Celebrating episode 100! Reflections and our favourite clips

Introduction

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. And today we are doing something a little bit different and that is because today's episode is the 100th. Woohoo! Amazing. I've got my partner and editor of the podcast, Dr. Michael English here with us. Hi, Michael.

[00:00:29] Michael: Hello everyone.

[00:00:29] Bronwyn: And what we've done is we've kind of got an awards episode, I guess. Would you frame it like that?

[00:00:36] Michael: This is my suggestion, so negative feedback can be directed towards me. But I thought it'd be fun to maybe do an, like a, an awards style show where we, uh, have a few different categories that we're going to go through and select some of our favorite episodes. So this isn't formal or anything. It's, uh, just a, it's just a bit of fun.

[00:00:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, nobody gets any prizes, but they get the recognition, I guess.

[00:00:59] Michael: The all important recognition.

[00:01:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. So we're going to do that. We're also going to talk a bit about what inspired the podcast and where it's going in the future.

[00:01:07] Michael: Sounds great. So how about we jump straight into it?

[00:01:11] Bronwyn: Let's do it.

Best Comedy (Most fun)

[00:01:11] Michael: Our first category is best comedy. And this is for the episode that we thought we had the most fun in.

[00:01:21] Bronwyn: Do we need a drumroll? Can we get a drumroll sound effect?

Okay. And the winner of this category is Episode 49 titled "Beyond the Cardigan. What can I wear?" And the guest for this episode was Sahra O'Doherty.

[00:01:36] Michael: Let's hear a little snippet from the episode.

[00:01:38] Bronwyn: (Clip) Okay, so I'm just thinking of how we subvert these norms. I'm curious about your opinion on two potential approaches. One, I'm going to label the fuck it approach and it's just you come in, you wear whatever the hell you want, everybody else is wearing blazers, tie, pants, and you're just like, I'm wearing something clean and this is me. Take it or leave it, but please take it.

[00:01:57] Sahra: I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of the fuck it approach. Um, I'll give you an example. Today I went to a fairly corporate lunch thingy and everybody there was wearing suits and ties for the men and I think there were a few other women there, most of whom were wearing either black dresses or, um, blazers and those sorts of things. And there I am with my bright pink hair and a bright pink dress and my sparkly silver shoes. And I just thought, you know what? I don't want to be boring. I'm this is me. I'm not gonna, you know, try to fit into something that I don't necessarily feel I have to fit into.

[00:02:40] Bronwyn: Nice. I think that's, that's really awesome.

Um, the alternative approach I was going to suggest is a graded approach. So maybe if you like jelly sandals, you wear like I know them one day, but still wear a tie with the jelly sandals. I don't know. And then over time you wear your jelly bracelet and then soon you've got your jelly outfit.

[00:03:03] Sahra: So the whole thing is jelly. I mean, I think that that would definitely work.

[00:03:06] Bronwyn: I've never seen a jelly top or jelly shorts, but I'm sure they're out there.

[00:03:09] Sahra: I'm sure we could make some. I think this sounds brilliant.

 (End clip)

[00:03:14] Bronwyn: Uh, yeah, I thought that was really funny and I feel like this encapsulates a lot of things about how I do the podcast and it just demonstrates, I do the same thing with clients. So like, with the jelly outfit, it's just like, I just make up shit on the spot and then it just becomes ridiculous. And then the ridiculousness becomes funny, at least to me.

 And yeah, it was just a really fun episode with Sahra talking about what can we wear. I think it's because I'm so over it. Like I used to be so corporate and I used to just wear tight clothes that were uncomfortable all day. And now I'm just like, whatever, I'll just wear whatever is authentically me, and it was really fun talking about that.

And that's what I like about the podcast as well, that I think we can subvert what is this idea of being a professional and talk about it in a different way. And I thought that was really fun. What did you think?

[00:04:08] Michael: I think it highlights several of the fun aspects of the podcast. Um, especially your, uh, how would I put this? Special skill in coming up with really good examples off the top of your head.

[00:04:20] Bronwyn: Oh, you thought that was a good example.

[00:04:22] Michael: There's air quotes around that, that listeners can't see. Um, but there was a really, there was a really fun episode. I had a hard time picking a clip for that one.

[00:04:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, that was a few, wasn't there?

[00:04:31] Michael: Yeah, there's a few different clips. and Sahra is a fantastic guest of course.

[00:04:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah is lovely and she's just really authentic and funny. And I think she encapsulates, who I want to be as a psychologist. It's really values driven, but just really authentic as well.

Best Drama (most gripping story)

[00:04:46] Michael: Okay. Next up we have our best drama, which refers to our most gripping listener story. And this episode we decided would be Episode 81 titled "The problem is the problem" with Alison O'Leary. And she was our first international guest?

[00:05:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. First international guest. And admittedly, when Alison emailed me, I was, I think because we're just so wary of scams.

[00:05:17] Michael: Okay.

[00:05:17] Bronwyn: And so I was like, is this a, is this like a scam thing or a marketing thing? And I'm really glad that I emailed Alison back and she's lovely and delightful. And yeah, our first international guest. And I really connected with Alison's story. Let's hear a little bit.

[00:05:33] Michael: Yeah. So just for context, the episode was a lot of, um, Alison's training and development to her psychology career. And she spoke to us a little bit about some of her experiences around working when COVID first hit.

[00:05:45] Bronwyn: (Clip) And so I guess I'm interested in, in you coming into this field, like what, what did you feel when you first entered?

[00:05:54] Allison: So I initially was planning to do my internship where I was working as a school based counselor. That was my first job in the field right before I started my internship. I was a school based counselor and it was during COVID.

And so this agency was actually a really good agency, I believe, but within CO during COVID, it was in crisis. It was in, they were having a hard time. So the turnover was really high. I was supposed to, my contract said I would have 25 to 30 clients. I would have a case manager, an intake specialist, but because of the lack of support, I was, you know, wearing multiple hats.

And by the time I left, I had a caseload of 60.

[00:06:35] Bronwyn: Wow. That's incredible. Oh, wow. God, I can't even imagine the pressure and stress that, that would have placed you under or, or were you coping with that?

[00:06:46] Allison: Well, COVID was difficult for a lot of people and I was definitely included in that. It was a tough time. I know a lot of therapists had to, you know, to abide by, we call it like HIPAA in the U.S. You know, we had to work in our and sometimes in our bedroom or, um, we had to navigate family. And so, um, it can be challenging to do this work right next to where you sleep. I was working with a lot of children who had experienced severe forms of abuse. Um, and, uh, as a first time therapist, I was running multiple groups, um, with not a lot of handholding.

Uh, the supervision was almost non existent because my supervisor would cancel often. And so even though I had a wealth of information in the field going into it, I still didn't feel right to me. And, uh, and so I decided not to do my internship there because I couldn't imagine taking on more than 60. I was already struggling to see all of the clients that I did have.

[00:07:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. So even when I listened back to that clip, I'm still gobsmacked that Alison had to have 60 clients on her caseload. And that was a clear breach of her contract. She was told she was going to get 25 to 30 clients and just the difficulty having to work from your bedroom during COVID. It just sounded so hard.

And I really loved hearing Alison's story in part, because I think it's sadly not uncommon, and I think a lot of listeners related to Alison's story again, sadly, but I really appreciate Alison's bravery and courage in sharing that with us. And yeah, I thought it was just really an exemplar of the kinds of real life difficulties that early career psychs face.

[00:08:33] Michael: And she had a remarkable amount of resiliency, I...

[00:08:36] Bronwyn: She did. Yeah.

[00:08:36] Michael: Considering she was an early career psychologist as well. Like, she was all new to this too. Really thrown in the deep end.

[00:08:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, um, she really did have a lot of resilience and there there were so many different aspects to that story as well. I'd really recommend if listeners haven't gone through that episode to, to give it a good listen. It's, it's really, like we said, really gripping.

Most Educational

[00:08:58] Bronwyn: So our next category is most educational, and for this one, it's Episode 92, using deliberate practice to improve your therapy skills and confidence with Dr. Aaron Frost.

 (Clip)

[00:09:12] Aaron: Deliberate practice is much more familiar to anyone who's ever played tennis or played guitar or done art or tried writing something. Deliberate practice is the process of doing something and then striving for excellence by doing it over and over again and looking for smaller and smaller ways in which you can actually improve your performance at its core.

[00:09:35] Bronwyn: Okay. So maybe this touches on something that I've heard in psychology is that we assume that the more experience you have that you must be better at what you do. Could you just speak to that?

[00:09:49] Aaron: Yeah, look, um, a few years ago, Goldberg and colleagues pretty compellingly dispelled that. Uh, they did the largest ever study of exactly this question where they followed a whole bunch of psychologists over the course of their career.

And some of their careers were up to 20 years long. They looked at the outcomes for clients and what they found was people were no better After 10 years, 15 years, or even 20 years of being a psychologist than they were at the beginning of their career. In fact, they were statistically worse.

[00:10:18] Bronwyn: Oh, wow.

[00:10:19] Aaron: Small effect, but worse.

[00:10:20] Bronwyn: That's a bit sad, isn't it?

[00:10:24] Aaron: Absolutely. And in fact, and I, I apologize to some of my statistician friends, because I'm going to sort of bastardize some numbers a little bit, but effectively without deliberate practice, it looks like we deteriorate by about 0.6 of a percent of performance every year.

[00:10:38] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:10:40] Aaron: Which isn't much, but over a decade, that's 6 percent worse performance. There's certainly no evidence that we improve.

 (End clip)

[00:10:46] Bronwyn: Again, just another gobsmacking episode in terms of information. I still feel a bit wow when I hear that because the, uh, Common law of being a psychologist is that the more experience you have, the better you are. And Aaron was saying, look, there's some pretty convincing evidence that this is the opposite. We actually get worse. And for me, It emphasizes the importance of keeping up with practice and psychology and making sure that you continue to practice those small but important skills. And I guess the folly of being overconfident as well.

[00:11:24] Michael: Yeah, some hard hitting messages there. This is probably something that applies across all professions, not just something that's like unique to psychology as well, that you got to keep on practicing your craft and deliberately practicing it here and Aaron goes on to talk about like the importance of making a real effort in your work and taking on board feedback seriously as well. In terms of like bang for buck in educational content, I think this episode was just like full of great tips in terms of improving your work as a psychologist.

[00:11:58] Bronwyn: Absolutely, but I also found it quite anxiety relieving because Aaron is not saying you need to change everything all at once. In fact, he's advocating for the opposite, which is that you need to make small changes consistently and repetitively over time. And for me that, that helps alleviate my anxiety because I'm like, okay, I don't want to change everything at once. I just want to focus on, for example, creating better summarizing statements for my clients. And I can focus on that for six months and I can see the improvement there. So I really enjoy that and it helps me to focus in my work.

[00:12:35] Michael: I also appreciated the relatively calm tone that Aaron took to, took to all this because even though this was like pretty heavy stuff, especially the, the, those numbers around, like if you don't do engage in deliberate practice, then your outcomes drop, which is A scary thought, but he has a very, uh, like keep calm and carry on approach to it that I feel like makes it so that everything will be okay if, if you put in the work.

[00:12:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. No, I agree with that.

Bronwyn's Most Personally Informative

[00:13:02] Bronwyn: the next category we have is the most personally informative. So informative to me and the episode I selected was episode 38, which is being a culturally competent therapist with Dr Avril Cook. Let's have a listen.

 (Clip)

[00:13:18] Bronwyn: I don't know too much about this and pulling this out of my head, but I have heard that more diverse workplaces and I guess more diverse professions results in better outcomes for everybody. Could you speak to that? I feel like that's very broad, but it's just something that I've heard.

[00:13:32] Averil: Absolutely, no, you're correct. There is a, there is a lot of research on this and a lot of this research is ignored, interestingly. I mean, some of it is centred around decision making and successive organisations, particularly around, um, you know, organizations, um, ability to weather storms like, you know, COVID and, um, also their financial viability. And they've found that when boards are diverse, and that means gender, it means culturally, racially, kind of different decision makers at the head of the helm, um, not just your white, male, older board member. You have a more robust organization that can weather these things.

There, there, there is also research done interestingly on when we, when COVID hit and when there were female leaders in countries, they actually survived so much better. There were much better social policies, um, big countries weathered those storms a lot better. So there is research in that, in, in those areas. A massive gap between that and action.

[00:14:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I feel convinced what I'm essentially hearing is that cultural competence and embedding cultural knowledge and services into our profession to psychology would be beneficial for both us as a profession and for the people who we serve.

[00:14:56] Averil: That's right. That's right.

 (Clip end)

[00:14:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, so this was quite an early episode and it's something that I really wanted to focus on with the podcast. I remember right from the start of the podcast, I was like, I want some episodes on cultural responsiveness. I want to talk about culture. And the reason was, was because I think it's important, but also because I feel like it's a huge gap in the training of early career psychologists.

So I spoke about this on that episode and I said, look, I don't think I got much training in working with culturally diverse and linguistically diverse folk during my five plus one course. There was only one opportunity that I had to do a deep dive into working responsibly with different cultures and that was with an essay where you could focus on a special population. I chose culturally and linguistically diverse folk, but I didn't have to, so I wouldn't have got anything.

And so. I continue to learn about being culturally responsive and having Avril come on and provide some of that information and the importance of embedding cultural knowledge into psychology and decolonizing psychology was just hugely informative for me. And it still informs the way that I practice and I've continued to get further education around that. And yeah, Avril really opened my mind to further knowledge in that area.

[00:16:17] Michael: Hmm. It's such a shame that embedding cultural competence into our qualifications and degrees is still such a relatively novel thing. That's really, if you look at the content of our, our coursework is still just like a little sprinkling on top for the, for the most part, when really there should be units dedicated to cultural competence.

Um, but even not as a psychologist myself, listening to Avril's episode, I think inspired me to make sure that the areas that I do work in, that I am culturally competent and it's not just like a box that needs ticking in order to be working ethically, but there's a lot to gain by working in a culturally competent framework.

[00:17:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, 100%. And look, there are universities who do have units, uh, that are looking at cultural aspects, but I think in our psychology training, like our master's programs, it's, I wish there was more is what I'm saying.

[00:17:16] Michael: It's a little bit lacking, but it's good that it's on everyone's radar and hopefully that we're moving in a better direction for the future.

[00:17:22] Bronwyn: I think we are because of the work of some important people like Avril who are helping to decolonize our curriculum and then there's dedicated folks who are really trying hard to do that. And so I look forward to where it's going more in the future and I just hope that, yeah, by sharing these episodes, on culture that everyone can recognize that we live in such a culturally diverse society and just forms a huge aspect of who we are and how we see the world and our relationships.

Yeah. It's just something that we cannot ignore and I just feel like it just needs, it just always needs more. So I'm very happy to do more episodes on culture in the future.

[00:17:57] Michael: Very well put.

Most Requested Topic

[00:17:58] Michael: Our next category is most requested topic. So this is the topic that we received the most comments on or requests for on social media and emails about, and it is episode 59, "how to get the most out of supervision".

[00:18:14] Bronwyn: ...with Annie Slater. And Annie was a lovely guest. Annie is a lovely person. And yeah, we had a lot of requests around supervision. How do I make sure I get the most out of supervision? What should a good supervisory relationship look like? How do I deal with some dilemmas that I'm having with my supervisor? And I thought that this episode was a good encapsulation of all of that. So let's have a listen.

 (Clip)

[00:18:36] Annie: There is no such thing as a perfect supervisor or a perfect supervisee. You know, you're all going to screw up at different points in the relationship. And part of being a good relationship is that you can repair that and move forward. But when I think about, um, what, you know, the ideal supervisor was, I always think about this one supervisor I had, and I had them during my four plus two.

And, and what they were, the reason that they were ideal was that they, not only had a really good grasp of what I had to do for that pathway, so they understood what, like, what I would look like as a psychologist when I came out the other end and kind of knew how to guide me there, but they were much more structured in supervision. Um, they helped identify when we were not having effective conversations in supervision that were leading to Improved client outcomes, and I'll talk a little bit about what she used to do because I've just mirrored her. I've probably just taken on a lot of her skills, which is, but also it's safe.

Like, I, I would say that a good supervision relationship is you can be vulnerable. The person creates a space in the same way that we create the space for a client that is safe. That that feels psychologically safe. You know, I can, I can share with them if I have no idea what I'm doing, that we collaborate, that it's a team effort, that I'm given some choice where possible in what we talk about and how we get there, that it's collaborative and also that they empower you, right?

Because I think early in your supervision kind of journey... it is this like developmental model of supervision, right? And it's when we're like newer, we need much more guidance and supervision becomes much more directive in answering questions because you don't know. There's like this, there's this whole bunch of information that you don't know yet.

And then on the other hand, as you kind of walk through that level of competence, you have all that knowledge and it becomes a bit more reflective. I think even just understanding where that is and having a good supervisor that can really respond to you where you are and check and clarify that your need got met in supervision that day and was anything outstanding.

Yeah, I think, I think that's what resonates.

 (End clip)

[00:20:58] Bronwyn: That was a really good clip.

[00:21:01] Michael: I thought so too.

[00:21:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, I thought that just covered everything that's really important about supervision to me. I'm like listening to that. And I just thought it was a great reminder of... what the supervisor's role is, because I think as early career psychs, like for me, it's like you get assigned a supervisor and I'm just like, who is this person and what are they supposed to do?

And because prior to becoming a psych, I had only had supervision from my PhD supervisors, I didn't know what the difference was. So I came into psychology being like, Oh, that's like my PhD supervision. And my PhD supervision was, there was an expectation that I would try and solve the problems for myself and then bring it to my supervisors for consultation.

So it was very, you're fostering supervision. to get some independence as a researcher with your PhD, but that was the wrong approach to take for psychology supervision. As Annie says, you actually need to be vulnerable, be like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Um, so yeah, it was, it's a really good episode and I hope listeners learned a lot from that and enjoyed Annie. And yeah, I love Annie's energy as well.

[00:22:05] Michael: Yeah, I don't have much to add to on to that.

I, I, I loved how, um, Annie made the, the topic of supervision, like really interesting to listen to because usually it can be quite a dry topic. And yeah, I just want to point out that supervisors have an important role in this relationship here as well, and that they need to know what you need to be in order to be an effective psychologist.

Um, if you feel like, you know, supervision isn't really working out for whatever reason, then it might not be your fault. It could be issues with the supervisor themselves that needs to be resolved too.

[00:22:38] Bronwyn: Well, I like how she emphasized that it's, it's a relationship, so there's got to be ruptures. And I guess a good marker of a good supervisory relationship is one where you can bring up any dissatisfaction or ruptures and then have a go at repairing them.

[00:22:53] Michael: Ruptures and repairs. Yeah. Exciting stuff.

[00:22:55] Bronwyn: No, it's such a good episode. Okay.

Host's Choice

[00:22:58] Bronwyn: Next category is host's choice. So this is my choice. And the episode I chose was episode 44, which is "therapists in therapy" and that was with Carly Dobar. Let's have a listen.

 (Clip)

[00:23:13] Bronwyn: What do you see as the, as the purpose of getting therapy as a therapist? Like why are we putting ourselves through this pain and vulnerability? And...

[00:23:23] Carley: I think there are so many reasons. I think firstly, because we all have a very human experiences of being alive in the world and sometimes we'll need external support. So I think it's health permission or health access. I also think it's really important as practitioners for us to go on the hot seat and just remember how difficult it can be sometimes to talk about these things that are really challenging, really painful, and that we'd rather avoid, if we can, on a nice day.

And I also think I do learn something that also helps my practice from every day. Counselor, psychologist, whatever I meet, whatever that might be. So I think it also helps my practice even if I'm trying to surrender and not be a psychologist as I go in, but I don't think I can ever sever that connection.

[00:24:10] Bronwyn: What was your reaction to that episode?

[00:24:13] Michael: I think there's a, there's a lot that can be learned when the therapist sits in the client's seat. And it's quite possible that you could go through your entire like psychology training and psychology career and never be a client yourself. And I think you'd be missing a big piece of the puzzle if That is something that you never experienced for yourself.

And I know that throughout your psychology training, you would have had lots of role plays and that sort of thing where you can get a little bit of experience of like being the client. But I think that's, it's a very different story when you are actually a real client and you've got all these like feelings and experiences that you might just not be aware that clients are going through when you're sitting in the therapist's chair. Is that right?

[00:25:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. I really love this episode. The reason why I chose it was because it touches on probably the three things that I go for in the podcast. So I want topics that I'm not talked about enough that are a little bit taboo. And I think therapists and therapy, I mean, it shouldn't be taboo, but there's a lot of stigma still towards therapists in therapy. So it covers that box.

And then the other one is I want it to be helpful. So every episode, I want it to be something tangible that listeners can take away and apply to their lives now. And so I felt like that episode was really informative and I really love fun. So I love episodes to be a bit fun, where appropriate as well. And so for this episode, I remember we did, what's that TV show I copied? The ABC one.

[00:26:00] Michael: Um, "you can't ask".

[00:26:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, you can't ask that. And so I gave like Carly and I some, you can't ask that style questions. And it was like, therapists are crazy if they go to therapy, like stuff like that. And so it was really, it was really fun. So I still think about this episode a lot and it stands out to me as one of the most important episodes to bust that myth that you can't be in therapy or that you're an inadequate therapist if you're in therapy to one that's just like, no, we should all be in therapy.

[00:26:30] Michael: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Editor's Choice

[00:26:31] Michael: Okay, so next up we have Editor's Choice, my choice. And I was a little bit cheeky here and I have picked two episodes.

[00:26:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, you have!

[00:26:44] Michael: Although they cover the very similar theme which is "Working Rurally". That's a hard word to say. And you said it, and you said it many times across these, uh, episodes.

[00:26:54] Bronwyn: And commented on that in the episode. I remember I like, "rurally"? That is a hard word to say. So why did you pick these episodes?

[00:27:01] Michael: So I'm from a rural background myself. I grew up in the country. I moved to the big city to study university, but I spent most of my early developmental years down South in Western Australia and mental health services, uh, far and a few between. So access to mental health services is something that's near and dear to my heart. And I thought that these two episodes, episode 57 and episode 58 with Lauren and Julie were quite inspirational in terms of like going and working rurally.

So, cause I'm the editor and I get to put all of this together. Um, we've got a short clip from Lauren where she'll be talking about challenges for clinicians working rurally. And then a short clip from Julie from the follow up episode where she discusses what she would say to someone who has never worked rurally.

And let's have a listen.

 (Clip)

[00:27:54] Bronwyn: Lauren, I'm interested in, we talked about this off air, but some of the challenges that you face working rurally, what comes to mind for you?

[00:28:02] Lauren: I think the biggest one is one we've already mentioned a little bit, which is where you're, you may be the only mental health provider in a very large geographical area. With that, I find there's the pressure to say yes to referrals, there's the real need to very closely look at your scope of competence and what you can work with, but also the example I gave before about 16 clients and seven hours of driving in two days. There's a pretty decent risk of burnout there if you do that too often, because that's a lot of hours in the driving time.

So I think that would be the biggest, the biggest challenges around being the, working rurally as maybe the only provider in town.

[00:28:51] Bronwyn: Mm. Do you get that sense of pressure that it's all on your shoulders?

[00:28:56] Lauren: I've definitely had that in the past, probably at the beginning of my internship, but I have a fantastic supervisor and she helped me to see that there is always someone else. Even though there may not be another private practitioner working in the area, there may be something through the public system, not often, but they could be, or there's always telehealth and not everyone likes to use telehealth, but We can't be everything to everyone all the time.

[00:29:29] Bronwyn: Julie, what would you say to practitioners who have never worked rurally? Like, is there something they're missing out on, or is there a fear about working rurally, which you've found is not true?

[00:29:40] Julie: I would say go, I would always encourage it. I, I don't think I realized it before I went, but definitely having been. Um, it was a great experience as a person, but as a psychologist as well, as I said, just a, um, a range of issues and, um, different things that came up in, in counselling that I had to deal with, especially around ethical stuff as well. I think that that really was such a big, uh, issue that presented all the time, um, when you're living remotely, but I think that, um, Yeah, it's worth it.

It's such a great experience. And I think it sets you up for the rest of your career and you can, I guess it gives you a bit of experience across everything. So yeah, just country life was great. So the town people are great, you know, um, being part of that community was great. And I think if you manage looking after yourself in terms of that self care, then you can find that balance to make it work for you.

 (End clips)

[00:30:34] Bronwyn: Okay, what's your reactions?

[00:30:37] Michael: It makes me miss the country.

[00:30:39] Bronwyn: Yeah? Aww.

[00:30:41] Michael: But it's great to know that there's people like Lauren and Julie who are working out there and doing fantastic stuff and serving the community needs and, you know, maybe one day we'll move back to the country.

[00:30:55] Bronwyn: I would love to. Talking to Julie and Lauren, I think I said it in the episodes, but I was genuinely like, I want to work rurally.

[00:31:03] Michael: And you can!

[00:31:03] Bronwyn: And I can. So maybe we can do that in the future. Um, yeah, just really great episodes. And I do want to thank, I couldn't remember if it was Lauren or Julie's supervisor who asked them to come on the podcast, but I remember. When I interviewed Lauren or Julie, or maybe both, they were like, yeah, my supervisor said you should do this.

Um, so thanks to that supervisor, uh, really great. And I really enjoyed speaking with Lauren and Julie. And like you said, Michael, it's so great to hear them doing such great work out there, um, yeah, where mental health services are few and far between.

[00:31:35] Michael: Yeah, and I hope this episode inspires, uh, a few other people maybe to consider, uh, you know, maybe not moving to the country forever, but even doing like a few years out there, it sounds like the wealth of experience that you get, by working out in those regions is like huge and just really does set you up for your future career.

Third Most Downloaded

[00:31:57] Bronwyn: Okay, now we're going to the last three categories and they are the third most listened, second most listened and the overall most listened.

So third most listened, it is, pausing for suspense, episode 68, working with kids and parents with Jordan Turner. Let's have a listen.

 (Clip)

[00:32:22] Bronwyn: What got you excited about working with kids?

[00:32:24] Jordan: I think, um, before I started working with kids, I did a lot of volunteer work visiting, um, Community mental health places like, um, like psych wards and things like that. And often I worked with the older population and some of the, uh, adult population, but what really got me excited was talking to the kids.

I kind of felt like going into psychology, I was really interested in working with kids because when I was a kid, I saw a psychologist and I just thought they were the best person ever. And I really wanted to help somebody, um, who was in my shoes when they were younger. So I guess that's what caused it?

[00:33:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that's incredible. I'm so glad that the psychologist experience was good for you because sometimes you hear from people that they're like, Nope, had a terrible time. So it sounds like you want to be the psychologist that you had when you were younger as well for these young people.

[00:33:14] Jordan: Yeah. And I think the, and it's not like the, I mean, he was a awesome psychologist, but none of what he said was particularly revolutionary. He was just a CBT guy, but just being heard and understood and made to feel like I wasn't crazy for thinking the things I, I was thinking, um, was just so validating. And I just loved that feeling. And I really wanted to like share that feeling with kids in, in my role. And that's where I ended up going, you know.

 (End Clip)

[00:33:42] Bronwyn: Okay, so every time I do a kids and parents episode or I talk about kids, it's a bit yuck for me because I don't like working with kids. Um, but when I listened to that clip and when I re listened to the episodes, it makes me feel inspired to work with kids. So it makes me hate the idea of that much less, which is nice. And I hope that listeners can do it. So this, this episode is definitely an example of one, which is like, I'm having to overcome my biases against a particular area for the benefit of listeners, because I think it's so important to talk about working with kids and how to work with parents as well.

What's your reaction?

[00:34:24] Michael: Yeah, it was a fantastic episode as well. And it was another one where it was hard to select a single clip to include here. Cause, um, yeah, Jordan just had so many tips and tricks for working with kids and building with rapport and how to work with parents as well.

It's like, you've got all these other additional challenges that, um, on top of the therapy that I think can put people off.

[00:34:47] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:34:48] Michael: But as Jordan outlines, like these are not insurmountable challenges.

[00:34:52] Bronwyn: Not at all. Yeah. And Jordan really exemplifies somebody who has overcome some challenges and working with kids and parents and feels quite confident in that area now. And you know, Jordan's just opened up their private practice as well. So I know, so it just, I think it just speaks to her passion and her expertise in these areas.

We wish you all the best, Jordan.

Second Most Downloaded

[00:35:12] Michael: Okay. Almost at the end now. Here we have our second most listened episode. And this is episode 71 titled Neurodiversity Affirming Schema Therapy with Dr. Emma DeCicco. Here we go.

 (Clip)

[00:35:27] Emma: Yes. And that's exactly right. And I think the example that I most often use, um, and I think it's relevant to lots of families, um, is one around, um, within the home. So, we get lots of families, parents coming through saying, young person won't do Um, and so, I will use the one of, um, you know, won't sit down for dinner time and dinner time is a nightmare and you know, it's just all over the place.

Um, and so, I start to go, okay, so who, whose expectation is this? Um, and it might be the parents and so then, okay, that's it. Why? What's that based on? What's your goal? What are you trying to achieve, um, by having that expectation there? And normally, it's something along the lines of, well, there was some research along the way that families who eat dinner together, like, are more connected and they, you know, children do better.

Like, okay. Was that based on neurodivergent families with multiple different sensory needs and, you know, food differences and all the rest of it? No? Well then, how's this working for you as a rule? Yeah. It's not? Okay. So, how do we meet the need? Because connection, absolutely valid. But dinner, when you've got the different sensory stuff, somebody's not hungry, somebody's upside down in the chair and you know, is that environment conducive to the connection?

No? Right, well then perhaps we need to throw the rule out and come up with some different ways of doing this. So, in my own household, we don't have dinner together. It is a disaster to even try. So, we find different ways to connect.

[00:37:03] Bronwyn: Excellent. And so I'm just reading, that's reflected in your poster, which is like, so for ND therapy goals, it's validate differences and diversity, integrate accommodations and modifications. It's values based, realistic and achievable. And it says prioritize workability. So that's just what you were describing there.

 (End clip)

[00:37:21] Bronwyn: So I love this episode. It's one of my favorites, I think because it combines two passion areas for me, which is neurodiversity and schema therapy. You would have heard in this episode that I was really excited and yeah, I think I was talking a lot cause I was really enjoying, and I just love Emma's model and her colleagues model.

And I still use it in practice. Like it honestly has changed the way I practice with schema therapy. I talk with clients a lot about ableist critics and I talk about how to reinterpret some of the schemas that people have, but with a neurodivergent lens. And I find that really exciting. I've really enjoyed that. And it, it was just a great informative episode.

[00:38:04] Michael: You referenced a poster?

[00:38:06] Bronwyn: Oh, yep. So Emma and her colleagues came up with the model of neurodiversity as affirming schema therapy and she has a poster that they've, I think they've presented at a conference, but they've got a Facebook group as well. If you go to that episode, episode 71, then you can see all the links to Emma and her colleagues work.

[00:38:23] Michael: And I just want a special shout out to the imagery of a child upside down in the chair. I think that's probably a relatable moment to many parents out there and yeah, I really enjoyed that one too.

Most Downloaded Episode

[00:38:36] Bronwyn: Okay, our last category is the overall most listened to episode.

[00:38:41] Michael: So this is the episode that's had the most downloads since we've started the podcast.

[00:38:47] Bronwyn: It is Episode 53, Treatment Planning 101 with Amanda Moses.

 (Clip)

[00:38:55] Bronwyn: Amanda, are there any other roadblocks in treatment planning that you wanted to get across to listeners?

[00:39:00] Amanda: I think the only other thing I would say is just thinking back to that idea about Overplanning and underplanning and really trying to find a balance with your treatment planning. I've definitely seen both extremes.

I've seen clinicians or psychologists that go in and maybe just wing it and see, see what happens this session and we'll just go with it. And I've seen psychologists who have, um, Very detailed plans, you know, maybe they've got a play by play of every little thing that they will, uh, do in that one session with the client and perhaps over planning.

And so I would say to you that it's, it's tricky when you're learning the ropes, but finding the balance is key. You don't want to not have a plan. You want to have a plan, um, but you don't want to over plan to the point that you are. Uh, stressing yourself and putting undue pressure on yourself, but also putting undue pressure on the process of therapy and what you can realistically achieve inside of a session.

 (End clip)

[00:40:01] Bronwyn: I'm really glad that we persisted with this episode. And the reason why I say that is because I tried to record this topic as a solo episode before I recorded it with Amanda. You remember that?

[00:40:12] Michael: I do. I think I edited most of it and came away suggesting that maybe we should revisit it again later.

[00:40:19] Bronwyn: Yeah. Because I made it way too complicated. Is that right?

[00:40:23] Michael: I think you didn't take Amanda's advice here. You overplanned.

[00:40:27] Bronwyn: I did, yeah, and so it was such a delight to record with Amanda because she has such a clear way of talking. Yeah. conceptualizing things and explaining it really clearly. And I thought this was a really important episode as well, because we're taught formulation, and then, so we get our formulation and we're like, okay, this person has depression or generalized anxiety disorder.

And then we're taught the therapy and we'll be like, okay, and I know cognitive behavioral therapy, but it's so hard to link that. The two. So how do we go from the formulation to what I actually do in sessions and treatment planning 101 was that link. So such an important episode. I can say why it's the overall most listened to and Amanda has done a fabulous job on heaps of episodes.

[00:41:07] Michael: Congratulations Amanda!

[00:41:09] Bronwyn: Congrats, Amanda. And thanks everyone for listening to that episode. And I'm glad, I hope you got something out of it.

[00:41:14] Michael: I hope so too, considering how many people listened

[00:41:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. Yeah.

[00:41:18] Michael: I hope it was satisfying.

[00:41:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, it would suck if they all listened to it and they're like, Oh, that was a waste of my life. Won't get that out of the back.

Yep. And that's our categories. That's pretty cool. Hey.

[00:41:29] Michael: Yeah, so again, this is just like a little bit of fun. Um, so if you, I guess, are listening and didn't hear your name called out, we still appreciate you lots.

[00:41:37] Bronwyn: 100 percent and I am thinking of Matthew in that because I'm like, Matthew's been such a wonderful guest on recent episodes. And so Matthew specifically, you're so valued and we love having you on the podcast and everybody go listen to Matthew's episodes. It was a contender for the listener story with just the authenticity, which is something that I really value.

Uh, like I didn't realize how much I valued it before I had people on like, Sarah and Matthew to talk about how important authenticity is in being a psychologist.

[00:42:07] Michael: It was also a close contender for a most fun episode as well, but I think we decided to go with something from the back catalog. So we weren't, uh, having too many episodes from the last few weeks.

[00:42:17] Bronwyn: Yes, exactly.

Bronwyn's reflections

[00:42:19] Bronwyn: So to finish off this episode, we're just going to have a few reflective questions on where we started out and where we're hoping to head in the future.

[00:42:27] Michael: Now that we've reached triple figures, 1 0 0. Looking back at your podcast journey what inspired you to start it in the first place and has a has the vision evolved since then?

[00:42:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think what inspired me to start in the first place, it's evolved a little bit. So I think I've talked about this on an earlier episode, but pretty much what inspired me to start out was that I saw a gap. So I love podcasts. I loved therapy podcasts, but when I was listening to therapy podcasts, they were mostly located in the U S and so I felt like the context was a bit removed from Australia.

And then I also noticed that many of the hosts. And we're also talking about How to Get Your Podcast Recorded and how to get a new Podcast. So we have a few questions in chat, so we'll get to those in a second. Um, um, Um, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about Client Connections, because we've heard so much of your podcast and, and that, you know, What have you been able to accomplish to get that success that you're dreaming of?

Um, I've done a really good job of getting my podcast recordings done. That was connected to the real problems we were facing and the issues we were facing as early career psychs that was informative, but also wasn't boring. Um, that was really important to me.

It was so important and it's still so important because I don't want podcasts to be snooze fests. And I always think that when you're having a good time listening to something, you take more info in anyway. So I feel like I take the same approach as a psychologist. Like I don't try and be like, Like here comes, like you're coming to Bronwyn's circus and here's my entertainment sort of thing. But it's like, I try and be engaging. I guess engaging is, is the better word.

[00:44:04] Michael: Yeah, yeah, there's plenty of podcasts out there I think where people listen to episodes to fall asleep to...

[00:44:08] Bronwyn: yeah.

[00:44:09] Michael: and we do not want this

[00:44:10] Bronwyn: This hopefully not one of those podcasts.

[00:44:12] Michael: Not one of those podcasts.

[00:44:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, and like the vision is still the same. Um, it's, it's those things. I'm really set on focusing on topics that are not talked about enough. So because I've had heaps of guest interest, which has been fantastic, we've had a few topics that I've just focused on, I guess, like day to day stuff that's talked about a lot, but with their guest's unique perspective, which has been fantastic, but I want to keep on going with episodes that, yeah, like just aren't talked about enough and topics that are a little bit taboo and yeah, I think, uh, another aspect of the vision that is still going is I really want it to be a connecting podcast where we can, where listeners can feel connected, like it helps them go through that tough time. I've always said like, I just kind of want it to be like a warm hug.

[00:45:02] Michael: It's a really nice way of putting it

[00:45:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:45:05] Michael: And what about personally as the podcast host? Have you learned anything about yourself or your own growth over the last two years of podcasting?

[00:45:16] Bronwyn: I think the biggest growth that I've noticed is when I came into doing the podcast, I had a hunch that I wasn't alone in my experience. And I knew that to some extent that that was true, but I think I wasn't fully convinced. And I think through doing the podcast, I've become fully convinced that my experiences, many of them, are common that I'm not alone and that we're connected by these common difficulties that we have.

And I've also become even more convinced that some of the difficulties that we face as early career psychs are not because individually there is something wrong with us, but because there are systems that make it hard for us to thrive. So for example, having unsustainable caseloads, having incredibly complex caseloads where we don't have enough support, that's not a fault of the individual, that's a systemic problem that we need to change.

And that's, I guess, um, reinforced my passion in that area as well.

[00:46:20] Michael: Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Then on a related note, do you feel like the podcast has met your goal of making a positive impact in the early career psychology community?

[00:46:30] Bronwyn: I mean, I hope hope so. so

[00:46:32] Michael: I mean, have you received like positive feedback about?

[00:46:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. And thank you to everyone who does send in the positive feedback. Sometimes it comes as a really opportunistic moments where it's like, I'm feeling down or, and yeah, and it's just reading that really lights me up and it makes me feel like this is important to keep going.

So I have received some lovely feedback. Like even in the past week, I received, two emails, and I just give you a little bit, but somebody emailed in saying, I just wanted to give you some feedback about the podcast. Your podcast has gotten me through and still getting me through some really tough times with my degree. Thank you for providing me with so much joy and comfort during these challenging times.

Like, you know, what a beautiful thing to say. Thank you for emailing that in. And I'm so glad that the podcast has had that impact and just another one from this week. Um, so someone emailed in saying I'm in the very early stages of setting up a private practice. Your podcasts have provided the most insight into a lot of really important specifics, which are typically glossed over and discounted as they aren't the big picture things. So thank you.

So yeah, it's like, I love that I get the connection, that I'm helping people through tough times. And that, you know, guests are as well. And then we're also giving them the information because, you know, even listening back to that clip from Annie, it's like early career psychs, we don't know. We don't know stuff. Like we need that guidance. And that's something that's always frustrated me as an early career psych.

It's like, I just need the knowledge. I, like, sometimes I don't need to reflect on why I'm asking a question. Sometimes I just need the question answered, you know?

[00:48:08] Michael: So I'm getting the sense that the podcast is not going anywhere anytime soon.

[00:48:13] Bronwyn: It's not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm really passionate about it. I really love doing it. Thank you so much for the feedback. Um, I'm really grateful for it. It's, it's your podcast. I, I do it for you and I'm really glad that we can have this space where we talk about these important topics.

[00:48:32] Michael: So last thing, looking forward, are there some upcoming, topics that you're going to talk about or areas that you feel like are unrepresented still that you want to bring some attention to?

[00:48:43] Bronwyn: There sure are. Um, and I'm really excited. One of the things that I'm wanting to do a few more episodes on is showcasing the diversity of psychological practice. So I really want to talk to a community psychologist, a sports psychologist, an organizational psychologist, and just hear about their different perspectives.

Another thing that I'm really passionate about is, um, I really want to do an episode where we talk to a psychologist who is an Indigenous First Nations person and hear their perspective on being an Indigenous psychologist and how we can support them as our peer and what needs to change about psychology to make it culturally responsive. So really excited about that.

And then just some of the often not talked about topics, like how to manage following the death of a client. Keeping up with the research literature. How do you do that practically? Surviving bad supervision. How to retain clients. What else is there other than Medicare, because quite often psychs are like, okay, I'll go into private practice and I'll do Medicare. But you know, there's other schemes like there's DVA, there's TAC, there's Victim services. What is out there?

So yeah, I have no shortage of topics currently in my topic idea list. I've got 36 things, um, and it's growing all the time. So yeah, there's lots of things to cover still.

[00:50:03] Michael: And that's just what's on our list. So if you've got suggestions for topics, definitely send them in. We want to hear about them.

[00:50:10] Bronwyn: Yep, they do get added. They do get prioritized . And I am seeking, I'm always seeking guests as well. So if you or someone, you know, want to come on the podcast, anyone is invited. Nobody is off limits and you don't have to be perfect as well. I've heard a few listeners be like, I don't feel like I'm good enough to come on. You don't have to be good enough. Shut up. You're good enough as you are. Um, you're more than welcome to come on and share a listener story. I think every perspective is valuable.

[00:50:38] Michael: Yep, I know we've had some amazing guests and they can sometimes feel like, oh, I'm not, I don't have like a story that can match like what's been on the podcast before, but like we will make it work. it's just like a 10 minute story or something, we will slap it together with something else and we'll work around it because every voice is important.

[00:50:55] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And you've got a story I can, I'll pull it out.

So the last section and arguably the most important section of this episode is the thank yous.

So I want to give a huge thank you to all the guests who have come onto the podcast. None of the guests receive payment. It's all volunteer and they're all like, you know, experts in the area. And it's incredibly valuable to hear their perspective. So a genuine heartfelt thank you to all the guests who spend their time coming on the podcast, often going outside their comfort zone. Many of them haven't done a podcast before, and their willingness to communicate has just been so inspiring and their honesty and vulnerability. I've really appreciated it. Thank you for putting your trust in the podcast.

Next, I would like to thank the supporters. So that's you, dear listener. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. I'm glad it has been a companion for you. Thank you to anyone who has joined the Patreon. I know I'm not great at keeping the Patreon community. Social media is not my top skill, but thank you for joining. It genuinely does make a difference. And to all the people who have bought me an online coffee, again, genuinely does make a difference.

So for the majority of this podcast, we haven't received any funds to fund it. This has been a volunteer endeavor for me and for my partner, michael as well. So all of that really does cover the podcast costs, which are websites, subscriptions, tech equipment, materials, I guess our labor as well publishing the podcast, there's a host that costs money every month.

So thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

[00:52:38] Michael: And I think , you know, money is helpful and very important, but more valuable I would say is that it's a big vote of confidence in the work we're doing. And every time we see like, Oh, there's a new Patreon subscriber, it's

[00:52:51] Bronwyn: really excited.

[00:52:52] Michael: wow, like, you know, what we're putting out there is is valued.

[00:52:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's really, yeah, yeah.

[00:53:00] Michael: So we really appreciate it.

[00:53:01] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I'd like to thank the sponsors as well, who have sponsored us in the past, it has been such a vote of confidence as well to have their support. And I would like to thank everyone who has shared an episode with a colleague, with a supervisee.

Sharing episodes is the greatest way to get more listeners and to make sure that the podcast spreads. So thank you. Keep doing that. Thanks to everybody who has left a review, who has sent me an email. I read them all and I think about them. Sometimes they take me a while to get back to, but if I take a while to get back to them, it's because I'm thinking, it's thinking time.

 If you'd like to pop a review or a five star rating, it really helps us in the ranking, which again, gets us into more ears. And so thanks so much. And yeah, thanks for the past 100 episodes. It's been a labor of love. I've really enjoyed doing it. Um, how have you felt about doing it, hun?

[00:53:55] Michael: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. It's a little bit different to my normal research work, so it's a nice change of pace. And thank you, Bronwyn, for letting me just, wiggle my way in and I don't think it was your original plan for me to be that do the editing work But I just stuck my hand up and you let me do it.

[00:54:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean, it's been incredibly helpful. So thank you to Michael. Michael has edited all of the episodes. He makes them sound extra really good. So he cuts out all my ums and ahs. I might sound flawless, but I can assure you that there are many sentences that I say where I do this thing where I say, start a sentence in one way. And then I, my brain switches to like another sentence halfway through. It's endlessly annoying to Michael. Um, but I do like weird verbal stuff like that and it all gets edited out for your listening pleasure.

[00:54:46] Michael: That's okay, I enjoy doing it.

[00:54:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. And yeah, it makes the podcast sound great.

So really appreciative.

[00:54:52] Michael: So that's it for the first 100 episodes and here's to another 100.

[00:54:58] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:54:59] Michael: Gosh, that seems kind of scary to be starting from one again.

[00:55:02] Bronwyn: It does, it does seem a bit scary, but thanks to everybody who's joined us along the way and I hope you enjoyed this episode and thanks for sticking around.

[00:55:11] Michael: And we'll see you next week for another regular episode.

[00:55:13] Bronwyn: See you next week. Bye everyone.

Sound effects by Pixabay & Mikhail from Pixabay