, I look forward to you doing it. I think it's going to be great.

[00:03:45] Okay, so you were mentioning before that maybe some of our beliefs may hold us back and they've come from early life. And I think that's why we wanted to talk about money today.

[00:03:55] Marie: Yeah, I think, um, in, in so many of the different episodes, we've talked about various bits of being in private practice and, therapeutic, like your clinical skills is one very small component of that, which I think is really hard. I know, uh, I'm sure psychologists aren't alone in this and an accredited mental health social worker, you get to the point of either having your full registration or feeling like, okay, I kind of know what's happening in the room with the person, maybe, because I'm still working on that.

[00:04:22] And then if you go into private practice, there's a whole bunch of stuff that comes out of being a small business owner. And I think there are extra challenges and fears and worries that come up for folk who work in a healthcare setting that's for profit. And it can create a little bit of maybe moral injury or incongruence with values, in one way, and then also, it might be something you've never really thought about before, so you don't know how to navigate money, how to budget for it, how to manage expenses, that kind of thing.

[00:04:53] There's a whole learning curve there, and the mindset bit I think is really interesting and probably a bit more related to the psychology of it, because I'm not a finance person, I'm not a financial advisor, so understanding the money mindset I thought was a really big part of my learning, and it's constantly evolving.

[00:05:12] Bronwyn: Absolutely. I do feel like there's a lot of shame around talking about money and I'm curious about whether you feel the same in helping professions.

[00:05:21] Marie: I think there is, and I think our worst critics are other therapists, actually, when some people will be like, oh, I can't believe you charged that, or I think it's wrong if someone doesn't bulk bill, and like, people are very judgy, and it's like, you have no idea what someone else's circumstances are, and I, I really worry that we know, in general, that, the largest growing population of homelessness is, uh, adult women, and a lot of women work in these professions as well.

[00:05:48] So there's extra worry there of people taking time out of the workforce, maybe for child rearing or carer responsibilities, have lower super. And on top of that, if you're not paying yourself well, you're really not setting yourself up well to do good work. And I think if you are always stressed about money and you're worried about money, then you're not going to be doing good work because you're going to be scared every time there's a cancellation. You're going to be worried about paying the rent, the bills coming up, you're going to maybe avoid a particular supervision or training, or on the other side just do too much of that and then end up with nothing in the end.

[00:06:20] So the money you make, revenue is very different to profit and people need to understand that as well. Like you might need to make $300, 000 of revenue to take home a salary of $100, 000 when you factor in all these other expenses. So there are a lot more layers to that than people realize. And it's really important to value that work and to charge adequately for it and balance that with other things that you want to do for your community and health promotion and, you know, general well being. So I think it's hard.

[00:06:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, so what you're pointing out is that there's consequences if we don't take our money mindsets and how we approach money seriously. Like we may not earn enough money to help us be sustainable financially and that can cause us stress and that can impact our interactions with the people we serve.

[00:07:07] Marie: Yeah, absolutely. And we're not here, we don't do this work to take a vow of poverty and we don't do, you know, I know for social, it was a thousand hours of unpaid placement. I've got a significant HECS debt to earn less money than I would if I was working permanent part time in retail and got the Sunday sort of shift and got those penalty hours. Like it's really, it's really shouldn't, it shouldn't be that if you care, you don't get paid .

[00:07:32] Bronwyn: And so maybe this takes us to why it is so taboo, because the biggest thing that I'm hearing is like, when we sign up to these helping professions, maybe an underlying belief is that we're supposed to help and be selfless. So if we're thinking of money, maybe we are selfish. And if you go to a workplace and you are like, what's my salary going to be? They'll be like, how are you even thinking of that? Shouldn't you be thinking of the population you want to serve and how you can best help them? I feel like that's an underlying unhelpful belief. What do you think?

[00:08:07] Marie: What a way to trap workers. I mean, I've always asked for a pay rise in every single job. Um, if there's a range and it says above award range, I'm like, okay, well, what, what's the above award? Um, but what a way to really push female dominated industries. Expected overtime for nursing, expected overtime, like teachers work their butts off and do all this marking. And even when I was in paid employment, I was still doing probably case notes and PD and supervision out of hours. And at times, some of that I wanted to do to not to grow or to get a new position or to kind of enhance my skills. And sometimes it was just, you just could not keep up with the work. Like, the system was broken and we copped a lot of that as well and it's, it's so disheartening to think you can do all this work and maybe not afford a comfortable lifestyle in a suburb that you grew up in and do things that you kind of thought you would do when you were studying. Like we're actually, we're part of an economy and it's an exchange of energy and exchange of money and our financial security is part of self care.

[00:09:14] Bronwyn: Yeah, I hear that because I was thinking about this in preparation for our episode, but I was thinking like, wouldn't it be lovely if the world was such that I could deliver my services to people who need them and perhaps can't financially afford them, but I could also be financially comfortable and it would be lovely to live in such a world. Right?

[00:09:35] Um, but unfortunately, that is not the reality. And so we do need to manage our own, I guess, financial sustainability with the services we provide. Acknowledging that some people may not be able to benefit from them and then that's a painful feeling to be able to sit with.

[00:09:52] Marie: It is. And it's across so many industries. And I think it is hard when I do have the belief and growing up in Australia that healthcare should be free and accessible, and that's no longer the case. And it is conflicting to be in an industry that is very out of reach for people. And I think it's something that is so fundamental for wellbeing and so valuable, and sometimes the people that need it most can't access it. And you can spend your whole career. Turning yourself inside out and literally burning the candle at both ends and still not even feel like you make a dent in that. So I think it's really, it's really hard and I think money's not inherently bad.

[00:10:34] Bronwyn: Yeah,

[00:10:34] Marie: We deserve to get paid both those things can be true.

[00:10:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think, yeah, both of those things being true at once is the key here because I think another way that we can get ourselves into knots like you're pointing to earlier was if we take the social injustice of healthcare not being available freely to everybody and try and solve that on our own by lowering our fees or having free fees. And we can try and take on that burden when, if we have a look at the and, it's like, healthcare should be free and that sucks, but and I'm not responsible for solving that problem on my own.

[00:11:14] Marie: No, and you can do things that feel more sustainable for long term. So I know for me, whenever I've increased my pay and it hasn't happened in a little while, I increased some of the regular donations I have. And I started that from way back when I, um, started learning about finances. I did the good old Scott, Scott Pape, The Barefoot Investor. And he has a big thing there of giving back and setting a percentage of income for that. So whenever my income goes up, I donate more. Whenever I have, um, more opportunity to volunteer, I do volunteer more. Uh, I've just signed up with Parks Victoria to try and do some local volunteering on more of a sort of literally hands on stuff. And I coordinate the local mental health professionals network. and a local peer supervision group that are both free and I can disseminate that, that information. So I use my skills and expertise to do a one to many and then throughout the years I've had different opportunities to have like social work students on placement and mentor people.

[00:12:12] And so I still give back, but I can't do that if I am completely cooked by my workload. So you still get to do good and you still get to donate your time or put, um, things in place. Sometimes you might have a retainer, like a percentage of clients that you think, look, I can bulk bill. Um, I do like, I don't charge my NDIS clients, my normal rate, and that's a significant loss for me. But I have a few things where I think if all these other things are working well, then I can afford to do these few things that give people an opportunity. And that means I probably can do it for longer than if I try to, I literally lose money on bulk billing. So that's just not an option. Um, and that would mean like, I would have to like have another source of income to pay me to bulk bill. Like it's just, the math doesn't add up.

[00:13:04] Bronwyn: No. And what you're describing sounds like quite a healthy mindset. It's like, you're still living in lines with your values. So you are able to contribute to your community in some ways, but you're also making sure that your value of, caring for yourself, which includes financial sustainability, is being lived out as well.

[00:13:23] I'm wondering, how did you develop this healthy approach? Were you always like this or did it require some shifts for you?

[00:13:32] Marie: It's, it's tricky. I think I was a little bit of both. Like I grew up in a family that ran small businesses. So I was quite comfortable with the idea of entrepreneurship and, um, like sales and marketing. And I, I had a real, like my mum was, I worked for my mum in a number of different organisational companies at the time, and she used to give me this really beautiful example around sales being around value adding, and if you provide a really good quality service or product, you're helping someone and then they might also buy from you, but that wasn't the bit you were trying to force.

[00:14:05] So we used the example of, um, going to Officeworks and you're going to buy a printer and you, you buy the printer and you get home and you're like, there's no print- there's no ink in the printer and there's no paper. And I don't have the cord that I need to connect it to my, um, computer with the, to update the software. So not only has that salesperson missed an opportunity for the add on, but they've also not helped you. And so I always saw good customer service as a way to provide that good support. So if you go to buy a print and the person's like, oh, don't forget, it actually doesn't come with paper. This is the one that works best with that. And it doesn't have ink. So you might want to get these cartridges and you might say, look, I've got the same printer at home. I'm just swapping it out. That's fine. But you appreciate that good quality service.

[00:14:53] So I had an ability to understand like that, that good quality service, and providing that experience to someone can also increase your bottom dollar. But then I've also had a really big social justice kind of worldly idea. So I studied, um, psychology to begin with, and I loved criminology, and that was really systems based and looking at the world and how we interact. And then I studied social work. So it is, it's been hard. Like I've, I've wanted to always do something sort of activist based. And also, I was quite comfortable wanting to earn a decent amount of money for my skills and expertise.

[00:15:31] And I found it appalling that I could have all these qualifications and yet someone who's got one degree, who's maybe worked their way up or maybe have no degree and just working I don't know, maybe real estate, earned significantly more than me. And literally sometimes. Sometimes, sometimes, I'm genuinely saving people's lives, or their marriages, or their relationships, or doing something that is, is so significant. And it's like, why shouldn't that get valued?

[00:15:59] And so, I don't know if I've reconciled that completely, but I keep having these discussions. I have them more and more openly on forums like this or with other peers. And I've given up this idea of having to have a solid answer and I just kind of update the software. So I'll have a conversation, something might resonate with me, my circumstances might change and I'm being a bit more flexible with that and just say, look, it can keep evolving and I don't have to have it perfectly understood right now.

[00:16:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I really like how you emphasize that evolving way of looking at finances and your attitudes towards finances. It's like there isn't going to be an end point where we have, I guess, perfect, perfect in air quotes, views on finances. It's always changing and shifting and one thing I picked up in your description was that there seems to be some anger about the, I mean, justifiable anger about the injustice say of the, the thing we were sold was that if we get these qualifications, we get these degrees, we'll then have salaries that are commensurate with those degrees and we'll be able to pay off our HECS in a reasonable time and what we're seeing now is that maybe that's a lie. Um, maybe that doesn't match up, and that produces some anger, which can, in my opinion, I think that helps us solidify what's important to us. And I know that prompts me to think of, well, how can I approach this with a problem solving framework and make sure that I'm okay.

[00:17:21] Marie: How do you?

[00:17:23] Bronwyn: That's a good question. I think what I do is I make sure that it's sustainable. So when I look at my private practice, when I look at other income, I do value money. And like, for example, I'm just being offered another contract for a job. And one of my first questions was like, is it going to be the same pay that I'm on now, which I'm happy with? How can we make that possible? Um, because yeah, it's important to me and that's, that's how I live. And I make sure that I'm securing my future and my family's future.

[00:17:50] Um, in terms of like other activism, if I need to meet with my local member for federal parliament, I will do that. I'll go talk to people and make sure that I guess policymakers are knowing what's happening with what we're experiencing and I closely follow what's happening in that area.

[00:18:07] Marie: It's hard because I think if you've got, money is not inherently good or bad, it's what we do with it and good people will do good things with more money. And maybe not so good people will do not so good things with lots of money. And so there's that thing of, if I am in a position where I can earn more and make more, I give back to the, I'll do more of, everything I do will just be on a larger scale, more money in my community, more mentorship.

[00:18:36] I mean, even the podcast, that's a labor of love that started 100 percent for my students. And that was again, one of those examples of, I was not getting paid to promote the, back then it was the RMIT student fieldwork education program... um, it cost me a fortune, lots of time. Back then I wasn't even as proficient as I am now in recording episodes and editing them. So one episode, like my first one took like six hours to edit. Like it was like gruellingly painful and the tech was all glitchy. And so, you know, that's the, they're the examples of to try and increase the awareness of our field or to increase education for other social workers. I was putting in significant time outside of that and that still hasn't paid off.

[00:19:18] And that's part of my, uh, one of my values is, um, is to educate and to learn. So I love learning. Um, and the, the three, um, values for The Therapy Hub is connect, grow and discover. And that's that growth bit and that discovery and elevating the voices of other people who weren't well known, other programs, a lot of charities and organizers back in the day when I first started... um, that was all done for free, um, and it still is.

[00:19:45] And so you, you can give back in whatever skill set that you've got, but I think people need to be very, very careful that they have a secure base for themselves, that they're not relying on a partner or, some other source of income if they're going to go out and do this on their own, because it is a business and it's not a hobby and it's not volunteer work.

[00:20:08] Bronwyn: So with our work not being a hobby, is this something that you've seen? So let's have a chat about the views of money that you may have seen out there in the wilderness, in students, in what you've seen on the internet. What's the ones that you are like, that's an unhealthy money mindset.

[00:20:26] Marie: I think the most simple is that I'm not good with money and that is kind of like a head in the sand approach. And I don't know if maybe I have, oh, maybe I do have unrelenting standards or some sort of high expectations, but I would have thought for a group of professionals who spend most of their time helping other people sit in discomfort and move through that, we might be a little bit better at this. And That's not necessarily the case.

[00:20:52] You might not have been good at maths as a young person. You might have tried to do accounting at, you know, year 11 and 12 and not been great at it. To say I'm not good with money is just total bullshit. And that holds people back from sitting down, looking at their finances, even printing out a bank statement, going through line by line, setting a budget.

[00:21:14] Like, just that belief that I can't do this can, can ruin someone's business. To not know your overheads, your expenses, your, um, like, things like work cover, insurance, like to not sit down and do that and just say, oh, I'm just no good with money is terrible. It can really make someone so vulnerable to all sorts of things.

[00:21:37] So I guess that would be the biggest one to start with is you have to say, I don't know this yet. And just like you didn't know how to be a therapist from day one, and you, that took, you know, a six, eight, ten year journey, this will be learn, learnable as well.

[00:21:53] Bronwyn: I reckon mental health professionals are, you know, they're smart folk. I don't, I kind of don't believe them that they would have a skill deficit or they wouldn't be able to learn it, like you say, if like they can learn how to do their profession. They can certainly learn how to look at some numbers, bearing in mind that some people might have difficulties with numbers. But I'm wondering if there's beliefs that might be behind the, I can't deal with money. What do you think they could be?

[00:22:17] Marie: Look, I, it could be individual, um, kind of childhood beliefs, early experiences. Sometimes they're subconscious, uh, well, they're usually subconscious. Uh, it could be seeing a parent maybe spend too much money. And so you just don't understand what that's like.

[00:22:34] So again, we can overcompensate for a behavior. We can kind of repeat the same thing, or maybe having someone who was, uh, growing up in a family that was very frugal. And so you might also then be very frugal. Or you might splurge because you felt so restricted when you were young. So you might have these extremes. It could be a comment someone said when you were younger about maths that you struggled with.

[00:22:57] There's a range of different things, but it's not, it's not good enough to not know, and even if you're not in private practice, you should still have some basic financial literacy so you can save for the future, and then the present that you want, whether that's just managing your budget, whether that's saving for something, if that's, you know, a holiday, a trip, investment, your, your, you know, retirement, like they're important things to have sorted out.

[00:23:26] And as a tertiary educated professional, there is no reason that this should be hard for you or impossible. Awkward, uncomfortable, difficult, yes, but there's no reason that with the basic numeracy and literacy that you've had to get through to pass statistics, like seriously, that's complicated shit.

[00:23:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:23:47] Marie: You should be able to do this with a bit of help, some resources, maybe some cries. That's okay. There's no reason that you couldn't do it.

[00:23:57] Bronwyn: Definitely. I want to talk about two money mindsets with you that I think might be relevant to early career listeners. And one of them I think is relevant to them, but also to me. And so this is a bit of me sorting out stuff. The first one that's, uh, I think I've gotten past, but I think is relevant to early career listeners is this, which is I don't deserve to earn more until I'm more experienced. What do you think?

[00:24:21] Marie: Again, that's, that's okay, but you still need to have a bit of a formula in mind of what does it cost you to turn on the lights? So you might not open up a restaurant like, I don't know, for those in Melbourne, like Navi... like..., you're not, you might not be like, oh, I'm an apprentice chef and I'm going to try and open a chef's hat restaurant.

[00:24:44] You might start with something simpler and smaller and you still need to have an idea of if I don't feel comfortable charging that, That's okay. But how do I make this work? How many, um, sessions do I need a day? How many sessions do I need a week? What are my overheads? So make that decision based on facts and figures.

[00:25:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. What about people who are not setting their own fees, but are being told what their fee is or just earning a salary. What about that belief I don't deserve to earn more until I'm more experienced. I don't know. Could that be holding us back or is that a realistic belief? Like, you know, uh, you know, a first year person probably isn't going to be earning the same amount as a 10 year person.

[00:25:29] Marie: I think it really depends on what you have to offer. And I struggle with this because sometimes I do think experience does matter. And yet we don't want to say that there's no value in that. So you might need to figure out again, what's your... what's the change you're creating for that person? What's the impact you're having on that person's life? So, you know, you might think of a service that we might pay for. Like, do you want, um, there's, I don't know, what's the one that comes up a lot around, let's say working with, um, virtual admins or VA's is like, do you want the 30 hours of the VA that charges 10 an hour? Or would you rather 10 hours with the VA that charges 30 an hour? And sometimes we think, well, that person, if they're charging 30 an hour, they're probably going to get a lot done of a higher quality of a higher level, and maybe they're actually really good at it.

[00:26:18] So you get to kind of weigh that up. You might've come across from another industry and it might take you a bit of time to establish those skills, but it's also what the market is asking. Is your niche needed? Is it in demand? And, your marketing, your branding, is there scarcity in that talent? Like there's actually a lot of competing factors and you have to really understand that because you're a business. If you're in private practice, even if you're a contractor, that's a business to business arrangement.

[00:26:50] So you're a business and it's on you to work out, can you afford this? If you think about the rate you're taking and it's, it's not that lucrative being a group private practice owner, because when you've got so many overheads, but when you're thinking like, a client's paying a certain amount of money, let's say 200 for a round number. You don't make 200 an hour from that. You've got to cover so many expenses and that's across any industry.

[00:27:16] Like we might think, Oh, I've gone out for brunch. It's like, well, it's just a piece of toast and an egg. It's like, well, it's the rent, the shop fit out, the insurance, the, I don't know, electricals, the gas water heating, um, the, the chef, the staff, the bookkeeper, their, their, um, they might have an accountant, they might have a dishwasher, like an actual person there, or do like, you know, they've got to buy cups and plates and cutlery, like there's all these things. So it's not just, you know, I could have gone and made a piece of toast.

[00:27:45] Bronwyn: Yes, there's a lot that goes into what we charge people and a lot of value they get out of it. So when we're thinking about that belief, I don't deserve to earn more until I'm more experienced. It's not the simplistic is what I'm hearing from you, because there may be other dimensions that you may be able to offer value on.

[00:28:02] For example, let's say you specialize in sex therapy for older couples. Pretty niche area, um, might be a lot of value in that for some people. And even though you may have been in it for one year, you may be able to value add more than somebody else who has been at for 10, but not have that specialization.

[00:28:20] Marie: Yeah. And I think, some people aren't going to like this, but some of us, some, I'm not going to say, like, I don't know if I'm one of them. Some people are better at their job than others. Some people are better at building rapport. Some people get better outcomes. Uh, some people are more likeable or connect better with clients and they'll probably be in a position where they can charge more.

[00:28:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, true. True that.

[00:28:45] Okay. Here's the other belief I wanted to talk about. And it's one that is my current limiting belief. And I want to guide you along it by explaining it in this way. So bear with me for a sec, cause I was thinking of a metaphor and then I opened the fridge for lunch and I saw butter. And so I'm going to explain it using butter, which is how much would you pay for an excellent butter? Like what's the top limit you would pay? And it's a luxurious butter. It's really nice butter. I'm assuming you're not vegan, but I don't know. Um, how much would you pay for it?

[00:29:17] Marie: I reckon I've paid 10 to 12 for a like cultured butter, but they come in like, it comes in like a ball, like a salted ball, looks like a bar of soap. Yeah, it's great.

[00:29:29] Bronwyn: But like, butter has an upper limit, so you wouldn't be paying like $75 a butter, right?

[00:29:37] Marie: Suppose not.

[00:29:38] Bronwyn: Okay, so here's where I'm struggling, which is that if I think of that in terms of therapy, I'm like, there has to be an upper limit where, like, I can charge for therapy and I'm having a, uh, a struggle because I'm like, how much is therapy worth? And then I've gone into knots about this and I'm like, what is the upper limit? Not what I can charge, but how much do I think, like butter, how much is therapy worth? And so I'm struggling to charge more because I'm like, I don't actually think therapy is worth more than this. And I don't know whether I'm undervaluing therapy or undervaluing myself. Anyway, I just want to hear your perspective.

[00:30:13] Marie: But that might be something to, like, if the cost of, um, milk went up and the cost of electricity went up and churning the butter went up, people would have to make a decision. Either I pay what it costs for butter because that's, that's the reality, or I switch to a different spread. Or you might think, well, yes, $10 might be the upper limit for butter, but if you go to a restaurant and there is a beautiful warm piece of sourdough bread and a little bit of butter that's smeared on it, suddenly that's $20 bucks. So is there value add? It's really tricky because that's some of the reality of economics.

[00:30:58] Bronwyn: It is, yeah. And I, I something else is like tied into that. It's like, well, if you don't give yourself a pay rise with inflation, you're actually taking a pay cut. And so I'm like, yeah, then it, then it needs to go up.

[00:31:09] Marie: But I think about what I would pay, um, for those who we've probably talked about, like I love Esther Perel. I reckon I would pay... I reckon I'd pay grand for an hour in a room with her.

[00:31:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, I would too. And I don't even like follow her that deeply.

[00:31:27] Marie: That, you know, that's like spending 50 bucks on butter. Like, you know, you might have a t shirt that's signed by a band and you think, why on earth would someone want to pay that much money for that t shirt? It's what you, what worth you put in it, right? And then the, how famous that band gets.

[00:31:43] Bronwyn: Yep, so I guess what you're saying is that maybe there's no absolute value of therapy, rather it's how valuable it is to the person receiving it and that might be worth 50 bucks or it might be worth $2,000 bucks.

[00:31:58] Marie: Yeah, and that's not to say that there are some people out there who value it, who desire it and still can't afford it. And that's, that's the dilemma. Okay. And that's the, the difficulty that we sit in with this is, it's not saying that some people don't value it. Some really, really do. And some will prioritize rent and then therapy, and they, they value it so much and see how life changing. And other people, that's the first expense to go. And some people need it so much and there's nothing left in their budget.

[00:32:33] And the irony is, I've been at that point as well. I've had moments where business wasn't going well, cost of living was crazy, and I didn't have enough money at the end of the week to pay for a therapist who charged, not even close to what I charge. There literally was nothing else. I'm like, if I was really, really unwell, yes, I probably would get a loan, put it on credit, maybe ask someone for money. I'd refinance something. But it wasn't at that point yet, but it's, it's hard. It's like, it's not that I don't value it, but I had to make a choice of what's more important right now.

[00:33:09] And so it is sometimes in the eyes of the beholder. And then there are some realities, like someone be like, yeah, I'd love to, get that t shirt signed by Taylor Swift. And I love her and I think she's amazing. Or I'd love to get the VIP ticket for a concert. And I still don't have that kind of money.

[00:33:25] Bronwyn: Yeah, it really is a big dilemma. And even just having this very brief conversation, it really just highlights to me how many facets of money beliefs there are. There's the stuff that you've grown up with, the stuff that you've been taught and the stuff you've been socialized with, that all coalesce into something, yeah, quite, um, can, it can be quite difficult. So I guess the question is, are there any practical strategies that we can say to listeners who have a lot of anxiety or overwhelm about finances? What can they do?

[00:33:55] Marie: Educate yourself like you would with so many other areas. Start to digest some content in bite sized pieces. So some podcasts might be a good start for you. Um, I like the Barefoot Investor book. That was good for personal finances. The, um, She's On The Money.

[00:34:12] Bronwyn: Love She's on the Money.

[00:34:13] Marie: Yeah, really great. And then there's the podcast as the She's on the Money Invest as the Business Bible. So there's a few really digestible stuff, um, there for millennials. So the language is a little bit user friendly. Um, that was been really good. There's the Australian Finance Podcast, which I've been a guest on a few times talking about how we talk about money.

[00:34:33] Um, there's, there's lots of find a few things and find someone who explains it in a language that makes sense for you and start to do that. So digest some of that content and that'll give you some ideas around how to then start thinking about that. And so many business coaches, almost anybody that works in this space will have had, they'll have something on their content, in their socials, on a blog post, on a podcast episode where they talk about money mindset. So, you know, you can use Spotify or the Apple podcast app as a bit of a search engine and type in money mindset psychologist or money mindset social workers or private practice money mind, something like that, and you'll get... will get some stuff started.

[00:35:13] And I think if you're partnered, they're really good conversations to have is to like, think about what does money mean? How do we talk about finances? I know we've referenced the eight dates book. Um, that's got a whole chapter on money. So even understanding your story about money, where those myths came from, like, I think of, um, you know, if you were little, and you had, um, you know, you saw a, I don't know, I don't even know, a fancy, an Audi, a Mercedes drive past, and your parents, or someone made the comment, being like, oh, what's that person overcompensating for? Or, you know, something like that. You might start to make the association of having nice things must mean you're a douchebag or a wanker and you we don't even realize the power of those things. And so you might actually sabotage making money because you've subconsciously associated that with being a bad person.

[00:36:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, that ties in so much to this belief. Like if I charge too much, people will think I'm greedy. Um, if I charge too much, the clinician, other clinicians will think, what am I overcompensating for? Um, who do I think I am charging this much? Yeah, I think people do hold themselves back from earning their financial potential because of the fear of judgment and criticism from other people. Um, so there's a lot of practical strategies we can do. And I think there's a lot of internal work that we could also do as well.

[00:36:36] Marie: Yeah, I've done a few different Courses and I've done one through I've got had a really great time Business coach called, um, Fiona Johnson, and she's got a, um, Get Financially Fit course. So that was really, really great. And then I did one through Tess Crawley, the CEO Mindset. And between the two of them, there's a few, you know, sort of consistent themes that come out, but we can fall into a number of different categories when we talk about money mindset.

[00:37:01] And one is like, it's kind of been like, Like avoid investing in tools and resources and, and you'll see it. You'll see it in Facebook groups, people like, oh, it's coming up to my, you know, registration renewal. And you know, it's been hard as a business owner. So I'd appreciate if anyone's got some free training that I can do to get my CPD hours. And they almost do it as like a... poor me, I've suffered what's available and I'm all for being frugal and I'm all for being creative with where you're spending your money. for having me. But there's a tone that makes it different, you know.

[00:37:36] And then there's people who undercharge. And I think that's often as a fear of rejection. So if you're really undercharging, you might want to explore that too. What is the fear? And then there's some people who hoard cash and who save money and they don't pay themselves and they're scared of it running out. And so it's just really helpful to just start to explore those things, explore those beliefs and just get to understand yourself better.

[00:38:02] And do the hard things that you tell your clients to do. If you're struggling with this, go have a few sessions with a therapist or talk with your supervisor about one part of it and talk to your therapist or someone, you know, in a peer supervision group. Talk about this a little bit and start to unpack what it's like for you. You know, you can use some examples. You don't have to talk, tell clients, you know, I talk about money mindset, but you can say, I've been in that position of having to learn something new at my age, and it's really scary. And that might be the truth. You might've had to learn to, you know, some basic accounting and basic bookkeeping, and it was overwhelming and being okay to sit in that discomfort, to hold that lightly, to explore those feelings. That's living and breathing the work that you're charging people for.

[00:38:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking, like, you know how there are some things that we learn through experience and we're like, oh, you know, in the end, I'm glad I went through that because I could learn that. I think with money, like, I wish that I didn't have to go through it to have learned it. I wish we had had these conversations earlier and I wish I had had them at the start and done the work rather than gone through it.

[00:39:11] Like the consequences for me were not too severe, but just as an example, I undercharged way too much when I first started out and then it made increases much harder and I had to do multiple because I was undercharging so much. And then there were a few other examples. Again, like, relatively minor consequences, but I wish I didn't have to go through it to learn it. Um, so yeah, I would really encourage people to get on the front foot with this and have a look at their money approaches.

[00:39:38] Marie: But that's the sort of stuff. And we talked about it, we've talked about it briefly in other episodes and little snippets, but you, if you started as a bit of a side hustle, you have to make those mistakes. If you're going to, you're going to lose, you know, talked about, you're going to lose something there at time, money was quality. If you went all in and you thought just like you were, if you were to, you know, get some venture capitalist funding or apply for a loan at the bank and you had a full business plan and you were going to open up a restaurant or, you know, sell scented candles or... butter company, um, you might have a business coach, a mentor, a business plan written up. You might have that stuff structured, so that you don't make those mistakes starting off. And so that's part of the limitations. You wanted to do it cheaply and you wanted to do it slowly and it costs you something. And that's, that's okay.

[00:40:29] Cause what was the alternative? You would have had to maybe take a loan or use some of your savings to sit down with. A business coach or a financial advisor and say, this is my idea. What do I do? And they might've helped you set it up. And that could have cost you a few thousand dollars to then not undercharge.

[00:40:47] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:40:48] Marie: And So, it just came from some, you lose, you can't have it all at once.

[00:40:52] Bronwyn: no, it's so true and I guess that comes back to we try and make the best decisions we can at the time. Um, with money though, there can be more serious consequences. Like you said at the very start, it's like, older women are the fastest rising group of homeless people in Australia. So it's like, we need to be sure that we are earning super, um, that we are earning adequately, to help us along in life and not just us, but our loved ones as well.

[00:41:19] So Marie, what do you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today? I guess if you could leave them with one or two things, what is it that would be the top most things?

[00:41:29] Marie: Start somewhere. Start with understanding this. And if you're listening and you're not in private practice, there's still a lot of value in understanding your finances. Um, understanding how to save money, how to maybe invest money, how to set up for super, like making extra contributions, understanding your tax,

[00:41:47] There is, we underestimate how much we can do in 10 years. And sometimes we overestimate what we can do in a year. So small, consistent steps, setting up those good systems, being, you know, starting to educate yourself is great. Open up the, you know, get a library card... libraries still exist and they have online books that you can borrow as eBooks. You can read them on your phone or your iPad and audio books. She's on the money, is in the library, so you can get it for free, start somewhere, you know, check out a few podcast episodes with someone that's helpful.

[00:42:25] Um, but it's, it's okay not to know. And it's, it's now that you've heard this, it's not an excuse. Okay. You've got to start somewhere and make those small changes and it can be confronting. It can be overwhelming. You're not alone. A lot of people have been there, but you're going to set yourself up for so much more success and longevity, not just in the field, but, for life, you know, you want to work out the kind of lifestyle you want to live and this will help you with that.

[00:42:55] Bronwyn: 100%. I do think the biggest benefits so far that I've seen of just becoming a little bit financially more literate for me and addressing my beliefs... first is that I'm more resilient to when I see judgment online. So like, if I say, oh, you're so greedy or kind of implying that, or people like, Oh, you should be a martyr... um, I'm more resilient to that. I'm able to connect to my own values and then. The other benefit is that I'm more financially secure, of course. Yeah. Um, but I'm curious, have you seen benefits from increasing your knowledge?

[00:43:29] Marie: It's reduced the, the anxiety day to day. So once I started learning, that Barefoot model of, of in putting money in different accounts, it meant that it kept me accountable to my spending. It kept me not freaking out whenever there was a big bill because that was sort of buffered. And I did a simpler version of that even when I was younger and renting. I literally had paper envelopes and I was putting money in those and that gives you a sense of control.

[00:43:58] And knowing your ins and outs and being informed gives you so much more control. So then you can set boundaries around where you go for dinner or what you spend money on for Christmas or what holiday you can afford. Like if you're informed, you're not going to have those as many of those unexpected surprises. And it does help like having a bit of money saved I was able to pay for a surgery that I needed privately instead of waiting another, you know, 12, 18 months in pain that maybe would have cost me more because of the amount of time that I would have to take off from work.

[00:44:33] So there are some benefits to having that buffer there. And the more, you know, the more informed you are, you can make more educated choices. It's, it's not a, it's not enough to just say, oh, I don't know anything about finance. Even if your partner's really good at it... still understand the basics, know where it's going, get an understanding of the overall picture, and start to have that, those conversations so you know, you know, you know what's happening with your hard earned cash.

[00:45:02] Like, you're, you're busting your butts at uni, in, on placement, at work, to spend the best hours of your day, the best years of your life to earn this digital currency now, because it's not paper. And you want to know where it's going. You want every single dollar to have a goal, to have a job. Every dollar should have a job. You know, if you've gone somewhere and you've had a shitty dinner and you've spent $50, I want you to think, I worked for over an hour for that. Was that worth it? Like, give every dollar a job.

[00:45:34] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so true. Well, thank you so much, Marie. And I believe ... you've got a course coming up on this.

[00:45:44] Marie: Yeah, so just after our conversation, I thought it'd be really good. So I've got a webinar coming up, um, building healthy money mindset. Um, and that'll be on my website so people can check that out live. And if you've missed it live, um, it'll be on demand when that's done.

[00:45:58] Bronwyn: And what's your website?

[00:45:59] Marie: marievacacis.com.au

[00:46:01] Bronwyn: Excellent, I'll make sure I put that in the show notes. I think it'd be really valuable to get on board with it for the reasons we discussed, but I just don't think it's unique. I reckon every one of us, because they've all grown up with money and in relationship with money, either not having enough, having, lots or, you know, different types of relationships, like, yeah, we all need to, we all need to think about it. Like, we've all got beliefs about it. Some might be limiting, some might be healthy, some might be unhealthy. Anyway, sounds like a great course. Well done.

[00:46:30] Marie: Thanks.

[00:46:31] Bronwyn: Yeah. And thanks so much for coming on the podcast again, Marie. It's such a pleasure to have you and your insights. And I feel like you're a good balance to me because I'm like, well, I don't know anything. And you're like, I know things. And I'm like, great.

[00:46:43] Marie: Yeah. But then you come back with, oh yeah, I know that too.

[00:46:47] Bronwyn: Occasionally, yes, I have insights. Yeah, thank you.

[00:46:50] Okay, mental workers, thank you so much for listening. It's so good to have your company. And if you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to share it with a mate. Word of mouth is still the best way for people to find out about podcasts. So put it in their ear and make sure you subscribe so you can get the latest episodes into your feed.

[00:47:07] Have a good one. Catch you next time and bye.