Bringing joy and play back into your work day (with Rebecca Black)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology . I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about joy in work of being a psychologist. This is the second in our two part series on this, and I'm really delighted today to introduce our return guest, Rebecca Black.

Hi, Rebecca.

[00:00:25] Rebecca: Hello, lovely to be back.

[00:00:27] Bronwyn: It's so lovely to have you back on and listeners, Rebecca will be talking to us about how she became focused on joy in work, the importance of central nervous system regulation for sustainability. We'll also be talking about some of those quite common therapist schemas, such as self sacrifice and unrelenting standards. And I'll be asking Rebecca about how she maintains joy and especially in the face of hopelessness.

So Rebecca, could you please remind listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:01:06] Rebecca: Absolutely. I can. I love that you're asking about non psychology passions. That's very cool. Although psych is also a passion. Um, so yes, I am Rebecca Black. I am a clinical psychologist and a coach. And while I do a few things, I predominantly work with, uh, therapists who, uh, Looking to create a sustainable life and a sustainable career.

So that's my jam and I do that because I've experienced my own chronic illness and had a whole many many years of recovery from that and that helped me learn a lot of really important tools for having a sustainable life.

But, Outside of all of that, uh, my favourite things to do. I, so I really like to be in nature and hiking is kind of my jam after not being able to do exercise and things like that. I love being out in nature and snuggling my greyhound.

[00:02:00] Bronwyn: So cute.

[00:02:01] Rebecca: Oh, he is.

[00:02:03] Bronwyn: How old is he?

[00:02:05] Rebecca: Oh gosh, he turns 13 in about a month.

[00:02:07] Bronwyn: Oh, little senior greyhound, so cute.

[00:02:10] Rebecca: Old, super old.

[00:02:11] Bronwyn: So adorable. And I'm so glad that you're able to enjoy nature as well. That's so important. It must be so lovely for you after a period of not being able to, to then go out and enjoy it.

[00:02:21] Rebecca: Yes, I'm so grateful every single time I go out there. It's just so beautiful and nourishing and very aligned for me.

[00:02:27] Bronwyn: Oh, awesome. Well, it's so lovely to have you back on, Rebecca. And as well, as you were talking, I was thinking that I love that you focus on sustainability, not only for because of your own personal journey, but it sounds like that this was an observation that you had that was needed in our profession. Is that right?

[00:02:44] Rebecca: Definitely. Yes, we, we know that burnout is really, really high in our profession, unfortunately. Um, and even if people aren't at the area of burnout or as far down that scale, often people are still really fatigued and exhausted and, um, generally struggling with, with working and in our field, there is, I guess, a bit of acceptance that that's just how, how it is. That's just how being a therapist is.

And so I'm really passionate about breaking that belief and starting to show people that actually therapy can look like something that is fun and joyful and energizing and invigorating and really fulfilling in our lives.

[00:03:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, as it should be.

[00:03:25] Rebecca: Yes.

[00:03:26] Bronwyn: I'm interested to know, how did you come to that perspective? Because as you said, you had some, um, significant health challenges and that must've been an unpleasant space to say the least, but I'm curious to know how that was for you and then how you became focused on trying to find joy and fun in work.

[00:03:46] Rebecca: Yeah, so I think while it was an incredibly hard time, so for the listeners who don't know, I had chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, have them no more. Um, but they were very impactful in my life and while they were incredibly hard, they've also been the biggest blessing in my life. And that's because I guess when you're so unwell that Um, I think that life kind of revolves around being on the couch and trying to manage what you can manage, but having to rest majority of the time. Uh, you kind of lose a lot of joy.

So a lot of the things, when I was really unwell, a lot of the things that I loved that brought me a lot of joy. So I'm from the country, so I grew up playing netball. Um, I had to let go of things like that that I really, really enjoyed. Um, and with my body not being able to come along on the journey with me for the things that I found joy for, I really had to start to look for what, what can I do when I'm just laying on the couch and unable to move? What can I do that actually lights me up? And it took me many years to, to get to that space.

But as I was, Studying, um, and moving into becoming a clinician. It meant that that was really on my radar, that it was something that was really, really important for me to make sure was there, because if I was going to be using my energy in some way, shape or form that I had such, you know, a limit of, I wanted to be making sure that it was something that was bringing joy to my life and bringing some kind of nourishment.

So I can even think of, when I was interviewing for my very first position and holding a joy in mind in that, and the two practice owners that were interviewing me, I just remember they were laughing so much. They were like nudging each other, uh, being really silly, making jokes with each other. And I can remember I had quite a high critic at that point. So I, Came out of the interview and went and had a cry and ate some subway cookies to help myself feel better because I thought I didn't get the job.

But for me, seeing that I knew that was the type of workplace I needed to be in. I needed to be in a space where when we're doing this heavy work, because this work can be so heavy and so serious, understandably, I knew I needed that balance of to have a joke with, to nudge, to be silly with. To make sure that my nervous system was being cared for in that way while also doing this job, which is also really important, but sometimes hard and serious.

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: yeah. No, I think that's a really clear journey. So it's like when you're in the depths of chronic fatigue and fibro, you, it doesn't sound like you had much joy in work.

[00:06:32] Rebecca: No, well, I was in the beginning of that I was studying and there was no joy in that because unrelenting standards, all of that jazz, it was very, it was just achievement oriented, orientated. And so there was a lot of, focus on just getting my university done and the rest of my life was resting so I could get university done.

Um, and even placements were the same. So placements were focused on, uh, I've just got to go do my clients, like see all my clients, do my work, do what I needed to, and then come home and do nothing to catch up on myself, which just wasn't a very nourishing way of living.

[00:07:08] Bronwyn: It doesn't sound like it was your vision for where you wanted your life to be.

[00:07:13] Rebecca: No, not at all. Not at all.

[00:07:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it wasn't that seeking joy was optional for you. It sounds like it was necessary. Like if I'm going to do this career, which is so hard, I need to make sure that I am seeking out ways to be joyful.

[00:07:31] Rebecca: Yes, absolutely. And the more I delved into trying to heal myself and then eventually shifted that to working with therapists as well, the clearer and clearer it became that joy is a critical part of that, that we need to be able to nourish our nervous system. You know, there's breathing and relaxation and all those things that are wildly important for our body to be nourished, but joy is a huge part of that. You can't be, you know, running away from that tiger and experiencing joy. You're not dancing while you're running away from that.

[00:08:02] Bronwyn: You're not.

[00:08:03] Rebecca: You know, so it's a beautiful way to communicate to our body safety. To be in that beautiful, joyful space. Um, and so it, it has become a really critical part of the work that I do with people, um, therapists and not therapists are really important part.

Um, and particularly, I guess, when we're thinking about the therapists that I work with and myself on my own journey, we've often got those schemers, unrelenting standards, self sacrifice, which really interfere with joy.

If we think about unrelenting standards, like I said, I was experiencing at uni, you know, we're focused on the outcome. We're focused on performance. We're rushing around. We've got that to do list that we just tick and tick and tick and tick. We're not really actually taking time to care for joy. You don't see on people's to do list, you know, I've got to get that GP letter done. I've got to do this, that, and this joyful activity. We don't see that or rest.

[00:09:02] Bronwyn: According to like the, the unrelenting standard critic, those things are a waste of time that could be used towards being productive and you are lazy and failing if you are doing those things. Yes. This is also familiar to me.

[00:09:18] Rebecca: Yes.

[00:09:18] Bronwyn: But that's what the critic is. That's what it's agenda is. It's like, yeah, if you're not constantly being productive or doing things and ticking off those lists, then yeah, you, what are you even doing with your life? Yeah.

[00:09:29] Rebecca: Yeah. You're, you're not worthwhile. Right? You're not good enough. Um, and so we get caught in that, and there's no space for joy. There's no space for joy in our life. Um, and so there's that side, but there's also the self-sacrifice side where we, prioritise everybody else's needs above our own. And usually as therapists, we've been doing that for a very, very long time. We've done that since we were very, very little.

But what that means is that we haven't learnt what we like and what brings us joy. We've been busy doing what brings everybody else joy. And maybe some of those things have been what is joyful for us, but a lot of the times we haven't actually tapped into our own needs for joy and what actually lights us up in that space.

So sometimes the work that we do, and I certainly had to do this for myself, is about let's just explore that. Like, let's have a joy adventure. Let's try some different things. You might hate some of those things and that's okay. Like then we know, but we might find some things that are really beautiful and nourishing for you.

Like really recently I went to my brother's house who recently got a dart board and I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that that's something that I would love. Turns out I really love darts.

[00:10:46] Bronwyn: Wow. That's so cool.

[00:10:48] Rebecca: know now we're getting a dart board. How bizarre.

[00:10:51] Bronwyn: That is, that is so cool.

[00:10:53] Rebecca: Yes. But if we don't try new things and have, have a go and see what it feels like in our body. then we don't know and if we've had a lifetime of not knowing this is part of the pathway forward, it's having a play.

[00:11:06] Bronwyn: And we might think that that's normal if we haven't had, that, that experience or exposure to finding joy in our life, right?

[00:11:15] Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. Just feels like the norm.

[00:11:17] Bronwyn: Yeah. And maybe you can tell us, Rebecca, what have you observed in yourself and in clinicians when they don't have joy? Like how does it impact their central nervous system?

[00:11:28] Rebecca: Often when we don't have that joy, we're in more of that, I guess that's serious, stressful... our nervous system is tense and tight and struggling. It's often more in that fight or flight response. Right. Um, and so... we often see when, when we engage in something joyful, when I'm in a session or just myself, when we do something particularly joyful, I really enjoy observing the body relax.

You just see suddenly the shoulders move down. The head changes it's position. Smiles come. And the tone of voice changes. And just those simple things that we observe all the time as therapists can be really beautiful to just watch and notice and notice in our own self, because those things are, again, the things that communicate safety to our nervous system. And if we're communicating that beautiful safety to our nervous system, then we're going into that rest and digest space, the healing space. And that's where we want to be for sustainability.

You will absolutely go into the fight or flight response from time to time, because we're designed to, and that's important. And we need to step back from the road when the bus is coming.

[00:12:35] Bronwyn: 100%.

[00:12:37] Rebecca: We need that, but it gives a break in that life where we are unfortunately primed to be in that fight or flight response more and more and more often.

[00:12:47] Bronwyn: I mean, if we're constantly in fight or flight... the way I think about it impacting in the room is that if I'm so geared towards detecting threat in my environment, how am I going to be present with my clients and listening to them and attuning to them as well as I, as well as I want to.

[00:13:04] Rebecca: There's this sense that when, when we become an adult, you have to stop kidding around, right? There's, there's yes. Stop kidding around. Like be serious. Be an adult. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Act your age. I'm like, great. Mine's about 12 because, because I'm so playful and I'm so joyful. And I really think our society in general does us a disservice by teaching us to stop having these playful, joyful moments.

And. Unfortunately, as a society and as a profession, we are a bit more serious. And so being able to model in your sessions as a therapist to clients that are in front of you, being a little playful, having a little bit of joy, can be so powerful to let them connect with that inner child that's been boxed away because we're suddenly an adult.

[00:13:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I completely agree. I love play. Um, I was actually thinking of doing research on it a few years ago cause I just thought it was so integral to being an adult and loving play. And it just opens up... I link it to creativity. I just, I love play. It's joyful. It's fun. It's creative. It unlocks that part of yourself.

And I agree. Like if you've got clients who also have unrelenting standards, bringing joy into the therapy room is such a great way to, to activate. That part of them that has been suppressed.

[00:14:23] Rebecca: Absolutely, and it doesn't have to be, like, we're going out to play a specific game right now. Anything really obvious, because often that can be too much for people's nervous system in the beginning. But it might just be playful comments here and there. It might just be playful body gestures to begin with. Um, I've actually got, um, I wonder if I can grab it right now. I've got one of these. I don't even know what to call them. Like a party whistle.

[00:14:47] Bronwyn: Oh, cool. Oh, I love those. That's fun.

[00:14:50] Rebecca: I literally, that's why it's on my desk right now. Sometimes when we're celebrating things in session, I'll, I'll pull something like that out. Just again, to be a bit childlike, to be a bit silly, to be a bit playful, but just a small tiny moment of it so that people can open up to that part of themselves.

[00:15:05] Bronwyn: I think that's really wonderful. And yeah, such a great therapeutic thing to bring to our clients, but also to ourselves really. So do you use that with your own like clients as well when you work with therapists?

[00:15:17] Rebecca: I do. I do often get like a good nod of shame or a little bit of embarrassment, but it opens the door to it. And then they'll often say things like, I'm going to bring that into my sessions or that I'm going to get one of those to use for myself to celebrate myself or to bring some joy in. And that's, that's exactly why I do it so that we can start spreading that joy.

[00:15:37] Bronwyn: No, I think it's amazing. I think I've got one as well in my little, um, bag of like goodies that I've got here as well. And I've got like bubbles and like all these like stretch things and everything. It's good fun.

And cause I only work with adults. And when people come into my therapy space, I have so many toys. I've got Legos and fidgets and a whole bag and box of toys and they're all for adults and people like, yeah. And I'm like, cause adults need them too.

[00:16:03] Rebecca: Yes! And who made the rule that we have to let go of those things just because we hit 18?

[00:16:09] Bronwyn: It's bizarre.

[00:16:10] Rebecca: It is. It is. I'm glad we're making changes.

[00:16:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too.

Okay. So, Rebecca, you do work with a lot of psychologists who may be experiencing burnout or would like to find more about sustainable practice. I wonder what it brings up in you when you come face to face with people who, you know, Are feeling hopeless or helpless or disillusioned or just feeling really crummy about their work? What does that bring up in you?

[00:16:40] Rebecca: It's a really interesting question because when I very first started my journey as a therapist, this was something that came up again and again and again in my supervision because when I was in the room with helplessness and hopelessness, especially because I was really unwell at that time too. I struggled with it. It was, it was something that was probably the hardest thing for me to cope with in session was holding space for that.

Um, but the beauty is, is that because I have been walking my talk for a long time now and have recovered from chronic illness and have broken the pattern of being unsustainable and burnout and things like that... for me, that's something that I hold onto when I'm sitting in front of someone who is this is where I have been who I can see... I see that the burnout is there and I can see the heaviness. I can go there with them now because I can hold just off to the side in my mind that it doesn't have to be like this and that there is a chance to change. And for me, that's, that's the most important part.

So this is why I always talk to therapists about doing their own work. If you're not doing your own work, then you can't hold that as easily in mind, I believe. You can't hold as easily in mind how transformative therapy can be or how transformative whatever journey you're taking people on can be having that own personal experience of it can be a really powerful thing to help hold onto while you're going through those moments of hopelessness in the therapy space.

[00:18:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. In your own experience, were there times when you did feel that sense of hopelessness?

[00:18:17] Rebecca: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I hadn't seen, and keep in mind, I worked with a lot of people who had chronic fatigue or had illnesses like that that were similar to my journey and there were times where I had to work very very hard to make sure that I wasn't bringing my experience into their experience and we had to kind of go through that process I guess together with a lot of supervision.

But but it it was it was a really hard thing to do but now because of the work that I've done, I'm able to hold that in mind really easily. It doesn't feel heavy for me anymore because I know there is a lightness at the end of the tunnel that can be

[00:18:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. So for you, it's like they may be experiencing a lot of helplessness, hopelessness, but through your own experiences, you know that there is always a possibility that things can be different.

[00:19:13] Rebecca: Absolutely. And, and now that I have helped lots of other people go through that, the process just feels really natural. And I, I, I know that people can get there, um, if that's where they want to go.

[00:19:23] Bronwyn: Hmm. So what would you, what would you say to someone who is listening to this episode and maybe they are experiencing hopelessness? Maybe they are like, I don't know if I can keep going. Like I feel so burnt out. What would you say to someone in that position?

[00:19:38] Rebecca: Come and talk to me.

[00:19:40] Bronwyn: We'll have,

[00:19:41] Rebecca: come talk to

[00:19:41] Bronwyn: have Rebecca's links in the show notes. Yeah.

[00:19:45] Rebecca: But, but also start small. You know, this is what I always talk about when I'm talking about sustainability. Start really small to bring some aspect in that's going to help you. Now that might be things like rest. It might be lessening your client load, but we're here talking about joy. So thinking about something tiny and joyful that you can bring into a day when things are really heavy, um, that might just give your nervous system a breather in that moment.

For me, when I was really unwell, I didn't have a huge amount of energy. Uh, one of the things that I did was I started to teach myself how to juggle and yeah, random, I know.

[00:20:25] Bronwyn: So cool.

[00:20:26] Rebecca: But now I can juggle. Um, And I had such limited energy that it would only be a few throws a day, but it was just fun to, to start that process and connect with that. So even the smallest little moment, how can you bring something like that in? Is it eating your most favorite food in the world and just noticing how that fills your body? Is it watching something really funny, um, on YouTube? Like what, what can you connect to that just gives you that little bit of lightness in amongst all of the heaviness you're experiencing?

[00:20:58] Bronwyn: I reckon that's beautiful. Can I share what my thing is?

[00:21:01] Rebecca: Oh, please do.

[00:21:02] Bronwyn: I really love dog videos and I really love funny dog videos as well. I particularly like funny dog videos when a dog has a big stick and then they can't get it through the door and then they have to work out how to get it through the door. That's one of my favorite themes.

I've seen...

[00:21:17] Rebecca: I love those.

[00:21:18] Bronwyn: those sorts of videos and then I also love watching when huskies set each other off with howling and I find that really funny as well.

[00:21:26] Rebecca: I actually love those. And FYI, you're going to get a lot of memes from me now. So lots of videos coming your way.

[00:21:33] Bronwyn: I'm so delighted. I like, I never get sick of them and they're so funny and they're like so joyful.

[00:21:38] Rebecca: Yes, absolutely. So like simple things like that. Look up dogs with big sticks videos. Perfect.

[00:21:46] Bronwyn: funny. And they try so hard and I love it when they succeed as well. And then I'm like, yes, yes, you did it. Yeah. Um,

[00:21:53] Rebecca: It's the best.

[00:21:54] Bronwyn: But you're right, it is starts small, like it doesn't have to be like huge, like I'm going to go on a seven day trip, you know, like it doesn't have to be huge things to bring joy, right?

[00:22:06] Rebecca: Absolutely, and our unrelenting standard schemer will try to tell us that it needs to be this giant, big thing that we're bringing in. And our job just is to notice that and come back to doing it in a small, gentle, easy way for ourselves.

[00:22:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. I'm wondering, do you have any other suggestions for say, uh, therapists during their work day? Like, is there any way that they could bring joy in their work environment or in between clients?

[00:22:31] Rebecca: Absolutely. There's so many different ways, and again, this kind of comes back to Knowing what lights you up, knowing the thing that brings joy for you and setting aside some time to actually do that in small amounts between clients.

So, um, one of the things that I do sometimes when I feel like I need a little bit of joy, I might go play with my dog cause I work from home. So that's something that gives me lots of excitement. Um, I might put on some music that brings me some joy and I might dance around and be silly with that. Um, You might connect with a colleague that you find particularly joyful and go be silly with them. It's just thinking about the thing that you really like and how can you incorporate that in a really small way into your day to day.

Um, and if you need some help with that, you could do that with a buddy at work. You could have like an accountability buddy that you do something together, um, in your breaks or in your lunch break. Anything like that, just to make sure that you're actually. doing the thing because thinking about it isn't quite, um, the same. Although saying that you could also close your eyes and just think of something joyful.

[00:23:42] Bronwyn: Oh, true. Okay.

[00:23:43] Rebecca: Yeah, just do like a little tiny five minute meditation. Close your eyes. Imagine that you're on that beach in Hawaii, rolling around on the sand, doing whatever it is that you enjoy and just connect with that feeling in your body. And that can be, again, another really simple, simple way that we can connect with that in our work day. Okay.

[00:24:01] Bronwyn: That's really beautiful. Could we speak to any listeners, critics that have just activated then and is like, why would I do these silly things? Like, you know, so and so shouldn't be doing this. They should be working. Like they could be doing, they could be reading an article between clients. Like, why is this so important?

[00:24:19] Rebecca: If we listen to our critic all the time and go along with that demanding nature, that is what's going to burn us out. And we have this beautiful choice there to decide whether we actually want to buy in to what society's taught us, to what our experience has taught us, to what unfortunately our degrees have taught us.

We have a chance not to buy into that and actually go, you know what? What's going to be best for me? What's going to help me feel more sustainable? And what's that going to mean for me? If I'm actually living this life where I'm bringing some joy in and having some happiness, what's that going to mean when I come home?

Am I going to be more connected to my partner, my family, my friends, my kids, whoever that is that we might want to be bringing our ourselves to? What's the flow on impact that's going to happen if I actually start turning in and caring for myself rather than listening to and following that critic? Like this is your moment.

This is your moment to start to break that pattern so that you don't have to be feeling the way that you're feeling now in your job and in your life.

[00:25:23] Bronwyn: I think that's really beautiful. Thank you for giving us that healthy adult message, Rebecca.

[00:25:28] Rebecca: You're most welcome.

[00:25:29] Bronwyn: I think, I think, and I think lots of early career psychologists need to hear that message because you're right. It is taught to us to an extent that we need to keep on pushing through and that to be a good therapist, we should be giving ourselves completely to our work.

But then you've seen. And I've seen this in myself as well. When we do that, when we follow that messaging, it does lead us to burnout. And you know, burnout's really serious. It's not a flippant thing. It's like, literally like, you know, your, your nervous system has burnt out. It's like, I can't do this anymore.

[00:26:03] Rebecca: Yeah. And burnout is one step away from a chronic illness. And we don't, we don't want to have that in our body.

[00:26:09] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:10] Rebecca: And unfortunately, if we think about how university is set up, so all of our studies, we, we often see that we are being given a huge workload, a workload that is far too big for us to maintain whilst we're also maintaining adult life.

So, you know, having to work perhaps to pay for where we're living or pay for the things that we need to pay for things that bring us joy. Um, we, We are put into a system that teaches us to respond by doing all of the things that are too demanding for us. And so we unfortunately have to reteach ourselves, relearn sustainability because it's just not taught to us in our university degrees.

[00:26:50] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And Rebecca, one thing I'm thinking about is that, Um, I love how I'm drawing on my own experiences here. Just like having, yeah, I had such like, you know, a high unrelenting standards critic that I've really had to give a good talking to, um, and allow me to do what's needed for sustainability.

But one thing I know that my critic would say is that, well, this is all well and good, but if I focus on being joyful, what about all the other stuff that is really making life hard for me. I should just be problem solving rather than focusing on joy. What would you say to that?

[00:27:30] Rebecca: That is a good question. And I'm going to use that word balance because it is all about balance. And I know there will be some people who are like, balance, does that even exist? I think balance is an ongoing thing that we have to kind of keep. So keep the scales moving up and down on keep focusing on throughout our lives.

But if you feel that there are lots of tasks on your task load, it's time to start to think about what, what can I do with those things so I can create some, some space and time for joy. So do I need to have a conversation With my practice manager, if my workload is too high, um, are there other things that I can maybe delegate, pass on to other people, um, that I can delete, that I can actually just get rid off and other things that I can delay.

So often I'll see a to do lists with the therapists I work with that might have, you know, five GP letters on them. I've got to get them all done today. And I'll say, do you? Or could they wait till next week? Or could could two of them get done this week and three of them get done at the end of the week or next week? You know, are they as urgent as perhaps that demanding part of ourselves is making them out to be?

So having, I guess, a bit of a think about that and then finding time, creating time, creating space and cultivating, I guess, a deliberate practice of joy in amongst that, because you will still have demands. We can't just live a total joyous life. There will still be things that, that will get in the way of doing that 24 seven. Um, but our job is to create that balance and make sure that we're living a way that aligns for our nervous system's needs.

[00:29:07] Bronwyn: The image that's coming to my mind is, is there like, you can't pour from an empty cup . And it's like we need that joy so that I can fill my cup up. Because if I don't do that, then I'm trying to problem solve and I've got nothing, I've got nothing in my cup.

[00:29:22] Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. Put your own oxygen mask on first, or I really like when, when you think about the question, I often talk about this when I'm doing webinars or things like that. I, I like the question of, if we keep doing this, how are we going to feel in a year's time? So if you keep listening to the critic, or if you keep, um, doing all of those tasks and not focusing on joy or nourishment, self care, how are you going to be in one year? How are you going to be in three years? How are you going to be in 10 years? And usually the answer is not so flash.

[00:29:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, and then it's like, that leads to the question, and is that the kind of life you want to lead as well?

[00:29:56] Rebecca: Exactly. And you can connect with values and all of those sorts of things.

[00:30:00] Bronwyn: And most people they don't want a life that's absent of joy. They actually want to take pleasure and enjoy in what they're doing and how they're living their life.

[00:30:10] Rebecca: Yes, and it's that switch from being used to prioritizing tasks because of the Unrelenting Standards Schema and that switch from prioritizing other people and their needs, switching into actually I am important and my needs are important and joy is one of my needs and it's okay for me to prioritize that.

[00:30:28] Bronwyn: Mmm, okay, I just had another question come off the back of that, which is, um, Okay. But won't I be a bad therapist, Rebecca? If

[00:30:36] Rebecca: Absolutely not. No, I'm not even going to let you finish the sentence.

[00:30:42] Bronwyn: Because I imagine that's the next barrier. It's like, but if Rebecca, if I'm prioritizing myself and, and I'm making sure that I'm doing all these good things for me, then, then won't I be a bad therapist?

[00:30:51] Rebecca: What if it makes you a really good therapist?

[00:30:53] Bronwyn: Oh, oh, I didn't consider that.

[00:30:56] Rebecca: What if you actually having your nervous system filled with joy, filled with care, filled with nourishment? What if that allows you to hold space for your clients more easily? What if that allows you to model particular things for your clients more easily? What if that's actually the key for you to be the therapist that you want to be, as opposed to the person who's burning out and exhausted and, and really struggling, um, to be there in front of your clients?

[00:31:23] Bronwyn: Sold! Yep.

[00:31:25] Rebecca: Okay, excellent.

[00:31:28] Bronwyn: Yes, I, I agree with that. I think we can be even, I think we can be even more aligned with the therapist that we want to be when we are taking care of ourselves. And it sounds like you agree with that as well.

[00:31:40] Rebecca: Absolutely. And, and I have heard stories, unfortunately, of, of people who have gone into see their clinician and can tell that their clinician is exhausted and they're deliberately wrapping up their sessions early so that therapists can get a rest or get a drink or, you know, we, we underestimate how perceptive the people are, are that are in front of us and, you know, being able to nourish yourself and, and model that and show that has such a beautiful, big impact that we, unfortunately, we're not, it's not written in textbooks, so we don't see it as being as important as it actually is. And that's not to say, like, it's okay if you're a burnt out therapist, that doesn't make you a bad therapist either. That just means you're part of this cycle and we've got a chance to change it.

[00:32:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's really important. I don't, I certainly want to, wouldn't want to tell my peers that they're bad therapists if they're burnt out. I mean, I've been there myself, that having been burnt out and you do the best you can and recognize that you're in burnout. And how can I make small steps to help myself, become clearer of this burnout and get out?

[00:32:43] Rebecca: Absolutely. And, and all of that insight and growth will just continue your growth as a therapist as well.

[00:32:49] Bronwyn: Yep. Rebecca, this has been such a great conversation. We've touched on a lot of things that are really important, I think, in joy and bringing joy into that, into your work and what it looks like when you don't have joy in your work. Can I just ask, are there any main takeaways from this conversation that you want to leave listeners with?

[00:33:08] Rebecca: Absolutely. I think my favorite thing to leave people with is always to start tuning in to yourself on the topics that you need. The topic today is joy. So starting to tune in with yourself. Are you getting much joy? If you're not, how can you bring more of that in?

And as we said earlier, just have a play. Just have a think about what you might find joyful, what you found joyful in your childhood, what other people around you who are similar to you find joyful and just have a play, have a go at those things and notice how it feels in your body and then see if you can add that into your day to day a little bit more because you deserve it. You deserve joy. We need joy. It's important.

[00:33:48] Bronwyn: Absolutely. I believe it is so important as well. And maybe you could just speak to this, which is a question that just popped up from that, which is like, but Rebecca, I need to be serious with clients. Like if I'm joking around, won't that be bad?

[00:34:03] Rebecca: No.

[00:34:05] Bronwyn: Cool.

[00:34:05] Rebecca: I think part of our job is to know our clients well, and that is what we do as clinicians, and we can feel into where to place joy and where to place playfulness. And there is certainly a time and place for it not to be there. And there is a time and a place for it to be very serious. right? Always, always.

But read the room, have a go. It's okay if you make a mistake. It's okay if you have a moment you can repair. What a beautiful moment in your therapy relationship to repair. If you make a mistake in that and have, have a bit of a play with it, it, it's okay. It's okay to bring a little bit of joy in.

[00:34:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I would 100 percent endorse that. I think the way that I started with bringing joy into my sessions was allowing myself to be excited for clients, um, and to show true, authentic excitement for my clients.

And then another thing that I would do was, I wasn't mean to myself, but I would just, um, uh, Just like kind of self deprecating, but I'd be like, I don't know where I was going with that question. Let me try again. And I would acknowledge that kind of stuff with my clients.

And I, and, and you know what, it was often when I was drawing things from clients as well, because I'm not a fantastic artist and I try and draw things, draw things for clients. And I'd be like, and this is why I'm a psychologist and not an artist, um, type things.

[00:35:29] Rebecca: I love that. I used to do

[00:35:30] Bronwyn: laugh together. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:35:37] Rebecca: tiger with big tusks. And we'd have a big giggle about that. My stick figure man, like it, it's really, really beautiful to, to bring a bit of that in, um, in those small ways, just in those little comments that you can make in this in session.

And I love that you mentioned excitement too. I definitely like that. Um, I, it's great with the authenticity because authenticity and joy at the same time. Yeah, beautifully tied together. Um, but being able to just express that big moment of excitement, joy, happiness, whatever comes up for your clients based on what's going on for them. That can be really healing for them to experience too, because if they haven't had that in their lifetime, we've got a little bit of a healing moment going on between you and the relationship when you're showing your joy, when you're showing your excitement, your playfulness, all of those things.

[00:36:25] Bronwyn: We do. Rebecca, thank you again so much for coming on. If listeners want to find out more about You or Get In where can they find you?

[00:36:34] Rebecca: They can jump on Instagram. So I am @sustainabletherapists. Um, also there on Facebook as well. Um, or if you want to contact me in more of a clinical space, um, then you can find me at nourish, heal and grow psychology.

[00:36:51] Bronwyn: Wonderful. And we will have all those links in the show notes and listeners, Rebecca is doing a lot of great work in this space. I think it's really wonderful and much needed. So thanks Rebecca for doing your work. And I'm so glad that you could share some of it with our listeners here today.

[00:37:05] Rebecca: Ah, Thank you so much. My work brings me joy.

[00:37:08] Bronwyn: And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode or any of our previous ones, please leave us a five star rating and review. It really helps new listeners find the podcast. And you can also share the episode with someone who you think would love it. Have a good one listeners. Catch you next time. Bye.