"You can define your own pathway": Coming to psychology from a corporate career (with Nick Gotsis)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins. Today, listeners, we have a fantastic listener story. Listener stories are where we talk about how a person came to be registered, what they've picked up along the way, what they've learned that would be helpful to you, the trials, the tribulations. The successes and joys. And here to help us out is our guest, Nick.

[00:00:37] Nick: Hi, Bronwyn. How are you going?

[00:00:38] Bronwyn: I'm well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. And Nick, could you just tell the listeners who you are and I'm doing this new thing, which I just told Nick about and I put him on the spot for it, but I was like, and can you tell us that your non psychology passion as well?

So... Who are you and your non psychology passion?

[00:00:57] Nick: Okay. Thanks, Bronwyn. First of all, thanks for having me because I listen to your podcast all the time and I, you know, I was telling you before I've learned so much as an early career psychologist. So thank you to you and everyone that's been on it.

Who am I? I work currently as an executive director of human resources and also as a clinical psychology registrar. And a little bit about me. It's been probably a later career journey in terms of entering the field of psychology and compared to maybe people who come through a traditional pathway, I think my story has probably been more about how I've come in at a later point in my life and what I've learned through that process.

What I do outside of psychology, well, it's a good question, but probably only since I finished my clinical master's, do I feel like I have a life outside of psychology?

[00:01:47] Bronwyn: That's quite normal, I feel.

[00:01:48] Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I reckon everyone feels that, that's listening but I'm learning now that there, it's important to have a life out of psychology.

So I do, uh, actively do fitness. I'm a fanatic of Barry's Bootcamp. I do Barry's Bootcamp three to four times a week, uh, with my partner, uh, and also like to do yoga as well. And sometimes that's fallen off in terms of that, but it's self care is something that I'm really practicing at the moment.

[00:02:14] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that's awesome. So is that like 6am circuit stuff or weightlifting?

[00:02:19] Nick: Yeah, yeah, kind of sprinting on a treadmill being yelled at and then jumping down onto the floor and it's a 5.45am class. So I'm one of those up at 5am people, uh, and get started in the day. Yeah, but it is something that I really enjoy.

[00:02:34] Bronwyn: My face is, uh, like disgust faced right now, but I'm very impressed and respectful of you.

[00:02:41] Nick: Yeah, yeah, it's not always easy, but yeah, my face doesn't look the best on those mornings.

[00:02:47] Bronwyn: Thanks so much for sharing with us. I appreciate it. And maybe we'll start there then, because one thing that sticks out for me is I hear, okay, we've got an executive director of HR. To me, when I think of clinical psychology, that's like opposite worlds. So I'm interested to know what prompted you to be like, okay, I'm going to go back to being a student. Like after being in a career, and I'm going to study Clin Psych.

[00:03:15] Nick: Yep. Look, I think, um, that's not how it , in terms of my initial starting point of entering psychology from a study through to being registered, I probably started with an idea and I ended where I ended up today because I probably fell in love with the whole field. But if I take it all the way back, uh, I worked in HR or have been working in HR for a good 20 years, and I'm not giving away my age. Um, I started when I was 10, um, but working in HR for a little while and actually in my undergrad, when I was straight out of university, I studied, studied behavioral science in my first year and I hated statistics. Like. Absolutely was like, I'm not doing this. This is not what I signed up for. So I transferred into business, which I don't know how that was any different, but

[00:04:06] Bronwyn: like business also has numbers. Oh,

[00:04:13] Nick: I think at that time, I became quite overwhelmed very quickly in that first year of psychology of what is this from, you know, the statistical needs. And back then, it was all manual. I say back then like I'm that old, but it was manual calculations. SPSS was a new thing and it was very different.

So, I gave up back then, and I say gave up, I just tried something different. If I take it really back to where I started and then realised statistics wasn't for me and went into business. I did my business, went into human resources, but I always had this thing through my career that I really would love to go back into psychology. But when, how, who's got time for that? So my career progressed. Pretty quickly worked overseas, worked internationally in HR, and then about eight years ago New Year's Eve, I made a resolution like we all do, and I said, I'm actually going to go back and I'm going to do psychology and do the three year sequence, which some people take a bachelor's, but I only had to do the graduate diploma for a three year sequence.

And I did that as a hobby, finished that, fell in love with it, met some amazing people. And then I was invited to do my honours, and then I thought, I've never done honours before, I wonder what that would be like. And I think that's where you start going, oh, this is actually becoming quite interesting now.

So, did my honours while I was working full time, and I should mention I was working full time while doing the grad dip, but then when I did my honours and I was lucky enough to be working, doing my honours at my grad zipping universities, which were flexible. So I did those at, um, UNE, which I think for me was amazing because they were flexible and got to be able to do residentials.

And then after 2020, when COVID hit I had the opportunity and some people were saying go down the NPP pathway, the Master of Professional Psychology. The 4 plus 2 was phasing out. Or some people were saying, go down to Clinical Masters, and I really wasn't sure. So, long story short, um, I was still working full time in my Executive Director role, and then decided to put an application in for Clinical Masters. And I, this sounds very crazy when I say it out loud. I was working full time while doing the Clinical Masters for the first couple of years.

[00:06:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. I was like, I like, I've got to stop you in a second, ask you about that, but, well, actually I'll just stop you now.

[00:06:30] Nick: High achiever, high standards? Yeah...

[00:06:32] Bronwyn: Oh, well, I'm just wondering, like, are you two people, like, have you got like a twin or something? Who's living the dual life? How is this possible? Just time management wise, but also like you learned so much, like in these courses, like how did, how did you manage that?

[00:06:50] Nick: Well, look, I didn't, um, because I think that what happened was when I got into the Clinical Masters in my first year I was, when I started that program, I did the coursework components. It's a really, in terms of immersing myself, I did it part time and focus on coursework and COVID hit.

So when I was in my head thinking, hey, I'll transition out of my corporate job and into psychology, the world changed and let's be honest, everyone was staying home. So what else was it to do? So I think it worked initially, but I think the clinical program, all the master's programs, they're demanding, um, MPP, MCP, whatever path you take and I made a commitment, let's just see what happens there, with maybe longer term when the placements all started, that I would transition out, which is what I did.

So at the start of this year, I actually stopped the whole part time, went full time, did my placements. But it was demanding and... look, your question's a good one. Do we sometimes overcommit? If you're going to do one thing, will you do it properly? I felt at some point I was trying to do too many things and I learnt that sometimes you've just got to say, I'm going to do this right now because it feels like that's where I need to be. But I had to figure out how because At a later stage in life, when you have mortgages and families and all that stuff, you can't just say, well, I'm not going to work.

[00:08:20] Bronwyn: Well, that's what I was thinking. I was like it's quite a luxury when you think about it to be like, okay, yeah, I'm going to stop working and then I will study full time. So even if that was a desire of yours, it like practically just financially, it would be very difficult for most people.

[00:08:38] Nick: Absolutely, and I think one of the key things I find, and as I've met people through psychology, is that when you decide, whatever, if it's psychology, whatever it is, when you decide at a different stage in your life to do a career change, because that's In effect, what I was doing your identity changes and suddenly I was working in a corporate job at an executive level, dealing with, you know, the kind of the peak of my career.

[00:09:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:09:04] Nick: And then suddenly on the other hand, sitting there and I feel like I'm doing clinical work at the moment, uh, is sitting there, you know, basically saying, I really want to be doing this and this is what I feel my purpose is and that's what my values are telling me to do but how do I do that because I still need to support myself and I think it's a real big challenge in our whole profession.

[00:09:24] Bronwyn: Yes, yeah, I would agree. So that's one thing I'm wondering about because like you say, you, you have been at the peak of your career. Like it's a leadership role and position, which sounds like it has a lot of responsibility. So I'm curious about what was your purpose or, or drive to pursue a clinical psychology pathway?

Like what was drawing you to this?

[00:09:48] Nick: Yeah, it's and I think when I started thinking about it people kept on saying to me why are you going down the organizational psychology

[00:09:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, I was thinking that.

[00:09:57] Nick: Most people do and they say you know you're working in corporate you know and there's obviously it would make more sense but I think for me I've always had a strong interest in mental health, the scientist practitioner model for me is so fascinating.

I love data and I love working one on one with individuals. And that's both from a, whether it was around their mental health, whether it was around life transitions, whether it was around career transitions. I felt quite privileged to be able to sit with people through that space. So for me, naturally, I went into that clinical setting and I was fascinated around human behavior, but also when people sometimes are at that period of distress in their life, you have this ability to help them. And that for me was just driving a need.

The second part I'll say is, when I initially went into going down the clinical pathway, I had two goals. And I lost sight of these, that they're coming back. Um, and my two goals were, one, I wanted to support the LGBTQI plus community. So I was very clear, like, that is what I'm doing. I'm a proud and out gay man. And I thought, how can I go do more ? So I thought that was one thing I wanted to support with a lived experience, but also... you know, be a, um, support the community in a different way.

And the second part is I have a strong interest in men's mental health and help seeking behaviors. So for me, I thought, how can I... Like, live my passion and my purpose, use science, and use human behavior, and it all just came together and it just felt right.

[00:11:43] Bronwyn: yeah, and I think that's what that was a gap I was I was thinking of for you, because when I think of HR, like, I'm not a HR expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like in that role, you would help others like they would come to you with dicey issues that they're facing and difficulties in the workplace and perhaps you'd be providing leadership and oversight. So I feel like you would be helping people in that role which might fulfill a bit of like desire if you wanted to help people. But then when I heard you say like your passion for the LGBTIQA plus community, it's like, oh yes, that's a very underserviced area in men's mental health as well. Very underserviced, much needed... um, that we need people in those areas. So was that like really, well, I guess when times got tough, like that was the thing that was keeping you through?

[00:12:28] Nick: Yeah, I think, and also the study, I really love learning. So, when, and I think most psychologists or people going through, it's not even psychologists, anyone studying psychology, because you don't necessarily... need to be registered, you can study it or be it in in academia. I just love the learning process of it, and that kept me through and the people I just kept on meeting... psychologists are very interesting people to meet because we all share this common purpose. I think most of us, at the end of the day... come from that same point of, we want to make a difference. And whether that's around policy, whether that's around working with people, individuals, we always come from that point of view... how do we make a difference?

On your point around HR, and that's an interesting point in itself, because I felt... before I came registered, that I had to give up HR. I was feeling like, Oh, I now have to go and become a clinical psychologist or whatever it is registered. And that's my purpose. And what I didn't realize was that it's actually not.

And this, this profession, you meet people who are doing health policy. So to your point, I've reframed my thinking because at the moment I'm a clinical psych registrar and part of my registrar program, and people are surprised at this, I do two things. One is I work in private practice and I'm currently working in your traditional clinical setting working with the community and the populations I just spoke about and more broadly. And the second part is I work in corporate, but I'm running mental health programs. I'm looking at psychosocial hazards. I'm looking at harm prevention around psychological injuries in the workplace from a clinical perspective and I never realized until I became registered thinking it's not that black or white when it comes, or linear, and you can be actually a clinical psychologist in many different roles not just in that private practice traditional setting or health setting.

[00:14:30] Bronwyn: Is that something you didn't think that you could do, like work in both corporate and private practice or were there people saying to you like, nah, there's no way you could do that?

[00:14:41] Nick: I think a bit of both. I think I had like many people when you go through the programs it feels like you either do your traditional academic setting, going through a PhD pathway and you do kind of the lecturing and the research and that component. Or you do org or you do clinical. It didn't feel to me at that time, like you could become a clinical psychologist and still work in that organizational setting. Like you have to go do organizational psychology.

And what I realized that it's really important when you're going through the program, you really have to look at the competencies and as you become registered and whether people go down that endorsement pathway of looking at the endorsements, um, whether it's clinical or the competencies of what are important, it's not the titles of a position.

And I learned that and was more open to saying, actually it talks about, as an example, cultural diversity is one of the competencies that you have to achieve both from provisional right through to clinical. That means so many different things in so many different contexts. And I think we have to think like that. Otherwise, what I think may happen is people think I must be a clinical in a health setting in a private practice room. I don't think it's that linear, that black and white.

[00:16:06] Bronwyn: I agree. I think a lot of people do think, say just the cultural competency, it's like, yeah, I need to learn cultural competency in this specific way, but we don't consider the different contexts that that competency can be used in the different ways that it can be used.

[00:16:25] Nick: A hundred percent. And I also think. I believe this could be controversial, but I'll say it anyway.

[00:16:32] Bronwyn: I love controversy...

[00:16:33] Nick: I know, I know, I'm like, you're like, what's he gonna say now? It probably isn't controversial, but you know...

[00:16:38] Bronwyn: I'm so excited.

[00:16:39] Nick: I believe that if the profession really thinks about the clinical setting, and I don't, I'm not talking about endorsement, clinical psychology, we should have more psychologists in the workplace doing the clinical application across a corporate setting. And we're seeing that by the way. There's a massive movement at the moment where we've got psychologists being invited into the workplace and that's general psychologists being asked to look at the workplaces and make decisions around how do we help individuals. Harm prevention. That's not necessarily organizational psychology. I think that's actually more generalist psychology.

So I think there should be a movement around introducing more psychs using their kind of like clinical application within workplace settings and I think we'll see more and more of that in the future.

[00:17:36] Bronwyn: I think we will, too. Um, I do feel like it's, it's already happening. There are so many consultants to like large organizations. Like I'm just thinking the mining sector here in WA where I am, but I know like Rio Tinto and Chevron, they have massive wellbeing programs and it's in their best interest to make sure that they're workforce has really high well being and psychologists are really well suited to being able to look at the research literature and be like, here's how we can foster that and so I reckon it will become bigger in the future as well.

Particularly, I think there was an updated... I'm going to say thing because I don't know what it is, so you probably know more than me. But I know there was this thing a few months ago and it was like workplaces have to look out more for psychosocial hazards in the workplace and I feel like it was legislated like in New South Wales or something. Is this ringing a bell?

[00:18:29] Nick: Oh, I love that. I love that you raised this. My favorite topic at the moment. You're absolutely right. So the code of practice around psychosocial hazards was implemented in one of the states as a code of practice. Um, and I really encourage all the listeners, if you really want to develop, see what's going on for organizations... I just think it's good for us as clinicians... when we have a client sitting in front of us and they're talking about what they're experiencing in the workplace, you have significant responsibilities on employers to ensure that they're removing psychosocial hazards. And what that looks like is identifying them. And there are, uh, approximately 8 to 10, I can't remember exactly the exact number, but they're the things like workload, exclusion, um, bullying.

Now, what that means is that we can rely on our research as psychologists providing support services to employees to ensure that we remove that harm. And I think that movement is moving more towards, it's not well being programs, it's more systemic issues. And I think we think like that. That's how psychologists think. We look at, let's put our scientists practitioner, let's identify the factors and let's work on how we can help, um, and create interventions. And I really believe that's one of our competitive advantages, and you're right, there are a lot of consultants at the moment selling that work.

[00:19:54] Bronwyn: No, I was kind of smiling just then because when you were naming the psychosocial hazards, it is crazy how often I have heard over the past few years of being a psychologist, um, how problematic hot desking is a lot for like, and I was like, is that a unique psychosocial hazard? Because it's just like, I've developed this like by proxy hatred of, uh, hot desking, like through the impact that it's had on many people I've met. But it's, it, like when you said like systematic, I'm like, yeah, because it's not like accounting for people's sense of like consistency and psychological safety and predictability and it's making things difficult.

[00:20:33] Nick: And things like, if you look at the individual needs, if I'm an individual that requires my setup in a particular way because, as an example and this is a really good example, I read really fast. Just, I read really fast and I've put systems and things in place in my actual computer setup to slow me down so I don't respond in a particular way.

But if you set up your workstation like that or your practices, these are things that are important to people and support them in their everyday work. But I think these are the things where we can, we can really help and we can look at individual needs as well.

And I think adding to that is, um, and we all know, post COVID, the world did change a lot and people became, and this probably if I put on my executive director HR hat on, people, what was good was people started to talk more about their mental health. And we know that, and we know that in terms of the demand for mental health services, but what it also meant was Employers were suddenly saying, "Hey, what does that mean for us? Like, what do we do now? Is it just traditional EAP? What do I do when a person comes and says, actually, I've just been diagnosed with X". And we have that, you know, whether it's ADHD in the workplace, what do I have to do? Do I have to actually change everything in the workplace?

And I think what's been great is people are more comfortable now to talk about these topics in the workplace, but we equally need to help employers know how to support people.

[00:22:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really common thing. It's, and I hear that a lot around R U OK? Day and just some other campaigns as well. It's like, we're encouraging people to talk more than ever, but then we don't want to let them down when they go reach out for professional help and the services aren't available. And I think likewise in the workplace, we don't want to encourage people to speak up and then just do nothing and be unresponsive. And so I agree with your point that I think psychologists could be really instrumental in helping workplaces respond.

[00:22:40] Nick: Yeah, and you can see now why, when we're having this conversation, it's interesting. Through my career, you know, I, my thinking was I'm going to be a psychologist in a private practice room, and that's all I'm going to do. And then my frame of thinking has changed. Now I love, by the way, I love doing private practice and I love doing my one on one. And I can't do that in a corporate setting because obviously I, you know, there's dual roles and I'm not going to do that from an ethical point of view. So my work in the workplace, my psychology is more so based on organizational programs around mental health policies, services for employees. In my private practice, I get rewarded with that whole like one on one work, actually doing intervention work directly with my clients. I feel very fortunate and privileged to be able to do both.

[00:23:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, one thing I'm interested in is, like, I do think this is a unique well at least uncommon combination. And I think a lot of people are, especially early career psychologists, they just don't really know the scope of what they can do. And it's difficult for them to see career options. And I'm just curious, like, do you feel throughout your training that you were made aware of like the different ways that psychologists can use their skills in different settings. or is this something you had to discover for yourself?

[00:24:06] Nick: What was really interesting was when I finished my my sixth... like when I went through the clinical program and I was doing my placements I had three amazing placements. I did, um, can I mention them?

[00:24:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, you can.

[00:24:19] Nick: So my first placement was at Headspace and I had amazing supervision. Um, And I won't call out my supervisor, but she was absolutely amazing. And just taught me so much. And my second placement was at Chris O'Brien Lifehouse and I had... I had two supervisors. I had two amazing supervisors who were there every day and I just had an amazing experience in that environment. And then my last one was at Long Bay Prison. Um, so I just had these amazing opportunities and my supervisor there was amazing.

And the...

[00:24:50] Bronwyn: quite different settings, right?

[00:24:52] Nick: really different settings

[00:24:53] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:54] Nick: challenging in so many different ways

[00:24:56] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Nick: But the common thread through that was, I think they were saying to me, you know, just Wait and see how you feel at the end of the program. Don't put this pressure on yourself that you must come out and do X.

And then when I was finishing the program, I started networking and looking for opportunities about what I would do. And I was really fascinating because some people would not engage with me in dialogue around working in a private practice setting because they're like, no, you need to do four days. No, you need to do this. And I get it. I fundamentally get that there is a commercial obligation that an organization has to me in terms of having people join, but it made me feel like I had to give up everything, all my HR work, because I had to commit to four days of psychology and that's it.

And I probably was like, no, that's not how I see the world. I believe in flexibility. I believe in autonomy. I believe in agency and what I do. And I think we should all be a little bit more vocal about what's important to us.

And secondly, I was also being treated like I, all my experience of 20 years didn't count. But how will you do that? But how will you even meet the registrar competency? So, personally, I thought some people were very rigid in their thinking in terms of how I could structure a post registration career.

And I was very fortunate to meet my current primary supervisor who, It's probably going to listen to this. I'm not saying it because they'll be listening to this. So this is not about brownie points. Another person that I spoke to a lot for advice was David Deamer in Melbourne, actually, who's, um, just, I think won psychologist of the year. Uh, and I got to speaking to them and they were challenging me. They were like, why are you thinking like that? You know, this is not, you can do what you want. And the current clinic I work in said, no, you know what? Come here. Just try it and see how you feel. We'll get your clients. We'll get you your male clients. We'll get you your community clients that you want to focus on. I'm like, really? And I'm like, what do you reckon about me doing some HR? They're like, try it. Let's see how this works.

And look, it's not easy all the time. I'm not going to lie because you have to be organized. You have to balance. I have CPD requirements that I have to meet. I have supervision requirements I have to meet. But I love the fact that I'm doing it the way that's right for me. I'm meeting my obligations under APRAH's requirements in terms of going through the whole program requirements. I'm meeting my ethical obligations. I'm doing everything that I'm required to do, but we work in a profession where we are able to define our own pathway forward and I really encourage anyone, whether they're, you know, at the start of their careers, um, or, or like me, more mature, but an early career psychologist to really sit down and go, what's important to me before you get pulled into, it's got to be done this way.

And that also applies to the way that we also contract psychologists, because as an executive director of HR with 20 years experience in commercial contracts, I would also say we need to protect ourselves and it is not acceptable that we still have employers out there with contracts which are not deemed acceptable for early career psychologists who have no access to know what's right or wrong in that. So yeah, I'm pretty firm on that. So I also have an obligation to share that with listeners around signing

[00:28:22] Bronwyn: absolutely. And interestingly, that's, I've, I've interviewed a few people about their listener stories and what you're saying about really sitting down and thinking about what's important to you is something that a few other guests have brought up as very important, um, because some people have. I've heard like, you know, they've stopped when, for example, the person was like, you have to work four days a week in private practice, they've been like, okay, I guess I have to do that.

And then they do do that and they sacrifice what's important to them and they end up very unhappy. Whereas what we've, I've heard from guests is that if you shop around and find a workplace that you feel fits with your values and your way that you wish to work, then that usually results in better outcomes for you, for your clients, and you just feel better about your work.

[00:29:13] Nick: I'm, I'm feeling like a choice point act thing happening there. Uh, and and you're absolutely right because that's actually what I had to do. So I absolutely felt I was, you know, and if we use that terminology and I'm using this, I actually did go through this. I went through moments where I was saying, am I really, you know, moving towards my values and what's important?

And for some people, financial security is important. Let's not forget. We are all living in a world where there is increased financial pressure. So to say I'm a psychologist and let's not talk about money. No, it's not okay. Like we sacrifice a lot. We pay a lot of money to go through education. We need security. And I can't remember, Bron, but you've had a couple, I can't remember which podcast it was.

[00:30:00] Bronwyn: I love talking about money.

[00:30:02] Nick: Yeah, but there was one where you spoke about, I can't remember the one, but, um, she spoke about, like, creating more financial security.

[00:30:10] Bronwyn: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:11] Nick: Yeah, I can't remember which.

[00:30:12] Bronwyn: It's probably Hayley actually.

[00:30:14] Nick: Maybe it was Hayley, but I remember listening going, you are absolutely okay, and we should talk about it and in my network of psychologists, People will reach out to me and say, "Hey, can I speak to you about this contract? I'm going to sign how I should do this." Look for me, what was more important was the... The clinical director, their purpose, what they're trying to do, um, and also flexibility. So I had high flexibility, CPD and perfectionist standards that I need to still to drop.

[00:30:42] Bronwyn: Yes, yeah, no, and I think it's interesting you coming from a background where you know contract law very well. It sounds like... yes, because that's one of the key things we talk about on this podcast as well. I've had a lot of episodes about contracting and sham contracting because it's not something as early career psychologists that we generally know about.

We don't know what's a fair contract. We don't know what fair terms are. And certainly I've had my own contracts where I've been like, it'll be okay, I have no need to like try and consult with anybody else. I'm sure it's okay. And it hasn't been okay.

 I do wonder whether... I guess coming to psychology later in your career, whether, I guess you have nothing to compare it to, but did it come with a certain level of confidence that like, you know, I can take my time here, I can find a workplace that suits me, I can negotiate with my contract?

[00:31:30] Nick: Yeah, and it's very easy for me to sit here because I had experience. So I was bringing work experience to the table. But equally, I will say, what I found hard was, I had conversations where people were dismissing my work experience and that did not feel great. So I would sit in a room and some people would say, yeah, you've been doing HR for 20 years, you know, and let's break that down, what that means, you know, that's 20 years of looking at engagement, doing organizational, what I, you know, 2000 employees managing risk in the workplace.

But I was being told all of a sudden, yeah, but you know... That really doesn't count. You're starting at the start. Now, I am nowhere near where I need to be or where I want to be in terms of the basics of case formulation, you know, interventions, I still have the moments where I'm like, Oh my God, what do I even do here? Like, this is freaking me out. And I feel completely imposter syndrome every single day sometimes when I'm in the actual, you know, therapy room, but I think there are other things that I bring into the profession, which I sort of thought, oh, can't you see that? And they were being dismissed.

[00:32:42] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that that sounds like it would feel pretty crummy to have that dismissed.

[00:32:46] Nick: yeah, and I think I started to feel like, oh, well, that doesn't matter anymore. Like, got to start from the start. So I think, people do bring a lot of experience, lived experience, life experience, work experience, and there's no traditional pathway to this profession. And I do believe we need to be thinking that the world's changed and people will come from different backgrounds, but we should really look at that as we do with our clients. We try and understand our clients, their strengths, and how they work with those strengths and help them through that.

So I, as I said, I feel very privileged to have. You know, working at the moment with supervision and in a clinic where I love, you know, I feel completely like imposter syndrome every day. I absolutely do. And I still have my moments of, what am I doing? But I also am challenged a lot where they remind me, actually you're okay with this, like chill with that. Let's focus on this. And I think that's a really important learning for me.

[00:33:43] Bronwyn: Totally. And yeah, imposter syndrome is so common when we're, yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's the top thing for early career psychologists. I do wonder though, like being a male identifying person, plus being part of the LGBT community, plus having your background in HR... like, do you feel working with your clients that you do bring life experiences and that does help your clinical practice?

[00:34:09] Nick: Yes, I do. I think when you're in that clinical setting, when I'm with my clients, uh, I definitely do bring that. I will always disclose that I'm openly a gay man and I don't have an issue doing that. Um, it's something that I'm very comfortable with. It's interesting though, one thing that I do think I always consider is my own biases and what comes up for me in some sessions. And it's one thing I'm always mindful of.

I think when I started dealing with clients one on one, I thought, I can't, you know, I can't reveal that. I can't disclose that about myself. And learning boundaries, I think has been very important for me. And there are some things I won't. There are some things that I just, for example, sometimes when I'm in a clinical setting, people Google you. This is what freaked me out when I went into private practice. People, like, search you online, particularly the younger, when I was at Headspace...

[00:35:02] Bronwyn: yeah.

[00:35:03] Nick: ...and they would disclose to you, oh, I see so and so, you know, and you could very easily see through various. Whether it's LinkedIn or whatever, what people do. I found that quite challenging when they would confront you with your personal history and you think, Oh God, do I need to go change everything online?

[00:35:19] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:35:20] Nick: I think I always then think about what profile do I have online? What my clients find out about me and what am I willing to discuss? Um, and I'll always say, Oh, like, yeah, absolutely. That's online. So I have no issue hiding that. And this is things like what I do for work, but I think you also learn boundaries of what I will and will not disclose.

[00:35:40] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And that's, yeah, part of, I guess, having a, having a framework in your own mind about self disclosure and being like, what is the purpose of this? Like is it helpful clinically? Yeah. Why am I doing this? I guess.

[00:35:53] Nick: I love being able to be in a room with people where I can, I have that lived experience as well. I think what I've learned though as well is, I think it's really helped, I do think that life experience helps in this profession, I genuinely believe that, and I'm not talking about life experience from an age perspective. Any life experience helps. I always bring it back down to, let's be formulative about this. What am I trying to do here with this client? And how am I really helping them from a clinical point of view? I always go back to that. And I have very strict supervisors who remind me of that every single day.

[00:36:27] Bronwyn: yeah, no, it's such a process to work it out because I guess one thing I worked out quite early on when I was starting out as a psychologist was like, let's say you have a client in front of you who never gets to take up space in their relationships or in their families and then I'm coming in here as a psychologist and even something innocuous like I did some painting on the weekend, maybe that might be threatening to them and taking up too much space when they see this as this needs to be their space entirely. So it's, it's, yeah, it's something to consider.

[00:36:56] Nick: Do you know what I find really interesting as you were just saying that I was thinking out, one of the... what came up for me as you were talking then was one of the biggest learnings is when you're looking, working across different things, so, for example, you work in a corporate setting... In a corporate setting, we're very goal focused, outcome focused. But when you're in that clinical setting with a client, yes, we set goals, but we go at the pace of the client and we meet the client where they're at.

And early on when I started working with clients, what was coming up for me was this need to deliver, this need to get an outcome and I think for me, what I realized was... You know, if you are working in multiple spaces, whether that's policy, whether that's corporate, whether that's whatever it is, be really mindful of how do you operate in the context of what you do and how does that play into the other roles.

And I really compartmentalize now. When I walk into the clinic, I remind myself why I'm there. I disconnect from everything. I will not bring any technology into the room. That room is my client, and I will not, and I, my persona changes, not because my identity is different, because I need to remember why I'm there.

And then when I'm in that corporate setting, I know, people are very clear, I'm not here to do any clinical one on one work. I have very strict boundaries. The first day when people meet me, and they find out, oh, you're a psychologist, you know, we'll talk to you about my problems. And I'm very clear, that is not my role here. That is only my position description. And I think that's really important to think like that, particularly if you're doing multiple different roles.

[00:38:34] Bronwyn: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's something I hadn't even considered, but I, I imagine, yeah, that's quite tough, like being quite goal oriented, but if you brought that goal orientation into clinical work, it would be quite stressful for a client. It'd be like, have I fixed you yet? Like, are we done?

Goal

[00:38:50] Nick: are we going?

[00:38:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. They'd be

[00:38:53] Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're still, we're still formulating here. Like, well, you know, uh,

[00:38:59] Bronwyn: totally.

[00:39:00] Nick: and I think that's really important and we're taught like that, right? We go through the training and we're like, what's the goal? What, what are you helping them with? I think private practice and I don't know if you've found this as well, but private practice is hard as well.

That's fine. Because you know that potentially if they're coming with a mental health treatment plan, you know that they have 10 sessions that are rebated. And I always think, they're paying money here and, you know, I have to consider that and how do I get an outcome for this client in this, you know, with that time that I've got with them, knowing that for some people it's a financial burden, you know, some people do not have the privilege to be able to actually pay that money.

I struggle with that still. I still do today. I really It weighs on me, and I bring this up in supervision a lot, and I always say, you know, I'm always thinking about, oh, it's 50 minutes. I want to give more time to them. I want to do whatever to help.

[00:39:58] Bronwyn: It weighs heavily on me also. It's, it's literally found its way into my opening spiel that I do in my first session. And I say something like, I recognize that you spent, you will be spending time, energy and money coming here. And I want to make sure that we work in sessions so that you get the most out of it. And I certainly don't want to place pressure on you, but I want to develop a culture of feedback where we can say what's working and what isn't, that kind of thing. So that we can get you know, what's best for you. And I want to be on your team for that.

So yeah, it's like I've, thank you. Yeah. I've workshopped that over a while. Cause it's like, yeah, it was weighing heavily on me and I was like. I just want to acknowledge that I know that you are spending money coming to see me, and I want to make sure that we, we help you or get you to where you want to go. Like not in the fastest way possible that you feel so rushed, but in a way that recognizes where you're at but makes use of our time.

[00:40:47] Nick: Absolutely. And I think that's something that The client has a choice in this as well, right? The therapeutic relationship is critical and all of that. And I've also, I think once you frame something like that and they're aware of that, I think it's a very different starting point.

Um, but when you were talking, one of the other things, I think, which was really interesting when I was looking at moving into a role around doing the psychology component clinical work, everyone kept on saying to me, don't do private practice, you can't do private practice as your, you know, first in... post registration job.

[00:41:22] Bronwyn: I see. Yep, gotcha.

[00:41:24] Nick: And it's like everyone, everyone I would meet would say don't do private practice, don't do private practice. It's not, it's, you know, go do something else.

[00:41:31] Bronwyn: Do you know why they were saying that? Like what was,

[00:41:34] Nick: I'm still trying to work it out. And maybe

[00:41:35] Bronwyn: okay, sure.

[00:41:36] Nick: maybe I'm completely naive here and you know, I haven't worked it out yet. But I get why. They were saying that. It's too isolating, you don't have enough support around you, you're working on the hour you obviously don't have that kind of security of a multidisciplinary team at times. So I can see why people say...

[00:41:55] Bronwyn: yeah. Okay.

[00:41:56] Nick: but I don't agree, because I think there are some private practice settings which are set up in a better way than some public health settings and there are some private practice settings which are doing amazing programs for provisionals, for post registration, for endorsements, whatever, with amazing CPD, which is ridiculous. Like, literally every week where I work, it's like, I can't even, like, it's like, take your pick of what CPD you want to do.

And I think this goes back to, I don't think it's about don't do prior practice, it's about when you're signing up for that first job, who is my supervisor, how many times will I meet with them, can I call them if I'm having a crisis moment who are my rest of my team, what CPD's available, because in some public health settings, it may be that you get lots of CPD, lots of online amazing resources, and in some you get one conference a year and that's it, and that's it.

So I think you can't think don't do private practice, don't do, you know, public health. I think it's look at the role, understand what you're going to get and think about where you want to go. And for me, I was told don't specialise, don't specialise, but I'm clear. I want to work in mental health. I want to work with the community in a more broader way.

And that's why I signed up for this. And it's okay to be very clear on That's why I'm doing it, because I'm passionate about this.

[00:43:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, I think that's really important. Thanks so much for sharing that with us because I think if people do it like black and white and they're like, Oh no, private practice is isolating without looking at the specific workplace, then they may, I guess, not turn down a workplace that would provide them with lots of support and, and lots of CPD.

[00:43:47] Nick: Exactly.

[00:43:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. Mm. No. Very important. So. Nick, I was hoping to do a bit of a 360, but something we were talking about was the importance of networking. And I just wondered if you could speak to that a bit more.

[00:44:03] Nick: Yeah, when I was going through my placements, um, and actually when I was sort of starting to look at placement opportunities or looking at future opportunities a lot of people would say to me, how did you get... because I got, just if I start back, my clinical masters, I did at Charles Sturt, which was the flexible program where you get to choose your own placements and you have to find your own placements.

[00:44:26] Bronwyn: Ah.

[00:44:27] Nick: And they can be paid or they can be unpaid. So there's pros and cons. And many students found it really challenging because they were saying, how do you even find placements? And one thing that I learned very quickly, and I've learned through my work in HR, was networking is critical. And I really recommend to all listeners, whether you're at the start of the study, you know, doing your bachelor's, don't underestimate the importance of networking.

And when I say networking, it's things like, think through that kind of system. So if you did a little circle, and then you said, "Who am I networking who works in health? Who am I networking that works in policy?" Kind of just start doing a bit of a map. And I was really forward. I just started emailing everyone that I could find.

Hey, you know, getting on LinkedIn, emailing people and going, Hey, I really love what you're doing. Is there any way we can connect? Hey, I love this. This profession was amazing. Everyone was like, sure, let's have coffee. Let's do this. Let's do this. So before I knew it, I was already engaging with these amazing people who were saying, Come back to me when you finish this and I'll help you with this.

And I was amazed. So, and then people said to me, how do you know all these people in psychology? And I'm like, I just was messaging, um, get on, get on the different, you know, forums, programs, I don't know, groups that are available and go to those pub nights where they do like free CPD.

[00:45:55] Bronwyn: Totally.

[00:45:56] Nick: And before you know it, like you've developed this psych network, and my psych network, this is, Interesting. It's now bigger than my HR network.

[00:46:06] Bronwyn: Wow, that is interesting. I'm so glad that you had such a positive experience and that people were so generous. I was going to say that I think a lot of psychologists, we really do you want to give back to people who are entering the profession? Like, I know if anybody approached me, I would be like, look, if I've got anything I could help you with, like, I certainly, I certainly would. And I think like a lot of other people would.

[00:46:28] Nick: Well, I think you are, Bron, because I think this podcast in itself is around, I, I don't know how much work goes into it, but I, I know I'm looking at this platform that we're on at the moment, and I'm just like, how does even come together? But I, I, I, I think this is a really good example of... At the end of the day, we want to help our clients, but I think we also have a responsibility to help each other.

Um, and ultimately for me, you know, I think in the future I'd love to be a board approved supervisor, I'd love to lead a team, I'd love to help psychologists. So even now, if people contact me and I can offer them advice on HR, do not ever, now I'm seeing like everyone going like, Oh, I'm going to email him.

[00:47:07] Bronwyn: Here's my contract!

[00:47:08] Nick: Here's my contract, would you please review it? And yeah...

[00:47:11] Bronwyn: Don't do that.

[00:47:11] Nick: if people, don't do that please, uh, if people contact me and say, hey, I just want to talk to you about my thinking on my role design. How do I write a position outline? You know, someone's asked me, I will always offer that support where I can because I can bring something to this profession. I want to help people.

[00:47:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, and I think that's wonderful. I'm, I'm really for collegiality in our profession and I really want us to look after each other and I do agree that that we should be looking after each other. It's, it can be really hard and it can be quite isolating. So I'm really glad that you've created a really solid network and I'm also really glad that you've said that you just Like message to people on LinkedIn, because I think like listeners would be thinking, "Oh, I need to write a very formal letter and be like, Dear Sirs" but it's, it sounds like it was really just being like, Hi, I'm Nick. Like, here's my situation.

[00:48:04] Nick: Yeah. And, and, and even like. Once you start seeing people doing, like, be curious, be interested. Like there are some psychologists, like, like this, Bronwyn, like, I mean, how did I get, how did we connect? You know, I was like, Hey

[00:48:17] Bronwyn: You just signed up on the form. Yeah.

[00:48:19] Nick: Can we, you know, be curious, explore and then when people are posting information like some people post research on LinkedIn or other social media platforms, whatever it is, Facebook there's so many Facebook stuff. Be curious, connect, love what you're doing there. This is really fascinating. I really like this. That is networking and we should not feel like it's. You know, something like, you're sucking up. It's actually not. Like, these people are working really hard to make a difference, whether they're writing an article, whether they're doing a podcast. Let's embrace it. Let's connect. Let's say, hey, how can I help you? Because that's how we, like you said, look after each other and we're going to make a bigger difference.

[00:48:59] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah. Like I'm really hoping to niche in sexology. So I've just finished my certificate in sexology and it's a field that I really love and I've been connecting with a lot of people in the sexology field. Lovely folks. So great. Um, but yeah, it hasn't felt scummy. It's just felt like we share an interest and we really want to help people with like sexual health. So yeah, let's connect.

[00:49:22] Nick: And I, and I, I know that you, um, I did listen to your podcast with Emma St. John, um,

[00:49:28] Bronwyn: It was great.

[00:49:28] Nick: I work with, um, so, uh, yeah, so I completely, I think it's actually a really fascinating area and I'm glad that you're doing the work in there, that there, because I think actually we need more CPD and we need to spend more time in the programs learning about this stuff because you know what, people are having sex and they, sometimes it becomes, I don't know, an issue for them and they want to talk about it in therapy. So let's talk about sex.

[00:49:57] Bronwyn: Yep. I mean, that was my thing. I was just like, we just need more safe spaces in psychology where people can talk about sex. And I just didn't feel like we had enough of them. And I was like, well, I'm going to go in there then.

[00:50:06] Nick: Yeah. Yeah. And I know, I know Emma can, you know, has no issue talking about it either. And I reckon you won't either. So I think it's...

[00:50:12] Bronwyn: No, I don't. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I'm very open. So it's like, I've already got like the good attitudes. So I was just like, well, why not?

But yeah okay, and another thing that I wanted to talk about, just doing another sidestep, is I think like hearing you talk, Nick, about your registration journey, I know you're working full time at the same time as studying, and I'm just curious about what sacrifices, if any, you needed to make to become registered.

[00:50:42] Nick: That's probably the, the biggest challenge that I had. And I think if I was to compartmentalise them into thought bubbles, as you talk about that, and that's sort of how I, my mind's going there's a part of our relationship... so I'm partnered, my partner Phillip and I have been together for nearly 10 years, and I was, I was having to work full time and spend my weekends studying and we all know that those papers and being able to get the high distinctions to get into honours... I didn't realise the sacrifice.

And I, and, and the stress of every paper you submitted, you know that if your GPA is not what it needs to be, that could be, you know, a challenge for you getting into the next phase. That's what it felt like at the time. I don't think it's actually that bad, but it felt like... don't know.

[00:51:34] Bronwyn: I know that that's a shared thought. I would say you're not alone. And I think that a lot of, from what I've seen on like the Facebook groups, a lot of people are thinking similarly and feeling similarly.

[00:51:43] Nick: And if I don't get into honours, I can't do this. And if I don't get into the clinical program, I can't do this. It's not that black and white. And, but we feel like that at the time. And that's the reality for us at the time. For me, what that meant was I spent a lot of time studying on weekends. I lived abroad while I was doing my honours. So I was actually living in the Netherlands, um, working globally and doing my thesis remotely.

It's all sounds, it sounds ridiculous. I know and that's a whole other podcast, but, um. I think what it meant was I was maybe spending too much time working and studying and not enough time living life. And for me, it's a voice that I constantly have and a challenge where I say, "Okay, like, Nick, how much time am I spending on Nick? And how much time am I spending on my career"? Which is going back to, I feel like I've got more time now to do things for what's important to me.

So I think one is around that time. And I've got an amazing partner who was always there. By my side saying, it's fine, you know, this is your time, this is important to you. Financially, I think I left my, um, I was working for ING as the Executive Director of HR and I left that at the start of the year and I took, um, I went full time study to finish my clinical program. I had to, I had no choice and I stopped working and that was tough. But, you know, I was preparing for it, but I stopped working and I said, I'm going to do this full time.

I've got no regrets. I'm glad I did it. Best thing I ever did. But there's a financial impact on that, right? You know, um, you don't just wake up and go, "Oh, I'm okay with that". Um, so I think you do have a challenge around the finances. And then I think the third part would be I think there was some sacrifices I made around, not sacrifices, I'd say... the last thing was learning to be patient. I don't know if I've articulated this properly, but I think I thought I could get it all done in six years or four, whatever it was, five years. It took me eight years and the eight years, it took me a bit longer than what I expected, but I'm, I don't think it was a sacrifice. It was, I had to change my thinking around the path of how to get there, which meant going part time at some points, doing it a different way. So I think that was more around the length of time it would take.

[00:54:02] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it's, it really is some significant challenges that you're describing and I imagine it wasn't an easy journey over the eight years.

[00:54:11] Nick: Yeah, the fun, but I would not do it again. And I'm not doing my PhD.

[00:54:15] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:54:16] Nick: Which I know you've done, Bron. And, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kudos to you. I would not go down that pathway.

[00:54:22] Bronwyn: Yeah. I only did it because I was a naive 21 year old and I was like, okay, I guess I'll do a PhD.

[00:54:27] Nick: Yeah, I know. But you know what? It's funny. Cause my partner's like, are you going to do the PhD? And I'm like, no, no, no. And then I'm like, but it could be interesting. I'm like, not now. I've got an, I've got so much to learn that I'm focused on building my clinical skills. That's what's important to me right now. I'm working with my clients. Yeah, but in the future, I might go down a research pathway.

[00:54:49] Bronwyn: Well, I've, I'll be having an episode coming up in like a month or two, which will be all about PhDs. So stay tuned, listeners and Nick, um, but yeah, no, I think that's really wonderful to hear that what you value now is really building those relationships with your clients, doing the clinical work. And so you're back in HR?

[00:55:08] Nick: Yeah, so I'm doing the, yeah, so basically I do four days a week in human resources which is also has an application of clinical psych. So I do mental health programs, psychosocial hazards. So there's a component of my work in psychology there. But obviously I do not see clients within an organizational setting. And that is purely more general practice around organizational topics, and then I also do private practice and see clients in a private practice setting, which I love, and I don't know what the future will hold. It feels good right now, and what I've learned here It's fine right now. Like, it might change. I don't know. Like, you know, the split, the composition, the balance might change. But I'm having fun at the moment. I'm feeling good. And I'm learning to roll with it a bit. And learning that there's no, you know... and I love being registered now because I don't know if you felt like this, Bronwyn, but you can sort of start deciding on what you want to, like, what CPD am I going to do? Where am I going to focus? I love that.

[00:56:13] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:13] Nick: Anyone who's like, you know, kind of still studying or doing the provisional pathway and they're like, Oh, this is so, like, don't, you know, have to do it this way. When you get registered, it changes and it opens up to, "I'm going to just focus on this for a while". And I love that. I read what I want. Yes, I'm actually blabbering now because I'm getting kind of excited, like, the geekiness is coming out, like...

[00:56:38] Bronwyn: I think it's great. And I completely agree. It's really exciting to be able to focus on, like, I guess it's just a sense of freedom that you, that you didn't have beforehand. And yes, like, I think it is really exciting being able to pick your CPD and be like, Hey, I'm going to like, try this out. And what about this?

It's really cool. Yeah.

[00:56:56] Nick: At the moment because we, you know, I mean, we all love a good supervision contract with very clear goals and as you heard earlier, I love a good goal. But I love being able to talk to my supervisors about, I feel like this is an area that I really want to focus on and I've actually got a primary supervisor and two secondary supervisors. So I actually have like a team of people who support me in my registrar program and I love that cause they're so different. And they challenge me in different ways.

[00:57:25] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's absolutely wonderful. So Nick, if you could give any last piece of advice to anyone who's going through their psychology career or coming to psychology later in life, what would you say to them?

[00:57:41] Nick: I think the first thing I would say is... I heard this and I should have listened to it... It's a marathon, not a race. And I think you have to treat that when you go into psychology, just put it, chunk it, don't feel like I've got to make all the decisions, it's this way or no way, it's clinical or no way, it's not like that.

The whole path of whatever path you take, whether it's going through a provisional path, then leading into an endorsement, or going through the general, or going through, there's so many different things you can do, going through a PhD pathway, just take it step by step and it's a marathon, and take care of yourself through that marathon. Think of it, when you're running in a marathon, you don't sprint, you've got to go a bit slower, you've got to stop and have a drink along the way, and you've got to preserve some of that energy for the final sprint.

Um, and think about what it feels like at the end of the marathon, you see them dropping to the ground, that's how I felt when I finished, um, and people said that to me, I was like, I need a break right now and I need to recharge. So the first piece of advice I would say is think that it is a bit like that.

And the second thing I would say is if you are feeling like, you know, sometimes you have a dream or there's something that you think you want to try and people are saying no you can't do it like that, speak to different people.

The beauty of our profession is that everyone will give you a different perspective and different opinions and I think it's important to listen to all those and then come up with your own mind what's important to you and do some of your own psychology, like, What I've learnt is, I love a good ACT on myself, um, I love a good cognitive diffusion, like I'm always, you know, like, doing the thought stuff, doing the choice points, doing values. We're privileged to be able to know these interventions, so don't be afraid to do them on yourself.

And the last thing I would say is, I think it's really important we also stand up for our own, what's right for us. You know, we're an ethically driven profession. So I think we should also be very clear on what we expect in terms of terms and conditions of employment what we're paid, being paid fairly for what we do, with good contracts.

So if you feel that something is not right, don't be afraid to speak up. Speak to someone, not necessarily in that... employment negotiation to speak to someone because there are some great people around who will give you advice and maybe it's not the right contract for you.

[01:00:18] Bronwyn: Oh, all excellent things. I'm so glad that you were able to come on and share these wonderful insights with us, Nick, and congratulations again on your... gaining your registration and getting into the clinical registrar program. It's a really big achievement.

[01:00:33] Nick: Thanks, Bronwyn. I'll, um, yeah, definitely, um, uh, gonna focus more on the self care and balance at the moment because that's, um, yeah, you know, practice what you preach is what I say.

[01:00:43] Bronwyn: Oh, totally. No. And yeah, it sounds like well deserved, well earned... yeah, focus on self care. So thank you so much again, Nick, for coming on and sharing your story with us. It was really unique and very interesting as well and thanks for sharing your insights.

[01:00:57] Nick: Thank you very much.

[01:00:59] Bronwyn: Well, listeners, thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoyed the podcast as well. Catch you next time and have a good one. Bye!