Beyond therapy: Non-clinical creative hustles (with Caitlin Bell)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology, hosted by me, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins.

Have you ever felt overwhelmed, lost, or on the brink of burning out in your career? You're definitely not alone. In today's episode, I'm bringing you a listener story, which I love bringing to you and it's of a therapist who tried to find a way to stay in the profession by merging her clinical and creative So Here to share their story with us is our guest, Caitlin Bell. Hi Caitlin.

[00:00:35] Caitlin: Hello. Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:00:38] Bronwyn: It is such a pleasure to have you on. Caitlin, can you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-psychology passion is?

[00:00:45] Caitlin: Yes, of course. So my name's Caitlin. I'm a psychologist soon to be clinical psych. So I finished my, um, registration requirements, which is very exciting. Yeah, I'm so happy because it. Yeah, it wasn't, or almost wasn't going to be that way. So it's, it feels extra special. Um, but I work, uh, in private practice in a tiny little town in far north Queensland called Tully. So I live here with my, um, husband and my little mini schnauzer Heidi.

Um, but my, I was just saying to Bron, before that, I had a little bit of a crisis when I was thinking about what my like non... non psychology passion was. I think before I, um, I say this very jokingly, but before I sold my soul to psychology, I would've said traveling was my passion. But I think now, like it's definitely copywriting and writing, but that's still to do with work for me. So then I was thinking what else is like outside of work that's... And this is a bit of a silly thing, but I love going to cafes and sitting down and like people watching and eavesdropping on conversations.

[00:01:55] Bronwyn: It is so funny because I like doing those things too, and I think a lot of people do. They just don't have the guts to say it. So I am proud of you for being able to say, I like people watching.

[00:02:05] Caitlin: Thank you. It's a nice little thing to do for sure.

[00:02:09] Bronwyn: It is. It is definitely cool, and I really enjoy going to cafes. And sometimes you overhear people and you're like, oh, what's happening over there? That's exciting. Like Karen got into an argument. Oh, I wonder what that's about.

Um, once I missed, once I was on a train and I missed my stop and the next stop from my stop was 20 minutes away, so it was devo to miss my stop 'cause then I had to travel 20 minutes and catch the train back. Um, and the reason why I missed it was because I was eavesdropping too hard on another conversation on the train. And it was really interesting. Um, so yeah, hard relate.

[00:02:41] Caitlin: That's amazing.

[00:02:44] Bronwyn: So Caitlin, I reckon we'll just start off with having you share your journey with us. So could you tell us what it was like maybe to get your registration and then what led you to take on the clinical registrar program?

[00:02:57] Caitlin: Yeah. Um, so I, my journey to psychology was like a little bit windy, like a lot. I think that's the theme of my story for sure. So I started off doing a Bachelor of Arts, um, and I changed quite a few times, like my majors as I... yeah, was working out what I wanted to do. And I eventually start, um, did. Majored in French and philosophy, which I loved. Um, I wasn't the best student though, because I would often like spend most of my, my time in the uni bar and like be, um, debating with all the philosophy kids, which like I, it was a lot of fun.

Um, but I took a long time to do my degree, um, undergrad degree. It was about six years because I was traveling and doing all these lovely things living overseas, but then I reached a point where I thought, oh my gosh, I've gotta make a decision like, am I going to, you know, stay overseas and, um, live that life or am I gonna maybe return to Australia and be a grown up and get a career and do all of that?

And I ended up deciding to come back to Australia and I, um, I did what a lot of people did, and I enrolled in like psychology. So I, but I did the grad dip because I had done the Bachelor of Arts, um, prior... so for all those people that say, what can you do with an arts degree? That's what you can do. So I did that. And then, um, of course I did the, the honors afterwards.

And I didn't, this is a bit silly, but I didn't realize how long the progression is with psychology. I just, yeah, it was like the next thing. I was like, yes, I've done honors, and then everyone was applying for Masters. And I thought, okay, I guess I'll do that too. And I kind of just followed along what was happening and somehow got into Masters. I, I still dunno why... that actually impacted a lot of my time in Masters. 'cause I felt like I such an imposter. Like I felt like such a fraud for being there.

Um, but yeah, and even Masters was quite difficult for me because I'm someone who is... I'm very like unstructured. I'm like, I don't think I've ever really been able to use a diary. Like I wouldn't say I am. I guess on the outside I look disorganized, but I get things done. But I'm just didn't fit the, the mold of what a lot of the other students were like.

And then learning CBT and I, to be honest, Bron, like just between you and me, I don't know if I've ever been able to effectively set an agenda. Like it's just not... it is just not me. And, and I really struggled with that. I was like, there's something wrong with me. I, I'm, I'm not a psych, I can't be a psychologist.

Um, but then I read this book, which has saved me, it was really good, um, called The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom. And of course you are like, yeah, learn learning a little bit about like psychodynamic therapy or psychoanalysis, and was like, this is amazing and beautiful. And so I think a part of me kind of held onto that, that there was a different way of practicing or a different way of being as a therapist.

[00:05:48] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. So like there's a place for me outside of what I'm seeing here.

[00:05:52] Caitlin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. And so I think that really helped me on some level and even though I probably at the times didn't really recognize it. So then when I got out of Master's and I decided that I wanted to pursue the psychodynamic pathway well and um, yeah, found myself a supervisor who's like a dynamic therapist, clinical psychologist, according to my own therapy as well, um, which was... yeah, really, confronting, but awesome.

My first job though, was, I was really lucky. I got a job from my first external placement in Masters, so they, yeah, continued, um, me on, I was working in age care as a psychologist, which I loved working with older adults.

[00:06:37] Bronwyn: I love working with older adults too. My first placement was with older adults and I loved it. Um, I think it's fantastic work.

[00:06:44] Caitlin: It is, isn't it? It's so good. Did you work? Where did you work? Like in aged care or?

[00:06:48] Bronwyn: No. I worked in a private hospital, but in the older adults program. Yes. Yeah.

[00:06:54] Caitlin: It's, yeah, it's really, it is lovely work. I, I still hold a lot of things that I, like. Older adults are so wise and some of the things that they would say to me or say about their situation. It, yeah, it was so impactful and so...

[00:07:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Yeah.

[00:07:11] Caitlin: I feel very honored to have had that as my first, yeah, job.

[00:07:14] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. No, I agree. It's, um, and there's just like different things and if you're interested in, I guess like psychodynamic therapy or existential therapy, there's a lot of, I guess, existential type concerns that older adults bring and it's, it's really interesting.

[00:07:28] Caitlin: Definitely. It's, um, good place to be. Yeah.

[00:07:32] Bronwyn: So that was your first job. Um, you're working with older adults, and how was that for you?

[00:07:38] Caitlin: Yeah. No, it was, um, it was good. I enjoyed it, um, a lot. I.

Also like me being me, like I, um, one job wasn't enough. So then when I finished like my Master's and went out into the wide world, I had about, at one stage I had about three different jobs. So I was working private practice for a com, like a company, plus I was doing my aged care work, plus I was working in government. I think classic Caitlin, but I wanna try everything. I wanna try everything.

But at the same time, um, yeah, it wasn't really sustainable. And I've, particularly with the government work, like I struggled quite a bit with how things were done. I know the best way I can describe it is, and this is like a, um, metaphor that really helps with, do you know that meme where there's like that dog sitting at the desk like drinking coffee and then like the whole room's on fire? Yeah. The I'm fine dog. That's exactly what it was like. Like it felt like everything was on fire and everyone's like, yeah, no, it's all cool. And like, it's not cool. Like, how is it not cool? Like it's, and that impacted me.

[00:08:48] Bronwyn: How did it impact you to kind of be the dog who's, there's something wrong here and everybody else is like, it's fine.

[00:08:55] Caitlin: Yeah. Oh, it was really difficult. I internalized that a lot. I think, like thinking that there's something must be something wrong with me, I'm not doing things correctly. Um, but then also that emotional exhaustion component for sure came out... that I was like wrestling with that and then trying to do the heavy work, 'cause I was, um, yeah, also working with older adults as well. And that was like quite a, it was quite a different difficult time.

Um, but what I yeah, found helpful was, yeah, basically in therapy, my own therapy. Luckily I was in therapy and then clinical supervision and it was just so helpful. It was like helping me see like the environment and how like be aware of the fire, I guess, rather than, I don't know, be like everyone else. It's like, yeah, it's all cool. It was good to find allies, I guess.

[00:09:45] Bronwyn: I guess if you're thinking like, oh, there's something wrong with me, then finding those allies would be really important.

[00:09:50] Caitlin: Mm, exactly. Yeah. It was a good thing for me at the time. And then after that I was like, no, I'm going to go into private practice. I think that'll be the place for me, because then I can work how I want. Like I can have my own, you know, route my own, um, schedule. I can yeah, do whatever. I'll be the, the boss. Which yeah, was cool, um, except I didn't know anything about business. So that was a big learning curve. A huge learning curve.

And then we moved to Tully. So I was, or like, studied on the Sunshine Coast. Um, lived on the Sunshine Coast and we moved up here far north Queensland and it's, yeah, very different up here.

[00:10:29] Bronwyn: One thing that you mentioned to me, Caitlin, before coming onto the podcast was that you almost burnt your psychology career to the ground. And I wonder if we're approaching that point yet. Was it working these three jobs that that made you feel that way? Or was there something else that's coming up?

[00:10:47] Caitlin: Yeah, something else that was coming up. Um, so that, yeah, definitely. So when we moved up to Tully, um, I, yeah, because I started my private practice and found out about this amazing thing called copywriting. I was like, what? This is a job, like you can literally write marketing, um, yeah, write, um, people's websites and do all of that. And so I was doing that on the side, like kind of a bit sneakily. Like I didn't really tell anyone. I didn't tell my family. Like I pretty much didn't tell my friends. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't be doing this thing.

[00:11:20] Bronwyn: I love how like, you know, some people might moonlight doing other sorts of work, but you're like, no, this copywriting, that's too shameful for me to, to share that. Yeah.

[00:11:30] Caitlin: That's it. Too shameful. Like, oh my gosh, what happens if AHPRA find out? I'm gonna be toast. And I, I love the copywriting. I still, um, do it now, but it was just such an escape and... yeah, just amazing to be in an environment and do work where I could show up completely as myself. Like I didn't have to mask or anything like that. I didn't have to have my like psychologist, Caitlin thing.

But then that kind of became the problem. 'cause I was, had these two careers. I was like, you know, being psychologist, but then I was also being copywriter and I just had this, I couldn't have them sit there together and just do them... yeah, do them both. It was this real big conflict.

And that's where I burnt out was just because I was like, how can I yeah, be a copywriter? How can I be a psychologist? Like won't, yeah, like AHPRA, police, therapy police show up at my door any moment. And it was just this really big, big struggle and I reached a point where I thought, I actually don't think I can do this anymore.

And I loved the copywriting. And so yeah, that was when I was like, I think I'm, maybe I'll just stop doing the reg program. And I actually took a little bit of a break, so I wasn't doing cl- like clinical work for a few months just to kind of see what my head, where my head was at. But luckily in yeah, therapy and, um, clinical supervision, I kind of came to realize that, that I basically, um, externalized like an inner, like conflict that I had onto like the institution and onto AHPRA, I made them this big like, big brother thing that were like, gonna be really punitive and discipline me if I like, you know, stepped out of line. But really it was my own, basically my own shit, like my own, um, yeah, my own fear of authority or my own stuff like that. Um, and so when I realized that, yeah.

[00:13:21] Bronwyn: I just wanted to stop and pause because when you say like, you know, there was this big conflict, like how can the two coexist? In my mind I was like, you know, I know plenty of psychologists who have two careers, and it might be within psychology, but sometimes they're a bit different as well and they might work as a psychologist, and then let's say they've got a floristry business on the side of something. So it's interesting to hear you say that. That, that was a big conflict for you. Um, was that the main concern that you had that um, you would get disciplined for pursuing copywriting?

[00:13:55] Caitlin: Yeah, definitely that I'll be at discipline for doing that. And then also a big, a big part of it was my like, what will everyone think, like that? Like, yeah. What will people, yeah. Particularly like what will my, so like friends and family think, like I've spent, you know, so long studying to be a psychologist, like given up a lot and then I'm all of a sudden doing this other work where like, you don't need a degree or anything like that, which is, that's okay. But I think it was just like that. I was just scared of, yeah, what, yeah, people would think. Which also speaks to, that's a mindset thing or a thing with me as well. And so that was helpful to be able to talk about that in my own therapy and, um, and supervision as well.

[00:14:44] Bronwyn: Because I don't think that's, that's definitely not uncommon. I reckon, I think, uh, a lot of us are, are quite scared of what other people might think and we've dedicated a lot of time, money, and energy to studying psychology and it's like... I imagine like maybe some of the critical things you're thinking was like, you know, they're gonna think I'm not taking this seriously, or I'm giving this up for something that's, uh, I guess air quotes unskilled like, or unqualified thing that you could, anybody could just do, like, you know, any number of criticisms that could come up. And I think that would be really scary.

[00:15:19] Caitlin: Yeah. No, absolutely. It was, it was hard and like all that thing, and I felt... another component was that I felt so alone because I was up here and it was pretty much just like me and my husband and like there's no other psychologists. Um, and I think like with what you were saying before, we are a little bit different for some reason. And I haven't exactly worked out what it is about psychology that's quite different from other healthcare professions, but there's something in it that I don't know. Do you know anything about that? Like what, what are your thoughts about like how we're different?

[00:15:51] Bronwyn: Oh gosh. I reckon my thoughts are like still coming together... I think an observation that I have is that psychologists can be quick to judge, and I don't know if that resonates with you. Like do you feel like that's true or is that like something about me?

[00:16:08] Caitlin: Yeah, no, that's, um, it's interesting you say that because I've actually been thinking that recently. It's like, 'cause I've been trying to formulate it in my head and for a profession where we, where it is kind of, we are, I guess our day to day we do judge.

[00:16:25] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:16:26] Caitlin: But then also, yeah, there's like other side of, um, unrelenting standards isn't, it's like the critical thing.

[00:16:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think so. I think the, the visual thing I have in my head is that there's a box, and the box is very strict and anything that bumps against the box is I guess fodder for somebody else to come in and say like, let's poke that back in. You're not allowed to go outside to that box even just push against the box.

[00:16:54] Caitlin: Oh, I love against the box.

[00:16:55] Bronwyn: Um, so that's my dim view of it. Um, but I dunno why. I don't know why. Maybe it is because like we're a regulated profession. Maybe it's because we have been undervalued, like psychology has been undervalued. Um, so we feel like we need to stick to the box to be more valued by society. I'm still trying to work it out myself. Do you have any ideas?

[00:17:17] Caitlin: Yeah, I, I think there's something in that about, that's what I noticed in working for government was that like people didn't know what psychologists did, what we were, we kind of get lumped together with all a lot of other professionals and we did such different work to that. And then I think, then, yeah, a lot of the psychologists would get really down about that or like quite jaded by that and have some pretty poor experiences where their skills weren't recognized or like just go and fix someone, you know, that has, you know, anxiety about their, their death that's gonna come up. It's like, well, we can't fix that.

[00:17:55] Bronwyn: No. I... yeah, so it Might be like a reactance against like feeling undervalued because if we can be like, I'm a serious professional and uh, I use all these techniques from this textbook and look at my textbooks, they're so many and varied, and look at these techniques that I have, that I have fancy words for. Um, like, you know, and anything that deviates from that. It's not only that you're pulling like the profession down, but you're pulling like individuals down. So they might react against that. I don't know. That's my like tentative formulation that I have.

[00:18:28] Caitlin: Yeah, it's, yeah. And when you were talking, it just reminded me of when I went to, when, I think it was like the first day of uni, we had some students come in and talk to us and they're like, you've gotta remember that when you, when you become a psychologist, you are last. It's like, first it's like your profession, then it's like your clients and then it's you. So like, you know, anything that you do that's outside of... yeah, exactly. A little bit different. Like all of a sudden you are tarnishing the whole of psychology, which is so much pressure to

[00:19:00] Bronwyn: It is a lot of pressure. Yeah. I guess which comes back to like that fear of being judged and it's like, what will people think? And they'll think, yeah, that I'm not this serious professional and yeah. So yeah. Very understandable. Yeah, frivolous. Totally.

[00:19:14] Caitlin: I'm still like working it out myself, so it's... it got yeah, so much better, which I'm. Whew. Phew.

[00:19:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, so I guess like where we got up to was that you took a break from clinical work for a few months and you were thinking, okay, well maybe I will do copywriting. Then you had some therapy, and it sounds like through the therapy you are able to realize like, okay, this is something about my own personal stuff that I can work through. Is that right?

[00:19:43] Caitlin: Yeah, exactly. My own. Yeah. I was like confronted with that and... that, oh yeah, it's my own thing with authority and you know, like my, you know, upbringing or not that I had a, you know, my upbringing was great, but it's just that I think a little bit of like eldest daughter syndrome or something like that, it's like, you know, having to follow all the rules and, you know, do everything correctly. And I had to face, I guess that, which was challenging. I'd rather blame the institution and like, you know, get cranky at that rather than look at my own stuff and work through that.

[00:20:20] Bronwyn: It is one of my most hated things, like in personal therapy. It's like when you wanna blame other people and other institutions and it's like you kind of go through all of that and then you come to the realization like, oh it's me.

[00:20:32] Caitlin: Exactly. I'm the problem.

[00:20:34] Bronwyn: Yeah. And then it's like that grief coming with that and it's like, I've tried so hard to blame everyone else.

[00:20:38] Caitlin: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's so true.

[00:20:41] Bronwyn: It really sucks. Yeah.

[00:20:43] Caitlin: It really sucks.

[00:20:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it sounds like, okay, you've got this creative work, which is the copywriting, and then you've got clinical work. How, how did you work out how the two can coexist?

[00:20:56] Caitlin: I think when I realized, like my whole problem with the, the institution and like the whole thing once, once that lifted and I went back and did therapy again, it was like amazing. It was so different. Like I felt so comfortable and all of the amazing things that I was. Uh, learning about, I guess about myself, like the confidence that I had in myself from my copywriting was all of a sudden like transferring into my clinical work.

Like I just, yeah, it was really cool. Yeah, 'cause I would often be quite cautious or like, you know, not wanting to upset things and not like, you know, say what I was thinking in therapy for fear of like not being perfect. Um, whereas when I was able to, yeah, like when, when the transition happened, I was, yeah, just able to be a bit more of myself and that helped. Like my patients seemed to like have stay longer and seem to be getting better, and I just didn't have that exhaustion at the end of the day. Like I would have a whole caseload... It's like a whole day's worth of patience. And I'd come home and I'd be okay. I wouldn't be dead or wiped out. And it was just such a stark difference from before. So I must've been holding so much and trying to like, push down so much before. Um, so yeah, and it was so quick. I was there so surprised how quick it, it lifted.

[00:22:25] Bronwyn: I wonder if the imposter syndrome was carrying through here. Like you felt that you didn't have much confidence, and when you did copywriting it was like, oh, I am good at something and I can be good at something, and whether that helped your confidence, like was something like that happening or would you describe it differently?

[00:22:40] Caitlin: Yeah. No, I think so like that ability to do something that's like totally, it's so like creative industry that's so different to what I've been trained in and I had great results and I was able to help people in like a beautiful, creative way. And it felt like such a, a nice thing to be able to have like some of the transferrable skills from therapy and into like the copywriting. Um, but yeah, no, that definitely helped.

And the self-efficacy and I think, yeah, and it also just reminds me of my master's research where it was like on art therapy and, um, burnout, like a art therapy intervention for burnout, um, for psychologists. And yeah, the main finding was that people self-efficacy increased with doing like the creative work. So I think yeah, definitely onto something there.

[00:23:29] Bronwyn: That is really interesting. Yeah. It's like, you know, sometimes in therapy when we're working with clients, it is hard to feel effective. Like sometimes, you know, progress is incremental or peoples take a step back and it's hard to see, them moving forward. And it can be different when you go into a creative industry and like you said, like you were able to see quite clearly that you were helping other people.

[00:23:51] Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, that's such a good point that with therapy it, yeah, it... It can be a slow, slow burn sometimes. And it's hard to sit there in that like, ugh, it it like that. Yeah. Feeling that you're not effective. But definitely in like the creative work, it's like, yeah, people and people are like, yeah, it's great. And like they're giving you testimonials and all these like, beautiful feedback. Whereas like, we, we can't do have that in psychology. Like...

[00:24:17] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:18] Caitlin: So even just on that like superficial like, yeah, was nice to have that bit of validation.

[00:24:24] Bronwyn: No. Totally. And I guess something else that I wanted to pick up on, because I think listeners would be interested in it, is how, you mentioned close to the start that you had a lot of imposter syndrome when you were in Masters, and I just wondered, is that something you still feel or is that in some way resolved?

[00:24:43] Caitlin: Hmm. It is resolved a lot, definitely, like since working out that I can, like finding psycho-dynamic therapy and finding, uh, yeah, therapy that suits my personality and how I am naturally and not having to fight against like my natural traits, um, definitely has helped.

But no, I definitely feel imposter syndrome a lot all the time, but like, it's not at a level that it's impacting me, if that makes sense. Like it, it can kind of sit there and it's, it's just something that's there. It's not necessarily something that's I'm controlled by, if

[00:25:25] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And that's, and that's good to hear because I think a lot of like, I think like anything, imposter syndrome can sit on a scale and it's like you can have a little bit of it or a lot of it to the point where it's quite impairing. So it kind of just... It's just kind of sitting beside you, but it's not interfering, I guess.

[00:25:42] Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah, definitely. But if it does flare up sometimes, I think it's always, yeah. I find it interesting to work out why that is. Like if maybe it's something to do with the the patient that I'm sitting with, or maybe it's like a new presentation or maybe, yeah, there's something that I'm just not doing that's like aligned with how I wanna be as a therapist.

I think that was also a big thing with particularly a master's when I felt like an imposter. I kind of, I, I, on some level, I kind of was because I was pretending to be this like type of therapist. So it gave important data, um, about the situation.

[00:26:23] Bronwyn: Yeah. And yeah, I think that's a really great way of looking about it. I mean, like all feelings really. They give us lots of useful information about ourselves and what's happening for us.

[00:26:32] Caitlin: Yeah, definitely.

[00:26:34] Bronwyn: Hmm. I'm wondering what your work looks like now. So could you just give us a rundown, like how much time do you spend copywriting, in clinical work, and what does your clinical work look like now?

[00:26:46] Caitlin: Yeah. So, um, I, at one stage, like I was saying, it was mainly the copywriting, but now it's mostly, yeah, therapy. So I would say like 80% therapy and then the 20% copywriting. I just do a few like jobs occasionally. Yeah. And then in terms of the clinical work, it's just our one-on-one, you know, face-to-face individual therapy and I do a little bit of telehealth as well.

[00:27:13] Bronwyn: Okay. And is your, uh, I guess, favorite approach, uh, psychodynamic psychotherapy. And do you have like a, a favorite or niche kind of client that you see?

[00:27:24] Caitlin: I was working a lot with people like, yeah, people, I guess people a little bit like me, like burnt out, um, professionals. Um, but lately I've been working with a lot of people who are, I guess like going through big changes in their life, the transitions, that kind of thing, which I love working with. Because I was actually talking about this with, um, someone recently that I sometimes do find working people who are burnt out, it's quite confronting and I've gotta like, manage a lot of, I think, you know, just in general we do. Like, I don't think it's a only a, well, I hope it's not an only a me thing when I work with someone who's burnt out like -

[00:28:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. No.

[00:28:08] Caitlin: That, it like, brings up a lot. It's like, oh, I don't wanna, I'd be reminded of what burnout's like again, but.

[00:28:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, it can hit a bit close to home. Totally.

[00:28:17] Caitlin: For sure. Yeah, for sure.

[00:28:19] Bronwyn: And I guess like, you know, having faced that period where you were considering walking away from clinical work, have you got any new perspectives on working clinically? Like, has anything been reinvigorated or is there a new way of working... is your approach different?

[00:28:37] Caitlin: I think I'm definitely a lot more kinder to myself like, like a proper compassion. I think before I, when I tried to be compassionate, I wasn't necessarily compassionate, but now I'm a lot better with myself and realizing that I can't fix people in like 10 sessions and that my job really isn't to fix people it's to like sit there and, you know, um, help them bear what's going on in their lives. And I think just that realization that, you know, people come to us and they're going through a lot, but it's not necessarily possible or up to us to be able to, you know, to be able to work on everything in such a, a small amount of time. Definitely taking the pressure off for sure.

Not feeling like the whole weight of everything is on my shoulders. Uh, because yeah, it's definitely not, I'm only human or even maybe like accepting my humanity and like allowing that to be in the room a little bit more like being me a bit more like within your limits, but still being a bit more okay with that. Whereas before, I think, if someone knew a little tiny bit information about me, I'd like freeze up and be like, oh, oh my gosh. But now I, it's like, okay. And I think maybe even living rurally has helped a bit with that because yeah, people know everything about everything in a small town, so...

[00:30:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, like maybe that's a, a interesting place to go to actually, because earlier we were talking about, I guess this kind of strict professionalism that we are taught and to have really, psychologist voice, clothing, everything you know, you have to have , and you feeling a little bit outside of that.

How would you define the kind of professionalism that you bring in? Like, do you allow yourself to be happy or like show excitement for a client or like, you know, how do you allow yourself to be yourself in therapy?

[00:30:40] Caitlin: Yeah, it's um, something that I've learned recently who like been allowed myself to do more is yeah, like show my real expressions. Like when someone tells me a story, just be like, show them my shock or my horror or like, you know, my sadness or something like that because I think it must be really weird, like a, not a bizarre experience, but a strange thing if, you know clients are saying this horrible thing and like the psychologist is just like kind of got a blank face on or like trying to look... who knows uh, stern

Well, that's just my version of it, but I want to be someone who models, I guess, models that humanity and allows that in. Like, well, I'm not saying that I'm like cry already thing like that with my patients, but yeah, just allowing me to be a bit more human potentially.

[00:31:31] Bronwyn: And what strategies or practices really help you maintain your mental health and I guess prevent burnout to the place that it was before?

[00:31:41] Caitlin: Yeah, so definitely having, continuing with like therapy and supervision, like I think this is, maybe the support is the most important thing. And so I actually, yeah, on that topic realized at one stage last year, I had this realization that the only people who I were really talking to and socializing with at one stage was pretty much like, yeah, my therapist and my supervisor, like clinical supervisor that was like, yeah, and of course, my husband, but, and I just had this feeling like, oh my gosh, this is really not healthy. It's not okay for this to be that way.

And so I got a bit more involved in like social activities and things like that, but I think that probably potentially even contributed in some level to, yeah, being so isolated and maybe contributed to the burnout.

[00:32:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, Yeah, no, I, I feel that I had a similar realization like a year or so, probably like two years ago, and I was like, crap, the only people I'm seeing throughout the week are like, yes, my partner, but supervisor, therapist, and my clients. And I was like, ah, that's probably not good. Um, so then I joined a coffee club and I was like, okay, I just gotta like socialize with these people who are not, who are not psychologists, who are not clients.

[00:32:56] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:32:57] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:32:58] Caitlin: So, yeah, it's so true. Like, ugh. Just having psychology, like the whole world of psychology, which comes back to, like you're saying in the start, like what's a nons psychology passion is like, oh?!

[00:33:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes it's So hard. 'cause yeah, sometimes the whole like selves are defined by it.

[00:33:17] Caitlin: Yeah, I think that's also something that I found really helpful is to think about my own professional identity and what that looked like. And then somehow separating that. I don't even know about separating it, but it's something to do with like professional identity and what that looks like rather than maybe a being based on this image of a psychologist that I was taught at uni or like that I'd somehow internalized. It's like, well, no, who am I? Like, Caitlin, the psychologist rather than psychologist, Caitlin, I think, is something.

[00:33:49] Bronwyn: And I think that's, it's quite hard to work out. You know, I wonder if it even comes a fear of being judged, because when I think of that I'm like, oh, like, here's what professors and lecturers are telling me I should be and look like, and act like, who am I to be like, oh, I wanna deviate from that a bit. Um, you know, like little or me, um, I should just do what they're telling me to do.

[00:34:14] Caitlin: Yeah. That's it. I should, yeah, conform and follow the rules and yeah, not step out of line. Not step out of the box.

[00:34:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, no. So it's really hard, I think, to figure out your professional identity and who you are and who you wanna be. So well done you for having a look at that.

[00:34:29] Caitlin: Thank you.

[00:34:30] Bronwyn: Looking ahead, where do you see your career and I guess your passions taking you in the next few years?

[00:34:36] Caitlin: Yeah, talking to my therapist yesterday and I was like, you know what? I think I potentially have an idea about maybe doing a PhD, but I don't, yeah, maybe sometime. I'm giving myself a year to think about it and like my motives and make sure I'm not doing it out of like uh, feeling that I need to be achieving something, 'cause I think for me particularly, I've almost been indoctrinated into that, yeah, sense of achievement, like I've gotta have... pursue the next thing rather than being okay with, you know, what I'm doing now.

But at the same time, I, I do believe, so it comes back to the passion thing about like psychologists being able to be more human and like pursue things outside of psychology and that like be normalized and like, I'm so definitely, so passionate about that and, and like, I loved my master's thesis, which was in that realm. Potentially... maybe if I can do it on the topic I want, because I know that it's PhD It's not necessarily like what you wanna do it on. But it's like, yeah, just a little seed at the moment of an idea. I don't know if it will, yeah, bloom or what, but that's where I'm thinking, um, at the moment.

[00:35:59] Bronwyn: That's really cool. Just like, just 'cause I've done a PhD. If you are doing it because you want a sense of achievement, you will not get that for at least four years. So just FYI, yeah, like it, it is hard and grueling and um, every hurdle is definitely felt. And you'll be told like, yep, you know, you thought you were good in some areas, but you might not be.

[00:36:22] Caitlin: -you- so confronting.

[00:36:25] Bronwyn: It is confronting. So definitely... yeah. If anybody said to me they're doing a PhD to get a sense of achievement, I'd be like, no way, man.

[00:36:31] Caitlin: No way. No it's not.

[00:36:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's a grueling intellectual exercise. But like, but you know, obviously seek out other opinions because I've done an episode on PhDs and like I did it with my partner who's done a PhD. I had a difficult PhD experience and he had a great PhD experience. Um, so it's always good to hear like from the other end as well. 

[00:36:51] Caitlin: None of my friends have done PhDs, but my husband's friends have done PhDs and yeah, they've had some horror stories as well and my husband was like kind of, I think a bit worried about it. I was telling him and he is like, face was a bit kind of shocked.

[00:37:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:37:04] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:37:05] Bronwyn: No, some people do have great experiences. The key is a, a good supervisor and a topic you're passionate about and like, and that the supervisor is passionate about as well. And if you wanna do it in arts and creativity, there are lots of people who are really into that.

[00:37:17] Caitlin: That's good to know. I'll have to...

[00:37:19] Bronwyn: yeah. I think you could do it. Mm mm But I That's really cool that you're thinking that. So I guess I just wanted to get at some reflections. Is there anything that you wish that you knew when you started out that would be helpful for early career psychs listening to hear?

[00:37:36] Caitlin: One of the, like the first things that kind of comes to mind was.... my, something that my, um, supervisor said, which was, you can't do good therapy if you are not comfortable as a therapist. And that's always stuck with me, 'cause there's been so many jobs that I've had where I haven't felt comfortable. And I mean even from like a basic level of like the chair not being comfy, but like the room doing therapy next to the bedside in like a six, you know, six bed, you know, ward or something like that. And like just the realization that it's really difficult to do our work in envi- certain environments and that you've gotta be really comfy and not coming at it from a place of maybe self-sacrificing.

And I think, yeah, a little bit of like what we've been talking about. Like it's okay to spend a bit of time exploring, yeah, like your professional identity and, and it is okay to be a human and you've gotta work out what that looks like for you. Like it can't come from someone else 'cause I think then it'll always be that like bit of conflict there.

[00:38:40] Bronwyn: I think that last one is really important, like that it can't come from someone else necessarily. I remember when I was a provisional psych and there was, uh, I guess one of my colleagues, I really admired the way that she did therapy and I would literally try and copy her. So if I heard a good phrase that she said, I was like, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna say that in another group.

And like, it always fell flat. And I was like, why isn't this working? And it's because I'm not her. Like, you know, I don't have everything that she had. Um, 'cause I wasn't her. And so I had to be like, okay, well what's a more me thing? Um, and yeah, I just think that that rung really true for me. It's like you just can't copy other people. You just have to be yourself, which is devastating, um, but but also great.

[00:39:27] Caitlin: It's, and it's just like a bit sad as well, like that's such like a cliche, but it's-

[00:39:33] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:39:33] Caitlin: -true as well.

[00:39:34] Bronwyn: Yeah. It is. It's, it's, yeah. It sounds so cliche, but it, yeah, it's just like, be yourself. Like, but it it is -

[00:39:41] Caitlin: -it is, it is, actually true. So so true.

[00:39:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:46] Caitlin: -things a lot easier.

[00:39:48] Bronwyn: And is there anything else that you hope listeners will take away from our conversation today or from your story?

[00:39:53] Caitlin: That like you don't have to have everything figured out and it's okay . But you don't have to be in love with something all the time and maybe even it's okay to give up sometimes. Not that I gave up, but I was almost there. I think I was almost there, but maybe if I hadn't have worked it out and I did try something different, that would've been okay as well. Like it's not necessarily a failure.

[00:40:17] Bronwyn: I've heard some stories from people about them leaving the profession, and that's something that they needed to grapple with. Like, is this a failure? And I've spoken with them about how it's not a failure. Many people change careers or try to do different things, and the skills that we have are so transferable and can be used in so many other contexts that. I guess like making a decision about changing, like it'd just be difficult to say that's a failure. Like unless the expectation was that we should stay in this career, this single career for the rest of our lives. Which just sounds ridiculous.

[00:40:52] Caitlin: It is. Yeah, definitely based on the fact that so many people have a huge amount of careers over their lifetime. But there is something about psychology that it feels like it, it's a life sentence, like that's a bit of an extreme thing, but on some level.

[00:41:07] Bronwyn: I, I guess like it's something that you could do for the rest of your life, but just because you can do it doesn't mean that like you, you have to, you know?

[00:41:15] Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:41:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. You do have choice. Well, Caitlin, I wanted to give some space so that you could tell listeners where to find you, because I know you're doing a few things, like you've got podcast and you've got a group for folks who have creative hustles. Could you just tell us a bit about those?

[00:41:33] Caitlin: Yeah, definitely. So I'm, um, yes, got a podcast that's soon to be released, um, in August, which is super exciting, called Healers with Hustles, and it's all about, yeah, interviewing and speaking with, um, health professionals who have nonclinical or creative Yeah. Careers alongside their, um, traditional jobs. And it's all about really normalizing health professionals having, yeah, side gigs or side work that's a little bit different from what the typical, um, idea of the profession is.

And so then, yeah, I have a Facebook group as well, which is Healers with Hustles. Um, and you can find me on Instagram as well with my, um, my copywriting. It's just bell copy co. Um, and I have a Instagram for my, psychology business as well, but I don't really update it that much. So maybe you can follow it if you want, but it's not, yeah, it's not...

[00:42:29] Bronwyn: I'll pop, I'll pop all the links in the show notes. I think it's awesome, um, what you are doing. Um, yeah, and just like your mission of trying to normalize, like doing other things and just tapping into that creative aspect of ourselves.

[00:42:45] Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah, it's very exciting. I feel like it's. Yeah, who knows what will happen. It's, I just wanna make it a bit easier for people.

[00:42:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. Well, Caitlin, it has been such a pleasure to have you on today, and thank you so much for sharing your story and just, I guess, yeah, the, the vulnerable parts and some of the difficulties and conflicts that you had, I think that will really help listeners who are going through the same thing, and yet I don't think you'll be alone with a lot of the conflicts that you did have.

[00:43:14] Caitlin: That's good. Thank you so much for having me on. I've loved, loved this conversation and yeah, I really excited to be a part of it. 'cause I, I love what you are doing. It's something that I, yeah. I think would've really, really benefited me back when I was, yeah, doing Masters and hearing, hearing you talk about all of this stuff.

[00:43:32] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's awesome.

Well, thanks again, Caitlin and listeners, that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one, and catch you next time.